PDA

View Full Version : Bergman vs. Deuel at BCAPL National Championships


CSI Media
07-12-2016, 11:37 AM
Predator Arena VIP Seats Available Now!
Get your front row seats for the US Open 10-Ball Championship, US Open 8-Ball Championships, special challenge matches and more!
Pick Your Poison Challenge: Shane Van Boening vs. Thorsten Hohmann, 8-Ball, Race to 21
The Tiger Challenge: Mike Dechaine vs. Rodney Morris, 10-Ball, Race to 21
The OB Challenge: Justin Bergman vs. Corey Deuel, 8-Ball, Race to 21
Purchase your 11-day VIP Seats here: http://www.playcsipool.com/2016-vip-seats.html
428425

Str8PoolPlayer
07-12-2016, 11:40 AM
I like Corey all the way. GO "Prince of Pool".

watchez
07-12-2016, 11:41 AM
If you are out there, find me before the match

watchez
07-12-2016, 11:42 AM
CSI News -- is the arena going to be better this year? Meaning are the bleachers going to be higher than the pool table?

boogeyman
07-12-2016, 12:29 PM
I like Corey all the way. GO "Prince of Pool".

I can understand someone picking Corey to win this one, but I say
JB can and will win this one.
He's hungrier than Corey IMO.

As I have said in previous posts, I feel Corey has peaked and at this point in his
career, any young gun who comes at him with some hunger "chops" has a damn
good chance of taking the cheese.

Look me up, Str8Pool, after the match and we can discuss the results.

Thanks.

Masseyman
07-12-2016, 12:48 PM
CSI News -- is the arena going to be better this year? Meaning are the bleachers going to be higher than the pool table?

Looking at the new seating chart they have changed things around, but you can't tell by the seating chart at what level the bleachers are. I do hope it is better. I'm going out early to watch some of these matches. I can't swing the full $200 VIP seats for the entire tournament, but do hope the view from the bleachers is better.

watchez
07-12-2016, 01:28 PM
Let's hope you are right. Be good to have a crowd around watching these matches.

Dimeball
07-12-2016, 03:06 PM
I like Corey all the way. GO "Prince of Pool".
If Corey wins this match, I'd be shocked!
Not sure if it's on a bar table or a 9, but if it's a bar table, ... you know...

tduncan
07-12-2016, 03:58 PM
Are these matches on a bar table? Or did they bring in 9 footer for them this year.

BeiberLvr
07-12-2016, 04:02 PM
If Corey wins this match, I'd be shocked!
Not sure if it's on a bar table or a 9, but if it's a bar table, ... you know...

The tournaments going on at the same time will be on 7' tables, so one can only assume these challenge matches will be the same. I sure hope not though, and hope they brought in at least one 9' table for them.

If it's on 7', I won't be watching.

tduncan
07-12-2016, 05:17 PM
The tournaments going on at the same time will be on 7' tables, so one can only assume these challenge matches will be the same. I sure hope not though, and hope they brought in at least one 9' table for them.

If it's on 7', I won't be watching.

Deal breaker for me too. That is why I was asking. I hope it is on a 9 footer.

one stroke
07-12-2016, 05:21 PM
I can understand someone picking Corey to win this one, but I say
JB can and will win this one.
He's hungrier than Corey IMO.

As I have said in previous posts, I feel Corey has peaked and at this point in his
career, any young gun who comes at him with some hunger "chops" has a damn
good chance of taking the cheese.

Look me up, Str8Pool, after the match and we can discuss the results.

Thanks.

I wonder if Cory will use that straight pool break he used in that one turney one railing the corner ball straight back ,

1

one stroke
07-12-2016, 05:22 PM
Deal breaker for me too. That is why I was asking. I hope it is on a 9 footer.

Heard they can't afford 9fts lol


1

s0lidz
07-12-2016, 05:23 PM
Is this event going to be streamed? I don't see any advertising or purchase links for a ppv.

s0lidz
07-12-2016, 05:25 PM
Deal breaker for me too. That is why I was asking. I hope it is on a 9 footer.

To each his own. Bar table 8 ball is my favorite game to watch.

Johnnyt
07-12-2016, 07:10 PM
CSI = Bar Box lately. Johnnyt

taylor9ball
07-12-2016, 10:16 PM
Is this event going to be streamed? I don't see any advertising or purchase links for a ppv.

The information is on the original post with the web address.

jay helfert
07-13-2016, 12:17 AM
I'll be there, yapping away as usual. :)
Playing on a 7' Diamond is still real pool I don't care what you say. You still see great shots and good run-outs, and the best players find a way to win. Not the same skills you see on a 9', but SKILLS just the same! Cue ball position becomes the essential thing in these matches. A lot of tight position shots are required. I like these matches with good players involved. It seems like it always comes down to one or two key shots in each match. Try shooting a bank off the end rail for all the cheese and then tell me how easy it is, lol.

