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Varney Cues
07-08-2006, 11:03 PM
Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China. I know of one company that has now quit carrying them and replaced them with Tiger X shafts. They packed up all Predator shafts and sent them back...word is quality is slipping.

rackem
07-08-2006, 11:15 PM
Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China. I know of one company that has now quit carrying them and replaced them with Tiger X shafts. They packed up all Predator shafts and sent them back...word is quality is slipping.

You are saying now the shafts as well as the butts are also being made in China? I had heard a couple of years ago that Falcon was manufacturing the butt portions for Predator and that it was done in China.

Varney Cues
07-08-2006, 11:21 PM
Yes...shafts too now.

Fuji-whopper
07-08-2006, 11:26 PM
First Meucci and now Predator, who next? Maybe McDermott?

RiverCity
07-09-2006, 12:24 AM
Not if they are smart. Is Jims son still there?
Chuck

It's George Old Owner
07-09-2006, 12:51 AM
the world of production cues r coming to a standstill..hope this doesn't happen to customs!

DavidMNienow
07-09-2006, 01:40 AM
You are saying now the shafts as well as the butts are also being made in China? I had heard a couple of years ago that Falcon was manufacturing the butt portions for Predator and that it was done in China.

It's true Falcon was manufacturing the butt portions for Predator. That was while Falcon was still based in Canada. However, Falcon has made the move to Taiwan for their manufacturing, and all new Falcons starting in September will be coming out of Taiwan. Any existing Falcon you find right now from their currently existing lines will all have been made in Canada.

Craig Fales
07-09-2006, 05:39 AM
It seems everybody sells out eventually....:( ....I'm not a big fan of Predator to begin with....McDermotts seem to have gone down in quality aswell since Jim left...
________

predator
07-09-2006, 05:46 AM
Even if true, why would manufacturing a pool cue in China necessarily bring lower quality?

Black Cat 5791
07-09-2006, 05:55 AM
Well I happen to be a BIG FAN OF PREDATOR, and with that being said who cares where it's made as long as the quaility is there. It's just sad to black ball a company because of where the product is made, even if it's the best available. More comapnies go out of business because of attitudes that have been presented here, and besides that what makes any of you an authority on what a company does. As long as someone is not mis-representing where the shafts or the butts are being made there shouldn't be an issue. The products have lifetime warranties on them, there's never been any issues with Predator standing behind their products. If there's never been issue in the past untill some real issues start to surface then cut the crap.

By the way what kind of cars do you guy's drive?

Black Cat :mad:

NineBallNut
07-09-2006, 06:33 AM
the facts are that anytime a company dumps american manufacturing for overseas it is to lessen production costs. Now along with that usually comes a quality decrease. I like predator but will be very cautious to check the quality of the product before putting a ton of them in the store.
That does not mean you can't set up shop in china and still produce good products, it is just likely that we will see lower quality than what we have come to expect

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 07:21 AM
Well, we no longer carry Predator Products. Not because of a quality issue nor a country of origin issue. More to do with conflicting philosophies of how to do business. We sold quite a bit of Predator's products and always had plenty of stock on hand. Quite a standing investment if you will.

We are offering Tiger shafts and other products. The Tiger Shafts were not brought in to replace Predator but to exist alongside them. We find the Tiger shafts to be well made and getting favorable reviews from players. It is in response to customer requests that we have added Tiger to the line and we look forward to selling as many or more of these shafts as we did with Predator.

We find that there are excellent alternatives to the Predator shaft on the market and we plan to offer as many of these as our customers would like to see us offer. Predator has blazed a trail with their excellent research and marketing and we intend to follow their lead and add to their excellent body of work. We feel that with our sister company's engineering and testing capabilities we can test, compare and manufacture shafts and cues that are excellent performers technologically and aesthically beautiful.

John

PoolSleuth
07-09-2006, 08:07 AM
Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China. I know of one company that has now quit carrying them and replaced them with Tiger X shafts. They packed up all Predator shafts and sent them back...word is quality is slipping.


Hear that also Butts & Shafts form CHINA...:)

Scott Lee
07-09-2006, 09:23 AM
Several large 'American' production cue companies, and the largest wholesalers, including Cuestix, Cue & Case, and Sterling Gaming, all manufacture their product lines in China. That's no secret. Quality does not necessarily suffer...although there will always be some substandard manufacturing, regardless of where something is made. Lucasi and Fury are both well made, inexpensive, lines, even though they come from China. Can you find crappy cues made in China? Sure...just like you can find crappy cues made here too. However, truth be told, probably 80%+ of the cues made anywhere, for any company (American or not), come out of China...they just have a bunch of different names on them (many of which are very recognizable).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Snapshot9
07-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Even if true, why would manufacturing a pool cue in China necessarily bring lower quality?

Because they play mostly Snooker in China ... lol

Matt_24
07-09-2006, 02:38 PM
I know a fellow pool player who is a long standing predator shaft advocate, such as myself. He tried the new Tiger X shaft, and I asked him his honest opinion. He said, while it is a good shaft, it pales in comparison to the predator. As for me, I've used predator shafts for years and won't switch. Whether it is made in America, Mexico, or Anartica, if it meets the same standards of the past I will be happy.

You shouldn't discount a product just because it is made overseas.

Grilled Cheese
07-09-2006, 02:43 PM
All this Predator bashing sure sounds like a bunch of dealers who are trying to peddle a product line that has a higher margin.

The Predator still performs best

-->

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 02:45 PM
Why is that everyone is asked for their "honest" opinon? I have never been asked for my "dishonest" one. Asking me for my "honest" one assumes that I have more than one opinon on anything. I suppose it's another way of saying you don't want the "politically correct" one. I tend to just ask and interpret the answer I get without quantifying the answer before I get it.

John

JoeyInCali
07-09-2006, 02:45 PM
Even if true, why would manufacturing a pool cue in China necessarily bring lower quality?
B/c they are not moving there to improve quality?

Gregg
07-09-2006, 03:20 PM
This is an issue, not only with pool cues, but with almost any other product being made.

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 06:55 PM
All this Predator bashing sure sounds like a bunch of dealers who are trying to peddle a product line that has a higher margin.

The Predator still performs best

-->

I don't think that is true at all. Where something is produced is a valid concern for a lot of people for a variety of reasons. Quality is one, a country's human rights record for another. I believe that a company should disclose where their products are made and it's the law as well.

I personally feel that Predator should be able to have the same quality no matter where their products are produced. IF their quality were to suffer then the market would quickly make it known.

As for which products have high margins or not, do you begrudge Predator the margins they make on cues produced wholly or in part in countries wherer the price of labor is considerably less than in North America? Unless you are in a position to make all the costs of production and realted sales figures public knowledge then you are speaking from a platform of ignorance when it comes to who is making what.

I didn't really see that anyone bashed Predator here. I see some assumptions about their motivations and some speculation about whether the quality will suffer or not. I see plenty of folks who have praised Predator so I think you are reading a little too much here.

