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thefonz
01-18-2014, 10:13 AM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.

logical
01-18-2014, 10:30 AM
I am not following...what is the correct size for a shaft in your mind?

mmedford
01-18-2014, 10:33 AM
I usually like a 11.75mm & 12.75/13mm shafts available to me when I play...different tables, cloth, temps/humidity, etc..

brechbt
01-18-2014, 10:37 AM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.
IMO 13 represents the largest diameter that is likely to be used by anyone. Therefore, if you are buying a cue as an investment, you want shafts that any potential buyer would consider, if he/she were going to possibly play the cue. Obviously, a shaft's diameter can always be reduced, but a 12.5 would be rejected by anyone wanting to play at 12.8.

If you're buying a cue to play with, and not going to worry about resale, then of course you would just buy the diameter you prefer.

cuesblues
01-18-2014, 11:02 AM
Shaft taper is just as important as shaft diameter, but I think lot of players (myself) prefer a little less than 13 mm.
From a collector or resale standpoint, shafts that have been turned down kill the value.
13 mm isn't necessarily the standard depending on the cuemaker, and if both shafts were ordered let's say around 12.75, I don't think it hurts the value that much.
I don't even know the diameter of the shaft on my player.
It's old & original, less than 13, but I like it, as does everybody who hits with it.

pdcue
01-18-2014, 11:27 AM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.

1968-ish...

Exactly how many people do you know for sure have committed the
above mentioned unpardonable sin of extreme misjudgement and stupidity?

But more to the point - exactly WHY do you care?

BTW - are you aware you sound like a refugee from Talk Radio?


Dale(a fan of listener radio)

$TAKE HOR$E
01-18-2014, 11:37 AM
13 mm is the gold standard for how big a shaft is more than likely going to start out. People order them all different sizes but when it comes to the secondary market, shaft size is the biggest knock card in the deck. It doesnt matter if someone plays with an 11 mm and is looking at a cue with 12.25 mm shafts, the price is going to be effected. Its just like a Honda with 300K miles, it probably runs perfect but the high mileage is a key factor in negotiation. Take two identical Southwest cues for example, there are tons out there but one with two 13 mm shafts is going to be more desireable than one with two 12 mm shafts even if they were done by Southwest.

There is also a big difference when someone orders a cue to play with or orders a cue to flip. Any cue I have ever ordered to play with I had one shaft made 13 mm and the other one the diameter I wanted to pay with.

Lesh
01-18-2014, 12:02 PM
13mm is the usual starting point from which people evolve into cue sports. 13mm is fat, stable and forgiving. The reason I could see why this would affect the resale value of a cue is that a novice would be purchasing the cue and is not ready for a smaller diameter tip.

There are literally hundreds of articles about tip diameter out there and on AZB. My personal feeling is that it is usually an advanced player making the decision to have a shaft turned down. It allows for more action to get the little white ball where we need it to be. It's a balancing act with the tip diameter, the tip you use and the rigidity of the shaft you use. Takes time to find the sweet spot.

My favorite basic set up is a predator Z shaft (11.75mm), standard length with either an Everest or Kamui Black Medium tip on it.

Regards,

Lesh

thekaiserman
01-18-2014, 12:13 PM
why not just buy an extra shaft the desired size and save the 13mm for when resale is considered.

j_zippel
01-18-2014, 12:18 PM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.

I have a custom cue that has 2 - 13mm shafts?? I like the way they play and knew 'fully well' that I would play with them. I guess the question is when you buy a custom cue are you buyng it for a player or buying it fo resale.. i'm still confused why it's stupid to order a new cue with a 13mm shaft,

HueblerHustler7
01-18-2014, 12:40 PM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

01rkclassic
01-18-2014, 01:37 PM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

Couldn't have said it better myself Drew.

JoseV
01-18-2014, 01:51 PM
I play with a 13MM shaft and can draw and put just about any type of English/spin on the CB as a see fit with the best of them. I also have no problem hitting extreme edges of the CB.

pwd72s
01-18-2014, 02:04 PM
I play with 13mm. But then I can pick up a basketball one handed...skinny shafts just feel weird to me when using a closed bridge.

Island Drive
01-18-2014, 02:11 PM
I like ferrules @13mm new, especially ivory less prone to cracking. The shaft area will wear down with play and cleaning choices to where one likes it, mine after twenty yrs, never abrasively cleaned is 12.5....ferrule now just under thirteen.

SCCues
01-18-2014, 02:16 PM
IMO 13 represents the largest diameter that is likely to be used by anyone. Therefore, if you are buying a cue as an investment, you want shafts that any potential buyer would consider, if he/she were going to possibly play the cue. Obviously, a shaft's diameter can always be reduced, but a 12.5 would be rejected by anyone wanting to play at 12.8.

