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mnsneakypete
01-25-2015, 02:08 PM
Jewett's interference ball shot system (described in Byrne's book, among others) describes how to shoot through a ball frozen to the cue ball.

Is this a legal shot or am I going to have VNEA league players go ape on me and call a foul if I use this?

At what point is it illegal? IOW, if I hit STRAIGHT into a frozen combination (i.e., shooting the object ball straight toward the side pocket in the picture below) that WOULD be a foul, correct?

Any VNEA referees on here? Thanks!

372011

Donny Lutz
01-28-2015, 06:59 AM
Jewett's interference ball shot system (described in Byrne's book, among others) describes how to shoot through a ball frozen to the cue ball.

Is this a legal shot or am I going to have VNEA league players go ape on me and call a foul if I use this?

At what point is it illegal? IOW, if I hit STRAIGHT into a frozen combination (i.e., shooting the object ball straight toward the side pocket in the picture below) that WOULD be a foul, correct?

Any VNEA referees on here? Thanks!

372011

Bob Jewett would not instruct you to shoot an illegal shot.

Shooting through frozen balls as you describe is a foul only if you begin your stroke in contact with the cue ball, and literally push the cue slowly through the balls so that the tip remains in contact during the stroke. Think of it like the difference between "hitting" a car in an accident and pushing a car to get it started.

Confusion arises when people call a double hit foul a "push". A double hit can occur when the cue ball and the object ball are close together but not frozen. It simply means that the cue tip strikes the cue ball twice.

There is also confusion because a "push" (which is more properly called a "push out") is a tactical maneuver in 9-ball and some rules of 8-ball and other games. If players would say "push out" instead of "push" it would reduce the confusion.

Any good instructor can easily explain and demonstrate the difference between an illegal "push" and a double hit foul. They can show you how to predict and call the double hit foul. and how to avoid the DHF in several ways. You can also find it on Youtube and in countless books.

It's confusing only until you see it demonstrated and explained. When I used to organize and direct leagues, I made it a point to explain these things to all team captains, and even give them all a written explanation. It prevented a lot of unnecessary arguments.

DogsPlayingPool
01-28-2015, 10:30 AM
Unless VNEA has an odd rule about this, it should be legal to hit through the cue ball normally when it is frozen to the object ball because there is no double hit foul.

Before hitting the shot you should declare the balls frozen to your opponent to give him an opportunity to look at it and call a ref if he disagrees.

mnsneakypete
01-28-2015, 06:18 PM
Thank you.

tatcat2000
01-28-2015, 08:23 PM
I am not a VNEA ref, so I do not offer an opinion. However, for strictly informational purposes, this is from the VNEA rules verbatim:

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called. (Emphasis added.)

You may draw your own conclusion.

DogsPlayingPool
01-29-2015, 02:50 AM
I am not a VNEA ref, so I do not offer an opinion. However, for strictly informational purposes, this is from the VNEA rules verbatim:

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called. (Emphasis added.)

You may draw your own conclusion.

The conclusion I draw is they got the rule wrong, or at a minimum left out the word "NOT" before the word "frozen".

hang-the-9
01-29-2015, 11:14 AM
Jewett's interference ball shot system (described in Byrne's book, among others) describes how to shoot through a ball frozen to the cue ball.

Is this a legal shot or am I going to have VNEA league players go ape on me and call a foul if I use this?

At what point is it illegal? IOW, if I hit STRAIGHT into a frozen combination (i.e., shooting the object ball straight toward the side pocket in the picture below) that WOULD be a foul, correct?

Any VNEA referees on here? Thanks!

372011

The way the shot is shown, it's legal. Basically if your tip is going at an angle away from the contact points, you can make a good legal shot. Don't know exactly which angle would stop being a likely foul, I'd say 45% like in the picture you show.

Donny Lutz
01-31-2015, 10:13 AM
Bob Jewett would not instruct you to shoot an illegal shot.

Shooting through frozen balls as you describe is a foul only if you begin your stroke in contact with the cue ball, and literally push the cue slowly through the balls so that the tip remains in contact during the stroke. Think of it like the difference between "hitting" a car in an accident and pushing a car to get it started.

Confusion arises when people call a double hit foul a "push". A double hit can occur when the cue ball and the object ball are close together but not frozen. It simply means that the cue tip strikes the cue ball twice.

There is also confusion because a "push" (which is more properly called a "push out") is a tactical maneuver in 9-ball and some rules of 8-ball and other games. If players would say "push out" instead of "push" it would reduce the confusion.

Any good instructor can easily explain and demonstrate the difference between an illegal "push" and a double hit foul. They can show you how to predict and call the double hit foul. and how to avoid the DHF in several ways. You can also find it on Youtube and in countless books.

It's confusing only until you see it demonstrated and explained. When I used to organize and direct leagues, I made it a point to explain these things to all team captains, and even give them all a written explanation. It prevented a lot of unnecessary arguments.

I just can't resist telling a story that "frozen balls" reminds me of.

While returning home on a road trip to Key West with Billy Steele in '76, we got caught in a wind blizzard in Matoon, Illinois. It wasn't snowing, but the foot of snow cover on the ground was blown into fifteen foot drifts by 50 miles per hour winds. According to the 12-inch black and white tv in our motel room, the wind chill briefly reached -90 degrees! We were stranded there for two days. It was so cold that our gallon water jugs froze on the floor of that motel room!

The interstate was completely shut down, but on the second day there we located two pool halls nearby. One was a legendary kind of old place that was very cool, but no action at that time. The other was a rickety aluminum building with concrete floors that had one 9-foot pocket table, a 9-foot billiard table and a soda fountain. Billy managed to steal a hundred bucks playing 9-ball on the pocket table...which had NO cloth on the rails, and cloth so worn on the surface you could see through it!

Before we left I beat Billy in a game to 20 on the billiard table. One of the very few times I ever beat him at any game during the decade or so I got to hang out with him.

Ccarroll
02-01-2015, 03:20 PM
I am not a VNEA ref, so I do not offer an opinion. However, for strictly informational purposes, this is from the VNEA rules verbatim:

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called. (Emphasis added.)

You may draw your own conclusion.

That rule explains it pretty clearly........