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David Marcus
01-17-2014, 03:29 PM
I would appreciate some assistance with this post, it was originally posted in 2014 and the response was very helpful as part of the experiment. I would ask that if you have viewed this before that you not respond, I'm looking for a fresh perspective as part of this experiment. Thank you.
As for the rest of you...I'll be interested in your observations and opinions.
Thanks for participating


Original post 1/17/2014

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers.
My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or in this case practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/uuDZmITYovg

Andrew Manning
01-17-2014, 03:49 PM
I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or in this case practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/uuDZmITYovg

C.

However, he looks like he's just messing around. He's got moments in there where he shows more skill, and perhaps if he had an opponent and buckled down he'd be playing at B level. But I wouldn't call a player who fails that many simple run-outs on what seems like easy equipment anything above a C.

And it is completely subjective, and it does vary from place to place.

-Andrew

Banks
01-17-2014, 04:01 PM
I watched about a third of it. From what I saw..

Regional D-C player, approx. a good APA 4 or a mid 5.

He's got some experience breaking, knows a few different things, but has problems hitting the ball too hard and shot-making is all over the place - makes some nice shots, dogs some easy shots.

pdiddy
01-17-2014, 04:28 PM
I don't know how low we go to grade. I would say D. I live in MA. Shoot at Snookers in Providence.

Paul D.

Lucky_Lew66
01-17-2014, 05:04 PM
i would say a C player...he missed some easy shots...his speed isnt real good ...he ends up on the wrong side of balls for shape....he banks balls when he can cut them
maybe not even a good C player....APA 4 or 5...imho

Demondrew
01-17-2014, 05:29 PM
C player

Andy

victorl
01-17-2014, 06:04 PM
Would be a C player here. He has a decent stroke and I thought could be a B at first glance, but there are too many mistakes in both shotmaking and position.

BryanB
01-17-2014, 06:55 PM
APA 4-5 also probably closer to a 4

naji
01-17-2014, 07:08 PM
I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or in this case practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/uuDZmITYovg

You cannot judge a player from one setting or when banging balls, you have to track a player over four or five tournaments or money matches

Johnnyt
01-17-2014, 07:39 PM
Sorry, what I saw was a "D" player who needs to see an instructor and get lessons starting at the beginning...stance, PSR, stroke, and aiming. The player was shooting too fast and too hard. If he is happy to play like that, he will be amazed how good he will get with a few hours with a good instructor. I only watched 7 games. I couldn't watch anymore. Johnnyt

Johnnyt
01-17-2014, 07:41 PM
You cannot judge a player from one setting or when banging balls, you have to track a player over four or five tournaments or money matches

If he was on the lemon and is something like a "B" player I will get pissed off at wasting my time watching. Johnnyt

obsespool
01-17-2014, 07:44 PM
I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or in this case practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/uuDZmITYovg
I keep thinking this must be a trick question??? Maybe he's actually an A trying to hustle up a game? : )

doitforthegame
01-17-2014, 07:44 PM
Agree with C, a low one at that. IMO an APA 5.

Bob

madhatter44
01-17-2014, 08:33 PM
I got dried of watching after about 10 minutes and skipped to lat couple of minutes.
I would consider him a D. Compared to the APA players near me a good 3 or low 4.
Needs help with basics and needs to really slow down.

PaulieB
01-17-2014, 08:46 PM
I like the idea of using the APA ratings as it allows you to dial in the ranking a bit more.

C player ... APA 4. I think APA 5's around here are noticeably better.

nobcitypool
01-17-2014, 09:07 PM
If that was truly indicative of how he plays, I'd say APA 4, D player.

mattp
01-17-2014, 11:08 PM
d+ apa 3 or 4???
if is play top ability.

iusedtoberich
01-18-2014, 08:20 AM
There is no way on the planet this guy is a D player. I'd bet my house on it. He knows way too many shots that a D player can't even comprehend.

That's just after watching the first rack. He went 4 rails with the CB (and scratched), he had a couple decent shots with inside where he got fair position.

I'll have to watch more to give my opinion but a D player simply does not even "know" those shots, let alone can execute them.

ilyk2win
01-18-2014, 08:37 AM
There is no way on the planet this guy is a D player. I'd bet my house on it. He knows way too many shots that a D player can't even comprehend.

That's just after watching the first rack. He went 4 rails with the CB (and scratched), he had a couple decent shots with inside where he got fair position.

