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Rickw
03-26-2003, 01:25 PM
I watch the women on TV and I'm really impressed with the way Allison Fisher and Karen Corr play. All aspects of their game seem to be exceptional. I don't care who you are, if you are running racks, it doesn't matter who you're playing or more to the point, whose sitting in the chair. I know people wonder about this but I'd like to know if anyone knows if Allison or Karen have played any of the men and if so, how they did.

Ken in CT
03-26-2003, 06:21 PM
Allison toured with Grady Matthews and played a bit below even against him (he says he carried her). She has beaten Tommy Kennedy in one of his tournaments coming from the one loss side to win twice. She doesn't play men very much as far as I know. I doubt she could make a profit playing in the open tournaments but anybody not in the top 25 in the world can't either.

Karen plays in a lot of men's tournaments. In her many Joss appearances she has been in the money and usually places in the top quarter of the field. She is overdue to win one but the problem is that there will be at least 10 men in the field with just as good a chance to win as her. When she matches up against a pro she has a tough time but she used to be beaten by the "A" players. She seems to dominate them now. I saw her in a straight pool tournament and she looked good but not near the top of the field. I don't know how she finished.
Ken in CT

AzHousePro
03-26-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Ken in CT
Allison toured with Grady Matthews and played a bit below even against him (he says he carried her). She has beaten Tommy Kennedy in one of his tournaments coming from the one loss side to win twice. She doesn't play men very much as far as I know. I doubt she could make a profit playing in the open tournaments but anybody not in the top 25 in the world can't either.


I remember talking to Tommy after that tournament that she beat him in. He sounded like he was in awe of her game.

Made a commment along the lines of 'She just didn't miss. She doesn't have to lose to anyone'.

Mike

bruin70
03-26-2003, 06:49 PM
citing "instances" when allison or karen has beaten a man mean nothing since the same can be said when a A or A+ beats a pro. IT HAPPENS. it's because of the nature of the game(ie that pool is the only game where an opponent might NEVER get a chance to play) that better players getting beat by their lessers is a common occurance.

karen and allison are so far above the rest of the women's tour, that it's almost a farce. playing men is not a case of whether they can keep their opponent in the chair,,,it's that the men can do the same to them. the rest of the women can't do this.

AzHousePro
03-26-2003, 06:55 PM
I absolutely agree about Allison and Karen. There is no camparison between their games and the other players.

Lets hope that players like Shaw and Ellerby are able to step up to that level in a couple years. I see no reason why Shaw and Ellerby won't be top 8 players by the end of this year.


Mike

bruin70
03-26-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Gremlin
Ken,

Karen has defeated more than 20 men on the Joss Tour. Mika

3 times, Ginky, Mike Zuglan I can't remember them all. It is the

truth you know. I am not lying. You watch it don't you?

Cheers,

Gremlin;)

and how many men have beaten karen?
and how many SUPPOSEDLY lesser men players have beaten karen?......and compared that to how many women other than allison have beaten her, especially the last two years.

Ken in CT
03-26-2003, 07:36 PM
Harry, I am well aware of the men that Karen has beaten. My opinion of the reason she has not won a Joss event is that she has not played often enough. Many "A" players have won a Joss event but there are enough pros and semi-pros playing to make it difficult.

Don't imply that I might call you a liar. I don't know where you get your attitude but I've had enough of it. If you want to take over this board too, I will just stay out of it and leave it to you.
Ken in CT

AzHousePro
03-26-2003, 08:43 PM
No one is taking over any boards around here. We can have an honest debate without name calling.

While I certainly do not want to take anything away from the games of Karen and Allison, I know of male pro players who can beat any man out there, but has problems playing the women.

It is a different kind of pressure when you are playing someone like Strickland in front of the world than it is to play a female that can beat you in front of your peers.

