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recoveryjones
07-09-2006, 03:30 AM
So far I've heard that Predator and Falcon now make their cues in China.I've also heard that Dufferin cues were bought out and now made in China.

Does anyone know of any other cues now made in China.Is the quality suffering?How much do these factories pay their labourers?

My first cue was a Dufferin Sneaky Pete and I also previously owned a Falcon with a Predator shaft.Not bad beginners cues,however, I'd really be reluctant to recommend them to anyone now.
RJ

Craig Fales
07-09-2006, 05:26 AM
I heard that Sledgehammer break cues are being made there now...
________
SunnyEveline (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/SunnyEveline)

catscradle
07-09-2006, 05:40 AM
I heard that Sledgehammer break cues are being made there now...

I heard they were, but when McDermott hooked up with them they were moved back to the USA.

tedkaufman
07-09-2006, 06:08 AM
I believe Lucasi cues are made in China. If they are, that's fine with me. I have a SP Lucasi for bar play and think it's an incredible value. Other Lucasi cues I tried were remarkably good for the money, too.

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 07:06 AM
I heard the Chinese have secretly outsourced their production to Mars. The little martian beings are being paid in fish eyeballs. But it's okay cuz they don't have Hummers on Mars to sap everyone's resources, be a 4000lb substitute for a penis or be the object of envy for a million wannabes.

Chinese laborers make the average wage needed to live in whatever part of China they live in. It's an Ecosystem. The price of milk reflects the average wages and like every other place on Earth with any commerce the average cost of living is low compared to the average cost of being wastefully extravagant.

John

PoolSleuth
07-09-2006, 08:08 AM
So far I've heard that Predator and Falcon now make their cues in China.I've also heard that Dufferin cues were bought out and now made in China.


RJ

TRUE......:mad:

Purdman
07-09-2006, 09:06 AM
I heard they were, but when McDermott hooked up with them they were moved back to the USA.

The Economy Sledges have always been made in China! They still are only McDermott is buying and selling them now. The RS and MG Customs came out of Mikes shop. That is how I understand it guys. This info came from respected, and not so respected, names in the cuemaking world.;)
Purdman

PoolSleuth
07-09-2006, 09:12 AM
Too BAD all the Products that are Made in China do not refelect the price of Chineese Labor.

Scott Lee
07-09-2006, 09:25 AM
Several large 'American' production cue companies, and the largest wholesalers, including Cuestix, Cue & Case, and Sterling Gaming, all manufacture their product lines in China. That's no secret. Quality does not necessarily suffer...although there will always be some substandard manufacturing, regardless of where something is made. Lucasi and Fury are both well made, inexpensive, lines, even though they come from China. Can you find crappy cues made in China? Sure...just like you can find crappy cues made here too. However, truth be told, probably 80%+ of the cues made anywhere, for any company (American or not), come out of China...they just have a bunch of different names on them (many of which are very recognizable).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

duke@neo.rr.com
07-09-2006, 10:36 AM
Too BAD all the Products that are Made in China do not refelect the price of Chineese Labor.

tap,tap,tap Poolsleuth! well said. it seems like more and more, alot of cues custom and production are being made in this God-awful quality country, but you never see price go down...do ya? they all want to make as much as they can on everything, and that's fine...good for them if they can do it, but when quality slips so does their name. I used to recommend alot of cues to people wanting to know what to buy, but anymore I just keep shut. chinise quality sucks, and when these companies / cuemakers find out the hard way by getting alot of things back for repair, I really hope it hurts their reputations for making fine cues. eventually, people will learn when to do things their way in their own shops and charge accordingly. why some people would chance damaging their reputations is beyond me, but it's done more times than not.

PoolSleuth
07-09-2006, 11:07 AM
tap,tap,tap Poolsleuth! well said. it seems like more and more, alot of cues custom and production are being made in this God-awful quality country, but you never see price go down...do ya? .

It not just Cues, Cases, and Billiards ACCESSORIES. Or China. how about them high priced Designer Cloths made in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and other THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES...Like Bangladesh, and other I can not name. :mad:

Was recently to Disneyland AnaSLEIM, and the Mouse has sold out to have their stuff manufactured off shore also.:(

$100.00++ Ralph Lauren stuff made in where:confused:, call American Express, or Chase Bank customer service, and you call goes to India?:confused: :confused:

Thank you Jack Welch the formor C.E.O. of G.E. for start this out sourcing thing.:mad:

Remember when Sheets, towel, rus, etc were made in the South, now they are made in South of India, Mexico, and American are with out of jobs in companies like Burlington Industries....:rolleyes:

Falconcuesltd
07-12-2006, 02:41 PM
Hello guys, this is Peter from Falcon Cues Ltd. I would just like to clear up some of the doubts and questions a lot of you might be having at the moment.
Falcon Cues is on the move to Taiwan, that is correct. We made this decision due to business related reasons I'm sure most of you would understand. Of course we are aware of quality issues and it will be one of our main focuses once the factory is set up. We will ensure the quality of Falcon Cues made in the new factory equal to or even better than those made in Canada. This will be our committment to our customers.
Also, to ensure good customer service, we are also setting up a warehousing facility in Mississauga, Ontario at the moment. This is to ensure that our customers still gets the same product support and services they are entitled to as a Falcon customer.

I hope this will help clear some of the issues or doubts that you may have, and if you have anymore questions, you can email me at peter@falconcues.com anytime.

Cheers

pete lafond
07-12-2006, 02:49 PM
Several large 'American' production cue companies, and the largest wholesalers, including Cuestix, Cue & Case, and Sterling Gaming, all manufacture their product lines in China. That's no secret. Quality does not necessarily suffer...although there will always be some substandard manufacturing, regardless of where something is made. Lucasi and Fury are both well made, inexpensive, lines, even though they come from China. Can you find crappy cues made in China? Sure...just like you can find crappy cues made here too. However, truth be told, probably 80%+ of the cues made anywhere, for any company (American or not), come out of China...they just have a bunch of different names on them (many of which are very recognizable).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Nice post. Years ago we use to complain about cars made in Japan as crap. Back then Japan's labor rates were very low. The fact was is their cars were very good and even later became a standard for excellence.

Just because labor is cheap does not imply compassion for excellence is not present.

TheOne
07-12-2006, 02:56 PM
I assume its a slow boat? :D

manwon
07-12-2006, 02:59 PM
I recently re-wraped a Preditor 4K7. After removing the wrap, I found Chinese writing on the under wrap.

I read and write Korean, however, can not translate Chinese, however, I am familar with the text style and I am certain that it was Chinese.

Wow, I suspect that now that these cues are made in China, the prices should come way down.:D

Craig

watchez
07-12-2006, 03:06 PM
The Economy Sledges have always been made in China! They still are only McDermott is buying and selling them now. The RS and MG Customs came out of Mikes shop. That is how I understand it guys. This info came from respected, and not so respected, names in the cuemaking world.;)
Purdman

Did you hear this from Mike himself? That would be the best place to get your info. He has a toll free 800 number & a website if you would like to ask any questions. I hope I get this right..... The economy sledges were made in Taiwan (if that is China, then I guess Alabama & Mississippi are the same state). They no longer are. Fury cues, I believe, are still made in Taiwan....in the same factory the Sledgehammers used to be made. John could clarify this or continue to talk about Mars. McDermott is also no longer making Sledgehammers. Not to get to into the business matters of it all, but there was/is a dispute between the McDermott & the owner of Sledgehammer. Current Sledgehammers are being made in Greenville SC in Mike's shop. To clarify further, if you see Mike displaying his cues he might have some of these Taiwan or McDermott models for sale as he is not fully out of the supply. But when selling them, he always makes sure the person buying knows which model they are getting.

Good luck to Mike on the IPT.

