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Jerry Forsyth
01-15-2014, 12:18 PM
Folks,

If anyone would like to get in on the action at Derby by being a stake-horse the opportunity is there. With the dearth of pool ahead players are looking to save on expenses any way possible. If you would like to stake a player at DCC please just post here or PM me with the following info:

1) What player or players would be of interest for you to stake?
2) What do you offer them? A) Hotel room B) Entry Fee C) Travel Expense D) ALL of this.
3) What do you want in return? For instance, do you want to stake a player to all of his expenses in exchange for 40% of his winnings in the event? That sort of thing. Just let me know the risk you are willing to take and what reward you wish for taking that risk.

I will contact the player and let them examine your answer and reply. Neither AZBilliards nor myself will expect or accept a fee for this service. It is free, just an opportunity for a willing buyer to meet a willing seller in an open marketplace.

PM me.

MahnaMahna
01-15-2014, 01:01 PM
Jerry,

Several players have come on here over the years and asked to be staked and were successful. Is there a specific reason why you are choosing to do this as opposed to telling them to get on here themselves?

I'm one of the people putting Bartram in the Bigfoot, he made a thread, people responded, and he is good to go.

Just curious.

JumpinJoe
01-15-2014, 01:08 PM
And Larry NEVEL we put in last years U.S.Bar Table Open from on here when he came and asked.

Like 4 people put in. All went smooth. Larry did exactly as he promised.
I think if they are interested they should come on and ask, don't be ashamed.

Jerry Forsyth
01-15-2014, 01:09 PM
Because I got this request from the other side of the equation. A stakehorse told me he has friends who might be interested in a sort of bidding process. And they are not that picky about which player. They know the players and know the odds of course so I am sure they would be willing to invest more in Efren Reyes or Bustamante or Archer than they would in someone who has never won a major.

He just wants me to get the conversation started and see where it goes. And since I see no harm in it I am also curious. Plus, some players would be embarrassed to come on here and ask for a stake as they fear being accused of looking for 'charity'. This way I can keep the whole deal confidential if that is what the parties wish or we can open someone up for bidding.

It is just something I felt AZB could do that could help some folks and I see no way it can harm anyone.

Nostroke
01-15-2014, 01:20 PM
Id pay the entry fee/buyback for a few guys in various events for perhaps 15-20%? Not getting into the expenses thing. Someone like Shane or Alex of course, i could work on less of a margin but im sure they aren't in the group asking.

JOSEPHS1
01-15-2014, 01:35 PM
Folks,

If anyone would like to get in on the action at Derby by being a stake-horse the opportunity is there. With the dearth of pool ahead players are looking to save on expenses any way possible. If you would like to stake a player at DCC please just post here or PM me with the following info:

1) What player or players would be of interest for you to stake?
2) What do you offer them? A) Hotel room B) Entry Fee C) Travel Expense D) ALL of this.
3) What do you want in return? For instance, do you want to stake a player to all of his expenses in exchange for 40% of his winnings in the event? That sort of thing. Just let me know the risk you are willing to take and what reward you wish for taking that risk.

I will contact the player and let them examine your answer and reply. Neither AZBilliards nor myself will expect or accept a fee for this service. It is free, just an opportunity for a willing buyer to meet a willing seller in an open marketplace.

PM me.
Please call me...Very Interested
Joseph : 216-337-8002
Thank You

CJ Wiley
01-15-2014, 01:37 PM
Because I got this request from the other side of the equation. A stakehorse told me he has friends who might be interested in a sort of bidding process. And they are not that picky about which player. They know the players and know the odds of course so I am sure they would be willing to invest more in Efren Reyes or Bustamante or Archer than they would in someone who has never won a major.

He just wants me to get the conversation started and see where it goes. And since I see no harm in it I am also curious. Plus, some players would be embarrassed to come on here and ask for a stake as they fear being accused of looking for 'charity'. This way I can keep the whole deal confidential if that is what the parties wish or we can open someone up for bidding.

It is just something I felt AZB could do that could help some folks and I see no way it can harm anyone.

This is an ideal way of achieving a positive outcome. The problem I've seen in the past is players that do ask for sponsorship end up getting analyzed on issues other than their playing record/history......this ends up being an unnecessary "character review".

SLIM
01-15-2014, 02:26 PM
Everyone just needs to be careful.
I would think that most backers have some personal knowledge of the guys they are backing.
Some well meaning people could get into some situations that they do not really understand.

Good luck with this, if it takes off.

SLIM

Joe T
01-15-2014, 04:01 PM
Not wanting to hijack the thread Jer (well maybe just alil ;) but it is the perfect time to ask those players that are wanting to get staked to help us build a program that will help them reduce their expenses and need for backing at such events. Any player that is even close to good enough to be backed at national events really should ask their local club to become part of the American Rotation Championship Series which helps players save on expenses.

Our first national event was the day before the US Open right there in VA. We only had 8 players qualify but they were all guaranteed the $1k before they hit a ball which definitely helped with their Open expenses. This time we have 10 players qualified, the finals are right at DCC and I know ALL 10 guys are happy to be guaranteed that expense money for this trip.

What these players did to qualify was play 7 matches of rotation locally, within a 7 week time frame, at the cost of $25 per match. They then finished in the top 4 of the 8 players in their room and went on to a 4-16 player playoff where half the field won some money but the top 1 or 2 players earned spots at these national events. Yes they could have lost $175 total and if that's a problem, which sometime it is, that is a very good time to get a stakehorse, low risk and could get them to a national event.

I know players do not like asking for help, this Series could end up helping a lot of them in the long run. Pretty much all they have to do is play the 7 matches of POOL, pay the $175 all over the course of 7 weeks (very flexible) and win there way there.

A good stakehorse may even round up 4-8 players at their local club and stake all 8 for the same or less than what it is going to cost to stake 1 player at a typical national event?

dabarbr
01-15-2014, 06:29 PM
Sadly I'm not putting my $ towards staking or Fundraisers any more.

Can you tell us more?

