PDA

View Full Version : Ivory - Ban Fake Ivory


Type79
07-11-2016, 04:57 AM
As if the current ban were not silly enough, National Geographic is seeking to ban fake ivory.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/02/160210-rhino-horn-wildlife-trafficking-pembient-poaching-conservation/

Icon of Sin
07-11-2016, 05:35 AM
As if the current ban were not silly enough, National Geographic is seeking to ban fake ivory.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/02/160210-rhino-horn-wildlife-trafficking-pembient-poaching-conservation/

For the sake of ripping people off thinking that it is real ivory, I can understand it.

For the sake of using synthetic or ivory like materials for a similar purpose (ie ferrules) I think it is absurd.

Without reading the article and looking at the picture alone, I think this has more to do with the ripping off people who are under the assumption that it is a real ivory horn.

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 05:43 AM
For the sake of ripping people off thinking that it is real ivory, I can understand it.

For the sake of using synthetic or ivory like materials for a similar purpose (ie ferrules) I think it is absurd.

Without reading the article and looking at the picture alone, I think this has more to do with the ripping off people who are under the assumption that it is a real ivory horn.

Rhino horn is not ivory....it is keratin...essentially hair.....



.

Icon of Sin
07-11-2016, 06:48 AM
Rhino horn is not ivory....it is keratin...essentially hair.....



.

I could really care less overall... but thanks.

Str8PoolPlayer
07-11-2016, 11:03 AM
As if the current ban were not silly enough, National Geographic is seeking to ban fake ivory.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/02/160210-rhino-horn-wildlife-trafficking-pembient-poaching-conservation/

If Haney got hold of this technology, he could engineer a bunch of little Hondo's :yikes::yikes::yikes:

Str8PoolPlayer
07-11-2016, 11:06 AM
Rhino horn is not ivory....it is keratin...essentially hair.....



.

Oh boy, now folks are going to be putting "hair" in their soup. :barf::barf::barf:

oldschool1478
07-11-2016, 11:44 AM
Fake ivory is like fake child porn.

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 12:02 PM
Fake ivory is like fake child porn.

Um....what?


:eek::confused::confused:



.

mortuarymike-nv
07-11-2016, 01:22 PM
The US fish and game and the custom agents will no longer be able to use the hot pin test to see if its real or fake ivory.

They would have to be trained to use a black light, and it might be that this new fake horn or ivory might also look so close to the real thing they cant tell the difference.

In short the US fish and Game don't know how to tell the difference with something legal but looks and smells like something that is illegal.

The US fish and Game and US Customs train their agents to use the hot pin test which is burning hair and bone have a smell different from plastics.

So they heat up a pin and stick it in what ever they think is Ivory and smell the burning fumes :eek: ....

So far I haven't seen any synthetic material that really buffs out like ivory or antler and yellows like the real stuff .

But it sounds like they have now come up with some and I would like to try some depending on its safety hazards .

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 01:43 PM
As technology advances I really believe it will be possible to replicate any natural material. If done to perfection it would indeed be impossible to tell it from the natural material.

In other words, eventually it would be possible to replicate ivory. Not a substitute, not an alternative, but actual ivory.

Eventually....


In the mean time.....


.

PhilosopherKing
07-11-2016, 03:44 PM
It's a pandora's box. Allow this and you'll have biotech labs growing tenderloin without the cow and crab legs minus the crab. Don't forget most of this stuff is meant to be ingested by imbeciles... besides the whole contributing to the slaughter and extinction of majestic species.

Bavafongoul
07-11-2016, 03:54 PM
Fake ivory is like fake child porn.

What the _uck ....the analogy is just tasteless, ugly and ridiculous....not a bit of humor embedded within that remark....

JoeyInCali
07-11-2016, 03:55 PM
Hopefully this new ban will protect the fake elephants too.

Mikey Town
07-11-2016, 04:04 PM
As technology advances I really believe it will be possible to replicate any natural material. If done to perfection it would indeed be impossible to tell it from the natural material.

In other words, eventually it would be possible to replicate ivory. Not a substitute, not an alternative, but actual ivory.

