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tonythetiger583
07-08-2016, 10:37 PM
I'm trying to work out a system or guidelines to using Back Hand English (BHE) and Front Hand English (FHE), but I don't really know much about it. I just came up with the idea today, and I was hoping I could get help sorting it all out.

So what I know up until this point:

- with BHE, the QB comes off straight at the target and after a while swerves in.
-FHE will squirt out more initially before swerving back in.

My approach has been to start with 100% BHE for the spin I'm putting on it, and subtract BHE, and add enough FHE to compensate for the swerve, depending on the shot, speed, etc.

I play on a barbox, so needing a shorter bridge is not uncommon.

I think the halfway point between the tip and the Natural Pivot Point (let's call it the Halfway Pivot Point), let's you use a 50/50 blend of BHE/FHE to achieve the same results as 100% BHE.

So I think it'll let me use pivot English with different bridge lengths


For example if I use the Halfway Pivot, I use 50% BHE and 50% FHE, it'll go straight down the line of aim. If I need to add squirt to negate swerve, I minus both in their relative proportions and add the FHE.

And I think it let's you move up and down your shaft like an instrument.

So let's say the distance between your Natural Pivot Point is and Halfway Pivot Point is 5 inches (or you divide whatever the distance is by 5):

Natural Pivot Point: 100% BHE / 0% FHE
+1 inch: 90% BHE / 10% FHE
+2 inches: 80% BHE / 20% FHE
+3 inches: 70% BHE / 30% FHE
+4 inches: 60% BHE / 40% FHE
Halfway Pivot Point: 50% BHE / 50% FHE

And this will replicate the cue traveling straight down the aim line like your natural pivot point, and you just mix in extra FHE to compensate for the swerve.

tonythetiger583
07-09-2016, 07:08 PM
Okay, so tested it out on the table and the Halfway pivot point was a bust.
But I think I have it figured out.

Level Cue

-So BHE will stay on the shot line immediately before eventually swerving off.
-FHE will squirt off more initially before swerving onto the shot line.
-Usually you add BHE first, and tack on increasing amounts of FHE to compensate for the swerve.

-If you use any point other than the natural pivot point, you need to blend BHE and FHE and then add on FHE to counteract the swerve.

-The shorter your bridge, the higher the proportion of FHE starting from none at the pivot point. The shorter your bridge the less BHE will squirt the ball over, so you need to use FHE to add more squirt.

-It works the same for increasingly longer bridges, except you need to add FHE in the opposite direction, before you blend in the BHE. The longer the bridge. the more BHE will squirt over, so you need to use FHE to squirt it in the opposite direciton.

That is only to get you to make the ball go straight down the shot line and you still need to add a bit of FHE for swerve.

Elevated Cue:
- Swerve effects are greater so you need to use pure FHE to get the ball to squirt over as much as possible before hitting your target.
-If FHE isn't enough, parallel squirts about twice as much as FHE.
- You can also use BHE and hit the ball thick and use the elevation and swerve to thin the ball.

I also figured out something I think is neat:
-If you aim thick, you can hit a ball harder to make it squirt over more, or you can add English, hit it soft and have the ball swerve over to still make the ball.

It forms this neat little triangle of Aim, Spin, Speed where you can do a sort of pick any two thing.

So you can Aim anywhere within reason, and use any speed, make the ball, but you have to apply the specific spin.

Or you can Aim anywhere, use any spin, but you have to use the specific speed.

You can also use any speed you want, any spin you want, but don't get to aim where you want I guess.

tonythetiger583
07-09-2016, 07:13 PM
Also the BHE FHE kinda looks like a ratio within a ratio.

So first is the BHE:FHE ratio is for the shot line in terms of where you bridge alone your cue.

Ex: 80% BHE/ 20% FHE for a slightly shorter bridge.

Then that proportion of BHE/FHE has to fit within a larger ratio of the BHE to FHE ratio for squirt and swerve.

so it would look something like

( (BHE:FHE) : FHE )

The Renfro
07-09-2016, 07:21 PM
There is no swerve component with a level cue.... Swerve only occurs if you have some downward attack angle.... I have a video somewhere proving this and Dr Dave's site goes over that as well......

tonythetiger583
07-09-2016, 07:39 PM
But the cue's not completely level. Unless you're putting top, the rail's gunna be in the way.

The Renfro
07-09-2016, 08:20 PM
But the cue's not completely level. Unless you're putting top, the rail's gunna be in the way.


