PDA

View Full Version : Can Pro players get jobs and still compete?


PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 08:47 AM
How many pro players have jobs and still compete at a high level? Do you guys think players can work and play? I wish players didnt have to but with these tough times there isnt enough money in the game right now.

bdorman
01-16-2014, 09:01 AM
If so, they'd probably need a self-employment type business. Otherwise, what employer is going to give them 5-10 weeks off (even without pay that's just an unreliable employee)?

It seems like a major tournament takes at least a week including travel time.

dawgcpa
01-16-2014, 09:04 AM
In one of the recent TAR matches, Mike Dechaine said he works 40 hours per week for the APA league wherever. He said they do let him off for tournaments.

He continues to play at a pretty high level....

Chip Roberson
01-16-2014, 09:05 AM
Only one that comes to mind that ever did such,,would be Irving Crane,,sold Cadilac's for a living--and won major tourny's in five consecutive decades. Or was that six decades?

SLIM
01-16-2014, 09:36 AM
The MIZ went to college & was a teacher for a portion of his pool career.

SLIM

leto1776
01-16-2014, 09:37 AM
I see no reason not to. Many of the lower level UFC fighters maintain full time jobs, and they're fighting for the largest organization in their sport. Fact is, pro pool in America doesn't pay well unless you're a consistent top 3 finisher.

A smart employer would also use having a pro player to their advantage. Use him to draw in customers.

MahnaMahna
01-16-2014, 09:55 AM
Yes it is absolutely possible for a pro pool player to compete and work full time.

However, I think it would take a certain type of person with a strong work ethic, drive, and professionalism to be successful at both.

Do most pros fit the bill? Hell no.

Sealegs50
01-16-2014, 09:57 AM
Jack Colavita worked full time and was a devoted family man. Nice guy all around.

macguy
01-16-2014, 09:57 AM
How many pro players have jobs and still compete at a high level? Do you guys think players can work and play? I wish players didnt have to but with these tough times there isnt enough money in the game right now.
Of course they can. It would also depend on the job, you would not want to be laying bricks and try to play pool. You also need a job that is flexible enough to be able to attend tournaments. In another respect it gives the player a sort of security that may even help them play. It is nice when you are not always playing for the rent and have few bucks in your pocket.

You know there was a time when other sports didn't make that much money either. Yogi Berra worked at a bowling alley off season at the same time when he was on a winning world series team..
Miz worked pretty much full time his whole life be it as a teacher, pool room owner and later marketer in his own business interests. If you have to work you will have to maybe be more selective in the tournaments you can attend but I think the bottom line is, you can play at a top level and also have a job or business interests at the same time. Ask Nick Varner, or Hopkins.

Joe T
01-16-2014, 10:13 AM
I'm going to follow you over here Petro because again the American Rotation Championship Series is another good solution for these problems, in this case the working or family man.

We designed the format so high level players compete locally by playing 7 matches in 7 weeks time, 4 of every 8 players qualify for a region playoff where they try to win spots in our national events. If they win the spot, they're guaranteed $1k and whats relevent here is we schedule our events to be two day Sat & Sunday events. That way if they do have a job, business, school or family obligations it makes it easier to take minimum time away.

If any of you know a high level player that has to put a sensible lifestyle head of their passion for pool please refer them to the American Rotation Championship Series or me. It just takes 8 players at 1 club and we can help them save time and money when it comes to competing nationally.

If more of us stop crying and take a little action we can take a nice positive step forward.

Mr. Bond
01-16-2014, 10:19 AM
Willie Hoppe had a goat farm and ruled the billiard world for several decades.
And Mary Kay is always hiring, so yeah, it can be done.

thepavlos
01-16-2014, 10:19 AM
Truman Hogue and George Breedlove come to mind.

Celophanewrap
01-16-2014, 10:24 AM
I would imagine they have to. But I also would imagine that it has to be the sort of thing that is pretty flexible. Too bad it's not an Olympic event, then they could all get jobs at Home Depot

King T
01-16-2014, 10:35 AM
It doesn't take much to substitute teach, its part time and you can take off as needed. Walmart 5hrs a night 6/7 days a week scheduled off for tournaments?

What about the large sporting goods chains, if its presented correctly there is a possibility that corporate might work with a Pro Level Player.

First things First.., you have to want to work! You have to HATE being broke and you cant be Lazy!

bdorman
01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
First things First.., you have to want to work! You have to HATE being broke and you cant be Lazy!

Good points. And you have to be confident enough in your game that 2-3 hours of practice per day will keep you in form.

jburkm002
01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
I guess it depends on how you define a pro. Many players have pro status but don't play in many events. I think to be an active pro even playing in one tourney a month would be tough. You would have to have a very special employer. For some, sponsorship could be an issue. Some may have other responsibilities other than tournaments. I would imagine there are many opportunities such as instructor, exhibitions, working in a pool hall that could bring in extra money.

nobcitypool
01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
Given the right set of circumstances, I believe a pro player today could hold a job and compete. Could they consistently place in the top 3 to 5 at major tournaments? That may be tougher.

The other question that may be of greater importance over time is, could someone hold a full time job, take up pool and become skilled enough to compete at the pro level. It's one thing to have reached the level and then playing/practicing enough to maintain your competitive skill level. It's another thing altogether to work 8 hours per day and also practice 6 to 10 hours per day over a long period of time.

dudlock
01-16-2014, 10:51 AM
It's a tough situation. Older heads like me and SJD can remember when pro baseball and pro football players needed to get work in the off seasons, like construction, bartender, plumber-electrician helper etc. Big name top players, maybe not. But base salary did. But they sure don't have to work in fast food. That would not be a good set up imo...

JAM
01-16-2014, 11:15 AM
Just out of curiosity, how many people on this forum are pro players and have a full-time job? Would love to hear all about it -- FROM THE SOURCE, not hearsay.

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 11:36 AM
I have to say there are many people on Az it seems that love to pull the
Pro Players down. It seems they feel that if they can pull the players down
enough then they think they can feel equal to them. It's sad people feel the
need to do this. (Petty Jealousy)

Not saying this is the OP intent just saying that's all.

JAM
01-16-2014, 11:38 AM
I have to say there are many people on Az it seems that love to pull the
Pro Players down. It seems they feel that if they can pull the players down
enough then they think they can feel equal to them. It's sad people feel the
need to do this.

Not saying this is the OP intent, just saying that"s all.

Hear, hear, and a tap, tap, tap. Thank you for stating the truth.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 11:42 AM
Yeah it would be good to hear from a pro player and see what they have to say but it's hard they are all hitting thousands of balls and to busy to read this! Jam where do the players who don't work expect the expense money to come from? I feel asking for a steak is the same as begging but that's just how I see it. Do you really think the players are hitting balls all day everyday? I'm sure there is time in their busy day they could work at something for some cash.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 11:48 AM
I have to say there are many people on Az it seems that love to pull the
Pro Players down. It seems they feel that if they can pull the players down
enough then they think they can feel equal to them. It's sad people feel the
need to do this. (Petty Jealousy)

Not saying this is the OP intent, just saying that's all.

Far from my intent I really wish pool would boom and these guys made huge money but it's not the case and pro players need to be staked to go to a tournament and I was wondering if players could work to cover their own expenses that's all. Pro pool pays nothing unless you win everything and we know how many are doing that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 11:50 AM
Hear, hear, and a tap, tap, tap. Thank you for stating the truth.

Are you ok? Your acting like it's a terrible shame I asked I pros could or should have a job like everyone else does?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 11:50 AM
how OLD are they?

seriously. REALLY?
WHY, are WE, brain-storming & solving THEIR problems?
are you kidding me?
i have instilled @ my 12yr old son, since age 2, that he's ON HIS OWN at 18.

i am a single mother, working 100hrs/wk, to keep a roof over his head, with no support, and successful. ____ - me.

perhaps they need a Sugar-Mama

alstl
01-16-2014, 11:54 AM
Only one that comes to mind that ever did such,,would be Irving Crane,,sold Cadilac's for a living--and won major tourny's in five consecutive decades. Or was that six decades?

Joe Balsis was a butcher. Neither of them gambled as far as I know. Mosconi's job was doing exhibitions for Brunswick, same with Caras.

A lot of pros survive by having a backer and gambling.

JAM
01-16-2014, 11:54 AM
Are you ok? Your acting like it's a terrible shame I asked I pros could or should have a job like everyone else does?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

No, I'm not acting like it is a terrible shame that you are asking pros to get a job like everyone else. I am saying that you have no idea what it takes, the time involved as well as effort, to be a professional pool player and compete on a high level.

But let's all keep knocking them down and making fun of them like they're outcasts. That's what makes AzBilliards, a so-called pool forum, fun.

It is okay to say they should pay their own way, but to state a pro player in 2014 can have a full-time job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs to get by is assine.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 11:56 AM
how OLD are they?

seriously. REALLY?
WHY, are WE, brain-storming & solving THEIR problems?
are you kidding me?
i have instilled @ my 12yr old son, since age 2, that he's ON HIS OWN at 18.

i am a single mother, working 100hrs/wk, to keep a roof over his head, with no support, and successful. ____ - me.

perhaps they need a Sugar-Mama

Sweetie, you marry more money than you can earn in lifetime. :rolleyes:

Just saying.

Ken

bdorman
01-16-2014, 11:57 AM
I suspect a major problem is skills. There aren't many pool-related jobs (house pro - instructor, etc) to go around. Since pros spent their formative years honing their pool skills, what other skills do they have beyond minimum wage jobs?

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 12:03 PM
I suspect a major problem is skills. There aren't many pool-related jobs (house pro - instructor, etc) to go around. Since pros spent their formative years honing their pool skills, what other skills do they have beyond minimum wage jobs?

minimum wage @ CA just hit $12/hr. and rent is at an all-time low.

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 12:08 PM
Joe Balsis was a butcher. Neither of them gambled as far as I know. Mosconi's job was doing exhibitions for Brunswick, same with Caras.

A lot of pros survive by having a backer and gambling.

Hey that's a great idea, they should apply at Brunswick for jobs doing exhibitions !
JKing !

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:10 PM
Hey that's a great idea, they should apply at Brunswick for jobs doing exhibitions !
JKing !


I know. Everybody brings up players from the '50s and '60s. Heck, Cigarettes cost 25 cents a pack in the '60s, and a gallon of gasoline was 25 cents, and if you filled your tank, you got a free set of steak knives. :grin-square:

Times have changed since the era of players working full-time and playing pool.

Plus, the pool tournaments today pay the EXACT SAME AMOUNT as the pool tournaments of the '60s. Yet, the cost of living has at least quadrupled. :o

one stroke
01-16-2014, 12:17 PM
No, I'm not acting like it is a terrible shame that you are asking pros to get a job like everyone else. I am saying that you have no idea what it takes, the time involved as well as effort, to be a professional pool player and compete on a high level.

But let's all keep knocking them down and making fun of them like they're outcasts. That's what makes AzBilliards, a so-called pool forum, fun.

It is okay to say they should pay their own way, but to state a pro player in 2014 can have a full-time job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs to get by is assine.

How many pros made above poverty level money playing pool ,, Mike Davis just finished 4 last weekend and has a full time job now ,, Brandon Shuff just finished 14th in a similar field ,, who's better off ,
Most American pro's are seen regularly in weekly tourneys and Regionals that are many time won by a working Joe
We often hear the story's here of Hustling under assumed name wearing fake glasses and such ,,
These are the things that keep the Pro pool players intertwined with the average joe and the main reason why they are treated the way they are
Only a select few have earned respect ,, it does not come free

1

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:18 PM
How many pros made above poverty level money playing pool ,, Mike Davis just finished 4 last weekend and has a full time job now ,, Brandon Shuff just finished 14th in a similar field ,, who's better off ,
Most American pro's are seen regularly in weekly tourneys and Regionals that are many time won by a working Joe
We often hear the story's here of Hustling under assumed name wearing fake glasses and such ,,
These are the things that keep the Pro pool players intertwined with the average joe and the main reason why they are treated the way they are
Only a select few have earned respect ,, it does not come free

1

Most pros are BANNED from regional tournaments today.

And to pick out one pool tournament is not statistically significant at all.

Mike hasn't even worked a full year yet. LOL

SLIM
01-16-2014, 12:20 PM
no, i'm not acting like it is a terrible shame that you are asking pros to get a job like everyone else. I am saying that you have no idea what it takes, the time involved as well as effort, to be a professional pool player and compete on a high level.

But let's all keep knocking them down and making fun of them like they're outcasts. That's what makes azbilliards, a so-called pool forum, fun.

It is okay to say they should pay their own way, but to state a pro player in 2014 can have a full-time job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs to get by is assine.

JAM,

i think a lot of us on this forum do understand what it takes to succeed and be at the top of our field. I started working at the age of thirteen, not at something fun or that i enjoyed, just a regular part time job.
I worked hared, finished school & then went out & found a regular job.
Worked hard at several different shops & then found a permanent full time job.
For the last 25 years i have worked between 50 & 60 hours per week + farmed at home + do volunteer work + have hobbies..
My wife went to college & works full time in the medical field + takes care of 40 miniature horses + successfully shows the horses on the national level & takes care of me.
The amazing thing is we are not unusual, most people who are willing to work hard & make commitments live the same kind if lives.
We just cant do exactly what we want to all the time.

SLIM

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 12:23 PM
No, I'm not acting like it is a terrible shame that you are asking pros to get a job like everyone else. I am saying that you have no idea what it takes, the time involved as well as effort, to be a professional pool player and compete on a high level.

But let's all keep knocking them down and making fun of them like they're outcasts. That's what makes AzBilliards, a so-called pool forum, fun.

It is okay to say they should pay their own way, but to state a pro player in 2014 can have a full-time job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs to get by is assine.

This is a world that takes money to live and that crack that I dont know what it takes is just a shot at me you have no idea what I know about pro pool or what it takes to be good. In 2014 these pro players that are broke not the ones living off a girlfriend or wife how do they pay for the expenses to travel to tournaments? how is asking if they should have jobs making fun of them? How can you say they shouldnt have jobs when pool doesnt pay the bills? These players are all adults if they dont want to work thats up to them I was wondering what everyone else thought. Everyone knows that if you didnt work and only played pool you would be a better player but that doesnt pay the bills and that is my point.

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:23 PM
JAM,

i think a lot of us on this forum do understand what it takes to succeed and be at the top of our field. I started working at the age of thirteen, not at something fun or that i enjoyed, just a regular part time job.
I worked hared, finished school & then went out & found a regular job.
Worked hard at several different shops & then found a permanent full time job.
For the last 25 years i have worked between 50 & 60 hours per week + farmed at home + do volunteer work + have hobbies..
My wife went to college & works full time in the medical field + takes care of 40 miniature horses + successfully shows the horses on the national level & takes care of me.
The amazing thing is we are not unusual, most people who are willing to work hard & make commitments live the same kind if lives.
We just cant do exactly what we want to all the time.

