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randytabares
11-07-2015, 07:14 AM
What is the best method for cleaning pool balls? I built a ball polisher and use it but there is a film that shows up on the balls after a few racks of play. Chalk sticks to the cue ball and transfers to the object ball. Is there a better way to clean them?

Kickin' Chicken
11-07-2015, 07:35 AM
if you are using a carpet type ball polisher, use Meguire car polish, just a little dab per ball should do.

I have the carpet type diamond ball polisher and do achieve consistently beautiful results. I only use the Aramith ball cleaning product by hand to clean the occasional very stubborn marks. BTW, do not use the aramith polish in the polishing machine as it will tend to muck up the carpet material.

All of the above was what Glen RKC recommended and it appears he was correct. :)

Quick question, what chalk and balls are you using?

best,
brian kc

randytabares
11-07-2015, 08:55 AM
Masters Chalk and Super Arimith Balls. Measle cue ball. I have been using turtle wax. Mabye that could be the problem. Thank you for the response.

Dan White
11-07-2015, 11:14 AM
What is the best method for cleaning pool balls? I built a ball polisher and use it but there is a film that shows up on the balls after a few racks of play. Chalk sticks to the cue ball and transfers to the object ball. Is there a better way to clean them?

I followed up on Dr. Dave's video on ball throw with different cleaners. I found that if you use Novus, probably not that different from any wax or car polish, the throw characteristics change dramatically in a short time. I found with Novus that the ball initially threw about 1" over 6 diamonds and after only 15 or 20 shots the same ball was throwing over 4". On the other hand, if you use Aramith cleaner, which is specifically made to clean pool balls, the throw was the same for shot 1 as it was for shot 30, about 4 or 5 inches (don't recall the exact throw, but they all threw the same).

IMO, use car waxes for cars, use billiard ball cleaners for billiard balls. Your own experience is a good example.

Sedog
11-07-2015, 11:30 AM
I have a carpet ball cleaner and all I do is apply Turtle wax polish compound, let it dry and them in the ball cleaner, works great.

maha
11-07-2015, 12:43 PM
a little running water and a mr.clean sponge. is all you need
once you put polish on balls they play differently and you can move your cueball all over the place. but if you play with un polished balls you will be a hack and lose.

pdcue
11-07-2015, 08:02 PM
What is the best method for cleaning pool balls? I built a ball polisher and use it but there is a film that shows up on the balls after a few racks of play. Chalk sticks to the cue ball and transfers to the object ball. Is there a better way to clean them?

Throw away all the wax and polishes.

Clean the balls with Ivory SOAP - never detergent - and water.

Pool balls are intended to play Pool with.

If you want things that shine, buy a diamond.

Dale

ctyhntr
11-07-2015, 10:11 PM
Aramith Ball Cleaner! The manufacturer may know a thing or two about pool balls, just say'in.
https://www.seyberts.com/ball-cleaners/polish/aramith-ball-cleaner/

pdcue
11-07-2015, 11:51 PM
Aramith Ball Cleaner! The manufacturer may know a thing or two about pool balls, just say'in.
https://www.seyberts.com/ball-cleaners/polish/aramith-ball-cleaner/

Well, what they know is their job is to make money.

When I play pool, my job is to make balls.

Just sayin...

Dale

Dan White
11-08-2015, 12:06 AM
Well, what they know is their job is to make money.

When I play pool, my job is to make balls.

Just sayin...

Dale

Dale - I kind of know you are making a joke, but it isn't fair to say that just because the company makes the balls, that their cleaner is not better than plain soap. I mean, what makes you say that Ivory soap is so great? Have you tested the throw results when using soap, for instance?

For the money, you aren't going to do much better than Aramith. Only a little drop is necessary and the bottle will last a very long time. so why not use it?

Kickin' Chicken
11-08-2015, 05:54 AM
Dale - I kind of know you are making a joke, but it isn't fair to say that just because the company makes the balls, that their cleaner is not better than plain soap. I mean, what makes you say that Ivory soap is so great? Have you tested the throw results when using soap, for instance?

For the money, you aren't going to do much better than Aramith. Only a little drop is necessary and the bottle will last a very long time. so why not use it?

Dan;

Please clarify, are you recommending using the Aramith ball cleaner polish by hand or in a machine?

Why I ask is because it was explained to me by Glen RKC not to use the Aramith ball polish in a Diamond polisher because it tends to muck up the carpet material.

I do use the Aramith product, as I said earlier, by hand on the infrequent stubborn marks.

I can only share my experience which is using just a dab of Maguire polish per ball every approx. 5th cleaning (the other 4 or so cleaning cycles are done dry in the polisher) works excellent for me.

I've done this with Super Pros, Centennials, Duramith Tournaments and even Raschigs.

All with the same good results.

best,
brian kc

K2Kraze
11-08-2015, 07:24 AM
The carpet inserts in the Diamond ball polisher, folks, is removable and cleans up nicely with a simple warm and wet wash cloth. Same for cleaning the carpeted separator in the center. The Aramith ball cleaning solution is by far the best and if used sparingly, you get many hours of polishing before you need to clean the carpet insert. It should never get "mucked up" if you are cleaning it regularly. The timed polishing sessions don't need to be more than a few minutes if you are regularly maintaining the balls as well. It also makes a huge difference if you apply the Aramith polish directly to the cue ball with your fingertip very lightly covering the entire surface before placing it in the machine.

Seems crazy to me that anyone would use anything else other than specially formulated phenolic ball polish that is available cheaply and quickly to anyone on the planet. With your cellphone and Amazon, you can have it on your doorstep in a few days. And yes, they clean and polish beautifully by hand with any throwaway wash cloth. So no one "needs" the machines.

Come on guys (and gals) - soap, waxes, sponges or erasures. Really? Why not use the right products for your job? If you can take the time to find and buy car wax or Novus acrylic and plastic polish but not pick up some inexpensive Aramith phenolic ball polish for your investment, then no forum suggestions will make sense to you either.

fish on
11-08-2015, 08:23 AM
a little running water and a mr.clean sponge. is all you need
once you put polish on balls they play differently and you can move your cueball all over the place. but if you play with un polished balls you will be a hack and lose.
I agree with mr clean to clean but I use by hand Meguiar's car polish but would not polish the cueball! yep clean balls play better,so cleaned waxed balls are the way to go!

Dan White
11-08-2015, 08:30 AM
Dan;

Please clarify, are you recommending using the Aramith ball cleaner polish by hand or in a machine?



I'm using it in a Bludworth ball machine. I put a small drop on each ball after I put them in the machine and then turn it on. It seems to cover the ball well enough that way. I find that there is a small dab of hardened fabric where each ball rubs the most as it spins in place. You can take a bristle brush or your thumbnail and rough this up to remove some of the residue. Also, the pads can be replaced pretty easily every once in awhile.

I don't claim to know the best way to use the Aramith in the machine over the long term, but I found that when I put it on by hand I tended to use too much. I might also try spreading a small drop by hand all over the ball before putting it in the machine, but I suspect that small hard spot will develop on the cloth just the same. I don't think that spot really hurts anything especially as the balls come out clean and shiny (but not slick).

My main point is that I think Aramith provides consistent results. I don't know about just using soap, but why bother when you have a cheap product made specifically for cleaning phenolic resin?

Black-Balled
11-08-2015, 08:32 AM
In my experience, dish soap is a fine way to take balls that need cleanin and turn them ito balls that need replacement.