RiverCity
07-12-2006, 04:48 PM
I was talking to Mike in vegas this past May..... he was less than thrilled with McDermott, said the quality of the product carrying his name was not up to the quality he was promised. He just went back to making them himself. That way he can be sure of the quality of what is going out the door.
Chuck

pooltchr
07-12-2006, 05:21 PM
Wow, I suspect that now that these cues are made in China, the prices should come way down.:D

Craig
I wouldn't hold my breath!;)
Steve

Jack Madden
07-12-2006, 05:54 PM
I recently re-wraped a Preditor 4K7. After removing the wrap, I found Chinese writing on the under wrap.

I read and write Korean, however, can not translate Chinese, however, I am familar with the text style and I am certain that it was Chinese.

Wow, I suspect that now that these cues are made in China, the prices should come way down.:D

Craig

Craig
Where in the Cascades? Near Rainier? Have some relatives in that part of the country and have been promising to visit. How's the weather in the fall?
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

manwon
07-12-2006, 10:19 PM
Craig
Where in the Cascades? Near Rainier? Have some relatives in that part of the country and have been promising to visit. How's the weather in the fall?
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

Hello Jack, I am located in Lakewood, Washington. Jack you most likely do not remember but we have spoken to each other before.

Jack we both a Mutual Friend in Ken "Sarge" Aylesworth and his wife Charley.

Sarge was showing me one of your cues and I had some questions so he called you up.

To answer, your question Jack, the Fall here is really nice and the weather is great, I would think that it is a great time for a visit.

If you come in, stop by my Pool Hall, Full Splice Billiards, Sarge can give you directions or you can contact me at fullsplicebilliards2@comcast.net.

Have a Great Night!!!!!

Craig

Pinocchio
12-23-2006, 05:13 PM
I own zero Chinese pool cues but I would like to bet my house that over half of my cues were crafted on Chinese lathes. Oh by the way I use Sniper tips an have no idea where they are made. I would buy 100% American but its almost impossible to do.
Pinocchio

Craig Fales
12-23-2006, 05:40 PM
If you buy one of my cues they are 100% American made....;)
________
HEADSHOP (http://headshop.net/)

cuejoey
12-23-2006, 06:06 PM
People of the Republic of America now is the time to unite..everything anymore is made in China..Buy American..there are many fine American cuemakers..thank you for listening..i love lamp..Merry Christmas

Dr. Dissent
12-23-2006, 06:27 PM
I believe Lucasi cues are made in China. If they are, that's fine with me. I have a SP Lucasi for bar play and think it's an incredible value. Other Lucasi cues I tried were remarkably good for the money, too.

I purchased one several years ago and it had a tiny sticker saying it was made in China. There are some tiny flaws but it doesn't matter. Can't ask for more because they are affordably priced.

ratcues
12-23-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm sorry but I beg to differ about the quality of import cues. I see hundreds of cues a month that come to me for repairs. I see all of the wonderful manufacturing techniques used. Buy an American cue. Its a few more dollars but worth it in the long run. I'd much rather have a plain jane American-made cue than the "inlays" in the imports.

Jack Flanagan
12-23-2006, 07:15 PM
?? can't believe the cue snobbery on AZ and around the USA,,,sure it is nice to own a $1000+ cue, but the new blood/lifeline/new players coming up in the pool world, can't afford them,,,and just like the old joke about how a medium pizza and a pro pool player are alike (neither one can feel a family of four),,,most of the up and coming players will never be able to afford one...

GIVE IT A REST, my guess is that 90% of the cues in the USA are from China, Taiwan, and Japan,,,,most never bring up the question of a stick's origin; and if they did it is only to ask if they got it from wal mart or somewhere else ( there's even snobbery in the lower priced cues),,,I've even seen kids make fun of another's wal mart cue (they bought theirs from sears, so it must be better!)

if you have time to "beat up" someone over where they got their cue, search the net,,,lots of foreign sites that manufacture/sell cues,,,most of you would be surprised that Turkey, Afganistan, and others manufacture cues (high priced ones, at that)...

just my night before, night before Christmas rant !,,,,,,,,,,

CUE SNOBBERY; BAH HUMBUG........ J :mad:

StevenPWaldon
12-23-2006, 07:52 PM
tap tap tap

Everyone here seems to be comparing apples to oranges. You can't honestly compare an inexpensive import to an expensive domestic product and then discount the imported cues based not on their own merit.

And has been mentioned earlier, Lucasi is manufactured in Taiwan. Poolsleuth, is that one of the third world countries you mention? Their eyes are funny and they have different colored skin, so it may fit your definition. Regardless, pros like Buddy Hall and recent Artistic Pool World Champion Tom Rossman seem to be doing fine with these 'cheap' Taiwanese cues.

?? can't believe the cue snobbery on AZ and around the USA,,,sure it is nice to own a $1000+ cue, but the new blood/lifeline/new players coming up in the pool world, can't afford them,,,and just like the old joke about how a medium pizza and a pro pool player are alike (neither one can feel a family of four),,,most of the up and coming players will never be able to afford one...

GIVE IT A REST, my guess is that 90% of the cues in the USA are from China, Taiwan, and Japan,,,,most never bring up the question of a stick's origin; and if they did it is only to ask if they got it from wal mart or somewhere else ( there's even snobbery in the lower priced cues),,,I've even seen kids make fun of another's wal mart cue (they bought theirs from sears, so it must be better!)

if you have time to "beat up" someone over where they got their cue, search the net,,,lots of foreign sites that manufacture/sell cues,,,most of you would be surprised that Turkey, Afganistan, and others manufacture cues (high priced ones, at that)...

just my night before, night before Christmas rant !,,,,,,,,,,

CUE SNOBBERY; BAH HUMBUG........ J :mad:

curly
12-23-2006, 08:32 PM
Too BAD all the Products that are Made in China do not refelect the price of Chineese Labor.

Tap,tap,tap....you're 1 million percent right!! That's probably they're profit making on what they sell for and what they pay for labor. Materials are very resonable and so are labor costs but the retail costs which seem reasonable are very high percentage-wise! I recall buying a GE coiled flourescent light bulb many years ago at Sams Club for almost $14. Then I read on the label that it was made in Peoples Republic of China. Wow, the profit on that lamp was astronomical to say the least. The B.S. that we're told is to keep the cost of products competetive but I think higher profitability is the real reason.

elvicash
12-23-2006, 10:25 PM
I would pay more for a cue, light bulb etc to buy American. We have higher labor costs. High labor costs means they will usually spend more money on raw materials as well

No matter who makes the product I purchase I ultimately want to purchase Quality

X Breaker
12-23-2006, 10:33 PM
I would pay more for a cue, light bulb etc to buy American. We have higher labor costs. High labor costs means they will usually spend more money on raw materials as well

No matter who makes the product I purchase I ultimately want to purchase Quality

If we don't support American cue makers, a few years' later, most of our cues will be made in China in the same factory under different brands. We will then have no one to blame but ourselves.

Pool cue making is a part of the American history, I agree that quality does not come cheap, and it is up to the consumers to spend their money on those who build quality products so they can continue to do so.

A cue made in the USA usually has a higher resale value than one made overseas, although it is more expensive to buy.

Just my 2 cents,

Richard

will8834
12-23-2006, 10:44 PM
The major problem in my opinion with industries moving there operations to China is they are fueling the the chinese military. The bulk of the profits from industries in china go to funding there military and not to feeding there people. This is one reason I feel china should never receive favorite trade nation status.

Jack Flanagan
12-23-2006, 11:28 PM
If we don't support American cue makers, a few years' later, most of our cues will be made in China in the same factory under different brands. We will then have no one to blame but ourselves.