If you're buying a cue to play with, and not going to worry about resale, then of course you would just buy the diameter you prefer.
That's a pretty accurate assessment of shaft sizes and i agree with you. When I buy a new cue I don't want the shafts to be smaller than 12.8mm and I usually don't play with them anyway. I've been using Predator LD shafts for years so the original shafts are put away to maintain the resale value of the cue.

Pushout
01-18-2014, 02:21 PM
why not just buy an extra shaft the desired size and save the 13mm for when resale is considered.

How many cues have you heard of that were sold on the basis of having one unplayed shaft? I've heard this for years and have never found it to be true. Most of the cues I've sold have had at least two shafts, both/all of them played with and I've never had someone tell me: "Gee, if one shaft hadn't been played with, I'd buy it but since they've both/all been played with, I'll pass."

thefonz
01-18-2014, 02:48 PM
13 mm is the gold standard for how big a shaft is more than likely going to start out. People order them all different sizes but when it comes to the secondary market, shaft size is the biggest knock card in the deck. It doesnt matter if someone plays with an 11 mm and is looking at a cue with 12.25 mm shafts, the price is going to be effected. Its just like a Honda with 300K miles, it probably runs perfect but the high mileage is a key factor in negotiation. Take two identical Southwest cues for example, there are tons out there but one with two 13 mm shafts is going to be more desireable than one with two 12 mm shafts even if they were done by Southwest.

There is also a big difference when someone orders a cue to play with or orders a cue to flip. Any cue I have ever ordered to play with I had one shaft made 13 mm and the other one the diameter I wanted to pay with.

This better explains what I was attempting to convey. To me, short of abuse or damage, a cue shouldn't lose it's value after it has been played. Shafts to me are somewhat disposable in nature, and shouldn't have a great impact on cue value. Unless of course they're no good and replacements are unavailable.

Collectable cues after all, are supposed to be functional works of art. I don't think using them should cause devaluation to a great degree.

GoldCrown
01-18-2014, 02:52 PM
If 13mm is stupid I'm a moron at 13.2

voiceofreason
01-19-2014, 12:02 AM
Why buy a cue you are not going to keep forever?

Blue Hog ridr
01-19-2014, 12:28 AM
I had a custom sneaky made a while back. I had an extra shaft made.

One is a 12.50 and the other 12. I know that if I was to try and sell it, that those diameters would not be desirable to most but I didn't have it made to sell in the future. I had it made to my liking to play with.

I usually play with any diameter shaft from a Pred Z, 11.75 up to a 12.50.

I started with a small diameter shaft, that cue was stolen in a B & E. I got a cue with a 13mm from a pawn shop. I started working my way down to a smaller tip again until I found the one that I liked.

The shafts that I got with my schons are well under 13mm. I don't know why I would feel the need to buy a cue with a 13mm shaft only to take it down to what my preference is anyway.

If I were to buy a used cue, I would be happy with anything from 12.75 all the way down to 11.75.

Funny but now when I put a 13mm in my hand, it feels like a telephone pole. And really, there is not a huge difference between a 13 and a 12.75.

Basically, if you're happy with the butt of the cue, one can always gets shafts with a diameter that you like later.

I have always figured that your shaft, diameter, taper, ferrule material and tip is a large percentage of what you like most in a cue.
Maybe I am wrong but that is what makes me feel the most comfortable.

Bavafongoul
01-19-2014, 01:36 AM
I think that the cue value doesn't have to suffer as long as the seller is willing to be patient.
However, when the seller becomes impatient, what do they do.....price drop bumps & more than once.
The seller is the one that gets less than they want......why does this happen, not referring to being impatient.

How about this.....if you break down the popularity of cue shafts by ranking, there's a lot more players that
prefer shafts 12.5mm & larger than 12.5mm & smaller. And if you continued that down to 12.25mm, 12.0mm, etc.,
the percentage of players shrinks. If you own a cue with shafts that appeal to a small percentage of the pool players,
even though the cue is ideally matched for you, it's not going to attract much interest quickly. You're going to have
to be patient until that right person comes along or else drop the price to get your sale.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong but that's how the market works. A Richard Black cue selling for $3,000 that has
two original, straight shafts 11.75mm & 12.00mm will take a lot longer than the identical cue with12.5mm shafts, or
especially with 12.75 mm - 13mm shafts. The buyer that wants thin shafts will pay full market value and the problem
is there's less of them. It's the buyer that settling for a thinner shaft than they prefer that contributes to the price drop + seller impatience.