I'll have to watch more to give my opinion but a D player simply does not even "know" those shots, let alone can execute them.

I'd agree. He looks like a guy who is practicing different shots without much commitment to running racks, whether it be intentionally (hustling) or just to practice the tougher shots vs the natural shot.

Based on hand positioning, stroke and some of the shots he was taking, at least a C player IMO, possibly B, but no way is he a D. Again hard to tell from the results of the video and naturally, seeing him in a match would give a much better idea.

Masayoshi
01-18-2014, 08:51 AM
I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or in this case practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/uuDZmITYovg

A, B, C rankings are subjective and generally are based on a who beats who basis in any local area.

The skill level of each rating tends to be higher in areas that have a high density of pool players, but there is generally some overlap so that A players from one area wont completely out class A players from another area.

I can't watch your video on my phone, but it seems like everyone else in the thread has the guy pegged as a C, so I'll go with that.

iusedtoberich
01-18-2014, 10:22 AM
I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.

Jodacus
01-18-2014, 10:44 AM
He isn't trying very hard so it is difficult to tell.

From what I saw I would put him at high D to low C
but I only watched the break and first three balls.

This is based on his mechanics, decisions and
resulting cue ball position.

Mardayo
01-18-2014, 12:15 PM
I would say a low end B. As many have said he has a good stroke quick to the next shot and know's english but doesn't execute. But is he not executing because he is dumping? It looks to me that if he took his time he would make more than half the shots he missed and cutting some of the balls he chose to bank.

If you took the grading A-B-C: A being APA 7-6, B 5-4, C 3-2, there's no way he is a C.

I am from the south side of Chicago and am a solid APA 5 with a few years going up to a 6 then back down to a 5. I have been playing for 24 years and only play in the spring session so once a year.

lorider
01-18-2014, 12:19 PM
well here is my opinion after watching 3 racks.

several slop shots

a couple of good shots

too many scratches

too many missed easy shots

looked like me on a bad day:D

just based on what i saw he might be an apa 4 unless he was sandbaggin there. :wink:

fastone371
01-18-2014, 12:37 PM
I agree with most here, D or C player. Hits too hard, blew position a lot, I knew he was going to scratch on a couple shots but played shot the same anyway, maybe he was doing it on purpose, Im not sure. I have only been playing a couple years so maybe he was doing this on purpose?

Banks
01-18-2014, 01:09 PM
Iirc, he fiddles around too much when down on the shot. He's probably been playing a long time, so he knows all of the shots, but way too inconsistent. A 5/C can run a rack here and there, but can just as quickly get themselves into trouble and end up knocking them around for the rack.

ScottK
01-18-2014, 09:33 PM
I would say a low end B. As many have said he has a good stroke quick to the next shot and know's english but doesn't execute. But is he not executing because he is dumping? It looks to me that if he took his time he would make more than half the shots he missed and cutting some of the balls he chose to bank.

If you took the grading A-B-C: A being APA 7-6, B 5-4, C 3-2, there's no way he is a C.

I am from the south side of Chicago and am a solid APA 5 with a few years going up to a 6 then back down to a 5. I have been playing for 24 years and only play in the spring session so once a year.

Mardayo, you must play in the Illiana APA.


My very first thought was the same as many have already posted... I'd like to see him play when he's not stalling.

If this video was representative of his actual speed I'd call him a low C at best. I'd also agree he seems like a guy who's been around enough to have gained some knowledge, but failed to learn how to apply said knowledge. However, I admittedly had to stop watching when he intentionally dogged the four in the corner with ball in hand just before the twelve minute mark. If I can bring myself to, I'll try to finish and add any other thoughts.

I like the idea of the experiment, but you need to film people playing their actual speed in order to get a fair comparison. There are too many things about this guy that scream he's playing down for your purpose.

The Kiss
01-18-2014, 10:21 PM
Well obviously if he is a D player he is older and has been around the game a bit so he might know a bit more than your average noob banger who just picked up a stick. I would guess low C unless he is stalling no way he is close to a B player like some have said.