?? not later, now !..........just looked at a Cuestix Intl catalog, only 4 out of 17 branded cues from this company alone are USA made,,,,the rest :China, Taiwan, Japan,,,,,

not knocking their products, just stating the facts,,,,and I can guarantee that those 4 brands (Joss, McDermott, Schon & Viking)make up less than 10% of their total stick sales; I'm talking volumn, not dollars...

just got in from shooting pool; used two sticks from my bag tonight : a Lucasi sneeky with a 'smart shaft' and a Mike Erwin (apprenticed under Meucci),,,,only 1 of 4 in my bag is USA made and it's a matter of economics,,,,,,,,JMHO

bandido
12-23-2006, 11:31 PM
Too BAD all the Products that are Made in China do not refelect the price of Chineese Labor.
It actually did but the selling price that you're complaining of is after the US Importers' mark-up. This mark-up is what goes back into the US Economy.

You really can't put blame on the Chinese Manufacturers nor the US Importers. Labor Expense has always been the tricky part of running a business. When another slice is added to the pie and causes the Product Sales Volume figure to decline that has to affect an expense area of the manufacturing. And more often than not, it's the Labour expense part.

US Manufacturers needed to find a way to be competitive between themselves in order to offer or maintain the retail cost of their product that's acceptable to the buying public. If all of the products are forced to reflect the high cost of any manufacturing stage then the buying public may double-take on the decision to purchase or cry out for a wage increase to maintain their standard of living. A viscious, viscious cycle indeed!

Jack Flanagan
12-23-2006, 11:36 PM
I recently re-wraped a Preditor 4K7. After removing the wrap, I found Chinese writing on the under wrap.

I read and write Korean, however, can not translate Chinese, however, I am familar with the text style and I am certain that it was Chinese.

Wow, I suspect that now that these cues are made in China, the prices should come way down.:D

Craig

who led you to believe Predators were ever made anywhere else except China ?.....lots of Chinese websites, check them out, lots of different brands have specific sticks mfg. in Japan, their complete line of cues are not all mfg. in the same place,,,just the facts; jack...

manwon
12-24-2006, 12:10 AM
who led you to believe Predators were ever made anywhere else except China ?.....lots of Chinese websites, check them out, lots of different brands have specific sticks mfg. in Japan, their complete line of cues are not all mfg. in the same place,,,just the facts; jack...

Well Jack, those are not the facts. All Predator cues are now made in China, and the difference between those cues and cues manufactured in Japan( All Adam Custom Cue Products) is that the Adam products are marked as such, and they are also advertised as such, since the 1970's.

While you are right, that not all products are manufactured at all times at one single location, there is no deception involved and know one has to guess where they are made, unlike other manufactures who play the guessing games about where their products are made and by the way also charge a great deal of money for products that cost little to make!!

Now those are the facts Jack!!

Merry Christmas

Manwon

Gerald
12-24-2006, 12:51 AM
I was talking to a guy last night at Hard Times who now carries a line of cues made by a Taiwanese family. The cues are very impressive in their looks and hit amazingly well. He had one partially made cue that he was able to disassemble and what he called the "A" joint was all wood with a wood tenon. He said that they did have weight bolts. The kicker is that he says he can sell the cues for under a $100.00! The cues he showed me didn't have points but did have a butt design and 5 very nice rings. The family is comprised of a Grandfather, father 2 sons and a daughter and a few other workers who assist them. Quality of the wood is unknown but the quality of the cues beat the hell out of others that I have seen.

X Breaker
12-24-2006, 01:21 AM
Well Jack, those are not the facts. All Predator cues are now made in China, and the difference between those cues and cues manufactured in Japan( All Adam Custom Cue Products) is that the Adam products are marked as such, and they are also advertised as such, since the 1970's.

While you are right, that not all products are manufactured at all times at one single location, there is no deception involved and know one has to guess where they are made, unlike other manufactures who play the guessing games about where their products are made and by the way also charge a great deal of money for products that cost little to make!!

Now those are the facts Jack!!

Merry Christmas

Manwon

I would like to point out that a cue built in Japan, such as a Mezz, is of very high quality. They were also in Vegas this year showcasing their cues. Mushashi sells their cues for over $1000+ and are getting lots of good reviews. Lots of pro players worldwide are using Keith Andy cues, which is a fine custom cue by any standards.

Unfortunately, not all Adam cues are built in Japan anymore.

I agree that some companies are trying to hide where their cues were built while others are very straight forward. I know some customers would certainly like to know this piece of information. Asking the customers to guess may seem like the company has something to hide.

In case anyone wonders, we build our cues with Samsara cues in North Dakota, USA, and then we install the tip and the leather wrap in Vancouver, Canada.

Richard

LWW
12-24-2006, 01:46 AM
most of you would be surprised that Turkey, Afganistan, and others manufacture cues (high priced ones, at that)...

just my night before, night before Christmas rant !,,,,,,,,,,

CUE SNOBBERY; BAH HUMBUG........ J :mad:
Turkey and Afghanistan are democracies and do not run their people down with tanks.

LWW

manwon
12-24-2006, 03:00 AM
I would like to point out that a cue built in Japan, such as a Mezz, is of very high quality. They were also in Vegas this year showcasing their cues. Mushashi sells their cues for over $1000+ and are getting lots of good reviews. Lots of pro players worldwide are using Keith Andy cues, which is a fine custom cue by any standards.

Unfortunately, not all Adam cues are built in Japan anymore.

I agree that some companies are trying to hide where their cues were built while others are very straight forward. I know some customers would certainly like to know this piece of information. Asking the customers to guess may seem like the company has something to hide.

In case anyone wonders, we build our cues with Samsara cues in North Dakota, USA, and then we install the tip and the leather wrap in Vancouver, Canada.

Richard

Thanks for the information Richard, like I said above I am just tired of the deception in this market. Long term it will do no one any good, Richard I own a Billiard equipment retail store, a pool hall, and I build a limited number of conversion cues, along with many thousands of dollars monthly in cue repairs.

While some of these companies build a decent product most do not. The materials are substandard, especially the adhesives, which will break down in a short period of time, wraps come loose, butt caps come off, ferrules come loose, pins come out, and even forearms and the entire butts separate from the under wrap after the aluminum screws break.

I wish other retailers would step up and not be deceptive, it may not be good short term, but I think it would have a positive long term effect.

Merry Christmas and Happy New to you!!!

Manwon

buddha162
12-24-2006, 05:10 AM
The major problem in my opinion with industries moving there operations to China is they are fueling the the chinese military. The bulk of the profits from industries in china go to funding there military and not to feeding there people. This is one reason I feel china should never receive favorite trade nation status.

LOL your cue money is fueling the Red Army!

Are you aware that China has had a free market/enterprise system for over 20 years now?

-Roger

LWW
12-24-2006, 06:31 AM
Are you aware that China has had a free market/enterprise system for over 20 years now?

-Roger
Now that is the funniest post I've seen this year.

LWW

MrLucky
12-24-2006, 06:40 AM
I can tell you that almost all of your crafted wood products are now made in China and Taiwan ! some for the worst! (manufacturers and resellers alike for instance but not limited to High volume chains like "Rooms to Go" and "American Signature" Furniture Stores) entire lines are knocked off and made on the cheap in Malaysia and other areas due to cheap labor and supplies! The results being inferior products ! But a few high end manufacturers are doing their manufacturing there now with the same or higher standards that they had here! with the result of actually higher quality than available here since their labor cost are so much lower! Hopefully some of the Cues that are sourced there are receiving this same benefit ! though in the case of Cues I sincerely doubt it! :(

acedotcom
12-24-2006, 07:25 AM
So far I've heard that Predator and Falcon now make their cues in China.I've also heard that Dufferin cues were bought out and now made in China.

Does anyone know of any other cues now made in China.Is the quality suffering?How much do these factories pay their labourers?