Anyway, that's how I see it and of course, most sellers also over-estimate the asking price which also helps cause price drop bumps.

mortuarymike-nv
01-19-2014, 01:53 AM
If the shaft is under 11.75 mm it is considered next to worthless in less you find the right customer under resale conditions.

New and if it for resale never go under 12.75............................................. ......

MMike

pdcue
01-19-2014, 06:46 AM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

+1

There is a rumor that more spin is imparted by better follow thru.

Dale

Island Drive
01-19-2014, 06:56 AM
If 13mm is stupid I'm a moron at 13.2

Bill Skinner in Denver plays with Fat thirteens'. Some of his many cues hit sweet, he must have six or eight or more new Kikels. He custom designed and had then made up over the past twenty five years or so. He has that addiction. :thumbup:

pdcue
01-19-2014, 07:23 AM
This better explains what I was attempting to convey. To me, short of abuse or damage, a cue shouldn't lose it's value after it has been played. Shafts to me are somewhat disposable in nature, and shouldn't have a great impact on cue value. Unless of course they're no good and replacements are unavailable.

Collectable cues after all, are supposed to be functional works of art. I don't think using them should cause devaluation to a great degree.

Well, your re-statement is improving by leaps and bounds.

A few observations.

1. The market is what it is, and what it is, especially the collector market,
is more skewed toward pristine examples. And the high end collectables
typically rarely if ever get played with.

2. If your shafts are disposable in this day and age, you need to shoot
your cue repair person. Retippers divorced 150 grit sandpaper decades ago.

3. You seem to be implying almost no one uses 13mm shafts to actually
play pool with. I would venture that is exactly backwards. Based on the
requests I get 12.9+ - yes, that is exactly what they ask for, to 13.0+
is the preference of 90% of players. Tho, the long term trend is to smaller
shafts, just as it is to lighter cues.

Historical note:

50 - 60 years ago, the typical jointed cue, as they were called in those
days, was 57 inches long, had a 12.5mm shaft, weighed 20 plus oz, with
a fat butt<handle> and a small joint. Bank players tended to prefer even
larger shafts and heavier cues, as did quite a few 14.1 and One Pocket
devotees. 9 Ball was not taken seriously as a game of skill, only a way to
hustle.

Current events note:

I know it's quite popular, but the overwhelming majority of people who
actively play the game of pool, don't pay much attention to AZB, if they
even know of its existence. Also they care about as much about the
Americas Cup as they do the Mosconi Cup.

Dale

Sealegs50
01-19-2014, 07:37 AM
If 13mm is stupid I'm a moron at 13.2

I also prefer 13.1-13.2 mm. 13 mm is my absolute minimum. Not only that, I prefer standard shafts with ivory ferrules (definitely non-LD). So buying new shafts is not as simple for me. If an owner has their shafts tapered below 13 mm, as a buyer, the cue becomes more expensive because I would need to have at least one new shaft made. But that is true for every cue that will be resold. Balance, weight, colors, wraps, inlays, ivory, price, all limit the market of interested buyers.

Tony_in_MD
01-19-2014, 07:41 AM
Ding, Ding ,Ding, we have a winner.


why not just buy an extra shaft the desired size and save the 13mm for when resale is considered.

Ken_4fun
01-19-2014, 07:44 AM
Old Josswest routinely came with 13.5 - 14mm shafts. But for some reason of all the cues I buy, they get widdled down to 12mm or less.

If you think that it doesn't matter what size the shafts are for any cue in secondary market you don't know much.

As suggested above, if you want to play less than 13mm shaft I would get another shaft. Then when you sell the cue you have (2) full size shafts.

Ken

Tony_in_MD
01-19-2014, 07:45 AM
Actually, the last two customs I had done for myself, had three shafts.

One modified to the taper and tip diameter I prefer, the other two shafts left standard by the cue maker.

This way of I do sell the cues, they will come with two unplayed pristine shafts.


How many cues have you heard of that were sold on the basis of having one unplayed shaft? I've heard this for years and have never found it to be true. Most of the cues I've sold have had at least two shafts, both/all of them played with and I've never had someone tell me: "Gee, if one shaft hadn't been played with, I'd buy it but since they've both/all been played with, I'll pass."

vasilios
01-19-2014, 08:02 AM
If 13mm is stupid I'm a moron at 13.2

13.3 Myself - love the drive ability




bill

Lesh
01-19-2014, 08:27 AM
I could put English on a ball with a 16mm tip as well, just not as easily.
So, I formally apologize for saying I can put MORE junk on the ball.... I mean to say is that it is indeed EASIER....... FOR ME to do so with a smaller diameter tip. For other players that are so far advanced from my piddly insignificant skill level. they can get English on the ball simply by staring at the CB indignantly.... such is their power and awesomeness at the table. I worship all of you that have such power....