MahnaMahna
01-15-2014, 07:02 PM
Can you tell us more?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=336851

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=348145

Celtic
01-15-2014, 07:46 PM
Are you willing to deal with/cover if/when a stakehorse gets stiffed by a player? You are kind of putting yourself right in the middle of something that could go very far south very quickly.

Johnny Archer himself could not even deliver goods as promised that people bought and paid for in an auction. At this point there are very few players I would even trust to give the horse the return on their investment.

NYC cue dude
01-15-2014, 08:40 PM
I can't tell you how disgusted I am in reading this thread. That there's a need for it, among professional players, is so terribly disheartening.

The best hot dog vendors in the world are in NYC. The best ones are making $500K per year. The best skilled, at anything, shouldn't have to have "fans" pay their way.

John Brumback
01-15-2014, 09:05 PM
I can't tell you how disgusted I am in reading this thread. That there's a need for it, among professional players, is so terribly disheartening.

The best hot dog vendors in the world are in NYC. The best ones are making $500K per year. The best skilled, at anything, shouldn't have to have "fans" pay their way.

That's what I was thinking when I read this. Time for me to go vomit. John B.

JumpinJoe
01-15-2014, 10:20 PM
I've staked a handful of people not many. And in no way would I do it like this. I seen it in poker, where a guy could not even afford to cash in he had so many stakers once. He was already winner.

Stake only those you know and you feel you can completely trust sending to an event with 3-4k of your cash right near/at a casino.

I completely agree with mr. Brumback

Is AZB guaranteeing whatever this guy(player) makes that the said stake horses get their full return? Is AZB putting their neck on the line and guaranteeing this? Since most do not personally know the players at all, only know of them.

What happens the first time AZB brokers a behind the scene deal, then the player blows the stake horses money that's suppose to be returned?

Leadcask
01-15-2014, 10:23 PM
I would definitely stake a player in upcoming majors in the future.

Travel/Hotel/Per Diem covered....

What I would want in return.... 40% of earnings.

Who would I pick.... a hungry up and comer. Say someone who won the amateur
title at the SBX. That's a tough win. Any of the top four finishers in that event would be good choices imho.

I think it would be great if AZB came up with a format for those interested in backing players. Perhaps the format would offer community members a chance to bid on players who wish to participate.

Sounds like fun. Better than me trying to participate in a major and invest the money in myself. I don't like my odds.

2andOUT
01-15-2014, 10:39 PM
I can't tell you how disgusted I am in reading this thread. That there's a need for it, among professional players, is so terribly disheartening.

The best hot dog vendors in the world are in NYC. The best ones are making $500K per year. The best skilled, at anything, shouldn't have to have "fans" pay their way.

I knew a hot dog vendor. they work hard. Most pool players don't want to work hard.

jmurphy
01-15-2014, 10:44 PM
Folks,

If anyone would like to get in on the action at Derby by being a stake-horse the opportunity is there. With the dearth of pool ahead players are looking to save on expenses any way possible. If you would like to stake a player at DCC please just post here or PM me with the following info:

1) What player or players would be of interest for you to stake?
2) What do you offer them? A) Hotel room B) Entry Fee C) Travel Expense D) ALL of this.
3) What do you want in return? For instance, do you want to stake a player to all of his expenses in exchange for 40% of his winnings in the event? That sort of thing. Just let me know the risk you are willing to take and what reward you wish for taking that risk.

I will contact the player and let them examine your answer and reply. Neither AZBilliards nor myself will expect or accept a fee for this service. It is free, just an opportunity for a willing buyer to meet a willing seller in an open marketplace.

PM me.

Assuming your player cashes
The Backer would recoup ALL expenses off the top and split the white meat 50/50
Just curious about how it's done........

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 01:36 AM
you're kidding, right?

i'd rather PAY them $1000 to play KK9.

better ROI for me.

JAM
01-16-2014, 03:23 AM
40 percent is EXTREMELY generous. It was not so long ago that Keith was offered 20 percent to dance like a monkey while being filmed and the backer would get 80 percent. :eek:

It was insulting. :mad:

I do understand the purpose of the thread. Pool players, the ones who do it full-time, are broke dogs.:frown:

Yeah, I know, I know. They can flip burgers at McDonald's or sell hot dogs in the Big Apple. :rolleyes:

I think that to attend the DCC, especially if you stay the entire week, it takes money to get there. I don't see anything wrong with the thread at all.

If a player were to come on here, like C.J. said, they would be put under a microscope by this forum. The forum would come to the conclusion that he's a dump artist, can't run two games in a row, got beat by Joe Blow, and is 10 percent Neanderthal. And then there's infamous James Walden thread. :embarrassed2:

As well, I am sure Greg Sullivan is hoping to get as many in attendance as possible. This is the pool mecca of the year for some. There's the One Pocket Hall of Fame Banquet, pool vendors, mini tournaments, big tournaments, and no mosquitoes in January. :grin-square:

Kickin' Chicken
01-16-2014, 04:16 AM
This is an interesting concept that I, personally, don't like.

Getting into a blind bidding war for the chance to stake (gamble on / invest in) a player is wholly unappealing to me.

I'd be happy to stake certain players, but not in this format.

It appears some would, though. :wink:

best,
brian kc

SJDinPHX
01-16-2014, 04:23 AM
Plus, some players would be embarrassed to come on here and ask for a stake as they fear being accused of looking for 'charity'. This way I can keep the whole deal confidential if that is what the parties wish or we can open someone up for bidding.

It is just something I felt AZB could do that could help some folks and I see no way it can harm anyone.

I applaud you for taking the initiative, Jerry..I don't understand all the negativity being displayed here. We (players and horses) are all big boys, and should know who we want to deal with, and who we'd rather not. If its kept on a somewhat private level, hopefully all the posting of needless opinions, (and knocking) would be held to a minimum !

The biggest plus, in your offering this service, is that a very large percentage of the player's who could be involved, are either computer illiterate, or for whatever reason, don't post here anyway ! The regular forum members could/should advise these players, as to what is now available.