SLIM

I'm not arguing with you on that, but this is a pool forum here. People on this pool forum are ridiculing and demeaning pro players because they can't afford to compete anymore due to a fractured pool industry. They suggest that they flip burgers and sell hot dogs. I mean, the nerve! :mad:

Sure, if somebody needs money, they should get a job. I agree with this logic. But a pro player cannot complete at a high level if he's flipping burgers on a full-time job. There is not enough time to practice, number one, and then most employers won't let them take time off to attend pool tournaments as often as is needed.

It seems like members of this forum like to wipe their feet on pro players as if they're scum of the earth, but they're the sames one in the front row at pool events cheering them on. Sickening.

SLIM
01-16-2014, 12:32 PM
i'm not arguing with you on that, but this is a pool forum here. People on this pool forum are ridiculing and demeaning pro players because they can't afford to compete anymore due to a fractured pool industry. They suggest that they flip burgers and sell hot dogs. I mean, the nerve! :mad:

Sure, if somebody needs money, they should get a job. I agree with this logic. But a pro player cannot complete at a high level if he's flipping burgers on a full-time job. There is not enough time to practice, number one, and then most employers won't let them take time off to attend pool tournaments as often as is needed.

It seems like members of this forum like to wipe their feet on pro players as if they're scum of the earth, but they're the sames one in the front row at pool events cheering them on. Sickening.

JAM,

i disagree.
If a player worked a day job.
Practices at home or in a pool hall till midnight.
Went home, got some sleep.
Got up, went to work.
Used vacation to do a couple big tourneys.
Went on weekend trips to smaller tourneys, i think they could survive.
It's that going home getting some sleep thing that i think most players lack the fortitude for.

I realize this is a pool forum, however pool is just a part of life, like everything else.

SLIM

PhoenixVA
01-16-2014, 12:40 PM
I think that also depends on where you live. I live in a small town, and the nearest large tournaments are hours away, at least. I'd spend A LOT of money just getting to the tournaments, including food and gas, and it'd be tough to make that make money for me on a consistent basis. What would be my dream job? To make enough money to survive, not be rich, but survive, within the pool community by using my graphics design and commercial production skills. Making money at what you love is the definition of dream job. Have I done that yet? No. Will I be able to? You never know. Heck, I'd do some stuff for free just to get my foot in the door. YOU HEAR THAT POVPOOL and INSIDE POOL! LOL!

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 12:42 PM
I know. Everybody brings up players from the '50s and '60s. Heck, Cigarettes cost 25 cents a pack in the '60s, and a gallon of gasoline was 25 cents, and if you filled your tank, you got a free set of steak knives. :grin-square:

Times have changed since the era of players working full-time and playing pool.

Plus, the pool tournaments today pay the EXACT SAME AMOUNT as the pool tournaments of the '60s. Yet, the cost of living has at least quadrupled. :o

JAM -

I have interviewed just about all of the OLD pros, years ago.

Most were broke. Things really havent changed.

I was interviewing Ray Martin at his house in Florida years ago. It was small, very modest. I asked Ray about some pool players his age, including a number of HOF players that were absolutely broke. Ray considered himself very fortunate to have what he had and he thought he was better off than almost all of them.

So thinking the old guard were rich isnt right either. The ones that have made a ton in the pool industry made it from other than the money made gambling or tournaments. Hopkins, Varner, etc.

The pool player that is most successful today isnt the best pool player by far. It is one that has leveraged pool into other things, and that is Jeanette Lee. Again years ago, when I was doing some writing she made over $400K in endorsements and advertising, and probably $30K max from tournaments.

The folks that are successful in pool, IMO, would have been successful without pool.

But whining about how little money is in pool, years and years, reminds me of the liberals and the 99%ers who think they are entitled to something. IF you want to be successfull go do the work to be successfull, dont go belly aching about the price of gas in 1960 and the payouts in tournaments.

Both of my daughters went to college and are teachers. Teachers start at $34K a year, but I dont stomp my feet and whine and blame the BCA, blame the fans, blame everyone. My kids knew how much they were going to make as teachers and still went into the field.

Pool players could and can ask anyone, unless you really have something on the ball you are going to make very little money, it is expensive to go and play, and more than likely going to be broke most of their lives.

SVB is the best in the country, makes $100K. Almost any engineer in the country makes more than that when they are upper end performers.

I dont really care, but damn can you please quit whinning about it, nobody is entitled to anything....just go out there and earn it.

Ken

snowmon34
01-16-2014, 12:46 PM
JAM -

I have interviewed just about all of the OLD pros, years ago.

Most were broke. Things really havent changed.

I was interviewing Ray Martin at his house in Florida years ago. It was small, very modest. I asked Ray about some pool players his age, including a number of HOF players that were absolutely broke. Ray considered himself very fortunate to have what he had and he thought he was better off than almost all of them.

So thinking the old guard were rich isnt right either. The ones that have made a ton in the pool industry made it from other than the money made gambling or tournaments. Hopkins, Varner, etc.

The pool player that is most successful today isnt the best pool player by far. It is one that has leveraged pool into other things, and that is Jeanette Lee. Again years ago, when I was doing some writing she made over $400K in endorsements and advertising, and probably $30K max from tournaments.

The folks that are successful in pool, IMO, would have been successful without pool.

But whining about how little money is in pool, years and years, reminds me of the liberals and the 99%ers who think they are entitled to something. IF you want to be successfull go do the work to be successfull, dont go belly aching about the price of gas in 1960 and the payouts in tournaments.

Both of my daughters went to college and are teachers. Teachers start at $34K a year, but I dont stomp my feet and whine and blame the BCA, blame the fans, blame everyone. My kids knew how much they were going to make as teachers and still went into the field.

Pool players could and can ask anyone, unless you really have something on the ball you are going to make very little money, it is expensive to go and play, and more than likely going to be broke most of their lives.

SVB is the best in the country, makes $100K. Almost any engineer in the country makes more than that when they are upper end performers.

I dont really care, but damn can you please quit whinning about it, nobody is entitled to anything....just go out there and earn it.

Ken

exactly right

SLIM
01-16-2014, 12:46 PM
i think that also depends on where you live. I live in a small town, and the nearest large tournaments are hours away, at least. I'd spend a lot of money just getting to the tournaments, including food and gas, and it'd be tough to make that make money for me on a consistent basis. What would be my dream job? To make enough money to survive, not be rich, but survive, within the pool community by using my graphics design and commercial production skills. Making money at what you love is the definition of dream job. Have i done that yet? No. Will i be able to? You never know. Heck, i'd do some stuff for free just to get my foot in the door. You hear that povpool and inside pool! Lol!

PVA,

most people work hard their entire life to live a little bit of the dream.
Very few, if any, get to work the dream.

Trying to live the dream without working & building up to it very seldom works out, reguardless of what the dream is.

SLIM

$TAKE HOR$E
01-16-2014, 12:46 PM
J dont go belly aching about the price of gas in 1960 and the payouts in tournaments.
Ken

Hell with 1960, I remember buying gas for $.89 a gallon and im young enough to be your son.....:eek:

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:50 PM
JAM -

I have interviewed just about all of the OLD pros, years ago.

Most were broke. Things really havent changed.

I was interviewing Ray Martin at his house in Florida years ago. It was small, very modest. I asked Ray about some pool players his age, including a number of HOF players that were absolutely broke. Ray considered himself very fortunate to have what he had and he thought he was better off than almost all of them.

So thinking the old guard were rich isnt right either. The ones that have made a ton in the pool industry made it from other than the money made gambling or tournaments. Hopkins, Varner, etc.

The pool player that is most successful today isnt the best pool player by far. It is one that has leveraged pool into other things, and that is Jeanette Lee. Again years ago, when I was doing some writing she made over $400K in endorsements and advertising, and probably $30K max from tournaments.

The folks that are successful in pool, IMO, would have been successful without pool.

But whining about how little money is in pool, years and years, reminds me of the liberals and the 99%ers who think they are entitled to something. IF you want to be successfull go do the work to be successfull, dont go belly aching about the price of gas in 1960 and the payouts in tournaments.

Both of my daughters went to college and are teachers. Teachers start at $34K a year, but I dont stomp my feet and whine and blame the BCA, blame the fans, blame everyone. My kids knew how much they were going to make as teachers and still went into the field.

Pool players could and can ask anyone, unless you really have something on the ball you are going to make very little money, it is expensive to go and play, and more than likely going to be broke most of their lives.

SVB is the best in the country, makes $100K. Almost any engineer in the country makes more than that when they are upper end performers.

I dont really care, but damn can you please quit whinning about it, nobody is entitled to anything....just go out there and earn it.

Ken

Another happy AzB-er continuing to demean American pro players.

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 12:52 PM
Another happy AzB-er continuing to demean American pro players.

Can you explain to me how this demeans anyone ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

SLIM
01-16-2014, 12:53 PM
another happy azb-er continuing to demean american pro players.

JAM,

i just don't understand how you extract that from what he posted?

SLIM

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:53 PM
Can you explain to me how this demeans anyone ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

I'm kind of tired replying to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

JAM
01-16-2014, 12:54 PM
JAM,

i just don't understand how you extract that from what he posted?

SLIM

He posts a diatribe about as if he's an SME on professional pool and then ends it with a sentence that just stuck in my craw.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 12:59 PM
Another happy AzB-er continuing to demean American pro players.

I said nothing demeaning.

My point is if you are teacher, you better be prepared to start at $34K (what my daughters started at).

IF you are an engineer, you are going to earn ALOT more, but you wont get rich.

If you are a pool player, its tough action and more than likely you will be broke.

If you want to make money in pool, you will make alot more if you can dress, act and present yourself in a way that you might be able to represent products. (Janette Lee, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Ewa Lawerence, Allison Fisher, etc.) Maybe even do things like JR Calvert, or Shannon Dalton.

Remember when Earl Strickland represented CueTech, I think he got something like $40K a year for YEARS. And then did nothing about talk about how bad there are? Eventually they found someone that would play nice.

Those are choices.

That isnt demeaning, that is looking reality and making choices.

Ken

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:00 PM
I said nothing demeaning.

My point is if you are teacher, you better be prepared to start at $34K (what my daughters started at).

IF you are an engineer, you are going to earn ALOT more, but you wont get rich.

If you are a pool player, its tough action and more than likely you will be broke.

If you want to make money in pool, you will make alot more if you can dress, act and present yourself in a way that you might be able to represent products. (Janette Lee, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Ewa Lawerence, Allison Fisher, etc.) Maybe even do things like JR Calvert, or Shannon Dalton.

Those are choices.

That isnt demeaning, that is looking reality and making choices.

Ken

I did not care for your last sentence. I'm not whining. I'm defending a minority on this forum, one that I happen to care about. I read your posts on this forum. I don't always agree with you, but I don't ask you to quit whining about topics you post about, either, just because I don't agree with you.

Have you ever played professional pool? Unless you've traveled that tournament trail, you have no idea what it's like.

SLIM
01-16-2014, 01:03 PM
he posts a diatribe about as if he's an sme on professional pool and then ends it with a sentence that just stuck in my craw.

JAM,

what would your advice be to someone who was very good at something, other than pool, that could not make a deasent living at it.

Mine would be to either find something else to do, or find something to do along with it that would allow them to keep doing what they were very good at.

Not as any kind of insult, just as a fact of life.

It is nice that this thread is staying on a civil level, even though we don't all agree.

SLIM

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:10 PM
JAM,

what would your advice be to someone who was very good at something, other than pool, that could not make a deasent living at it.

Mine would be to either find something else to do, or find something to do along with it that would allow them to keep doing what they were very good at.

Not as any kind of insult, just as a fact of life.

It is nice that this thread is staying on a civil level, even though we don't all agree.

SLIM

This thread here came about because Jerry Forsyth posted a thread about asking if anyone was interested in staking a player at the upcoming Derby City Classic. Some members of this forum were outraged at this request and said pro players should go out and get a job. That's the genesis of this whole dialogue.

I don't see anything wrong with working for a living. Heck, I have two jobs and work 16-hour days now, trying to survive. My first job was when I was 14 years old.

That said, this is a pool forum. The BCA has washed its hands of professional pool. Many regional tours have banned pros fromplaying in their events. Bonus Ball players are now branded with some pool promoters. Non-American players are competing around the world and get sponsored by their countries. Americans have nothing, no backing. Only one or two American pros can afford to go overseas to represent the United States.

In order for a player to compete on a global scale, they need to hit balls every single day to stay in stroke. You can't work a job and do both. For 5 or 6 years, I went on that professional tournament trail, going to two, three, and four tournaments a month. I saw what it was like, how expensive it is. I watched players sleep in their cars to save money for one night of hotel rent. I could go on and on and on about it.

I'm just saying that I don't care for the way people on this pool forum deman American pro players. Pool is cruel to its own, and this forum is a good example of why American professional pool is hurting. If the American pool culture doesn't accept professional pool, why would mainstream American accept it?

Professionals pool in the United States is circling the drain, and the more people slam pro players, the quicker they will sink. So let's keep it going, and then we can all post about who's the best there was back then instead of who's the best today.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 01:11 PM
I did not care for your last sentence. I'm not whining. I'm defending a minority on this forum, one that I happen to care about. I read your posts on this forum. I don't always agree with you, but I don't ask you to quit whining about topics you post about, either, just because I don't agree with you.

Have you ever played professional pool? Unless you've traveled that tournament trail, you have no idea what it's like.

No, I am not professional player.

Are you a Professional Engineer?

Unless you have been a Professional Engineer on projects larger than $20MM, with deadlines, commitments, lives of workers, their families, the livelihood of businesses, pressures and concerns of communities - you have no idea what real pressure is like.

Ken

one stroke
01-16-2014, 01:11 PM
Most pros are BANNED from regional tournaments today.

And to pick out one pool tournament is not statistically significant at all.

Mike hasn't even worked a full year yet. LOL

Where ,, Joss NE. Mezz , Action Tour ,, just in this area


1

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:13 PM
Where ,, Joss NE. Mezz , Action Tour ,, just in this area


1

I am not sure what you are asking. :confused:

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:14 PM
No, I am not professional player.

Are you a Professional Engineer?

Unless you have been a Professional Engineer on projects larger than $20MM, with deadlines, commitments, lives of workers, their families, the livelihood of businesses, pressures and concerns of communities - you have no idea what real pressure is like.

Ken

Pretty lame comparison, but okay.