http://watermarked.cutcaster.com/cutcaster-photo-100122040-Golden-Laced-Wyandotte-chicken-pecking.jpg

::::::pickpickpickpickpickpickpickpickpickpick:::: :::

Love,

Lesh

HawaiianEye
01-19-2014, 09:27 AM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

I agree 100%. I always played with 14mm tips...custom ordered from the cue makers.

cuesblues
01-19-2014, 09:38 AM
Bill Skinner in Denver plays with Fat thirteens'. Some of his many cues hit sweet, he must have six or eight or more new Kikels. He custom designed and had then made up over the past twenty five years or so. He has that addiction. :thumbup:

According to Bill, those shafts weigh 5-oz, and they are they last of Dave's super dense shaftwood.
I have Bill's old Ernie Martinez cue from 1993, and the shafts weigh 4.6 oz.
Bill refers to most shafts as "balsa wood", and I guess Henry Granis had something to do with Bill's preference for front weighted cues.

Ralph Kramden
01-19-2014, 10:35 AM
I prefer a 13mm tip on a pro taper shaft as it feels the same throughout the stroke.

13mm tips on a straight taper shaft feel thick, but 12.5mm straight tapers are okay.
Snooker cues use the smaller diameter tips but usually have a straight taper shaft.

mortuarymike-nv
01-19-2014, 10:55 AM
According to Bill, those shafts weigh 5-oz, and they are they last of Dave's super dense shaftwood.
I have Bill's old Ernie Martinez cue from 1993, and the shafts weigh 4.6 oz.
Bill refers to most shafts as "balsa wood", and I guess Henry Granis had something to do with Bill's preference for front weighted cues.


I have never heard of a 5oz shaft. 4oz shaft is heavy and they are some what rare.
MMike

pdcue
01-19-2014, 11:22 AM
I could put English on a ball with a 16mm tip as well, just not as easily.
So, I formally apologize for saying I can put MORE junk on the ball.... I mean to say is that it is indeed EASIER....... FOR ME to do so with a smaller diameter tip. For other players that are so far advanced from my piddly insignificant skill level. they can get English on the ball simply by staring at the CB indignantly.... such is their power and awesomeness at the table. I worship all of you that have such power....



Love,

Lesh

So, a quick review - a smaller tip - by itself, does not affect spin,
not more spin, easier spin, spiny-er spin.

It also doesn't enable more accurate cueing of the cue ball.

Where is Iron Mike when we need him?

Dale

Lesh
01-19-2014, 01:06 PM
So, a quick review - a smaller tip - by itself, does not affect spin,
not more spin, easier spin, spiny-er spin.

It also doesn't enable more accurate cueing of the cue ball.

Where is Iron Mike when we need him?

Dale


It is my contention that one may impart MORE spin with LESS effort with a smaller diameter tip.

So... it is implied, all things being finite, yes I do think that I can apply more spin to a cue ball with a smaller diameter tip. Less effort = more yield while maintaining optimal velocity... staying in your accuracy comfort zone.

Hit too hard and it affects your accuracy. A Smaller diameter tip makes sense to me to have greater mobility with the cue ball while not spearing the dang thing with a fatter tip.

Swing for the fences my friend.

Lesh

pdcue
01-20-2014, 05:11 AM
It is my contention that one may impart MORE spin with LESS effort with a smaller diameter tip.

So... it is implied, all things being finite, yes I do think that I can apply more spin to a cue ball with a smaller diameter tip. Less effort = more yield while maintaining optimal velocity... staying in your accuracy comfort zone.

Hit too hard and it affects your accuracy. A Smaller diameter tip makes sense to me to have greater mobility with the cue ball while not spearing the dang thing with a fatter tip.

Swing for the fences my friend.

Lesh

Ok. We understood the first fourteen times what you think.

Any and all difference is only in your mind.

Dale(mindfull of differences)

flyvirginiaguy
01-20-2014, 09:43 AM
If 13mm is stupid I'm a moron at 13.2

Yes, I use 13.2 as well. And I have no problems with spin etc...

I also know a few players who used 13.5mm

It is more about comfort in the bridge hand, than it is one of spin imo.

randyg
01-20-2014, 12:03 PM
One of our answers lies in the fact that only 3mm of tip strike the cue ball on any size tip.

Another answer is......hand size.

randyg

Dunnn51
01-20-2014, 12:22 PM
All I know is anything beyond 12mm wide looks like a telephone pole to me. Someone once let me use their break cue once (was a ________ - hammer) ? It had a 14mm shaft with a phenolic tip. I was glad I only broke with it.
Not gonna comment on the shaft dia/spin argument. I think stroke would have more to play in that regard.

