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View Full Version : Darren Appleton's view on Tips - agree or disagree???


Cardigan Kid
07-08-2016, 03:10 PM
From Darren's Facebook page....


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/plan9fromsyracuse/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/plan9fromsyracuse/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg.html)


When a player of Darren's calibre speaks in absolutes, I always listen and try to learn, but this little exchange threw me for a loop.


"Unless u blessed with big stroke and lot of cue power everyone should be playing with a soft tip or super soft"


Now I always thought a soft tip took something off your stroke, and the harder the tip, the more power is transferred to the cue ball, but here it appears Darren disagrees.

What do you think of Darren's absolute view on tips?
And do you follow his advice?

iusedtoberich
07-08-2016, 03:17 PM
I really think pro's opinion's don't carry any more weight than our opinions.

The reason I say this, is across the various pro's, they play with everything under the sun (especially before they were sponsored). From house cues, to Ginacues, to everything in between. Soft tips to hard tips.

With all those equipment differences, they can all do the same shots.

Tramp Steamer
07-08-2016, 03:23 PM
Disagree. One man's meat is another man's poison. Tip choice is highly personal.
Just because a pro makes a statement about something doesn't mean it should be etched in stone. :smile:

billiardthought
07-08-2016, 03:32 PM
Do you also follow earl stricklands advice on yellow glasses arm weights and extensions?

peter_gunn
07-08-2016, 03:38 PM
Disagree. Harder tip - more cue power

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Nine ... corner
07-08-2016, 04:06 PM
Disagree. One man's meat is another man's poison. Tip choice is highly personal.
Just because a pro makes a statement about something doesn't mean it should be etched in stone. :smile:

Hit it on the head Tramp.

Cardigan Kid
07-08-2016, 04:19 PM
Disagree. Harder tip - more cue power

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This is the crux of the matter.
The basic concept of the harder the tip, the more power. I found it interesting that Darren was suggesting the opposite.

JoeyA
07-08-2016, 04:24 PM
This is the crux of the matter.
The basic concept of the harder the tip, the more power. I found it interesting that Darren was suggesting the opposite.

SVB used to play with a Kamui Tan Medium. IDK what he plays with today but I doubt if it is a soft tip.

JoeyA

joewag2
07-08-2016, 05:01 PM
Disagree. One man's meat is another man's poison. Tip choice is highly personal.
Just because a pro makes a statement about something doesn't mean it should be etched in stone. [emoji2]
+ 1 [emoji106]

Something else I heard that sounded logical to me was,.. that pros generally play with a harder tip. Reason: Harder Tips play more consistant and require less maintenance.



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Daryle
07-08-2016, 05:15 PM
If most or all pros agreed on cue makeup (weight & design) and tips, we would probably follow them! But most pros suggest that you find what works best for you. I enjoyed looking through the YouTube videos 'what's in your case' and the wide variety of equipment used! I have a medium tip on my main player and a soft tip on my backup cue. So, could say I'm covered either way.

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Texas Carom Club
07-08-2016, 06:26 PM
nothing works for everyone were all different

/thread

spliced
07-08-2016, 08:54 PM
He might just be talking about soft tips for the Revo shaft specifically.

StraightPoolIU
07-08-2016, 09:41 PM
I think his general point is that you would get more grip and spin with a soft tip therefore generally requiring less ofca stroke to get more or tge same cue ball action. That may or may not be true, but if if it was there would be other tradeoffs like feel, the speed at which the ball comes off the tip, consistency, maintenance, etc. That's why it really comes down to a personal choice. I guess I'm saying I see where Darren is coming from, but I don't think it's clear cut that any tip would be more forgiving or helpful to amatuers.

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shasta777
07-08-2016, 11:36 PM
SVB used to play with a Kamui Tan Medium. IDK what he plays with today but I doubt if it is a soft tip.

JoeyA

Does anyone know what TIP uses now? What do most of the pros like most (I know many will say the brand name that sponsors them - mostly I am trying to get a good idea what is most used by the pros today) Thanks any input is appreciated... :-)

Prey
07-09-2016, 02:50 AM
I don't know. When an elite pro makes a suggestion, which does not put money in his pocket, we should probably listen.:thumbup:

Tramp Steamer
07-09-2016, 04:07 AM
I don't know. When an elite pro makes a suggestion, which does not put money in his pocket, we should probably listen.:thumbup:


Seemingly, yes, but they're no different than the rest of us when it comes to cue tip preference. They use whatever they have become accustomed to.
I know one pro who uses whatever he can get for free, and that includes cues. :smile:

Cracktherack
07-09-2016, 04:15 AM
Efren plays with an Elkmaster tip and will show you how well it plays if you'll wager some money in a game with him.

Kimmo H.
07-09-2016, 04:41 AM
^ His elks are pressed to be fairly hard, he said that in the SVB&Efren TAR video.

Ontopic; I can see Darrens point of view but still I feel that everyone should play with a tip that feels right to them. I strongly prefer medium hardness tips and I have tried almost everything available on my cues ;) I dont care for the lack of feel of soft tips, they lack the snap that I like when striking a ball.
Many greats of the game play with super soft tips, Daz, Souquet for example. There are just as many pros playing with medium/hard tips. SVB, Shaw and Efren with his pressed elks come to mind.

Play with what you like, despite what the other guy says about it ;)

KissedOut
07-09-2016, 08:52 AM
I don't know. When an elite pro makes a suggestion, which does not put money in his pocket, we should probably listen.:thumbup:

For over 100 years golf pros proclaimed a set of ball flight laws that turned out to be completely wrong.

Being able to play very well does not necessarily translate into being very knowledgeable.

fastone371
07-09-2016, 09:36 AM
I prefer Everest Tigers. From what I understand they are a medium tip but get hard with use, probably more so with mine because I frequently break with my playing cue. On 7' tables I break with my player, on my 9' at home I use a break cue unless I am cut breaking, then I use my player. I have tried Kamui softs and mediums but they both seem very much softer than my Everest Tiger. FWIW I am definitely not blessed with a big stroke.

HawaiianEye
07-09-2016, 12:38 PM
If you can make a ball and control the cue ball, you don't need to find a new kind of tip to use. You already have one that works.

alstl
07-09-2016, 01:08 PM
Bear in mind Appleton plays exclusively with an open bridge.

greyghost
07-09-2016, 01:31 PM
He's talking out his keister. Plain and simple.


