PDA

View Full Version : The day the fortunes of pool reversed?


Celtic
01-16-2014, 04:16 PM
We all know the game is in a bad spot today. We have no pro tour, we have few events, payouts on the events we have pale in comparison to the payouts of the game ten, twenty, and even 30 years ago not even taking into account inflation.

I have always wondered just where the game might be today had this not taken place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Where might we have been today had betting on pool matches been able to continue? How much sponsorship and support might that have created from the casinos? What types of marketing avenues might that have opened up?

I do think that this might be the day that pool had two paths it could have taken, and we got dragged onto the wrong path and have never been able to go back.

ironman
01-16-2014, 04:50 PM
We all know the game is in a bad spot today. We have no pro tour, we have few events, payouts on the events we have pale in comparison to the payouts of the game ten, twenty, and even 30 years ago not even taking into account inflation.

I have always wondered just where the game might be today had this not taken place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Where might we have been today had betting on pool matches been able to continue? How much sponsorship and support might that have created from the casinos? What types of marketing avenues might that have opened up?

I do think that this might be the day that pool had two paths it could have taken, and we got dragged onto the wrong path and have never been able to go back.

In the early 70's there was a lot of action and money floating around the rooms. I remeber well going out to the bars and making easily 50 0r 60 rach night and pretty good money in those days in Denver.
Suddenly it just dried up and stopped. Why" I am not sure. at night the pool rooms were empty nd action dried up too. I remeber the leagues gettinig popualar about his time and it seemed everyone was playing for nothing.
Oddly my biggest scores came about this time. and i scratched my head s I knew I was getting very lucky. I had won about 40,000 off three different guys and though grateful the pool rooms were pooping out. It just was not the same.
Roadies just stopped coming through and when they did, they were tight with the money.
The only place we found pickings were in West Texas and away we went ans spent a lot of time there.
What is the blame? I really do not know except that often things just change and without much explanation.

Agent 99
01-16-2014, 04:51 PM
We all know the game is in a bad spot today. We have no pro tour, we have few events, payouts on the events we have pale in comparison to the payouts of the game ten, twenty, and even 30 years ago not even taking into account inflation.

I have always wondered just where the game might be today had this not taken place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Where might we have been today had betting on pool matches been able to continue? How much sponsorship and support might that have created from the casinos? What types of marketing avenues might that have opened up?

I do think that this might be the day that pool had two paths it could have taken, and we got dragged onto the wrong path and have never been able to go back.

Gambling made, and is still making the NFL a huge television success. People will watch what they bet on every time.

The casinos will promote any wagering when they have the right handle.

It's all about TV ratings today, and gambling equals strong ratings.

Johnnyt
01-16-2014, 05:02 PM
This just wasn't another nail in pro pool pine box, it was a fn railroad spike. Johnnyt

MVPCues
01-16-2014, 05:27 PM
I remember the first time I watched this back then. I was too young to understand what had happened, but I couldn't get over the misses. I kept wondering how he could miss the combination so badly.

What I don't remember is how much/if Hall played off in order to get Mike to the hill first. Was it apparent there was some business the entire match? What about the other matches with Mike?

The Renfro
01-16-2014, 05:38 PM
I actually had someone bring that incident up a few weeks ago and they were lobbying for removing/banning all participants from the BCA Hall of Fame...

I kind of feel like that's too harsh but I can see the argument that from a sponsors standpoint putting these guys in the hall looks like we approve of that type of act as a norm....

Maybe I will do a poll and see how opinions line up on such an extreme idea... Maybe that would be step 1 for upping the image of the sport..... That was the argument being made at least.....

CHris

Celtic
01-16-2014, 05:44 PM
I actually had someone bring that incident up a few weeks ago and they were lobbying for removing/banning all participants from the BCA Hall of Fame...

I kind of feel like that's too harsh but I can see the argument that from a sponsors standpoint putting these guys in the hall looks like we approve of that type of act as a norm....

Maybe I will do a poll and see how opinions line up on such an extreme idea... Maybe that would be step 1 for upping the image of the sport..... That was the argument being made at least.....

CHris

If this was any other sport that would not even be a debate.

iusedtoberich
01-16-2014, 05:48 PM
IMO, that incident did not change the course of pool in the SLIGHTEST. If it didn't happen then, it would have happened the next tournament that had a real book. In fact, it would have happened EVERY SINGLE tournament that had a book, until the book caught on.