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 01:17 PM
....I don't see anything wrong with working for a living. Heck, I have two jobs and work 16-hour days now, trying to survive. My first job was when I was 14 years old....


so you & i are in the same boat?

.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 01:18 PM
Hell with 1960, I remember buying gas for $.89 a gallon and im young enough to be your son.....:eek:

Ouch that hurt.

Ken

one stroke
01-16-2014, 01:26 PM
This thread here came about because Jerry Forsyth posted a thread about asking if anyone was interested in staking a player at the upcoming Derby City Classic. Some members of this forum were outraged at this request and said pro players should go out and get a job. That's the genesis of this whole dialogue.

I don't see anything wrong with working for a living. Heck, I have two jobs and work 16-hour days now, trying to survive. My first job was when I was 14 years old.

That said, this is a pool forum. The BCA has washed its hands of professional pool. Many regional tours have banned pros fromplaying in their events. Bonus Ball players are now branded with some pool promoters. Non-American players are competing around the world and get sponsored by their countries. Americans have nothing, no backing. Only one or two American pros can afford to go overseas to represent the United States.

In order for a player to compete on a global scale, they need to hit balls every single day to stay in stroke. You can't work a job and do both. For 5 or 6 years, I went on that professional tournament trail, going to two, three, and four tournaments a month. I saw what it was like, how expensive it is. I watched players sleep in their cars to save money for one night of hotel rent. I could go on and on and on about it.

I'm just saying that I don't care for the way people on this pool forum deman American pro players. Pool is cruel to its own, and this forum is a good example of why American professional pool is hurting. If the American pool culture doesn't accept professional pool, why would mainstream American accept it?

Professionals pool in the United States is circling the drain, and the more people slam pro players, the quicker they will sink. So let's keep it going, and then we can all post about who's the best there was back then instead of who's the best today.

Do they automatically get respect because their a Pro ,,,

1

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:27 PM
Do they automatically get respect because their a Pro ,,,

1

Since this is a pool forum, a modicum of respect would seem to be in order. :smile:

westcoast
01-16-2014, 01:28 PM
Which players have decent sponsorship? How much do these sponsors pay?

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:30 PM
so you & i are in the same boat?

.

Not too sure. I don't go anywhere anymore, not because I can't afford it, but because I can't get away from my work. :frown:

When you buy a brand-new 2007 car in 2007 and in 2014, there is only 11,000 miles on it, that speaks volumes of my lifestyle today.

SLIM
01-16-2014, 01:32 PM
JAM,

i guess i am not sure what you want from this forum.
Alot of people do have great stress & pressure in there lives.

You talk about the stresses of being a pro player.
From stories i have heard, if when the tourney was over if all involved had just gone home or back to the hotel, they would be a lot better off.

No one forces the winner, or the guy in 50th place to hang out all night & gamble away his winnings.

Sometime the blame falls on the ones who bring it upon themselves.

I am not trying to insult anyone.
Why is it everyone elses fault that pros cant a living at pool?

To me it seems that no one has ever made a good living at pool.

SLIM

PETROBOY
01-16-2014, 01:34 PM
I'm kind of tired replying to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

That sounds good Jam I really didnt think you would answer my question anyway. You think Im against pro players but Im not I dont like the idea of them asking for money saying times are tough and they could work jobs like the rest of us even some of us flip burgers you know.

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:35 PM
JAM,

i guess i am not sure what you want from this forum.
Alot of people do have great stress & pressure in there lives.

You talk about the stresses of being a pro player.
From stories i have heard, if when the tourney was over if all involved had just gone home or back to the hotel, they would be a lot better off.

No one forces the winner, or the guy in 50th place to hang out all night & gamble away his winnings.

Sometime the blame falls on the ones who bring it upon themselves.

I am not trying to insult anyone.
Why is it everyone elses fault that pros cant a living at pool?

To me it seems that no one has ever made a good living at pool.

SLIM

You seem to stereotype pro players that all gamble after the tournament concludes. This is not true of all players.

Nobody says it is everybody else's fault, either. What I am saying is that this forum continues to demean pro players as no-good, disgusting, bottom-feeding bums. I happen to disagree. You can continue to think all pro players are hustlers, scufflers, and addicted gamblers, but you're dead wrong. My opinoin? A lot of people on this forum are stone-cold knockers.

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:36 PM
That sounds good Jam I really didnt think you would answer my question anyway. You think Im against pro players but Im not I dont like the idea of them asking for money saying times are tough and they could work jobs like the rest of us even some of us flip burgers you know.

See, this is where you're putting words in people's mouths. Not one pro player came on this forum yesterday or today and asked for sponsorship at the Derby. Not one.

bdorman
01-16-2014, 01:37 PM
That isnt demeaning, that is looking reality and making choices.

Ken

Reality is demeaning.

Pool players have it easy compared to others: pool players work hard, compete in a tournament and win money if their score is better than their opponent's score. Easy.

How about writers? Begin your writing journey in junior high school. Later, lock yourself in a room for years writing the great American novel. Then you can't even get a publisher to read it. No one will even give you an chance. If it were only as easy as paying a $500 entry fee! (BTW, if you are a writer you must write every day...at least 5-6 hours...otherwise your skills will deteriorate)

Musicians? Hundreds of thousands of super-talented musicians (as good, if not better, than any you've heard) who couldn't pay a cable TV bill much less the rent. Yet they continue to practice 4-6 hours every day. But Lady Lucky didn't shine on them like it did for other less talented musicians. Like pool players, they hit the road for months at a time, playing in dive bars where the owner reneges on paying them...and they come home with less money than they started with.

Is the life of a professional pool player easy? No, but it's a lot easier than it is for lots of other folks who pursue a dream.

JBB2388
01-16-2014, 01:38 PM
The drama on these forums is amazing sometimes. Its a shame Petro's thread was taken so far off topic. I guess I will apologize to him as this post isn't exactly on topic either.

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:38 PM
Reality is demeaning.

Pool players have it easy compared to others: pool players work hard, compete in a tournament and win money if their score is better than their opponent's score. Easy.

How about writers? Begin your writing journey in junior high school. Later, lock yourself in a room for years writing the great American novel. Then you can't even get a publisher to read it. No one will even give you an chance. If it were only as easy as paying a $500 entry fee! (BTW, if you are a writer you must write every day...at least 5-6 hours...otherwise your skills will deteriorate)

Musicians? Hundreds of thousands of super-talented musicians (as good, if not better, than any you've heard) who couldn't pay a cable TV bill much less the rent. Yet they continue to practice 4-6 hours every day. But Lady Lucky didn't shine on them like it did for other less talented musicians. Like pool players, they hit the road for months at a time, playing in dive bars where the owner reneges on paying them...and they come home with less money than they started with.

Is the life of a professional pool player easy? No, but it's a lot easier than it is for lots of other folks who pursue a dream.

I like this post. :wink2:

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 01:41 PM
If you don't want to stake a Pro when asked just say no.

But why is everyone trying to tell these Pros who've put
their whole lives into this sport what they should or shouldn't
do?

I as a pool fan wonder much more about how and why this
great sport has come to this dismal point, it's not the players
fault either ( so please save me that BS)

I find it interesting why some people seem to be more critical
of the players, but those same people fail to feel the need to
Hold the BCA's feet to the fire or any of the rest of the industry?

Well perhaps it's as in nature, much easier to go after the lone
lame than the pack!

dudlock
01-16-2014, 01:41 PM
Ouch that hurt.

Ken


He must have been in another country other than the US. I was in the business in the late 60's in the US and it was not nearly that high. I remember being in a little gas war in 1968 and the price of regular got down to 19.9 per gallon. Regular prices at that time were in the thirty two to thirty nine cent range in my town for full service, wash the windshield, check oil, and even sweep out your floorboards inside and check tire pressure if requested. We always got the windshield, without a request and the back glass too if it needed it.

SLIM
01-16-2014, 01:41 PM
you seem to stereotype pro players that all gamble after the tournament concludes. This is not true of all players.

Nobody says it is everybody else's fault, either. What i am saying is that this forum continues to demean pro players as no-good, disgusting, bottom-feeding bums. I happen to disagree. You can continue to think all pro players are hustlers, scufflers, and addicted gamblers, but you're dead wrong. My opinoin? A lot of people on this forum are stone-cold knockers.

JAM,

witch american players are not or were not involved in gambling?
This is an honest question, not an accusation.

SLIM

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:42 PM
He must have been in another country other than the US. I was in the business in the late 60's in the US and it was not nearly that high. I remember being in a little gas war in 1968 and the price of regular got down to 19.9 per gallon. Regular prices at that time were in the thirty two to thirty nine cent range in my town for full service, wash the windshield, check oil, and even sweep out your floorboards inside and check tire pressure if requested. We always got the windshield, without a request and the back glass too if it needed it.

I was there! :grin-square:

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:43 PM
If you don't want to stake a Pro when asked just say no.

But why is everyone trying to tell these Pros who've put
their whole lives into this sport what they should or shouldn't
do?

I as a pool fan wonder much more about how and why this
great sport has come to this dismal point, it's not the players
fault either ( so please save me that BS)

I find it interesting why some people seem to be more critical
of the players, but those same people fail to feel the need to
Hold the BCA's feet to the fire or any of the rest of the industry?

Well perhaps it's as in nature, much easier to go after the lone
lame than the pack!

Man, I don't know who you are, but I like the way you think. You hit the nail on the head. :yes:

JAM
01-16-2014, 01:44 PM
JAM,

witch american players are not or were not involved in gambling?
This is an honest question, not an accusation.

SLIM

Come on, man. Surely, I don't have to spout of names, do I?

Okay, let's see. Tommy Kennedy for one.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 01:52 PM
If you don't want to stake a Pro when asked just say no.

But why is everyone trying to tell these Pros who've put
their whole lives into this sport what they should or shouldn't
do?

I as a pool fan wonder much more about how and why this
great sport has come to this dismal point, it's not the players
fault either ( so please save me that BS)

I find it interesting why some people seem to be more critical
of the players, but those same people fail to feel the need to
Hold the BCA's feet to the fire or any of the rest of the industry?

Well perhaps it's as in nature, much easier to go after the lone
lame than the pack!


I am a loss.

When sponsors are chased off, who's fault is it?

BCA? The fans? George Bush? or the player that broke his cue down before finishing the finals while the sponsors were watching and considering sponsoring the Mens tour years ago?

Ken

itsfroze
01-16-2014, 02:01 PM
I agree with the first line in your post!*

By the way the last EDIT on his post
was 3:57 at the time of this writing. :D







* I am a loss

one stroke
01-16-2014, 02:08 PM
Since this is a pool forum, a modicum of respect would seem to be in order. :smile:

Their not a Judge in their court ,, It's a open forum not a pro pool players forum when they step out into the real world their subject to the same rules if engagement we all are


1

TWOFORPOOL
01-16-2014, 02:20 PM
I lived in So. Calif in 1989 and decided to move back to Oregon (I was single at the time). So the last month on my full time job there I decided to play every night 3-4 hours and on the weekend 6-8 hours. I was playing around 25-30 hours a week and got a lot better. I played in a tournament on 9' tables and took 2nd loosing to Morro in the finals. I knew then I could play at a high level if I continued to play 25-30 hours a week and even better if I played 40-50 hours a week. The bottom line is working 40 hours a week and playing 30 hours of pool on top of that is very exhausting.

As much as I love pool I soon realized that I couldn't support a family (to include interacting with them) and play pool as a professional player and maintain a full time job. So I made the decision to play pool as a hobby. The bottom line is you cannot compete as well with a full time job. There is not enough hours in the day.

I'm sure there is some resentment from Azers because many feel they could play with the pros if they had time but instead work a full time job supporting a family. We all make choices in life and playing as a professional pool player is extremely difficult and not very effective in supporting yourself let alone a family. There are always exceptions however.

JAM
01-16-2014, 02:21 PM
Their not a Judge in their court ,, It's a open forum not a pro pool players forum when they step out into the real world their subject to the same rules if engagement we all are


1

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4CtLA1jC20). I'm worried now, but I won't be worried long.

$TAKE HOR$E
01-16-2014, 02:45 PM
I am a loss.

When sponsors are chased off, who's fault is it?

George Bush?

Ken

No one ever said he was a genius....

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 02:48 PM
How many pro players have jobs and still compete at a high level? Do you guys think players can work and play? I wish players didnt have to but with these tough times there isnt enough money in the game right now.

this is going to be a really bad quote, but yŠll remember Sam Kinison, right?

see this? it's S-A-N-D!!!! it was SAND one THOUSAND yrs ago. it'll BE sand @ 1000 yrs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKNoJ2BzSRU

(this corroborates letto1776's point w/ China - follow the money)

leto1776
01-16-2014, 03:01 PM
I know. Everybody brings up players from the '50s and '60s. Heck, Cigarettes cost 25 cents a pack in the '60s, and a gallon of gasoline was 25 cents, and if you filled your tank, you got a free set of steak knives. :grin-square:

Times have changed since the era of players working full-time and playing pool.

Plus, the pool tournaments today pay the EXACT SAME AMOUNT as the pool tournaments of the '60s. Yet, the cost of living has at least quadrupled. :o

So has inflation. 25cents went a longer way back then than it does now.

JAM
01-16-2014, 03:10 PM
So has inflation. 25cents went a longer way back then than it does now.

This is true. When McDonald's first came in existence, one could get a hamburger, French fries, and a milkshake for under a dollar. That was in 1960-ish era around my neck of the woods. :p

leto1776
01-16-2014, 03:19 PM
I am a loss.

When sponsors are chased off, who's fault is it?

BCA? The fans? George Bush? or the player that broke his cue down before finishing the finals while the sponsors were watching and considering sponsoring the Mens tour years ago?

Ken

Don't forget the player who dumped in the finals and metaphorically took a giant steaming dump on the sports books willing to take bets on them.

grover
01-16-2014, 03:32 PM
How many pro players have jobs and still compete at a high level? Do you guys think players can work and play? I wish players didnt have to but with these tough times there isnt enough money in the game right now.

let them dirty rotten dumping bastards fend for themselves...............:eek:

cueaddicts
01-16-2014, 03:33 PM
I am hesitant to post this, but I've been told from someone very reputable that several pros were offered the opportunity a few years back to tour around the country (all expenses paid plus pay) to help promote the sport. Guaranteed money was there and something beneficial for all stakeholders in pool was on the table....and it got turned down. It's tough to continue to find the compassion for them when you hear of such things. :(

watchez
01-16-2014, 03:40 PM
Here is my thoughts --

Let me prephrase all of this that I have the utmost respect for the skill level of the pro level player. For some it was god given talent that they fine tuned, for others they put in hours of hard work to get achieve their high ability. Both I can and do respect.