True statement..... only in certain instances will the cue be level but you can still stroke thru the ball with the tip being on a level plane... Controlling attack angle and the tip will go a long way toward helping you work thru your project.....

iusedtoberich
07-09-2016, 08:26 PM
My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Gorramjayne
07-09-2016, 09:46 PM
My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Are you playing an LD shaft?

Note that your front end mass of the cue pushes the CB away from it, so just as it causes left/right squirt, it can push the CB into/away from the slate and increase/decrease initial friction with the cloth at the moment the CB takes off. So with a non-LD shaft a lot of top will momentarily push the CB into the cloth as the CB takes off which may cause the swerve you're observing, whereas a low hit will push the CB up away from the cloth so the spin doesn't take immediately and the swerve is slightly delayed.

Basically the lower the deflection of your shaft, the higher you can hit without squirt AND swerve affecting your line, and with a 13mm+ high deflection shaft you can cheat swerve by hitting a little lower.

Mind also that most shots you line up with BHE you're going to pop pretty hard to avoid swerve which is not great for controlling CB placement.. I personally find that if I'm in a situation where I'm tempted to use BHE it's because I did something wrong with CB control on the previous shot.

That may not sound helpful, but in all reality you can drastically reduce your dependence on all forms of english, including parallel, by really mastering your follow and draw control, some of this may be helped by finding a way to forward-weight your cue a little bit more.

iusedtoberich
07-10-2016, 06:48 AM
I play with a 314 series shaft. If you put the CB 1" from the rail, and shoot at a ball across the table (short ways), the CB can swerve almost a full ball width. That's my experience.

These pivot systems I just can't get behind, when I see the CB move so much. They don't make any sense to me. To each his own:)

dr_dave
07-10-2016, 07:30 AM
Check out the videos and articles on the BHE/FHE resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#BHE). They cover BHE, FHE, and combos of BHE/FHE in great detail.

Enjoy,
Dave

Cornerman
07-10-2016, 08:06 AM
My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Ditto. It starts to swerve quicker with follow, given the same stroke speed, english offset and cue angle.

Freddie <~~~ it's a Coriolis thing

dr_dave
07-10-2016, 09:04 AM
Ditto. It starts to swerve quicker with follow, given the same stroke speed, english offset and cue angle.This is caused by two effects. For those interested, they are described and illustrated in detail here:

draw/follow squirt/swerve effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#tip_height)

Enjoy,
Dave

Cornerman
07-10-2016, 12:10 PM
I'm trying to work out a system or guidelines to using Back Hand English (BHE) and Front Hand English (FHE), but I don't really know much about it. I just came up with the idea today, and I was hoping I could get help sorting it all out.

So what I know up until this point:

- with BHE, the QB comes off straight at the target and after a while swerves in.
-FHE will squirt out more initially before swerving back in.

My approach has been to start with 100% BHE for the spin I'm putting on it, and subtract BHE, and add enough FHE to compensate for the swerve, depending on the shot, speed, etc.

I play on a barbox, so needing a shorter bridge is not uncommon.

I think the halfway point between the tip and the Natural Pivot Point (let's call it the Halfway Pivot Point), let's you use a 50/50 blend of BHE/FHE to achieve the same results as 100% BHE.

So I think it'll let me use pivot English with different bridge lengths


For example if I use the Halfway Pivot, I use 50% BHE and 50% FHE, it'll go straight down the line of aim. If I need to add squirt to negate swerve, I minus both in their relative proportions and add the FHE.

And I think it let's you move up and down your shaft like an instrument.

So let's say the distance between your Natural Pivot Point is and Halfway Pivot Point is 5 inches (or you divide whatever the distance is by 5):

Natural Pivot Point: 100% BHE / 0% FHE
+1 inch: 90% BHE / 10% FHE
+2 inches: 80% BHE / 20% FHE
+3 inches: 70% BHE / 30% FHE
+4 inches: 60% BHE / 40% FHE
Halfway Pivot Point: 50% BHE / 50% FHE

And this will replicate the cue traveling straight down the aim line like your natural pivot point, and you just mix in extra FHE to compensate for the swerve.
Where are you located? It'd be easier to discuss what you're trying to do while at a table.

I'd say that you're overthinking, but then again, I like what you're thinking from an instructional and informational point of view.


Freddie <~~~ can't add, let alone complex BHE:FHE computations

Skippy27
07-10-2016, 10:32 PM
My only question would be...... Why even use a stroke or aim that has so many different variables that will change with shot distance, cleanseliness of balls and type of cloth?