In answer to the question about regionality and A,B,C rating. I played on C and B tournament tours in upper NE and then played in NY. I would say in NY the rating system is plus 1 level for an ABCD handicap. So if you are D in NY that's more like a mid to stronger C player in MA

lorider
01-18-2014, 11:42 PM
in an earlier post i said he might be an apa 4.

i went back and watched the entire thing just now. some of it was painful to watch lol. i think he is a lil better player than what he showed there simply because its obvious that sometimes he made some shots just to see what happened.

since it was just practice it seemed he was trying to make banks where a cut shot was a better option.

as far as the comment some one else made about he shot too hard i agree....but i have seen pros do the same in practice and then shoot softer in a match and i believe this guy would do the same.

he is definitely not a d player, i really don't think he is a b player so i guess he falls into a c player.

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 01:54 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice
with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue
( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

Banks
01-19-2014, 02:02 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

In other words, you're saying he was just screwing around. If that's how he plays, that's how I rate him. If you want real answers, next time post real practice. I wasted 12 minutes at work that I could've spend online, in the break room or even in the bathroom.

Rackemep
01-19-2014, 02:08 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

If this video shows his true speed then I think "C" is about right...Its hard to judge someones game just watching them bang some balls around for 20-30 min. You really need to see them play some matches to judge speed in my opinion...If he came to my tourney and I had to rate him based on that video I would plug him in as a "B" player and adjust from there over the course of a couple tournaments just because it's too easy to sandbag to get a low rating....

lorider
01-19-2014, 02:11 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

without going back and looking for sure what you are mentioning here is what i noticed.

the 1 ball bank back up to the top left corner ? yea i noticed that. the bank on the 2? i honestly thought it was a simple cross side bank attempt. the 2-6 combo attempt was a good try but in my opinion a higher level than a c would have never got that out of shape.

there were several good shots but there were also a lot of bad ones.

yea he seemed to know some shots but the number of easy shots missed and the several rattled pockets and the numerous scratches make it hard to believe he is above a c level on a consistent basis. maybe low b on a good day.

it did seem obvious that he was not really bearing down on some shots so its kinda hard to make a rock solid assesment based on some good shots but some easy misses also.

lorider
01-19-2014, 02:16 PM
In other words, you're saying he was just screwing around. If that's how he plays, that's how I rate him. If you want real answers, next time post real practice. I wasted 12 minutes at work that I could've spend online, in the break room or even in the bathroom.

dang banks .... tell us how you really feel.:wink:

i did notice soom good shots that indicated he was screwing around some but i also noticed some easy misses so i stll say he is probably a consistent c player who is capable of being a low b on his good days.

Johnnyt
01-19-2014, 02:40 PM
dang banks .... tell us how you really feel.:wink:

i did notice soom good shots that indicated he was screwing around some but i also noticed some easy misses so i stll say he is probably a consistent c player who is capable of being a low b on his good days.

I had hunch this was the case and feel the same way you do. A real A$$hole thread. Johnnyt

nobcitypool
01-19-2014, 02:41 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

All your "experiment" proved was you could waste 12 minutes of a few people's time. You're saying it was all a put on but people were supposed to see through that because of three or four shots? You just embarrassed yourself dude with that crap.

Charlie Hustle
01-19-2014, 02:45 PM
I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.

I agree with this. D player would have trouble with many of the things that you discuss. I would rank him a C.

Charlie Hustle
01-19-2014, 03:03 PM
To answer the OP follow up post, "did we see those shots that you mention at certain times?" YES, we did. but we also saw a ton of misses on very easy shots. One ball he misses twice in a row that was a hanger. On the third attempt when he finally makes it, he almost scratches in the corner. So what was your purpose of this "experiment"? Other than to waste or time.

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 05:45 PM
I just watched the whole thing.

IMO, when you watch someone, you can know their "minimum" speed, but not their maximum. The minimum is obtained by the amount of knowledge the player shows. There is a threshold of knowledge that only comes from experience.

It looks like he's playing on an 8' table, and just messing around.

This guy is no way a D. He is never once uncomfortable at the table. His decision making is quick. He knows about where the cue ball is going. He never once has a difficult time making a bridge, from any of the positions the CB lands on the table. His stroke is decent, and his mechanics are decent. He knows to kick 2 rails. His banks are decent. A "D" player would have trouble with every single one of these issues several times in the half hour that we watched. 100% not a D.

If this is this guys regular competitive play, I'd make him a low C player. But there is the element that he's just messing around also, so he might be a solid mid C in competiton.

I also think, this guy has been playing many years. He is probably a regular at the room. I couldn't tell if he was the cue repair man or a customer from the side conversation when the other guy came up with a bunch of cues and was talking tips. But all these signs (plus his age) lead me to believe he's been playing at least 10 years.

If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets.

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.