Webbs Billiards
01-20-2014, 12:50 PM
People who are looking for potential resale of a cue generally order a 13mm from me, and the ones that are looking for a player typically order anywhere from 10-12.75mm. Personally, I prefer the 12 with a dime.

bflgvs
01-20-2014, 12:51 PM
One of our answers lies in the fact that only 3mm of tip strike the cue ball on any size tip.

Another answer is......hand size.

randyg

Randy,

If I understand you correctly, no matter what size the tip only 3mm of tip contacts the cue ball. Now, does the shape of the tip come into play? If so, does the hardness of the tip become a factor?

I agree with your 'other answer' of hand size. In the 1960's hand size was the factor determining the shaft diameter if you used a closed bridge. There wasn't any talk about more spin with a small diameter shaft. The factor of deflection or squirt (LD shafts) didn't enter into the equation. Taper was a different story, but not a major one.

randyg
01-20-2014, 02:31 PM
Randy,

If I understand you correctly, no matter what size the tip only 3mm of tip contacts the cue ball. Now, does the shape of the tip come into play? If so, does the hardness of the tip become a factor?

I agree with your 'other answer' of hand size. In the 1960's hand size was the factor determining the shaft diameter if you used a closed bridge. There wasn't any talk about more spin with a small diameter shaft. The factor of deflection or squirt (LD shafts) didn't enter into the equation. Taper was a different story, but not a major one.



You have the correct knowledge. You are also correct about tip shape. Too get max tip to ball, round surface works the best. We have all heard about the Nickel or Dime shape.

Tip hardness plays very little difference.

I grew up with 14mm tips. What I like about my 11.75 is the sighting on the cue ball. I am feeling that I am able to be more exact. Now whether that's true or not is in my results of course.

If I were to purchase a new cue, tip size would be important....11.75

Have a great day
randyg

Craig Fales
01-20-2014, 02:41 PM
13 mm is the gold standard for how big a shaft is more than likely going to start out. People order them all different sizes but when it comes to the secondary market, shaft size is the biggest knock card in the deck. It doesnt matter if someone plays with an 11 mm and is looking at a cue with 12.25 mm shafts, the price is going to be effected. Its just like a Honda with 300K miles, it probably runs perfect but the high mileage is a key factor in negotiation. Take two identical Southwest cues for example, there are tons out there but one with two 13 mm shafts is going to be more desireable than one with two 12 mm shafts even if they were done by Southwest.

There is also a big difference when someone orders a cue to play with or orders a cue to flip. Any cue I have ever ordered to play with I had one shaft made 13 mm and the other one the diameter I wanted to pay with.
Just like 58" length and 19 oz. have been accepted as a MEDIAN for cues. You can take a cue and size it wherever you want of course but these and 13 mm tips are considered a middle of the road starting point.

Icon of Sin
01-20-2014, 02:52 PM
I usually like a 11.75mm & 12.75/13mm shafts available to me when I play...different tables, cloth, temps/humidity, etc..

Really? you switch cues/shafts depending on equipment and venue? :confused:

Bavafongoul
01-20-2014, 04:12 PM
I switch shafts on my Mottey depending on the table condition. In a tournament, I'd generally use 1-2 shafts if I changed tables by advancing.
The 3rd shaft is mainly back-up but it's also the heaviest shaft at 4.3 ounces and my cue plays 18.6 ounces with that shaft. I use it when the
cloth is dirty and there's more drag on the cue ball or when the rails don't seem as lively......on clean Simonis 860, I seldom use that shaft and
use one of the other shafts which allow my cue to play lighter. The lightest shaft weighs 3.8 ounces and all of the shafts are original.

ignomirello
01-21-2014, 07:44 PM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

(If size don't matter) I want to see you draw the cue full length of the table with a broom handle.

Lesh
01-21-2014, 08:46 PM
Ok. We understood the first fourteen times what you think.

Any and all difference is only in your mind.

Dale(mindfull of differences)

Your momma is so fat, she uses bacon as a band-aid.


Lesh

Straightpool_99
01-21-2014, 10:37 PM
....................

Ratta
01-21-2014, 11:19 PM
Randy,

If I understand you correctly, no matter what size the tip only 3mm of tip contacts the cue ball. Now, does the shape of the tip come into play? If so, does the hardness of the tip become a factor?

I agree with your 'other answer' of hand size. In the 1960's hand size was the factor determining the shaft diameter if you used a closed bridge. There wasn't any talk about more spin with a small diameter shaft. The factor of deflection or squirt (LD shafts) didn't enter into the equation. Taper was a different story, but not a major one.


Like Randy already answered (as usual correctly :p ), your *thoughts* hit the nail.
About the tip-hardness.

