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SamLambert
10-30-2015, 08:07 AM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!

Thanks!

BeiberLvr
10-30-2015, 08:09 AM
I use google

SamLambert
10-30-2015, 08:12 AM
I use google


Thanks for your helpful and very insightful input.

one stroke
10-30-2015, 08:12 AM
You scroll down to the aiming section of AZB



1

RobMan
10-30-2015, 08:12 AM
Lots and lots of "systems" certainly. Lots of feel needed to adjust regardless due to table conditions, humidity, speed, english, etc. etc.

I think Tor's Zero-X DVD on kicking is a super value ==> http://www.zerox-billiards.com/ Lots of great information. Definitely improved my kicking skills.

skins
10-30-2015, 08:19 AM
Thanks for your helpful and very insightful input.

It WAS insightful and VERY helpful.. You should stop wasting your time asking all these questions here and just do the research... It's out there.. Google is a wonderful tool if you just USE IT... I hope this helps.. Happy hitting!

SamLambert
10-30-2015, 08:23 AM
It WAS insightful and VERY helpful.. You should stop wasting your time asking all these questions here and just do the research... It's out there.. Google is a wonderful tool if you just USE IT... I hope this helps.. Happy hitting!


You are very much off track about my intentions with this thread.

The question is not “what kicking/banking system is the best” or “which one should I use”.

It is a simple “what do you use/prefer and why”.

But sorry I guess! How dare I try to get the opinion of the other members for discussion on a discussion board!

Zphix
10-30-2015, 08:26 AM
Never learned a system for banking except for a rough diamond system when I was first playing. I could always see bank shots though - can't offer a resource on banking.

As for kicking, by far, the best thing I've gotten is Tor Lowry/Zero-X kicking. He covers 1, 2, and 3 rail kicks and makes them easy. There's also a PDF available of DeadAims Kicking Academy where he covers the SID system, spot on the wall, basic diamond system, multiplication system, etc. Tons of nuggets in that PDF.

Eventually, you kick and bank so much that you start to not rely on the numbers.

Anyway, get the zero-x kicking video.

BeiberLvr
10-30-2015, 08:27 AM
You are very much off track about my intentions with this thread.

The question is not “what kicking/banking system is the best” or “which one should I use”.

It is a simple “what do you use/prefer and why”.

But sorry I guess! How dare I try to get the opinion of the other members for discussion on a discussion board!

Preferences are subjective.

So in actuality if you're asking which kicking system someone uses, then you're asking which is the best (according to them).

You need to step up your troll game.

336Robin
10-30-2015, 08:29 AM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!

Thanks!

Somewhere there I think in one of the Byrne Books there is a standard line drawing method that was used to figure banks. I discovered that it works on a lot of Passover Banks and with a little tweaking found it works for more banks that I originally thought only I make some slight changes to it for my stroke. Maybe someone here has a diagram of it.

Colonel
10-30-2015, 08:30 AM
Pure instinct

336Robin
10-30-2015, 08:30 AM
Never learned a system for banking except for a rough diamond system when I was first playing. I could always see bank shots though - can't offer a resource on banking.

As for kicking, by far, the best thing I've gotten is Tor Lowry/Zero-X kicking. He covers 1, 2, and 3 rail kicks and makes them easy. There's also a PDF available of DeadAims Kicking Academy where he covers the SID system, spot on the wall, basic diamond system, multiplication system, etc. Tons of nuggets in that PDF.

Eventually, you kick and bank so much that you start to not rely on the numbers.

Anyway, get the zero-x kicking video.

I have heard the same and intend to get the download myself. I was told by a friend if I wasn't happy he would pay for it. So that says a lot.

skins
10-30-2015, 08:33 AM
You are very much off track about my intentions with this thread.

The question is not “what kicking/banking system is the best” or “which one should I use”.

It is a simple “what do you use/prefer and why”.

But sorry I guess! How dare I try to get the opinion of the other members for discussion on a discussion board!

Sam,

I am not off track at all... Aiming bank shots is not as "personal" as you may think... If you're trying to find out what OTHER people do you're asking the wrong question... Who cares.. It doesn't matter.. Banking shots is FINITE. Either you learn to bank or you don't... Anyone who wants to learn how to bank needs only to follow the basic methods which happen to be discussed ALL OVER THE INTERNET, hit tons of balls, and if possible watch some great bank players... The rest of the conversation is pointless...

ideologist
10-30-2015, 08:35 AM
Pure instinct

This is the best answer. Shoot a kick. See how you missed. Adjust accordingly.

Understand how the spin in the ball reacts off the cloth or changes the object ball.

It takes lots of misses to get comfortable with them.

Hit A Million Banks

ghost ball
10-30-2015, 08:37 AM
It WAS insightful and VERY helpful.. You should stop wasting your time asking all these questions here and just do the research... It's out there.. Google is a wonderful tool if you just USE IT... I hope this helps.. Happy hitting!

Interpretation; You are not supposed to ask pool related questions in this pool forum. That is the job of Google. :rolleyes:

philly
10-30-2015, 08:47 AM
Pure instinct

I am a feel player. After hitting a million balls I'm getting closer to my goal. I am one of those guys that doesn't absorb knowledge from a book. I learn by doing. My advice is practice banks and kicks to get a feel for it. Make sure you use different types of english on your banks because it will alter the angle of the object ball. Sorry but I think you still have to hit a million balls.

