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View Full Version : Narrow Shoulders vs. WIDE Shoulders


JoeyA
11-08-2015, 09:18 AM
This is kind of an offshoot of Dave Alciatore's "vision center" suggestions.

If a person who has narrow shoulders finds their "perfect" vision center, it seems that they will be able to play pool a lot easier than someone who has wide shoulders and who has also found their "perfect" vision center.

In order for a person with wide shoulders to swing the cue along the line of the shot line that is in essence their "perfect vision center", will have to contort their body more than a person with narrow shoulders.

I'm not sure if I am communicating this perspective well enough but I am thinking that some of the problems that players have in positioning their eyes, and body are very much related to the width of the shoulders and possibly even the width of the pupils in their eyes.

Since we can't physically change the width of our pupils or the width of our shoulders, I am just proposing this theory that shoulder width and possibly pupil width have a lot to do with getting in position to pocket a ball consistently well.

If you think about a very wide person (not thick from front to back), essentially a person who has extremely wide shoulders, if they were to use a traditional snooker stance, their cue in their grip hand would be much farther away from the center of the body and the center of their vision center.

A right handed person with narrow shoulders might have a shoulder width of say 20 inches. Another right-handed person with wide shoulders might have a 23 inch shoulder width. The person with the narrow shoulders would have less difficulty in trying to get their cue along the shot line, than the person with the wider shoulders. The back of the cue (in the shooter's grip hand) is further away from the center of their body (in a traditional snooker stance)

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people with wide shoulders can't play pool at a high level. I am saying that I have a theory that it is more difficult for a person with wide shoulders to play at a high level than it is for a person with narrow shoulders.

A person with a wide upper torso may have to turn their hips and shoulders more than a person with narrow shoulders. The more contortions that a player has to make, the more difficult it is for them to play pool at a consistent high level of play.

For the time being, please limit your discussion to narrow shoulders versus wide shoulders. We can discuss the pupil width at a later date.

There are some very studious people on AZ Billiards and I want anyone's opinion, even if it disagrees with mine. I am curious if this is something worth discussing and what you all will have to say.

If you say "poppycock, rubbish, or balderdash", I will not write back with bold, blue ink fonts. :D

Thanks,

JoeyA

336Robin
11-08-2015, 09:24 AM
Not a bad perspective and worth looking at. I think Jimmy Reid used to also suggest different sized cues based on height and wingspan.

marek
11-08-2015, 01:12 PM
This is kind of an offshoot of Dave Alciatore's "vision center" suggestions.

If a person who has narrow shoulders finds their "perfect" vision center, it seems that they will be able to play pool a lot easier than someone who has wide shoulders and who has also found their "perfect" vision center.

In order for a person with wide shoulders to swing the cue along the line of the shot line that is in essence their "perfect vision center", will have to contort their body more than a person with narrow shoulders.

I'm not sure if I am communicating this perspective well enough but I am thinking that some of the problems that players have in positioning their eyes, and body are very much related to the width of the shoulders and possibly even the width of the pupils in their eyes.

Since we can't physically change the width of our pupils or the width of our shoulders, I am just proposing this theory that shoulder width and possibly pupil width have a lot to do with getting in position to pocket a ball consistently well.

If you think about a very wide person (not thick from front to back), essentially a person who has extremely wide shoulders, if they were to use a traditional snooker stance, their cue in their grip hand would be much farther away from the center of the body and the center of their vision center.

A right handed person with narrow shoulders might have a shoulder width of say 20 inches. Another right-handed person with wide shoulders might have a 23 inch shoulder width. The person with the narrow shoulders would have less difficulty in trying to get their cue along the shot line, than the person with the wider shoulders. The back of the cue (in the shooter's grip hand) is further away from the center of their body (in a traditional snooker stance)

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people with wide shoulders can't play pool at a high level. I am saying that I have a theory that it is more difficult for a person with wide shoulders to play at a high level than it is for a person with narrow shoulders.

A person with a wide upper torso may have to turn their hips and shoulders more than a person with narrow shoulders. The more contortions that a player has to make, the more difficult it is for them to play pool at a consistent high level of play.

For the time being, please limit your discussion to narrow shoulders versus wide shoulders. We can discuss the pupil width at a later date.

There are some very studious people on AZ Billiards and I want anyone's opinion, even if it disagrees with mine. I am curious if this is something worth discussing and what you all will have to say.