I cleaned a set with soap and they were so clingy afterwards, they became unplayable.

I agree with aramith cleaner too.

markgw
11-08-2015, 08:38 AM
What is the best method for cleaning pool balls? I built a ball polisher and use it but there is a film that shows up on the balls after a few racks of play. Chalk sticks to the cue ball and transfers to the object ball. Is there a better way to clean them?

If there's a film you're using too much polish. I use one drop car polish, one drop aramith ball cleaner every 3rd or 4th time through the polisher and they come out slick and film free

Dan White
11-08-2015, 08:59 AM
If there's a film you're using too much polish. I use one drop car polish, one drop aramith ball cleaner every 3rd or 4th time through the polisher and they come out slick and film free

Why do you use car polish? Not trying to be wise, just wondering because I'm not sure if everybody does that for the same reason.

fastone371
11-08-2015, 12:05 PM
Come on guys (and gals) - soap, waxes, sponges or erasures. Really? Why not use the right products for your job? If you can take the time to find and buy car wax or Novus acrylic and plastic polish but not pick up some inexpensive Aramith phenolic ball polish for your investment, then no forum suggestions will make sense to you either.

I use the Aramith cleaner too, it does kind of make sense since it is the product Aramith recommends you use on the balls they make. I use it in my Diamond polisher with superb results, I see no reason to change what I am doing. On my ball sets I use the Aramith Ball Cleaner, but all 3 of my sets are relatively new, I have done some pretty used up ball sets for friends and the Aramith Ball Restorer also does a nice job of making them look nice again.

K2Kraze
11-08-2015, 12:19 PM
I use the Aramith cleaner too, it does kind of make sense since it is the product Aramith recommends you use on the balls they make. I use it in my Diamond polisher with superb results, I see no reason to change what I am doing. On my ball sets I use the Aramith Ball Cleaner, but all 3 of my sets are relatively new, I have done some pretty used up ball sets for friends and the Aramith Ball Restorer also does a nice job of making them look nice again.


On older ball sets and friends that bring their nasty balls over for cleaning and polishing, I also start with the Aramith Ball Restorer (very small amount) using my dedicated "RESTORING" set of Diamond carpet inserts and the carpeted center piece and then follow up with the Aramith Ball Polish using the "POLISHING" inserts. And like a few guys chimed in saying, you don't need to apply the polishing compound every time to the balls you regularly keep pristine. Using the correct products with a little research combined with a few trial and error periods will yield the best results for whichever balls one is working with - that I've discovered that is.


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SARDiver
11-08-2015, 12:23 PM
I use Aramith ball cleaner on Super Aramith Pro set, and I use a micro-fiber cloth that I got with a set of sunglasses. My 7 year old then uses a dry cloth to shine them up. We do this about once every 6 months to a year. I don't worry about them otherwise.

Bavafongoul
11-08-2015, 12:31 PM
I think Brian is right about the mucking up factor with carpet material........the Aramith polish easily rubs off the surface of the balls and re-deposits on the carpet fibers accumulating over time I imagine......I have a Ballstar machine and the pads and made differently. In fact, I still have the replacement pad that came with the Ballstar machine and after 4 years, I haven't had to replace the original pad and it's been used a lot. If the pad was more carpet like, I never could have done this and would definitely avoid using Aramith on the balls being cleaned.

Matt B.

fish on
11-08-2015, 05:50 PM
I know rooms that use windowex with ball polisher machine does a nice job!

pdcue
11-09-2015, 07:35 AM
Dale - I kind of know you are making a joke, but it isn't fair to say that just because the company makes the balls, that their cleaner is not better than plain soap. I mean, what makes you say that Ivory soap is so great? Have you tested the throw results when using soap, for instance?

For the money, you aren't going to do much better than Aramith. Only a little drop is necessary and the bottle will last a very long time. so why not use it?

Dan, actually, I was as serious as heart failure.

My feeling to not use polish or anything to make the balls shine is because it leaves a film on the balls.
The film makes the balls play 'differently'. Specifically how different depends on which
product, how much, etc

Ivory soap because it is milder than dish washing detergent - and, any film can easily
be removed with clean water and a towel. Any mild, true soap would be fine, but
Ivory is widely available in the liquid version.

HTH
Dale

Dan White
11-09-2015, 08:12 AM
Dan, actually, I was as serious as heart failure.

My feeling to not use polish or anything to make the balls shine is because it leaves a film on the balls.
The film makes the balls play 'differently'. Specifically how different depends on which
product, how much, etc

Ivory soap because it is milder than dish washing detergent - and, any film can easily
be removed with clean water and a towel. Any mild, true soap would be fine, but
Ivory is widely available in the liquid version.

HTH
Dale

We are in agreement, then. The Aramith product is a cleaner not a polish or wax. It leaves no residue as my throw experiment would suggest. Soap is good for dishes. I don't know what the throw characteristics are when using soap.

pdcue
11-09-2015, 08:31 AM
We are in agreement, then. The Aramith product is a cleaner not a polish or wax. It leaves no residue as my throw experiment would suggest. Soap is good for dishes. I don't know what the throw characteristics are when using soap.

Cleaning with soap and water has no effect on the throw effect.

HTH
Dale

Dan White
11-09-2015, 02:50 PM
Cleaning with soap and water has no effect on the throw effect.

HTH
Dale

I'll take your word for it. I didn't realize Novus had a dramatic effect on throw until I tested it under controlled conditions. I haven't seen that done with soap and water, but it would make sense that throw wouldn't change from one shot to the next with soap and water since you aren't leaving a film on the ball.

Sloppy Pockets
11-09-2015, 06:17 PM
I followed up on Dr. Dave's video on ball throw with different cleaners. I found that if you use Novus, probably not that different from any wax or car polish, the throw characteristics change dramatically in a short time. I found with Novus that the ball initially threw about 1" over 6 diamonds and after only 15 or 20 shots the same ball was throwing over 4". On the other hand, if you use Aramith cleaner, which is specifically made to clean pool balls, the throw was the same for shot 1 as it was for shot 30, about 4 or 5 inches (don't recall the exact throw, but they all threw the same).

IMO, use car waxes for cars, use billiard ball cleaners for billiard balls. Your own experience is a good example.

None of the Novus products contain wax. The Aramith Ball Cleaner, however, does have wax in it. Here are links to the MSDS of both products.


Aramith - https://na.suzohapp.com/msds_sheets/29-0352-00.pdf

Novus 1 - https://www.novuspolish.com/pdf/PP%20No%201%20SDS%20USA%20CAN%20Jan%202015.pdf

Novus 2 - https://www.novuspolish.com/pdf/PP%20No%202%20SDS%20USA%20CAN%20Feb%202015.pdf

Novus 3 - https://www.novuspolish.com/pdf/PP%20No%203%20SDS%20USA%20EU%20CAN%20Jun%202014.pd f

In my experience (strictly hand cleaning) the Aramith cleaner leaves a coating that chalk sticks to quite firmly. It is hard to remove by hand without using more cleaner (but maybe a machine cleaner has better luck). Chalk also sticks to the Novus treated balls, but it wipes off fairly easily with a dry cloth.

FWIW the Novus 1 and 2 contain a small amount (about 7%) of polydimethylsiloxane, which is found in some silicone sprays. This may be what is responsible for producing such an initially low amount of throw. It may also be why chalk doesn't stick well to ball cleaned with it.