My first cue was a Dufferin Sneaky Pete and I also previously owned a Falcon with a Predator shaft.Not bad beginners cues,however, I'd really be reluctant to recommend them to anyone now.
RJ


Uggh! No wonder the Falcon SP I bought 8 months ago was so shoddily made. If you run your finger over the edge of the inlays, you can feel the ridges.

I keep getting emails urging me to become a dealer of this Chinese company's cues - http://www.b2bsmartcue.com/cgi-bin/index.pl. I couldn't get them to send me one free sample. What do you think of their metal ferules? :confused:

JoeyA
12-24-2006, 08:32 AM
Hello guys, this is Peter from Falcon Cues Ltd. I would just like to clear up some of the doubts and questions a lot of you might be having at the moment.
Falcon Cues is on the move to Taiwan, that is correct. We made this decision due to business related reasons I'm sure most of you would understand. Of course we are aware of quality issues and it will be one of our main focuses once the factory is set up. We will ensure the quality of Falcon Cues made in the new factory equal to or even better than those made in Canada. This will be our committment to our customers.
Also, to ensure good customer service, we are also setting up a warehousing facility in Mississauga, Ontario at the moment. This is to ensure that our customers still gets the same product support and services they are entitled to as a Falcon customer.

I hope this will help clear some of the issues or doubts that you may have, and if you have anymore questions, you can email me at peter@falconcues.com anytime.

Cheers

Hi Peter,
Thanks for clearing up those issues and congratulations on continuing to make quality control and customer service important priorities in your new business plan.
Good luck and Merry Christmas,
JoeyA

StrokeofLuck
12-24-2006, 08:48 AM
I can tell you from first hand losing business to China that the labor rates are not just lower they are way lower and so are the quality standards regardless of what Peter@Falcon Cues says. It's pretty difficult to police your quality when something is made in Asia. There are huge communication barriers and when something is made that inexpensively it's easy to settle for less and send your rejects/seconds back to be re-worked. Unfortunately because of these low labor rates it's the fastest growing industrial nation.

Cornerman
12-24-2006, 09:37 AM
I can tell you from first hand losing business to China that the labor rates are not just lower they are way lower and so are the quality standards regardless of what Peter@Falcon Cues says. It's pretty difficult to police your quality when something is made in Asia. There are huge communication barriers and when something is made that inexpensively it's easy to settle for less and send your rejects/seconds back to be re-worked. Unfortunately because of these low labor rates it's the fastest growing industrial nation.


While this may be true for many things, if a U.S.-based company uses an off-shore company to do their manufacturing, it is absolutely the U.S. company that is in charge of the quality. It cannot be blamed on China, for example, if the parent company isn't holding them to quality standards.

My company, we have had several companies in China for over a decade. In general, those companies have been our very best. The management and the laborers have shown pride in their work like we can never achieve. I don't know what other US companies are doing to not get this type of quality and committment.


How many of you actually do any kind of legitimate business with China???

Fred

pooltchr
12-24-2006, 09:54 AM
I can tell you from first hand losing business to China that the labor rates are not just lower they are way lower and so are the quality standards regardless of what Peter@Falcon Cues says. It's pretty difficult to police your quality when something is made in Asia. There are huge communication barriers and when something is made that inexpensively it's easy to settle for less and send your rejects/seconds back to be re-worked. Unfortunately because of these low labor rates it's the fastest growing industrial nation.

It's not that difficult. I know of one company here in the US who has sent an employee to China to oversee product development and quality control. He also happens to be a poster here, and maybe he will get a chance to post his views on this topic from his unique perspective.
Steve

Jack Flanagan
12-24-2006, 09:57 AM
While this may be true for many things, if a U.S.-based company uses an off-shore company to do their manufacturing, it is absolutely the U.S. company that is in charge of the quality. It cannot be blamed on China, for example, if the parent company isn't holding them to quality standards.

My company, we have had several companies in China for over a decade. In general, those companies have been our very best. The management and the laborers have shown pride in their work like we can never achieve. I don't know what other US companies are doing to not get this type of quality and committment.


How many of you actually do any kind of legitimate business with China???

Fred

have a pleasant Sunday morning before Christmas, Cornerman,,,I do business with China, Taiwan and Japan,,,find them to be eager and honorable businessmen,,,JMHO

Jack Flanagan
12-24-2006, 10:07 AM
Uggh! No wonder the Falcon SP I bought 8 months ago was so shoddily made. If you run your finger over the edge of the inlays, you can feel the ridges.

I keep getting emails urging me to become a dealer of this Chinese company's cues - http://www.b2bsmartcue.com/cgi-bin/index.pl. I couldn't get them to send me one free sample. What do you think of their metal ferules? :confused:

metal ferrules ?!? you only have to go to wal mart to see these very cues, some a wal mart even have the highly desired screw-in tip,,,:rolleyes: :p :D

jay helfert
12-24-2006, 10:08 AM
I can tell you what is being manufactured in China today. Nearly EVERYTHING! There are factories everywhere and more being built all over the place. I never saw so much new construction in my life.

From what I was told (sorry this is second hand), most American furnitiure is being built there. And like someone else said, nearly all wood products as well. Guess what, BRUNSWICK pool tables are built in a factory in Shanghai. I got this from the horses mouth. The filipino distributor shared this info with me at the WPC.

Snapshot9
12-24-2006, 10:24 AM
It is called the law of Supply and Demand? We, Americans, have enjoyed the good life for quite some time. Unions continue to push and push for more and more and more. When a skilled worker in Detroit on the line is making $68 an hour (plus overtime and holiday pay), just how do you think we are suppose to compete? I would say, just offhand, that that skilled labor job is NOT WORTH THAT MUCH AN HOUR ....... PERIOD

Our whole country is starting to spin out of control, we are just starting to see the effects of it in segmented areas so far. Quite simply, I fear the future of our country, because I feel our country will suffer much more than we have seen so far, and could end up completely financially ruined.

buddha162
12-24-2006, 12:50 PM
Now that is the funniest post I've seen this year.

LWW

You must not spend too much time outside of NPR then...

But please, explain what's funny about my post. My family has engaged business in China for over a decade, and were among the first wave of investors after Deng opened up the market there.

-Roger (can't wait...)

MrLucky
12-24-2006, 03:31 PM
While this sbe true for many things, if a U.S.-based company uses an off-shore company to do their manufacturing, it is absolutely the U.S. company that is in charge of the quality. It cannot be blamed on China, for example, if the parent company isn't holding them to quality standards.

My company, we have had several companies in China for over a decade. In general, those companies have been our very best. The management and the laborers have shown pride in their work like we can never achieve. I don't know what other US companies are doing to not get this type of quality and committment.


How many of you actually do any kind of legitimate business with China???

Fred

As I said earlier in this thread having been in the furniture business I have seen both sides of the coin ! Companies like Fine Furniture have well run high tech factories in China that produce etremely high quality product at a cost of production that allows them to compete with a quality product at a reasonable selling price ! while on the other hand producers like Rooms to Go use chinese shops to produce low quality knock offs that are not worth the money they spend to ship them here! :mad:

Radiophonicus
12-24-2006, 08:22 PM
When a skilled worker in Detroit on the line is making $68 an hour (plus overtime and holiday pay)

You're not even close with this number. As for the China quality issue I'll say this; when it comes to wood it's generally not a good idea to ship it back and forth overseas (saltwater) on barges. This has been a constant issue with the skateboarding community as the wood becomes more prone to breakage. What's this have to do with pool? Well, the main wood used in skateboards (built to withstand 6 foot men leaping off of 10 foot ledges) is North American hard rock maple. I don't know much about cue construction, but I do know that maple seems to be the shaft wood of choice.

mthornto
12-24-2006, 08:39 PM
[QUOTE=jay helfert]There are factories everywhere and more being built all over the place. I never saw so much new construction in my life.
QUOTE]

Let me second that. My source? I am in China right now. Over he last few weeks I have been to several cities in sourthern China and one trip up to Beijing. You have to see the amount of contstruction to believe it. Ride a train through southern China and look out the window. If you see less than 3 or 4 large cranes building a 20 or 30 story building it is unusual.