Lastly, "performs best" for what? According to their claims? According to your opinion? Have you tested each laminated shaft on the market to back up your claim? How did you test and where is your data? After all the claims Predator makes are supposed to be based on scientific testing so I hope that you can provide us with some data.

I wouldn't want to think that you were shilling in order to bash competing products and further the sale of what some people think are "overpriced" and overhyped products. Show me the performance difference in hard data and then I'll believe they are "better".

John

spliced
07-09-2006, 07:20 PM
Are there any other sites out there besides platinum billiards that compare the performance of all these high performance shafts?

Also, since there is no hollow cavity in the tiger shaft to reduce deflection, how is it's performance any different than a solid maple shaft, and how can it be compared to the predator in performance?

DavidMNienow
07-09-2006, 07:24 PM
To me the real issue at hand here is the issue of quality. Predator has set a bench march in terms of both quality & performance. For the consumer that has bought a Predator shaft those are the issues of importance. And that quality has been based in part of their investment in technology & labor that is based here in the USA.

And so now like so many manufacturers they are moving their production overseas, and in this case that's in China. If Predator can maintain their existing quality of their product while increasing their margin of profit, then more power to them. But are they prepared to maintain that existing commitment to product quality?. If Predator was as equally concerned about their product image as their quality then someone from Predator should be making some public annoucement about this new major direction in their business. And make some public affirmation about their quality committment.

And with lower production costs as result to switching production to China one would hope that they could even maintain their existing product quality while even lowering the SRP somewhat and still maintain a healthy profit margin. That would certainly benefit the consumer, and further cement their public & product image.

There are alot of companies that have switched their production overseas, been able to maintain and even extend their product quality, and satisfy consumer demand. But those companies maintain a strong committment to overseing how things are done in the manufacturing process to ensure that.
At this point we don't know what Predator is going to be doing to ensure their existing product quality. So that leaves a big question of concern for any consumer interested in buying their product. And it's a valid concern considering how many times products have lost their quality when a production switch to overseas has been made.

At this point all that can done by us billiard consumers is to watch & wait to see what comes out in the future.

wakuljr
07-09-2006, 08:10 PM
All this Predator bashing sure sounds like a bunch of dealers who are trying to peddle a product line that has a higher margin.

The Predator still performs best

-->

untrue, i am in the retail side of this industry. my store doesn't carry predator because the are rather exspencive. 98% of my cue customers think $100 for a cue is outlandish. i have had them in, had 4 in about 3 years ago.....couldn't sell them....to anyone for the price i had to ask. last year i dumped them at cost just to get them out. 4 of them cost me a pretty penny too, they ain't cheap. oh, and everycue in my store has the same margin, i make sure of that.

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 08:21 PM
Are there any other sites out there besides platinum billiards that compare the performance of all these high performance shafts?

Also, since there is no hollow cavity in the tiger shaft to reduce deflection, how is it's performance any different than a solid maple shaft, and how can it be compared to the predator in performance?

Performance is a measure of results. Predator shafts are constructed the way they are in order to rate higher according to the performance benchmarks that Predator determined were important. If one were to use the same criteria that Predator used to compare all other shafts then one could come up with quantifiable data to show where each shaft stands in relation to one another.

How the construction of a shaft affects performance is exactly why they are tested against each other. In the absence of blind testing all conclusions are just anecdotal.

Since Predator has set the bar for the sales of shafts that are supposed to be better through engineering and testing it's only fair that they be subject to an outside and independent test to determine where they stand in relation to all of the other "high-performance" shafts on the market.

John

Peer
07-09-2006, 09:16 PM
Varney Cues wrote:
> Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China.

I'm not sure if it's pure racial bigotry that makes people detest the fact that some products are produced in China (or any other foreign place, for that matter).

As long as a product corresponds to the expected quality, does it matter whether it's produced on the moon or in your backyard?

I don't get it.

-- peer

pete lafond
07-09-2006, 10:23 PM
Several large 'American' production cue companies, and the largest wholesalers, including Cuestix, Cue & Case, and Sterling Gaming, all manufacture their product lines in China. That's no secret. Quality does not necessarily suffer...although there will always be some substandard manufacturing, regardless of where something is made. Lucasi and Fury are both well made, inexpensive, lines, even though they come from China. Can you find crappy cues made in China? Sure...just like you can find crappy cues made here too. However, truth be told, probably 80%+ of the cues made anywhere, for any company (American or not), come out of China...they just have a bunch of different names on them (many of which are very recognizable).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


I agree and you can also buy some pretty good cues in the US, Europe,... We all play pool in all the countries so we should all take advantage. It's that damn oil we got t figure out..
.
.

Scott Lee
07-09-2006, 10:33 PM
I wouldn't want to think that you were shilling in order to bash competing products and further the sale of what some people think are "overpriced" and overhyped products. Show me the performance difference in hard data and then I'll believe they are "better".

John


tap,tap,tap! We have a like mind, John! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The PHOENIX
07-10-2006, 12:22 AM
John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Here is a billiard web site I found that relates to this subject.
http://www.usacues.com
Welcome to USA Pool Cues:
This website is dedicated to American Made Pool Cues. (snip, snip ) we specialize in American Made pool cues. We love US made pool cues not only for Patriotic reasons, but also because the best pool cues in the world are made in the USA! We sell American Made cues starting at $85.00!
US Pool Cue manufacturers offer many advantages over import cues, including:

Superior craftsmanship - Finish and Attention to Detail
Superior Playability - Better shaft wood and construction
Superior warranty - Many with lifetime warranties
Additional custom options - Viking, McDermott, Schmelke & Others
Superior Value - At the same price points, USA cues will play far better
We believe that the cue makers on this website make the best cues in the World!



Anything else !

recoveryjones
07-10-2006, 12:42 AM
[QUOTE=The PHOENIX]John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Tap! Tap! Tap!

Well written and very true.
RJ

Deadon
07-10-2006, 12:45 AM
It is not bigotry, ethnic or racial bias to prefer to buy American. Many people would rather support local businesses than companies that outsource their work. It is simply a preference, and understandable. I'll buy from the small family market on the corner before I'll go to Walmart to save a couple of dollars. That being said, if you can't buy a comperable quality product here, what choice do you have.

JoeyInCali
07-10-2006, 12:48 AM
It is not bigotry, ethnic or racial bias to prefer to buy American. Many people would rather support local businesses than companies that outsource their work. It is simply a preference, and understandable. I'll buy from the small family market on the corner before I'll go to Walmart to save a couple of dollars. That being said, if you can't buy a comperable quality product here, what choice do you have.
We make our choices.
Am not a racist or a bigot.
I collect knives. I do not buy knives made in China.

Gregg
07-10-2006, 05:56 AM
Varney Cues wrote:
> Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China.

I'm not sure if it's pure racial bigotry that makes people detest the fact that some products are produced in China (or any other foreign place, for that matter).

As long as a product corresponds to the expected quality, does it matter whether it's produced on the moon or in your backyard?