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 08:48 AM
The simplest method I know for one-rail banks/kicks is what I call "banking/kicking lanes" - easily visualized equal-angle "reference" tracks using the diamonds. Simply imagine the reference tracks on either side of the ball you want to kick/bank, then estimate where your actual shot must go.

Here's a pic to illustrate (see next post to see how to adjust for friction effects with a rolling ball).

pj
chgo

19833

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 08:49 AM
The most common adjustment you'll make when using equal-angle reference tracks is to aim a little short to compensate for a rolling ball's natural tendency to curve long as it rebounds from the rail. Fortunately, it's also pretty easy - just aim at the diamond on the rail rather than the cushion nose (may differ slightly on different tables).

Here's a pic illustrating those adjustments.

pj
chgo

20230

skins
10-30-2015, 08:50 AM
Interpretation; You are not supposed to ask pool related questions in this pool forum. That is the job of Google. :rolleyes:

Now when Sam said "off track" I think he meant you... Sam asks a lot of questions and IMO wastes time on these forums instead of doing a little research and putting that research to table time... His question was aimed at personal preferences and when it comes to banks and kicks it's more of an exact science than ones personal "method"... So YES you are not supposed to ask related questions when the question has been asked, answered, and available at anyones beck and call ALL over the Internet... :rolleyes: right back at ya

O'SulliReyes
10-30-2015, 08:52 AM
Hit a million banks and kicks. Trial and error. Then and only then can you eliminate the need for these so-called systems and depend on the 'instinct' you developed from hours of practice. No shortcuts.

1. Set up a bank shot and execute it. After the shot, keep your head still as much as possible to get feedback on how the shot went and adjust accordingly.
2. You may want to develop a cue action/stroke that is rhythmic and matches your natural tempo. Most of the time knowing the proper angle for the shot is not enough--having a good timing would allow you to hit the ball sweetly. That's why Bustamante's rhythmic stroke enables him to make a bank with both precision and power.
3. You may want to try your hand at 3-cushion. That's how Efren became so proficient in kicking. FYI, Efren was an exceptional 3C player back in the 70s/80s. It certainly served him well in later years.

billiardthought
10-30-2015, 08:52 AM
I start by lining up my internet browser - I mean shot. I aim straight for AZB - I mean the rail. Then I measure up a good post - I mean angle. I account for the CTE discussion - I mean rebound angle. Then I fire away at the post - I mean bank.

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 08:57 AM
Hit a million banks and kicks. Trial and error. Then and only then can you eliminate the need for these so-called systems and depend on the 'instinct' you developed from hours of practice. No shortcuts.
Actually, systems are shortcuts. With them you might only need to hit a half million banks and kicks before "internalizing" the estimations.

pj
chgo

Texas Carom Club
10-30-2015, 08:59 AM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!

Thanks!


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=406611

philly
10-30-2015, 09:00 AM
Hit a million banks and kicks. Trial and error. Then and only then can you eliminate the need for these so-called systems and depend on the 'instinct' you developed from hours of practice. No shortcuts.

1. Set up a bank shot and execute it. After the shot, keep your head still as much as possible to get feedback on how the shot went and adjust accordingly.
2. You may want to develop a cue action/stroke that is rhythmic and matches your natural tempo. Most of the time knowing the proper angle for the shot is not enough--having a good timing would allow you to hit the ball sweetly. That's why Bustamante is so good at banks.
3. You may want to try your hand at 3-cushion. That's how Efren became so proficient in kicking. FYI, Efren was an exceptional 3C player back in the 70s/80s. It certainly served him well in later years.

3 cushion is an excellent idea. I often spend a half hour or 45 minutes on a 3 cushion table before a big 9 ball match. It helps my kicking game and confidence in my kicks immensely.

skins
10-30-2015, 09:01 AM
I start by lining up my internet browser - I mean shot. I aim straight for AZB - I mean the rail. Then I measure up a good post - I mean angle. I account for the CTE discussion - I mean rebound angle. Then I fire away at the post - I mean bank.

Now that's funny... :grin:

Texas Carom Club
10-30-2015, 09:02 AM
everyone should play more 3c and straight rail period!

bbb
10-30-2015, 09:05 AM
billiard systems

336Robin
10-30-2015, 09:07 AM
I walk up on any shot I intend to bank by lining up the cue ball through the object ball and noting the coming out of number on the rail through where the directly banked ball will land on the opposite rail.

That way I can reason out a solution by knowing how the bank lays.

For instance if a bank is.....2 diamonds through .50 diamond on the far rail I know all I have to do is muscle the bank with stroke. Were I playing one pocket I would shoot slower and hit the bank with inside.

Knowing where the bank lays will determine what can be done to it to make it score.

(((Satori)))
10-30-2015, 09:08 AM
Thread is fixing to explode in 3...2...

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 09:10 AM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!

Thanks!

CTE covers banks shots. Please don't tell me what to say when answering your public query.

That said I use double the distance method for kick shots, bank shots, and safety play.

Precision Aiming in Safety Play. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbjl_8wtcS8)

This method is very strong and it works very very well. It is an estimation method but once you practice you can get some consistently good results.

one stroke
10-30-2015, 09:16 AM
Thread is fixing to explode in 3...2...

And boom there it goes


1

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 09:24 AM
Hit a million banks and kicks. Trial and error. Then and only then can you eliminate the need for these so-called systems and depend on the 'instinct' you developed from hours of practice. No shortcuts.