GADawg
12-24-2006, 09:02 PM
The ignorance that surrounds this subject is absolutely astounding. Please educate yourselves for a few minutes on how the world really works, how the world worked in the past and how it will continue to work until there is equilibrium between access to goods and services and pruchasing power.

1. Labor - Since the first traders people have brought goods bought at a low price to places where they could sell them at a higher price. With the advent of a consumer class this spread to manufacturing and the purchase of labor wherever the cost of such labor coupled with the transport and logistics costs made the most sense economically. The United States of America, known as the "Colonies" before that, was a good source of CHEAP labor for the British Empire and our country is built in great part on the backs of people who were working in conditions far worse than you can imagine for far less than you can imagine. In fact, America is still teeming with sweatshops that carry on the same deplorable practices now.

2. Fair Wages/Product Cost - The price of a product reflects many things of which the labor cost is one factor. Productivity is a factor, transport, overhead, tariffs, advertising and so on all play a part in price. But LABOR is the one that gets people fired up, because it's easy to tie labor prices to nationalism and incite people's ire. In China the labor rates are fair for the economy. The cost of living is much lower so the cost of labor is also much lower. The cost of labor in Podunk, Missouri is also less then cost of labor in New Your City. (no offense to those living in Podunk, where I am sure the general quality of life is better.) Do some companies charge outrageous prices compared to the cost of the labor? Sure they do, it's called "what the market will bear". Competition usually takes care of prices and quality ensuring better quality for less money. Competition also leads to higher labor costs as more skilled workers are able to command higher wages. A fair wage is a living wage. Many more folks in China who work in the manufacturing sector are making a living wage or better. A lot of Americans aren't making a living wage. So who is the oppressor here? And it's not "Buy Amercian" that solves this issue. It takes the PEOPLE to stand up and demand to be paid a wage that allows them some security. And it takes the people to stand up and tell the government to stop being fiscally irresponsible and wasting the excess money so that inflation doesn't eat up the wage increase. But that is another topic. Back to China.

3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.

4. Quality. The relative quality of an item is directly related to it's price and expected lifespan. Can one reasonably expect a $20 Wal Mart cue to last ten years? How a $100 Lucasi? How about a $1000 Samsara? It is abolsutely possible to make a cue in China that has all the quality contained in a Samsara. Is it practical or economical to do so and is there demand? No. The quality of cues Made in China reflects what the market will bear in terms of the majority of people consuming those cues. The overall quality of the cues is on par with that of most American manufacturers because the distributers and the American consumer has demanded it and America has supplied the technical knowledge while China has supplied the labor and the infrastructure. Will there be some cues from some manufacturers that will exhibit flaws? Of course. Just as there are cues rolling off the line at the American maker's places that have flaws in them that get by everyone on the line. The fact of the matter is that import cues satisfy an economic demand that exists. And the quality has risen, due to competition and demand, to be the equal of and in some cases better than that of American cue manufacturers. Partly fueled by the self-same American cue manufacturers trading their knowledge for lower priced goods to remain competitive. And this gets all the way back to the beginning which is that we live on a ball and on a ball everything comes around.

So please, please educate yourselves before making comments about topics so that you are commenting from an informed stance rather than a purely emotional and subjective one. Understand that protectionism has never worked in the past and will ever work in the future for true growth and equilibirum in quality of life around the globe. If you truly care about the plight of the world, including the USA, then start living in a less wasteful manner and spread your purchases among those companies that are socially responsible as world citizens. Take some of your time to find out which companies those are and support them rather than blindly wrapping yourselve in the flag to be led around like docile sheep.


John -

As an American who is living in China and has worked here for almost 10 years, I support every statement you have made above about the current situation in China. I just didn't have the energy to write all of that.

Most Americans and others who have not been to China and done business here are completely mislead and misinformed about the situation here.

Rep to you

buddha162
12-25-2006, 02:43 AM
3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.

I agree with almost everything written, but wanted to point out a major obstacle to true economic equality in China: the "houkou" system, which relegates the rural-born to a staggeringly lower social-economic caste than city dwellers.

The Socialist revolution in China was achieved through the peasantry, yet the market reforms of Deng Xiao-Ping focused enormous capital in industry and urban developement, while neglecting the basic needs of China's "socialist heroes."

Being a Chinese American, I would love nothing more than to see a politically free China. The process towards democracy is the largest determinant of success, but even a democracy born from a bloody coup stands a better chance in China than most countries.

-Roger (hope I live long enough to see that day...)

jay helfert
12-25-2006, 03:28 AM
The ignorance that surrounds this subject is absolutely astounding. Please educate yourselves for a few minutes on how the world really works, how the world worked in the past and how it will continue to work until there is equilibrium between access to goods and services and pruchasing power.

1. Labor - Since the first traders people have brought goods bought at a low price to places where they could sell them at a higher price. With the advent of a consumer class this spread to manufacturing and the purchase of labor wherever the cost of such labor coupled with the transport and logistics costs made the most sense economically. The United States of America, known as the "Colonies" before that, was a good source of CHEAP labor for the British Empire and our country is built in great part on the backs of people who were working in conditions far worse than you can imagine for far less than you can imagine. In fact, America is still teeming with sweatshops that carry on the same deplorable practices now.

2. Fair Wages/Product Cost - The price of a product reflects many things of which the labor cost is one factor. Productivity is a factor, transport, overhead, tariffs, advertising and so on all play a part in price. But LABOR is the one that gets people fired up, because it's easy to tie labor prices to nationalism and incite people's ire. In China the labor rates are fair for the economy. The cost of living is much lower so the cost of labor is also much lower. The cost of labor in Podunk, Missouri is also less then cost of labor in New Your City. (no offense to those living in Podunk, where I am sure the general quality of life is better.) Do some companies charge outrageous prices compared to the cost of the labor? Sure they do, it's called "what the market will bear". Competition usually takes care of prices and quality ensuring better quality for less money. Competition also leads to higher labor costs as more skilled workers are able to command higher wages. A fair wage is a living wage. Many more folks in China who work in the manufacturing sector are making a living wage or better. A lot of Americans aren't making a living wage. So who is the oppressor here? And it's not "Buy Amercian" that solves this issue. It takes the PEOPLE to stand up and demand to be paid a wage that allows them some security. And it takes the people to stand up and tell the government to stop being fiscally irresponsible and wasting the excess money so that inflation doesn't eat up the wage increase. But that is another topic. Back to China.

3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.

4. Quality. The relative quality of an item is directly related to it's price and expected lifespan. Can one reasonably expect a $20 Wal Mart cue to last ten years? How a $100 Lucasi? How about a $1000 Samsara? It is abolsutely possible to make a cue in China that has all the quality contained in a Samsara. Is it practical or economical to do so and is there demand? No. The quality of cues Made in China reflects what the market will bear in terms of the majority of people consuming those cues. The overall quality of the cues is on par with that of most American manufacturers because the distributers and the American consumer has demanded it and America has supplied the technical knowledge while China has supplied the labor and the infrastructure. Will there be some cues from some manufacturers that will exhibit flaws? Of course. Just as there are cues rolling off the line at the American maker's places that have flaws in them that get by everyone on the line. The fact of the matter is that import cues satisfy an economic demand that exists. And the quality has risen, due to competition and demand, to be the equal of and in some cases better than that of American cue manufacturers. Partly fueled by the self-same American cue manufacturers trading their knowledge for lower priced goods to remain competitive. And this gets all the way back to the beginning which is that we live on a ball and on a ball everything comes around.

