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View Full Version : Do you feel you are more accurate with a smaller tip?


SamLambert
11-09-2015, 06:49 AM
I've been wondering about this for a while and gave it a good try yesterday.

I picked up my old cue, which has a 12.5mm tip and played with it for a while. I usually play with a Z3 shaft turned down to 10.75mm. It seemed to be much harder to do exactly what I wanted to do with the cueball with the 12.5mm tip, as in it's harder to put no spin at all and harder to put the amount of spin that I want.

I think it's quite logical, since it's easier to visualize the contact point with a smaller tip. Let's say hypothetically that I had a 0.1mm tip, it would be exceptionally easy to aim precisely. To the other extreme, aiming precisely with a 25mm tip would be next to impossible.

With that in mind, I ended up asking myself why do bigger tips exist? Why aren't all cues with tips like the ones on a snooker cue?

So why are tips not as small as possible without compromising the shaft properties? I figured that one of my hypothesis might be wrong or that I forgot to consider something in all of this, because for sure cuemakers thought about this long before me and there has to be a reason why bigger tips are very much prevalent.

Thanks!

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 07:08 AM
...it's easier to visualize the contact point with a smaller tip.
Yep - and it squirts less.

...there has to be a reason why bigger tips are very much prevalent.
The trend now is toward smaller tips.

pj
chgo

BeiberLvr
11-09-2015, 07:23 AM
I had no idea you could turn a shaft down when I was 5 months into playing

SamLambert
11-09-2015, 07:25 AM
I had no idea you could turn a shaft down when I was 5 months into playing

Maybe you did not seek information as much then :)

Straightpool_99
11-09-2015, 07:33 AM
Personally I prefer the 11,75 diameter tips.

A small tip obscures less of the view of the object ball and cueball. However, in my club, as far as I know only 3 people including me are playing with small tips like that (all of us play snooker/carom in addition to pool). Almost everyone of the pure pool players have 12.5mm or larger tips and they have all tried smaller ones. Why that is, I don't know.

Zphix
11-09-2015, 07:47 AM
Well, the common thought held has been that a larger tip increases your accuracy in striking the CB but you sacrifice some spin and please your deflection. As the tip gets smaller your accuracy must become greater and greater but you also gain the ability to spin the ball more and you have less deflection.

As it is, I play with an 11.75mm and sometimes it still feels too big. I can't pick up a 12.5 and play accurately anymore. In the future I'll probably have it turned down to 11.5 or 11.25

Anyhow, I prefer a smaller tip radius because it takes up less visual space on the CB and it feels so much nicer running through my bridge.

-Richard

Icon of Sin
11-09-2015, 07:52 AM
Maybe you did not seek information as much then :)

True, I think that was one of the first 5 questions I asked when buying my first cue.

michael4
11-09-2015, 07:59 AM
True, I think that was one of the first 5 questions I asked when buying my first cue.

LOL

anyway, I prefer a smallish tip, it feels more accurate to me.
Others prefer a larger tip, some people probably don't like the way a thin shaft feels in their bridge hand

Colonel
11-09-2015, 08:02 AM
Patrick Johnson is right in that it squirts less. You'd think being thinner the opposite would be true.but it isn't.

I think you have to really have a straight stroke to properly take advantage of the benefits of a smaller diameter. Larger diameters are more forgiving of an errant stroke IMO.

haystj
11-09-2015, 08:26 AM
Isn't a cue ball something like 57 mm in diameter?

Is a shaft 1.5 mm smaller really going to generate a significant more amount of spin?

I can see the logic in theory but have a hard time believing the real world end result.

I guess if you believe you are generating more spin with a smaller shaft, you are.

SamLambert
11-09-2015, 08:30 AM
Isn't a cue ball something like 57 mm in diameter?

Is a shaft 1.5 mm smaller really going to generate a significant more amount of spin?

I can see the logic in theory but have a hard time believing the real world end result.

I guess if you believe you are generating more spin with a smaller shaft, you are.

I don't think it helps put more spin on the cueball, but I do feel more accurate with how much english I want to put on the ball / hitting where I want to.

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 08:31 AM
As the tip gets smaller your accuracy must become greater and greater
Larger diameters are more forgiving of an errant stroke
This is a popular misconception. The size of your tip doesn't make any difference in "forgivability" - but the shape might (a little). A rounder tip will hit (a tiny amount) farther from center than a flatter one for the same center-of-tip position.

Zphix:
...you also gain the ability to spin the ball more
Not really. If your tip is rounder it might seem like that (for the reason described above), but you can hit all the same places on the CB with either tip - and that's what determines the amount of spin.
Zphix:
I prefer a smaller tip radius because it takes up less visual space on the CB
This (plus lower squirt) is the whole ball of wax IMO.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 08:35 AM
Patrick Johnson is right in that it squirts less. You'd think being thinner the opposite would be true.but it isn't.
Yes, many players believe a more flexible shaft will squirt less, but flexibility has little or nothing to do with squirt - it's all about the "end mass".