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couldnthinkof01
07-09-2016, 01:36 PM
I dont mind a soft tip on my shaft, but the ladies like it a bit more firm.

A little pro TIP for ya.

tonythetiger583
07-09-2016, 01:41 PM
If they would stay soft, definitely... but if it's gunna turn into a medium anyways, might as well make it part of the plan.

9Ballr
07-09-2016, 01:44 PM
Very interesting. I always use hard tips.
In my case I feel like I just barely tap the ball and it goes flying.
This whole thing about your stroke needing to be super good on harder tips is the complete opposite of what I have experienced with my playing.
To a point where I wonder if he's just being sarcastic.

HawaiianEye
07-09-2016, 01:50 PM
Very interesting. I always use hard tips.
In my case I feel like I just barely tap the ball and it goes flying.
This whole thing about your stroke needing to be super good on harder tips is the complete opposite of what I have experienced with my playing.
To a point where I wonder if he's just being sarcastic.

That is exactly why I don't want a really hard tip on my cue. I don't want the cue ball to go flying when I barely tap it. I want to feel the cue ball and let my stroke determine whether it goes "flying" or not.

9Ballr
07-09-2016, 02:00 PM
That is exactly why I don't want a really hard tip on my cue. I don't want the cue ball to go flying when I barely tap it. I want to feel the cue ball and let my stroke determine whether it goes "flying" or not.


Well, flying is an exaggeration. lol :)
Let's just say I feel like the cue becomes more efficient and I hardly ever need those super fast strokes in order to get a lot of action
For example I find it much easier to draw across table with a hard tip vs soft or even medium. Also find it much easier in the follow shots.

greyghost
07-09-2016, 02:18 PM
When you have a true stroke and not a jab....tips don't really matter. Cue and cue balls and object balls really don't care. Neither do I


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9Ballr
07-09-2016, 02:39 PM
When you have a true stroke and not a jab....tips don't really matter. Cue and cue balls and object balls really don't care. Neither do I


Meaning, you're saying you have a "true stroke"?
There's a lot more to 'true stroke' than just true stroke vs. a jab.
I seriously doubt most members here are jabbers.
I also seriously doubt most members here have a perfectly true stroke.
I know I don't.

greyghost
07-14-2016, 11:10 PM
Of course we don't and even the best don't some times...hell anyone remember gabe dogging the hell outa that ball in the 04 U.S. Open 9 ball that he won? What I'm saying is that tip worry is pointless and it really don't matter brother. Hard soft fat skinny tall they all play just fine my man


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greyghost
07-15-2016, 05:53 AM
And there is more to it especially on the jab part. Boxer couldn't snap a chin so easily at times like some jab a cue. That ain't the the same and Theres a reason no matter a piston or pendulum or when I used to know this strange fellow bac in college who played with his grip hand palm up and facing outward on the cue holding it underneath......when getting the most action the strokes always full and complete. And the distance the hand travels after hitting a ball in general sop's will travel farther after the strike than a back swing the only diff to say a boxing jab? The boxer wants the hit to come close to full extension as if the cb were only being penetrated to the base of ball location not the event horizon of it. .....now a cross? That's what really similar to a ball hit. The arm should be squared, especially to the rear foot as the body pivots it catches target at 90 letting torque and momentum work with a short not wide movement.....compact and close. Complicated but real simple a baseball batter looks to hit the ball with the hands in the same style of positions wit the bat trailing coming through at that similar bell curve peak of power where the rotation of his body and hands get the bat through to this point. We throw our hands at the target......an extension of the arm but still "arm" similarities in motions and why they work are no myth in differing sports....its even good old English and I barking about hammers and nails....use a hammer long enough and you'll learn to stroke it right too. There are always styles. Pete doesn't build cues like Dennis nor Dennis like Abe! They don't build cues like dpk or miss Laurie or like the guys in the Philippines. I don't make duck calls like nobody...I hijacked my ideas from this really old game we play lol. The end result is but a great package, or product...result.

Quackabushkas and clicks and clacks.

g0 ducks,
-grey gh0st


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greyghost
07-15-2016, 06:14 AM
A friend....aspiring cue smith and player....working on an engineering degree. Mr mark lomas were discussing the "perfections" required to pocket balls and the ranges of accuracy. Was telling me that he did a spreadsheet featuring the mathematical breakdowns of Cp hit distances given "x" as a variable distance to how much mor accurately I've you must hit a ball. I didn't get to see the spread sheet but I mentioned about being a 64/th of an inch off center on the end rail back to tip drill would get you one diamond off. We can feel a thousandth off with our hands on a surface too.......like cutting a cylinder and placing it back together evenly...I have routinely bend small stainless steel instrument sensory lines in "group" very tight together lines that in a panel especially flow together and nearly "snap" perfect into place it's so well fitting. I can tell down to 32 with my eye and a mostly cumbersome but wicked pair of knumbchucks lol swedgelock benders....a lot of the Vikings of the gulf can do it from the wake up too. I seen a fellow say hit her at 8"....use no tape, grasp the tube. Place it and snap bend it on about 10 sec or less. Whip the fat max tape open measure and show to the 32nd of inch..and say "like that, comme ca?!" People actually with repetition can be crazy accurate. Like they got little girls pinging targets like money from a thousand yards.....sipping on yoohoo, watching for pokemon lol. Open sighted long guns well over thousand yard hits within I think 6"......that old man who hip draws and shoots his revolver while tossing aspirins in the air lol......who was the old bow shooter that was like a Ralph greenleah? Exhibitionist, I believe Olympic champion....I've seen pics of him and he looked like the Lone Ranger met Roy Rodgers and hank sr was taught to shoot a bow by davey Crockett r Jim Thorpe....that cat had hands and eyes like a thermoimaging tracking device or sumun. Yahoo wehoo yoohoo? Do you?

-gg


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seven_7days
07-15-2016, 07:25 AM
SVB used to play with a Kamui Tan Medium. IDK what he plays with today but I doubt if it is a soft tip.

JoeyA

I think he even played with a Kamui black hard before that.