So please, please educate yourselves before making comments about topics so that you are commenting from an informed stance rather than a purely emotional and subjective one. Understand that protectionism has never worked in the past and will ever work in the future for true growth and equilibirum in quality of life around the globe. If you truly care about the plight of the world, including the USA, then start living in a less wasteful manner and spread your purchases among those companies that are socially responsible as world citizens. Take some of your time to find out which companies those are and support them rather than blindly wrapping yourselve in the flag to be led around like docile sheep.

After reading this, I felt like I took a class in Economics 101. Thank you Professor Barton.

A couple of areas that I observe being vastly different in China are the Legal System and the Bureaucracy. For example, if you have a civil dispute with someone over a busines deal gone sour, good luck. Scams abound and it is "buyer beware" when you enter into a business relationship in China. I don't think there is even any such thing as a Civil Court. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is my observation.

And when it comes time to get necessary permits or licenses to operate a business, you may enter a rabbit warren of operatives. They may shuttle you from one office to another, paying various fees as you go. These offices have no prescribed hours of operation, and may be closed at any time for almost any reason. They may tell you to come back tomorrow after you have traveled for two hours to reach this office (it happened to us).

Heaven forbid, a government official doesn't like you for any reason. In their little fiefdom, they can make your life miserable. I personally witnessed this when my girlfriend was applying for a "Single Certificate". The "Official" in charge took one look at her, and belittled her for being single and never married at age 34. I could hear the contempt in his voice, even though I did not understand the language. He told her to wait outside and he "may" be able to help her before 5PM. This was at 1PM.

We sat and stewed for about 30 minutes, and I finally got up and peeked my head into his office. He was kicking back and having a gabfest with two of his buddies. They stopped talking and looked up at me. I said excuse me and ducked back out. I just wanted him to see the American that was with her. I didn't really know if it would do any good, or just piss him off. I knew I had NO power there. He came out 15 minutes later and brought all the paperwork she needed. Charged us over 500 Chinese dollars though (about $75).

Ok Professor, I'm ready for my second class.

GADawg
12-25-2006, 05:12 AM
After reading this, I felt like I took a class in Economics 101. Thank you Professor Barton.

A couple of areas that I observe being vastly different in China are the Legal System and the Bureaucracy. For example, if you have a civil dispute with someone over a busines deal gone sour, good luck. Scams abound and it is "buyer beware" when you enter into a business relationship in China. I don't think there is even any such thing as a Civil Court. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is my observation.There are civil courts but the process is very cumbersome. It is however improving wth time.

And when it comes time to get necessary permits or licenses to operate a business, you may enter a rabbit warren of operatives. They may shuttle you from one office to another, paying various fees as you go. These offices have no prescribed hours of operation, and may be closed at any time for almost any reason. They may tell you to come back tomorrow after you have traveled for two hours to reach this office (it happened to us).[COLOR="royalblue"]True. Doing any kind of business here is a long process not suited to the hurry up style of most western business people. There is a saying about doing business in China - "Everything is possible, nothing is easy"

Heaven forbid, a government official doesn't like you for any reason. In their little fiefdom, they can make your life miserable. I personally witnessed this when my girlfriend was applying for a "Single Certificate". The "Official" in charge took one look at her, and belittled her for being single and never married at age 34. I could hear the contempt in his voice, even though I did not understand the language. He told her to wait outside and he "may" be able to help her before 5PM. This was at 1PM.

We sat and stewed for about 30 minutes, and I finally got up and peeked my head into his office. He was kicking back and having a gabfest with two of his buddies. They stopped talking and looked up at me. I said excuse me and ducked back out. I just wanted him to see the American that was with her. I didn't really know if it would do any good, or just piss him off. I knew I had NO power there. He came out 15 minutes later and brought all the paperwork she needed. Charged us over 500 Chinese dollars though (about $75). Jay - Foreigners get special treatment. Next time, be sure the government people see you in the beginning

Ok Professor, I'm ready for my second class.


Jay - See replies above from someone who has been here a long time. I make my living helping western business people in China

jay helfert
12-25-2006, 02:45 PM
Jay - See replies above from someone who has been here a long time. I make my living helping western business people in China

Thanks for your reply. I LOVED China and the people, although we were stared out everywhere we went. I rarely, if ever, saw another mixed couple (Western man and Chinese woman). But people were nice to us and especially to me.

Every once in a while, a young person would approach me and ask to speak English with me. Usually they were quite fluent, and that was also a pleasant surprise. I did not have a sense of being in a Communist land, with an oppressed people. Free enterprise was everywhere, from the marketplace to the malls and night clubs. Everyone had a gig, and if there were homeless I didn't see them.

The parks are beautiful and well kept, and very spacious even in the large cities. And of course, the Western dollar still has a lot of buying power. Of course, you must convert to Chinese dollars. Even Hong Kong dollars are unacceptable most places. It was no problem converting money, and we got about eight Chinese dollars for one U.S. dollar at any bank. And banks are everywhere.

In the bank, they asked for my passport and gave a $100 bill a thorough exam (more so than in a US bank), and then gave me exact change. Like 795.40 Chinese dollars. It was easy for me to travel around because I had a well versed tour guide. In some places we went though, men (like cab drivers and motorbike taxi guys) would openly flirt with her, and make suggestive remarks to me. Amy didn't like it one bit either.

I just brushed them off with a laugh and kept right on walking.

X Breaker
12-25-2006, 03:21 PM
Thanks for your reply. I LOVED China and the people, although we were stared out everywhere we went. I rarely, if ever, saw another mixed couple (Western man and Chinese woman). But people were nice to us and especially to me.

Every once in a while, a young person would approach me and ask to speak English with me. Usually they were quite fluent, and that was also a pleasant surprise. I did not have a sense of being in a Communist land, with an oppressed people. Free enterprise was everywhere, from the marketplace to the malls and night clubs. Everyone had a gig, and if there were homeless I didn't see them.

The parks are beautiful and well kept, and very spacious even in the large cities. And of course, the Western dollar still has a lot of buying power. Of course, you must convert to Chinese dollars. Even Hong Kong dollars are unacceptable most places. It was no problem converting money, and we got about eight Chinese dollars for one U.S. dollar at any bank. And banks are everywhere.

In the bank, they asked for my passport and gave a $100 bill a thorough exam (more so than in a US bank), and then gave me exact change. Like 795.40 Chinese dollars. It was easy for me to travel around because I had a well versed tour guide. In some places we went though, men (like cab drivers and motorbike taxi guys) would openly flirt with her, and make suggestive remarks to me. Amy didn't like it one bit either.

I just brushed them off with a laugh and kept right on walking.

Jay,
Years ago, in Hong Kong, most big stores in shopping malls would give special treatment to Westerners and Japanese, because they were the ones with the most spending power. In the past, to work in a retail store in some high end shopping mall would require fluent Japanese and English.
In the past, some Chinese establishment would discriminate those coming from mainland China.
Nowadays, those from mainland China are the ones with the most spending power, and also most respected by the retail industry.
This last few days during Christmas, there were lots of tourists from China spending on high end watches and other name brands item in Hong Kong making up a hugh piece of the total sales in the retail industry. If you walk into a store that sells Rolex and high end jewelry, over 70% of the customers are from China, and they are paying cash.
In Hong Kong, there is a hugh difference in preception on Chinese from mainland China before and after 1997. Especially in the last 5 years, economy in China has obviously improved a lot, as can be seen from the way Chinese are spending their money everywhere they go.
In Canada where I live, there are lots of immigrants from China in recent years, a lot of them come with lots of cash and spent them on big houses and cars once they landed.
I am sure there is still a big gap between the rich and the poor in China, but it is obvious that there are more opportunities, and more people are making more money because of that.
About doing business in China, it is not about how good you are, but who you know, and who is behind you. A network is very important. If you know the right people, things can be done very quickly; if you do not, you may have to go through a lot of frustration. Bride is still a fairly common thing, and one needs to be able to read between the lines as Chinese do not like to spell out everything.
Foreigners do usually get special treatment in some cases such as yours, they worried you might make a big scene and complain to their superiors and cause them a lot of trouble, their chance of promotion or even their jobs. Since they did not know who you were, they just assumed you may know someone important, or was someone important yourself. You will find that to be a very powerful tool in some cases dealing with the Chinese in China, may be more powerful that you might think.
Happy holidays,
Richard

CaptainHook
12-25-2006, 03:23 PM
Are Viking Cues made in the U.S.? and is Kaiser the same as Viking? maybe just an import line under a different name?