This would be as close to the Truth except for two things......

9' Table and....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?

iusedtoberich
01-19-2014, 05:59 PM
This would be as close to the Truth except for one thing.....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?

Nature vs Nurture debate. I'm obviously strongly on the side of Nature:) There are 100's of other threads here with dozens of pages debating this issue...

So now that we went through this thread, what is the player's speed, when he is playing in serious competition?

A B C D should not change from location to location. A means a "real player", he will bet on himself to beat the 9 ball ghost on a 9' table at the drop of the hat, and get the money more times than not.

Your original question was two fold:

1. Does player rating change from location to location.

2. What is the players rating in the video.

I don't think you have answered either one for us in this thread.

My answer to #1 is no, it does not change. An A in california is an A in NY, is an A in Canada. A B C D are "gambling" ratings. If someone has been around for a long time, and travelled around regionally and even nationally, they will have a better comparison in their head.

If someone has never left their home room, they might think the best player there is an A, but he's really a C, and neither one of them know any better. That does not mean the ratings change from place to place, it simply means those two people don't know what they are talking about, cause they don't have the experience.

Lesh
01-19-2014, 06:26 PM
Okay OP. I watched the vid and have not read anyone else's comments, so this is the straight poop on what I see. I see a player that may have been formidable a considerable time ago, maybe an A player back then, but now a solid C.

You can see that there are some skills being dug up from some mental ditch, but inconsistently. Tons of variables, but I would rank them a C if I was doing the ranking and let them destroy their way to an A over the next year or so.

Lesh

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 06:42 PM
Nature vs Nurture debate. I'm obviously strongly on the side of Nature:) There are 100's of other threads here with dozens of pages debating this issue...

So now that we went through this thread, what is the player's speed, when he is playing in serious competition?

A B C D should not change from location to location. A means a "real player", he will bet on himself to beat the 9 ball ghost on a 9' table at the drop of the hat, and get the money more times than not.

Your original question was two fold:

1. Does player rating change from location to location.

2. What is the players rating in the video.

I don't think you have answered either one for us in this thread.

My answer to #1 is no, it does not change. An A in california is an A in NY, is an A in Canada. A B C D are "gambling" ratings. If someone has been around for a long time, and travelled around regionally and even nationally, they will have a better comparison in their head.

If someone has never left their home room, they might think the best player there is an A, but he's really a C, and neither one of them know any better. That does not mean the ratings change from place to place, it simply means those two people don't know what they are talking about, cause they don't have the experience.


What if the player is NOT a gambler and simply plays the game for the love of the game?

Now, how do you rate him?

You missed the point of the OP, go back & read it again......:eek:

Allen Brown
01-19-2014, 06:47 PM
I watched it right after you posted this and didn't even bother to comment on it.
If he is using a short break cue and the rack to improve his game it isn't working. He needs to work on his break a lot. It was very inconsistent. He/you could be a monster player though.

victorl
01-19-2014, 07:03 PM
How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?

I know a lot of C and beginner players who have nice cues and use magic racks, gloves, extensions and any other gadgets you can imagine. A lot of times, it's the guys with the most gear and gadgets that play the worst (except Earl).

And one more thing, stalling is bad for your game, and your health, too.

Allen Brown
01-19-2014, 07:08 PM
I would like to see a video of this guy playing serious. I hope your experiment went well too. For real though......can we see what he's got?

ChicagoRJ
01-19-2014, 07:09 PM
D player and/or APA 3, I say this before I even begin to review anyone else's comments... please, I hope nobody called him a "b" :)

ChicagoRJ
01-19-2014, 07:13 PM
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice
with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue

Anybody care to change their original answer?? :eek:

I stopped watching after the first rack.... why would I wanna watch more than that... if he just tanked the first rack to fool everyone, that what exactly is the point of this ridiculous thread ??

Allen Brown
01-19-2014, 07:26 PM
I just watched more videos on YouTube. Still a C player. Nothing changed with his/your shooting style. He is a shot maker because of bad shapes( a lot like me...lol). Those tables are SLOW too.

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 07:41 PM
Nature vs Nurture debate. I'm obviously strongly on the side of Nature:) There are 100's of other threads here with dozens of pages debating this issue...

So now that we went through this thread, what is the player's speed, when he is playing in serious competition?

A B C D should not change from location to location. A means a "real player", he will bet on himself to beat the 9 ball ghost on a 9' table at the drop of the hat, and get the money more times than not.