However, if someone in the last decade took it upon themselves to not have a job and devote themselves to pool, they did so foolishly. Pool is what it is. There is limited opportunity for a few people to make a living substanial enough for them to have what is deemed as a life in this country. There is no great messiah and everytime the players are tricked into thinking there is one, it puts them back 3 steps.

The players blind belief over the past decade that this messiah will come or is here, is why pool is where it is today. When KT came on board and started with the $300K paydays, $500K paydays -- if a group of players would have stood up and said "this is too much, lower the payouts for now and escrow the rest of the money. We don't need one person winning $300k in one week for our sport to survive at it's current level" then maybe the IPT and KT would still be around. Instead, they blew their wad in less than one season.

History has been repeated with Bonus Ball.

This is why I think the players are put into positions that some of us deem as not admirable. They chop up money, they make deals. In turn, they lose respect from their fan base. It is a cycle that keeps getting repeated.

All this being said, today's Pro unless you are a small handful such as SVB, Mika, Darren, etc - who have both the skill set and the sponsorship - you better have a real job and make it work. Or a family that loves and supports you to help you live your dream.

Pool needs to grow in baby steps - not in giant leaps that have you jumping off a cliff. It simply doesn't work.

If I wake up tomorrow and declare that I want to be a pro pool player and make it my dream, I am not being honest with myself. This has nothing to do with my lack of ability. It has to do with the lack of funding within the sport and lack of realization that I could be a pro in a sport that has enough funding to support my life style. It would be just the same if I woke up and said I want to be a pro in the sport of sculling. There are only a handful of people who can qualify but there is no money in the sport so they better have a real job.

One of my best friends is a 9 time champion in handball. Sports Illustrated did an article on him once and compared his skills and dominance to Michael Jordan. No one in the world could beat him for 12 years. But he knew the sport was what it was. He didn't a mass any fortune. He now has himself a job so he could live the life he wanted to and now plays in the occasional tournament. When he is around the sport, he is treated like Efren by his peers. But in the world today, handball or pool is not a top tier sport with funding. It simply is what it is.

Watchez is the teacher.

Ken_4fun
01-16-2014, 03:48 PM
Here is my thoughts --

Let me prephrase all of this that I have the utmost respect for the skill level of the pro level player. For some it was god given talent that they fine tuned, for others they put in hours of hard work to get achieve their high ability. Both I can and do respect.

However, if someone in the last decade took it upon themselves to not have a job and devote themselves to pool, they did so foolishly. Pool is what it is. There is limited opportunity for a few people to make a living substanial enough for them to have what is deemed as a life in this country. There is no great messiah and everytime the players are tricked into thinking there is one, it puts them back 3 steps.

The players blind belief over the past decade that this messiah will come or is here, is why pool is where it is today. When KT came on board and started with the $300K paydays, $500K paydays -- if a group of players would have stood up and said "this is too much, lower the payouts for now and escrow the rest of the money. We don't need one person winning $300k in one week for our sport to survive at it's current level" then maybe the IPT and KT would still be around. Instead, they blew their wad in less than one season.

History has been repeated with Bonus Ball.

This is why I think the players are put into positions that some of us deem as not admirable. They chop up money, they make deals. In turn, they lose respect from their fan base. It is a cycle that keeps getting repeated.

All this being said, today's Pro unless you are a small handful such as SVB, Mika, Darren, etc - who have both the skill set and the sponsorship - you better have a real job and make it work. Or a family that loves and supports you to help you live your dream.

Pool needs to grow in baby steps - not in giant leaps that have you jumping off a cliff. It simply doesn't work.

If I wake up tomorrow and declare that I want to be a pro pool player and make it my dream, I am not being honest with myself. This has nothing to do with my lack of ability. It has to do with the lack of funding within the sport and lack of realization that I could be a pro in a sport that has enough funding to support my life style. It would be just the same if I woke up and said I want to be a pro in the sport of sculling. There are only a handful of people who can qualify but there is no money in the sport so they better have a real job.

One of my best friends is a 9 time champion in handball. Sports Illustrated did an article on him once and compared his skills and dominance to Michael Jordan. No one in the world could beat him for 12 years. But he knew the sport was what it was. He didn't a mass any fortune. He now has himself a job so he could live the life he wanted to and now plays in the occasional tournament. When he is around the sport, he is treated like Efren by his peers. But in the world today, handball or pool is not a top tier sport with funding. It simply is what it is.

Watchez is the teacher.

Watchez is the teacher

Banks
01-16-2014, 03:49 PM
One of my best friends is a 9 time champion in handball. Sports Illustrated did an article on him once and compared his skills and dominance to Michael Jordan. No one in the world could beat him for 12 years. But he knew the sport was what it was. He didn't a mass any fortune. He now has himself a job so he could live the life he wanted to and now plays in the occasional tournament. When he is around the sport, he is treated like Efren by his peers. But in the world today, handball or pool is not a top tier sport with funding. It simply is what it is.

Watchez is the teacher.

That was a pretty big game in Denmark. My jaw dropped and I couldn't believe that's what they had on TV. A year or two later, I was looking at a used Ranchero on a lot and noticed the guy had an accent.. he had been a handball coach in Denmark! One of the regulars on the block where I hang out had been a badminton player. Crazy world out there, I tell ya.

It's also difficult to tell who exactly has a hard time making money as a pro and who just doesn't know what it means to not blow every dollar you have. Maybe it's a recurring theme for pool.. get money, spend it.

watchez
01-16-2014, 03:54 PM
Banks - not to hijack, but was that Team Handball, the Olympic sport? I am a little confused by your post. There are no Denmark handball champions that I know of. The sport is huge in Ireland, the US (both Americans and has a large player base that are Mexican).

My friend is a handball champion -- 4 walls on a court (like raquetball but with your hands). Game is played in a lot of other forms -- one wall like you see in NY. Or three walls as you see in California or Florida.

Banks
01-16-2014, 04:07 PM
Banks - not to hijack, but was that Team Handball, the Olympic sport? I am a little confused by your post. There are no Denmark handball champions that I know of. The sport is huge in Ireland, the US (both Americans and has a large player base that are Mexican).

My friend is a handball champion -- 4 walls on a court (like raquetball but with your hands). Game is played in a lot of other forms -- one wall like you see in NY. Or three walls as you see in California or Florida.

Oh, yeah, my bad. That was the team stuff. Kinda funny to watch. I knew I was forgetting something.. my lunch was a bit late.

Hunger is the Teacher.

sjm
01-16-2014, 04:40 PM
The question posed in the original post is a difficult one. In the old days, most of the top players had jobs, several of them Hall of Famers. Of course,there weren't many tournaments. In America, pro pool has come full circle and there are, once again, very few events. Logically then, more and more pros will decide that having a job makes sense and pool will become a means of supplementing their income, not the main source of their income.

Yes, you can have a job and still be a top player, but it will take great sacrifices and many won't choose to make those sacrifices. In the end, pros must decide for the,selves. More than a few make ends meet by teaching pool, owning poolrooms, or doing exhibitions, but the rest have a tough choice.

Gambling as a means of supplementing one's income from pool is no longer a long-term solution for many pros, either.

Today's pros have it tough, but like people in most professions, they must manage their time and finances skillfully to make ends meet.

victorl
01-16-2014, 05:47 PM
With regular jobs, I think many pros would still be able to 'compete' at a near world-class level, but they would have a very tough time winning anything, especially on the international stage.

Celtic
01-16-2014, 05:58 PM
Not a normal job. A pro could keep in peak level form working at a slow pool hall working the till and playing tons of pool when they get spare moments between getting people another coke or checking out peoples tables. Mike D's job sounds like the type that would give you a lot of spare time and the freedom to get out there and play when you need to.

A normal 8-5 job Monday to Friday with 3 weeks of vacation a year? No chance can anyone maintain a true top end professional level of play doing that nor could you go to all of the events you need to play in order to actually be considered a "pro".

Then there are the "other" jobs which make the above look like a vacation. My work day starts with my jumping on a site bus that drives me to a mine at 5:46am. I get to work, put in 12 hours, get back on that bus and get off of it back in town at ~8:50pm. And I do that for 20-24 days straight. No pro pool player is doing my job and remaining a pro pool player, I assure you of that.

TWOFORPOOL
01-16-2014, 08:04 PM
I am hesitant to post this, but I've been told from someone very reputable that several pros were offered the opportunity a few years back to tour around the country (all expenses paid plus pay) to help promote the sport. Guaranteed money was there and something beneficial for all stakeholders in pool was on the table....and it got turned down. It's tough to continue to find the compassion for them when you hear of such things. :(

That would make it a job! Part of the allure of pool is to win money and play the game.

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 08:33 PM
Average AZ member. American, not Canadian.

Get out of High School.
1. Enlists and serves Country.
2. Continues education.
3. Enters the work force.

Marries
Starts a family
Saves to pay for childrens future education and pay off the mortgage. Maybe enuff left over at the end of the year to take the Family on a small vacation. Either way, tries to do the best for his Family and himself.

Retired or nearing retirement.
Mortgage is finally paid off or close. Kids are finished College and out of the house.

FINALLY.
Light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe a little left over to start enjoying some of the things that were put on the back burner for many years.

Pro Players.

We have all read the accounts of Road Players and Hustlers. Thousands and tens of thousands scored and spent at the Casinos and Race Tracks and living the High Life and broke in 2 days with just enuff for fuel and food to the next town and hopefully, another big score.

Do it all over again.

Present Day.

Pro players had fun all their lives while others doing the average working guy thing.

Pro Players logging in AZ just long enuff to ask to be Staked for their next fun jig down the road.

What, I worked all my life while you guys led the Life of Riley and now you are asking for a piece of MY PIE.

Sounds like the story of the Grass Hopper and the Ant, doesn't it.

And people wonder why Pro Players get not so much a warm welcome when they come Crumbing.

The last 25 bucks, and I realize 100% that it wasn't much, just trying to help a guy out that got screwed from BB, drank my money up in a bar and missed his match. He did that to many others.

Great PR wasn't it.

I also sent a guy 25 so his son and Friends could go to Church Camp.

Which made me feel better?

I also took my share of my Teams Vegas Winnings last year and sent it to an AZ member who was down and out.
Ya know what, this guy sent me a PM thanking me so genuinely that it brought tears to my eyes.


What was it, the last guy that was asking to be Staked for 24 hundred. Then the story came out that he had scored large and spent it all on a Craps Table.

These Pros don't hang out and help any AZers. The only time they log in is when they have something for sale or are asking for a favor. Never to be heard from again until the next time.

There was the Vegas Dump, The Pro Camel Tour, and how many others.

Ha, like I will send more money out. Never again. I am very comfy now with close to
a 1/4 mill in the account, one Taxi plate thats worth 300K, and a grand coming in every 2 weeks.

I earned it. Now I will spend it all on myself.

Sorry, not meant to be a brag. Just that I worked since I was 12, busted up my body and paying the price for that.

I donate to the Humane Society.

I for one am sick of this crap, people telling others that they are running Real People off the board, being negative and being accused of being Haters.

This is a Billiard Site where we enjoy many things, chatting about pool, league, life, buying cues, and making friendships.

Who ever said that part of the deal was to support Pro Players. I certainly didn't.

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 08:54 PM
Doobie post. Sorry.

snowmon34
01-16-2014, 09:46 PM
Another happy AzB-er continuing to demean American pro players.

Nobody needs to demean pro players, a lot of it is self inflicted...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=336851

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 10:13 PM
Darn right it is Buddy. And Ray is busy with his wisk and dust pan trying to sweep that one under the rug, all the while giving members shit for supposedly running Real People off the site.

So yer supposed to take a Hooping while thinking that you are trying to help, and when it goes South, its everyones fault except the perpetrators.

Ummm, someone still doesn't get it.

So, at a later date, someone comes onto AZ with a legitimate cause and asks for donations. This person gets tarred and feathered for someone elses doing in the past.

Who is really chasing people from the site? Us, or the scammers that had their way before.

I believe that I know the answer, others maybe not at this time.

ralphe
01-16-2014, 10:31 PM
With regular jobs, I think many pros would still be able to 'compete' at a near world-class level, but they would have a very tough time winning anything, especially on the international stage.

Well in my country we don't have any Pro players for multiple reasons. Or at least none I can think of...

But the former Europe Nr.1 Dimitri Jungo can still perform at a very high level and is often Top finisher on EuroTour. He has a stable Job and a Family with 2 Kids.
So the answer should be YES!

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 10:48 PM
But you guys make really cool cheese and chocolate so you're forgiven.

And every house hold is armed. Word on the street is that you guys are also good shooters. And great Yodelers too.

I think the Swiss are pretty cool.

And of course, our Beloved Heidi came from Switzerland.

These guys are cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZL1aGxZjP4


OK, how yodeling was invented.


There was a traveling pot and pan salesman who traveled thru the Swiss Alps. One night he came upon a small farm house and was welcomed in for the night.

Well, to make a long story short, he ended up with the farmers daughter that night.

The next day when the farmer found out, he chased the salesman down and yelled at him across the mountain top.

"You bugger, you slept with my daughter".

The traveling salesman replied.

"Youroldladytoooo".

And that is how yodeling in the Alps was invented. true Story.

BJTyler
01-16-2014, 11:00 PM
Reality is demeaning.

Pool players have it easy compared to others: pool players work hard, compete in a tournament and win money if their score is better than their opponent's score. Easy.

How about writers? Begin your writing journey in junior high school. Later, lock yourself in a room for years writing the great American novel. Then you can't even get a publisher to read it. No one will even give you an chance. If it were only as easy as paying a $500 entry fee! (BTW, if you are a writer you must write every day...at least 5-6 hours...otherwise your skills will deteriorate)

Musicians? Hundreds of thousands of super-talented musicians (as good, if not better, than any you've heard) who couldn't pay a cable TV bill much less the rent. Yet they continue to practice 4-6 hours every day. But Lady Lucky didn't shine on them like it did for other less talented musicians. Like pool players, they hit the road for months at a time, playing in dive bars where the owner reneges on paying them...and they come home with less money than they started with.

Is the life of a professional pool player easy? No, but it's a lot easier than it is for lots of other folks who pursue a dream.

Great post!

You see this in any "right tailed industry" - industries where a very small minority obtain a disproportionate share of the benefits (sports and entertainment industries come to mind). Unfortunately, Pool's tail is much shorter.

CJ Wiley
01-16-2014, 11:11 PM
Which players have decent sponsorship? How much do these sponsors pay?

Shane makes a little more than $500 a month I hear, but it would be much more if the events were televised.

Earl Strickland was making over 200k a year back in the mid 90s.....that's quite a difference, and that's because there's millions of people that watch pool on ESPN...and only hundreds otherwise.....sponsors pay for numbers of impressions and pool doesn't offer many fans these days. TV is the only thing that will change this scenario.