1. Set up a bank shot and execute it. After the shot, keep your head still as much as possible to get feedback on how the shot went and adjust accordingly.


A good system gives you baseline accurate lines to use and THEN you use your pool sense to adjust IF needed.

I have seen Tom Rossman teach C players how to kick and bank well above their pay grade in less than 20 minutes. And if anyone doesn't believe me we can bet the farm and I will pay Tom to prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY4NW4oytR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D32HFI1ushc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqyYQMDmcZg&list=PLdCfnbGD70QV8sUqkF1AsPD2iWPfzO-uV

All you need to know about kicking and banking systems is on you tube. Cuts down the trial-and-error "million balls" way to learn CONSIDERABLY.

SamLambert
10-30-2015, 09:29 AM
CTE covers banks shots. Please don't tell me what to say when answering your public query.

That said I use double the distance method for kick shots, bank shots, and safety play.

Precision Aiming in Safety Play. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbjl_8wtcS8)

This method is very strong and it works very very well. It is an estimation method but once you practice you can get some consistently good results.

Your double the distance method looks a lot like what I've seen Dr. Dave call the mirror method. It does seem to be a very good method!

I will give it a good try this evening.

Thanks for your input.

Icon of Sin
10-30-2015, 09:33 AM
You are very much off track about my intentions with this thread.

The question is not “what kicking/banking system is the best” or “which one should I use”.

It is a simple “what do you use/prefer and why”.

But sorry I guess! How dare I try to get the opinion of the other members for discussion on a discussion board!

How dare you not use the search feature of said discussion board. This has been discussed multiple times over the years.

Zphix
10-30-2015, 09:37 AM
The simplest method I know for one-rail banks/kicks is what I call "banking/kicking lanes" - easily visualized equal-angle "reference" tracks using the diamonds. Simply imagine the reference tracks on either side of the ball you want to kick/bank, then estimate where your actual shot must go.

Here's a pic to illustrate (see next post to see how to adjust for friction effects with a rolling ball).

pj
chgo

19833

After banking and kicking a ton this is really where most players end up. I'm certainly at this point with bank shots, and most of the time with kick shots as well. Although, instead of imagining the lines it becomes an intuitive glance.

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 09:45 AM
Precision banking.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSKV5CK_fziWAuk8e29jRdYl_LGP4tDcV

dr_dave
10-30-2015, 09:48 AM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!Different types of kick and bank shots require different aiming systems. There is no single system that works well for a wide range of kicks and bank of different types. All of the commonly-used systems for aiming all sorts of kicks and banks are documented here:

bank and kick shot aiming systems resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html).

Also, all bank and kick shot aiming systems require aim compensation based on shot speed, angle, spin, distance, and conditions. FYI, all of the effects that need to taken into consideration (either consciously or intuitively) can be found here:

bank and kick shot effects resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects)

If somebody claims they have a single "system" (with no intuition-based compensation) that can be used to accurately aim all types of kick and bank shots, they are lying to you.

I personally always try to use the system which is best for a particular type of shot. Top players who have countless years of dedicated practice and experience typically don't use systems ... they just aim by "feel" based on their trusted experience-based intuition.

Regards,
Dave

ceebee
10-30-2015, 09:51 AM
Go see Tor Lowry & Manning Cues on YouTube...

Jaden
10-30-2015, 09:54 AM
Here's a link to one of the threads I created on banking kicking accurately...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=369861

It covers one of the biggest mistakes people make trying to kick and bank and why a lot of people think you have to go off of intuition...

That being said, banking and kicking are the shots in pool that require the greatest amount of feel due to greater variance of speed and spin, so any system will just be a starting point.

Jaden

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 09:57 AM
Your double the distance method looks a lot like what I've seen Dr. Dave call the mirror method.
That's exactly what it is. Doubling the distance is another way to visualize the mirror image of your target. (So is the "spot on the wall" method.)

Keep in mind that all of these methods need adjustments for the friction effect of the ball hitting the rail (with or without sidespin).

pj
chgo

JoeyInCali
10-30-2015, 10:01 AM
Go see Tor Lowry & Manning Cues on YouTube...

Tor might be the best instructor today.

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 10:04 AM
Tor might be the best instructor today.

He definitely has a very slick production. I haven't seen anything that he has done that I don't like.

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 10:10 AM
Thread is fixing to explode in 3...2...

You were right & with a perfect countdown.

Rico
10-30-2015, 10:10 AM
Dont take offense to the doggers on here, I would just say take a look at the Zero x free download and consider those dvds no one has made kicking and banking easier to understand. RESPECTFULLY Rico

Skippy27
10-30-2015, 10:22 AM
Sam,

I am not off track at all... Aiming bank shots is not as "personal" as you may think... If you're trying to find out what OTHER people do you're asking the wrong question... Who cares.. It doesn't matter.. Banking shots is FINITE. Either you learn to bank or you don't... Anyone who wants to learn how to bank needs only to follow the basic methods which happen to be discussed ALL OVER THE INTERNET, hit tons of balls, and if possible watch some great bank players... The rest of the conversation is pointless...

I always love when the elitist chime in.

Everyone needs to start somewhere and starting with a good foundation is better then just winging it.

You will learn a lot more and a lot quicker having someone guide you than you will sitting at the table trying to figure this stuff out yourself. Eventually you will learn it on your own by winging it, but why not have some one that has been there and done that teach you in a 1 hour video or short explanation than you spending days at the table trying to figure it out for yourself.