BogeyFree
11-10-2015, 12:10 PM
I have a Diamond ball cleaner machine and the only carpet insert that is easily removable is the one that goes all the way around the edge and that is velcroed in place. The center insert carpet piece and the round bottom carpet piece that spins are both glued on. How are you supposed to remove and wash them?

K2Kraze
11-10-2015, 01:43 PM
I have a Diamond ball cleaner machine and the only carpet insert that is easily removable is the one that goes all the way around the edge and that is velcroed in place. The center insert carpet piece and the round bottom carpet piece that spins are both glued on. How are you supposed to remove and wash them?



The carpeted Diamond polisher center insert is easily cleaned with a wet wash cloth, fingers and a little elbow grease in each of the cut-out areas. Literally takes less than 2 minutes to clean it almost back to new condition IF you don't let it get "mucked" up and nasty between cleanings. I clean the removable outside ring carpet the same way. Let them dry overnight and good as new. I have multiple center sections labeled for polishing vs restoring so the Aramith compounds at least stay on the same areas. Same for the pit used carpet. You can get spare ones through Diamond of course - cheaply I might add.


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BogeyFree
11-10-2015, 02:00 PM
Do you ever remove the bottom round piece that is glued to the plywood and clean it?

fastone371
11-10-2015, 04:21 PM
We are in agreement, then. The Aramith product is a cleaner not a polish or wax. It leaves no residue as my throw experiment would suggest. Soap is good for dishes. I don't know what the throw characteristics are when using soap.

I am more than happy when using the Aramith ball cleaner. I have no idea how it affects throw but how much does it really matter? If you play in tournaments or league you probably play at a variety of locations and they probably do not all clean their balls the same using the same products. Throw is something you will just need to adjust to anyway. What I like about the Aramith cleaner is that when the balls come out of my polisher they feel the same as when the balls were new out of the box. If I were to use wax I can state for a fact that the balls would be considerately more slippery when handling them. I keep all of my sets in nice condition, I have not tried dropping them in the polisher without the ball cleaner yet, I may try it. When I clean them I usually put 1 drop on every other ball or 1 drop on 2 balls 180 degrees apart.

Dave
11-10-2015, 05:03 PM
It seems that using wax is introducing a variable. Not a good idea.

WPA Tournament Table & Equipment Specifications

(Effective November 2001 )
16. Balls and Ball Rack
All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms]. Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed. Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water. Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.

Bob Jewett
11-10-2015, 07:56 PM
I think using car products on pool balls is a mistake unless you don't care how much they throw and how much that throw changes during play. If throw is not part of your game, then feel free.

I recommend Aramith polish or an equivalent. I like to rinse the balls with plain water after polishing to make sure any residue is gone and then rub dry with a towel. The polish does restore scuffed spots on the surface of the balls.

Sloppy Pockets
11-10-2015, 09:21 PM
It seems that using wax is introducing a variable. Not a good idea.

WPA Tournament Table & Equipment Specifications

(Effective November 2001 )
16. Balls and Ball Rack
All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms]. Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed. Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water. Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.

Well, there you go. You cannot use Aramith ball cleaner without using a rag moistened with diluted alcohol to remove the residue.

Again, from Saluc's MSDS:

COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
2.1 Description: Emulsion, suspension of wax and aliphatic solvents with mineral abrasives 2.2 Composition: Petroleum distillate (hydroprocessed) 4%; Xn; R65
Monocyclic terpene 4%; Xi; R38
Fatty alcohol ethoxylated; 2.5%; R36/38 Other components: not dangerous classified

Aramith ball cleaner is an emulsion composed of wax, solvents, and abrasives (polishing/rubbing compounds). There is no magic about it, just a proprietary mixture of commonly available compounds, none of which has any place on the surface of a billiard ball.

I'm taking Dale's advise and switching to Ivory soap. 99 and 44/100ths percent pure. What more could you ask for in a cleaner. ;)

Bob Jewett
11-10-2015, 09:37 PM
... What more could you ask for in a cleaner? ;)
I could ask it to restore the scuffed surface of the ball to its pre-scuffed state.

Sloppy Pockets
11-10-2015, 10:02 PM
I could ask it to restore the scuffed surface of the ball to its pre-scuffed state.

Well, that's what the Aramith ball restorer is for, isn't it? Use it and then rinse off the residue with a mild soap (not a detergent) to my way of thinking.

The point is that the Aramith cleaner does contain wax, a substance that is against the rules (and isn't such a good idea anyway). Do you believe it's some special kind of wax that was formulated just for phenolic billiard balls? I don't. It's 99.9% likely that it's just plain old cheap carnauba... which is automobile wax.

3andstop
11-10-2015, 10:50 PM
I use the Aramth cleaner, but if you want to try another option, pick up some motorcycle clear plastic windshield cleaner. Its made for clear plastic and wont leave a film.

You can buy a plastic spray bottle for a buck or two at home depot and cut the aramith cleaner with a little water. Spray it on the balls and it wont build up on your ball cleaner like it would otherwise.

dr_dave
11-11-2015, 07:33 AM
I followed up on Dr. Dave's video on ball throw with different cleaners. I found that if you use Novus, probably not that different from any wax or car polish, the throw characteristics change dramatically in a short time. I found with Novus that the ball initially threw about 1" over 6 diamonds and after only 15 or 20 shots the same ball was throwing over 4". On the other hand, if you use Aramith cleaner, which is specifically made to clean pool balls, the throw was the same for shot 1 as it was for shot 30, about 4 or 5 inches (don't recall the exact throw, but they all threw the same).

IMO, use car waxes for cars, use billiard ball cleaners for billiard balls. Your own experience is a good example.Good post. For those interested in the video and follow-up articles dealing with the effects of different cleaning and polishing products, here they are:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVD-16.htm)
"Throw Follow-up: Part I: Cling (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2014/july14.pdf)" (BD, July, 2014).
"Throw Follow-up: Part II: More Results (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2014/aug14.pdf)" (BD, August, 2014).

Enjoy,
Dave

Dave
11-11-2015, 09:09 AM
I had considered the Aramith ball cleaner the holy grail... oh well....? now what?
Thanks for finding the MSDS sheet Mr Pockets. It is curious that Saluc, the premier manufacturer of balls and the sponsor supplying their name and balls to just about all tournaments, sells a product that is clearly not within the rules.
I love my home made bucket ball cleaner, in which I've used Brillianize for years.
I knew it left something on the balls, but seemed pretty neutral... at least for my playing.
I've tried to figure this ornery cleaning problem out. The ideal would be to be able to use some liquid cleaner in the bucket and be done with it... not have to clean and then remove the cleaner with a more neutral product. Thanks for kicking this around.

Additionally, my guess [ yes, guess] is Saluc's cleaner is nothing proprietary... an off the shelf product that meets their specifications.
Hummmm.... 55 gallon drum..... @ $1/oz retail.. hummm ... there's good margin there, my man!... book it, bill it, SHIP IT!

BogeyFree
11-11-2015, 09:22 AM
How about just spraying some Windex on the balls as they are spinning around the ball cleaner?

Texas Carom Club
11-11-2015, 10:18 AM
I just got a new set last night and boy do they mobe around, I also have a set that ive been using for the past 3 months, getting a ball cleaner soon now to keep both sets in the best shape,
Ive only been cleaning mypro cupcarom set by hand with soap and water, then burinishing with a clean tshirt to get as much of any residue off

But I enjoy that fresh set that must have a tad of polish on it

Bavafongoul
11-11-2015, 10:30 AM
Personally speaking, I am more concerned that the rules allow for the pool balls to differ from each other in weight......it is permissible to have every ball a different weight up to 1/2 ounce.....14 grams weight variation.