It is a thankless task for you to undertake, and I darn sure don't see any harm in it either ! :thumbup:

Jerry Forsyth
01-16-2014, 05:39 AM
First, this is just an idea to get a willing buyer and a willing seller together. Nothing more. And no, AZB is in no way responsible if either the buyer or seller gets burned as we are not making anything off of this and so have no reason to bear responsibility.

Next, this is obviously not for everybody, but I have five stakehorses now that did not exist before yesterday. I have told all of them that I personally would not do this unless I was at the DCC myself or knew the staked player personally. Of course I would not just mail money off to a stranger. Unless the stranger is the IRS.

To all of you who dislike this program, please feel free to come up with an idea of your own and post it here. Whether you like it or not pro pool players at the moment need financial assistance and we are just trying to help. So, chill!

Fast Lenny
01-16-2014, 05:42 AM
First, this is just an idea to get a willing buyer and a willing seller together. Nothing more. And no, AZB is in no way responsible if either the buyer or seller gets burned as we are not making anything off of this and so have no reason to bear responsibility.

Next, this is obviously not for everybody, but I have five stakehorses now that did not exist before yesterday. I have told all of them that I personally would not do this unless I was at the DCC myself or knew the staked player personally. Of course I would not just mail money off to a stranger. Unless the stranger is the IRS.

To all of you who dislike this program, please feel free to come up with an idea of your own and post it here. Whether you like it or not pro pool players at the moment need financial assistance and we are just trying to help. So, chill!
I appreciate your efforts Jerry. There are certainly many players out there who could use some help.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 06:56 AM
40 percent is EXTREMELY generous. It was not so long ago that Keith was offered 20 percent to dance like a monkey while being filmed and the backer would get 80 percent. :eek:

It was insulting. :mad:

I do understand the purpose of the thread. Pool players, the ones who do it full-time, are broke dogs.:frown:

Yeah, I know, I know. They can flip burgers at McDonald's or sell hot dogs in the Big Apple. :rolleyes:

I think that to attend the DCC, especially if you stay the entire week, it takes money to get there. I don't see anything wrong with the thread at all.

If a player were to come on here, like C.J. said, they would be put under a microscope by this forum. The forum would come to the conclusion that he's a dump artist, can't run two games in a row, got beat by Joe Blow, and is 10 percent Neanderthal. And then there's infamous James Walden thread. :embarrassed2:

As well, I am sure Greg Sullivan is hoping to get as many in attendance as possible. This is the pool mecca of the year for some. There's the One Pocket Hall of Fame Banquet, pool vendors, mini tournaments, big tournaments, and no mosquitoes in January. :grin-square:

So why don't the players get a job flipping burgers? I never understood why they don't have jobs if pool payed more I could see it but it doesn't. There are Olympic athletes that have jobs and compete at very high levels why can't pool players?


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SCCues
01-16-2014, 07:16 AM
I can't tell you how disgusted I am in reading this thread. That there's a need for it, among professional players, is so terribly disheartening.

The best hot dog vendors in the world are in NYC. The best ones are making $500K per year. The best skilled, at anything, shouldn't have to have "fans" pay their way.
I hear what you are saying and I'm sad that this is the state of Pro Pool. In any other sport I can think of Pro Players don't need their fans to pay expenses. I hope it changes one day soon.

JAM
01-16-2014, 07:24 AM
So why don't the players get a job flipping burgers? I never understood why they don't have jobs if pool payed more I could see it but it doesn't. There are Olympic athletes that have jobs and compete at very high levels why can't pool players?


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Well, I guess if they got a job flipping burgers, then there soon would be no pro players left in the existing lot of American professional pool players. In order to compete at a high level, a professional pool player must hit THOUSANDS of balls every single day to keep in stroke. Unfortunately, the traditional 9-to-5 job, such as McDonald's, doesn't afford them enough time to keep their skills up shooting pool.

As well, most traditional employers, like McDonald's, will not give an employee time off several times a month to compete in various tournaments around the country, especially the week-long events like DCC.

When you speak of Olympic athletes, let's get real about this. Those Olympic athletes have sponsors (stakehorses), and believe it or not, most of them have their own specialty industry organization looking out for their interests. We used to have that with the BCA, but the BCA has orphaned professional pool from its existence. The industry members of the BCA prefer to get fat and watch professional pool die a slow and ugly death.

So there you have it. Next? :smile:

Kickin' Chicken
01-16-2014, 07:36 AM
how about a separate forum (maybe a sub-forum of wanted / for sale) where players in need could match up with stakehorses who are interested in them. Open, transparent, like, for instance:

hello, I'm Joe Blow, I just won the XYZ State Amateur 9 Ball Championship and I'd love a shot at the ZYX Tourney coming up but need help with getting there and the entry fee. If someone can help I will get proper rest, play my hardest, and will give you, my backer, xx% of whatever I win.

or

hello, this is Joe Famous player and I am looking for anyone interested in staking me for the upcoming YXY Event where I think I have a great chance at taking it down. I have a place to stay there and can cover my meals, etc., but could use a hand with the travel ($xxx) and the $xxx entry fee. In return I am willing to do a XXyou/XXme split on all that I win.

or

hello, I am interested in staking one or two players in the upcoming US Open 9 ball in Chesapeake, VA. Upper to top tier pros are who I am after and am willing to cover their travel and entry fee. In exchange I will want XX% of what you win at the event.

maybe even have a rating system like iTrader specific to the members using this service. Maybe iStaker. :wink:

All of the business doesn't necessarily have to be out in the open, that's certainly optional.

An ad could simply read:

I'm looking for a backer for the upcoming ZZZ Tourney. Anyone interested, please contact me so we can discuss details and see if we can become partners.

best,
brian kc

decent dennis
01-16-2014, 07:47 AM
Well, I guess if they got a job flipping burgers, then there soon would be no pro players left in the existing lot of American professional pool players. In order to compete at a high level, a professional pool player must hit THOUSANDS of balls every single day to keep in stroke. Unfortunately, the traditional 9-to-5 job, such as McDonald's, doesn't afford them enough time to keep their skills up shooting pool.

As well, most traditional employers, like McDonald's, will not give an employee time off several times a month to compete in various tournaments around the country, especially the week-long events like DCC.