A softer tip just have *a bit longer* contact with the cueball as the hard tip. A hard tip has caused by this a bit more deflection (just a bit- but it has).
That s why i also recommend a softer tip to beginners all the time. Because it is more forgiving.

And the shaft has to feel right for the *player*. And here comes the size of the hand into the game :-)

cuenut
01-21-2014, 11:55 PM
What do you guys mean by a soft tip and larger diameter are "more forgiving"? If you are saying that they provide asmaller margin of error, making it easier to make a shot, then it would seem logical that every pro in the world would use them to increase their shot making percentage. I think the only thing that a soft tip will do for you is make it less likely to miscue because of the contact time with the cueball. I also think that relative to compression of a tip, the contact surface area, except for probably a break shot, is bigger with a soft tip, which is the reason you should expect fewer miscues. Other than that, I think the hand size/comfort plays a big part in what people like to play with, but in terms of flipping cues, I think anything under 12.75 reduces the number of potential buyers. I like the order with 3 shafts idea. one to your personal preferences and the other two at or very close to 13mm for future marketing.

Ratta
01-22-2014, 12:13 AM
What do you guys mean by a soft tip and larger diameter are "more forgiving"? If you are saying that they provide asmaller margin of error, making it easier to make a shot, then it would seem logical that every pro in the world would use them to increase their shot making percentage. I think the only thing that a soft tip will do for you is make it less likely to miscue because of the contact time with the cueball. I also think that relative to compression of a tip, the contact surface area, except for probably a break shot, is bigger with a soft tip, which is the reason you should expect fewer miscues. Other than that, I think the hand size/comfort plays a big part in what people like to play with, but in terms of flipping cues, I think anything under 12.75 reduces the number of potential buyers. I like the order with 3 shafts idea. one to your personal preferences and the other two at or very close to 13mm for future marketing.


Hi Scott;

when i used the words *more forgiving* it was about to prevent you to *scratch* by giving *much english*. Also if you have a very very stiff shaft, a softer tip makes the *shaft* a bit more forgiving. A softer tip generally is a bit more forgiving if you go out of the center of the cueball.

And of course the thoughts about marketing is right. If you have in mind, to resale a cue, you should always have an original shaft *like new*.

The Renfro
01-22-2014, 01:49 AM
Like Randy already answered (as usual correctly :p ), your *thoughts* hit the nail.
About the tip-hardness.

A softer tip just have *a bit longer* contact with the cueball as the hard tip. A hard tip has caused by this a bit more deflection (just a bit- but it has).
That s why i also recommend a softer tip to beginners all the time. Because it is more forgiving.

And the shaft has to feel right for the *player*. And here comes the size of the hand into the game :-)

C'mon Ratta =) There is more to tip dwell and response than just hard and soft... I thought I sent you some Ki-Techs to try... IF not let me know and they will go out asap... I think you have enough students for me to write off 1 set.....

Chris

ddadams
01-22-2014, 02:14 AM
I love 13mm now that I have a sugartree, IMHO comfort comes more from taper than MM. Plus all this bs of you can get more spin/english with small tip is just retarded...

-Drew

I played with 11.5-11.75mm before I bought a Sugartree

Now 12.75 is all I really want. Eric really knows how to make small MM shaft guys enjoy fuller sized shafts. His taper is awesome.

Menelaus10
01-22-2014, 08:36 AM
In my opinion if your buying a cue as an investment you should not be playing with it, at least not much, so go with the 13mm. If your buying it to use as a regular shooter, or personal playing cue, pick the size that you prefer to play with and don't worry about resale values.

Lesh
01-22-2014, 08:50 AM
Well, that escalated quickly!

There is a reason why you never see people using more than 14 mm shafts. Beyond this size the shafts become stiff (unless thinner in the middle), and the deflection becomes huge. At some point it becomes difficult to hit low enough without elevating when drawing the ball. I believe there is a rule banning more than 14 mm shafts also.

I have a custom with a very stiff 13 mm shaft and the deflection is just too much to deal with for me, even though I tried to get used to it for a long time. On the long, hard inside english shots it feels like I have to aim two balls to the side of the intended contact point, and backhand english messes up my stroke. I prefer playing with a z2. I can draw and follow with the stiff shaft, but it takes effort for me. The z2 just does not take any effort at all, and the deflection is low even with paralell english.

Im just having some fun because I find it impossible to not have the last word. I am not the bigger man when there exists the possibility that I might get some kind of enjoyment. So I went in with a good old "yo momma" joke in trade for the snark.