It was never a matter of if it happened, it was always a matter of when.

Today, with the current pro's, and the current financial situations, the exact same thing would happen.

It is what it is.

My 3 cents of reality into this situation....

JJ94
01-16-2014, 05:54 PM
This is not what killed pro pool. It sure didn't help. What did kill pro pool was Earl walking out of the finals of the Camel Tour event at Romines in Milwaukee.

bdorman
01-16-2014, 05:58 PM
At that time pool was a weak man, stumbling. The fix knocked him over.

Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from ever playing professional baseball again (although a later investigation exonerated him). Pete Rose was kicked out of the baseball Hall of Fame.

There was no serious investigation of the pool match fix. All the players happily played out their careers.

So, the entertainment industry concluded that if pool couldn't, or wouldn't, police itself, it would find other games to use as entertainment and betting.

deanoc
01-16-2014, 07:06 PM
sadly this is almost the norm

you ask if the penalty is too severe

I was in Dallas in the 60s,a notorius criminal named Charlie Boyd
,at The Cotton Bowling Palace,texas best pool room,came in and robbed Boston Shorty
who had just won some money

Charlie merely stepped in the rest room,

.pulled his gun took the money and returned to the pool room

About 2 weeks later ,Cornbred red came and won some money,went to the rest room and Charlie relieved him of his bankroll,
Charlie returned to the pool room,Red came out and Charlie called for him to come over and he introduced him to a friend of his(who might still be alive and I am too scared to mention by name)
Charlie introduces Red as a great pool player who he just robbed

Theyshook hand and exchanged pleasantries but Red was unhappy about losing hisbankroll so he strolls to the front counter and explainsthe story to the owner.

He pages Charlie to the front desk and explains that the cotton Palace is trying to sponsor
a pool tournament,he patiently explains that no one will come is Charlie keeps heisting the players.

Then ,almost apologetically ,informs Charlie,that he will have to give up his pool card.
You
need to understand this was a class place where only members could play.
Charlie hung his head like a school kid getting a detention
for chewing gum and turned his card in.

Then Charlie went back to the pool room to sweat the action


Do you think his punishment was too great?

Blue Hog ridr
01-16-2014, 07:13 PM
So what happened to Charlie. Did someone eventually take him to the alley and return the favor?

No matter how mean and tough you think that you are, there is always someone meaner.

deanoc
01-16-2014, 07:23 PM
charlie died in prison

CJ Wiley
01-16-2014, 11:00 PM
This match had 0% effect on Pro Pool.....I was playing every tournament at this time and got heavily into it the following years.

We played in the Challenge of Champions after this year and they were still booking the matches. I was went off at 5/2 but didn't make any bets. To this day I've never bet on one of my pool matches.....I always had a separation between tournaments and gambling.

There was controversy back then about doing "savers," but nothing worse. The PGA had penalized Jack Nicklaus and a few others doing savers in the "Skin's Game" too.

Many people know they fix boxing matches on a regular basis, and NBA now has a rule you can't even criticize ref's calls on air......go figure. ;) "The World's a Stage, and the Athletes are Actors".

We all know the game is in a bad spot today. We have no pro tour, we have few events, payouts on the events we have pale in comparison to the payouts of the game ten, twenty, and even 30 years ago not even taking into account inflation.

I have always wondered just where the game might be today had this not taken place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Where might we have been today had betting on pool matches been able to continue? How much sponsorship and support might that have created from the casinos? What types of marketing avenues might that have opened up?

I do think that this might be the day that pool had two paths it could have taken, and we got dragged onto the wrong path and have never been able to go back.

Straightpool_99
01-16-2014, 11:44 PM
...................

trob
01-17-2014, 02:37 AM
If this was any other sport that would not even be a debate.

absolutely spot on... Just ask Pete Rose!

Blue Hog ridr
01-17-2014, 03:24 AM
This match had 0% effect on Pro Pool.

In Vegas or elsewhere. I find this statement very hard to believe.

Do you think that the Vegas Books were born last night? Yeah, they screwed themselves large for any future in Vegas.

Sure, they went Pfffft, and wrote it off. But to think there were no hard feelings for the next 100 or so years is underestimating the after shock.