Your original question was two fold:

1. Does player rating change from location to location.

2. What is the players rating in the video.

I don't think you have answered either one for us in this thread.

My answer to #1 is no, it does not change. An A in california is an A in NY, is an A in Canada. A B C D are "gambling" ratings. If someone has been around for a long time, and travelled around regionally and even nationally, they will have a better comparison in their head.

If someone has never left their home room, they might think the best player there is an A, but he's really a C, and neither one of them know any better. That does not mean the ratings change from place to place, it simply means those two people don't know what they are talking about, cause they don't have the experience.

I would like to see a video of this guy playing serious. I hope your experiment went well too. For real though......can we see what he's got?



For those of you that know me, isn't this interesting?

Allen Brown
01-19-2014, 07:45 PM
Do you have any matches playing against anyone? I just enjoy watching people shoot. Thanks.

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 08:04 PM
Do you have any matches playing against anyone? I just enjoy watching people shoot. Thanks.



Chris Freeman please........

iusedtoberich
01-19-2014, 08:29 PM
I guess I'm lost as to what this thread is about now?...

Are you the player in the video?

Whether you gamble or not or simply love the game doesn't enter into ratings. You either can play at a certain level, or you can't [In Serious Competition].

I can play half decent at times, but sometimes at the end of a practice session, I literally just slam the balls without any regard for anything. If someone was only watching that, they would think I'm a Banger, not even a D player. Its just a fun thing for me to do sometimes to unwind from the high concentration when in a serous practice session..

But again, I don't understand what you are trying to do in this thread.

KoolKat9Lives
01-19-2014, 09:13 PM
After @ a minute I suspected this might be BS. The guy looks like he's in disguise and is laying a lemon. Heck, he might be a pro or a shortstop.

pt109
01-19-2014, 09:41 PM
A bit OCD, methinks.

..bought a break cue that matches the rails?:confused:

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 10:10 PM
After @ a minute I suspected this might be BS. The guy looks like he's in disguise and is laying a lemon. Heck, he might be a pro or a shortstop.

You said this after I said this...

"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?


Go back and reread the OP......

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 10:17 PM
This would be as close to the Truth except for two things......

9' Table and....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?



I'm not from Philly, North Shore of Boston.:confused:

osama
01-19-2014, 10:22 PM
He is a C player just like me .. :thumbup:

The only difference I see between my game and his is cue speed and position.

He shoots fast, and I shoot slow. Cue position seemed missing, he concentrated on pocketing the ball, but didn't care where the ball will land next. Whenever he did try to control the position, he missed easy balls.

Overall, lots of experience, but not much fundamentals. Again, Same as me ! :grin-square:

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 10:26 PM
This would be as close to the Truth except for two things......

9' Table and....


"If this is true, AND if he is not "hustling" us, then this is the type of player that simply has little natural ability. He won't get any better, no matter how much instruction he gets."

This is simply the opposite of the truth, if he were to seek professional help and dedicate himself to his game, he would absolutely "get better" because the player in question has a deep understanding of the game and can recognize shots "during practice" that come up in various games.
Now the question becomes...."when you practice,....do you "practice"?"
Isn't your time worth it ?

About me, I'm a C+ player, sometime delving into the B- territory. I've been playing 20 years now, and have had the pool bug since I was 15. I'm from Philadelphia, and have gambled day in day out with everyone from banger level to Open level. I have horrible natural ability in any sport, and know I'm never going to get much above my current level. I think this player we watched is much like myself.

...alright, two more things........ I'm not from Philly, North Shore of Boston. and I never gambled much ......unless you count going into a sports bar with .50€ and leaving drunk....

Neil
01-19-2014, 10:31 PM
Not sure what his speed is. Strongly suspect he owns a chain of lemonade stands though. Watching for key signs, he showed them at various times. He showed a few things that no D or even C player is going to show.

If he really is a C or even a low B player, then he could easily get a ways higher with just wanting to and caring about his game. He obviously wasn't concerned at all with making balls in this video, except for a few key shots which were his "tell".

justadub
01-19-2014, 10:32 PM
If....this were his true speed and playing ability.....I said "if"

He would probably be an APA 5 around here. Not as good as most of the 5's, but the shots he pulls off in some racks, and his position play (some of the time) would put him ahead of the 4's.