Thanks for the comment, makes perfect sense. I have a friend that recently got ahold of a snooker cue with ea 9.5mm tip on it and he let me shoot with it. It actually felt like I was reaching a point of diminishing returns where Cue Ball control were concerned and tip size with regard to american pool balls and 9 foot tables. Still it was even easier to spin the ball than it is with my 11.75mm Z-shaft. Not my cup of tea, but good a experience.

Regards,

Lesh

Aaron_S
01-22-2014, 09:11 AM
Seems like I read somewhere that the Miz used a 14mm shaft.

I have played with everything from 11.25 to 13, and I never felt there was much of an advantage (for myself) between small vs. large diameter. I used to feel that I could draw the ball more with a sub 12mm shaft, but I have since figured out that if I ever need to draw the ball 20 feet, I'm playing the game wrong.

I do think this is a highly personal thing, though. My game is tremendously sensitive to shaft diameter, and it takes me a couple of months (playing 4 or 5 hours a week) to fully adjust to a new shaft. I recently had my spare shaft turned down to match my main shaft. It is very close, perhaps within .1 or .2 mm, but I still can't use the shafts interchangeably. If I try to load a ball up with side spin, I'll drive it right into the rail with the slightly larger shaft. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, it just has slightly more deflection than my normal player - enough so that it can make me go from dead punch to missing every spin shot by a half inch. It's the same for me when I put a new tip on; I'll be totally lost for the first 10-20 hours.

Re: shaft diameter, my approach is to simply find something that is comfortable in my hand (in all the different bridges I use), and adapt to it.

Aaron

Island Drive
01-22-2014, 02:51 PM
Seems like I read somewhere that the Miz used a 14mm shaft.

I have played with everything from 11.25 to 13, and I never felt there was much of an advantage (for myself) between small vs. large diameter. I used to feel that I could draw the ball more with a sub 12mm shaft, but I have since figured out that if I ever need to draw the ball 20 feet, I'm playing the game wrong.

I do think this is a highly personal thing, though. My game is tremendously sensitive to shaft diameter, and it takes me a couple of months (playing 4 or 5 hours a week) to fully adjust to a new shaft. I recently had my spare shaft turned down to match my main shaft. It is very close, perhaps within .1 or .2 mm, but I still can't use the shafts interchangeably. If I try to load a ball up with side spin, I'll drive it right into the rail with the slightly larger shaft. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, it just has slightly more deflection than my normal player - enough so that it can make me go from dead punch to missing every spin shot by a half inch. It's the same for me when I put a new tip on; I'll be totally lost for the first 10-20 hours.

Re: shaft diameter, my approach is to simply find something that is comfortable in my hand (in all the different bridges I use), and adapt to it.

Aaron

Saw a couple Mizerak Buskas, they both were sixty inch cues, no story as to how they were acquired by the reliable owner of em, tho an employee took both cues and quit work, probably around 1979.

SCCues
01-23-2014, 07:15 AM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.

I hear what you're saying and on the playing part I agree that I can't play with a 13mm shaft, but trying to sell a high dollar cue with skinny shafts doesn't work well from my experience. I don't know where or how 13mm became the standard, but to get top dollar for a high dollar cue you have your best chance if you have 2 pristine 13mm shafts from the cue maker who built the cue.

Island Drive
01-23-2014, 07:24 AM
I hear what you're saying and on the playing part I agree that I can't play with a 13mm shaft, but trying to sell a high dollar cue with skinny shafts doesn't work well from my experience. I don't know where or how 13mm became the standard, but to get top dollar for a high dollar cue you have your best chance if you have 2 pristine 13mm shafts from the cue maker who built the cue.

Perfect :thumbup::thumbup2:

desi2960
01-23-2014, 10:05 AM
when someone orders a cue from me and ask for a 11 1/2 or 12 mm shaft i hate it, because if after the cue is made they decide they dont like the hit, finish, looks, or their wife decides they cannot spend the money. then i am stuck with a cue that is almost impossible to sell.
the market for 11 1/2 mm shafts is very thin, so most boilders are making cues with 12 3/4 to 13 mm shafts, they can always be made smaller, but its real tough making them thicker>

HawaiianEye
01-23-2014, 10:31 AM
With the exception of the LAST custom shaft I had made, I ALWAYS had the cue makers make me 14mm shafts for PLAYING with.

I can get as much English as I need with a 14mm. I can draw the cue ball up and down the table on a 9-footer. I don't think I would EVER need to draw the ball more than 18 feet in most situations.

I CAN'T count the number of people who have commented on HOW MUCH English I can put on the ball, with relatively ease...as compared to MOST of the people they see playing.

When they saw that I was doing it with a 14mm, they were even MORE suprised. They had never seen anybody playing with a shaft that big.

One guy nicknamed me "MONSTER STROKE" in a tournament when he saw how I could draw the ball so far with that BAZOOKA.