If you say "poppycock, rubbish, or balderdash", I will not write back with bold, blue ink fonts. :D

Thanks,

JoeyA
I can really relate on this one. I have quite wide shoulders (people tag me usually as a rugby player,ice-hockey player,mma fighter,you can take your pick..) and usually after gym session i have problems with my cue alignment,it seems like i have to shift the cue closer to my dominant eye so i have to be really careful about how much i workout my arms/back before important tournament. And for a record i can play some... ;)

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Patrick Johnson
11-08-2015, 02:21 PM
A person with a wide upper torso may have to turn their hips and shoulders more than a person with narrow shoulders. The more contortions that a player has to make, the more difficult it is for them to play pool at a consistent high level of play.
This is true for me and my (relatively) wide shoulders - I rotate my shoulders and hips/feet to be more parallel with the cue and raise my rear shoulder a little, plus turn my head a little more to keep my sight line aligned with the cue. It's a bit of a contortion at first, but worth getting used to for the improved shot picture and stroke alignment.

pj
chgo

Sloppy Pockets
11-08-2015, 03:10 PM
If a person who has narrow shoulders finds their "perfect" vision center, it seems that they will be able to play pool a lot easier than someone who has wide shoulders and who has also found their "perfect" vision center.

In order for a person with wide shoulders to swing the cue along the line of the shot line that is in essence their "perfect vision center", will have to contort their body more than a person with narrow shoulders.

Ah, ha! My shoulders are about as wide as a Humvee. Finally, a reason why I suck so bad at pool. ;)

bbb
11-08-2015, 04:23 PM
i would think by having your stance more open for narrow shoulder people and more closed for broad shoulder ones should solve the issue....

JoeyA
11-09-2015, 08:48 AM
Marek,

The muscles tighten after a workout and some stretching after a workout might help to loosen them. More yoga and less heavy weight. :wink:

Do you think that getting to your current level of play was?:
1. Very easy
2. Easy
3. Medium difficult.
4. Very difficult.
5. Extremely difficult.

JoeyA

I can really relate on this one. I have quite wide shoulders (people tag me usually as a rugby player,ice-hockey player,mma fighter,you can take your pick..) and usually after gym session i have problems with my cue alignment,it seems like i have to shift the cue closer to my dominant eye so i have to be really careful about how much i workout my arms/back before important tournament. And for a record i can play some... ;)

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Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 08:51 AM
i would think by having your stance more open for narrow shoulder people and more closed for broad shoulder ones should solve the issue....
Yes, that's what's being said, but with more detail about some of the ways that can be done.

pj
chgo

Pidge
11-09-2015, 09:11 AM
The same has been said for fat vs thin players but it doesn't seem to matter if the players out in the effort. Judd Trump and Stephen Lee come to mind. Both have two of the best looking and most reliable cue actions known to man.

iusedtoberich
11-09-2015, 09:15 AM
Ah, ha! My shoulders are about as wide as a Humvee. Finally, a reason why I suck so bad at pool. ;)


Now, now... I have a skinny and narrow frame, and I suck too! We must keep searching for that reason;)

SilverCue
11-09-2015, 09:17 AM
This is true for me and my (relatively) wide shoulders - I rotate my shoulders and hips/feet to be more parallel with the cue and raise my rear shoulder a little, plus turn my head a little more to keep my sight line aligned with the cue. It's a bit of a contortion at first, but worth getting used to for the improved shot picture and stroke alignment.

pj
chgo

Same for me

SilverCue
11-09-2015, 09:21 AM
I've always thought short forearms were an advantage for stroking.

I have long forearms :)

iusedtoberich
11-09-2015, 09:32 AM
Off the top of my head, Nick Ekonomopolous has the widest shoulders in the game today. I always thought it was a good idea to find a pro with a similar build to you, and try to copy their stance. At least as an experiment anyway.

JoeyA
11-09-2015, 09:41 AM
I think this is EXCELLENT ADVICE!

Anyone know how to get in touch with Donny Mills?

JoeyA

Off the top of my head, Nick Ekonomopolous has the widest shoulders in the game today. I always thought it was a good idea to find a pro with a similar build to you, and try to copy their stance. At least as an experiment anyway.

JoeyA
11-09-2015, 09:43 AM
I've always thought short forearms were an advantage for stroking.

I have long forearms :)

And I have always thought that longer forearms were an advantage for stroking, especially power stroking/drawing/screw. :smile:

JoeyA

marek
11-09-2015, 09:30 PM
Marek,

The muscles tighten after a workout and some stretching after a workout might help to loosen them. More yoga and less heavy weight. :wink:

Do you think that getting to your current level of play was?:
1. Very easy
2. Easy
3. Medium difficult.
4. Very difficult.
5. Extremely difficult.

JoeyA

I dont use weights during my exercise,basically my body weight is more than enough to work out.unfortunatelly that means a lot of weight :D and did it take a lot of effort to get my game where it is now? Hell yeah!!! My answer is "very difficult" only because i love the game so much,otherwise my answer would be "impossible" :)


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The Renfro
11-10-2015, 01:22 AM
And I have always thought that longer forearms were an advantage for stroking, especially power stroking/drawing/screw. :smile:

JoeyA

I tend to agree with this Joey... Most of the big strokes I have seen have longer than normal forearms in relative relation to total arm length... I was always able to do the stroke shots I saw Earl and others do until I started to get some years on me and I cannot use most bench curl machines because of forearm length and have to stick to free weights.....