JB Cases
07-15-2016, 09:28 AM
I really think pro's opinion's don't carry any more weight than our opinions.

The reason I say this, is across the various pro's, they play with everything under the sun (especially before they were sponsored). From house cues, to Ginacues, to everything in between. Soft tips to hard tips.

With all those equipment differences, they can all do the same shots.

Fully disagree. Those at the very top of performance in any field have the experience and insight to know what works well and what doesn't to a higher level of confidence.

Your example is far too broad. The vast majority of professional caliber players aren't winning as much as Van Boeing or Appleton - same as the top race car drivers are the ones winning the majority of the races.

So I tend to give more credence to the opinions of top players when they speak on performance criteria. That doesn't mean that any given comment is actually true but it does mean that I will take it in and file it away for consideration and testing IF that comment affects my game in some way. (since I already play with a medium-soft tip it doesn't yet)

I know it's romantic to dream that pool is a sport where any amateur knows as much as any pro.....but when it comes to making the cueball do what you want, the amateur does not "know" as much....not physically and not mentally.

In other words - Darren Appleton could, through an earpiece, coach a player your speed in a heads up match and that player would likely beat you easily. Eventually that player would rocket past you just due knowledge transfer alone.

So really, no amateurs don't know as much as pros. Not that pros are always "right" about what they think is happening. For an example we can look up Mike Sigel's views on throw and find that they have been mythbusted by science.

And Darren's tip/stroke correlation may also be busted by science. But to dismiss it out of hand as merely an opinion of equal value to Joe Poolplayer's opinion on the same subject is silly in my opinion.

JoeyInCali
07-15-2016, 09:36 AM
I think he even played with a Kamui black hard before that.

He did.
And Triangle tips used to be the tip of choice for the pros.
The pros opinions do not carry more weight than competent amateurs imo.
A lot of them don't even know the exact specs of their cues.
Efren included.
Mosconi misled thousands with his holding the cue in relation to the balance point.

Mole Eye
07-15-2016, 01:04 PM
Ok, help me out. If I understand Mr. Appleton's statement, he is saying that most players need to play with a soft tip, the idea being that the average player would have better feel and control with them. Is this not the case? We know pros play with pretty much anything, but my experience has been he is correct. Would average players benefit from playing a hard tip on their cue? Just thinking out loud, but controlling the cue ball is usually the issue with most players.

M.G.
07-15-2016, 01:24 PM
Unless u learn proper English! I ain't listening to ya! :eek:

longhorns2
07-15-2016, 02:14 PM
i take him to mean that short strokes with a hard tip are more likely to miscue when you're near the miscue limit. i know people will say the contact time between tips doesn't vary enough to change the miscue limit but my experience with the different tips says otherwise.

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 02:58 PM
i take him to mean that short strokes with a hard tip are more likely to miscue when you're near the miscue limit. i know people will say the contact time between tips doesn't vary enough to change the miscue limit but my experience with the different tips says otherwise.

That was back when they assigned a 1ms contact time to all tips... The Russians proved otherwise using slow motion video but some of the old theories more or less based on solid on solid collision are still out there...

Tips are springs... You change the spring rate you alter certain aspects of the collision like spin/speed ratios and yes even deflection... The only deflection tests I have seen were done at speed to eliminate swerve... Effectively compressing all of the tips into solids regardless of their hardness only established the high end of the scale... We need robots and golf money equipment LOL

longhorns2
07-15-2016, 03:08 PM
That was back when they assigned a 1ms contact time to all tips... The Russians proved otherwise using slow motion video but some of the old theories more or less based on solid on solid collision are still out there...

Tips are springs... You change the spring rate you alter certain aspects of the collision like spin/speed ratios and yes even deflection... The only deflection tests I have seen were done at speed to eliminate swerve... Effectively compressing all of the tips into solids regardless of their hardness only established the high end of the scale... We need robots and golf money equipment LOL

My hypothesis is that a hard tip doesn't spin as much all things equal, but it does put more energy into the ball so that it arrives at the object ball with more spin relative to the soft tip. I'd like to see tests showing a robot hitting the exact same spot low on the cueball for a long draw shot

pt109
07-15-2016, 03:09 PM
Joe Davis, the father of snooker, said the perfect tip is hard, with a soft epidermis.
....I tend to follow that.....many times I wish my tip had been softer for one shot...
...but soft tips tend to lose their shape.

Tramp Steamer
07-15-2016, 04:15 PM
Steamer Cue Sports Ltd. FourSkin tips won't. As a matter-of-fact they tend to grow when properly struck. With a little wine, some mood music, who the hell knows what might happen with a FourSkin.
Available now at your local Pool and Billiards accessories outlet, and of course your neighborhood Walgreens. Your choice of limp, kinda hard, and damned hard. :smile:

one stroke
07-15-2016, 05:36 PM
Fully disagree. Those at the very top of performance in any field have the experience and insight to know what works well and what doesn't to a higher level of confidence.

Your example is far too broad. The vast majority of professional caliber players aren't winning as much as Van Boeing or Appleton - same as the top race car drivers are the ones winning the majority of the races.

So I tend to give more credence to the opinions of top players when they speak on performance criteria. That doesn't mean that any given comment is actually true but it does mean that I will take it in and file it away for consideration and testing IF that comment affects my game in some way. (since I already play with a medium-soft tip it doesn't yet)

I know it's romantic to dream that pool is a sport where any amateur knows as much as any pro.....but when it comes to making the cueball do what you want, the amateur does not "know" as much....not physically and not mentally.

In other words - Darren Appleton could, through an earpiece, coach a player your speed in a heads up match and that player would likely beat you easily. Eventually that player would rocket past you just due knowledge transfer alone.

So really, no amateurs don't know as much as pros. Not that pros are always "right" about what they think is happening. For an example we can look up Mike Sigel's views on throw and find that they have been mythbusted by science.

And Darren's tip/stroke correlation may also be busted by science. But to dismiss it out of hand as merely an opinion of equal value to Joe Poolplayer's opinion on the same subject is silly in my opinion.