I agree that he doesn't look as tho he is really trying. I cant imagine someone that can make shots like he does some of the time playing this consistently bad. Hitting so hard so often, particularly, and the decisions to shoot bank shots so often says he's effing around, or not very serious.

(I can say "this consistently bad" as I'm an apa 5, and I would beat this guy most of the time, if this is his speed and shot selection style. And I don't consider myself a "good" 5 around here)

osama
01-19-2014, 10:45 PM
Every Player can pull great shots sometimes. The things that make great players great is that they can make it every time.

This guy did some great shots, but then missed some really easy ones. Besides, he really put himself in bad positions.

This thing was so fun, I'm thinking about doing my own video! :grin-square:

David Marcus
01-19-2014, 10:56 PM
Every Player can pull great shots sometimes. The things that make great players great is that they can make it every time.

This guy did some great shots, but then missed some really easy ones. Besides, he really put himself in bad positions.

This thing was so fun, I'm thinking about doing my own video! :grin-square:

osama,
I get the feeling we might know each other.........."Willie, is that you??"

osama
01-20-2014, 04:00 AM
My real name is Osama, I don't know who you are. :grin-square:

Wileydog
01-20-2014, 09:24 AM
I didn't watch the entire thing, but viewed parts of each rack. I can't imagine someone practicing that long without putting 100% into at least one rack. I would guess that is the way he plays. An APA 4 or C.

Tony_in_MD
01-20-2014, 09:45 AM
Practice sloppy, play sloppy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

iusedtoberich
01-20-2014, 10:07 AM
David you are messing up the quotes. You asked in your OP if experience and region affected clocking ability. That's why I told you where I'm from and my experiences. That wasn't a guess as to where you are from, it was complying with your OP.

DAVE_M
01-20-2014, 11:12 AM
I didn't watch the entire thing, but viewed parts of each rack. I can't imagine someone practicing that long without putting 100% into at least one rack. I would guess that is the way he plays. An APA 4 or C.

With the light speed he was hitting balls, he would end up an APA 3 out here. No position play, no feel for speed, and poor shot making abilities. APA 4 at best. The 5's out here would tear him apart.

C- / D+ player at best.

David Marcus
01-20-2014, 12:00 PM
This is not a put on in anyway. My point is while you are practicing, do you recognize shots that come up often and experiment with attempting them or power stroking certain shots. If you don't try them in practice then when do you?
Identifying the shots and attempting them is in direct correlation with your level of play and your perception of your level of play. If you don't see the shot then you can't attempt it. Remember,.. The game is supposed to be fun.
As far as player rankings go, regional C player with occasional bursts of C+\B-. However, is it possible that anyone's playing level and their knowledge level are not necessarily or ever the same? It all comes down to execution.....I might play like a C but my brain and eyes see things as an A.
As for APA rankings.....I played APA at two different times over the years. Back in the 80's when it was "Busch Pool League" (played as a 7) ,before a lot of you were born,back in the glory days of bar room pool and again in the early 2000's when I also played as a 7 on a 9 footer.




Originally Posted by David Marcus
This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?:eek:

Banks
01-20-2014, 12:17 PM
I have a relative in Standish.. any place to play around there next time I visit?

DAVE_M
01-20-2014, 12:40 PM
This is all my opinion.

This is not a put on in anyway. My point is while you are practicing, do you recognize shots that come up often and experiment with attempting them or power stroking certain shots. If you don't try them in practice then when do you?

Do I recognize the shots? Yes.
Do I try them in practice? Yes; but to my ability. I'm not going to practice 2 rail banks of the point for hours on end.

Identifying the shots and attempting them is in direct correlation with your level of play and your perception of your level of play.

No. Indentifying shots and making them is in direct correlation to your level of play.

However, is it possible that anyone's playing level and their knowledge level are not necessarily or ever the same? It all comes down to execution.....I might play like a C but my brain and eyes see things as an A.

Yes, it is possible. However, you do play like a C player (if that video is of you). Thinking like an A player will only get you so far. A players can make shots that you think you can make.

As for APA rankings.....I played APA at two different times over the years. Back in the 80's when it was "Busch Pool League" (played as a 7) ,before a lot of you were born,back in the glory days of bar room pool and again in the early 2000's when I also played as a 7 on a 9 footer.

I've said it a thousand times to guys like you. "This ain't Busch League anymore..."