Mike

bruin70
03-26-2003, 09:55 PM
mike nailed it on the nuts. there are many reasons for karen's success,,,not the least of which is mike's noting that men might approach their game differently when playing a female. making absolute statements when intangibles are involved is oversimplifying. however, we know where harry comes from. and besides,,,i saw a B player, who had gotten beat by jennifer baretta a week earlier, go 2-2 in the 10ball tourney at atlantic city.

but harry never answered my question,,,or is he saying karen has placed in every men's tournament she's entered.

jjinfla
03-27-2003, 05:33 AM
Karen and Allison would be foolish to compete head to head with the men. How many men out there play at their level? A few hundred? Maybe a thousand? How many women play at their level? 6? Maybe a dozen. I just think it is more profitable and easier for them just to compete against women. I did see Jeannie Seaver play Archer. She won the break and broke and ran three racks. Then I suppose she remembered who she was playing and ended up losing the match. You just can't make mistakes when playing someone of Archer's caliber. I suspect that Jeannie and Tracie Major will be moving into the women's pro tour. Jake

bruin70
03-27-2003, 06:43 AM
what i was saying hg, is that you put so much emphasis on what karen did successfully vs. the men, as if that were some yardstick to predict what she would do always. and i'm saying, what about those times vs. the men that she WASN'T successful. to look at karen's placings that you posted, i think you're assuming she would do this consistantly.

honestly, i'd say "no" to the yea-sayers, and defend the gals to the nay-sayers, because these men versus women issues are dumb*ss questions to begin with, and the women are better off avoiding the men altogether.

Rickw
03-27-2003, 11:28 AM
I guess the point I was trying to make is, the overall game of billiards in general is one of the few games that is not predicated on physical strength or stamina. In fact, an important skill to pocess to play at a very high level is touch or feel. Women might have the ability to excel in this area giving them the potential to be very competetive with men.

I've watched some of the women play because I was primarily interested in just seeing pool on TV. There just happens to be more women on TV playing pool than men. Because of that, I have sort of become a fan of Allison and Karen. Their game appears to be nearly flawless when they're playing other women. I'd just like to see if they can play the same way against the men.

Also, I think pool would grow in popularity if we opted to integrate the men and women. It would be the only sport that I know of that could do that. We definitely need something spectacular to bring this game to the forefront. It's a shame that players that have the skills of our top players (men and women) are making the prize-money they are. They should be making the kind of money the men snooker players are making in Great Britain or the tennis players in America.

AzHousePro
03-27-2003, 12:06 PM
I spend a lot of time watching pro pool being played. Between ESPN, Accu-Stats and going to a couple events, I get to see the men and women play quite a bit. (My wife might say I watch too much of it)

The women's games just seem to be very basic. Even Allison and Karen have games like this. Nearly flawless, but kind of basic.

You very seldom see them really make whitey do something that they need it to do. Maybe it is the fact that they know a length of the table safety where their opponent can still see the ball is sufficient against 90% of the women out there.

I will say that I think all of the Joss Tour events that Karen played in really helped her game. It is scary to think about where Allison's game would be if she played against the men more.

Mike

Chucklez65
03-27-2003, 12:34 PM
In my opinion....

Ive watched the women play on TV and in person and Ive watched the men play in person...and I thought they were pretty comparable....as far as ability went....but then I watched the BCA 9-Ball tournament last year in person...and then watched the finals...

Im sure most of you have seen a tourney similar to this format...in the finals they setup up only one table and then they play a Ladies' match and then a Men's match and then the Ladies' final and then the Men's final.

Now, I have a lot of respect for the women who play pool and have met many many who can out shoot me...but...

The difference in the shooting ability is very apparent when you watch the matches like this, at least at the pro level. I have always been an advocate of the women shooting with the men because I think that it would help their games a lot. In any given match I think that Karen or Allison could beat any other person in the world at their present abilities...but if played on a regular basis or in mulitple matches or even longer matches...I am not sure that they could hang very well. I will say that I think that they HAVE the ability to play much better if they were to HAVE to...ie against the men in more tournaments, but there is no need to play any better at the level they are at because they are already better, for the most part, than the people they play with every day. I believe, that in order to get better, you have to play against better people, and the players that they play with every day just dont bring out the the need for the added ability.