In the mean time pool players will be struggling like all past artistic disciples (musicians, artists, spiritual leaders, writers, actors, etc).

http://cdn.phillymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Starving_Artist_by_EbonyLace.png

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 11:15 PM
Yes, twas a good post Doorman.

Anyone heard the term, Starving Artists?

Writers, painters, musicians. They all seem to make a go of it while pursuing their dream. Wonder how they have been doing it for decades and more.

If anyone of them would have made a windfall score of thousands, I bet they would have invested that back into their dream, not into a night of fun at the Craps Table.

Yes?

Ya beat me to Starving Artist thing CJ. The only difference between artists CJ is like I mentioned. The artists that I mentioned continue to live a hard life while investing in themselves with what ever money they can scrape up. All the while waiting for their break in life.

Pro Players have had their big breaks in life many times and blew it on their own accord. Did they invest in their future? Nope.

Most lived for the Now. Me. Me. Me. Did they not blow a couple of TV deals because they thought that they were worth more than, well, they were worth, and the sponsors walked.

I see where you're coming from CJ, but don't try and put the blame on anyone, fans, us, anyone but where the blame should lie.

PINKLADY
01-16-2014, 11:33 PM
Well in my country we don't have any Pro players for multiple reasons. Or at least none I can think of...

But the former Europe Nr.1 Dimitri Jungo can still perform at a very high level and is often Top finisher on EuroTour. He has a stable Job and a Family with 2 Kids.
So the answer should be YES!

YAY! we have SWITZERLAND in-the-house? vielen danke @ Grindlewald!

Terry - thanks for posting what i intended to. (i just woke up.) two things:

1) again - HOW OLD ARE THEY? cause my house is almost PAID FOR. i had enough cash to invest in my own business. i adjust & live within my means. this is not rocket-science (no pun intended)

2) Buddy Hall fundraiser - i bid $100 on Jay's signed program. NOT, to raise $$$$ for Buddy! but i did want it for my son's bday present, as history. i strongly objected to contributing to Buddy - ask Big Truck. and fortunately, i was outbid & was able to get same on my own.

3) contributing - and while we sat @ front row & i got autographs, i returned the favors. i gave JA $100. i gave Michaela $100. i dropped $300 on players' drinks @ Beatles (and we only had 3 drinks).

grow up. own it.

.

CJ Wiley
01-16-2014, 11:46 PM
Yes, twas a good post Doorman.

Anyone heard the term, Starving Artists?

Writers, painters, musicians. They all seem to make a go of it while pursuing their dream. Wonder how they have been doing it for decades and more.

If anyone of them would have made a windfall score of thousands, I bet they would have invested that back into their dream, not into a night of fun at the Craps Table.

Yes?

Ya beat me to Starving Artist thing CJ. The only difference between artists CJ is like I mentioned. The artists that I mentioned continue to live a hard life while investing in themselves with what ever money they can scrape up. All the while waiting for their break in life.

Pro Players have had their big breaks in life many times and blew it on their own accord. Did they invest in their future? Nope.

Most lived for the Now. Me. Me. Me. Did they not blow a couple of TV deals because they thought that they were worth more than, well, they were worth, and the sponsors walked.

I see where you're coming from CJ, but don't try and put the blame on anyone, fans, us, anyone but where the blame should lie.

I'm not blaming anyone, and judging is beyond my "pay scale" - all humans, even Professionals (of all trades) are simply doing the best they can with what they have - deserving the right to live, love and pursue happiness....'The Game is the Teacher'

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/50/c2/7c/50c27c8565d8344c960a3c7446d88a18.jpg

PINKLADY
01-17-2014, 12:01 AM
I'm not blaming anyone, and judging is beyond my "pay scale" - all humans, even Professionals (of all trades) are simply doing the best they can with what they have - deserving the right to live, love and pursue happiness....

good post. because it's true. we're all in it together & we're all trying to get by. so since you opened the door....
;)
do you, or would you, back a player, CJ?

(yes, you can tell me it's none of my business)

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 12:57 AM
deserving the right to live, love and pursue happiness.

Did I ever imply that they weren't entitled to that?

Everyone is. Go and get it, on your own.

Apparently Cute Gifs Are the Teacher. I don't how it has anything to do with me tho.

A couple of years ago, when I still smoked, I went out to pick up some beer. I saw a guy picking butts off the ground. I called him over and gave half of the smokes that I had.

Did I judge him? I didn't think so. I just wanted him to have something that I had an abundance of and he didn't.

Maybe he didn't have any or few choices in life. At that moment, it wasn't up to me to question or judge.

I read stories of Road Players and Hustlers, threads on AZ re Pro Players and the bad choices that some of them made with the money that they had, and also their opportunities.

From my couple of experiences and from what I have read, I just choose not to support them in any fashion.

If that is judgmental to you CJ, then I guess that I am.

I will still play pool three nights a week, with or without them.

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 01:07 AM
good post. because it's true. we're all in it together & we're all trying to get by. so since you opened the door....
;)
do you, or would you, back a player, CJ?

(yes, you can tell me it's none of my business)

I've backed pool players for millions of dollars through the years (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6QDvCx1CXA). As a matter of fact I backed an entire tour in 1996/99 called the PCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Y788EPE8k)....you may have heard of it. ;)

I know the pool world is suffering right now.....life, to a certain extent is about pain, the suffering is usually optional......get pool back on TV and the suffering ends. :smile:

http://i2.wp.com/www.themindfulword.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/suffering-thich-nhat-hanh.jpg?resize=650%2C432

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 01:25 AM
Mahatma CJ.

Sorry, just felt the need to post that.

Philosophical Posts Are the Teacher.

get pool back on TV and the suffering ends

Cool. Who screwed the Casino and TV deals?

And who is doing the leg work to make it right once again?

Thats a real question CJ, not being facetious. At this point, I am kind of reading that you are trying to do something about it. Who is helping you?

driz86
01-17-2014, 01:30 AM
Only one that comes to mind that ever did such,,would be Irving Crane,,sold Cadilac's for a living--and won major tourny's in five consecutive decades. Or was that six decades?

He said in an interview that someone needs to play only one time per week to maintain "coordination for pool". That's all he needed I guess. What a huge talent

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 01:31 AM
Mahatma CJ.

Sorry, just felt the need to post that.

Philosophical Posts Are the Teacher.



Cool. Who screwed the Casino and TV deals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwEGQeHa5E)

Do not fear, everything will work out fine in the end...... such is life.

http://mkozo.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/yoda-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering-yoda.jpg?w=658

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 02:10 AM
Another cute Gif which means basically zero. Yoda? Seriously. Do you believe in him? He hangs with Dick and Jane.

Try some Ghandi or Mao. Those guys actually were real people.

Of course, if you are trying to infer that I am afraid of life in turn which makes me an angry person, then stop trying to know me.

Been to the other side and back Bud. Trust me, there is nothing to be Afraid of.

I rejoice life because I know whats waiting for me. How about you.

Ah, I thought you were referring to this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

pdcue
01-17-2014, 02:18 AM
Since this is a pool forum, a modicum of respect would seem to be in order. :smile:

And that is where you make your mistake.

They deserve respect for their playing ability.

It's an old story. When I was a youngester - one of the best players in
the country was from this area. A great player - but a scumbag of a
human being. Criminal, drug addict, card cheat... you name it.

We all know, not all players fit this stereotype, many are fine upstanding
citizens,. But most hustle, or at least gamble and in general live a lifestyle
that is not conducive to self-support.

It is also an inconvient truth that there is just not enough interest in pool
nor pool players for it to be a viable occupation.

How much do think the average champion Table Tennis player makes?

How about Horeseshoe pitchers, Croquet players?

Unlike what I would prefer - this is not the planet where "pro" Pool players
can expect to make a living at it.

Dale

JAM
01-17-2014, 02:33 AM
And that is where you make your mistake.

They deserve respect for their playing ability.

It's an old story. When I was a youngester - one of the best players in
the country was from this area. A great player - but a scumbag of a
human being. Criminal, drug addict, card cheat... you name it.

We all know, not all players fit this stereotype, many are fine upstanding
citizens,. But most hustle, or at least gamble and in general live a lifestyle
that is not conducive to self-support.

It is also an inconvient truth that there is just not enough intrest in pool
nor pool players for it to be a viable occupation.

How much do think the average champion Table Tennis player makes?

How about Horeseshoe pitchers, Croquet players?

Unlike what I would prefer - this is not the planet where "pro" Pool players
can expect to make a living at it.

Dale

I make a mistake because I state my opinion? Gimme a break. :grin-square:

This is a pool forum. There are many different kinds of a pool player. You have your weekend warriors or aspiring pros. Then you have your social shooters who could don't care a hill of beans about professional pool. You have league players who enjoy the socialization and competition of that once-a-week event. Then you have professional pool, which sits alone in a class by itself, and it is indeed miniscule compared to the rest of the pool-playing public.

It is kind of ironic to see thousands of threads on this forum about who's the best or CONGRATULATIONS to so-and-so the professional pool player, when so-and-so doesn't even read this forum, yet these members feel the need to give praise.

Yes, I believe on a pool forum that a professional pool player who has achieved a certain degree of success in this fractured industry deserves a modicum of respect, just for the fact that they can, indeed, play pool at a high level. That doesn't mean you have to hang off their testicles on every thread or carry their pool case for them or polish their shoes or give them pedicures. It's just a recognition that they can play some. That's all. You don't have to like them; in fact, most on this forum don't. And that's okay. To each their own.

There are a few pro players that I have lost respect for in recent times, but I still have a modicum of respect for their pool-playing capabilities strengths. Why? Because I'm a pool enthusiast. I could literally write a dissertation -- and I have -- on the ailments of pool players in the last century. Substance abuse, gambling, patrons of prostitution, dumping, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I realize that pool is not without its flaws and warts. My eyes are wide open to this. Why do you think I have not been back on that pro pool tournament trail since July of 2006? :wink:

It is still my belief that in the year 2014, a pro-caliber pool player cannot hold down a traditional job and compete on a global scale. He can be a weekend warrior, an amateur player, league shooter, social or recreational pool player and hold down that traditional job, but not shoot professionally and compete with Filipinos, Europeans, Asians, and others around the world. Just won't happen. Sure, somebody can come on this thread and say, well, gee, if they wanted to do it, they could hold down a job and still find time to practice. Yes, one in a million, but the reality is, based on my experience of 40-plus years in this pool world, it can't happen.

The occupational hazards in pool are brutal. I know what they are, and I know which players are abusing their bodies, marriages, and professionalism, but I also know how the BCA has contributed greatly to this current state of affairs. Let's not forget that it was the BCA that gave Charlie Williams the right to be in charge of the so-called "governing body of professional pool." It went downhill after the UPA, and soon the BCA slammed the door on professional pool. Billiard Congress of America? Are you kidding me?

pdcue
01-17-2014, 03:02 AM
I make a mistake because I state my opinion? Gimme a break. :grin-square:

This is a pool forum. There are many different kinds of a pool player. You have your weekend warriors or aspiring pros. Then you have your social shooters who could don't care a hill of beans about professional pool. You have league players who enjoy the socialization and competition of that once-a-week event. Then you have professional pool, which sits alone in a class by itself, and it is indeed miniscule compared to the rest of the pool-playing public.

It is kind of ironic to see thousands of threads on this forum about who's the best or CONGRATULATIONS to so-and-so the professional pool player, when so-and-so doesn't even read this forum, yet these members feel the need to give praise.

Yes, I believe on a pool forum that a professional pool player who has achieved a certain degree of success in this fractured industry deserves a modicum of respect, just for the fact that they can, indeed, play pool at a high level. That doesn't mean you have to hang off their testicles on every thread or carry their pool case for them or polish their shoes or give them pedicures. It's just a recognition that they can play some. That's all. You don't have to like them; in fact, most on this forum don't. And that's okay. To each their own.

There are a few pro players that I have lost respect for in recent times, but I still have a modicum of respect for their pool-playing capabilities strengths. Why? Because I'm a pool enthusiast. I could literally write a dissertation -- and I have -- on the ailments of pool players in the last century. Substance abuse, gambling, patrons of prostitution, dumping, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I realize that pool is not without its flaws and warts. My eyes are wide open to this. Why do you think I have not been back on that pro pool tournament trail since July of 2006? :wink:

It is still my belief that in the year 2014, a pro-caliber pool player cannot hold down a traditional job and compete on a global scale. He can be a weekend warrior, an amateur player, league shooter, social or recreational pool player and hold down that traditional job, but not shoot professionally and compete with Filipinos, Europeans, Asians, and others around the world. Just won't happen. Sure, somebody can come on this thread and say, well, gee, if they wanted to do it, they could hold down a job and still find time to practice. Yes, one in a million, but the reality is, based on my experience of 40-plus years in this pool world, it can't happen.

The occupational hazards in pool are brutal. I know what they are, and I know which players are abusing their bodies, marriages, and professionalism, but I also know how the BCA has contributed greatly to this current state of affairs. Let's not forget that it was the BCA that gave Charlie Williams the right to be in charge of the so-called "governing body of professional pool." It went downhill after the UPA, and soon the BCA slammed the door on professional pool. Billiard Congress of America? Are you kidding me?

No, I am not kidding you at all - I just wish you could learn to read
with at least a little bit of COMPREHENSION.

Dale( verified and documented star reading comprehender)

JAM
01-17-2014, 03:04 AM
No, I am bnot kidding you at all - I just wish you could learn to read
with at least a little bit of COMPREHENSION.

Dale( verified and documented star reading comprehender)

I read just fine. I also understand the American pool culture.

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 03:15 AM
Jen, did I tell you that I got a pair of Cabelas Inferno Pac Boots tonight.

They have moisture wicking liners and my feet are really warm. Even posting this, my toes are toasty.

With my poor circulation in my legs, my ice fishing days are not over.

If we played pool outside, I would win every game.

Don't worry about Pro Pool. worry about me.

JAM
01-17-2014, 03:20 AM
Jen, did I tell you that I got a pair of Cabelas Inferno Pac Boots tonight.

They have moisture wicking liners and my feet are really warm. Even posting this, my toes are toasty.

With my poor circulation in my legs, my ice fishing days are not over.

If we played pool outside, I would win every game.

Don't worry about Pro Pool. worry about me.

I'm an Uggs boot kind of gal. They always keep my feet toasty warm. ;)

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 03:42 AM
Nice, but you'd never last a minute in Sasquatch Country with those.

pdcue
01-17-2014, 05:53 AM
I read just fine. I also understand the American pool culture.

Obviously you don't - if you did you would understand you should have
said something like, "I read perfectly well".