Everyone seems to have a favorite type cue ball to use.....and cue balls types do vary in weight....sometimes significantly. The laws of physics definitely come into play with two circular masses of different weights that vary in weight as much as a 1/4 ounce, and up to 1/2 ounce weight difference, collide. 14 grams heavier or lighter weight difference between the two pool balls definitely affects and alters the reaction......and you learn to adjust.......or else lose.......but that's a big issue in my opinion.

Matt B.

Sloppy Pockets
11-11-2015, 11:00 AM
I had considered the Aramith ball cleaner the holy grail... oh well....? now what?
Thanks for finding the MSDS sheet Mr Pockets. It is curious that Saluc, the premier manufacturer of balls and the sponsor supplying their name and balls to just about all tournaments, sells a product that is clearly not within the rules.
I love my home made bucket ball cleaner, in which I've used Brillianize for years.
I knew it left something on the balls, but seemed pretty neutral... at least for my playing.
I've tried to figure this ornery cleaning problem out. The ideal would be to be able to use some liquid cleaner in the bucket and be done with it... not have to clean and then remove the cleaner with a more neutral product. Thanks for kicking this around.

Additionally, my guess [ yes, guess] is Saluc's cleaner is nothing proprietary... an off the shelf product that meets their specifications.
Hummmm.... 55 gallon drum..... @ $1/oz retail.. hummm ... there's good margin there, my man!... book it, bill it, SHIP IT!

Here's a link to the Brillianize MSDS:

http://www.brillianize.com/Literature/BRILL%20MSDS%2009April2012.pdf

As you can see, there's not much in it but water. Whatever the proprietary ingredient is, it is at a much lower concentration than the ingredients of either the Aramith or Novus products, so I doubt it'll leaving much of anything on the ball after the water dries. If you leave the Aramith cleaner on the surface to dry, it dries all hazy but then wipes off with a dry rag, leaving a very shiny surface. This is how you apply car wax. It's likely that the stuff isn't leaving much wax behind if it is used very sparingly in a ball polishing machine as most folks seem to do, but Aramith recommends using one drop per ball when hand cleaning, which makes for quick cleaning but may leave way too much residue on the surface.

It's funny to me that Diamond recommends using either Aramith cleaner or Meguiar's Ultimate Quik Detailer in their machine. The reason this is funny to me is that the two products have just about a night and day difference in their composition. Here's a link to the MSDS of the Meguiar's product (scroll down to the G14422 pdf.)

http://www.meguiars.com.au/msds/

The listed non-proprietary ingredients are isoproyl alcohol (a solvent) and propylene glycol (an antifreeze), both at rather small (.5-2%) concentrations. The balance is not given, but since this is touted as a "high bead" water-repellent detailer, it is likely that is contains silicone, waxes, or perhaps both.

From the company's sales info:

The most advanced high bead and deep gloss spray detailer! Meguiar’s®, the company that brought car enthusiasts the world’s first spray detailer, now introduces a revolutionary mist and wipe product that works like a spray detailer and enhances wax protection. This totally unique formula represents a significant breakthrough in technology that has even our eyes popping! Through the use of new Hydrophobic Polymer Technology™, Meguiar’s has created a spray detailer that actually repels water, withstands multiple car washes, and adds additional protection to your finish. The secret lies in the high level of surface tension created when these revolutionary polymers react. The result is a slicker, darker surface and incredible water beading! You will feel your towel almost float across the surface. The gentle, high lubricity formula is safe on all paint types including the latest clear coats and can be used daily to remove loose contaminants, dust and grime to keep your car looking its absolute best. It’s so easy, you can detail a full size car in less than 10 minutes!


All of the stuff in red has me concerned about whether or not I want these polymers adhering to my pool balls, particularly if the product can "withstand multiple car washes".

BTW as far as Brillianize seeming neutral regarding throw, have you tested it the way Dr. Dave does in his video? His method is pretty objective, and won't be affected by stroke errors.

Dave
11-11-2015, 12:22 PM
Hi Mr P.
Thanks for the links.
I'm falling down this rabbit hole.....againnnnnnnn
Most of this is looking familiar. Have I tested ... No. I can hear it now.
Shut up and test.
... but I'll continue.
Diamond looks foolish.... I remember this MacG quick detailer. It's another company's Armorall.
Forgive me but, a blind man running for his life could see that it's not suited for cleaning balls.
It's a polymer, designed to make something shine and shed water!.... hummm
Doesn't that make it slippery? D'oh!
When I talked with the Brillanize people a few years back, I came away thinking there were polymers in their product too.
I asked specifically about cleaning billiard balls and the "nothing left behind" dictum.
The conversation got vague, but I do remember the representative saying something like 'Yes, we sell a lot of it for that use.' Great!


Anyone have a friend in polymer science?

Windex is looking more appealing. ... and then there's good old vinegar.

Texas Carom Club
11-11-2015, 01:11 PM
Le magnifique? Ball cleaner a suitable substitute for aramith cleaner?

I asked the billiard factory specifically for aramith but that's what they brought instore

a1712
11-11-2015, 01:59 PM
Le magnifique? Ball cleaner a suitable substitute for aramith cleaner?

I asked the billiard factory specifically for aramith but that's what they brought instore

I use Aramith and Tiger Le' Magnifigue in my Diamond polisher. I actually prefer the Tiger over the Aramith for the simple fact it doesn't gum my polisher up near as bad. But as stated in earlier posts, it's not hard to clean the pads and hubs of the polisher. I clean 6 sets 3x's per week, I clean my polisher once a month, I have 3 sets of hubs I use per month. Brian.

BogeyFree
11-11-2015, 03:01 PM
How do you remove the round hub?

a1712
11-11-2015, 04:25 PM
The hubs are the inserts and not attached to anything. The side cleaners are just held in with Velcro. The bottom pads I install w/Contact Cement, they're easily removable, I just wash them, let them dry and contact cement them back in. I get about a year out of the pads and 3 sets of hubs. That cleans 6 sets of balls 3x's per week. Brian.

Dan White
11-11-2015, 06:27 PM
Well, that's what the Aramith ball restorer is for, isn't it? Use it and then rinse off the residue with a mild soap (not a detergent) to my way of thinking.

The point is that the Aramith cleaner does contain wax, a substance that is against the rules (and isn't such a good idea anyway). Do you believe it's some special kind of wax that was formulated just for phenolic billiard balls? I don't. It's 99.9% likely that it's just plain old cheap carnauba... which is automobile wax.

It's amazing sometimes how people feel a need to reinvent the wheel! I'm not directing that necessarily at you, SP, but Aramith does not leave a waxy residue on the surface. Any residual compound that could possibly be left over DOES NOT affect the throw properties in any way. I tested the product per Dr. Dave's procedure, only I repeated the procedure 20 and 30 times with the same ball. Aramith cleaned balls threw the exact same amount on shot 1 as they did on shot 30. It was actually pretty surprising.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5056666

Sloppy Pockets
11-11-2015, 07:13 PM
It's amazing sometimes how people feel a need to reinvent the wheel! I'm not directing that necessarily at you, SP, but Aramith does not leave a waxy residue on the surface. Any residual compound that could possibly be left over DOES NOT affect the throw properties in any way. I tested the product per Dr. Dave's procedure, only I repeated the procedure 20 and 30 times with the same ball. Aramith cleaned balls threw the exact same amount on shot 1 as they did on shot 30. It was actually pretty surprising.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5056666

Aramith is the one that reinvented the wheel. Lol! Do you think Greenleaf, Mosconi, and Crane used a "special" phenolic billiard ball cleaner?