I don't get it.

-- peer

Within the industry I work in, most of the equipment is/was manufactured in either Japan or Germany. 35 years ago, when the first of the equipment started coming in, nobody wanted Japanese equipment; I don't know if it was anti war sentiment, the belief that Japan could not produce quality goods, or what.

Yes, Japan had some growing pains, but eventually they got it right. Today, nobody wants equipment that's not from Japan, correct?

Today, everybody is going to China. The Japanese, the Germans. It's strange to receive spare parts from our German manufactures from China; It's kind of like receiving genuine spare parts from BMW with a "made in China" sticker on it. But that's just how it is.

When Predator "introduced" their new line, like a lot of companies do, it's more of a way to introduce products NOW being manufactured in a different location, since the tooling and equipment is not going to duplicate their old equipment.

There are many ways to do this. Some chose to attempt to fly under the radar, and simply change the manufacturing facility and product without any fanfare or education of the consumer. Or they change the model to a new and not so improved model. This produces a "new and not so improved" product line, many times. Many times, people are willing to spend more money for new old stock inventory, or worse, as much for used equipment as new.

The problems arise when people start feeling duped when they are finding out that Predator is trying to pedal their cues and shafts at the same old price, when they are paying a fraction of the old production costs.

Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.

Purdman
07-10-2006, 07:01 AM
First Meucci and now Predator, who next? Maybe McDermott?

What do you mean next? Who do you think is making the McD Bluds? Mc D has had a relationship with China for quite some time.
Purdman:cool:

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 07:29 AM
John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Here is a billiard web site I found that relates to this subject.
http://www.usacues.com
Welcome to USA Pool Cues:
This website is dedicated to American Made Pool Cues. (snip, snip ) we specialize in American Made pool cues. We love US made pool cues not only for Patriotic reasons, but also because the best pool cues in the world are made in the USA! We sell American Made cues starting at $85.00!
US Pool Cue manufacturers offer many advantages over import cues, including:

Superior craftsmanship - Finish and Attention to Detail
Superior Playability - Better shaft wood and construction
Superior warranty - Many with lifetime warranties
Additional custom options - Viking, McDermott, Schmelke & Others
Superior Value - At the same price points, USA cues will play far better
We believe that the cue makers on this website make the best cues in the World!



Anything else !


Sure - most of the cuemakers on that site buy their wood from brokers who bring it in form Canada and all over the world, the steel comes from Japan for the joints, some of the cuemakers sell wood to China. Some of the cuemakers buy parts that came from foreign countries.

Some of the cuemakers trade their cues for other products made in foreign countries that they then sell in the USA.

It's all convoluted isn't it? Not quite so easy to understand that we all live on a planet that we cannot escape. The earth doesn't care how men carve it up and where they plant their flags. The cue you hold in your hands is the product of labor and natural resources from all over the globe no matter where the label says it was "made".

And as for Joe above. If he cared half as much about making a better world than getting a high paying job so he can afford more toys then he wouldn't be unemployed.

John

Craig Fales
07-10-2006, 07:35 AM
Even if true, why would manufacturing a pool cue in China necessarily bring lower quality?
just look at what historically comes from China....junk....and it doesn't matter who it is...once you go China quality goes south...


Today, everybody is going to China. The Japanese, the Germans. It's strange to receive spare parts from our German manufactures from China; It's kind of like receiving genuine spare parts from BMW with a "made in China" sticker on it. But that's just how it is.

Just more sellouts...

Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.

That's true...it's all about the quality when they are coming from China...
________

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 07:44 AM
Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.


It's advertising that got Predator where they are. Here's a challenge for you all. Find one piece of advertising anywhere where Predator ever revealed the origins of all the cues they sell.

Predator, like many other companies, buys product from many other companies that produce their goods in many locations.

Predator is not "selling out". Everyone assumes that when a company moves production to a new place that it is because of labor costs. There are many factors that influence a decision to do so. One big one is if the factory you previously used closes it's doors. This happened to me.

And Predator doesn't have the market cornered and they can't charge anything they want to for their shafts. Predator faces new competition daily. The wholesale, retail and consumer sectors do not have to absorb Predator's price increases and inconsistent delivery when they have options. They have to respond to market pressure like any other company with competition. If Predator could charge what they wanted then all the production would be done in Jacksonville and the shafts would cost $500 each with no discounts.

It's a vicious cycle. As long as the consumer dollars go to the lowest priced product then the production will flow to the lowest priced labor. The irony is that with more business the lowest cost labor countries begin to get a higher standard of living, a skilled workforce and younger generations of educated people who demand and get more for their work. So eventually, like Japan, they enter the first world dominion and are no longer attractive as low cost labor havens. Taiwan is beginning to do it's own research and development, it's own marketing, and it's own purchasing of global interests.

We all live on Earth.

John

Matt_24
07-10-2006, 07:53 AM
Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.

If the Predator products remain identical to those in the past (which I've personally always been quite happy with), then who cares where they are made. There is no sin in Predator making a profit.

Regarding any product...if Americans could make the same product in a factory, etc, and charge what the Chinese, Japanese, etc charge for production then it would be automatic that the companies would go through them. This is business. Also, this just isn't the case, whether we like it or not.

It is the same thing in the guitar market. For the longest time Japanese Fender Stratocasters were thought of to be a "cheaper" version than their American made counterpart. The same thing goes for the "Orville" guitars (Les Paul, etc) made in Japan (technically "Orville" by Gibson). You could buy these guitars on the second hand market for cheap prices. I guess I could throw the Ibanez name in their as well. In the last couple of years, people have realized that the Japanese manufacturers are making an equal (if not superior in the case of the Fenders) guitars and thus prices have risen on these guitars. Now these companies have "third" factories in Korea....so the guitars made in korea are the "cheap" versions. Why, because they're much cheaper to make and this reflects in the purchase price. Is the product cheaper?

We shouldn't be so blind to believe that just because a product comes from an overseas market and not "made in America", that it will be inferior. I've ready in particular about the exacting standards, and superb work ethic of the Japanese workforce. This is why all of their companies, products, etc have been such a success in America. Superb quality for superb prices. I know I have a Toyota and an Acura....and before that I had an Acura, and before that a Toyota, and before that a honda....................I didn't keep buying these vehicles because they were crap.

Anyhow, just wanted to throw in my two (or more like forty) cents.

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 07:54 AM
just look at what historically comes from China....junk....and it doesn't matter who it is...once you go China quality goes south...

Historically? In whose history? China has a rich history of innovation and has produced some of the most intricate art as well as some of the most technologically advanced things. China was the first nation to navigate and map the globe. There is compelling evidence that they colonised the Americas long before the Europeans.

I would put up all of our cues in the $100 and up range against any so-called "American" made cues in a blind test. Let's send them to a lab and have them tested with a wide range of criteria and see how they stack up. I think you will find that point-for-point the imported cues will hold their own. 15 years ago the differences were apparent to any layman. Now, I could put any name I want to on cues coming in and only the most experienced cuemaker/collector could tell the difference.