When you speak of Olympic athletes, let's get real about this. Those Olympic athletes have sponsors (stakehorses), and believe it or not, most of them have their own specialty industry organization looking out for their interests. We used to have that with the BCA, but the BCA has orphaned professional pool from its existence. The industry members of the BCA prefer to get fat and watch professional pool die a slow and ugly death.

So there you have it. Next? :smile:

Next. Harry Connic Jr, plastic surgery. Yes or no.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 07:56 AM
Well, I guess if they got a job flipping burgers, then there soon would be no pro players left in the existing lot of American professional pool players. In order to compete at a high level, a professional pool player must hit THOUSANDS of balls every single day to keep in stroke. Unfortunately, the traditional 9-to-5 job, such as McDonald's, doesn't afford them enough time to keep their skills up shooting pool.

As well, most traditional employers, like McDonald's, will not give an employee time off several times a month to compete in various tournaments around the country, especially the week-long events like DCC.

When you speak of Olympic athletes, let's get real about this. Those Olympic athletes have sponsors (stakehorses), and believe it or not, most of them have their own specialty industry organization looking out for their interests. We used to have that with the BCA, but the BCA has orphaned professional pool from its existence. The industry members of the BCA prefer to get fat and watch professional pool die a slow and ugly death.

So there you have it. Next? :smile:

What's the point of hitting thousands of balls as you say if you can't afford to go anywhere and play? Those Olympians do have sponsors but they still have full time jobs.


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Joe T
01-16-2014, 08:05 AM
To all of you who dislike this program, please feel free to come up with an idea of your own and post it here. Whether you like it or not pro pool players at the moment need financial assistance and we are just trying to help. So, chill!

I don't dislike the program and hope some players do get help. And I too applaud your effort.

We did come up with and post an idea that I hope you'll suggest to the players that are looking to get staked. It really is a chance for them to help themselves and pool at the same time.

JAM
01-16-2014, 08:09 AM
What's the point of hitting thousands of balls as you say if you can't afford to go anywhere and play? Those Olympians do have sponsors but they still have full time jobs.


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You should join the BCA. I think your philosophy would complement the members there. :smile:

Let's just do away with the professional pool world. Then we can all live happily ever after, right?

Unless you walk in the shoes of a professional player, don't knock them, because you don't totally understand what it's all about. You are on the outside looking in. :)

West Point 1987
01-16-2014, 08:14 AM
Well, I guess if they got a job flipping burgers, then there soon would be no pro players left in the existing lot of American professional pool players. In order to compete at a high level, a professional pool player must hit THOUSANDS of balls every single day to keep in stroke. Unfortunately, the traditional 9-to-5 job, such as McDonald's, doesn't afford them enough time to keep their skills up shooting pool.

As well, most traditional employers, like McDonald's, will not give an employee time off several times a month to compete in various tournaments around the country, especially the week-long events like DCC.

When you speak of Olympic athletes, let's get real about this. Those Olympic athletes have sponsors (stakehorses), and believe it or not, most of them have their own specialty industry organization looking out for their interests. We used to have that with the BCA, but the BCA has orphaned professional pool from its existence. The industry members of the BCA prefer to get fat and watch professional pool die a slow and ugly death.

So there you have it. Next? :smile:

Jen, I gotta disagree...there have been a great number of players that had day jobs yet still managed to have very successful pool careers...Irving Crane sold cars full time and practiced during his lunch hour and after work, for example. Joe Balsis was a butcher... Let's not get carried away here...a talented pro player can succeed while being gainfully employed, they just have to carve out the time. I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of pro golfers that don't have big sponsors and have to pay the bills from elsewhere. What about pro bowlers? I'd be shocked if more than a few make all their money on the lanes. I've personally known Olympic athletes (especially in sports like archery and shooting, but even boxing) that didn't have big time sponsors or the opportunity to do nothing but train for months on end until they actually made the Olympic team. They had day jobs or were full time college students. So it can be done.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 08:16 AM
You should join the BCA. I think your philosophy would complement the members there. :smile:

Let's just do away with the professional pool world. Then we can all live happily ever after, right?

Unless you walk in the shoes of a professional player, don't knock them, because you don't totally understand what it's all about. You are on the outside looking in. :)

who is knocking who I asked why they cant get a job when pool doesnt allow them to make a living and travel to the tournaments that they want to play in. I wish pros made millions a year it would be great for the game at all levels but the truth is they dont.

JAM
01-16-2014, 08:30 AM
Jen, I gotta disagree...there have been a great number of players that had day jobs yet still managed to have very successful pool careers...Irving Crane sold cars full time and practiced during his lunch hour and after work, for example. Joe Balsis was a butcher... Let's not get carried away here...a talented pro player can succeed while being gainfully employed, they just have to carve out the time. I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of pro golfers that don't have big sponsors and have to pay the bills from elsewhere. What about pro bowlers? I'd be shocked if more than a few make all their money on the lanes. I've personally known Olympic athletes (especially in sports like archery and shooting, but even boxing) that didn't have big time sponsors or the opportunity to do nothing but train for months on end until they actually made the Olympic team. They had day jobs or were full time college students. So it can be done.

Think about what the cost of living was when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis were hitting 'em.

Think about what the tournament payouts were when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis was hitting them.

Now fast-forward to today. What are the tournament payouts today? What is the cost of living today compared to the '50s and '60s?

To compare an American professional pool player to an Olympic athlete is ridiculous. Two different animals. American professional pool players are outcasts in the eyes of the American pool culture. The Olympic athletes are valued and cherished by the American Olympic culture.

TATE
01-16-2014, 08:35 AM
Sadly I'm not putting my $ towards staking or Fundraisers any more.

Disclaimer: Prizes may vary slightly from the photo.

(ps. in reality that jersey really did suck and you have a right to be disappointed).

Photo:Left Reality: Right (same girl) (really)

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 08:36 AM
Think about what the cost of living was when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis were hitting 'em.

Think about what the tournament payouts were when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis was hitting them.