There was lots to be made in Vegas. Certain people snap a finger and people jump, but not if you bite the hand that feeds you.

You want a movie made in your casino, you make a call, a movie gets made.

Pretty much what happened.

Johnnyt
01-17-2014, 04:49 AM
I never been in a casino in my life, but I know how they work and what group ran them 30 years ago. Just about everybody in the pool industry has dropped the ball over and over again for the past 50 years that I have been into pool. Someone said in one of the above threads that "The Big Dump" made no difference in the down fall of pro pool. If they didn't dump the first time, it would happen the 2nd time. He might be right, but if there was a STRONG billiard organization at the time maybe they would ban anyone for life caught doing that.

Pool has had so many chances to grow into something players, promoters, and almost all in the industry make a good living and be proud of what they do. Most of the pro players have no business sense and the few that do, instead of helping their group are all saying "I got mine and fu." Before anything will even start to get better an organization has to be formed, either with pro players and promoters that want grow pool as a group or someone with a lot of money that runs pool like a business with my way or the door attitude. I'm sad to say I'll never see pro pool grow any bigger in my lifetime. Johnnyt

FairladyZ
01-17-2014, 10:12 AM
I never been in a casino in my life, but I know how they work and what group ran them 30 years ago. Just about everybody in the pool industry has dropped the ball over and over again for the past 50 years that I have been into pool. Someone said in one of the above threads that "The Big Dump" made no difference in the down fall of pro pool. If they didn't dump the first time, it would happen the 2nd time. He might be right, but if there was a STRONG billiard organization at the time maybe they would ban anyone for life caught doing that.

Pool has had so many chances to grow into something players, promoters, and almost all in the industry make a good living and be proud of what they do. Most of the pro players have no business sense and the few that do, instead of helping their group are all saying "I got mine and fu." Before anything will even start to get better an organization has to be formed, either with pro players and promoters that want grow pool as a group or someone with a lot of money that runs pool like a business with my way or the door attitude. I'm sad to say I'll never see pro pool grow any bigger in my lifetime. Johnnyt
100%. The problem goes beyond pro players though....it comes down to you and me, the ones at home playing in our private pool rooms, and the ones living in a city lucky enough to still have a pool hall. Without an audience & fans, a pro player is nothing. Furthermore, watching a game of pool is not like watching a NFL game. While I love the game, I'd much rather play it than watch it on TV....its not the most exciting thing to be a spectator to....and that is the number one killer of pool on TV, not gambling. Gambling scandals would add drama, which in most scenarios would heighten popularity..... Pool is nowhere near that point....its just a boring game televised, it doesn't get ratings.

ironman
01-17-2014, 11:00 AM
This just wasn't another nail in pro pool pine box, it was a fn railroad spike. Johnnyt
Iunderstand and repect yur stance here, but i do not agree. When around larger events and player gather and talk about olden days this topic never comes up and most of the younger players, really know nothing about it.
It seems to me, we are the ones who will not let it die and go away.
Danny went to this event and i did not, He called me late that night to tell me wht had happened and was seemingly in shock. Then the stories began to spread like wild fire.
The next thing I knew there was a story going around about Mike massy saving everyones ass and avoiding some real grief. I asked Mike about this i person about 5 years ago and he did not want to talk about it. I let it drop right there and now i wish we would just drop it too. Why pur gas on the fire?

StraightPoolIU
01-17-2014, 11:03 AM
This topic comes up regularly here, and I understand why. It was a pretty horrible thing for the players involved to do. However, extrapolating it out to the conclusion that it was the reason for the current state of pro pool is anything but a slam dunk. For anyone who has ever taken an academic history course or studied history you probably know that such arguments are called counterfactuals. In other words what would happen if X did or did not happen. They are a lot of fun to debate, and many good alternate history novels and stories have been written on such premises. However, as a serious academic excercise they are more or less dismissed. In something that is multifaceted with a lot of variables you really can't but that much weight on just one occurrence or event. I'm not saying that this discussion forum is an academic classroom. Certainly it is not. However, I'm just saying to keep things in perspective with these kinds of debates and their real world applications.