I saw Southwest style cues in Taiwan that "HIT" exactly like SouthWest cues. NO DIFFERENCE in hit, look, balance, feel and apparently workmanship. The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. The point being that good input equals good output. Given the technology, the knowledge and the right materials there is no reason why a JossWest cannot be produced in China.

John

supergreenman
07-10-2006, 08:17 AM
Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.
.

Do you mean to tell me you believe that the quality of a shaft made by a craftsman who's buisness depends on the quality of his product would be the same as a shaft made in a sweat factory by someone who is making a dollar a day.

I don't think so.

I'll stick with domestic products where ever I have the choice.

Craig Fales
07-10-2006, 08:21 AM
Historically? In whose history? China has a rich history of innovation and has produced some of the most intricate art as well as some of the most technologically advanced things. China was the first nation to navigate and map the globe. There is compelling evidence that they colonised the Americas long before the Europeans.

I would put up all of our cues in the $100 and up range against any so-called "American" made cues in a blind test. Let's send them to a lab and have them tested with a wide range of criteria and see how they stack up. I think you will find that point-for-point the imported cues will hold their own. 15 years ago the differences were apparent to any layman. Now, I could put any name I want to on cues coming in and only the most experienced cuemaker/collector could tell the difference.

I saw Southwest style cues in Taiwan that "HIT" exactly like SouthWest cues. NO DIFFERENCE in hit, look, balance, feel and apparently workmanship. The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. The point being that good input equals good output. Given the technology, the knowledge and the right materials there is no reason why a JossWest cannot be produced in China.

John

Until you grab another one and it hits like a twig and the stick on decals start to peel off...then you'll be like WTF...
________

Purdman
07-10-2006, 08:29 AM
The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. Are you kidding, try $18 to $20 there buddy. You ain't fooling nobody whith that BS!
Purdman

Craig Fales
07-10-2006, 08:37 AM
The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. Are you kidding, try $18 to $20 there buddy. You ain't fooling nobody whith that BS!
Purdman

I think he meant 3 dollars....LOLz
________

Purdman
07-10-2006, 08:53 AM
I think he meant 3 dollars....LOLz

Naw, he is just selling them and wants you to think he paid 3 to 500 for em so he can get 6 to 1000 for em. That's the American dream Craig. The poorest possible quality at the highest possible price with the least amount of service. Plain and simple! How many people do you think are gonna send their defective cue back to China for repairs?
Rots 'a' Ruck
Purdman:rolleyes:

Icon of Sin
07-10-2006, 08:55 AM
We make our choices.
Am not a racist or a bigot.
I collect knives. I do not buy knives made in China.
Same, I am a knife collector too and I know exactly where you are coming from.

Icon of Sin
07-10-2006, 08:57 AM
Given the technology, the knowledge and the right materials there is no reason why a JossWest cannot be produced in China.

John
I can think of one reason, they would have to change the name to JossFarEast :p :D ;)

deadstroke32
07-10-2006, 08:59 AM
Yes...shafts too now.
U bad boy u let the story out ..i knew that was going to happen ..Last year mas produce.O well i hate them anyway..

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 09:59 AM
Naw, he is just selling them and wants you to think he paid 3 to 500 for em so he can get 6 to 1000 for em. That's the American dream Craig. The poorest possible quality at the highest possible price with the least amount of service. Plain and simple! How many people do you think are gonna send their defective cue back to China for repairs?
Rots 'a' Ruck
Purdman:rolleyes:


You are both full of crap. When I say I saw and played with cues that can hold up to SouthWest then that's what I saw. Did I say I was selling them! Get a life.

I said they are selling for 3-500 HUNDRED each wholesale IN TAIWAN. That's a LOT for a cue that is 100% constructed in China/Taiwan. The point is that the capability is there to make cues that are every bit as good as anything made in the USA. Whether or not the United States consumer or the importer is willing to PAY for that level of quality is another story.

The stigma and stereotype is that Asia cannot produce a cue that is equal to or better than most American cuemakers. The truth is that they can and do produce such cues but they do not sell them in the USA because of the stigma.

I know you're trying to be funny Don but this is a serious subject with a LOT of misinformation along the way and lots of unscrupulous sellers. It doesn't help to fuel more ignorance with inaccurate and unfounded rumors.

John

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 10:01 AM
I can think of one reason, they would have to change the name to JossFarEast :p :D ;)


LOL that's funny!

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 10:07 AM
The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. Are you kidding, try $18 to $20 there buddy. You ain't fooling nobody whith that BS!
Purdman

Do you even bother to read the rest of the paragraph? No because you are ****ING BLINDED.

Why don't you tell us all how many times you have been to Asia and how many cue factories you have been in? Why don't you provide us with the pictures and video of the cue production? Please tell us how involved you have been in the sourcing of raw materials and machinery for cue production.

While you are at it, please tell us how many poolrooms you visited in Asia and how many players you know and have played. Also, we would like to know how many room owners you spent time with.

Until you can tell us that - stay out the conversation with your ignorance. Oh, and learn to read and not take part of the statement out of context. That would help.

John

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 10:19 AM
Until you grab another one and it hits like a twig and the stick on decals start to peel off...then you'll be like WTF...

You are only thinking of the SouthWest copies that are sold HERE in the USA. Those are no match for SouthWest and the price reflects the cost.

I am specifically talking about cues that are made in China that are sold in Taiwan to Taiwanese players and have the same feel and hit of SouthWest cues. These are proof that if someone is willing to work with a manufacturer to produce exactly what they want and is willinig to PAY for it then they are very likely going to GET exactly what they want.

A US company would be nuts to try and sell Chinese made cues that look like SouthWests for $1000 to $1500 or even for $600 to $900. There is NO MARKET for that cue here. However, in Taiwan among the better players there is certainly a market for cues that play like SouthWest cues and cost a fraction.

Most of you haven't been off the block. I have been fortunate enough to see the world and specifically to see cue production in places that look as though they haven't changed in four centuries to places where you could eat off the floor. I have seen cues that look like expensive cues and play like crap and expensive cues that look like crap and play like crap.

The technology is there to build you whatever level of cue you want to pay for. The quality you will get will be directly related to your ability to ask for the right things.

John

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 10:26 AM
Do you mean to tell me you believe that the quality of a shaft made by a craftsman who's buisness depends on the quality of his product would be the same as a shaft made in a sweat factory by someone who is making a dollar a day.

I don't think so.

I'll stick with domestic products where ever I have the choice.

Where do I start?

Um, yes the quality of a shaft produced in a factory can be as good or better than one made by an idividual cuemaker.

The wages are irrelevant. The factory delivers product that must meet the specs of the customer. If they don't then they don't get the orders. You use products every day that are produced in this manner without a second thought about the craftsmanship.

What about the non-union laborer here who is making your shaft for $8 an hour in a land where milk is $3 a gallon? Is this better than the person who makes $1 a day in a land where milk is 10cts a gallon? It's economics 101. Wherever the cost of living is lower so are the wages.