I personally would recommend Tor's stuff. I would also recommend Dr. Dave's material.

BRussell
10-30-2015, 10:32 AM
The most common adjustment you'll make when using equal-angle reference tracks is to aim a little short to compensate for a rolling ball's natural tendency to curve long as it rebounds from the rail. Fortunately, it's also pretty easy - just aim at the diamond on the rail rather than the cushion nose (may differ slightly on different tables).

Here's a pic illustrating those adjustments.

pj
chgo

20230

Interesting that your picture says from near rail gutter to far rail diamond, I've never seen that before. I've always thought about it as diamond to diamond (which would be even shorter than gutter to diamond).

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 10:56 AM
Interesting that your picture says from near rail gutter to far rail diamond, I've never seen that before. I've always thought about it as diamond to diamond (which would be even shorter than gutter to diamond).
Near gutter to far diamond is remarkably accurate for the tables I usually play on (Brunswicks with worn 860), but diamond to diamond might be better depending on your equipment (slicker cloth, for instance).

By the way, that adjustment is for a rolling ball with no side spin.

pj
chgo

Jaden
10-30-2015, 11:22 AM
Dont take offense to the doggers on here, I would just say take a look at the Zero x free download and consider those dvds no one has made kicking and banking easier to understand. RESPECTFULLY Rico

but i'll definitely make anyone with the inclination to get better at kicking and banking better at it...

jaden

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 11:41 AM
You were right & with a perfect countdown.

No he wasn't. The OP asked that it not become a CTE debate. And you're doing a remarkably good job of not turning it into one.

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 12:25 PM
No he wasn't. The OP asked that it not become a CTE debate. And you're doing a remarkably good job of not turning it into one.

Well... perhaps that's because you've not yet made any completely outrages claims.

Best Wishes.

PS I could critique some of the videos though, but this is certainly not the time nor place.

RiverCity
10-30-2015, 12:48 PM
Same angle in, same angle out. Then adjust from there.

Hope that helps! :thumbup:

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 12:55 PM
Well... perhaps that's because you've not yet made any completely outrages claims.

Best Wishes.

PS I could critique some of the videos though, but this is certainly not the time nor place.

I don't know what you would critique. All videos from anyone show is a person claiming to use a method, demonstrating themselves using that method and what the results are.

The viewer has the choice to try out the methods being demonstrated and see for themselves if they like them.

ctyhntr
10-30-2015, 01:10 PM
Banking with the Beard help me understand the use of speed and english in banking and kicking.

I usually use the mirror system for kicks and banks, and adopt a more upright stance to see the path.

SUPERSTAR
10-30-2015, 01:16 PM
How i bank.
Fire it at the rail.

See where it goes. Adjust.

Fire it at the rail again. (This time, with some confidence)

Voila

caff3in3
10-30-2015, 01:48 PM
Ignore the bitter folks and keep learning Sam.

I think most people go by feel but learning with a system to develop that feel can be helpful. For bank shots I used to picture a table twice as wide/long and aim for the far pocket.

Cheers,

Chris

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 02:16 PM
Ignore the bitter folks and keep learning Sam.

I think most people go by feel but learning with a system to develop that feel can be helpful. For bank shots I used to picture a table twice as wide/long and aim for the far pocket.

Cheers,

Chris

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that before.

Best Wishes.

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 02:20 PM
I don't know what you would critique. All videos from anyone show is a person claiming to use a method, demonstrating themselves using that method and what the results are.

The viewer has the choice to try out the methods being demonstrated and see for themselves if they like them.

Well John,

You provided some links to video that have no real explanation as to what exactly is being done.

So, I don't see how a viewer could even try them, but if they can figure out what was done & try them, then I guess you're correct.

Best Wishes.

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 02:33 PM
That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that before.

Best Wishes.

It's called double the distance or mirroring. Exactly what I described in my first post.

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 02:34 PM
Well John,

..........if they can figure out what was done & try them, then I guess you're correct.

Best Wishes.

Exactly, now you understand.

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 02:42 PM
It's called double the distance or mirroring. Exactly what I described in my first post.

John,

I know double the distance, etc. but I have not heard of visualizing a pocket out is space at which to 'aim' the OB, similar to the spot on the wall for 3 rail banks.

Best Wishes.

ENGLISH!
10-30-2015, 02:45 PM
Exactly, now you understand.

But John...

Sam is basically asking for 'help' in finding a good method or system.

I don't think he is asking for something that he has to figure out what's supposed to be going on.

Best Wishes.

caff3in3
10-30-2015, 02:46 PM
Sam - have you watched tor Lowrys videos yet? Another poster recommended them. Amazing stuff to be offered for free on YouTube. I would highly recommend watching if you haven't yet

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Texas Carom Club
10-30-2015, 04:04 PM
Sam - have you watched tor Lowrys videos yet? Another poster recommended them. Amazing stuff to be offered for free on YouTube. I would highly recommend watching if you haven't yet

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Hes got a few on yt but I haven't seen the really indepth ones

I posted the bugs ruckker that is the entire video on yt for free
Hope he looks at that one atleaste

Sloppy Pockets
10-30-2015, 04:37 PM
How do I aim banks?

SamLambert
10-30-2015, 04:44 PM
Sam - have you watched tor Lowrys videos yet? Another poster recommended them. Amazing stuff to be offered for free on YouTube. I would highly recommend watching if you haven't yet

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Haven’t watched them yet! At the pool hall trying stuff right now (Joe Tucker Racking Secrets!). Will watch them tonight for sure!