Eventually....


In the mean time.....


.

+1

They have been doing it with diamonds and gemstones for years.

If the demand, and the price tag, is high enough, they will find a way to replicate it.

JoeyInCali
07-11-2016, 04:08 PM
+1

They have been doing it with diamonds and gemstones for years.

If the demand, and the price tag, is high enough, they will find a way to replicate it.

Well, Viagra and Cialis has been around for years ( or is it decades already ? ) and them loonies down somewhere still like their ivory shake.
Gotta be the stupidest reason for killing elephants.

Icon of Sin
07-11-2016, 04:30 PM
Fake ivory is like fake child porn.

How to lose friends and alienate people.

See when I think of fake ivory vs real ivory, I would think something like the fake ivory isnt as good as the real stuff...

I hope you see how messed up your comment is.

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 04:40 PM
+1

They have been doing it with diamonds and gemstones for years.

If the demand, and the price tag, is high enough, they will find a way to replicate it.

Yes they have. But that is geological/minerological. Biological is more difficult.... :wink:


But it will come.

.

CJH
07-11-2016, 04:52 PM
The US fish and game and the custom agents will no longer be able to use the hot pin test to see if its real or fake ivory.

I am perplexed about this hot pin test. Ivory does not burn very easily at all so I do not understand how the hot pin would induce smoke. Ivory requires incredibly high temperatures (1800+ degrees) for an very long period of time and even then, the burn is usually too slow to destroy the ivory. Some level of burn from the pin would be necessary to create smoke. Of course, in the case of a pool cue, the hot pin would surely melt the finish although I don't think that smoke would produce this supposed smell of burning ivory (which does not burn).

Reminds me of the hoax burning stockpiles of ivory...

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/08/02/destroying-elephant-ivory-stockpiles-no-easy-matter/

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 04:56 PM
What the _uck ....the analogy is just tasteless, ugly and ridiculous....not a bit of humor embedded within that remark....



Agree 100%


No excuse for that.



.

Chopdoc
07-11-2016, 05:16 PM
I am perplexed about this hot pin test. Ivory does not burn very easily at all so I do not understand how the hot pin would induce smoke. Ivory requires incredibly high temperatures (1800+ degrees) for an very long period of time and even then, the burn is usually too slow to destroy the ivory. Some level of burn from the pin would be necessary to create smoke. Of course, in the case of a pool cue, the hot pin would surely melt the finish although I don't think that smoke would produce this supposed smell of burning ivory (which does not burn).

Reminds me of the hoax burning stockpiles of ivory...

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/08/02/destroying-elephant-ivory-stockpiles-no-easy-matter/



If it's plastic it will melt very easily and smell like plastic.

If it is ivory it smells like burning hair. It need not ignite to get the smell..


Yes, it damages the cue either way.


.

CJH
07-11-2016, 07:04 PM
If it's plastic it will melt very easily and smell like plastic.

If it is ivory it smells like burning hair. It need not ignite to get the smell..


Yes, it damages the cue either way.

I'm not disagreeing because I've never tried it but I am skeptical that the hot pin will have any effect on the Ivory but it will melt the finish which will NOT smell like burning hair.

mortuarymike-nv
07-11-2016, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=CJH;5605414]I am perplexed about this hot pin test. Ivory does not burn very easily at all so I do not understand how the hot pin would induce smoke. Ivory requires incredibly high temperatures (1800+ degrees) for an very long period of time and even then, the burn is usually too slow to destroy the ivory. Some level of burn from the pin would be necessary to create smoke. Of course, in the case of a pool cue, the hot pin would surely melt the finish although I don't think that smoke would produce this supposed smell of burning ivory (which does not burn).

Reminds me of the hoax burning stockpiles of ivory...