John

rhncue
07-10-2006, 10:32 AM
You are both full of crap. When I say I saw and played with cues that can hold up to SouthWest then that's what I saw. Did I say I was selling them! Get a life.

I said they are selling for 3-500 HUNDRED each wholesale IN TAIWAN. That's a LOT for a cue that is 100% constructed in China/Taiwan. The point is that the capability is there to make cues that are every bit as good as anything made in the USA. Whether or not the United States consumer or the importer is willing to PAY for that level of quality is another story.

The stigma and stereotype is that Asia cannot produce a cue that is equal to or better than most American cuemakers. The truth is that they can and do produce such cues but they do not sell them in the USA because of the stigma.

I know you're trying to be funny Don but this is a serious subject with a LOT of misinformation along the way and lots of unscrupulous sellers. It doesn't help to fuel more ignorance with inaccurate and unfounded rumors.

John

Your statement about seeing cues made in the far east built as good and or better than S/W cues is mighty hard to believe. How many of them have you been using for the last 10 to 15 years to have the knowledge of this being a fact and not just an opinion? I've worked on many thousands of cues and as far as I'm concerned, none are built as good as a S/W cue. I can put a butt to a 10 year old S/W cue in my lathe, screw on the shaft and start the lathe with no fear of the shaft occilating at all. It will run just as true as the day it was made. I would not do that with any other cue made in the world.

Dick

Purdman
07-10-2006, 10:38 AM
Do you even bother to read the rest of the paragraph? No because you are ****ING BLINDED.

Why don't you tell us all how many times you have been to Asia and how many cue factories you have been in? Why don't you provide us with the pictures and video of the cue production? Please tell us how involved you have been in the sourcing of raw materials and machinery for cue production.

While you are at it, please tell us how many poolrooms you visited in Asia and how many players you know and have played. Also, we would like to know how many room owners you spent time with.

Until you can tell us that - stay out the conversation with your ignorance. Oh, and learn to read and not take part of the statement out of context. That would help.

John

Hey John, when the name calling begins, the communication has been lost. Don't get your pantys in a wad because I expressed your business policy. I know a hell of a lot more than you think I do. You also seem to use the word "WE" a lot in your responce. Who is WE John?:rolleyes:
I do not buy chep inferior products, so we won't be doing much business together buddy. I wish you all the success that you deserve.;)
Purdman:D

rackem
07-10-2006, 10:42 AM
It's like this people there are many million people that play pool. Many of those people want to own their own cue. However many people will only alot about $100 for such a purchase. We need a million or so people to make those pool cues. We do not have enough people in the USA willing to do that. Thus China made cues are a necessity. I just don't see much use in the American market for a $500 Chineese mass produced not custom pool cue.

supergreenman
07-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Where do I start?

Um, yes the quality of a shaft produced in a factory can be as good or better than one made by an idividual cuemaker.

The wages are irrelevant. The factory delivers product that must meet the specs of the customer. If they don't then they don't get the orders. You use products every day that are produced in this manner without a second thought about the craftsmanship.

What about the non-union laborer here who is making your shaft for $8 an hour in a land where milk is $3 a gallon? Is this better than the person who makes $1 a day in a land where milk is 10cts a gallon? It's economics 101. Wherever the cost of living is lower so are the wages.

John
I guess you missed the whole exploiting cheap labor at the expense of domestic labor thing. If everything is manufactured overseas people in north america won't have the money to buy all these products. Economics 202. :p

CrownCityCorey
07-10-2006, 11:41 AM
Are there any other sites out there besides platinum billiards that compare the performance of all these high performance shafts?

Also, since there is no hollow cavity in the tiger shaft to reduce deflection, how is it's performance any different than a solid maple shaft, and how can it be compared to the predator in performance?
The Tiger "X" Laminated Shaft achieves lesser cue ball deflection that a standard maple cue shaft with the tip / ferrule combo reducing weight induced tip-end deflection.

We don't use robots to test these types of things. We have strictly gone by R & D with some of the top players in the game (Shawn Putnam., Troy Frank., George “Ginky” SanSouci, Stefano Pelinga, and myself to name a few. Want more, go here to see who uses our product http://www.tigerproducts.com/proplayers.htm#ProPlayers ).

Speaking of Platinum Billiards Test results, in the past we have requested that remove their testing of our product as the following truths are evident:

There is no validity to this testing.

We never provided any product to them for testing

We have no idea what kind of set up was involved with said testing.

There has never been any evidence provided to us of that this testing even took place.

In the last 3 years, the "X" Laminated Shafts has undergone a great deal of development in manufacturing technique, materials, taper and finish. The supposed results shown by Platinum’s tests are several years old.

This whole testing affair is quite subjective considering that Platinum Billiards is not an independent testing facility; they are one of the largest Predator Dealers out there (the owner was a long time employee of Predator).

Platinum has refused to remove these supposed testing results.

We at Tiger Products welcome an open testing competition of Laminated Cue Shaft and the completed cues that are from the same manufacturer by an independent testing firm. Let's really see!

I have personally contacted all three of the major billiards magazines about this issue and none will touch the issue as they are concerned about alienating one or all of their cue/shaft advertisers.

Ideally, the customer(s) should decide what they want from a high-performance cue/shaft combo, and an independent make an objective comparison.

All of our competition makes a fine product, but you should be the judge of what works best for you!

We gladly challenge the following:

Predator
Universal Smart Shaft / Lucasi
McDermott ICE Shafts / Cues
Meucci Black, Red or whatever color dot they have
OB-1 shafts / Cues

And whoever else wants in. Let’s limit it to 7 (just a nice number).

We are happy to share the costs involved with each of the participants.

The gauntlet has been thrown!

CrownCityCorey
07-10-2006, 12:13 PM
Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Both my Wife and I have had forced job changes in the last 4 years due to international outsourcing!

shinobi
07-10-2006, 12:45 PM
CrownCityCorey,

I can certainly understand your valid points about Platinum Billiards tests. Having said that, my own testing of many shafts shows that quite clearly the X shaft does deflect more than the Z, 314, OB-1. It's not even close. The fact that some professionals use it says nothing about how much it squirts the cue ball.

Surely you aren't saying that you think the X shaft creates less cue ball squirt than those others?

JoeyInCali
07-10-2006, 12:53 PM
CrownCityCorey,

I can certainly understand your valid points about Platinum Billiards tests. Having said that, my own testing of many shafts shows that quite clearly the X shaft does deflect more than the Z, 314, OB-1. It's not even close. The fact that some professionals use it says nothing about how much it squirts the cue ball.

Surely you aren't saying that you think the X shaft creates less cue ball squirt than those others?
http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
That's the test data page.
Meucci Red Dot and Cuetec have less cb squirt than Tiger X? :eek:

shanesinnott
07-10-2006, 01:03 PM
Corey,

Interesting post!