Patrick Johnson
10-30-2015, 05:13 PM
For bank shots I used to picture a table twice as wide/long and aim for the far pocket.
Visualizing mirror images of the table and balls is the basis for several banking/kicking methods - it works in theory (as a reference) for any number of rails. The pics below show how to visualize mirror image three-rail paths to the corner pocket (solid line = actual path; dotted line = mirror image path).

Of course the ball will rarely if ever follow the perfect equal-angle mirror path, but it can be a useful fixed reference for comparison and estimation.

pj
chgo

52854
52860

JB Cases
10-30-2015, 05:28 PM
But John...

Sam is basically asking for 'help' in finding a good method or system.

I don't think he is asking for something that he has to figure out what's supposed to be going on.

Best Wishes.

He got help. He can try all the systems presented and keep the ones he likes best. Some are more advanced than others and might be something he should try when he has advanced more as a player.

skins
10-31-2015, 01:14 AM
I always love when the elitist chime in.

Everyone needs to start somewhere and starting with a good foundation is better then just winging it.

You will learn a lot more and a lot quicker having someone guide you than you will sitting at the table trying to figure this stuff out yourself. Eventually you will learn it on your own by winging it, but why not have some one that has been there and done that teach you in a 1 hour video or short explanation than you spending days at the table trying to figure it out for yourself.

I personally would recommend Tor's stuff. I would also recommend Dr. Dave's material.

Elitist! Thanks for the complement! Lets test out just how "Elite" and play some banks... I got ALL my info from being at the table playing and watching and asking... THAT'S WHERE YOU USED TO HAVE TO START.. NOT ANY MORE.. ALL of that same info is ALL over the web... I'm ready when you are..:)

caff3in3
10-31-2015, 02:43 AM
Hes got a few on yt but I haven't seen the really indepth ones

I posted the bugs ruckker that is the entire video on yt for free
Hope he looks at that one atleaste
Tor has an advanced secrets video on there. It is about 3 hrs long and we'll worth a watch

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

bdorman
10-31-2015, 05:55 AM
For bank shots I use Tor Lowery's Zero-X method and now feel quite confident in shooting a bank shot. However, I haven't spent enough time with his kicking method to be able to perform it in a reasonable amount of time during a match, so I mostly go by feel.

For two-rail kicks I use the simple "shoot the angle to the corner pocket from the center of the distance between the OB and the CB." Like all good methods, after a while you can instinctively see the "lines" on the table and have confidence that you'll hit the ball. Three-rail kicks are just an extension of that method.

I should spend more time learning the Zero-X two and three-rail kicking method...but there are a lot of things I should spend more time on.

PS -- If you don't think the OP's question is legitimate, then move on to another thread. What is accomplished by berating the OP? I don't give a hoot who anyone thinks will win the U.S Open, but I don't troll those threads telling them that.

336Robin
10-31-2015, 06:18 AM
PJ,
Nice post. I usually do fairly well with my cue ball path estimation but that came in time, had I known this visualization, Im sure it would have come sooner. Nice post.



Visualizing mirror images of the table and balls is the basis for several banking/kicking methods - it works in theory (as a reference) for any number of rails. The pics below show how to visualize mirror image three-rail paths to the corner pocket (solid line = actual path; dotted line = mirror image path).

Of course the ball will rarely if ever follow the perfect equal-angle mirror path, but it can be a useful fixed reference for comparison and estimation.

pj
chgo

52854
52860

Dunnn51
10-31-2015, 08:30 AM
I used to shoot with a guy that used that invisible mirror pool table to calculate banks. TBH , he made quite a few so I guess it worked for him.
I never thought it practical since I played yrs ago on tables that were shoe-horned into the corner of a bar . You were lucky to get stroke on a rail shot let alone "mirror" a fake 2nd pool table.

At any rate: Tor's stuff is golden, its akin to what the PRO's use. My dad taught me "the diamond system" (his way) lol. Took me a year to remember it when I came back to the game. Pretty fool-proof b/c it teaches you when to use speed, and when not to. Also you learn the importance of angles.

Again, Tor's vids are the closest I have seen to it; I just don't have to use my cue-stick.

CJ puts out a good banking vid too, more about the fundies than his TOI.

The BEST bank system is the one that works best for YOU, and is easiest to understand.

Good luck! :thumbup:

Patrick Johnson
10-31-2015, 09:08 AM
I used to shoot with a guy that used that invisible mirror pool table to calculate banks. TBH , he made quite a few so I guess it worked for him.
I never thought it practical since I played yrs ago on tables that were shoe-horned into the corner of a bar.
You can visualize a mirror image table even if there's no physical room for it - just takes a little imagination. But it's not for everybody or every situation - I only use it on certain kinds of shots, sometimes only as a "second opinion".

pj
chgo

Texas Carom Club
10-31-2015, 10:04 AM
i also look at multiple sources, i may not get a handle of what one person is teaching, but seeing different things different people are saying is good for me

ceebee
10-31-2015, 10:11 AM
I also got a real kick out of watching & learning from Freddy the Beard.. his book once learned, along with his video too & you'll be banking them balls in right nicely...

Learning banks is fun, but learning also has to be massaged by applying the modifications needed to make the bank that is slight off track.

Banks
10-31-2015, 10:18 AM
I also got a real kick out of watching & learning from Freddy the Beard.. his book once learned, along with his video too & you'll be banking them balls in right nicely...