But my overall guideline remains - post on forums are a type of
'casual' conversation - so, no harm, no foul.

Howsomever, understand you well may, but much less well than I.

Dale(ornery and ostentatious)

JAM
01-17-2014, 06:07 AM
Obviously you don't - if you did you would understand you should have
said something like, "I read perfectly well".

But my overall guideline remains - post on forums are a type of
'casual' conversation - so, no harm, no foul.

Howsomever, understand you well may, but much less well than I.

Dale(ornery and ostentatious)

Well, now there is harm, because I damn well read just fine. :mad:

nb92
01-17-2014, 07:47 AM
.... Billiard Congress of America? Are you kidding me?

not aimed at you.... just using your quote as a starting point....

The BCA makes it perfectly clear in their By Laws that professional pool is not on their radar. Don't care, Don't want to care. It is a trade organization (see by laws below). First sentence first objective "..to enhance the success of BCA members..." who are primarily business members.

Article II: Purpose/ Objectives
Section 2.1
The mission of the BCA is to enhance the success of BCA members and to promote the sport of billiards.
Section 2.2
The objectives of the BCA shall be:
(1) To develop interest and participation throughout the United States in the sport of billiards and to educate those connected with or desirous of becoming affiliated with the billiard industry.
(2) To collect and disseminate statistics and information of a general economic, social and government character, analyze subjects relating thereto, and secure and present the view of the members to other organizations, the government and the public.
(3) To conduct trade promotion activities, including advertising and publicity.
(4) To work with other organizations to improve all areas of the billiard industry.
(5) To engage in any lawful activity that will enhance the efficient and economic progress of the industry and inform the public of its scope and character.

Lastly, and more to the point of this thread. There is no definition of a Professional Pool Player (in the US), at least on the men's side, that I can find. If I wanted to be a pro golfer there is a clear path (and "Q school" ain't cheap).... so a question of can a pro do xy or z and still be a pro is very difficult to discuss because there is no common definition.

We get into this opinion based discussion of "OH Pete from Capital City is a pro... why I saw him give George the 7 out and just break him.... and George came in 3rd at the US Open... blah, blah, blah....)

I know an agreement can be had on AZ about "majority of income.." but does that mean a player going from one B level tournament to the next one making $9K for year and picking up another $5K doing something else, is a pro?

Until there is a clear path (qualifiers, minimum earnings, minimum skill requirements, organizational status, etc, etc) and definition I believe we are just talking about a pyramid (very good players down to causal player at the bottom) and so in order to pursue a hobby (which is all this is in the US at the moment) other sources of income are required. IMO

With really nothing else available, if we were to use the SBE definition developed as a guideline for amateur events .. there are maybe, maybe ... 20 men who meet the definition of Pro in the US. (The women's side is more clearly defined). And some of those 20 end up on the list because of a very good run at DCC or Turning Stone (an open regional event). (definition below). So Justin and Mark are right -- "Pro pool could be purchased for nothing in the US".. and a serious of 16 player tournaments could work... just include a clear why to qualify .... Until something changes it is a hobby, a passion, an obsession but not a Profession.

WHO IS NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY IN AN AMATEUR PLAYERS CHAMPIONSHIP:

-- Anyone who placed in the top 24 places of any of these events:
2012 Diamond Open 10-Ball Pro Players Championship (our event) -- see the list here
2012 US Open 9-Ball Championship -- see the list here
2012 US Open 10-Ball Championship -- see the list here
2013 Derby City Classic - Any Division -- see the list here
2012/2013 Turning Stone Classic, Aug. / Jan. -- see the August list here -- see the January list here

PINKLADY
01-17-2014, 07:54 AM
^^^^good post^^^^

JAM
01-17-2014, 08:07 AM
not aimed at you.... just using your quote as a starting point....

The BCA makes it perfectly clear in their By Laws that professional pool is not on their radar. Don't care, Don't want to care. It is a trade organization (see by laws below). First sentence first objective "..to enhance the success of BCA members..." who are primarily business members.



Lastly, and more to the point of this thread. There is no definition of a Professional Pool Player (in the US), at least on the men's side, that I can find. If I wanted to be a pro golfer there is a clear path (and "Q school" ain't cheap).... so a question of can a pro do xy or z and still be a pro is very difficult to discuss because there is no common definition.

We get into this opinion based discussion of "OH Pete from Capital City is a pro... why I saw him give George the 7 out and just break him.... and George came in 3rd at the US Open... blah, blah, blah....)

I know an agreement can be had on AZ about "majority of income.." but does that mean a player going from one B level tournament to the next one making $9K for year and picking up another $5K doing something else, is a pro?

Until there is a clear path (qualifiers, minimum earnings, minimum skill requirements, organizational status, etc, etc) and definition I believe we are just talking about a pyramid (very good players down to causal player at the bottom) and so in order to pursue a hobby (which is all this is in the US at the moment) other sources of income are required. IMO

With really nothing else available, if we were to use the SBE definition developed as a guideline for amateur events .. there are maybe, maybe ... 20 men who meet the definition of Pro in the US. (The women's side is more clearly defined). And some of those 20 end up on the list because of a very good run at DCC or Turning Stone (an open regional event). (definition below). So Justin and Mark are right -- "Pro pool could be purchased for nothing in the US".. and a serious of 16 player tournaments could work... just include a clear why to qualify .... Until something changes it is a hobby, a passion, an obsession but not a Profession.

Just to let you know, the BCA's mission was quite different years ago. What you have written is what they are now. The BCA shut the door -- no, SLAMMED the door on American professional pool.

It was up to the BCA to establish ranking points. They were supposed to be the American representative of pool to the world pool organization, yet they keep the title in their name and don't have a damn thing to do with professional pool anymore.

Yes, the industry members of the BCA get fat while the professoinal pool players of America scrape for crumbs a few of them throw their way. :mad:

PINKLADY
01-17-2014, 08:19 AM
I've backed pool players for millions of dollars through the years (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6QDvCx1CXA). As a matter of fact I backed an entire tour in 1996/99 called the PCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Y788EPE8k)....you may have heard of it. ;)
....


well aren't you just a smart-ass this morning? (FYI, today's coffee talk is "the players ass." @ ABR thread)

i meant: now?

and i'm asking you, because you're CJ Wiley. and you're one of the last ones standing; you're still here. you, apparently did something right, in your career of being a professional pool player. and STILL are.

you get auto-respect for your achievements. you have to earn it, personally.... ;) but on this topic, i feel YOU, are probably qualified, the MOST - from everything that KK9 has taught me about Pool's History. what are (did) the failing "pros" doing wrong?

nb92
01-17-2014, 08:20 AM
Just to let you know, the BCA's mission was quite different years ago. What you have written is what they are now. The BCA shut the door -- no, SLAMMED the door on American professional pool.

It was up to the BCA to establish ranking points. They were supposed to be the American representative of pool to the world pool organization, yet they keep the title in their name and don't have a damn thing to do with professional pool anymore.

Yes, the industry members of the BCA get fat while the professoinal pool players of America scrape for crumbs a few of them throw their way. :mad:

Yup.. I know what they were... I used to be skinny (LOL)... but today is today and they are honest about their focus. Could you tell me what you mean by" profession pool player of America" ... is this an accomplished player that could make a living at their passion if given the chance? To quote my favorite philosopher

" after all the years I've found
My occupational hazard being my occupation's just not around
I feel like I've drowned

JAM
01-17-2014, 08:26 AM
Yup.. I know what they were... I used to be skinny (LOL)... but today is today and they are honest about their focus. Could you tell me what you mean by" profession pool player of America" ... is this an accomplished player that could make a living at their passion if given the chance? To quote my favorite philosopher

Look, if you know what the BCA was, then you should be outraged at what they have become.

In case you have not noticed, there is a difference between a professional player and a social player. Think about it.

I can play golf recreationally, or I can join a women's tour, with the key emphasis on "TOUR."

There ain't no tour in America for professional pool. The BCA, being the representative for America to the world pool organization, is supposed to take on this task. They have turned their backs on it, and instead, they elect each other as Industry Member of the Year and go to banquets. Professional pool players were left out to dry, and it's every man for himself.

Then you have members of this pool forum blaming pro players for pool's problems. These pro players are trying to survive. While the industry members of the BCA eat filet mignon dinners, the pro players are thrown a bone with not much meat on it to share with not only themselves, but with non-American pro players. Mika went to a Chinese pool tournament on an American BCA slot. It's quite disgusting what the BCA is currently doing. In fact, it is outrageous, yet they will continue to grease each other's palms in their little good ol' boys' club a/k/a BCA.

eddie0776
01-17-2014, 09:01 AM
Jam, I have to ask. What in your opinion is the answer to fixing the Pro Pool situation? You have been there with Keith and seen what it takes to make it on the road...hustling, gambling and must place in tourneys to live. Do you think that pool will ever loose that image? I would love to see a Pro tour like PGA has with nice payouts, but I don't think that will ever come to be due to lack of interest by sponsers. I know CJ is working on something, but I am curious to hear what you think will fix it. I am not hear to demean any pro (POS or great person) lord knows I have known plenty of pros that do it on their own. I have backed and helped several pros, but it wasn't just because I liked them, I was looking for a ROI. Thats the business end of it and anyone who says otherwise is either well beyond means or not telling the truth.

nb92
01-17-2014, 09:37 AM
Look, if you know what the BCA was, then you should be outraged at what they have become.

In case you have not noticed, there is a difference between a professional player and a social player. Think about it.

I can play golf recreationally, or I can join a women's tour, with the key emphasis on "TOUR."

There ain't no tour in America for professional pool. The BCA, being the representative for America to the world pool organization, is supposed to take on this task. They have turned their backs on it, and instead, they elect each other as Industry Member of the Year and go to banquets. Professional pool players were left out to dry, and it's every man for himself.

Then you have members of this pool forum blaming pro players for pool's problems. These pro players are trying to survive. While the industry members of the BCA eat filet mignon dinners, the pro players are thrown a bone with not much meat on it to share with not only themselves, but with non-American pro players. Mika went to a Chinese pool tournament on an American BCA slot. It's quite disgusting what the BCA is currently doing. In fact, it is outrageous, yet they will continue to grease each other's palms in their little good ol' boys' club a/k/a BCA.

"Look" its a tweety bird... very aggressive and condescending.. but I appreciate your perspective from on high...

...anyway...

Ok I get your point we should sit around and ***** and moan about the BCA "They are the problem".

Great don't join the BCA, don't support member company's, let it be known dollars are being withheld. In fact YOU (I think you would be PERFECT) should start a Thread right here advocating a boycott of all BCA members until they show their commitment to creating Pro Pool in the US. List these members -- advertise against them! ask company reps to comment on why/how the can support or be a member of an organization that is so counterproductive. (Power to the People)

The problem is ... IMHO is there is NO DEMAND for a "Product" called Professional Pool in the USA. and to keep saying the Pro's this or the Pro's that.. is meaningless... who are they? buy what definition? is it like porn, I know it when I see it? There are pool tournaments that similar names win again and again but these are OPEN events so... these names are accomplished players YES.. but there is no "Professional Pool" in the US.... so do I feel bad for anyone that is highly accomplished at anything but yet can not earn a living at that talent, yes.

How about a thought experiment? If there was NO "Pro Pool" in the US (it isn't hard if you try..) how exactly would the pool world change? Accomplished players in the US, if they wish to make a living with their talent, would move. (ex. DAZ went from UK to Phillp to gain experience and now to here...) Could that path not lead to China or where ever the next meca is ?

If I am an oil worker I don't go to New York looking for work... I am in the Dakota's...

At the "Professional Level" the 1920" were possibly the peak, then a very brief time in the late 40's... then wilderness (The wilderness produced the stories of "The Road" because that is the only way they could survive if pool was the choice).. now were there periods of renewed interest - yes.. and local / regional tournaments provided a traveling player away to eat off their talent (60s, 70s, 80s). But even during these times 100% Professional Player was hard to come by, as most added to their income from gambling. Then the IPT .. the structure and dollars were what everyone believed a Professional Tour should look like ... but it was an illusion and not sustainable (why?).

The grieving process is hard and the "if a", "would a", "could a" 's kill you. The blame, the shame and finally acceptance. Pro Pool in the US is dead we have to understand this, if we are to understand the story....

Any how those are my thoughts... I leave you to yours... :thumbup:

JAM
01-17-2014, 09:41 AM
"Look" its a tweety bird... very aggressive and condescending.. but I appreciate your perspective from on high...

...anyway...

Ok I get your point we should sit around and ***** and moan about the BCA "They are the problem".

Great don't join the BCA, don't support member company's, let it be known dollars are being withheld. In fact YOU (I think you would be PERFECT) should start a Thread right here advocating a boycott of all BCA members until they show their commitment to creating Pro Pool in the US. List these members -- advertise against them! ask company reps to comment on why/how the can support or be a member of an organization that is so counterproductive. (Power to the People)

The problem is ... IMHO is there is NO DEMAND for a "Product" called Professional Pool in the USA. and to keep saying the Pro's this or the Pro's that.. is meaningless... who are they? buy what definition? is it like porn, I know it when I see it? There are pool tournaments that similar names win again and again but these are OPEN events so... these names are accomplished players YES.. but there is no "Professional Pool" in the US.... so do I feel bad for anyone that is highly accomplished at anything but yet can not earn a living at that talent, yes.

How about a thought experiment? If there was NO "Pro Pool" in the US (it isn't hard if you try..) how exactly would the pool world change? Accomplished players in the US, if they wish to make a living with their talent, would move. (ex. DAZ went from UK to Phillp to gain experience and now to here...) Could that path not lead to China or where ever the next meca is ?

If I am an oil worker I don't go to New York looking for work... I am in the Dakota's...

At the "Professional Level" the 1920" were possibly the peak, then a very brief time in the late 40's... then wilderness (The wilderness produced the stories of "The Road" because that is the only way they could survive if pool was the choice).. now were there periods of renewed interest - yes.. and local / regional tournaments provided a traveling player away to eat off their talent (60s, 70s, 80s). But even during these times 100% Professional Player was hard to come by, as most added to their income from gambling. Then the IPT .. the structure and dollars were what everyone believed a Professional Tour should look like ... but it was an illusion and not sustainable (why?).

The grieving process is hard and the "if a", "would a", "could a" 's kill you. The blame, the shame and finally acceptance. Pro Pool in the US is dead we have to understand this, if we are to understand the story....