Sorry simply not true plenty of amatures have equal knoledge of pro's in all areas of the game ,, the difference is in thier playing ability and thru trial and error they find what works best for them tips shafts strokes what they can make what they can't
I would not give a decided edge to a player of equal talent just because a pro was coaching him , unless it's one pocket , or straight pool or players of little skill to begin with
Execution is where most games are won and lost pro's simply do that on a more consistent basis that's why thier pro's

I actually have found many pro's don't know much outside of what they like thier knoledge is very limited in the science of the game ,
Darren probably is one who's took the time to learn those things

1

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 06:21 PM
Sorry simply not true plenty of amatures have equal knoledge of pro's in all areas of the game ,, the difference is in thier playing ability and thru trial and error they find what works best for them tips shafts strokes what they can make what they can't
I would not give a decided edge to a player of equal talent just because a pro was coaching him , unless it's one pocket , or straight pool or players of little skill to begin with
Execution is where most games are won and lost pro's simply do that on a more consistent basis that's why thier pro's

I actually have found many pro's don't know much outside of what they like thier knoledge is very limited in the science of the game ,
Darren probably is one who's took the time to learn those things

1


Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........

one stroke
07-15-2016, 08:16 PM
Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........
those tests like yours are often public knowledge from every shaft at tip manufacture it's not the hidden national treasure and you have proved my point because you know ,
Your certainly not alone many people who are not pro players know these things not just pro's
I'm pretty sure what tip and shaft works best for me without Darren's opinion who at the end of the day is a player and has no credentials that I know of correct me if I'm wrong that makes him a expert on what every amature player should be playing with


1

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 08:54 PM
those tests like yours are often public knowledge from every shaft at tip manufacture it's not the hidden national treasure and you have proved my point because you know ,
Your certainly not alone many people who are not pro players know these things not just pro's
I'm pretty sure what tip and shaft works best for me without Darren's opinion who at the end of the day is a player and has no credentials that I know of correct me if I'm wrong that makes him a expert on what every amature player should be playing with


1

Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...

BeiberLvr
07-15-2016, 08:58 PM
Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...

I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

onepocketron
07-15-2016, 09:00 PM
IMO the softer tips are a little more forgiving if you put a bad stroke on the shot with regard to miscues and the like. I play with a fairly hard tip, and personally don't like the mushy feel of a soft tip. But that is just me.

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 09:09 PM
I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

When you have world class players actually trying to provide insights and you have amateurs coming out saying "but what about me" there is a problem... You have been here long enough to know that Pro players and most industry members won't come on AZ and their is NO open line of social discourse currently aside from their own personal FB pages... This is not a usual thing for cuesports around the globe... In Asia and Europe a pro player is respected and listened to.. Here an APA 4 will argue with them if they have a 4 cent word that the pro didn't use... Doesn't even have to be a 5 cent one.......

HawaiianEye
07-15-2016, 09:50 PM
Earl Strickland uses and Elk Master tip...so does Efren.

Some people like them pressed.

I've heard Earl say he uses and thinks a "soft" tip plays better.

pt109
07-15-2016, 10:22 PM
I'm curious.

How is that hurting the game?

When you have world class players actually trying to provide insights and you have amateurs coming out saying "but what about me" there is a problem... You have been here long enough to know that Pro players and most industry members won't come on AZ and their is NO open line of social discourse currently aside from their own personal FB pages... This is not a usual thing for cuesports around the globe... In Asia and Europe a pro player is respected and listened to.. Here an APA 4 will argue with them if they have a 4 cent word that the pro didn't use... Doesn't even have to be a 5 cent one.......

I think that is the pros hurting their own game....
...they have been doing it for years.

Being a pro doesn't automatically make you a good poster

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 10:24 PM
Earl Strickland uses and Elk Master tip...so does Efren.

Some people like them pressed.

I've heard Earl say he uses and thinks a "soft" tip plays better.

Actually Earl has not played Elks in years and the Elk I have from Efren tests at over 80...... Things change......

For years Efren played with Duds a friend of his did for him and the one I got in 2010 was a true dud and tested at 73... The ones they had with them this year at derby were likely fakes out of China since when I cut it it was full of some type of black rubber..... I have about 20 boxes of them I will sell cheap from my research....

The Renfro
07-15-2016, 10:25 PM
I think that is the pros hurting their own game....
...they have been doing it for years.

Being a pro doesn't automatically make you a good poster

nor does having an account on AZ......

Big Bad Bern
07-15-2016, 11:56 PM
On the last day in Vegas for the VNEA a couple years ago, I sat through a great conversation between Bob Meucci and Jerry Briesath about tips and cues. Gained a lot of useful info from respected sources and didn't open my mouth, just thanked them when they were done.

Experience does count for a lot in my opinion and when someone like Darren speaks it's worth listening, whether you agree or not.

Bern

The Renfro
07-16-2016, 12:21 AM
On the last day in Vegas for the VNEA a couple years ago, I sat through a great conversation between Bob Meucci and Jerry Briesath about tips and cues. Gained a lot of useful info from respected sources and didn't open my mouth, just thanked them when they were done.

Experience does count for a lot in my opinion and when someone like Darren speaks it's worth listening, whether you agree or not.

Bern

Bob is another one who understands tips being a spring and we talked for a long time at expo last year about synergy before a lying piece of shit told him his tips were made in Florida and undercut pricing... Sadly he now is using tiger tips and those tips out of asia on his shafts but a tip swap is cheap action...

HawaiianEye
07-16-2016, 01:01 AM
Actually Earl has not played Elks in years and the Elk I have from Efren tests at over 80...... Things change......

For years Efren played with Duds a friend of his did for him and the one I got in 2010 was a true dud and tested at 73... The ones they had with them this year at derby were likely fakes out of China since when I cut it it was full of some type of black rubber..... I have about 20 boxes of them I will sell cheap from my research....

So, what does Earl play with? It only was a few months ago when I heard him say it.

HawaiianEye
07-16-2016, 01:09 AM
Yeah no.... I have never walked away from a discussion with a player at the pro level regarding tips where I came away without some added insight from a new perspective... It usually comes down to style of
play and their preferred ball speed and shaft choice that establishes the choice in tips and therefore colors their opinion....

Different shafts and different ball speeds are going to have different synergy with different tips/ spring rates.... Same shaft 2 different players and they may have totally different opinions on a tip....