Now fast-forward to today. What are the tournament payouts today? What is the cost of living today compared to the '50s and '60s?

To compare an American professional pool player to an Olympic athlete is ridiculous. Two different animals. American professional pool players are outcasts in the eyes of the American pool culture. The Olympic athletes are valued and cherished by the American Olympic culture.

The comparison to Olympians is that they can hold jobs and compete at the highest level in their sports.
I hope all the players find their way to the DCC this year and sorry Jerry for detouring this thread.

JAM
01-16-2014, 08:40 AM
The comparison to Olympians is that they can hold jobs and compete at the highest level in their sports.
I hope all the players find their way to the DCC this year and sorry Jerry for detouring this thread.

The comparison is ridiculous. I have never heard of an Olympian athlete flipping burgers or selling hot dogs. Gimme a break.

West Point 1987
01-16-2014, 08:45 AM
Think about what the cost of living was when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis were hitting 'em.

Think about what the tournament payouts were when Irving Crane and Joe Balsis was hitting them.

Now fast-forward to today. What are the tournament payouts today? What is the cost of living today compared to the '50s and '60s?

To compare an American professional pool player to an Olympic athlete is ridiculous. Two different animals. American professional pool players are outcasts in the eyes of the American pool culture. The Olympic athletes are valued and cherished by the American Olympic culture.

Good points...but I still maintain that regardless of the payout/public support (which I am totally with you on), my point was that excellence in a sport and a separate job are not incompatible. It's always been done, and still can be. I do agree that a full time job can make meaningful participation in the truly good paying events difficult (probably too difficult for many) because of the distances and time off required. There too far apart, too few and require a week off from work to participate in. That's a different problem that isn't solved by being staked and I hope things change to get more promoters and industry involvement in getting more big events out there. Unfortunately, it looks like we're in a shrinking market.

If I were SVB, I'd have moved to Japan 10 years ago. Sometimes a career forces you to move to where the work is...:(

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 08:53 AM
The comparison is ridiculous. I have never heard of an Olympian athlete flipping burgers or selling hot dogs. Gimme a break.

A job is a job it doesnt matter what it is,you are foolish to keep referring to flipping burgers or selling hot dogs. The Olympians that I know that have jobs have good ones because they could get ones and still practice and compete at the top of their sports.

Johnnyt
01-16-2014, 09:12 AM
It has been proven many times that you can be a top level pro and have a FULL time job. Ask pros how many hours a day they practice now and most will say about an average of 2 hours a day if they are honest. Most that gamble get about an average of maybe 2 good money games a week...maybe. That leaves a hell of a lot of down time. Most American pros started playing and gambling at a very young age while they lived at home and had no rent, food, or most anything else to worry about cost of living wise. When they first started getting good the profitable match-ups were very easy to come by, but as they got better and their name and game clocked, it became hard to get the nuts anymore. So they had no reason to work in the beginning because they were making easy money at doing something they enjoyed. Next come the backers. Still no need for a job yet. But when you get to the point of just even games or always chasing the nuts it's time to get a job. IMO most are just lazy.

I have stakes or helped stake many a pro player, both male and female. Some of the last few that came on here looking for a stake went pretty sour for me, but I would still stake the right person in the right game/tournament. It's called gambling. Johnnyt

MahnaMahna
01-16-2014, 09:32 AM
The comparison is ridiculous. I have never heard of an Olympian athlete flipping burgers or selling hot dogs. Gimme a break.


There are many other things you would never hear about Olympic athletes doing that are the norm in pool.

Kickin' Chicken
01-16-2014, 09:34 AM
fwiw; there is a very successful hotdog vendor who has already posted a comment in this thread.

there are lots of choices we make in our lives and with each choice comes a result or consequence. Some good, some bad, and some neutral.

nothing is owed to us in this world - it's up to us to position ourselves how we want, again, choices.

If you have managed to become really good with a pool cue then you have more choices to make.

some may include:

if I am talented enough at playing pool, can I also be enterprising enough for it to become a good and dependable income stream? One must also consider two other important points when seriously thinking to go forward with this plan:

1. There are no health benefits or 401k, pensions, etc., for pool players.

2. It appears that maybe only the top 5 players in the US are making real money. And, of those scant few, are *any* of them really rolling in the dough?

then being honest with yourself about what your true chances are to become an elite top-5 player.

Unfortunately, this isn't golf where the guy who finishes in 32nd place on Sunday gets a $25k check.

Our sport is poor - the rewards are few and far between.

It's tough action and so to pursue it in a very serious and meaningful way, one must be resourceful.

It does usually come down to the *choice* of either supporting your pool passion by getting a job (whatever it is really doesn't matter as long as it pays your bills) or getting into action (tough racket) or looking to others to help finance *your dream*. of being a pool player.

As outrageous as it may sound to some, there's an azer whose name escapes me at this very moment who has won the collegiate pool championship two years in a row.

I suspect that he could put a beat down on many, if not most of the guys who are typically looking to others to subsidize their dream. And he's enjoying his pool successes while getting a college education. :thumbup: :cool: Total respect to him!

People need to think long and hard before trying to climb the pool ladder.

I wish our sport was richer.

EDIT: just did a quick search and I believe the college champ I referred to is Ray Linares.

best,
brian kc

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 09:42 AM
opps---------sorry

shanesinnott
01-16-2014, 09:42 AM
As outrageous as it may sound to some, there's even an azer whose name escapes me at this very moment who has won the collegiate pool championship two years in a row.

I suspect that he could probably put a beat down on many, if not most of the guys who are typically looking to others to subsidize their dream. And he's enjoying his pool success while getting his college education. :thumbup: :cool: Total respect for him!

People need to think long and hard before trying to climb the pool ladder.

I wish our sport was richer.

best,
brian kc

The player I think you are referring to is Raymond Linares from Miami (see here: http://www.obcues.com/pages/Raymond-Linares.html ) He won it in 2010 and 2011 and then again in 2013. He also won the US Amateur Championships in 2010. He is putting himself through school, started and runs his own film production business and somehow still finds time to work out every day and play pool at a very high level. It can be done.