Any those are my thoughts... I leave you to yours... :thumbup:

I'll leave the Looney Tunes to you. :)

JAM
01-17-2014, 09:42 AM
Jam, I have to ask. What in your opinion is the answer to fixing the Pro Pool situation? You have been there with Keith and seen what it takes to make it on the road...hustling, gambling and must place in tourneys to live. Do you think that pool will ever loose that image? I would love to see a Pro tour like PGA has with nice payouts, but I don't think that will ever come to be due to lack of interest by sponsers. I know CJ is working on something, but I am curious to hear what you think will fix it. I am not hear to demean any pro (POS or great person) lord knows I have known plenty of pros that do it on their own. I have backed and helped several pros, but it wasn't just because I liked them, I was looking for a ROI. Thats the business end of it and anyone who says otherwise is either well beyond means or not telling the truth.

I do have some ideas, but I can't take the time to write them right this minute, as I'm trying to finish up a project at work.

Tomorrow morning, when I'm fresh and sipping my Pleasant Morning Buzz, I'll be back. :)

eddie0776
01-17-2014, 09:46 AM
I do have some ideas, but I can't take the time to write them right this minute, as I'm trying to finish up a project at work.

Tomorrow morning, when I'm fresh and sipping my Pleasant Morning Buzz, I'll be back. :)

Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing some fresh ideas.

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 09:50 AM
well aren't you just a smart-ass this morning? (FYI, today's coffee talk is "the players ass." @ ABR thread)

i meant: now?

and i'm asking you, because you're CJ Wiley. and you're one of the last ones standing; you're still here. you, apparently did something right, in your career of being a professional pool player. and STILL are.

you get auto-respect for your achievements. you have to earn it, personally.... ;) but on this topic, i feel YOU, are probably qualified, the MOST - from everything that KK9 has taught me about Pool's History. what are (did) the failing "pros" doing wrong?

The "failing Pros" have been giving it away for free too long and it has caught up with them. 1996-99 we played a tournament on ESPN that was a GIGANTIC commercial for the Game. This made the Game more popular because it was in front of "main stream" America and sponsors were willing to play top dollar to support their chosen Pro.

There was a formula I was taught by Don Mackey to get pool on TV and one thing I can say about him is he knew "The Secret".....and I was lucky he shared it with me. When Don and I were both out of the Game no one ever called to see how we did it.....and pool all but disappeared from public view. Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques.

Now pool is mainly on streaming video going out to only pool fans (mainstream America barely ever watches sports on line) this money is no longer there, and "mainstream America" no longer sees pool (out of sight, out of mind). Without public TV in public bars, restaurants, sports bars, etc. any sport would eventually wither and die....pool's no exception, it's the "sample example".

Giving something away for free always has positive "short term results," and then it loses it's value and the "bottom drops out". We used to give away a free, happy hour buffet at my club in Dallas. By 10 PM we would have 1000 people go through the door and run up 10k in sales to get the night started.....then the customers with money started to be naturally filtered out by the ones that were "on a budget".

After 15 months were were left with the "bottom of the barrel" customers and had to make a significant change to get back the "top shelf" customers that would spend money again.

Pool's at this juncture, we have nobody left that will spend money on merchandise, and no "brand loyalty," so there's really nothing left......but to reinvent ourselves, and this takes courage and resources.

If there's a will there will be a way....the question is "who truly has the will?"

'The Game is the Teacher'

jalapus logan
01-17-2014, 10:32 AM
In the mean time pool players will be struggling like all past artistic disciples (musicians, artists, spiritual leaders, writers, actors, etc).

http://cdn.phillymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Starving_Artist_by_EbonyLace.png

But is the struggle worth it? I say yes. Ars gratia artis. If folks were content to wait on society to appreciate greatness or insight, then many of our modern amenities would not exist and historians would have much less ink to spill...

PINKLADY
01-17-2014, 11:08 AM
The "failing Pros" have been giving it away for free too long and it has caught up with them. 1996-99 we played a tournament on ESPN that was a GIGANTIC commercial for the Game. This made the Game more popular because it was in front of "main stream" America and sponsors were willing to play top dollar to support their chosen Pro.

There was a formula I was taught by Don Mackey to get pool on TV and one thing I can say about him is he knew "The Secret".....and I was lucky he shared it with me. When Don and I were both out of the Game no one ever called to see how we did it.....and pool all but disappeared from public view. Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques.

Now pool is mainly on streaming video going out to only pool fans (mainstream America barely ever watches sports on line) this money is no longer there, and "mainstream America" no longer sees pool (out of sight, out of mind). Without public TV in public bars, restaurants, sports bars, etc. any sport would eventually wither and die....pool's no exception, it's the "sample example".

Giving something away for free always has positive "short term results," and then it loses it's value and the "bottom drops out". We used to give away a free, happy hour buffet at my club in Dallas. By 10 PM we would have 1000 people go through the door and run up 10k in sales to get the night started.....then the customers with money started to be naturally filtered out by the ones that were "on a budget".

After 15 months were were left with the "bottom of the barrel" customers and had to make a significant change to get back the "top shelf" customers that would spend money again.

Pool's at this juncture, we have nobody left that will spend money on merchandise, and no "brand loyalty," so there's really nothing left......but to reinvent ourselves, and this takes courage and resources.

If there's a will there will be a way....the question is "who truly has the will?"

'The Game is the Teacher'

i'll take that as a "no".
:cool:

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 12:42 PM
For those that have said that taking on a job would restrict tournament play.

I have been at my present job for close to 3 years, with the exception of time off due to a car accident.

I qualified for 3 weeks vacation and it doesn't take long to get up 4, 5 and 6.

Start a job early in life and you can qualify for 6 weeks paid time off.

I get one week of scheduled work and the rest call ins. I can work full time or juggle my hours like I usually do. I generally know how many hours I can put in before I get hit hard and am just paying the government to work.

I work less hours and make a bit more than a full time employee, because of my employment status. I have less deductions.

I mean thats not the norm for most people but there are jobs out there that can be modified somewhat to suit a persons needs.

There are jobs like that out there, thing is, one has to go and find them.

If you have a trade, you can go to the Union Hall and take on a job, when thats over, you don't have to go in until the next time you feel like working.

Drive a taxi. Those shifts are pretty flexible. Go in and grind for a few days and take the rest of the week off.

There are lots of part time jobs around where you can pretty much make your own hours and weeks.

Part time Sales for instance. The more you put into it, the more you can make in less time.

So, the idea to me, that a person can't work so as to be available for practice time and tournaments is a little far fetched.

Good excuse tho if you are looking for one so you don't have to work.

Black-Balled
01-17-2014, 12:50 PM
For those that have said that taking on a job would restrict tournament play.

I have been at my present job for close to 3 years, with the exception of time off due to a car accident.

I qualified for 3 weeks vacation and it doesn't take long to get up 4, 5 and 6.

Start a job early in life and you can qualify for 6 weeks paid time off.

I get one week of scheduled work and the rest call ins. I can work full time or juggle my hours like I usually do. I generally know how many hours I can put in before I get hit hard and am just paying the government to work.

I work less hours and make a bit more than a full time employee, because of my employment status. I have less deductions.

I mean thats not the norm for most people but there are jobs out there that can be modified somewhat to suit a persons needs.

There are jobs like that out there, thing is, one has to go and find them.

If you have a trade, you can go to the Union Hall and take on a job, when thats over, you don't have to go in until the next time you feel like working.

Drive a taxi. Those shifts are pretty flexible. Go in and grind for a few days and take the rest of the week off.

There are lots of part time jobs around where you can pretty much make your own hours and weeks.

Part time Sales for instance. The more you put into it, the more you can make in less time.

So, the idea to me, that a person can't work so as to be available for practice time and tournaments is a little far fetched.

Good excuse tho if you are looking for one so you don't have to work.

Or the other side of the coin...I will say more when I get a moment!!!!!!

naji
01-17-2014, 12:58 PM
How many pro players have jobs and still compete at a high level? Do you guys think players can work and play? I wish players didnt have to but with these tough times there isnt enough money in the game right now.

Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.

bdorman
01-17-2014, 01:33 PM
Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.

Of course one-pocket is actually a children's game. My six-year old nephew can make those "short easy shots". His five-year old sister runs racks of 14.1 because it has lots of short easy shots too.

I don't have any idea what this has to do with the thread topic, but...

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 01:41 PM
I think he just meant practice wise. Once a person obtains the level of playing that a Pro does, it doesn't take that long to warm up for a game or Tourney.

So the idea of having to practice how ever many hours a day to keep in shape and not being able to work a job because of it.

Thats how I read it anyway.

eddie0776
01-17-2014, 01:51 PM
I think he just meant practice wise. Once a person obtains the level of playing that a Pro does, it doesn't take that long to warm up for a game or Tourney.

So the idea of having to practice how ever many hours a day to keep in shape and not being able to work a job because of it.

Thats how I read it anyway.

I think I will have to disagree, ask CJ how much he has had to play just to get where he is now compared to the CJ of the 90s. I am sure he would agree he is at least the 8 ball under his old self. I think to stay in top shape you have to play every day and play competitive fairly often to stay sharp. I believe that the pros can work and keep sharp, but not a 8-5 40hr week regular job. If they are like JA and have a business of their own like a pool room it is very possible to achieve working and staying sharp.

AtLarge
01-17-2014, 02:24 PM
... Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques. ...

Matt Braun and his wife sold Billiards International and all of its intellectual properties to Gregg Hovey (former Olhausen president) two years ago.

For 2013, the men's Challenge of Champions was dropped from the events produced by Billiards International for showing on ESPN. The Women's Tournament of Champions, the World Cup of Trick Shots, and Trick Shot Magic were played in 2013 and were moved from the Mohegan Sun casino in CT to Springfield, MA. Hovey's current deal with ESPN calls for just 9 hours of programming per year (3 events). The women's and trick shot events always drew higher ratings than the men's event, which, therefore, was axed.

Hovey is hopeful that he will be able to add events for 2014 and bring back the Challenge of Champions.

Billiards Digest.]

Wedge
01-17-2014, 02:49 PM
Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

watchez
01-17-2014, 03:25 PM
Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

Whenever I saw Louie play his best it was when he would ask one of us for a bankroll to put in his pocket while he played. Gave him a comfort level.

You just had to keep a closer eye on him after that though. :wink:

Same goes for having a job. Not playing worrying if you win or lose and you might be sleeping in your car or losing your car could weigh on a lot of people.

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 04:50 PM
But is the struggle worth it? I say yes. Ars gratia artis. If folks were content to wait on society to appreciate greatness or insight, then many of our modern amenities would not exist and historians would have much less ink to spill...

Yes, it's worth it, without struggle there would be no victory, without pain there would be no relief and without death there would be no life....the greatest ingredient in any success story is sacrifice - the situation in pro pool is not the exception, it's the sample example.

'The Game is the Teacher'

http://sayw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/the-important-thing-is-to-be-able-at-any-moment-to-sacrifice-what-we-are-for-what-we-could-become-610x457.jpg

CJ Wiley
01-17-2014, 04:58 PM
I think I will have to disagree, ask CJ how much he has had to play just to get where he is now compared to the CJ of the 90s. I am sure he would agree he is at least the 8 ball under his old self. I think to stay in top shape you have to play every day and play competitive fairly often to stay sharp. I believe that the pros can work and keep sharp, but not a 8-5 40hr week regular job. If they are like JA and have a business of their own like a pool room it is very possible to achieve working and staying sharp.

Yes, that's true, to play that extra ball better I'd have to gamble three weeks every day. Practicing has it's ups and downs, and it will not get me in top competitive gear.....this takes playing champion players on a regular basis which isn't possible at this time.

I also believe that playing "one foul" rules is limiting to your overall game. To play the absolute top level someone must play the way the game was intended.....2 foul shoot out rules so you have to fine tune shot making, especially long shots off the end rail.

markgw
01-17-2014, 05:00 PM
Or the other side of the coin...I will say more when I get a moment!!!!!!


I think you can work a full time job and play pool. I don't thing you can work a full time job and play great though. Where are the practice hours gonna fit in? Shane hits ball 6 and 8 hours a day. He practices more than everyone which results in "great pool player". This game is so ridiculously tough that I believe it's asking way to much to play the game at a top level, working full time...

naji
01-17-2014, 07:24 PM
Of course one-pocket is actually a children's game. My six-year old nephew can make those "short easy shots". His five-year old sister runs racks of 14.1 because it has lots of short easy shots too.

I don't have any idea what this has to do with the thread topic, but...

My point is 9, 10 ball games requires high skill level in making balls and position play. If a player does not have the time to keep practicing 1st thing that suffers stroke which will effect long range shots and shots that needs to be hit with speed. But one pocket tends to keep part time pro players a live and kicking.

CJ Wiley
01-18-2014, 12:04 AM
Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.

When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

PINKLADY
01-18-2014, 02:08 AM
When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

tap, tap, tap!

.

JAM
01-18-2014, 04:14 AM
When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

But, C.J., your job was in a pool room. That is different than working a 9-5 job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street and trying to keep in stroke to compete in, say, Qatar or Colombia or Indonesia or Korea or Philippines. ;)

I do, however, believe there are some players who maybe have been playing since they were a child and have hit hundreds of thousands of balls in their life, that it doesn't take too long for them to obtain their championship stroke.

Today, though, to compete with Filipinos, Asian countrymen, and Europeans, one has to be pretty sharp with their skills to win. My belief is that a person who's working a job 9-5 and practicing 20 hours a week won't cut the mustard against, say, Thorsten or the Filipino champion of the month. In this regard, why pursue a pool career or profession, one that would cost about 20- to $30,000 per year to compete around the world if you're flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street, only to lose when you get there.

IOW, there is no way to make a living in pool if you're making minimum wage in a 9-5 job. Again, most traditional employers would not like an employee to take off every month to attend a pool tournament overseas. I guess it's a Catch-22.

JAM
01-18-2014, 04:39 AM
Jam, I have to ask. What in your opinion is the answer to fixing the Pro Pool situation? You have been there with Keith and seen what it takes to make it on the road...hustling, gambling and must place in tourneys to live. Do you think that pool will ever loose that image? I would love to see a Pro tour like PGA has with nice payouts, but I don't think that will ever come to be due to lack of interest by sponsers. I know CJ is working on something, but I am curious to hear what you think will fix it. I am not hear to demean any pro (POS or great person) lord knows I have known plenty of pros that do it on their own. I have backed and helped several pros, but it wasn't just because I liked them, I was looking for a ROI. Thats the business end of it and anyone who says otherwise is either well beyond means or not telling the truth.

Eddie, Lou Butera several decades ago, when he was following the tournament trail, stated publicly that Brunswick and the other industry members of that era should be hosting and sponoring annual tournaments for professional play. To bring up some of today's current names in the industry, thinking like Lou Butera, he meant to have like a Brunswick Open, Gabriel Championship, Rasson 9-Ball Tournament, Annual Simonis Tournament for the Champions, Diamond 9-Ball Tournament, et cetera, et cetera. Even when Lou Butera was hitting 'em, the industry members didn't seem to come together to support professional pool, though they did infuse more money then than they do today in professional pool.