You made some statements that I would like to address:

"The Tiger "X" Laminated Shaft achieves lesser cue ball deflection that a standard maple cue shaft with the tip / ferrule combo reducing weight induced tip-end deflection."
I am not sure if I understand this claim and I am also curious as to how you know this as fact

"We don't use robots to test these types of things."
I think this is a mistake, I believe Tiger Products could learn a lot from a Robot/stroke machine

We have strictly gone by R & D with some of the top players in the game (Shawn Putnam., Troy Frank., George “Ginky” SanSouci, Stefano Pelinga, and myself to name a few. Want more, go here to see who uses our product http://www.tigerproducts.com/proplayers.htm#ProPlayers ).
I would have thought that 'strictly going by R&D' would involve something less subjective than opinions from players

Speaking of Platinum Billiards Test results, in the past we have requested that remove their testing of our product
Yes you have and we will not

There is no validity to this testing.
What kind of validity would you expect or like?

We never provided any product to them for testing
This is true and neither did any of the other manufacturers. I personally bought the products from distributors so that we could do our testing. When I first started Platinum I had no product to test and decided it would be quicker and fairer to just buy the product than to spend time trying to convince each and every manufacturer that we wanted them to send us cues and shafts for free so we could test them and publish the results for all the world to see

We have no idea what kind of set up was involved with said testing.
This is true and if you had asked I would have and can explain our 'set up' One thing we are not going to do is teach other companies how to do what we do as the test results are a big part of who we are and how we have grown so quickly. I feel it would be foolish to publish pictures and video and diagrams on 'How to setup your own pool cue testing facility'

There has never been any evidence provided to us of that this testing even took place.
Are you questioning my integrity Corey? This statement doesn't even deserve a response and frankly surprises me

In the last 3 years, the "X" Laminated Shafts has undergone a great deal of development in manufacturing technique, materials, taper and finish. The supposed results shown by Platinum’s tests are several years old.
We tested the X shaft. Yes, the test was done over 2 years ago as was the test on many other products. As manufacturers have released new and improved versions of products we have tested those and updated the results. If the X shaft has undergone improvements to its performance, send us 4 and we will test them and gladly publish the results and return the product to you after it has been tested

This whole testing affair is quite subjective considering that Platinum Billiards is not an independent testing facility; they are one of the largest Predator Dealers out there (the owner once worked for Predator).
You are correct that Platinum Billiards Inc. Is among other things, one of the largest Predator Dealers in the world. We also own pool player websites that we created for players free of charge, we have a website www.platinumbilliards.com that sells over 1600 products (your companies included) We do live tournament coverage, we sponsor pool players and pool tours and we also have a testing facility in Daytona, Florida that we have pool cues tested at. I would agree that if we were a manufacturer, our testing could not be considered independent, but we are not a manufacturer and we do have an independent testing facility that we use to test cues.

Platinum has refused to remove these supposed testing results.
Yes we have. Pool players want to know how products perform and they want to hear how a Tiger shaft performs from someone other than Tiger and 'Tiger Players' We apparently are the only non-manufacturer of pool cues that I know of that has gone to significant expense to set up a testing facility to test pool cues and to publish these results. We are not going to remove test results because a manufacturer is unhappy, we would hope that the manufacturer will improve their product and send us the new and improved version for testing

We at Tiger Products welcome an open testing competition of Laminated Cue Shaft and the completed cues that are from the same manufacturer by an independent testing firm. Let's really see!
What is an independent testing firm?

I have personally contacted all three of the major billiards magazines about this issue and none will touch the issue as they are concerned about alienating one or all of their cue/shaft advertisers.
I am not surprised

Ideally, the customer(s) should decide what they want from a high-performance cue/shaft combo, and an independent make an objective comparison.
They do and we are

All of our competition makes a fine product, but you should be the judge of what works best for you!

We gladly challenge the following:

Predator
Universal Smart Shaft / Lucasi
McDermott ICE Shafts / Cues
Meucci Black, Red or whatever color dot they have
OB-1 shafts / Cues

And whoever else wants in. Let’s limit it to 7 (just a nice number).

We are happy to share the costs involved with each of the participants.

The gauntlet has been thrown
I think this is a great Idea and wish you the best of luck with it


We will continue to sell Tiger Products as I believe you make a good product. But I can't say the same for this last post, I guess we all have bad days!

In closing, as I said before, send us product for Testing if you would like to have the test results updated with the new and improved Tiger X Shaft and Tiger Cues.

You mentioned that "In the last 3 years, the "X" Laminated Shafts has undergone a great deal of development in manufacturing technique, materials, taper and finish." Does this mean that all of this has changed in some way in the last 3 years? If that is the case, you may want to let your customers and the pool playing public know that they can now buy the new and improved X shaft as their old one may not be as good. We now know this which is why we are anxious to test the 'new' X shaft.

CrownCityCorey
07-10-2006, 01:11 PM
CrownCityCorey,
Surely you aren't saying that you think the X shaft creates less cue ball squirt than those others?

No one said this.

DoomCue
07-10-2006, 01:20 PM
This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!).

Fact: over 1.5 million jobs were lost in 2004 due to mass layoffs (more than 50 people at a time) - recent stats are hard to find
Fact: less than ONE PERCENT of those jobs lost were due to foreign relocation (aka "outsourcing")

There are very few things in this country that are wholly American - that's why the slogan is "Buy American-Made." There's a big difference between "buying American" (virtually impossible) and "buying American-made."

It's funny to me that a country founded by immigrants for immigrants is so biased against foreigners. This country wouldn't be where it is without foreigners or foreign products.

"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides when a colourful flag is unfurled"

-djb <-- thinks ignorance is NOT bliss

Fuji-whopper
07-10-2006, 01:28 PM
That's really good/interesting information, thank you DoomCue.

CrownCityCorey
07-10-2006, 01:33 PM
What is an independent testing firm?



This would be an organization or person that has no financial or otherwise interest in the final results of said test.

Also, such a thing should be done on multiple criteria. I have played with many a cue & shaft combo. There is nothing wrong persay with any of them.

Like I said, all of our competitors make a fine product and most also meet their claims, however not all that they claim is a benefit.

Craig Fales
07-10-2006, 01:47 PM
Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.

Except that's not what usually happens....


We shouldn't be so blind to believe that just because a product comes from an overseas market and not "made in America", that it will be inferior. I've ready in particular about the exacting standards, and superb work ethic of the Japanese workforce. This is why all of their companies, products, etc have been such a success in America. Superb quality for superb prices.


That wasn't always the case with Japan...and with China perhaps in 20 ~ 25 years they will consistently put out a quality product...it doesn't seem to matter what company moves production to China the quality goes down....coincidence? I don't think so....
________

cigardave
07-10-2006, 01:50 PM
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with China's manufacturing capabilities. You might be surprised to find out that the tail of the airplane that you're flying from LA to NYC was manufactured in China.