And anyway, a thin shaft doesn't have to be more flexible - my shaft with a 10mm tip is stiffer than most wider shafts because of its conical taper, yet it's ultra-low squirt (~20" pivot length) because it has less end mass.

pj
chgo

snucar
11-09-2015, 08:41 AM
Sam, just concentrate on improving your game and leave this pointless stuff outside.

BRussell
11-09-2015, 08:44 AM
I like a little bit smaller tip. I don't have any idea whether I'm more accurate, all I know is that when I play with one of those 13mm tips I feel like I'm playing with a flippin broom stick. Just way too big - and I use an open bridge.

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 08:49 AM
Sam, just concentrate on improving your game and leave this pointless stuff outside.
Info is only pointless to those who don't know how to use it. Sam's brain seems able to handle the load.

pj
chgo

mortuarymike-nv
11-09-2015, 08:54 AM
I have several shafts for my main player some of these shafts have been turned down smaller.
Personally I prefer the 12.5 mm shaft.

snucar
11-09-2015, 08:59 AM
Info is only pointless to those who don't know how to use it. Sam's brain seems able to handle the load.

pj
chgo

Every hour Sam's spending on painting ferrules, switching shafts, replacing tips, installing cams etc., it's at least 120 practice shots on the table wasted for nothing.

Colonel
11-09-2015, 08:59 AM
Yes, many players believe a more flexible shaft will squirt less, but flexibility has little or nothing to do with squirt - it's all about the "end mass".

And anyway, a thin shaft doesn't have to be more flexible - my shaft with a 10mm tip is stiffer than most wider shafts because of its conical taper, yet it's ultra-low squirt (~20" pivot length) because it has less end mass.

pj
chgo


I agree, I have an old Scruggs that have 30" shafts with very severe tapers and 11.5 & 11..75mm and these are the stiffest shafts I've ever seen.

Texas Carom Club
11-09-2015, 09:00 AM
Every hour Sam's spending on painting ferrules, switching shafts, replacing tips, installing cams etc., it's at least 120 practice shots on the table wasted for nothing.

probably cant get to a table as much as he can get to a phone, or tablet or laptop or desktop

Icon of Sin
11-09-2015, 09:02 AM
Every hour Sam's spending on painting ferrules, switching shafts, replacing tips, installing cams etc., it's at least 120 practice shots on the table wasted for nothing.

I agree with this. At his level (not to sound condescedning) the main thing he needs to do is shoot. He isnt going to plateau when learning for a little while now. Once he plateaus, then it could be time to experiment.

ENGLISH!
11-09-2015, 09:18 AM
There's always middle ground. No one has to wait & hit a million balls before they can start learning about equipment, etc.

I would not recommend that a 'beginner' that is starting to use english to hit a million balls with a regular high squirt shaft when LD shafts are readily available.

They should still understand the principles of squirt, swerve, etc, but there is no 'need' to get proficient with a high squirt shaft before trying, using, & going to a low squirt shaft.

The same goes for tips. Try em all, in all different sizes & shapes & find the one that fits the individual so that they can then focus on becoming proficient with the 'right' equipment for them.

Pro golfers do this & a number of them have ruined their games when they changed equipment later in their careers after obtaining notable success just to make money to endorse another brand of clubs.

Sometimes a change in equipment can make a huge difference... or at least make things easier for an individual.

Best Wishes to All.

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 09:23 AM
Every hour Sam's spending on painting ferrules, switching shafts, replacing tips, installing cams etc., it's at least 120 practice shots on the table wasted for nothing.
"For nothing" only applies to those who can't use info. And anyway, the same goes for any time you spend here on the internet. Why aren't you practicing?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 09:26 AM
I agree with this. At his level (not to sound condescedning) the main thing he needs to do is shoot. He isnt going to plateau when learning for a little while now. Once he plateaus, then it could be time to experiment.
He doesn't lose anything by learning what he can, not even practice time. In fact it can shorten his improvement curve by a lot.

Why the anti-info discouragement?

pj
chgo

snucar
11-09-2015, 09:36 AM
"For nothing" only applies to those who can't use info.
Sam's been playing for only 5 months. So yes, I do believe all these info can affect/improve his game next to nothing.

Why aren't you practicing?

Because I ain't the one who's aiming to become a pro in 5 years time. Sam is.

Icon of Sin
11-09-2015, 09:44 AM
He doesn't lose anything by learning what he can, not even practice time. In fact it can shorten his improvement curve by a lot.

Why the anti-info discouragement?

pj
chgo
Because he has the rest of his pool career to **** around with all the gadgets and nuances and super shafts the game has to offer. At only 5 months in and wanting to learn to play that's what he need to do the most... learn to play.

He is already rocking, the glove, predators, hockey tape, magic rack... jesus christ if he listened to everyone on here next video he will be wearing Earl's arm weights and ear muffs.

Sam,

My advice to you. You have decent equipment that will last you. Use it. Go shoot and learn the game with what you have. Then after you been in the game a while and have some real ideas on what you think might benefit you, go experiment. You have a good stroke. Watch a ton of pro matches, look at their shot selection and position paths. Try to duplicate that in practice.