If you think way back...well, not that long...when Jean Balukas was playing, she was playing with the men all the time...and in my opinion she is the best woman player in the world thus far...but its hard to prove because she does not play, at least not in the public eye, any more. I do think that she obtained her added ability because she HAD to...but there is no money in it for the ladies today to attempt to play in more men's division tourneys ...and thus creates no need for them to try.

Im sure this will not be the most popular opinion...but it is my opinion.

Chucklez65

Vahe
03-28-2003, 07:29 AM
At the same BCA 9-ball event in Vegas last year, my wife and I were lucky enough to sit in the sky boxes with the help of player guest passes.

I overheard a conversation between Buddy Hall and Johnny Archer regarding Jean Balukas.

Buddy asked Johnny if he had played Jean, I don't recall his response, but he did say that he was around (touring) when she was still playing. Buddy mentioned spliiting 2 matches with Jean in tournamnets, he also mentioned watching Earl play Jean and knowing he was in trouble when Earl started checking Jean's racks.

The interesting comment was this: Johnny Archer said "the only women playing now that would have a chance against Jean would be Allison and Karen".

Buddy Hall's response was "your're right, they would only have a CHANCE'.

I think they are both qualified judges of players and their skill levels.

Vahe
03-28-2003, 07:36 AM
At the same BCA 9-ball event in Vegas last year, my wife and I were lucky enough to sit in the sky boxes with the help of player guest passes.

I overheard a conversation between Buddy Hall and Johnny Archer regarding Jean Balukas.

Buddy asked Johnny if he had played Jean, I don't recall his response, but he did say that he was around (touring) when she was still playing. Buddy mentioned spliiting 2 matches with Jean in tournamnets, he also mentioned watching Earl play Jean and knowing he was in trouble when Earl started checking Jean's racks.

The interesting comment was this: Johnny Archer said "the only women playing now that would have a chance against Jean would be Allison and Karen".

Buddy Hall's response was "your're right, they would only have a CHANCE'.

I think they are both qualified judges of players and their skill levels.

Adanac67
03-28-2003, 09:18 AM
Let's not get started on the Balukas/Fisher:Corr thing again. If Balukas was playing today she would be getting a whole bunch of 5/6ths and maybe as high as the odd 3rd. Dead Issue

As far as these two Fenoms playing against the men; the men don't want them. I have said for the last 3 years that Barry Hearn should be inviting these two to the WPC. I would be willing to bet that he has been getting rallied heavily by certain men not to allow them in. This is 9 ball. We all know anybody can beat anybody on any given day. If we were all honest we should also say that one or both of these women, if they were playing in the WPC, could get hot and win the whole ball of wax. Let's get real. If Ismael Paez( NO disrespect intended) can reach the finals then we all know these two outstanding women players can. We should all be rallying to have these two given invitations to the WPC instead of debating whether of not they can play. That was proven a long time ago.

Rich R.
03-28-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by AzHousePro

The women's games just seem to be very basic. Even Allison and Karen have games like this. Nearly flawless, but kind of basic.

You very seldom see them really make whitey do something that they need it to do. Maybe it is the fact that they know a length of the table safety where their opponent can still see the ball is sufficient against 90% of the women out there.
Mike, I think you hit the nail on the head. The women play a much more basic game. When given the choice between a risky shot and a safety, they will play the safety every time. Men are a little more inclined to take a risk, once in a while. The women have to get a little more agressive at the table, before they can compete with the men. It is not an issue of talent, it is an issue of attitude.

Rich R.

AzHousePro
03-28-2003, 12:37 PM
I assume you mean that if Jean was playing in open events today.