An amateur may have a mental understanding of tips and "pool physics" but that doesn't mean that they have a concept equal to a professionals even if they have the same tip, same shaft and use the same ball speed because they won't have the refined stroke.. It's applied vs hypothetical.. It's like saying a local fiddle player knows the difference in a fiddle vs a Stradivarius as well as a concert violinist at the top of his art.. "Well they both play a tune"...

Darren's comment actually sheds light on his playing style... He tries to manage his game so there are no big strokes needed.. He can come with them when needed and is in the same vein as Alex, Oscar, Ralf and Corey... On the other side you have players like Shane, CJ, Earl and Shaw who seem to try and over power a table....

I'd suggest seeing which player plays your style and finding out what equipment they are actually using... What is advertised is not always the truth and these guys don't eat if they are missing...

I have spent 6 years testing tips and making them... I can tell you that different tips on different shafts will give you different results PLAYING... I can tell you that a stiff shaft with a soft tip will be totally different when you put a super soft on it even in deflection at lower than high speed.... I can give you hardness ratings and COR ratings and spring rates...

Does this mean I would discount Darren about a soft tip on a shaft I have never played that he relies on to be top 10 in the world? Not on my life.. Not today and likely not tomorrow........

I could have told you that 6 years ago and saved you the research.

one stroke
07-16-2016, 01:34 AM
I could have told you that 6 years ago and saved you the research.

And so could of 10 thousand other people ,,


1

john coloccia
07-16-2016, 04:22 AM
I like Darren and I'm usually rooting for him, but the statement is kind of ridiculous. Just how much "big stroke and cue power" do you need to play a game of pool?? Anyhow, I don't find game changing differences between hard tips and soft tips re: cue ball action. A little bit maybe, but not enough to worry about IMHO.

IamCalvin06
07-16-2016, 05:26 AM
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.

john coloccia
07-16-2016, 05:37 AM
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.

You don't think most of us have tried different tips? 30 years ago, all of this tip nonsense was irrelevant because everyone either played Le Pro/Triangle if they liked a firmer tip, and Elk Master if they liked a softer tip. Now the tip has become this expensive accessory that has to be finely tuned to your skill level/stroke/whatever or you'll suck. It's never mattered that much, and it still doesn't matter that much.

Kimmo H.
07-16-2016, 06:06 AM
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.



I did some research on this matter a while back, link below.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5187960&postcount=73

And after that I have experimentated with some 30 tips more of different hardnesses after that and I stand my ground with the results, softer tip doesnt correlate to more spin, atleast not with my stroke :) I find medium to medium hard tips the nicest to play with but thats just my opinion, yours may differ :o

Tramp Steamer
07-16-2016, 06:16 AM
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.

Blasphemous? Are you nutz?
I, like many others here, have been playing pool for a very long time. I've probably gone through more tips than you've had wake-ups.
In addition, back in the day when I was installing tips, the tip of choice by the best players was a hard one, and almost always single-layered.
For the past 20 years I have been playing One Pocket (germane to the Op's question) with a medium tip, and the past 5 with one of Tom Hays little jewels (also a medium).
What the hell does a pro know that I don't?

erhino41
07-16-2016, 06:46 AM
That is exactly why I don't want a really hard tip on my cue. I don't want the cue ball to go flying when I barely tap it. I want to feel the cue ball and let my stroke determine whether it goes "flying" or not.

I play with a pressed elk master and a very heavy shaft and I can still hit the ball just as softly as anyone else. I like not having to muscle the ball around, however I love having that extra power in the top end.

Mole Eye
07-16-2016, 06:48 AM
I have to believe the tip makes some difference. As I've shared before, I've got a table with very slow cloth, and I've only found one tip that will draw a ball on it. On most tables, I can draw a ball the length of the table, but not on this one. By the way, the tip is a soft triangle, if my memory serves me correctly.

erhino41
07-16-2016, 06:56 AM
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.

I don't remember anyone telling Darren what to do. I certainly don't need him to tell me which tip to use.

john coloccia
07-16-2016, 07:04 AM
Blasphemous? Are you nutz?
I, like many others here, have been playing pool for a very long time. I've probably gone through more tips than you've had wake-ups.
In addition, back in the day when I was installing tips, the tip of choice by the best players was a hard one, and almost always single-layered.
For the past 20 years I have been playing One Pocket (germane to the Op's question) with a medium tip, and the past 5 with one of Tom Hays little jewels (also a medium).
What the hell does a pro know that I don't?

I've always played non-layered tips too, and finally settled on Ultraskins. It's the only layered tip I've ever liked.

Anyway, FWIW I'm sure Darren means well. I've never met him, but he always seems to act like a gentleman.

JB Cases
07-16-2016, 09:29 AM
You don't think most of us have tried different tips? 30 years ago, all of this tip nonsense was irrelevant because everyone either played Le Pro/Triangle if they liked a firmer tip, and Elk Master if they liked a softer tip. Now the tip has become this expensive accessory that has to be finely tuned to your skill level/stroke/whatever or you'll suck. It's never mattered that much, and it still doesn't matter that much.

Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.

HelloBaby-
07-16-2016, 10:37 AM
Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...
I agree that the opinion of contact time to short to matter is the biggest misconception ever.
We don't care about how long but how different. Let's say phenolic contact time is 1/10s and soft leather is 3/10s.
So the contact time of the soft leather is freaking 3 times more than phenolic.
Any college physics student can show you the diffence in the amount of Work, energy transfer, or angular momentum of the CB in both cases.
At a simplest simplest level, ceteris paribus, Soft tip no doubt gives more spin but transfer less energy to the CB than a hard one.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

JoeyA
07-16-2016, 10:40 AM
Patrick Johnson, missing this thread, must be wringing his hands until they blister and bleed.

JoeyA

The Renfro
07-16-2016, 10:42 AM
Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.

When designing the Ki-Techs I was trying to determine the proper COR for each of our grades from Soft to Hard.... I did the blind testing and players can perceive a difference of 5% COR....

Each step up in grade for the Ki-Techs was set at 5% and local players could put them in order from Soft to Hard... Now could they have said a tip was a M/S or Soft or a M/H or M without comparing the hits all of all of them? Possibly not as that was not the focus of the test....