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 09:45 AM
There are many other things you would never hear about Olympic athletes doing that are the norm in pool.

Not to mention the things you hear about Olympic athletes doing,
That you'll never hear Pool Players doing. :thumbup:

You're right, one of those things is getting a cushy job from Home Depot with the time
off needed for events and training, and who knows what else.

Of coarse it would be hard for Home Depot to put adds on TV about the Pool Players
they hire that are training for big events here in the United States.

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 10:08 AM
so what pros need, is a Sugar-Daddy/Momma?

have i got this right?

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 10:17 AM
They need a miracle !

But then one of my favorite sayings is;

I don't believe in miracles
I DEPEND ON THEM !

Joe T
01-16-2014, 10:20 AM
The player I think you are referring to is Raymond Linares from Miami (see here: http://www.obcues.com/pages/Raymond-Linares.html ) He won it in 2010 and 2011 and then again in 2013. He also won the US Amateur Championships in 2010. He is putting himself through school, started and runs his own film production business and somehow still finds time to work out every day and play pool at a very high level. It can be done.

First I was just going to repost this because its WORTH IT but then I remembered Raymond is the player that took action in Miami and got 8 high level players to participate in our Series II. They're playing off tonight for the national representative, All the best Raymond and hope to see you next week. The kid is an inspiration.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 11:34 AM
so what pros need, is a Sugar-Daddy/Momma?

have i got this right?

It works for some of them lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

JAM
01-16-2014, 11:37 AM
So disgusting the way some members on this forum poke fun at American pro players like they're zoo animals. Meanwhile, some members of this forum are the very ones asking for autographs and photo opportunities -- FOR FREE -- when they see the Americna pro player in person. :angry:

dabarbr
01-16-2014, 11:44 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=336851

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=348145

Thanks for the info. I missed those threads completely.

jburkm002
01-16-2014, 12:32 PM
So are we to assume that what AZ posts as income from tourneys is every pros only income? Why does everyone think they know what pros make? Do you know pros are broke or not? I would imagine none of us know. Who are we to say they should get jobs? So if AZ says Efren only made say $10000 last year. You would tell him he should get a full time job. How silly. Its their lives. Is this a forum for pool fans (fanatics) or pool critics. Do you know what pros have jobs outside of pool? Do they need to tell everyone how they live their lives?

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 12:36 PM
if you're successfully self-employed, then you don't need a stake horse

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 12:51 PM
So are we to assume that what AZ posts as income from tourneys is every pros only income? Why does everyone think they know what pros make? Do you know pros are broke or not? I would imagine none of us know. Who are we to say they should get jobs? So if AZ says Efren only made say $10000 last year. You would tell him he should get a full time job. How silly. Its their lives. Is this a forum for pool fans (fanatics) or pool critics. Do you know what pros have jobs outside of pool? Do they need to tell everyone how they live their lives?

BRAVO !

I agree and applaud your statement !

A little off topic because I am not a Pro but a gentleman said to me one time
(being nosy) well if you don't have a job how do you PAY RENT ?

I told him CASH ! ---------------------> That ended the conversation.

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:52 PM
So are we to assume that what AZ posts as income from tourneys is every pros only income? Why does everyone think they know what pros make? Do you know pros are broke or not? I would imagine none of us know. Who are we to say they should get jobs? So if AZ says Efren only made say $10000 last year. You would tell him he should get a full time job. How silly. Its their lives. Is this a forum for pool fans (fanatics) or pool critics. Do you know what pros have jobs outside of pool? Do they need to tell everyone how they live their lives?

Tap, tap, tap!

JumpinJoe
01-16-2014, 01:05 PM
Bottom line is this.

If you can't afford to get yourself to events and pay your own way and reap all the benefits then it's time to look for something else to do full time and make pool your 2nd part time job. Because if you can't afford it, it's because your not good enough to compete in those events, sorry. Just the facts.

There's only a handful of guys perhaps 10, that can win at these events, the rest are at best hoping to break even. And the ones that can win are not asking to be staked in the tournaments usually. Gambling, yes they want staked.

CJ Wiley
01-16-2014, 01:20 PM
So are we to assume that what AZ posts as income from tourneys is every pros only income? Why does everyone think they know what pros make? Do you know pros are broke or not? I would imagine none of us know. Who are we to say they should get jobs? So if AZ says Efren only made say $10000 last year. You would tell him he should get a full time job. How silly. Its their lives. Is this a forum for pool fans (fanatics) or pool critics. Do you know what pros have jobs outside of pool? Do they need to tell everyone how they live their lives?

Well Stated - the best post of the entire thread, jburkm002 ....very wise indeed!

After hearing all the nonsense about "Pros," I've come to the conclusion that they're "figments of some people's imagination". I guess it's easier to be critical and scrutinize "Pros" rather than honest self evaluation.....as usual "if you can spot it, you got it". ;) *

There's an old saying that describes those that judge others - "I can see you (Pro Pool Players) better than I can see me because I see myself through a lens of a life time of rationalizations and justifications".....'The Game is the Teacher'

* This simply means that if you spot (recognize) someone's behavior, attitude, condition, etc. you probably have the same stuff your self.

HawaiianEye
01-16-2014, 01:59 PM
so what pros need, is a Sugar-Daddy/Momma?

have i got this right?

I "think" having a "sugar mama may have been what got St. Louis "Louie" Roberts killed.

JAM
01-16-2014, 02:22 PM
I "think" having a "sugar mama may have been what got St. Louis "Louie" Roberts killed.

You got that right!

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 02:22 PM
The last 2 players that I send a little to.

One player decided that it was a better idea to get drunk with the boys the night before his first match and missed it.
He burned a few guys.

The second player walked into a pool in Vegas wearing a funny suit and put the video on UTube.

The video was worth the money. The first player, not so much. If I had have known that would happen, I would have spent the money on myself.

JAM
01-16-2014, 02:31 PM
The last 2 players that I send a little to.

One player decided that it was a better idea to get drunk with the boys the night before his first match and missed it.
He burned a few guys.

The second player walked into a pool in Vegas wearing a funny suit and put the video on UTube.