JoeyA
11-10-2015, 08:55 AM
OK, wide shoulders = Almost impossible to play at a very high level. :D

Now we just need a confession from one of those narrow shoulder guys/girls who play at your level or higher. I would bet that the John Schmidts, Alex Pagulayans and such would all say that it wasn't nearly as difficult to reach their level as those of us with wide shoulders.

I can't ask wide shouldered-Dave Bollman....RIP

JoeyA

I dont use weights during my exercise,basically my body weight is more than enough to work out.unfortunatelly that means a lot of weight :D and did it take a lot of effort to get my game where it is now? Hell yeah!!! My answer is "very difficult" only because i love the game so much,otherwise my answer would be "impossible" :)


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marek
11-10-2015, 09:26 AM
OK, wide shoulders = Almost impossible to play at a very high level. :D

Now we just need a confession from one of those narrow shoulder guys/girls who play at your level or higher. I would bet that the John Schmidts, Alex Pagulayans and such would all say that it wasn't nearly as difficult to reach their level as those of us with wide shoulders.

I can't ask wide shouldered-Dave Bollman....RIP

JoeyA
Whoa Joey...hold your horses! my view on my level of play is rather different-while i find it little harder for myself to keep my level of consistency when keeping my gym regime i think my overall level of game is determined by the amount and quality of my practice and the level of tournaments i participate in.
I started to play pool occasionally when i was 16 and i started to practice when i was 20.and i started to cooperate with great instructor Ingo Peter (goes here by nick Ratta) 3-4 years ago and then with David Sapolis little over year ago.i have been practicing 4-5 times a week 2 hours on average during my career,never had that chance to practice 8-10 hours a day like pros do.so i would call myself shortstop with high run of 142 in 14-1 and 7 racks of 8b and 9b.i know that i would be able to go much higher if i practiced more (and believe me-i would love to practice more because i love to practice..). I can kill anybody in the tournament bracket (and i really mean anybody) but i lack the consistency of pros especially in position play/kicking/jumping/defence.they just play little sharper and i know that to equal them would mean to practice more.
Dont get me wrong though,i still have the dream alive and i am slowly moving forward.maybe one day...[emoji5]

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JoeyA
11-10-2015, 02:42 PM
It is no problem Marek. I included the grinning emoticom to demonstrate that I was joking about playing at a high level was nearly impossible for wide shouldered people.

I know how well you play and it is a very high level. I even remember when you didn't play nearly as well as you play now. Ingo would occasionally share some of your videos and you got increasingly better with each passing year.

Best regards,
JoeyA

Whoa Joey...hold your horses! my view on my level of play is rather different-while i find it little harder for myself to keep my level of consistency when keeping my gym regime i think my overall level of game is determined by the amount and quality of my practice and the level of tournaments i participate in.
I started to play pool occasionally when i was 16 and i started to practice when i was 20.and i started to cooperate with great instructor Ingo Peter (goes here by nick Ratta) 3-4 years ago and then with David Sapolis little over year ago.i have been practicing 4-5 times a week 2 hours on average during my career,never had that chance to practice 8-10 hours a day like pros do.so i would call myself shortstop with high run of 142 in 14-1 and 7 racks of 8b and 9b.i know that i would be able to go much higher if i practiced more (and believe me-i would love to practice more because i love to practice..). I can kill anybody in the tournament bracket (and i really mean anybody) but i lack the consistency of pros especially in position play/kicking/jumping/defence.they just play little sharper and i know that to equal them would mean to practice more.
Dont get me wrong though,i still have the dream alive and i am slowly moving forward.maybe one day...[emoji5]

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marek
11-11-2015, 02:59 AM
It is no problem Marek. I included the grinning emoticom to demonstrate that I was joking about playing at a high level was nearly impossible for wide shouldered people.

I know how well you play and it is a very high level. I even remember when you didn't play nearly as well as you play now. Ingo would occasionally share some of your videos and you got increasingly better with each passing year.

Best regards,
JoeyA

Oh irony/sarcasm :eek: You caught me off guard on that one :grin: I will try to catch some good tournament match of mine on camera and will post it here for you guys to do an authopsy :cool:

JoeyA
11-11-2015, 09:38 AM
Oh irony/sarcasm :eek: You caught me off guard on that one :grin: I will try to catch some good tournament match of mine on camera and will post it here for you guys to do an authopsy :cool:

Most of us just wish that we played as well as you.

JoeyA

marek
11-11-2015, 10:14 AM
Most of us just wish that we played as well as you.

JoeyA
Well its all about the point of view. i looked up some of the european players at fargorate who are about the same level as me,they are about 670 so i have quite a long way to go [emoji23]

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