The facts are that Aramith puts wax in their formulation. They even say they do, so there is no denying it. Why put wax in your emulsion if you don't want wax on the ball? How would you keep wax off the ball once you smear it on? It's just not logical that their cleaner contains wax and yet leaves no wax on the ball, nor does it make sense that they would add it if they don't want it to get on the polished ball.

And, yes, the stuff DOES affect the throw properties of the ball. If you use the Aramith treated ball as the reference, then no, it obviously has no effect. But if you use the untreated phenolic ball as the reference (i.e. cleaned of all traces of residue using a solvent like alcohol, acetone, or by using a detergent) , well, the Aramith product decreases throw compared to the bare resin. Dr. Dave's experiment demonstrated this quite adequately to me.

Dan White
11-11-2015, 07:27 PM
Aramith is the one that reinvented the wheel. Lol! Do you think Greenleaf, Mosconi, and Crane used a "special" phenolic billiard ball cleaner?

The facts are that Aramith puts wax in their formulation. They even say they do, so there is no denying it. Why put wax in your emulsion if you don't want wax on the ball? How would you keep wax off the ball once you smear it on? It's just not logical that their cleaner contains wax and yet leaves no wax on the ball, nor does it make sense that they would add it if they don't want it to get on the polished ball.

And, yes, the stuff DOES affect the throw properties of the ball. If you use the Aramith treated ball as the reference, then no, it obviously has no effect. But if you use the untreated phenolic ball as the reference (i.e. cleaned of all traces of residue using a solvent like alcohol, acetone, or by using a detergent) , well, the Aramith product decreases throw compared to the bare resin. Dr. Dave's experiment demonstrated this quite adequately to me.

Two points:
1. The old timers used clay balls, not phenolic, for all or much of their careers. I don't know what they used to clean them,

2. You may be correct that Aramith causes less throw than a ball cleaned with soap and water. It may be a rainy day project for me to try. However, throw does not change with the Aramith cleaner while it does change with products that leave a residue. This suggests that the residue from using Aramith is either negligible, or is some material that does not affect throw. Either way, the product removes scuff marks, is easy to use in a ball machine, isn't expensive and a bottle will last a very long time. I think you could do worse and even ruin the balls with homemade remedies.

GoldCrown
11-11-2015, 07:31 PM
The BallStar liquid is a really good non abrasive polish.

Sloppy Pockets
11-11-2015, 07:39 PM
I tested the product per Dr. Dave's procedure, only I repeated the procedure 20 and 30 times with the same ball. Aramith cleaned balls threw the exact same amount on shot 1 as they did on shot 30. It was actually pretty surprising.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5056666

I just read your thread about the tests you did and I think it is very good work. Like I said earlier in this thread, Novus 1 contains poly dimethylsiloxane in the same concentration as 3M silicone spray uses, so the Novus product is, in fact, a silicone spray equivalent to the 3M product. This does not negate the fact that the Aramith cleaner has wax in it, however. It also contains fine abrasives and a solvent (limonene in this case, I used to use that stuff in prepping histological sections, its smell is quite unique).

I'm not even saying it's not good stuff to use (as long as you use it regularly before it wears off), just that it is there, and that some rule sets state that it is illegal to use without removing it with some sort of solvent. Maybe we should change the rules? At least folks should know about the Novus 1 having silicone in it, because that is definitely a big no-no.

Gumbo
11-12-2015, 08:41 AM
The key to ball polishing and restoration is in the process, which involves speed of polisher, grit of the "carpet" and composition of the compound.
Rubbing compounds are developed to be used within a certain range of temperature (speed), on specific rubbing materials and on certain materials.
Upon extensive testing of a new concept of pool ball polisher in EU, which is yet to be released on the market, we found out that in order to achieve good and consistent results in the restoration, speed plays a key role and that any product containing waxes and silicones should be avoided.
Best results are achieved either with wax free powder rubbing compounds used in the metal industry, or with ammonia and chlorine free liquid metal polishers*as long as they can withstand high temperatures.
Currently we are achieving best results with a proprietary blend.
What everyone tends to forget is the industrial polishing process the balls undergo. This does NOT involve neither slow speed polishing, nor wax based compounds of any sort.
The wax and sylicones stick to the balls and will finally end on your table cloth, and cushions and pockets, resulting in unproper rebound and pockets playing "funny" and this even more true on high wool content cloth such as the 860 since they tend to soak up more stuff than their lower wool content counterparts (such as but not limited to the 760).
The problem of chalk sticking on restored pool balls is something we have to live with. It can be minimized by using proper polishing procedures (machines and compounds) but it cannot be completely eliminated since it is simply not possible to achieve same results as the big industrial polishers in one unit that is intended for household and/or poolroom use.
The problem is simply due to the fact that the porosity of the surface of the ball is not as smooth as one that has undergone an industrial polishing process. A dirty ball will not get chalkmarks simply because it is too greasy or the surface it too oxidyzed to catch chalk, which doesn't mean that ball plays better than a polished/restored ball.
As far as whitening of old balls, yes that is possible and currently there is a sample of the product in the US, since we have shipped some samples to Rob Molina.
It is not likely that the withener will be released for household use since there's a good chance it will spoil the balls if not used by trained personnel and on top of that it requires high speed polishing as the final step.

Get in touch with Rob for more info.

Bob Jewett
11-12-2015, 02:35 PM
... The problem of chalk sticking on restored pool balls is something we have to live with. It can be minimized by using proper polishing procedures (machines and compounds) but it cannot be completely eliminated since it is simply not possible to achieve same results as the big industrial polishers in one unit that is intended for household and/or poolroom use.
...
Very interesting. Is it possible to come close to the industrial result by using a second, finer grit polish as a finishing step?

Bavafongoul
11-12-2015, 05:40 PM
WPA sanctioned events specify:

All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms].

Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed.

Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water.

Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.

victorl
11-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Why bother going through all that when you can just get the referee to do it for you?
For the cleanest balls, wait until your opponent is on a roll and then ask the ref to clean them over and over again!

- Karl Boyes

Sloppy Pockets
11-12-2015, 06:27 PM
Very interesting. Is it possible to come close to the industrial result by using a second, finer grit polish as a finishing step?

That's always the process to achieving a high polish. It is much easier and quicker to start with the coarsest grit that will eliminate the deepest scratches and then quickly step up through graded abrasives until you get the polish desired.

The problem is that within a few hours of serious play the balls will be covered with very fine scratches. Although they won't be easily seen with the naked eye, they are there. In order to get these completely out it is necessary to go back to the coarsest grit that will remove them, which is very likely one or two grits courser than the grit used on the final polishing.

This will go on indefinitely, with the balls getting worn down way faster than normal play would cause. Most cream polishes contain very fine abrasives and waxes. These kind of dub over the edges of the fine scratches so they aren't easily seen, but they are still as deep as they ever were. Only by taking the entire ball surface down to the level of the bottom of the deepest scratches can you totally eliminate them. IMHO this process should be done once and only once - as the very last step in the manufacturing process.