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/08/02/destroying-elephant-ivory-stockpiles-no-easy-matter/[

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hold the piece in your hand and feel its weight. Ivory feels heavy and dense when you hold it in your hand. Think of the weight of a billiard ball, which ivory has been used to make in the past; when you hold one in your hand, it feels sturdy and solid. If the item in question feels strangely lightweight, you can eliminate the possibility that it's ivory. •Bone can have the exact same weight as ivory, so just because the piece feels solid and heavy doesn't mean it is indeed ivory.
•If you're unsure whether the item feels appropriately solid, weigh it, then compare its weight to similar items that you know to be ivory. The internet is a great resource for finding the dimensions and weight of ivory items.

Run your fingers over the item to feel its texture. Ivory is said to be as smooth as butter. It's not as soft, but in the right hands it's almost as easy to carve. If the surface of the piece feels rutted and pockmarked, it might not be ivory. If it feels unbelievably smooth, you may have ivory on your hands.

Tell Ivory from Bone
Examine the item's patina and surface through a magnifying glass. It's not always possible to tell for sure whether an item is ivory by looking under a magnifying glass, but doing so should provide good clues. Real ivory is lustrous and beautiful, often with a slightly yellowish hue. It can also take on a brownish patina caused by the oils of those who have handled it over the years. If you see spots or other odd markings, though, it probably isn't ivory. Look for the following identifiers:

•Cross-hatched lines. There should be parallel lines (with slight irregularities) running along the length of the item. Perpendicular to these should be circular or V-shaped lines known as Schreger lines. These are found in all elephant and mammoth ivory.[1]
•Does the surface have multiple darkened dots or pits? If so, this is a very good indicator of its being bone. In some cases the bone has been bleached, though, so keep performing other tests to be sure.
•All bone has the telltale flecks of marrow, or tiny notches, in the surface. These may not be visible to the naked eye, but you should be able to see them through a magnifying glass. Ivory tends to be smoother, harder, and not pitted

Heat a straight pin. Hold it over a candle flame or a lighter flame for a few seconds until it gets quite hot. You can use any piece of metal, but a pin is a good choice since you don't want to create a mark on the item you're testing.
Hold the pin to the surface of the item. Choose a discreet spot so you don't end up leaving a mark or a dent (although if the item is ivory, this won't happen).
Smell the place where you touched the item with the hot pin. If the item is ivory, it should have no scent that wasn't there before. If it's bone, it will smell faintly of burning hair. •True ivory will not get damaged by this experiment, since it is hard and strong enough to resist the heat. However, if the object you're testing happens to be made of plastic, the hot needle will make a slight dent. Since some plastics (such as Bakelite) have as much or more value than ivory, you may not want to try the hot needle test until you know for sure that what you have is not plastic.

Have the item chemically tested. To leave absolutely no question about the composition of your ivory or bone item, take it to a forensics lab and have it chemically tested by a scientist. The cellular structure of ivory is different from that of bone, but lab equipment is required to determine which is which with finality.

CJH
07-12-2016, 10:37 AM
Heat a straight pin. Hold it over a candle flame or a lighter flame for a few seconds until it gets quite hot. You can use any piece of metal, but a pin is a good choice since you don't want to create a mark on the item you're testing.
Hold the pin to the surface of the item. Choose a discreet spot so you don't end up leaving a mark or a dent (although if the item is ivory, this won't happen).
Smell the place where you touched the item with the hot pin. If the item is ivory, it should have no scent that wasn't there before. If it's bone, it will smell faintly of burning hair. •True ivory will not get damaged by this experiment, since it is hard and strong enough to resist the heat. However, if the object you're testing happens to be made of plastic, the hot needle will make a slight dent. Since some plastics (such as Bakelite) have as much or more value than ivory, you may not want to try the hot needle test until you know for sure that what you have is not plastic.[/COLOR]

Now THAT makes sense to me. No scent or smoke from the hot needle = Ivory. Thank you Sir!

Chopdoc
07-12-2016, 05:48 PM
Yes.


But to test every white part (inlays and rings) you are likely going to ruin the finish at a minimum.


Easy enough to test the joint face.....but every inlay? Not applicable to every cue of course.


It's not really reasonable.



And as for laboratory testing, they would need to take a sample. Again, ruining at least the finish, most likely more.


Again, not really reasonable.



.