I have no doubt that the Chinese are just as capable as Americans at gluing together ten pieces of wood. :rolleyes:

X Breaker
07-10-2006, 02:36 PM
Corey,

I remember talking to Tony years ago in the BCA expo in Vegas when the X shaft was just out, and he told me he did not want his X shaft to be like the 314. I think it makes a lot of sense.

In my opinion, there are a lot more to a good shaft than deflection alone.

Are these tests done independently at Platinum? With all due respect, since nothing has been disclosed, how can we know? Also, it depends on their definition of "independent."

I do know from talking to a Predator employee (Neil F) in Valley that Predator had access to such testing robot at Platinum as he knew exactly how the test was conducted.

Are these tests biased? Well, if I have access to a testing facility and I know the person doing the test while my competitors do not, will I have an advantage over others in designing a product to perform really well in these tests?

Also, just because such tests were passed based on criteria set out by one company, which marketing claim was to build shafts and cues to satisfy these criteria to begin with, does that mean the cues build by this company is really the "best" in terms of "performance" when they are used in a real game by real players?

If certain company can have access to this facility and others don't, is this test really aimed at offering a 100% fair result. Especially when this said company happens to be the manufacturer of which the tester is the biggest dealer of, and also was his ex employee, with all due respect, I can really see why Corey is concerned about the validity and motive of the test.

Shane, I am sorry if this offends you. I am just stating a logical deduction I draw from the facts I have gathered. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not questioning your integrity here.

Besides, human and robots are just too different. For example, we hold our cues with human flesh, some hold it loose, some hold it tight. We will have problem swinging a 50oz cue. There are all kinds of aiming systems and methods to apply english such as twisting ones wrist, swinging ones forearm, dropping one's elbow...

I happen to think that feedback is much more important than a percentage of deflection when I try out a shaft. I need to try the shaft myself. That data does not really tell me anything.

Corey, I am glad you are seeking professional opinion in researching your product. I know a lot of players chose to play with your shaft even though they could get a 314 or other shafts for free.

One very important thing about a shaft is the taper. I do not know why anyone would believe one taper will fit all players and offers the best performance. A taper of a shaft has everything to do with "performance."

To advertise a single taper would offer the best "performance" is like saying one type of girl with a certain figure is the best for all men.

Isn't using the "deflection" percentage to "educate" the public on what the best shaft is is almost like using the breast size of a women to define if she is perfect to be your wife or not. So, is a bigger number better for everyone?

I have always asked myself this question: if a shaft does not react the same way everytime, what is so meaningful about a low deflection number?

If a shaft cannot produce a consistent result, how do you expect to control your cue ball with this shaft?

Isn't it more important to test the consistency of cue ball positioning and feel of the shot with a shaft? After all, cue ball control is everything in wining a game. I am talking about the consistency in "deflection." If 314 is really that consistency, why do they hit differently from one shaft to another. What is the meaning of this test showing this "deflection" number, which varies from one shaft to another?

What is their sample size in these tests?

Shane said he wanted 4 shafts, so are 4 shafts all they have tested to come up with their data?

To use a sample size of 4 seems a bit too low and inaccurate to me. So, 4 shaft is like may be 0.0001 % or less of the shafts Predator builds in a year?

I have to say if only a sample size of about 0.0001% was used to come up with these data, then the result really serves no purpose nor meaning in providing customers with any accurate representation.

Shane also said he would buy the shafts or cues himself, so do they buy only 1, or 4, or how many do they buy? These are very important information that are left out in their test reports.

Anyone with any scientific background would tell you in order to obtain a set of meaningful data, they need to have a much bigger sample size. If you think about how many shafts are produced in China for Predator now, you have to agree that the sample has to be at least in the hundreds in order for the tests to have any meaning.

If providing a fair and meaningful test result is all why Platinum is doing their tests, then I would have to say they should also update their result and provide data to the customers as to when their testing samples were obtained. Without such, the test results are misleading to say the least.

To list testing result of a product that is no longer available on the market along with other products that are avaliable, without disclosing such, is also misleading.

A customer who reads the data of the X shaft will not know that this data were obtained 2 years or so ago, from an unknown source, in an unknown condition(it could have been warpped and really beat up for agrument's sake).

Most importantly, this shaft is not the same as what is offered by Tiger today and is no longer being sold on the market place; therefore, it is misleading to the customers and is an inaccurate representation of the product.

I also remember reading on the Platinum site that they will only list products that are currently being sold to the public, I am not sure why was an old X shaft listed?

Once again, Shane, I am expressing my opinion on the test, and it is not personal. I apologize if any of what I said offends you. They were not meant to be. I am expressing my opinion about the tests and the X shaft issue, not you personally.

Having said that, I would appreciate an answer to my concerns. You have asked us to send you our cues a few times. If I am satisfied that your test is done accurately and is truly unbiased, I may consider doing it in the future.

Shane, you asked what is an unbiased source, I would think a company which specializes in consumer reports, without any direct involvement in the billiard industry, to be unbiased. It all depends on the motive in my opinion.

You see companies like that with eletronic products. They are running tests to help consumers to have an understanding of new products and the pros and cons of products. The tests were not done to generate web traffic in order to try sell more cues.

Corey, I wish you would continue to offer some shafts with outstanding quality to players who are looking for a great hitting shafts. A lot of knowledgable players are very sensitive to the way a shaft plays, and they are not looking for the shaft with the least squirt.

A lot of players are looking for a shaft with a consistent feedback and hit, in order to control their cue ball consistently.

I am sure there is a market out there, especially with the more advanced players.

Best wishes,

Richard

Nostroke
07-10-2006, 02:51 PM
We never provided any product to them for testing
This is true and neither did any of the other manufacturers. I personally bought the products from distributors so that we could do our testing. When I first started Platinum I had no product to test and decided it would be quicker and fairer to just buy the product than to spend time trying to convince each and every manufacturer that we wanted them to send us cues and shafts for free so we could test them and publish the results for all the world to see

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Any products tested should always be procured on the open market. To do otherwise is just begging for a ringer product.

Nostroke
07-10-2006, 02:53 PM
This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!)

http://66.165.133.65/history/american/hanson.htm

Irish634
07-10-2006, 03:04 PM
This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!).

Fact: over 1.5 million jobs were lost in 2004 due to mass layoffs (more than 50 people at a time) - recent stats are hard to find
Fact: less than ONE PERCENT of those jobs lost were due to foreign relocation (aka "outsourcing")

There are very few things in this country that are wholly American - that's why the slogan is "Buy American-Made." There's a big difference between "buying American" (virtually impossible) and "buying American-made."

It's funny to me that a country founded by immigrants for immigrants is so biased against foreigners. This country wouldn't be where it is without foreigners or foreign products.