Gumbo
11-12-2015, 06:38 PM
Since all balls are polished as the final step before going to market it is evident that the written rule is aimed at preventing waxed balls, more than polished balls being used in tournaments. Waxing is one thing polishing is another thing. Rubbing the balls with an alcohol based solution is indeed aimed at removing wax residues from the ball.
While this practice is effective (to some extent) in reducing the problem of wax residues building up on the cloth and unconsistency of the ball behaviour as the wax wears out, this doesn't solve the problem of the ball being improperly "polished".
Bob, its not only a matter of finer compound grit. As I said previously the speed/rubbing material/rubbing compound must be matched in order to obtain good results.
The difficulty of producing a machine that will yeld a "near factory" finish at an affordable price is the reason why this new polisher was not yet released, but we are near.
We are working on an expandable, modular concept aimed at polishing up to 4 full sets in a matter of seconds. This should make the machine more appealing for professional use while still retaining an acceptable price range for the home enthusiasts looking for near factory finish and consistent behavior of the balls.
The fact that currently a speed controller that will work with both 110 and 220 volts input is not available on the market as a preassembled unit (other then the very expensive inverter based units) is not helping much in producing a machine that is addressed at both the European and the US market, but we working on it.

Dave
11-13-2015, 09:35 AM
Thanks for your input Gumbo.
I'll be interested to hear more about and see your ball cleaner in action.
I'll be sticking to my bucket cleaner, but trying to improve my process.
Here's to a neutral playing field!

dr_dave
11-13-2015, 10:08 AM
WPA sanctioned events specify:

All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms].

Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed.

Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water.

Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.Cleaning pool balls with rubbing alcohol is a terrible idea (unless it is followed up by a secondary cleaning with something else) ... it can dramatically increase the typical amount of throw. For more info, see the video and articles on the ball cleaning and surface treatment resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/balls.html#surface).

Those ball-cleaning rules need to be updated.

Regards,
Dave

Sloppy Pockets
11-13-2015, 10:38 AM
Cleaning pool balls with rubbing alcohol is a terrible idea (unless it is followed up by a secondary cleaning with something else) ... it can dramatically increase the typical amount of throw. For more info, see the video and articles on the ball cleaning and surface treatment resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/balls.html#surface).

Those ball-cleaning rules need to be updated.

Regards,
Dave

Have you consulted a chemist about what may be at play with the alcohol? I doubt it is adding anything to the ball unless it is very impure (highly unlikely), and phenolic resin is supposed to be a pretty inert substance, so I don't think a mild solvent like isopropanol is going to etch the ball surface or damage it in any other way. Is it possible that the alcohol is merely removing something from the ball that wasn't meant to be there in the first place? Like the wax from the ball cleaner used previously?

BTW I'm not trying to go all "English!" here, I genuinely want to know.

dr_dave
11-13-2015, 10:53 AM
Have you consulted a chemist about what may be at play with the alcohol? I doubt it is adding anything to the ball unless it is very impure (highly unlikely), and phenolic resin is supposed to be a pretty inert substance, so I don't think a mild solvent like isopropanol is going to etch the ball surface or damage it in any other way. Is it possible that the alcohol is merely removing something from the ball that wasn't meant to be there in the first place? Like the wax from the ball cleaner used previously?

BTW I'm not trying to go all "English!" here, I genuinely want to know.Thank you for not agreeing to not "go all English!" on me. That makes it easier and more pleasant to respond. :grin-square:

See the 2nd article on the resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/balls.html#surface), where I address this topic some:

"Throw Follow-up: Part II: More Results (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2014/aug14.pdf)" (BD, August, 2014).

I think pool balls from the manufacturer, or after cleaning with typically recommended products, or after handling by people, have a residue on them that is fairly consistent and persistent that results in a "typical" amount of throw (what players expect). I think the alcohol (and other aggressive cleaners) strip everything from the balls, exposing squeaky-clean resin surfaces that result in more throw than people expect.

Again, check out the video and articles. They summarize pretty much everything I know on the topic.

Regards,
Dave

Texas Carom Club
11-13-2015, 11:29 AM
I cleaned both my sets last night with le magnifique, by tiger
seemed to add a bit of polish to it like my new set still has, I like it so far

and got a micro fiber cloth to clean the chalk from them by hand

Bavafongoul
11-13-2015, 12:11 PM
It looks like I am in the minority about the issue as I see it ....permissible....allowable.....variations in the weight of every individual object ball and the cue ball itself......up to 1/2 oz difference.

We all know about the differences in play a cue ball can make by switching from a measles ball to a red dot ball, etc. Well, what about a 9 ball that weighs 5.55 ozs and a 10 ball that weighs 5.98 ozs and so on.

I submit that the tolerances are way too generous and that mismatched weights of the balls in a set play very differently than weights that are close.......I weigh my pool balls every 3-4 months (3x annually) on my gun powder scale. I rotate a new set into play every 18 months and sell my used set of Centennials...this way all my pool balls have matched weights all the time.

I'd be interested in reading whether anyone else thinks the permissible weight difference is an issue. I think every tournament should use the same cue balls.......not a red circle in some and a measles in another or a red dot, or blue dot or no dot cue balls.......players have favorite cue balls.....wanna draw the cue ball like it was a yo-yo, then use a red dot cue ball.....12 grams lighter. I think every tournament should use the same type cue balls which is probably an impossibility as much as hoping for similar weights in the "all of the pool balls".

Matt B.

3kushn
11-13-2015, 12:43 PM
Well, that's what the Aramith ball restorer is for, isn't it? Use it and then rinse off the residue with a mild soap (not a detergent) to my way of thinking.

The point is that the Aramith cleaner does contain wax, a substance that is against the rules (and isn't such a good idea anyway). Do you believe it's some special kind of wax that was formulated just for phenolic billiard balls? I don't. It's 99.9% likely that it's just plain old cheap carnauba... which is automobile wax.

Mr SP Bob Jewett is correct. If all you want is a clean sterile germ free surface then fine use soap and water. If you want the smooth shiny surface of a new ball you MUST use an abrasive. There is no other way. This is why body shop products have abrasives for removal of micro scratches in your clear coat.

Polishing Compound (not Rubbing Compound)
Plastic Restorer Products
3M Finessit is a good one.
and of course Aramith products.

I do wish they took out the wax in the cleaner. It probably sells better with it in there.
The difference between the Restorer and Cleaner is the amount and maybe grit size contained. It appears that the grit breaks down quickly acting finer and finer the longer you're cleaning each ball. I use both and I clean after about 1 or 2 hours of play. Why I have 5 sets. Of 3. Another reason to play 3Cushion.

Putting Wax on the balls makes them slide. At least until it gets rubbed off by the chalk impregnated cloth. 45 minutes?? So the balls play really different between the start of a session and the end of the session.

Sloppy Pockets
11-13-2015, 07:01 PM
Mr SP Bob Jewett is correct. If all you want is a clean sterile germ free surface then fine use soap and water. If you want the smooth shiny surface of a new ball you MUST use an abrasive. There is no other way. This is why body shop products have abrasives for removal of micro scratches in your clear coat.

Polishing Compound (not Rubbing Compound)
Plastic Restorer Products
3M Finessit is a good one.
and of course Aramith products.