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 10:15 AM
At only 5 months in and wanting to learn to play that's what he need to do the most... learn to play.
I'll bet that's exactly what he is doing the most. I notice you're on here "wasting your time" - why aren't you at the table practicing 24/7?

The time he spends here trying to learn is much better spent than all the time others spend here for the jokes and drama. Why aren't you telling them to go practice?

pj
chgo

snucar
11-09-2015, 10:23 AM
I'll bet that's exactly what he is doing the most. I notice you're on here "wasting your time" - why aren't you at the table practicing 24/7?

The time he spends here trying to learn is much better spent than all the time others spend here for the jokes and drama. Why aren't you telling them to go practice?

pj
chgo

One more time, in hope you might get it...


Because I ain't the one who's aiming to become a pro in 5 years time. Sam is.

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 10:39 AM
One more time, in hope you might get it...
I have to assume he spends a lot of time practicing already. Are you suggesting he shouldn't also spend some time learning what others already know? Does that include fundamentals too? How about coaching? Or should he only avoid info that you don't personally like?

pj
chgo

snucar
11-09-2015, 11:00 AM
Are you suggesting he shouldn't also spend some time learning what others already know? Does that include fundamentals too? How about coaching?
Quiz question: what do the highlighted things above have anything to do with the following stuff bellow? Feel free to surprise me.:smile:


painting ferrules, switching shafts, replacing tips, installing cams etc


He is already rocking, the glove, predators, hockey tape, magic rack... jesus christ if he listened to everyone on here next video he will be wearing Earl's arm weights and ear muffs.

Ron Swanson
11-09-2015, 11:13 AM
I had no idea you could turn a shaft down when I was 5 months into playing

I didn't know you could get bored of a cue within 5 months, and go back to your old one.

Texas Carom Club
11-09-2015, 11:14 AM
o boy rockin the glove, now hes diggin in deep huh

Icon of Sin
11-09-2015, 11:15 AM
I'll bet that's exactly what he is doing the most. I notice you're on here "wasting your time" - why aren't you at the table practicing 24/7?

The time he spends here trying to learn is much better spent than all the time others spend here for the jokes and drama. Why aren't you telling them to go practice?

pj
chgo

Because unlike Sam, Im not trying to go pro in 5 years. I have a realistic expectation of where my game can go... and for having a full time job with a wife and two kids that all come first, but adfter that I still put in a ton of table time at home and at poolhalls.

Im not telling them to go practice because they have already been playing for years and dont have that desire to go pro either.

haystj
11-09-2015, 11:29 AM
This thread has taken a very odd turn.

Texas Carom Club
11-09-2015, 11:32 AM
This thread has taken a very odd turn.

I thought this is how all sams threads turn, with all the haters bickering amongst themselves

he should just create another account to get the info he seeks without the bs

Patrick Johnson
11-09-2015, 12:13 PM
Quiz question: what do the highlighted things above have anything to do with the following stuff bellow? Feel free to surprise me.:smile:
OK, only info you don't personally like. Will you send him a list so he'll know what not to waste his time on?

pj
chgo

pdcue
11-09-2015, 12:19 PM
I've been wondering about this for a while and gave it a good try yesterday.

I picked up my old cue, which has a 12.5mm tip and played with it for a while. I usually play with a Z3 shaft turned down to 10.75mm. It seemed to be much harder to do exactly what I wanted to do with the cueball with the 12.5mm tip, as in it's harder to put no spin at all and harder to put the amount of spin that I want.

I think it's quite logical, since it's easier to visualize the contact point with a smaller tip. Let's say hypothetically that I had a 0.1mm tip, it would be exceptionally easy to aim precisely. To the other extreme, aiming precisely with a 25mm tip would be next to impossible.

With that in mind, I ended up asking myself why do bigger tips exist? Why aren't all cues with tips like the ones on a snooker cue?

So why are tips not as small as possible without compromising the shaft properties? I figured that one of my hypothesis might be wrong or that I forgot to consider something in all of this, because for sure cuemakers thought about this long before me and there has to be a reason why bigger tips are very much prevalent.

Thanks!

Because the determining factor is how accurate your delivery is - not how big your tip is.

I play with shafts ranging from 12.05 - 13.75. I play just like me with all of them.

Dale.

RobMan
11-09-2015, 04:24 PM
I thought this was a great topic. As far Sam - well maybe he is sharpening the axe....

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

HawaiianEye
11-09-2015, 05:25 PM
Up until just a couple years back, the only cues I used had 14mm shafts. I picked this up from Jack Taylor, Alfie's brother, over 40 years ago.

The thicker shafts provide a "smoother" ride if you ask me and I can get us much spin with the thicker shafts as I can with the thinner ones.

I still prefer "thicker" shafts and played extremely well with my Predator 314-2 FAT shaft yesterday.

Unless something has changed recently, most of the Chinese and Taiwanese players use cues with standard shafts that are close to 13mm or so.

It is all in getting used to something. Find something that is comfortable for you and then stay with it until you become proficient in using it.