To each his own, but I will still SWEAR by 14mm shafts for playing with.

HawaiianEye
10-10-2016, 10:47 PM
Just ran across this old thread, from long ago, when I was searching for something else.

It made me laugh.

I had Scot Sherbine make me a custom 14mm shaft just a month or so ago, when I sent one of my old Titlist conversions to him for refinish.

BmoreMoney
10-10-2016, 10:58 PM
Since when did 13mm for a shaft become a "standard" or was considered "full size"? IMO its pretty stupid to order a custom cue with full size shafts knowing fully well that you're not going to play with them - but not getting them would affect the resale value.

As far as I'm concerned, a shaft no matter what diameter as long as it was turned by the cue maker is ok.

When I order my cues I get what I play with ( 12mm). I'm not thinking about nor worried about resale . I believe the 12mm thing is so it apeals to the most amount of buyers. ie : No one plays with a bigger shafts than 13mm ( other than a few freaks ) and there are a fair amount that likes 13mm . So if someone is buying a cue 13 is the " safe shafts size. If they like fat ( 13) they got it. if they like less - easily turned down to whatever. I totally get aLloyd of that, what I don't get is ordering and spending all that money on a new cue and not getting EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT and worrying about resale????? You're buying the cue for you, not the next guy. Screw the next guy . The only thing I can think of is maybe a wanna be flupper that thinks - I'll buy this and play with it for awhile and then sell it ( guess cause they can't really afford it in the first place????

Awizzzy
10-11-2016, 04:45 AM
Let me go ahead and just end this conversation right now..

1. 13mm makes sense if you plan on having it for an investment. That way, when you do sell it to somebody that wants to use it as a player, can turn it down to what the individual likes. In all woodworking, You always leave a little extra because you can't add more later on.

2. Additional shafts can be made and ring work matched if you wish to add value to a cue. It may not always be the same cue maker, but one of equal talent and willing to do it is sufficient. I personally like my shaft and taper smaller due to my small hands. I would buy a cue though with 13mm tips and turn down the shafts, or just buy a cue with smaller tips and taper.

3. Value has always been in the eye of the beholder. If somebody believes that it is worth it, then it is. If not, then they don't buy it.

So to answer your question 'thefonz', 13mm is not too big and not too small making it the "standard size" for shafts.

:D:D:D:thumbup::thumbup:

smashmouth
10-11-2016, 04:53 AM
dr dave's research proves most of the above info factually incorrect

13 mm vs the popular smaller sizes means next to nothing

Black-Balled
10-11-2016, 06:46 AM
4 is dumb, but 3 and 5 are awesome.

Go figger.

poolguy4u
10-11-2016, 07:18 AM
:smile:



Yes this is an old thread and I read through the responses and thought...

this was the old days when all the people responding actually shoot pool

and have experience.


:woot:


.

Bob Callahan
10-11-2016, 07:57 AM
Snooker uses small balls and requires lots of accuracy.
It's played with small shafts/tips.

3-cushion uses large balls and requires lots of English.
It's played with small shafts/tips.

I rest my case.

nick serdula
10-11-2016, 08:56 AM
In his book he said 13 mm 19 oz. Kind of funny because he played 21 oz.
Bushwhacker beat everyone playing 19 oz 13 mm.
Dick the ball making machine played 13.25 mm 21 ozs. No one beat him either.
But they were money players.
And couldn't be beat.
Smaller shafts? Less deflection. Straighter shooting. Make you grow a heart and loose all your money!
Truth is whatever you are used to works for you.
Nick :)

Bavafongoul
10-12-2016, 01:46 AM
From my observations, thin shafts, like 12mm, lean towards the lighter weight side.
Shaft weight proportionality is a factor in the feel of the cue........just play with shafts
weighing 3.3 - 3.4 ozs and then try shafts > 4 ounces. They do not feel the same (IMO).

Now before we embark upon discussing shaft diameter & taper length of taper that are
indeed very important factors, a 3.5 ounce shaft on a 15.75 ounce butt (19.25 ozs) tends
to feel kinda different than a 4.25 ounce shaft on a 15 ounce butt (19,25 ozs.). Every
cue-maker I've spoken with acknowledges that the wood selected for the cue's shafts is
very important and they were very careful about the weight of the cue shafts and cue butt.

Now admittedly I was speaking with cue-makers that build custom cues but be that as it may,
there was unanimous agreement that the weight of a cue shaft was very important to the
feel, balance, and hit of a cue. It is very hard to produce a 12mm shaft that weighs 4 ozs. or
more which is easy to accomplish with 13mm shafts, even when the shaft is flat faced wood.

The bottom-line is everyone plays with what they like & what one man likes another might not.