I do wish they took out the wax in the cleaner. It probably sells better with it in there.
The difference between the Restorer and Cleaner is the amount and maybe grit size contained. It appears that the grit breaks down quickly acting finer and finer the longer you're cleaning each ball. I use both and I clean after about 1 or 2 hours of play. Why I have 5 sets. Of 3. Another reason to play 3Cushion.

Putting Wax on the balls makes them slide. At least until it gets rubbed off by the chalk impregnated cloth. 45 minutes?? So the balls play really different between the start of a session and the end of the session.


I never said Bob was wrong about needing to use an abrasive to remove surface scratches. It's the idea of bringing the balls back to a factory-new surface that I think is folly.

Using fine abrasives that break down in use into even finer particles (common for most polishing compounds I've used; usually friable aluminum oxide is the abrasive) works well for removing extremely fine scratches, but these won't get out deep scratches (those up to .001" or even deeper). For these scratches you will need to use a courser grit than even a rubbing compound, and by the time you get out all the .001" deep scratches you will have reduced the size of the ball by .002" before you even go to the finer abrasives. Not acceptable in my book. If the balls get that badly beat up, it's time to replace them.

As far as the wax goes, I suspect the manufacturer uses a compound similar to what they sell for cleaning the balls after they have been in use. This compound does contain wax. Apparently, the native resin has a coefficient of friction that is high enough to create a strong throw effect, so the wax is added to reduce the throw. It doesn't hurt sales that it makes the balls beautifully shiny as well.

So, we can live with throw or we can live with wax, but it appears we can't have a bare phenolic resin surface that doesn't induce a lot of throw... or at least that's what Dr. Dave's experiment seems to show.

And I agree with Dr. Dave. It's time to change the rules.

Island Drive
11-14-2015, 06:13 AM
What is the best method for cleaning pool balls? I built a ball polisher and use it but there is a film that shows up on the balls after a few racks of play. Chalk sticks to the cue ball and transfers to the object ball. Is there a better way to clean them?

If the ball set is old and somewhat worn, the outer surface that was impermeable may not be anymore. When that happens the balls become porous. This will allow table dirt to cling to the ball. If the set is old, replace it, if not I'm sure others here have offered great info. Ya just don't want anything that's abrasive, like the Old Willard ball cleaners with the Wool cleaning pad, it ruins ball sets. Personally, I'd use a clean damp white cotton cloth and wipe em by hand.

dr_dave
11-14-2015, 08:50 AM
So, we can live with throw or we can live with wax, but it appears we can't have a bare phenolic resin surface that doesn't induce a lot of throw... or at least that's what Dr. Dave's experiment seems to show.By "doesn't" I assume you meant "does." When the balls are stripped of all residue, the bare "squeaky-clean" phenolic resin surfaces create much more throw than players expect.

Regards,
Dave

Sloppy Pockets
11-14-2015, 10:16 AM
By "doesn't" I assume you meant "does." When the balls are stripped of all residue, the bare "squeaky-clean" phenolic resin surfaces create much more throw than players expect.

Regards,
Dave

No, I just used a double negative in a grammatically weak way. We can't have (can't expect to achieve) a completely clean surface that doesn't also create unwanted throw.

Hope that's a bit clearer (at least it is for me). ;)

What convinced me was when you lightly sanded the surface of the ball and the throw didn't change much from a solvent-cleaned ball. It's obvious that it's the resin itself that causes the problem, and that the wax (or other surface treatment) just reduces the amount of throw.

Sloppy Pockets
11-14-2015, 10:41 AM
FWIW I did my own little experiment last night. Not with donuts and frozen balls, but with real-life playing conditions.

I (reluctantly) cleaned my measles ball very throughly with denatured alcohol, as well as an object ball. I wiped them dry with a clean cotton rag, then re-wiped with alcohol and dried them again with a microfleece towel.

I thoroughly cleaned my blue circle CB with the Aramith product, then I cleaned another CB with Novus 1. I set up a shot with both a CB and an OB in a straight line directed at the long rail and about a diamond uptable from the center pocket.

I tried to bank the OB into the opposite side pocket, shooting straight at the OB and using spin alone to pocket the ball. I tried every combination I could, using all three CBs, and both uncleaned and solvent-cleaned OBs (I didn't use the Novus on an OB). I had no problem transferring enough spin to make banks in each case. The alcohol-cleaned balls mostly fell in on the long side of the pocket, while the Novus-cleaned CB and alcohol-cleaned OB mostly banked a little short, but still dropped into the short side. I tried my best to use a medium-firm stroke for each shot. And yes, I did miss a few altogether.

I then set up several cut shots from about 15º to 45º to see if I missed any. I used donuts to achieve consistency between trials. I really could not tell the difference between any of the combination of cleaning products used. I deliberately close shots for the experiment, but in each case the OB seemed to cut close to the heart of the pocket, and this was using varying cue delivery speeds as well.

I have no logical explanation for all of this, especially given the results of your carefully carried out experiment, but for me I think that alignment and stroke errors probably cause me to miss way more shots than variations in throw cause. I am truly confused at this point, but for the time being I'm just gonna use the Aramith cleaner once a week on the object balls, and once or twice a day on the CB. At least they'll stay shiny and free of unwanted debris.

fastone371
11-14-2015, 12:36 PM
Aramith is the one that reinvented the wheel. Lol! Do you think Greenleaf, Mosconi, and Crane used a "special" phenolic billiard ball cleaner?

The facts are that Aramith puts wax in their formulation. They even say they do, so there is no denying it. Why put wax in your emulsion if you don't want wax on the ball? How would you keep wax off the ball once you smear it on? It's just not logical that their cleaner contains wax and yet leaves no wax on the ball, nor does it make sense that they would add it if they don't want it to get on the polished ball.

And, yes, the stuff DOES affect the throw properties of the ball. If you use the Aramith treated ball as the reference, then no, it obviously has no effect. But if you use the untreated phenolic ball as the reference (i.e. cleaned of all traces of residue using a solvent like alcohol, acetone, or by using a detergent) , well, the Aramith product decreases throw compared to the bare resin. Dr. Dave's experiment demonstrated this quite adequately to me.

When my Aramith, Centennial, and Cyclops balls come out of my Diamond polisher using Aramith Ball Cleaner they feel very much like they did when they were brand new. Whether or not the wax stays on the balls does not matter to me if the polished set play similar to the new set. I dont think many people are going to buy a new set of balls and immediately modify the surface of the balls before putting them into use. Many of the bigger local tournaments use freshly polished balls as do most pool halls and even some bars. Out BCA state tournament had brand new Diamonds with brand new Cyclops. If I am cleaning my balls the same way the manufacturer finishes them and the same way many local establishments clean them I feel I am maintaining a certain amount of consistency by using the products I regardless of whether or not it contains any wax.

Sloppy Pockets
11-14-2015, 02:38 PM
When my Aramith, Centennial, and Cyclops balls come out of my Diamond polisher using Aramith Ball Cleaner they feel very much like they did when they were brand new. Whether or not the wax stays on the balls does not matter to me if the polished set play similar to the new set. I dont think many people are going to buy a new set of balls and immediately modify the surface of the balls before putting them into use. Many of the bigger local tournaments use freshly polished balls as do most pool halls and even some bars. Out BCA state tournament had brand new Diamonds with brand new Cyclops. If I am cleaning my balls the same way the manufacturer finishes them and the same way many local establishments clean them I feel I am maintaining a certain amount of consistency by using the products I regardless of whether or not it contains any wax.