As far as Barry inviting the ladies to play in the WPC, Allison played in a Matchroom event a year or so ago. She lost in the first round to Quinten Hann.

http://www.azbilliards.com/wpmasters2001/release4.html

Originally posted by Adanac67
Let's not get started on the Balukas/Fisher:Corr thing again. If Balukas was playing today she would be getting a whole bunch of 5/6ths and maybe as high as the odd 3rd. Dead Issue

As far as these two Fenoms playing against the men; the men don't want them. I have said for the last 3 years that Barry Hearn should be inviting these two to the WPC. I would be willing to bet that he has been getting rallied heavily by certain men not to allow them in. This is 9 ball. We all know anybody can beat anybody on any given day. If we were all honest we should also say that one or both of these women, if they were playing in the WPC, could get hot and win the whole ball of wax. Let's get real. If Ismael Paez( NO disrespect intended) can reach the finals then we all know these two outstanding women players can. We should all be rallying to have these two given invitations to the WPC instead of debating whether of not they can play. That was proven a long time ago.

bruin70
03-28-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Adanac67
Let's not get started on the ,,,,,could get hot and win the whole ball of wax. Let's get real. If Ismael Paez( NO disrespect intended) can reach the finals then we all know these two outstanding women players can. We should all be rallying to have these two given invitations to the WPC instead of debating whether of not they can play. That was proven a long time ago.

logical thinking would say that you are right. after all,,,pool is not mano-a-mano. skills should be equal. yet the fact that, really, only these two would have a chance and the rest could just not get it done, defies the logic. however, i can't even see these two getting anywhere in a major unless they got a great draw. and that allison could barely draw even with matthews, who is an old, non-factor in 9ball.

btw, i don't think allison is as good now as when she first came to the US.

Adanac67
03-28-2003, 07:48 PM
I assume you mean that if Jean was playing in open events today.

HA HA HA Very funny Mike. I was OF COURSE talking about the WPBA and even at that I may have been giving her too much credit. The old analogy holds true for dear ol Jean. The older I get the better I was. Anyway, enough of the past.

As far as the WPC goes. Do you seriously believe that ALL of the 128 men who played last year are better than Corr and Fisher? I didn't think so.

Mike. One tournament is no way to judge the quality of a player. You should know better than that although it makes your arguement look better. How about all of the times Reyes was knocked out early? Does that also make him unworthy? Come on.
What are you all scared of? Let them play and see what happens. We all honestly know they deserve to be there.

czar
03-28-2003, 08:30 PM
Honestly, is this even any kind of arguement? As any serious player knows, whether you are pro, A, B, or C, or even a roadie, on any given day anybody can beat anybody else. Bar rookies have beaten pros, women have beaten men, etc... why not just enjoy the fact that within this sport we all love, at any given time ,we are all capable of beating the next guy, whomever that may be.

jjinfla
03-29-2003, 06:55 AM
I think you guys are missing the point. When Allison enters a WPBA tournament she is the odds on favorite to win. Karen is her real competition. Sure, anyone in the field can beat her, but the odds are still with Allison. If Allison enters a tournament with top male pros the odds of her winning drop drastically. Sure, she probably can beat anyone on any give day, but it would be a tougher battle for her. So why should she take the chance of harming her image? I think it would be a PR blunder for her to try and compete against the men. She has very little to gain and a whole lot to lose. Jake

AzHousePro
03-29-2003, 01:27 PM
Something else to consider is how the women are treated in these events. I am not talking about the major events like Barry Hearn's. I am talking about smaller regional tour events.

I know of at least one top 5 female player who won a smaller regional event in the past couple years. She said she was badgered by some of the players before she even collected her prize money. They were woofing about how much weight they would give her if she wanted to match up. This particular player doesn't care to gamble and she was completely put off by the whole thing.

Mike

bruin70
03-29-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Adanac67


As far as the WPC goes. Do you seriously believe that ALL of the 128 men who played last year are better than Corr and Fisher? I didn't think so.



when fisher and korr go into a wpba event, anyone would be silly to bet against them going all the way. in a men's tourney, anyone would be silly betting ON them. the issue is not not whether they are capable. the issue is "would they". and just as men can get upset, these two can also, although i would not so far as to say they would be "upset".

the exhibition tour with matthews clearly shows where allison is at. it was an extended tour played over time, not some one shot tourney. it would be safe to say that allison plays at grady's speed or a little less(according to the results) and chances are the exhibition was not as rigorous as a pro tourney event.