:)

jay helfert
12-25-2006, 03:36 PM
Jay,
Years ago, in Hong Kong, most big stores in shopping malls would give special treatment to Westerners and Japanese, because they were the ones with the most spending power. In the past, to work in a retail store in some high end shopping mall would require fluent Japanese and English.
In the past, some Chinese establishment would discriminate those coming from mainland China.
Nowadays, those from mainland China are the ones with the most spending power, and also most respected by the retail industry.
This last few days during Christmas, there were lots of tourists from China spending on high end watches and other name brands item in Hong Kong making up a hugh piece of the total sales in the retail industry. If you walk into a store that sells Rolex and high end jewelry, over 70% of the customers are from China, and they are paying cash.
In Hong Kong, there is a hugh difference in preception on Chinese from mainland China before and after 1997. Especially in the last 5 years, economy in China has obviously improved a lot, as can be seen from the way Chinese are spending their money everywhere they go.
In Canada where I live, there are lots of immigrants from China in recent years, a lot of them come with lots of cash and spent them on big houses and cars once they landed.
I am sure there is still a big gap between the rich and the poor in China, but it is obvious that there are more opportunities, and more people are making more money because of that.
About doing business in China, it is not about how good you are, but who you know, and who is behind you. A network is very important. If you know the right people, things can be done very quickly; if you do not, you may have to go through a lot of frustration. Bride is still a fairly common thing, and one needs to be able to read between the lines as Chinese do not like to spell out everything.
Foreigners do usually get special treatment in some cases such as yours, they worried you might make a big scene and complain to their superiors and cause them a lot of trouble, their chance of promotion or even their jobs. Since they did not know who you were, they just assumed you may know someone important, or was someone important yourself. You will find that to be a very powerful tool in some cases dealing with the Chinese in China, may be more powerful that you might think.
Happy holidays,
Richard

Thanks Richard for your detailed response. I too noticed the affluence that was evident in every big city that I visited. There are areas that rival uptown Manhattan and Beverly Hills. I saw the people driving their Lexus', Mercedes, BMW's and Rolls'. I visited the upscale shopping areas with quality goods and comparable pricing.

There is a huge divide between the rich and poor, similar to what can be seen in every city across the USA. No question that China is prospering and may well be the most powerful nation on Earth. I don't think any other nation wants to mess with China, except maybe their brethren in Taiwan. I just don't ever forsee a war between the two though. The people see each other as fellow Chinese.

PKM
12-25-2006, 03:39 PM
There's also this common idea that companies are duping their customers with low-price and low-quality products. If you are able to determine whether a cue or any other product is manufactured to your own standards, then what is the problem? With forums like this, it certainly can't be kept a secret. Either you are willing to make the price-quality tradeoff or you're not.

buddha162
12-25-2006, 03:58 PM
I don't think any other nation wants to mess with China, except maybe their brethren in Taiwan. I just don't ever forsee a war between the two though. The people see each other as fellow Chinese.

Although I see myself as Chinese (parents from Taiwan), a majority of Taiwanese people do not, and see no prospects for any kind of reunification with China.

The Taiwan strait is considered by many as one of the most dangerous borders in the world, with good reason. We've come close to war a few times in the past decade or so...

-Roger

X Breaker
12-25-2006, 04:04 PM
I think there is a difference between building a cue and putting together a computer or cell phone, the biggest differences are the mystery of a good "hit" and the unstable and inconsistent nature of wood.

If you build a cell phone in China, you can set up shop, give them a blue print, and have strict QC control like you would here in the US. All cell phones should be more or less the same, and it is easy to check if the standards is there. On an assembly line, you can train your workers to be proficient at particular tasks, over time, the production will become more smooth and more efficient. Whether you send you parts to the US or China, the parts are not going to change, they are the same parts.

With cues, we need to use wood, and wood will move due to temperature changes and moistures. A piece of wood, once it has been shipped to China in a container by ship, will change. When it is shipped back into the US, things change again. Is there really a way to prevent this from happening?

Also, wood has differrent density and other properties, so each piece that is used is a bit different. If you pick thirty shafts from the same factory, they will not all weight the same, but if you pick thirty cell phones from the same factory, they will all weight the same, so quality control wise, it is easier to be consistent in terms of weight and density. As we all know, balance point is affected by weight, and the amount of vibration/feedback is also affected by the density, so how do we keep them consistent?

A cue is not a cell phone, a cell phone is good as long as all the functions are functional; a cue is used by a player in a game, a good cue has to have good feedback, power, stability, and so on. These variables are very personal.

If all cues are made in the same factory, by the same people, with the same machine, with a different brand names, is it really possible that these difference brands will still have different characteristic in terms of the hit to satisfy different players with different personal perferences?

Can "hit" be drawn on a blue print so it can be duplicated by anyone anywhere in the world?

I am just asking, because I really dont know.

I guess my question is similiar to this: Can we duplicate the best violin from Italy in China and build thousands of them with the same performace as the original?

rackem
12-25-2006, 04:47 PM
Would you expect everyone of your x-breakers to hit exactly the same. :rolleyes: I think not! They can't all come from the same piece of wood. Some end up in the damp climate of Louisanna, some in the deserts of Arizona. :rolleyes:

rackem
12-25-2006, 05:02 PM
Are Viking Cues made in the U.S.? and is Kaiser the same as Viking? maybe just an import line under a different name?

:)
Kaiser is imported and distributed by J&J. Not related to Viking.

X Breaker
12-25-2006, 05:20 PM
Would you expect everyone of your x-breakers to hit exactly the same. :rolleyes: I think not!

I really do not want to hijack this thread, so I will keep it brief. I am suprised you actually ask me specific question about the X Breaker in this thread, but I will try my best to answer them.

We take a lot of time to weight and balance each and every X breaker. Some shafts are heavier and some are lighter, but they will be matched accordingly to produce a consistent balance point.

Samsara and us choose the best quality shaft wood out there, and we take a great deal of time to process them to keep them stable and straight. We only use shaft woods within a certain weight range.

We also core the butt section, and dip them in wood stabilizer, to keep them stable.

The coring also allows the balance and hit to be very consisent.

Our shaft tapers and butt tapers are all cut by CNC, all shafts are interchangable.

As you can see, it is my first priority to offer my customers a very consistent and well constructed cue.

They can't all come from the same piece of wood. Some end up in the damp climate of Louisanna, some in the deserts of Arizona. :rolleyes:

Our wood comes from the same source, and most of them are Samsara cues' private stock, which have been seasoned for a long time. Whether they come from the "same" piece of wood shoud not have any bearing. I am afraid I do not really understand that question.

Are you referring to where the wood come from or where they are going to?:)

With all due respect, I was trying to engage in a discussion about pool cues made in China, if you would like to ask me questions about the X Breaker, would you please start a new thread or email me? I just do not want to hijack a thread and disturb a perfectly fine discussion. I hope you can understand that.