This has been a very interesting exercise in one's observation skills. Some of you, very few, picked up on certain things that raised your eyebrows while others were totally in the dark. How many D players that you know practice with an Accu-rack and use a short break cue ( nobody noticed??)?
Who noticed the one ball, one rail @ 6:45 or the One Pocket shot on the 6 @12:00?
How about the bank shot on the 2 @ 15:25 or, as some noticed, 3 rail position from the 8 to the 9 @ 16:45 and the 2 rail hit on the 2 @ 19:00 or how about the double cross @ 20:20?
I think you get my point...remember what the experiment was all about....

"My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be."

Anybody care to change their original answer?:eek:

Playing with an accu-rack and using a short break cue, does not have any relationship to your level of play. Neither does making a one rail bank, "one pocket shot", bank on the 2, 3 rail position, and all that other mumbo jumbo.

Do I want to change my original answer? Noooope.

justadub
01-20-2014, 02:57 PM
I have a relative in Standish.. any place to play around there next time I visit?

Standish is probably 30 minutes out of Portland, give or take. There is a good room with 9 footers at Union Station in Portland that I know of. Quite likely others in and around, as well, Portland isn't my stomping ground. But if you give me a little notice, I would see if I could arrange time to get down there, were you to be back this way. It's only two hours from home :-)

(I was next door to that room at Union Station a couple days ago, for work. I know the way...)

ScottK
01-20-2014, 04:22 PM
This is not a put on in anyway.

If you're promising he/you are not stalling in this video I'll watch the rest of it. However, I suspect my initial opinion will not change.

As far as the experiment goes, I think you have an answer. There are already people clocking the play in the video anywhere from D to B and an APA 3 to 5. That pretty much answers your question, people's opinions will vary by region. Those varying opinions will be compounded by the fact that, very often, lesser skilled players have a more difficult time determining playing speed and don't even realize as much. The greater the gap in ability between the "clocker" and "clockee" the less accurate that evaluation is likely to be. I realize this is part of the point you're making and you're correct.

Banks
01-20-2014, 04:31 PM
Standish is probably 30 minutes out of Portland, give or take. There is a good room with 9 footers at Union Station in Portland that I know of. Quite likely others in and around, as well, Portland isn't my stomping ground. But if you give me a little notice, I would see if I could arrange time to get down there, were you to be back this way. It's only two hours from home :-)

(I was next door to that room at Union Station a couple days ago, for work. I know the way...)

I plan on being out there this summer or early fall. This time I won't be trying to cram in a week's worth of stuff into only a few days. A bit bummed that we weren't able to hit up any of the fairs either. I'd rather play on barboxes, but I can make do with a big table.

sparkle84
01-20-2014, 05:05 PM
I would like to see a video of this guy playing serious. I hope your experiment went well too. For real though......can we see what he's got?

Just click on 13 videos next to NE9ball and you'll see a lot more of this guy.

Table is a 9 ft. Olhausen with extremely generous pockets. It's a nice playing table and is not slow as one person stated.

My take on this gentleman is that he spends a lot of money on equipment, has been around the game quite awhile, watches a lot of streams and videos, has a fair degree of knowledge but has never been measurably better than he is now nor will improve much if at all.

Knowledge: B-
Execution: C
Practice &
Game habits: D-

Just MHO but the video is representative of how he plays. He's not a better player fooling around to fool you guys.

justadub
01-20-2014, 05:20 PM
I plan on being out there this summer or early fall. This time I won't be trying to cram in a week's worth of stuff into only a few days. A bit bummed that we weren't able to hit up any of the fairs either. I'd rather play on barboxes, but I can make do with a big table.

Just did a little google mapping, approx 10-15 miles from Standish to Windham, where the only place in Maine with Diamond bar boxes is located. Depending on actual addresses, of course. Not far, regardless.

How's that? :)

Banks
01-20-2014, 05:30 PM
Just did a little google mapping, approx 10-15 miles from Standish to Windham, where the only place in Maine with Diamond bar boxes is located. Depending on actual addresses, of course. Not far, regardless.