As a caveat COR has more to do with a tips playing grade than the actual durometer reading... Our Soft tests higher on the Durometer than the Medium/Soft or Medium but transfers 5% and 10% less energy respectively....

Tramp Steamer
07-16-2016, 11:24 AM
Patrick Johnson, missing this thread, must be wringing his hands until they blister and bleed.

JoeyA

Indeed, indeed. :smile:

pt109
07-16-2016, 11:39 AM
Patrick Johnson, missing this thread, must be wringing his hands until they blister and bleed.

JoeyA

Indeed, indeed. :smile:

And PJ's opinion would be worth perusing...
...most of my favorite posts by PJ were on the main forum...
...on NPR, we were on opposite sides, often.

I hope his ban is not permanent

The Renfro
07-16-2016, 01:23 PM
And PJ's opinion would be worth perusing...
...most of my favorite posts by PJ were on the main forum...
...on NPR, we were on opposite sides, often.

I hope his ban is not permanent

PJ would post whatever he found on Dave's site he thinks pertinent... Like

most contact times (i.e., for most tips and most speeds) are very close to a thousandth of a second (0.001 sec).
a soft tip at slow speed has a longer contact time (about 0.002 sec), but still extremely small.
a very hard tip (e.g., phenolic) at fast speed has a shorter contact time (about 0.0005 sec).

even links the Russian videos but they never tested a soft tip. They tested phenolic .8ms and a moori medium 2ms if you follow the link http://dbkcues.ru/2011/06/12/another-couple-of-hs-video-now-24-000-fps/?lang=en..... Not sure why the grades and the phenolic contact time was reported incorrectly but the video refutes all 3 claims above....

Based upon the testing it is possible that a soft or extras soft tip may exceed 3ms or even approach 4ms widening that window on being able to influence things during contact and bringing shaft movement more into the equation.. Maybe we cannot react fast enough but thru practice and preparation things can get interesting....

john coloccia
07-16-2016, 01:44 PM
It's all very interesting, but from a player's perspective why is it any more complicated than try different tips and see which one you like best?

The Renfro
07-16-2016, 01:49 PM
It's all very interesting, but from a player's perspective why is it any more complicated than try different tips and see which one you like best?

Green to you sir... That's pretty much what it comes down to... Recommendations can put you into a zipcode but in the end you likely have to find the final address....

one stroke
07-16-2016, 06:10 PM
Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.

I'm pretty sure there would be several pro's who could tell the tips at opposite ends of the spectrum ones close would obviously be harder
Im pretty sure I can tell between a Elk Master and a Lepro with in 5 shots by not only feel but sound along with the results of the shot in fact I'm going thru it right now as I just had 2 shafts re tipped with super soft Kumui's some of the soft shots I can hardly feel feed back at all

1

greyghost
07-19-2016, 10:02 AM
With a higher "grip" of a soft and negligible longer contact, which of course also depends on the shafts end mass, and the higher transfer of energy with a harder tip.........no wonder why a triangle is pretty dam swell. It's a medium tip. Right in the middle. I mean I don't like a dodgy whippet cue/shaft, but I also don't want to play with any rigid pipe of a cue, my own cues play more on the stiff side but in general a cue reall should be a middle ground player.....just like a jump break is neither the best for breaking nor for jumping but they do both very well, like a masse cue won't jump as easily as a jumper, but it can jump. What's the best tip? The one that does it all as best as it could. Saying hard/soft is best ca only be for particulars.....just like we would never as a player or an instructor advise another player "oh shoot all the shots softly, or shoot all the shots at break speed. The typical playing speed is "medium" the middle.....but of course you will have to perform very soft shots and some very speedy powerful shots.....but no souls arguing that point. I think it should apply directly to the cues and their tips as well. I'm a triangle kid! I talk in triangles. I see through triangulation....I think this is a conspiracy against the greyghost by tweeten lol. Triangles everywhere!

I see dead people, (fog breath out)
Greyghost


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

john coloccia
07-25-2016, 11:04 PM
So I've played with other people's cues that have soft tips on them, but never put one on my own cue. I've always used Le Pro, Triangle, and now Medium and Hard layered tips, and I never noticed much difference in cue ball action compared to the soft tipped cue, just casually shooting around with them for a couple of minutes.

I decided to put it to the test. I installed a very soft tip on my main playing cue, and committed to keeping it on there for a couple of weeks. I have a lot of time on it now, including a couple of 14.1 matches, and here are my personal conclusions:

- Softer tip was generally nice for 14.1. I could let my stroke out a bit without slamming balls around the table, so speed control was generally a little easier

- I noticed exactly zero difference in the amount of spin I was getting for most shots. The only adjustment for me was getting used to hitting the balls just a touch harder than normal. I changed nothing else.

- Now here's what I didn't expect. Long draw shots were dramatically WORSE. I had to really slam the ball to get enough speed/spin. For example, if I'm shooting about the length of the table, a stop shot for me is normally just a nice, comfortable stroke. With the soft tip, that same stroke ended up with a sluggish cue ball and it was rolling by the time it got to the object ball. I suddenly had to juice it just to get a long stop shot. I was fully expecting to see no difference. This really surprised me.

Anyhow, I'm going back to medium and hard tips. Until I got to some stroke shots, I was very unexpectedly liking the soft tip a lot, but I started missing some long shots that I shouldn't miss because I had swing the cue so much harder than normal sometimes.

I know it runs against the conventional wisdom, but I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience?

Johnny Rosato
07-26-2016, 04:26 AM
[QUOTE=The Renfro;5609546]Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...[/QUOTE

Kimmo H.
07-26-2016, 04:33 AM
So I've played with other people's cues that have soft tips on them, but never put one on my own cue. I've always used Le Pro, Triangle, and now Medium and Hard layered tips, and I never noticed much difference in cue ball action compared to the soft tipped cue, just casually shooting around with them for a couple of minutes.

I decided to put it to the test. I installed a very soft tip on my main playing cue, and committed to keeping it on there for a couple of weeks. I have a lot of time on it now, including a couple of 14.1 matches, and here are my personal conclusions:

- Softer tip was generally nice for 14.1. I could let my stroke out a bit without slamming balls around the table, so speed control was generally a little easier

- I noticed exactly zero difference in the amount of spin I was getting for most shots. The only adjustment for me was getting used to hitting the balls just a touch harder than normal. I changed nothing else.