Learning banks is fun, but learning also has to be massaged by applying the modifications needed to make the bank that is slight off track.

That's pretty much what i do now. I have a general firm hit for many banks and make minor angle or english adjustments depending on what i need to do. Same with hitting softer or firing them in.

JB Cases
10-31-2015, 12:08 PM
Hes got a few on yt but I haven't seen the really indepth ones

I posted the bugs ruckker that is the entire video on yt for free
Hope he looks at that one atleaste

The Bugs Rucker one is great. I have used his techniques many times.

JB Cases
10-31-2015, 12:10 PM
Now when Sam said "off track" I think he meant you... Sam asks a lot of questions and IMO wastes time on these forums instead of doing a little research and putting that research to table time... His question was aimed at personal preferences and when it comes to banks and kicks it's more of an exact science than ones personal "method"... So YES you are not supposed to ask related questions when the question has been asked, answered, and available at anyones beck and call ALL over the Internet... :rolleyes: right back at ya

I don't think it's a bad thing to ask general questions. It leads to people sharing the resources that they like best and also instigates discussion.

dr_dave
10-31-2015, 12:41 PM
The Bugs Rucker one is great. I have used his techniques many times.Could you describe it here, or provide a link?

I don't think I know that one.

Thanks,
Dave

Patrick Johnson
10-31-2015, 01:02 PM
I'm a little surprised that John Brumback hasn't been mentioned yet. Probably worth checking out - here's a YouTube preview of his banking DVD:

Bank Pool Secrets of a World Champion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk)

Here's where you can get it:

JohnBrumback.com (http://www.new2youqs.com/cues/John%20Brumback.html)

pj
chgo

Ron Swanson
10-31-2015, 02:09 PM
Actually, systems are shortcuts. With them you might only need to hit a half million banks and kicks before "internalizing" the estimations.

pj
chgo

You've been got at.

Texas Carom Club
10-31-2015, 02:35 PM
Could you describe it here, or provide a link?

I don't think I know that one.

Thanks,
Dave

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=BAlRHRJidaM

JohnnyQball
10-31-2015, 10:05 PM
I basically use the angle of reflection as a reference point. (equal and opposite) I aim wide if my object ball is stunning when it hits the rail & narrow if my object ball is rolling when it hits the rail. How much depends on a lot of things but mostly feel developed through a lot of experience.

Dunnn51
11-01-2015, 07:21 AM
Visualizing mirror images of the table and balls is the basis for several banking/kicking methods - it works in theory (as a reference) for any number of rails. The pics below show how to visualize mirror image three-rail paths to the corner pocket (solid line = actual path; dotted line = mirror image path).

Of course the ball will rarely if ever follow the perfect equal-angle mirror path, but it can be a useful fixed reference for comparison and estimation.

pj
chgo




http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=400748&stc=1&d=1446252854


PJ, there is like 6 pool tables here;you are using 5 of them. Does the shooter have to drink to see all of these tables ?? :eek:

John Brumback
11-01-2015, 07:26 AM
I'm a little surprised that John Brumback hasn't been mentioned yet. Probably worth checking out - here's a YouTube preview of his banking DVD:

Bank Pool Secrets of a World Champion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk)

Here's where you can get it:

JohnBrumback.com (http://www.new2youqs.com/cues/John%20Brumback.html)

pj
chgo

Thanks Patrick !! John B.

JB Cases
11-03-2015, 09:08 AM
Could you describe it here, or provide a link?

I don't think I know that one.

Thanks,
Dave
Bugs advocated changing the angle on unnatural banks to avoid kisses or create the right angle by using tips of sidespin....as in two tips low right for example.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Zphix
11-03-2015, 09:18 AM
Bugs advocated changing the angle on unnatural banks to avoid kisses or create the right angle by using tips of sidespin....as in two tips low right for example.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

This is what I do on bank shots.

I check to see what line it is closest too and then use English/stroke speed to pocket the ball.

Of course, I'm assuming that unnatural means a ball not lying directly on a tract line (like 4 to 2, 3 to 1.5, etc.). Am I correct in this thinking JB?

-Richard

JB Cases
11-03-2015, 09:24 AM
This is what I do on bank shots.

I check to see what line it is closest too and then use English/stroke speed to pocket the ball.

Of course, I'm assuming that unnatural means a ball not lying directly on a tract line (like 4 to 2, 3 to 1.5, etc.). Am I correct in this thinking JB?

-Richard
Yes. You are correct. If the bank lays natural then you only need the right speed to avoid any roll off.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Heath Manning
02-14-2016, 07:40 AM
Go see Tor Lowry & Manning Cues on YouTube...

Hi Sam,

I have some advance kicking videos free on my website manningcues.com
These videos show 1, 2, 3 & 4 rail kicks.
The same system used for kicking can be implemented into banking to determine the object balls track line to the pocket.
Feel free to call me anytime to discuss in detail. I hope this helps :)

Here is a link to a few of the videos:

https://manningcues.com/store/Track-Lines-Full-Table.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Track-Lines-Half-Table.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Track-Lines-Side-Pocket.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Advanced-One-Rail-Kicks-Part-1.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Advanced-One-Rail-Kicks-Part-2.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Advanced-One-Rail-Kicks-Part-3.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Advanced-One-Rail-Kicks-Part-4.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Two-Rail-Kick-Shots.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Three-Rail-Kick-Shots.html

https://manningcues.com/store/Four-Rail-Kick-Shots.html

HawaiianEye
02-14-2016, 11:07 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=400748&stc=1&d=1446252854


PJ, there is like 6 pool tables here;you are using 5 of them. Does the shooter have to drink to see all of these tables ?? :eek:

That is the banger method!