The video was worth the money. The first player, not so much. If I had have known that would happen, I would have spent the money on myself.

I also was on the same Backers Committees. :grin-square:

grover
01-16-2014, 03:39 PM
Folks,

If anyone would like to get in on the action at Derby by being a stake-horse the opportunity is there. With the dearth of pool ahead players are looking to save on expenses any way possible. If you would like to stake a player at DCC please just post here or PM me with the following info:

1) What player or players would be of interest for you to stake?
2) What do you offer them? A) Hotel room B) Entry Fee C) Travel Expense D) ALL of this.
3) What do you want in return? For instance, do you want to stake a player to all of his expenses in exchange for 40% of his winnings in the event? That sort of thing. Just let me know the risk you are willing to take and what reward you wish for taking that risk.

I will contact the player and let them examine your answer and reply. Neither AZBilliards nor myself will expect or accept a fee for this service. It is free, just an opportunity for a willing buyer to meet a willing seller in an open marketplace.

PM me.

is this a joke?
let them dumping sob pro's fend for themselves.

jmurphy
01-16-2014, 06:12 PM
What person in their right mind would stake a player and not take ALL the expenses off the top and split 50/50 what's ever left over after that?
The Backer is taking all the risk..............

Now if the player is looking for cooperate sponsorship that is all together different.

Pelican
01-16-2014, 06:37 PM
Bottom line is this.

If you can't afford to get yourself to events and pay your own way and reap all the benefits then it's time to look for something else to do full time and make pool your 2nd part time job. Because if you can't afford it, it's because your not good enough to compete in those events, sorry. Just the facts.

There's only a handful of guys perhaps 10, that can win at these events, the rest are at best hoping to break even. And the ones that can win are not asking to be staked in the tournaments usually. Gambling, yes they want staked.

Good observation Joe. I got into circle track racing in the 60's. Only took me one season to find out that 2 guys was making money, 2 were breaking even, and the rest of us were losing our a$$. Surely not everyone that attends an event like Derby expects to win.

real bartram
01-16-2014, 08:16 PM
is this a joke?
let them dumping sob pro's fend for themselves.

Not all pros dump

$TAKE HOR$E
01-16-2014, 08:21 PM
Not all pros dump

Esp the ones that packspray...!!

real bartram
01-16-2014, 08:37 PM
Esp the ones that packspray...!!

Yes they are the good ones
1 man no aiming system with packspray

Jpowell7575
01-16-2014, 09:16 PM
yes they are the good ones
1 man no aiming system with packspray

packspray!

pt109
01-16-2014, 09:55 PM
What person in their right mind would stake a player and not take ALL the expenses off the top and split 50/50 what's ever left over after that?


This makes sense...otherwise the player is just asking for charity.

If a business sponsors a pool player...there could be different considerations.

Travis Niklich
01-16-2014, 10:03 PM
One way this could work would be if a third party or someone like Greg Sullivan, would act as an escrow service. A stake horse could be sent an itemized bill for expenses such as entry fee, room cost, Per Diem, and such then they would tell this person what the % cut is or provide a contract that spells out how the money would be chopped up. In return the stake horse would me mailed a check directly from the tournament payout. No cash for the player to blow in the casino and no chasing them down for the split after they get their check. I understand this would be a large amount of work but it could take some of the chance of getting bit.

I would also put in a stipulation in the agreement or contract that there would be a penalty if the play didn't show for a match or stayed up all night or got loaded and couldn't play right for the tournament.

JumpinJoe
01-16-2014, 10:21 PM
One way this could work would be if a third party or someone like Greg Sullivan, would act as an escrow service. A stake horse could be sent an itemized bill for expenses such as entry fee, room cost, Per Diem, and such then they would tell this person what the % cut is or provide a contract that spells out how the money would be chopped up. In return the stake horse would me mailed a check directly from the tournament payout. No cash for the player to blow in the casino and no chasing them down for the split after they get their check. I understand this would be a large amount of work but it could take some of the chance of getting bit.

I would also put in a stipulation in the agreement or contract that there would be a penalty if the play didn't show for a match or stayed up all night or got loaded and couldn't play right for the tournament.


Lol.
This happens if your not there to babysit them.
The penalty is, YOU lose your dough. Pro moves on to the next stakehorse. It's been this way for 50 years.

BJTyler
01-16-2014, 10:24 PM
Very interesting thread with many thoughtful views and insights.

A thought comes to mind.

First, having a structured process to facilitate the backing of pros in open events is - IMO - a great idea! I realize this is not what the op was suggesting, but perhaps it's something we should explore.

For each open tournament, we could have a online player "exchange" where people could bid on contracts to back players that are interested in obtaining backing for that tournament. The contracts would be uniform and consist of the winning bidder paying a fixed $ amount = (entry fee + designated expenses). In exchange he would receive a percentage of the player's winnings post expenses. Exactly how large a percentage would be determined by the bid itself, i.e. the winning bidder would be the person who offers the largest split to the player.

Clearly, the devil's in the details.

- Just because a player enters the "exchange" he is not guaranteed a bid. Obviously if a total goof enters the US open, nobody is going to bid on him even if they were to receive 100% of their winnings.

- All monies would flow directly from the winning bidder to the exchange. The exchange would then disperse entry fees directly to the tournament director. When the tournament is over, all tournament winnings (for backed players) would flow from the TD to the exchange, and finally the exchange would release payouts + expense money to the players and the backers. In the event that the player does not cash, he would simply receive the expense money. This would greatly reduce the risk of double dipping and other forms of malfeasance.

- Any player that enters the exchange would be required to participate as long as he receives a bid. For instance, a player could not back out of the contract simply because the winning bid left him with too small a percentage. Once you enter the exchange, you're committed.

- The more added money there is, the better this system will work. The more added prize money, the higher the chance of a player being backed. Said differently, if there is no added prize money, it will be almost impossible for anyone but an elite level player to get backed.