If you read my last post you'll see that I've come to the same conclusion that you have. If the manufacturer's products make my Centennials play like when I first opened the box, that's the stuff I think we should use. All I would like is a bit of transparency from the ball manufacturers. Are they adding a final wax polish to the balls before packaging or not?

If a clear answer is not forthcoming, there are other ways to find the truth. A good friend of mine is head of the chemistry department at Skidmore College. His lab can do gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, and NMR analysis of just about anything in any quantity. He told me that back in 80's when coke use was rampant, he used to ask his new students for a $20 bill and almost guarantee them he would find traces of cocaine on it (mostly from street sales and money laundering operations). If he could find that, I'm sure he could find out if there is wax on a new ball.

FWIW I really, really liked the way my balls play when using the Novus products. Nice shine, dust stays off them, good CB action, and chalk wipes right off the CB. Then I found out the stuff contains silanes (silicone). We all know that stuff is illegal to use in play, so I would never recommend it. For use at home, however, I'll probably keep using it on the CB alone, just to keep it staying clean longer. I'll try not to call a foul on myself.

Dan White
11-15-2015, 06:46 AM
FWIW I really, really liked the way my balls play when using the Novus products. Nice shine, dust stays off them, good CB action, and chalk wipes right off the CB. Then I found out the stuff contains silanes (silicone). We all know that stuff is illegal to use in play, so I would never recommend it. For use at home, however, I'll probably keep using it on the CB alone, just to keep it staying clean longer. I'll try not to call a foul on myself.

Me too. I was surprised and disappointed when I saw how variable throw was with Novus. I knew immediately I couldn't use it anymore. I now consider use of products like this to be pretty much cheating, although most people don't realize it. I play mostly straight pool, and I think a lot of 100+ runs we see wouldn't be 100+ runs if Aramith was used instead of something that causes the balls to open so readily.

3kushn
11-16-2015, 08:23 AM
FWIW I really, really liked the way my balls play when using the Novus products. Nice shine, dust stays off them, good CB action, and chalk wipes right off the CB. Then I found out the stuff contains silanes (silicone). We all know that stuff is illegal to use in play, so I would never recommend it. For use at home, however, I'll probably keep using it on the CB alone, just to keep it staying clean longer. I'll try not to call a foul on myself.

Doing a very crude search on SILANES didn't exactly equate to Silicone. I'm not sure if you yourself are a chemist, if not ask your friend. I know people very often confuse Silicone Lubricants with Silicone Rubber, Silica, Liquid Silicone and on and on.

Silanes seem to be a large family of compounds used for a variety of purposes.

Lastly if the product contains what we normally think of, silicone spray lubricant, which is mostly a petroleum based emulsion, wouldn't you think this "oily" surface is more likely to pick up and retain chalk dust? Did Dr Dave wipe a ball with silicone lubricant and test throw? I'd guess there's less throw with a lubricated ball. But some of this stuff is not intuitive.

I'm not arguing with you. Just curious. I've been looking and experimenting with this for many years. I've gone so far as to formulate some of my own solutions. I used to work for a Mfg. of very unique cleaning products. My tinkering worked OK but of course had their own issues I felt were addressed with commercial products.

Lastly, if wax is an issue, and I think it is depending on what wax, then there needs to be another step - Removal. I wonder how long the Aramith wax remains on the balls in normal play?

Island Drive
11-16-2015, 09:49 AM
After reading many threads here about something as simple as cleaning pool balls.....the feeling I'm getting is MANY nowadays are more concerned about something being shiny/pretty/mirror like....and to impress your friends when they come to your home and play pool.
If this is your goal (nothing wrong with that at all) I'd NOT care at all about slightly abrasive cleaners because the "look'' is more important and the skill level will NEVER care or NOTICE the difference.
Nothing wrong with that, it's kinda the way many people think nowadays. My 1960's impression of society nowadays is many wear their personalities on their body or skin or new rims for their vehicle etc. Many nowadays show more of their true self' in this manner than lets say the music of John Denver, which is ALL inner spirit, concern of others with allot love.

I pray for France and the song ''Imagine'' by John Lennon to become a reality....which it never will in my lifetime, and probably yours too.

3kushn
11-16-2015, 11:38 AM
After reading many threads here about something as simple as cleaning pool balls.....the feeling I'm getting is MANY nowadays are more concerned about something being shiny/pretty/mirror like....and to impress your friends when they come to your home and play pool.
If this is your goal (nothing wrong with that at all) I'd NOT care at all about slightly abrasive cleaners because the "look'' is more important and the skill level will NEVER care or NOTICE the difference.
Nothing wrong with that, it's kinda the way many people think nowadays. My 1960's impression of society nowadays is many wear their personalities on their body or skin or new rims for their vehicle etc. Many nowadays show more of their true self' in this manner than lets say the music of John Denver, which is ALL inner spirit, concern of others with allot love.

I pray for France and the song ''Imagine'' by John Lennon to become a reality....which it never will in my lifetime, and probably yours too.

You may be right about some wanting to impress rather than play the game. I can't speak well about pool although if I thought about it I may come with the conclusion that I like throw better than none and why bother cleaning/resurfacing. When It comes to 3C the numbers speak for the differences in clean vs not. I don't play much in public rooms, I either play by myself in my basement or at a friends basement with his equipment. You could say I don't have friends to impress. Its lonely on the dark side. On those rare times I am in a room and carrying a set, the game is much more enjoyable. At least for the first hour, before they start looking, and playing like house balls.

Sloppy Pockets
11-16-2015, 01:09 PM
Doing a very crude search on SILANES didn't exactly equate to Silicone. I'm not sure if you yourself are a chemist, if not ask your friend. I know people very often confuse Silicone Lubricants with Silicone Rubber, Silica, Liquid Silicone and on and on.

Silanes seem to be a large family of compounds used for a variety of purposes.

Lastly if the product contains what we normally think of, silicone spray lubricant, which is mostly a petroleum based emulsion, wouldn't you think this "oily" surface is more likely to pick up and retain chalk dust? Did Dr Dave wipe a ball with silicone lubricant and test throw? I'd guess there's less throw with a lubricated ball. But some of this stuff is not intuitive.

I'm not arguing with you. Just curious. I've been looking and experimenting with this for many years. I've gone so far as to formulate some of my own solutions. I used to work for a Mfg. of very unique cleaning products. My tinkering worked OK but of course had their own issues I felt were addressed with commercial products.

Lastly, if wax is an issue, and I think it is depending on what wax, then there needs to be another step - Removal. I wonder how long the Aramith wax remains on the balls in normal play?

Sorry, I meant siloxanes. Silanes are something else. I know they use silanes to treat fiberglass cloth so it will wet out properly when used with epoxy or polyester resins (I've made a few boats;))

Specifically, Novus 1 and 2 contain polydimethylsiloxane, which is the active ingredient in every silicone lubricant spray I've looked up, as well as being used in mold release sprays (again, I know this from building boats). Stuff doesn't like sticking to it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane


And, no, I am not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination. I had two full years of chemistry in college (general chem and organic chem), but most of that stuff left my brain a long time ago. My friend Ray, who is a brilliant organic chemist (he pioneered the use of microwaves in chemical synthesis) probably wouldn't want to weigh in on the subject because it's likely outside his field of expertise, and that's the way most good scientists are... unlike us pool players, who all seem to have vast amounts of knowledge on everything under the sun, and have no qualms expounding on it all on public forums.