- Now here's what I didn't expect. Long draw shots were dramatically WORSE. I had to really slam the ball to get enough speed/spin. For example, if I'm shooting about the length of the table, a stop shot for me is normally just a nice, comfortable stroke. With the soft tip, that same stroke ended up with a sluggish cue ball and it was rolling by the time it got to the object ball. I suddenly had to juice it just to get a long stop shot. I was fully expecting to see no difference. This really surprised me.

Anyhow, I'm going back to medium and hard tips. Until I got to some stroke shots, I was very unexpectedly liking the soft tip a lot, but I started missing some long shots that I shouldn't miss because I had swing the cue so much harder than normal sometimes.

I know it runs against the conventional wisdom, but I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience?

Im in the same boat with you. I dont personally see any benefits of a soft tip for my game. I like harder tips for the same reason you do, long shots are easier for me with them :)

bdorman
07-26-2016, 10:00 AM
I suspect Appleton is saying that it's easier to control your stroke with a soft tip.

That might be true, but IMHO the major factor is what kind of tip you learned on.

Ahgao86
11-10-2016, 11:24 PM
So I've played with other people's cues that have soft tips on them, but never put one on my own cue. I've always used Le Pro, Triangle, and now Medium and Hard layered tips, and I never noticed much difference in cue ball action compared to the soft tipped cue, just casually shooting around with them for a couple of minutes.

I decided to put it to the test. I installed a very soft tip on my main playing cue, and committed to keeping it on there for a couple of weeks. I have a lot of time on it now, including a couple of 14.1 matches, and here are my personal conclusions:

- Softer tip was generally nice for 14.1. I could let my stroke out a bit without slamming balls around the table, so speed control was generally a little easier

- I noticed exactly zero difference in the amount of spin I was getting for most shots. The only adjustment for me was getting used to hitting the balls just a touch harder than normal. I changed nothing else.

- Now here's what I didn't expect. Long draw shots were dramatically WORSE. I had to really slam the ball to get enough speed/spin. For example, if I'm shooting about the length of the table, a stop shot for me is normally just a nice, comfortable stroke. With the soft tip, that same stroke ended up with a sluggish cue ball and it was rolling by the time it got to the object ball. I suddenly had to juice it just to get a long stop shot. I was fully expecting to see no difference. This really surprised me.

Anyhow, I'm going back to medium and hard tips. Until I got to some stroke shots, I was very unexpectedly liking the soft tip a lot, but I started missing some long shots that I shouldn't miss because I had swing the cue so much harder than normal sometimes.

I know it runs against the conventional wisdom, but I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience?

Reviving this thread! I'm playing with a 3/8x11 to wood joint Prather Cue with a maple shaft and I've always used a moori medium tip. When I got back to playing a couple of months ago, I would say that the leather tip has aged and has grown a little bit harder but still pretty much medium hard. My recollection of that tip was that the "feel" and the sound of the tip hitting the ball was good. I kinda enjoyed it. I subsequently changed my tip to a kamui clear black SS, and I would say that the crisp sound is lesser, however I feel that I've got more control over the cue ball. I can play further off the center with lesser fear of a miscue. With regards to drawing the cue ball, I kinda feel that a softer tip actually allows me to draw the cue ball easier, but I might be wrong. I will be receiving a new OB+ Classic shaft with a medium tip and I will try that out, then subsequently change to a softer tip and post my findings here. In the meantime, anyone else has got any updates to post over the last few months? :grin:

HawaiianEye
11-10-2016, 11:41 PM
I just changed the tip on my playing shaft and I'm hoping I like it. I will pick it up tomorrow and try it out Sunday. I use a Predator 314-2 FAT shaft on a Titlist butt.

I hated the Everest tip that was on the shaft when I got it, so I changed it to a Kamui Black Super Soft. When that tip was first put on, I didn't like it either. It was too tall and seemed too sticky or something. After playing with it for a while, I cut a few layers off and it played a lot better. That tip lasted for a few years because I only play once a week. Last Sunday, I decided it was too worn down and gave it to the cue repair guy to be replaced.

I haven't experimented with tips in a long time, so I decided to replace it with a Kamui Black Medium. According to the hardness scale, it is quite a bit harder and is close to a Le Pro. I don't consider Le Pro to be a hard tip and always liked them and used them for years, until they seemed to be unreliable in their consistency when you bought them. I hope I like this tip, but it may take a bit of playing to adjust to the change in hardness.

I don't like "babying" the balls, so I hope I don't have to adjust my stroke down too much to compensate for the extra "bounce" the harder tip is going to give me.

BmoreMoney
11-11-2016, 12:15 AM
Does anyone know what TIP uses now? What do most of the pros like most (I know many will say the brand name that sponsors them - mostly I am trying to get a good idea what is most used by the pros today) Thanks any input is appreciated... :-)


I believe Tao (sp?) are pretty popular with the pros. I always used to just play whatever was on the cue when I picked it up, and honestly I didn't really know the differences from tip to tip. I had always heard that soft tips help apply better spin so when it was time to get a tip put in I went with a soft because I spin the A LOT. I also like soft because I " feel " like it gives me more feel than the harder ones and playing a lot of one hole I encounter a lot more of touch shots and slow rolls than in 9 ball. Been using Elk masters for a while now and are happy with them plus I don't really care for trying a bunch of different tips. To me it also seems soft retains chalk better too. One downside is you have to be more careful when scuffing / maintenance than the hard ones imo. Not a huge fan of layered either.

CreeDo
11-11-2016, 12:07 PM
I dunno if anyone else mentioned this, but maybe darren's comment is mostly about maintenance...

i.e. there's no reason to go out of your way for a harder tip
unless you're a big-stroke type of player who's pounding the cue ball firmly all the time,
in which case a soft one might mushroom so fast it becomes a hassle.

Otherwise, he could be talking about the fact that harder tips seem more prone to miscues when you
hit the extreme edges/bottom of the cue ball. I think that's because the hard material doesn't roughen up
as easily when the tip is scuffed, and/or it doesn't trap the chalk particles quite as well.

So if you need extreme draw for example, it's probably easier to just hit
close to the miscue limit and use less force, vs. hitting well within the safe zone for draw,
but having to put a giant stroke on it.