- This exchange creates a very powerful feedback loop. Imagine a situation where a player is being backed for 95% of his winnings. While one could argue that this player would have little incentive to play hard, I think the opposite would be true. If a player repeatedly performs under his abilities, or dumps, his future backing prospects would be greatly reduced. On the other hand, as a player wins more and more, his share of the winnings would naturally increase.

- You would obviously need the cooperation of the tournament; they would have to opt into utilizing the exchange. But I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to. It would only add players to their tournament.

- Somebody would have to run the exchange. This is by far the biggest hurdle. There are costs to running anything, and in a sport such as pool, there is very little cushion to support additional overhead. Perhaps a combination of a small contract fee (maybe 1% of the entry fee), tournament exchange fee (paid by the TD), along with donations (in kind and in $$) from places/people like AZB and its members, could go towards initially supporting the exchange?

...just a thought.

Travis Niklich
01-16-2014, 10:52 PM
Lol.
This happens if your not there to babysit them.
The penalty is, YOU lose your dough. Pro moves on to the next stakehorse. It's been this way for 50 years.

It doesn't have to be that way. People in all kinds of professions have to sign a contract that spells out what's acceptable behavior. If a player wanted to be on the list for a stake horse on the exchange they would have to put up a cash bond for as long as they wanted to participate. If they screw up they forfeit the bond money to the stake horse they screwed. I understand this would be strange for pool players at first but it would be a step in a direction that could help them and the sport. It's the way things have been handled with other athletes and professionals for a long time.

Dave714
01-16-2014, 10:54 PM
I agree with Jumping Joe. If you can't afford to pay your own way in tourns don't beg someone to put you in. Have some pride !! Get your life together and make your own $$$.If your a full time pool player and your not a pro ( like all those players in N Orls trying to hustle each other every night. LMAO what a FU life). you are all idiots . And, if your a full time Pro, good luck with that also, but very very few of you are going to make a meger 30k a year. that's not even taking to account expenses of traveling. SVB Alex, Darren, Dennis O,Busty Efren and a few of the euro players are accually making a living worth talking about. The rest of you need to wake up because your prolly next to being broke. Take a talent like Stevie Moore, he's smart enough to know pool isn't going to cut it.

AtLarge
01-17-2014, 01:07 AM
... Take a talent like Stevie Moore, he's smart enough to know pool isn't going to cut it.

Is Stevie doing, or planning to do, something unrelated to pool?

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 01:26 AM
I agree with Jumping Joe. If you can't afford to pay your own way in tourns don't beg someone to put you in. Have some pride !! Get your life together and make your own $$$.If your a full time pool player and your not a pro ( like all those players in N Orls trying to hustle each other every night. LMAO what a FU life). you are all idiots . And, if your a full time Pro, good luck with that also, but very very few of you are going to make a meger 30k a year. that's not even taking to account expenses of traveling. SVB Alex, Darren, Dennis O,Busty Efren and a few of the euro players are accually making a living worth talking about. The rest of you need to wake up because your prolly next to being broke. Take a talent like Stevie Moore, he's smart enough to know pool isn't going to cut it.

Didn't Jerry Forsyth start this thread? I wouldn't exactly say he was begging or has no pride.....who's begging anyway?

Who are these mysterious Pros that beg, dump and have no pride?

Do they really exist?

Do they have names?

Are they like "Santa Claus" and ride flying pool tables from tournament to tournament?

spanky79
01-17-2014, 01:48 AM
This is an ideal way of achieving a positive outcome. The problem I've seen in the past is players that do ask for sponsorship end up getting analyzed on issues other than their playing record/history......this ends up being an unnecessary "character review".

character review is huge. I would not stake someone I did not trust or someone i suspect would be up all night drinking or on drugs. And if your an ass you dont deserve a stake anyway.

punter
01-17-2014, 02:01 AM
character review is huge. I would not stake someone I did not trust or someone i suspect would be up all night drinking or on drugs. And if your an ass you dont deserve a stake anyway.

Definitely at least to the point that, what is the history of getting your part if successful.
In the past, some players would get staked by more than one stakehorse. they would usually solve the problem by not cashing in the tourney and hoping they could make some money gambling.

JAM
01-17-2014, 02:46 AM
Didn't Jerry Forsyth start this thread? I wouldn't exactly say he was begging or has no pride.....who's begging anyway?

Who are these mysterious Pros that beg, dump and have no pride?

Do they really exist?

Do they have names?

Are they like "Santa Claus" and ride flying pool tables from tournament to tournament?

Thanks for the morning chuckle. That tickled my funny bone. :grin:

Jerry Forsyth had good intentions starting this thread. He just had a recent interview with Greg Sullivan, which is now on the AzBilliards News page. Greg wants to have his events well attended by players of all caliber, to include the pros. He gives out perks to many players, knowing how difficult it is financially for a full-time pool player to attend all events in the year. That's how Greg Sullivan rolls.

My opinion -- and this is only my opinion -- is that this thread was just one avenue of a way to help a pro player make it to the upcoming DCC. Unfortunately, I don't think Greg Sullivan realizes how much hatred there is for professional pool players on AzBilliards Discussion Forum. :sorry:

Asking for sponsorship on this forum is not always a bad idea. Let's not forget about John Schmidt winning the U.S. Open. How did he get there? AzBilliards sponsorship. So that was a good one.

Then we have James Waldon's girlfriend coming on this forum pretending to be James. That didn't end well.

We all remember the bad things, but there are some good stories about sponsorship on AzBilliards.

It's okay to hate on the pro players, but as it pertains to this thread, they didn't come on here asking for sponsorship. The intention of this thread is a good one, and anything that can make the Derby City Classic grow and be the best that it can be, I'm all for it. That is what this thread is all about. :)

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 03:50 AM
Then we have James Waldon's girlfriend coming on this forum pretending to be James. That didn't end well.

And then there was the Player just previous to this one that had his friend log in under his name and pretend to be him, asking for 2400.

Jen, it was crap like this that ruins it for the good guys. After a few of these threads, it is very hard to tell who is the good guy and who is the bad one.

People say, screw it, not worth the hassle.

Nothing wrong with a leg up but when a person doesn't know when they are getting track laid on them, its big cluster, you know what.

So, who is to blame?