If you hit it hard enough it will go into a pocket on one of the tables. Go to any league night and you will be able to see it in action.

And usually the players have had enough "aiming oil" to see at least one of the tables, if they haven't knocked all the lights out with the balls flying around.

Angle in equals angle out, with adjustments being made through speed, spin, etc., etc.

It may take some people hitting a million balls, but I learned to beat tons of guys by hitting quite a few balls less.

Asking questions and reading isn't going to hurt your game, it will only improve it. Don't let the naysayers on here dissuade you.

Aloha and the best of games to you

cubswin
02-14-2016, 11:14 AM
I just look, aim where I want it to go, and then shoot it. I don't bank much because I'd rather cut a ball, and the bar table rails often suck.

Halfjack87
02-14-2016, 12:38 PM
I use this system, because it's on the piece of paper I have and it makes sense to me: :wink:

randyg
02-14-2016, 12:41 PM
There are three methods of aiming a Bank shot.
1. Diamonds
2. Object Ball.
3. Cue Ball.

I use my Cue Ball on 99% of the Banks (AKA) Bugs.

randyg

bbb
02-14-2016, 06:43 PM
I am aware that CTE and other aiming systems might cover these shots, but please refrain from starting a debate about CTE.

I have been reading about bank & kick shots today and the systems that are commonly used for them. I was wondering if there was a major tendancy toward one in particular. This thread is mostly for the purpose of seeing what people prefer and also why.

If you only have one system that seems to work well for you, or if you chose a system depending on the shot in particular, feel free to explain your reasoning, I would really love some experienced feedback on the subject!

Thanks!

sam
its been 3 months
which system did you choose and why??
for the record i did NOT read the whole thread

pool101
02-14-2016, 07:05 PM
Little Joe has 2 very good Kicking DVDs, John Brumback's first DVD has Banking methods that are used by the best bankers in the world.

Mark

nateobot
02-14-2016, 07:30 PM
Banking with the beard and zero-x are good starting spots. After that just takes a lot of practice implementing and remembering the systems.

SamLambert
02-14-2016, 09:00 PM
sam
its been 3 months
which system did you choose and why??
for the record i did NOT read the whole thread

I did not put much effort into banking and kicking in the last months.

Mostly because I have so much more important things to work on and the mirror method works good enough for me right now.

Once I get to a better level on other points of my game, I will put more time into kicking and banking. Heath Manning sent me some nice links, I'll watch them later and see if I can incorporate quickly enough what is learnt from them without losing too much the focus of what I'm working on right now.

Sam

BmoreMoney
02-14-2016, 09:17 PM
I did not put much effort into banking and kicking in the last months.

Mostly because I have so much more important things to work on and the mirror method works good enough for me right now.

Once I get to a better level on other points of my game, I will put more time into kicking and banking. Heath Manning sent me some nice links, I'll watch them later and see if I can incorporate quickly enough what is learnt from them without losing too much the focus of what I'm working on right now.

Sam

Someone mentioned Freddy " The Beard " earlier in this thread. You haven't been here long enough to remember him but trust me he was an expert banker with tons of great road stories too! The others mentioned are also great, but me personally for my money the Beard would be at the top of that list for material. Also when you have extra time do a search on here of him as just about everything he posted was a great read worthy of your time. GL

SamLambert
02-14-2016, 09:20 PM
Someone mentioned Freddy " The Beard " earlier in this thread. You haven't been here long enough to remember him but trust me he was an expert banker with tons of great road stories too! The others mentioned are also great, but me personally for my money the Beard would be at the top of that list for material. Also when you have extra time do a search on here of him as just about everything he posted was a great read worthy of your time. GL


Thanks! I will look him up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ceebee
02-15-2016, 09:31 AM
Yes... Freddy the Beard, Tor Lowry, Manning Cues, Dr Dave

I would also try learn what the application of how side spin, draw & speed affect banking

Tennesseejoe
02-15-2016, 09:46 AM
There are three methods of aiming a Bank shot.
1. Diamonds
2. Object Ball.
3. Cue Ball.

I use my Cue Ball on 99% of the Banks (AKA) Bugs.

randyg

Randy, Will you explain the "Cue Ball" method, I have never heard of it. Thanks in advance.

Joe

ceebee
02-15-2016, 09:53 AM
Randy, Will you explain the "Cue Ball" method, I have never heard of it. Thanks in advance.

Joe

Randy didn't mention the cue either... or the eyes..maybe he's playing a different game.

Let's face it... we are here on the forum & there a million eyes trying to keep us in a straight line. Then we go & shoot a Masse'

Tennesseejoe
02-15-2016, 10:20 AM
Sam, you have received much good information re your post. Here is a method to consider for practice.

Take one of the illustrations in Patrick's post #18. Set it up using 3 ring paper hole protectors. One for the object ball and one for the cue ball. Practice shooting this shot repetitively using the same speed and English. When you make the shot consistently try varying either the speed, vertical English or horizontal English. This will give you an estimate variables.

The next step is to move the object ball close to the rail and repeat the process. You will find the object ball will rebound differently.