TomHay
11-12-2016, 02:36 PM
I have done thousands of shots testing my tips and in many ways.

The one shot I enjoy most is marking the table for the object ball to be one foot from the side pocket and another marking for the cue ball one foot from the other side and off set 1/4 to 1/2 a ball from the outside of object ball meaning I need extreme inside English to make the ball in the side and have the cue ball reverse towards the end rail.

The softer tip given the same stroke will spin further towards the back rail but not travel as far to that rail and you can hit it more aggressively and it still won't get there, The harder tip will allow you to get there with a very aggressive stroke but depending on your ability, concentration and stroke can make the ball harder to make but this is what can/could separate a player that plays 6 - 8 hours a day to a person that plays once a week.

On speed cloth and speed rails playing 1 pocket I prefer to go soft as I want that little more grip on short shots to help me get around for safety's etc. For games like 9 ball, speed cloth speed rails I go to a medium as I may need that more aggressive stroke to get me there. A little younger, freewheeling with more confidence I might go with a Hard.

On the Pro players and money sadly I think the 115th ranked player in Pool will make about 4-5 thousand dollars, not including expenses. The 115th ranked Golfer, well, he is making about a Million Dollars not including endorsements. I prefer to play with Gentlemen bets say $5.00 and $10.00 a game and just enjoy playing :smile:

alstl
11-12-2016, 02:54 PM
I would never disagree with a champion like Appleton but I would point out he plays exclusively with an open bridge which changes things a little.

tableroll
11-12-2016, 04:18 PM
From Darren's Facebook page....


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/plan9fromsyracuse/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/plan9fromsyracuse/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg.html)


When a player of Darren's calibre speaks in absolutes, I always listen and try to learn, but this little exchange threw me for a loop.


"Unless u blessed with big stroke and lot of cue power everyone should be playing with a soft tip or super soft"


Now I always thought a soft tip took something off your stroke, and the harder the tip, the more power is transferred to the cue ball, but here it appears Darren disagrees.

What do you think of Darren's absolute view on tips?
And do you follow his advice?

I was told the chalk impregnated "Blue Diamond" is a good tip. Just like Elkmaster is chalk impregnated. Has anyone tried the Blue Diamond?

trob
11-13-2016, 03:18 AM
I don't know. When an elite pro makes a suggestion, which does not put money in his pocket, we should probably listen.:thumbup:

That's what I always say.. but most of the nits on here seem to think they are and no more then world champs lol

I recently went to a soft tip and can tell you I love it. The hit just feels better. I'm getting all the spin I want and I feel coming off the rail when I can only see a small piece of the cue ball the hit is more consistent..

Bavafongoul
11-13-2016, 11:41 AM
It was personally interesting to read Darren's comments about tips.

3 years ago I became displeased playing with Kamui Black medium due to its tendency to glaze.

I switched to the Kamui Clear Black and ordered both soft and super-soft versions from Shooter 08.

Tom is a great guy and we discussed various brands of tips since he's with Wisconsin Billiard Supply.

He suggested the Clear series and recommended going down in hardness which turned out great.

I now play with Kamui Clear Black in soft hardness and it is wonderful......it's the best tip changeover.

The change to a softer cue tip allows me increased control and better feel when I stroke the cue ball.

IMO, feedback on your cue stroke is very important which is why all my ivory joint cues are built alike.

My cues (except the EP cue) use Kamui Clear Black soft tips in a soft hardness & IMO, Darren was right


Matt B.

Carolina_Giant
11-13-2016, 01:50 PM
From Darren's Facebook page....


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/plan9fromsyracuse/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/plan9fromsyracuse/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160708-175918.jpg.html)


When a player of Darren's calibre speaks in absolutes, I always listen and try to learn, but this little exchange threw me for a loop.


"Unless u blessed with big stroke and lot of cue power everyone should be playing with a soft tip or super soft"


Now I always thought a soft tip took something off your stroke, and the harder the tip, the more power is transferred to the cue ball, but here it appears Darren disagrees.

What do you think of Darren's absolute view on tips?
And do you follow his advice?

Ok, three things that actually matter with regard to hardness, diameter, and layered versus non layered.

1. A hard tip produces a different feel in the hit than a soft tip will. I have found with my cues over years of shooting a soft tip combined with a wood to wood joint equals almost no vibration or feeling through the shot. A hard tip with a stainless steel joint produces a shot I feel from contact all the way to my back hand. Depending on which shot feels right to you should help guide your tip selection.

2. Diameter: a wider diameter in my experience makes it more difficult to miss the target area on a cue ball, but can magnify squirt if my back arm isn't in perfect alignment through the shot. A smaller tip like an 11.75 makes it easier to miss the targeted spot, but also can impart unintended spin if my stroke is not clean (hence the less forgiving element, but also can be lower deflection)

3. Layered vs non layered: A layered tip, if glued together properly, is less likely to mushroom out than a single layer tip. A harder tip will also mushroom out much less often than the soft and super soft tips. Therefore, the hardness of the tip and construction play a factor in how much maintenance a tip requires.

What I believe Darren may have been trying to get at is that unless you shoot the cue ball very hard on a regular basis, you are not going to shoot enough games or hard enough to make your tip require more maintenance. A softer tip can be much more forgiving as well as part of the absorption I mentioned in the first point with the feel of the hit. Also if you are not dedicated to learning a clean stroke to apply proper english, a softer tip allows you to impart spin (see several posts about the difference between spin and english), with a little more successful results for position and cheating pockets rather than having to stroke a shot purely.

Unless this is what Darren was trying to hint at, I'm not sure why he would make that kind of statement

Bca8ball
11-13-2016, 10:38 PM
Many missed the intent.
This thread (as many others) quickly changed into another what tip is best thread.

The intent was isolated to Darren's suggested tip on the REVO shaft.
When Fred said he changed to the same med tip he had been using on his other shafts, Darren suggested that a softer tip was a better choice on the REVO shaft.

They come with the soft tip, I have tried a Med but after one session I switched back.
Considering going even softer but I plan on giving the soft a little more time first.

That said, obviously everyone's opinion is as good as the next but the REVO shaft isn't.
With my stroke I agree with his suggestion.