I did a brief check up and noticed that you have been selling a lot of pool cues and cases in the $100 range which are made overseas. May be you can share with us your own experience with these products.:) I am sure the members here would greatly appreciate your experience and insight, since this is a thread about pool cues made in China.:)

Thank you.

MrLucky
12-25-2006, 05:30 PM
I think there is a difference between building a cue and putting together a computer or cell phone, the biggest differences are the mystery of a good "hit" and the unstable and inconsistent nature of wood.

If you build a cell phone in China, you can set up shop, give them a blue print, and have strict QC control like you would here in the US. All cell phones should be more or less the same, and it is easy to check if the standards is there. On an assembly line, you can train your workers to be proficient at particular tasks, over time, the production will become more smooth and more efficient. Whether you send you parts to the US or China, the parts are not going to change, they are the same parts.

With cues, we need to use wood, and wood will move due to temperature changes and moistures. A piece of wood, once it has been shipped to China in a container by ship, will change. When it is shipped back into the US, things change again. Is there really a way to prevent this from happening?

Also, wood has differrent density and other properties, so each piece that is used is a bit different. If you pick thirty shafts from the same factory, they will not all weight the same, but if you pick thirty cell phones from the same factory, they will all weight the same, so quality control wise, it is easier to be consistent in terms of weight and density. As we all know, balance point is affected by weight, and the amount of vibration/feedback is also affected by the density, so how do we keep them consistent?

A cue is not a cell phone, a cell phone is good as long as all the functions are functional; a cue is used by a player in a game, a good cue has to have good feedback, power, stability, and so on. These variables are very personal.

If all cues are made in the same factory, by the same people, with the same machine, with a different brand names, is it really possible that these difference brands will still have different characteristic in terms of the hit to satisfy different players with different personal perferences?

Can "hit" be drawn on a blue print so it can be duplicated by anyone anywhere in the world?

I am just asking, because I really dont know.

I guess my question is similiar to this: Can we duplicate the best violin from Italy in China and build thousands of them with the same performace as the original?

:) I can't see how these issues or concerns change whether in China or if its produced in SOHO ! The issues of wood shifting its parameters can happen from LA to NY as easily as it can from Saigon to Atlanta! as well as difference in quality control from crafter to crafter and shop to shop! The main element i see as a variable is mass production quality levels stipulated or mandated by having things produced faster and by less trined and skilled workers in order to save money! not to say all asian craftsmen are less skilled this is most definately not the case but the compelling reason for US manufacturers to utilize asian shops is to CUT COST ! which is directly related to High US wages and additional tax / benefits and all of the other reasons we for the most part enjoy a higher living standard than our asian counter parts! ;)

Jack Flanagan
12-25-2006, 05:43 PM
:) I can't see how these issues or concerns change whether in China or if its produced in SOHO ! The issues of wood shifting its parameters can happen from LA to NY as easily as it can from Saigon to Atlanta! as well as difference in quality control from crafter to crafter and shop to shop! The main element i see as a variable is mass production quality levels stipulated or mandated by having things produced faster and by less trined and skilled workers in order to save money!

Hey, you left out Sledge, MS,,,former/current (or who knows) home of Meucci. His workers in the Mississippi delta had no skills other than tractor driving or receiving welfare. That along with not keeping close tabs on quality control and inventory security will doom any business. Ain't just the third world that has unskilled labor. All 50 states have the same problem....

doesn't take a lot of skill to 'work' in a burger joint; does take some skill to manage it profitably, though ! "Welfare-to Work" ain't working here... J

Hal
12-25-2006, 06:07 PM
A decent quality CNC machinig center, lathe, or milling machine will produce the same quality regardless of where it's located. Provided it's kept in a controlled environment.
Someone complained a few pages back about being able to feel the "inlays". Have you felt a Meucci lately?

CaptainHook
12-25-2006, 09:49 PM
Kaiser is imported and distributed by J&J. Not related to Viking.

Thanx for the info. The Kaisers use that Quick release joint, so I thought maybe Viking was making them and private labeling them for J&J under the Kaiser name.

The only other cue I had ever seen that type of joint on was a Viking.:)

Gerald
12-25-2006, 11:04 PM
I have never been to China. However, I speak with my wifes cousin who is a dentist in Heidlberg area of Germany monthly. He just returned from a couple of weeks in China and he was awed by what he saw. The construction that Jay mentioned astounded him. Maps that were only 2 yrs old would be completely outdated. At the same time he was distressed at the enviromental damage he saw daily in the countryside. Strangely enough as large as China is the country has very limited natural resources. The denuding of the rural areas causes massive dust storms that are felt globally. Here in So. Calif the meterologists detect almost daily particles in the air that are directly attributable to China. China's massive growth along with India's are going to change our world as we know it. "Chindia" is the word of our future.

ratcues
12-26-2006, 09:10 AM
Wow, this post got way off track. The original question asked about the quality of Chinese-made cues. Politics, environment, etc, aside, anytime you mass produce a cue, quality suffers no matter where the cue is made. Do not read too far into that statement.... There are several quality manufacturers out there.

There is something special that goes into a cue that only the cuemaker can give. We "listen" to the cue, from start to finish. We hand select every aspect of that particular cue. Its a labor of love, and we love cues. It is not a job. It is a passion. You cannot get that off of an assembly line.

If cost is a concern, there are plenty of good cuemakers that can make cues for under $1000. Request it and they will come.....

rackem
12-26-2006, 01:42 PM
Wow, this post got way off track. The original question asked about the quality of Chinese-made cues. Politics, environment, etc, aside, anytime you mass produce a cue, quality suffers no matter where the cue is made. Do not read too far into that statement.... There are several quality manufacturers out there.

There is something special that goes into a cue that only the cuemaker can give. We "listen" to the cue, from start to finish. We hand select every aspect of that particular cue. Its a labor of love, and we love cues. It is not a job. It is a passion. You cannot get that off of an assembly line.

If cost is a concern, there are plenty of good cuemakers that can make cues for under $1000. Request it and they will come.....

To bring the thread back on target, Yes, there are plenty of junky cues that are being made in China. I don't sell them. However, there are some pretty decent ones I do sell. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=49788
Just as there is a selection process in Custom Cue building, There is also a wood and materials selection process involved with Importing Production Cues. The Labor of love comes when I am Hand Selecting the finest examples of what's available for my personal customers who are looking to spend under $100.:D

Gerald
12-26-2006, 11:32 PM
I just got a cue from JoeyInCalif last week for under a 1000 and it hits better than the Tad I recently sold. In fairness thou ghthe Tad didn't have the original shafts. I know the effort that went into my new cue and the diligence in selecting and aging the wood.

In a country of 1.3 billion it is crazy to think that there is not great quality in every type of product being made there as well as dreck. There is also a difference in production cues, that some are talking about, and limited custom cues that others are talking about.

Since there seems to be several Az members living there I was wondering if most of China's wood used in their manufacturing was coming from this continent?

ratcues
12-27-2006, 06:24 AM
Since there seems to be several Az members living there I was wondering if most of China's wood used in their manufacturing was coming from this continent?

That's one reason that the cost of shaft wood has gone through the roof. Most of it is being sent overseas.

DaveK
12-27-2006, 09:05 AM
That's one reason that the cost of shaft wood has gone through the roof. Most of it is being sent overseas.

We Canadians are proud of our maples ... heck, it's our national tree and it's leaf adorns our flag ... but we certainly do not have the maple tree to ourselves. It is the State tree of four states :Vermont, New York, Wisconsin, and West Virginia. While the 'Hard Rock' maple / sugar maple (Acer saccharum) is commonly used for shafts, there are many many species of maples, and a lot of them are native to China. I understand that Acer saccharum is about the hardest and strongest of the maples (and makes very tasty syrop), but are there not some Chinese maples that would have reasonable pool shaft qualities ? We may be running short of syrop down the road. :(

Dave