This should give you a fundamental base for the complicated world of banking.

randyg
02-15-2016, 01:37 PM
The cue ball method of banking is from Bugs Rucker.

Line up center-to-center and shift your cue tip accordingly.
Some shots require center-to-edge and shift.

randyg

HawaiianEye
02-15-2016, 03:36 PM
There are three methods of aiming a Bank shot.
1. Diamonds
2. Object Ball.
3. Cue Ball.

I use my Cue Ball on 99% of the Banks (AKA) Bugs.

randyg

Funny you mention Bugs and the cue ball method. I hadn't read your post until today and just yesterday I was explaining this to my playing partner and showing him a B/W video of Bugs banking that is on youtube.

I use a blend of several things (I think) because I've played for so long I think they are engrained into my memory.

HawaiianEye
02-15-2016, 03:38 PM
I use this system, because it's on the piece of paper I have and it makes sense to me: :wink:

I learned this system many years ago. With minor adjustments, it works very well...at least as a good reference point.

Johnboy73
02-16-2016, 09:36 AM
Manning Cues on Youtube is great. Tor Lowry's Zero-X Kicking and Banking is good too.

bbb
02-16-2016, 09:44 AM
I did not put much effort into banking and kicking in the last months.

Mostly because I have so much more important things to work on and the mirror method works good enough for me right now.

Once I get to a better level on other points of my game, I will put more time into kicking and banking. Heath Manning sent me some nice links, I'll watch them later and see if I can incorporate quickly enough what is learnt from them without losing too much the focus of what I'm working on right now.

Sam

thanks for the update

BuddyWing
02-17-2016, 12:33 PM
"GOOD " post

Jaden
02-17-2016, 01:01 PM
Here is an illustration and explanation from a thread I did on banking and kicking a while back talking about the proper way to do angle in angle out banking. A lot of people aren't aware of this and end up getting frustrated that they miss so badly trying to use angle in/angle out.

Except on a red label diamond. People often don't realize that red label diamonds were designed to allow an approximation of center ball aiming for angle in/angle out and like red labels better because of this.

The problem with that is that it is only an approximation so it has a greater learning curve for deliberate players as opposed to feel players...

Banking and Kicking using angle in angle out correctly...
Let me preface this by stating that banks have more feel by necessity than any other shot in pool, so any system will only be a starting point...

Ok now that that is covered...

The below illustration showcases both the correct way to use angle in/angle out in relation to banking and kicking and it showcases how the most common mistake that is made gives you an incorrect result.

Let me explain what you are looking at.

The diagram shows a common rail first kick that comes up in play often, and when people miss it by a mile, they often have no clue what they did wrong.

I am about to show you why.

At first glance this diagram can appear REALLY confusing, but bear with me and pay close attention and it will make a LOT of sense...

The biggest problem with using angle in/angle out is that the greater the severity of the angle, the greater the disparity between center ball (of the ball contacting the rail) and the CP (contact point) of the ball contacting the rail.

The great thing about it is that it is EASY to find the CP on any ball that will make contact with a rail. It is ALWAYS parallel to the rail.

The contact point on any ball making contact with the rail at any angle will ALWAYS be the part of the ball closest to the rail it is contacting.

In the diagram I've drawn out to illustrate this there are several lines and a few balls drawn. Let me tell you what each of those lines and balls represent and you can test this out yourself.

The solid black ball represents an OB that is slightly off the rail.

The solid lined ball directly behind the OB represents the CB after coming off the rail and contacting the OB when it is aimed using the correct angle in/angle out method.

The dashed lined ball represents the CB coming off the rail and contacting the OB when you aim angle in/angle out through center ball (*the wrong way*).

If you look at the starting point of the cueball (represented by the ball that is farthest from the OB) you will see a line contacting the edge of the ball closest to the rail that the ball will be contacting.

This is the proper starting aim point for angle in/angle out kicking and banking.

If you aim at the rail, where this point hits, the CB will rebound from the rail (on a medium shot all things being equal) at the SAME angle that it approached it from.

The way that you would know where to aim at on the rail through center ball, is by parallel shifting from that line to the place on center ball

The circled portion on the rail marked CB-AP represents the correct angle in/angle out starting point.

The circled portion on the rail that is marked CP-PS-AP represents the cueball's center ball aim point. IOW, it is the place that you want to aim through center cueball, if you want to make the shot.

The dashed line that leaves the starting cueball represents where most people aim when trying to use angle in/angle out aiming which is the angle in/angle out angle through center ball and is wrong.

At first glance it looks like the ball will rebound at the correct angle because that line goes right through center ball of the correctly placed cueball, but it isn't the part of the rail that the cueball makes contact with though because the ball has already made contact with the rail before it can get that far.

If you look at the double dashed line, you will see where the ball will ACTUALLY contact the rail which leads to a BAD miss, sometimes including missing the ball entirely depending on the severity of the angle.

Don't take my word for this. Setup the shot and try it using both methods and see for yourself.

Aim through centerball angle in/angle out and aim through the CP (point on the ball that is closest to the rail and can be found with a line parallel to the rail where it contacts the ball) and then shift to center ball.

You will see that the balls do pretty much exactly what I have diagrammed here.

Jaden

Spimp13
02-17-2016, 01:21 PM
Give the ol bank shot calculator a try, I am sure league operators will love getting that phone call lol

Nice ol app kick shot video here

https://www.facebook.com/clyde.b.ellis/videos/10201968907722416/



http://bankshotcalculator.com/