Celtic
01-17-2014, 11:10 AM
For them to remove them from the hall of fame there'd have to be an investigation that no one would probably even be interested in doing or funding. Some participants admitted that they did this but that in itself is not enough proof. If someone new wanted to "reboot" pool and its public image I think the best way is to declare an amnesty for all of these past transgressions. Get people to tell the stories about them, and then make a plan for how to avoid it ever happening again, with a zero tolerance policy for future transgressions of course. 1 strike and you are out of all WPA sanctioned tournaments and any other official tournament.

I agree with this. It is done, the damage was done, the players are for the most part gone and it is now water under the bridge.

Moving forward I think we need to make sure something like this NEVER happens again and for the long term outlook of this sport to improve I think pool needs to make a serious effort to prove to sponsors and fans that these types of things that took place in the past will have no place in the pool world of the future. If players attempt to do it they get banned for life from all sanctioned events or any future pool tour that might come about.

TAR took this first admiral step. When they started their challenge matches they made very clear, no savers, no splits, do it and never play on TAR again. That has made me far more interested in their product and made me feel far better about putting an occasional bet on those matches. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way.

leto1776
01-17-2014, 11:17 AM
I only joined this forum last year, but it seemed to really start coming up when JA was trying to raising money for Buddy to go to the MC.

Agent 99
01-17-2014, 12:03 PM
I agree with this. It is done, the damage was done, the players are for the most part gone and it is now water under the bridge.

Moving forward I think we need to make sure something like this NEVER happens again and for the long term outlook of this sport to improve I think pool needs to make a serious effort to prove to sponsors and fans that these types of things that took place in the past will have no place in the pool world of the future. If players attempt to do it they get banned for life from all sanctioned events or any future pool tour that might come about.

TAR took this first admiral step. When they started their challenge matches they made very clear, no savers, no splits, do it and never play on TAR again. That has made me far more interested in their product and made me feel far better about putting an occasional bet on those matches. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way.

There was a time when the NFL was very corrupt, some teams more than others, based primarily on who owned them. Fixed games in the NFL were not at all uncommon, and very transparent.

It was bad, One morning the body of the Baltimore Colts owner washed up on a Florida beach. This joker would actually sit in the press box and call the plays for his team, he had no football experience, but plenty of gambling experience. His name was Rosen something, my memory is failing me at the moment.

Many call the greatest NFL game ever played, the one that put the NFL into the big money, was a championship game played between the Colts and the Giants.

This game was obviously fixed.

Colts had the ball on the Giants 10 yard line, close as I can remember. The Colts were losing the game by 2 points but were laying 3. It was fourth down and 2 or 3 to go to make a first. Less than a minute to go in the game.

You got it, The Colts never attempted that game wining field goal, they went for it and scored a TD to cover!

I have some of the exact facts incorrect on down and distance, it's been a long time, but you get the picture ;)

At one time the Kansan City Chiefs threw so many games, were abusing Vegas so bad, that they were removed from the boards of every sports book in town. This went on for quite a while - The NFL was really upset about this black eye on their league as it started to gain popularity. They appealed to the Sports Book owners and an agreement was reached. That's why you can take or lay the points on the Chiefs today.

So yes it's true what CJ says, "The world is a stage and the athletes are the actors."

Once a sport gets a big television deal it's not about the Sport anymore, It's now all about the Entertainment business. You have to draw the ratings to be a success.

The best model is the NFL ... In order to get the ratings you have to present a clean product that will promote wagering and therefore TV ratings. Once the players, the gamblers, smell a fix it's over. NBA action has taken a real hit, and still is, since the referee scandal was made public.

So it's never too late to have a happy child hood -- I have some pretty good experience in the wagering industry - I have always thought that pool offers a tremendous platform for sports betting, and I still do.

Johnnyt has it right. Not until pool gets it's act together with one Strong and In Control governing body will it be possible for pool to move forward.

Who are the Broadcast companies going to enter into a contract with? How can a broadcast company feel secure that they will receive a clean and marketable product?

The NFL cleaned up their act in a big way and man are they all getting rich.

The big difference is that the NFL is a formidable league with whom the broadcast companies could do business with in confidence.

The NFL was run by people who, 'got it.' They could see the big picture and understood the available market, but most importantly, they had the ability to run a tight ship and keep their house clean.

Pool can do the same, and some day it will, I really believe this because the game is so great. Not sure if I will ever live to see it though.