-djb <-- thinks ignorance is NOT bliss



Well I am not saying you are wrong, but I am simply stating my opinion, because my company cut 35% of it's WORLD WIDE work force to move to the competitive markets in China and Malaysia. Roughly 10,000 or so jobs were lost in the US because the billion dollar company wanted to increase its profit margin and give the CEO 14 million in performance bonuses when the stock had lost 70%.... (I have the article of his salary if you'd like to see it). Many Americans, Mexicans, and other immigrants DID lose their jobs to overseas competition, at least from our company. I do believe that these people that lost their jobs were offered re-training and college as part of the unemployment package (I think that is a law). Did they accept? I don't know. As far as foreign capabilities... I speak from first hand in the printed circuit board industry, that the Asian market DOES NOT and CAN NOT build the level of technology in circuit boards that we do. Are they far behind? Absolutely not. But the technology orders keeps coming back.

Yes this country was founded on immigration, my great grandparents to be specific were immigrants. But when they came here there were not the laws we have today. Maybe we should use the term "undocumented" instead of "illegal" --- But that is a topic for another thread and not to be confused with this topic.

Another part of this thread discusses the "testing" of shafts and cues. I do not work for Platinum Billiards, don't know anyone there, and have never purchased anything from them. But, as a "data driven" electrical engineer, if someone can show me the data, I am more apt to rely on statistics. However, one has to have enough data to make the testing worthwhile and also. Personal opinion can be a very powerful tool, but one has to weigh how much of it is actually unbiased. Not to plug the cue or shaft I use, but what I use feels good to ME and unless I actually compare for myself I am probably not going to change. So am I biased? Sure. But what I play with, may not suit the next 100 people that walk in the door. Richard... I agree with your post. When it comes to cues there has to be the individual's personal feel to account for.

I would also consider Platinum Billiards to be "independent" as they are not a cue maker. Are there are higher profits for one cue over another? I am sure there are, but I don't know of one company (public or private) that would disclose that information.



My apologies if I have offended anyone. It was not my intention. Just my 2 and a half cents.

CrownCityCorey
07-10-2006, 03:12 PM
Any products tested should always be procured on the open market. To do otherwise is just begging for a ringer product.

I wonder if "Car & Driver", "Road & Track" or "Consumer Reports" purchases the vehicles they have for comparisons?

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 03:22 PM
Your statement about seeing cues made in the far east built as good and or better than S/W cues is mighty hard to believe. How many of them have you been using for the last 10 to 15 years to have the knowledge of this being a fact and not just an opinion? I've worked on many thousands of cues and as far as I'm concerned, none are built as good as a S/W cue. I can put a butt to a 10 year old S/W cue in my lathe, screw on the shaft and start the lathe with no fear of the shaft occilating at all. It will run just as true as the day it was made. I would not do that with any other cue made in the world.

Dick

Dick, you know me and you know how much experience I have with cues. Now, I can't sit here and tell you with absolute certainty that the cues I am talking about will hold up as well as a SouthWest or be as true as a SouthWest in five or ten years. I am telling you that the cues hit like a SouthWest, felt like a Southwest, had no obvious quality issues and were technically perfect in fit and finish.

I have in my warehouse right now a batch of Lishan cues with spliced infinite points. These cues are approximately 10+ years old. Most of them are warped. Some of them however, are dead straight, and I mean DEAD NUTS STRAIGHT. Now, if a factory can produce cues that remain straight by accident they they can darn sure do it on purpose.

John

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 03:31 PM
Hey John, when the name calling begins, the communication has been lost. Don't get your pantys in a wad because I expressed your business policy. I know a hell of a lot more than you think I do. You also seem to use the word "WE" a lot in your responce. Who is WE John?:rolleyes:
I do not buy chep inferior products, so we won't be doing much business together buddy. I wish you all the success that you deserve.;)
Purdman:D

I used "we" once and it means I speak for all of those who actually have experience in the field we are discussing here. We would like to know what YOUR level of expertise is in order to make the statements you make. Yeah, you're right, when the name calling starts, as in when you called me a liar, or just what did you mean by calling my statements bullshit?

You know nothing about my business policy. If you did then you would know that I have consistently provided those in the billiard industry with good products at fair prices. You are the one who has the agenda here not me. You want to promote yourself as some sort of expert although you have nearly zero credentials.

I am in this discussion because I know more than you do about it. Your ignorant statements and name calling do nothing to add to the discussion. All you are doing is increasing my ire. Which is something you do know a little about. I'll tell you what, start a discussion on the heating and air business and I will make some ignorant uninformed and uneducated personal slurs about you and your business. Then we'll see how well you respond.

John

Nostroke
07-10-2006, 03:38 PM
I wonder if "Car & Driver", "Road & Track" or "Consumer Reports" purchases the vehicles they have for comparisons?

Well if they dont, they have a method of selecting a random product. I mean if they just call up and say deliver a Hyundai X10 to Consumer Reports for testing, do you think they wind up with a typical product that you and i might buy or one that has been given some extra care, triple checked, screws tightened etc?

Edit-From the Consumer Reports web site:



How we test

Test

Our National Testing and Research Center, in Yonkers, N.Y., is the largest nonprofit educational and consumer product testing center in the world. Research and testing are pivotal components of the work of Consumer Reports.

Before a product even enters one of the dozens of labs at our Yonkers headquarters, it has been subjected to considerable research. We gather data about products and services, about consumer demand in the marketplace, and about what our subscribers plan to purchase. Editorial, technical, and research staff then scrutinize that material, along with suggestions from our subscribers, to develop our testing schedule.

After additional research to define a project's scope, staff shoppers--assisted by a network of shoppers in 65 U.S. cities--buy the products we use as test samples.

To supplement laboratory testing, the survey research department gathers the experiences that hundreds of thousands of our subscribers have had with products and services through an annual questionnaire. Those results are the basis of our well-known auto Frequency-of-Repair index and other product'
End Quote

Car and Driver on the other hand may not do true testing-they may just do information gathering/feature appraisal type of thing wherein they would borrow a vehicle.

onepocketchump
07-10-2006, 03:51 PM
I guess you missed the whole exploiting cheap labor at the expense of domestic labor thing. If everything is manufactured overseas people in north america won't have the money to buy all these products. Economics 202. :p

Um, I guess you didn't finish econ 202. First, in a country the size of the USA there will always be large manufacturing base. We cannot import everything it is not physically possible or fiscally feasible. Secondly, tariffs, transport costs, mergers, language barriers and a host of other criteria drive foreign compamies to set up production in America. Thirdly, when America moves away from the production of cheap consumables it focuses more on hard-to-produce items requiring substantial research, development and oversight. And lastly, we aren't discussing the exploitation of cheap labor - that's what you do when you have anyone do a black market job for far less than the going rate and don't pay any taxes on it.

We are discussing production in places where the cost of living is far less and so consequently the average wages are also far less. Sure people are exploited in sweatshops. The majority of factories in China and Taiwan are not sweatshops however and the workers are treated with dignity and respect and receive fair wages for thier economy.

In places like Saipan however the workers are rountinely abused. If you want to make an issue of exploitation then do your research and become an activist. Don't just assume that every worker in the world is underpaid and exploited. For that matter you can look at the sweatshops in NYC and LA to find the jobs you so desire.

John