I understand using it sometime when you absolutely have to get the cue ball somewhere though and maybe that is what you speak of.

The Renfro
07-10-2016, 10:41 PM
My only question would be...... Why even use a stroke or aim that has so many different variables that will change with shot distance, cleanseliness of balls and type of cloth?

I understand using it sometime when you absolutely have to get the cue ball somewhere though and maybe that is what you speak of.

because knowledge is power and even after this exercise fades into his past part of it that works the best will be part of his game... Some players spend their whole life by feel and that is 100% fine but some players want/need that little bit of math/science to keep them in touch with the journey......

tonythetiger583
07-11-2016, 02:42 AM
Check out the videos and articles on the BHE/FHE resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#BHE). They cover BHE, FHE, and combos of BHE/FHE in great detail.

Enjoy,
Dave

Thanks, that's where I got most of my information about the subject, along with the videos by Joe Tucker:)

tonythetiger583
07-11-2016, 02:43 AM
Where are you located? It'd be easier to discuss what you're trying to do while at a table.

I'd say that you're overthinking, but then again, I like what you're thinking from an instructional and informational point of view.


Freddie <~~~ can't add, let alone complex BHE:FHE computations

I'm in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

tonythetiger583
07-11-2016, 02:47 AM
So I've noticed that for a lot of shots, especially when shooting with the elevation on a draw shot, with Parallel, the squirt and swerve seems to cancel out.

I think that's why a lot of player's who play parallel are okay playing with around a half tip to a tip of english. Unless I'm reading it wrong, there doesn't seem to be a lot of compensation on certain shots?

Is there a need for FHE english? As far as I can tell, it's purpose is to squirt over more than BHE to compensate for swerve over longer distances.

My question is can't you just use parallel and then add in bhe to make up the remainder?

dr_dave
07-11-2016, 08:26 AM
So I've noticed that for a lot of shots, especially when shooting with the elevation on a draw shot, with Parallel, the squirt and swerve seems to cancel out.... only with the right amount of elevation for a given shot speed, shot distance, and ball/cloth condition.

I think that's why a lot of player's who play parallel are okay playing with around a half tip to a tip of english. Unless I'm reading it wrong, there doesn't seem to be a lot of compensation on certain shots?That is correct, even if the player isn't aware of it, especially for faster-speed and shorter-distance shots.

Is there a need for FHE english?No. Nor is there a need for BHE or any combination of parallel/BHE/FHE.


As far as I can tell, it's purpose is to squirt over more than BHE to compensate for swerve over longer distances.That is correct. FHE corrects less for squirt since swerve cancels some of the squirt. FHE works well for long, slow, near-level-cue shots, assuming your cue has relatively small CB deflection.

My question is can't you just use parallel and then add in bhe to make up the remainder?Yes. You can also vary your bridge length for each shot, or you can also use a combination of FHE and BHE, or you can just learn to aim instinctively by feel based on smart practice and lots of successful experience.

Regards,
Dave

Skippy27
07-11-2016, 01:00 PM
because knowledge is power and even after this exercise fades into his past part of it that works the best will be part of his game... Some players spend their whole life by feel and that is 100% fine but some players want/need that little bit of math/science to keep them in touch with the journey......

Good point. That is until something changes.

Masayoshi
07-11-2016, 10:27 PM
That is correct, even if the player isn't aware of it, especially for faster-speed and shorter-distance shots.

I agreed with your post except for this part. Parallel english works better for low speed and longer distances allowing the swerve and/or throw to compensate for the initial deflection. More speed and shorter distance lessen the effects of swerve.

Lesh
07-12-2016, 04:17 AM
BHE and FHE are myths.

These fall under the same categories as Slender Man, The Grifter, Hope for the American political system. These are things that do not exist outside of assigning them a name and fantastical attributes.

I am also starting to think there is no such thing as a slip-stroke, even though I have heard some veteran players talk about it. No one ever explains it when they talk about it (and I was never really motivated enough to do serious digging through the AZB dungeons)..... maybe its just a secret or such an incredibly difficult technique that the payoff is highly perishable and so small that its not really worth it to cultivate... much like jumping.

Lesh

dr_dave
07-12-2016, 07:00 AM
I agreed with your post except for this part. Parallel english works better for low speed and longer distances allowing the swerve and/or throw to compensate for the initial deflection. More speed and shorter distance lessen the effects of swerve.I agree 100% with this, so either I didn't phrase my previous post well or you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Regards,
Dave