How's that? :)

Sounds like easy pic...err.. I'll have to check it out. :thumbup:

I'll just tell my cousin to save me a room for a couple of days. From there, it's over to Lincoln County. Maybe I can time my visit to coincide with a tournament. :idea2:

justadub
01-20-2014, 05:37 PM
Sounds like easy pic...err.. I'll have to check it out. :thumbup:

I'll just tell my cousin to save me a room for a couple of days. From there, it's over to Lincoln County. Maybe I can time my visit to coincide with a tournament. :idea2:

And to keep it on topic, maybe we can get the OP to join us...Sanford isn't terribly far from Windham, certainly closer than I am :-)

Banks
01-20-2014, 05:43 PM
And to keep it on topic, maybe we can get the OP to join us...Sanford isn't terribly far from Windham, certainly closer than I am :-)

Then we can have the folks here on AZB tell us that we all suck. :p

justadub
01-20-2014, 05:48 PM
Then we can have the folks here on AZB tell us that we all suck. :p

Well, me at least.... :p

Maybe we can get CreeDo to make a return to the north country as well :grin:

Banks
01-20-2014, 07:04 PM
Well, me at least.... :p

Maybe we can get CreeDo to make a return to the north country as well :grin:

Ayuh, we could have a wicked good time! :thumbup:

Stay thirsty, my friend.

(Yay, work's over.. time to let Chuck Fields give me a pool lesson!)

lorider
01-20-2014, 07:04 PM
Well, me at least.... :p

Maybe we can get CreeDo to make a return to the north country as well :grin:

why don't both of ya'll come down here outa the cold ? we can hit high pockets and then ya'll can come on here and brag bout how ya'll suck less than me.:D

oh yea ... bring creedo too. :thumbup:

JohnPT
01-20-2014, 07:21 PM
.....I might play like a C but my brain and eyes see things as an A.

Not the first time I've heard this from C player. You think you know but how can you know what you don't know?! The gap between C and A speed is huuuuuuuuuuuge!

ScottK
01-20-2014, 07:39 PM
Not the first time I've heard this from C player. You think you know but how can you know what you don't know?! The gap between C and A speed is huuuuuuuuuuuge!

And therein lies the problem.

lorider
01-20-2014, 07:45 PM
Not the first time I've heard this from C player. You think you know but how can you know what you don't know?! The gap between C and A speed is huuuuuuuuuuuge!

yep ... i have met plenty of guys who think they are better than they really are.

as for me... when some one asks how i made a certain shot or say i play better than what my handicap is ? i tellem i don't know nuthin and just get lucky sometimes.:grin-square:

victorl
01-20-2014, 07:47 PM
I see and think like an A, but play like a C, too.
When I'm shooting with my off hand.

osama
01-20-2014, 09:19 PM
Most of us are great planners and very bad executors. :grin-square:

I personally play and think like a C player. I know which shot I can make and which ones I can't..

On training subject that was raised. Previously I only played 9ball and 8ball for 2-3hours a day for practice.

Recently, I started doing drills and training on specific shots and cue ball positions. I can say that this is a much better and faster way to improve. But it can get boring sometimes. :embarrassed2:

victorl
01-20-2014, 09:55 PM
You may think you think like an A, but me thinks the way you think an A thinks may not be the way an A truly thinks. I think.

efirkey
01-24-2014, 06:02 PM
Let's play Dave and then I will rank you. I will be at Busters tomorrow.

Masayoshi
01-25-2014, 02:11 AM
Plenty of C players think they have the knowledge of A players. That is why people hit plateaus. Unless an A player develops a serious disability, such as extremely poor eyesight, there is no way he will fall to a C level.

sixpack
01-25-2014, 02:39 AM
If this guy can beat me he gets all my money.

Although the wary part of me says he's a B player trying to look like a C player.

The flip side is if you watched me practice you'e rate me lower too…but I play a lil better than I bang 'em around. Maybe he does too.

In the few states I've been in long enough to understand the handicap system he doesn't rate. Meaning he would be overrated as a 'C' and have to improve to be competitive even at the lowest ranking (for a man).

I have A LOT of trouble believing that the guy in the video plays as bad as he seems to during practice.

sixpack
01-25-2014, 02:43 AM
Plenty of C players think they have the knowledge of A players. That is why people hit plateaus. Unless an A player develops a serious disability, such as extremely poor eyesight, there is no way he will fall to a C level.

This. Anytime I hear someone say they make shots like a 'B' player but think like an 'A' player…I am ready to go all in. There's no possible way that someone who has not been an 'A' player can think like an 'A' player. If you can't pocket balls, you *can't* think about the game the way someone who *can* pocket balls does. Unless, like you note, you used to be an 'A' player.

Other than players declining in age I've NEVER, and I mean NEVER seen any 'B' player that thinks like an 'A' player. And I've gambled with hundreds or thousands of folks.

DGilb147
01-25-2014, 03:03 AM
interesting to see a pool league match