You go to the industry and suggest this, and they might reply, "What's in it for me?" kind of the same replies you hear professional pool players touting today when asked to be loyal to existing pool promoters by making their presence at the event. There is most definitely proverbial line in the sand here, and it is probably more like a Berlin Wall today, thanks to Bonus Ball's deliberate-with-malice-aforethought segregation of Bonus Ball players and the rest of the existing fractured pool industry in America.

In order to make all sides content, one needs to develop a business plan that will benefit all parties, and this ain't easy, considering pool has a track record. If a prospective non-pool-industry sponsor was to read this forum, they wouldn't touch pool with a 10-foot pole.

A 12-stop tour, one a month, is doable. The question is how much would it cost. To ship tables in, eqiupment, rentals, venue costs, et cetera, is sky high. However, I do wonder if there are 12 pool rooms in this country willing to host a tour stop if there could be an ROI for their table loss time.

I can't do the math right now, as math ain't my strong suit, but I think a 64-man event is possible for each stop. As an aside, Joe Tucker is currently running a tour which could be used as a platform for qualifying or eligibility to compete in one of these stops.

Advertisement is key to get the message out there. So often in the pool world, nobody advertises and spreads the word, and when the events happen, very few show up. Pool needs deseparately a PR machine. This is very, very important before anything transpires. This prospective professional pool tour must have a PR person behind them. In my opinion, this is what has plagued pool for decades is no PR beforehand.

Of course, non-pool-industry sponsorship is the gold ring. It must start out small. Once the numbers are all in alignment, then you approach the pool industry members, show them the business plan, let them see the numbers, and ask them which of the 12 stops would they be willing to hang their name on.

Now, before somebody rips apart my hypothetical business plan here, this is a very rough draft, which would need input from several entities to make it work, several entities with expertise, with public relations being at the top and VERY IMPORTANT!

Now let's get to the players themselves. Of course, there has to be a dress code. That's a given. My idea for a dress code for pool would be collared shorts (no T-shirts), slacks (no jeans), and leather shoes (no athletic shoes), much like a golfer. Good opportunity here for clothing manufacturers and a shoe company. ;)

The BCA Open used to be a 64-man field, with half going to the Europeans and other international players, and the other half going to Americans. The selection was skewed and unfair, the times I observed it. :(

My tour concept would reserve, say, 10 spots for Mark Wilson's college crew, 10 spots for Joe Tucker's tour, 10 spots for Shannon and Marge's tour, 10 spots for Mike Zuglan's Joss tour, et cetera. My thought is that a non-American cannot complete on this tour unless they play in one of the above tournaments. They can't just fly in from Germany, get off the plane, and play in this 12-stop tour.

If the business plan was written out to show a profit to pool room owners, good exposure to pool industry members because of the quality advertisement in online, print, and TV media, and new non-pool-industry member wanting to devote some funds to get exposure, this could work. Again, a strong PR person is needed to effect this to happen.

Somebody has to sell this to the pool room owners and make the numbers work so that they benefit from the exposure to the media as well as an ROI for each event. Pool rooms I know of that might be able to handle this would be Snooker's in Providence, RI, Champion's in Frederick, MD, Q-Master's in Virginia, Fargo's pool room (can't remember the name of the town), et cetera. I'm only familiar with my side of the country. I'm sure there others in the Midwest and on the West Coast. We only need 12 to make the 12-stop tour.

I can assure you that the professional players and aspiring pros would follow this tour like trained little pigs. This tour could be a ranking system. A business plan would need to be developed, and there must be a strong PR machine. Before big events, pros could put on exhibitions in the town where the pool room is, which is excellent advertising. Getting the word out there is key. ;) The funds to pay for the pro's exhibition would come out of the previous tournament's purse. The winner and/or runner up would be required to put on this exhibition before the next event, and they would be paid for it as a part of their tournament winnings.

What's going on today in the pool world is not attractive to new money and/or new players and/or new pool room owners. Maybe start out the first year with 32 players and move up. I never would like to see this player roster be as large as the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. Again, a strong PR machine is key. This is where Bonus Ball screwed up, and the IPT, well, their problem lie in too much too soon. That is why I say maybe start out with 32 players.

So there you have my thoughts on this fine Saturday morning. I'm sure the Negative Nellies and Doubting Thomases will shoot me down, but that's okay.

nb92
01-18-2014, 05:17 AM
..... I'm sure the Negative Nellies and Doubting Thomases will shoot me down, but that's okay.

I for one will not do that... I like the basic structure.... could even throw in something like the APT was doing with the East Coast Championship ..... have 12 events the top four finisher in each qualify for a larger event. possibly use dollars from the 12 events to help fund the larger end of year ... add to that 16 seeded (sp?) players and there is a 64 man field at a year end event.

I like it ... start small... kind of old school (the Mike and Buddy show days....) and see what happens:thumbup:

PETROBOY
01-18-2014, 05:48 AM
I like this idea as well jam, small is the way to go maybe with a 64 player field the bottom 4 would have to qualify in a monthly qualifier tournament and this would allow new players a chance to get in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

JAM
01-18-2014, 06:19 AM
I like this idea as well jam, small is the way to go maybe with a 64 player field the bottom 4 would have to qualify in a monthly qualifier tournament and this would allow new players a chance to get in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

The beauty of this tour, limiting it to a 32- or 64-man field, is that it could all be accomplished on a weekend, allowing the player to hold down a part-time or full-time job. IOW, they could supplement their pool income by working or, in the case of Mark Wilson's crew, going to school to get an education.. :)

Personally, I'd like to limit membership to Americans only, but I know that won't go very far on this forum. :p

My reasoning, however, for doing so is to cultivate a new breed of American pros. As I have stated many times, the existing lot of American pros is diminishing. We need to built up our stock. USA, ALL THE WAY! ;)

naji
01-18-2014, 06:33 AM
When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

Thanks CJ; i guess the question is the definition of championship pool, to what level? Consistent practice makes it easy on the brain to fetch all check lists quickly and accurately; I would agree with you if players know themselves, but a lot of players do not, i site an example, when we are young we would do things like jump, or lift heavy weight, or......, now if we attempt the same thing we would have a sore back, or twisted neck or something; in pool, when a player practices daily for long time, and go to tournaments regularly, he shoots fast and quick in thinking; the same player if he does not practice as much, will copy the same style; but will proof fatal. Human memory needs refresh all the time to enable it to quickly fetch those pool check lists; with rusty players, slowing down the speed and take time to think will do magic.
I know some will say, if you change your style of play you will be doomed, but not in this case. I wish Efren slow down his game a bit, i am sure it will help him not miss much!!! IMO

jalapus logan
01-18-2014, 06:34 AM
Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

And he still finds the time to write the most amazing poetry!

SCCues
01-18-2014, 06:57 AM
Getting enough time off to go to tournaments and keeping your job is one of the biggest problems.

PETROBOY
01-18-2014, 08:20 AM
The beauty of this tour, limiting it to a 32- or 64-man field, is that it could all be accomplished on a weekend, allowing the player to hold down a part-time or full-time job. IOW, they could supplement their pool income by working or, in the case of Mark Wilson's crew, going to school to get an education.. :)

Personally, I'd like to limit membership to Americans only, but I know that won't go very far on this forum. :p

My reasoning, however, for doing so is to cultivate a new breed of American pros. As I have stated many times, the existing lot of American pros is diminishing. We need to built up our stock. USA, ALL THE WAY! ;)

Well as a Canadian I would love to see some of our top shooters there. The biggest problem I see with North American pros is they don't compete enough against top level competition. You can practice all day everyday but unless you play against world class players you can't get to that level so I think you have to let some world players in to make sure the level of play is the best it can be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

nb92
01-18-2014, 10:15 AM
.....You can practice all day everyday but unless you play against world class players you can't get to that level so I think you have to let some world players in to make sure the level of play is the best it can be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Agree with this! A great example of how homogenous play can become and then change rapidly after adding new blood is to watch the pros kicking and safety play before 1985 then watch after 85..... BCM / ACM (Before Cesar Morales / After Cesar Morales) :grin-square:

CJ Wiley
01-19-2014, 04:38 AM
There are many jobs Pros could do other than "flipping burgers or selling hot dogs"......those jobs represent 0.000000000001% of the possibilities.

I started my first business when I was 9 years old selling sno cones. This business was built up through the years to one that required a trailer and a menu of slushies, sno cones, sloppy joes, candy bars, and various sandwiches.

The bar and restaurant business is a more complicated version of the sno cone business. There's still the same basic component of profit centers, service orientation, inventories and management (with a few more employees). Any Pro player could fit into this line of work, I've hired a few Pro players through the years and they did just fine.

The perfect job for a Pro pool player may be in the hospitality industry, or sales. One thing that's always been said about accomplished players is they can "live like millionaires without the hassle of too much money".......'The Game is the Teacher' ;)



But, C.J., your job was in a pool room. That is different than working a 9-5 job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street and trying to keep in stroke to compete in, say, Qatar or Colombia or Indonesia or Korea or Philippines. ;)

I do, however, believe there are some players who maybe have been playing since they were a child and have hit hundreds of thousands of balls in their life, that it doesn't take too long for them to obtain their championship stroke.

Today, though, to compete with Filipinos, Asian countrymen, and Europeans, one has to be pretty sharp with their skills to win. My belief is that a person who's working a job 9-5 and practicing 20 hours a week won't cut the mustard against, say, Thorsten or the Filipino champion of the month. In this regard, why pursue a pool career or profession, one that would cost about 20- to $30,000 per year to compete around the world if you're flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street, only to lose when you get there.

IOW, there is no way to make a living in pool if you're making minimum wage in a 9-5 job. Again, most traditional employers would not like an employee to take off every month to attend a pool tournament overseas. I guess it's a Catch-22.

MnHunter
01-19-2014, 07:44 AM
Absolutely they can. With my job if I want I can be off 6 months of the year and still make 60k plus. It's all up to them but from my experience most pool players that play that good or have the potential to play that well feel they are above working. Personally it's sad to see all the broke young pool players mooching off their friends just to get by till their next big score.

Tony_in_MD
01-19-2014, 08:21 AM
C.J. I truly believe that you could sell snow cones to Eskimos.
:grin:


There are many jobs Pros could do other than "flipping burgers or selling hot dogs"......those jobs represent 0.000000000001% of the possibilities.

I started my first business when I was 9 years old selling sno cones. This business was built up through the years to one that required a trailer and a menu of slushies, sno cones, sloppy joes, candy bars, and various sandwiches.

The bar and restaurant business is a more complicated version of the sno cone business. There's still the same basic component of profit centers, service orientation, inventories and management (with a few more employees). Any Pro player could fit into this line of work, I've hired a few Pro players through the years and they did just fine.

The perfect job for a Pro pool player may be in the hospitality industry, or sales. One thing that's always been said about accomplished players is they can "live like millionaires without the hassle of too much money".......'The Game is the Teacher' ;)

Birriards
01-19-2014, 01:00 PM
But, C.J., your job was in a pool room. That is different than working a 9-5 job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street and trying to keep in stroke to compete in, say, Qatar or Colombia or Indonesia or Korea or Philippines. ;)

I do, however, believe there are some players who maybe have been playing since they were a child and have hit hundreds of thousands of balls in their life, that it doesn't take too long for them to obtain their championship stroke.

Today, though, to compete with Filipinos, Asian countrymen, and Europeans, one has to be pretty sharp with their skills to win. My belief is that a person who's working a job 9-5 and practicing 20 hours a week won't cut the mustard against, say, Thorsten or the Filipino champion of the month. In this regard, why pursue a pool career or profession, one that would cost about 20- to $30,000 per year to compete around the world if you're flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street, only to lose when you get there.

IOW, there is no way to make a living in pool if you're making minimum wage in a 9-5 job. Again, most traditional employers would not like an employee to take off every month to attend a pool tournament overseas. I guess it's a Catch-22.

I don't know that the answer to this changes whether a pro is working or not. At this point in time, there really isn't any money in pro pool anyways. Seems to be less than a handful are really making it this way so I would think the answer to it is the same regardless, falling along the lines of love of the game and competition, wanting to be the best, etc. It really is more of a passion than a money making venture for most of the pros out there as it is.

I think CJ's post was a good example of some practical ways that a pro can make both work. To further his example, I know a girl that is trying to qualify for the winter Olympic team in 2018 in luge who moved to Lake Placid to train. Some of her money comes from donations/fundraisers, but she has to work in a local restaurant to make ends meet. Her time requirements aren't any less than those of a pool player between weight training and time on the track. It is possible.

genomachino
01-19-2014, 01:21 PM
In order for a pro player to be at his best you need to put in the hours for sure.

Not hours after work when your totally beat. Time when your at your potential as far as skill level and peak peformance are there.

You need to play tired also to get used to building up your endurance but not all the time..

It is a balancing act for sure.

There are so many players in the world that are capable of playing on the professional level but just can't get to that level because of other commitments involving life.

It's not hard to see who has put in the time and who hasn't. The one that hasn't just can't get there when that one shot has to be made for all the bananas. The player that has fires that shot in right on the money.

JumpinJoe
01-19-2014, 01:38 PM
In order for a pro player to be at his best you need to put in the hours for sure.

Not hours after work when your totally beat. Time when your at your potential as far as skill level and peak peformance are there.

You need to play tired also to get used to building up your endurance but not all the time..

It is a balancing act for sure.

There are so many players in the world that are capable of playing on the professional level but just can't get to that level because of other commitments involving life.

It's not hard to see who has put in the time and who hasn't. The one that hasn't just can't get there when that one shot has to be made for all the bananas. The player that has fires that shot in right on the money.


Some of them that put in the time still can't fire it in when all the bananas are on the line.

CJ Wiley
01-19-2014, 01:48 PM
Yes, indeed.....no matter how much time someone puts in they will still fit into one of the two categories:

1) Those that develop a system to come with it for "all the bananas".

2) Those that {find a way to} slip on the peels of "all the bananas".

No amount of ordinary practice will guarantee which one the player "falls" under. ;)

In order for a pro player to be at his best you need to put in the hours for sure.

Not hours after work when your totally beat. Time when your at your potential as far as skill level and peak peformance are there.

You need to play tired also to get used to building up your endurance but not all the time..

It is a balancing act for sure.

There are so many players in the world that are capable of playing on the professional level but just can't get to that level because of other commitments involving life.

It's not hard to see who has put in the time and who hasn't. The one that hasn't just can't get there when that one shot has to be made for all the bananas. The player that has fires that shot in right on the money.


Some of them that put in the time still can't fire it in when all the bananas are on the line.