BeiberLvr
07-13-2016, 04:26 AM
I'll be there, yapping away as usual. :)
Playing on a 7' Diamond is still real pool I don't care what you say. You still see great shots and good run-outs, and the best players find a way to win. Not the same skills you see on a 9', but SKILLS just the same! Cue ball position becomes the essential thing in these matches. A lot of tight position shots are required. I like these matches with good players involved. It seems like it always comes down to one or two key shots in each match. Try shooting a bank off the end rail for all the cheese and then tell me how easy it is, lol.

I'm sure your commentary will be top notch. For those that can't watch the matches, let me give you a preview of Jay's commentary for them:

Jay: Looks like he has a shot on the 1. Okay, he's probably out from here. Nice out.




It's real pool for hacks like me, but for these guys it's a walk in the park.

The biggest problem is when you see balls go that would NEVER go on a 9' table.

I doubt it could have been that much more costly or difficult to bring in one 9' table for these challenge matches. Even if it was a little more costly, it would increase the amount of viewers which would likely offset those costs.

Dimeball
07-13-2016, 05:05 AM
I'll be there, yapping away as usual. :)
Playing on a 7' Diamond is still real pool I don't care what you say. You still see great shots and good run-outs, and the best players find a way to win. Not the same skills you see on a 9', but SKILLS just the same! Cue ball position becomes the essential thing in these matches. A lot of tight position shots are required. I like these matches with good players involved. It seems like it always comes down to one or two key shots in each match. Try shooting a bank off the end rail for all the cheese and then tell me how easy it is, lol.
I think you're right, the same players that win on the 9'ers win on the bar tables which is not just luck. Players and real fans of pool love pool, doesn't matter the table. High level performance is enjoyable no matter the conditions.
Jay, if you could though, please don't let the loud smacking guy commentate with you. I'm sure he's a great person and all that stuff, but for the love of God.... Ok I'm done.

gxman
07-13-2016, 05:27 AM
I think CSI has an agenda to push pool towards Diamond 7ft tables.

Others might enjoy it, but watching pros play on 7ft tables is incredible boring to me.

I had really enjoyed the 2013 U.S Open 8b Final on the 9ft table. Shane vs Biado.

2013 US Open 10b Final Rodney beating Dennis.



Also, the CSI challenge with the Taiwan guy beating Dennis, 9b race to 21, was awesome. Ko beating Shane 10b race to 23(I think) was a great match. Both were on 9ft tables!

jay helfert
07-13-2016, 07:00 AM
I think you're right, the same players that win on the 9'ers win on the bar tables which is not just luck. Players and real fans of pool love pool, doesn't matter the table. High level performance is enjoyable no matter the conditions.
Jay, if you could though, please don't let the loud smacking guy commentate with you. I'm sure he's a great person and all that stuff, but for the love of God.... Ok I'm done.

The guy you refer to is not part of the commentary team this year. :grin:

jay helfert
07-13-2016, 07:05 AM
I think CSI has an agenda to push pool towards Diamond 7ft tables.

Others might enjoy it, but watching pros play on 7ft tables is incredible boring to me.

I had really enjoyed the 2013 U.S Open 8b Final on the 9ft table. Shane vs Biado.

2013 US Open 10b Final Rodney beating Dennis.



Also, the CSI challenge with the Taiwan guy beating Dennis, 9b race to 21, was awesome. Ko beating Shane 10b race to 23(I think) was a great match. Both were on 9ft tables!

I've never had this discussion with Ozzy, but to me it's pretty obvious. All the BCA and USA pool leagues are contested on 7' tables (I believe this is correct), so it behooves them to have streamed matches on similar tables to promote their leagues. It might just inspire some players (new and vets) to play more and try harder to excel on these tables. That makes sense to me as a businessman.

Mark Griffin
07-13-2016, 07:20 AM
BeiberLvr,

I'm sure Jay and the rest of the team will do fine in the commentary and production. The precision on a 7' table is more critical than on a 9' table. Some of the matches were very exciting.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but viewership is ALWAYS much higher on 7' than 9' tables. The additional costs is all relative. It's not just the costs of bringing out a few tables, It is having 2 streaming areas, plus thousands of dollars in hanging lights (union town) and limited space. Total impact would probably exceed $10,000. And history has shown the draw is much smaller. It seems the fans of 9' pool are more vocal, but people vote with their wallet, and the numbers are not even close.

Mark Griffin

I'm sure your commentary will be top notch.

It's real pool for hacks like me, but for these guys it's a walk in the park.

The biggest problem is when you see balls go that would NEVER go on a 9' table.

I doubt it could have been that much more costly or difficult to bring in one 9' table for these challenge matches. Even if it was a little more costly, it would increase the amount of viewers which would likely offset those costs.

Dimeball
07-13-2016, 08:09 AM
I've never had this discussion with Ozzy, but to me it's pretty obvious. All the BCA and USA pool leagues are contested on 7' tables (I believe this is correct), so it behooves them to have streamed matches on similar tables to promote their leagues. It might just inspire some players (new and vets) to play more and try harder to excel on these tables. That makes sense to me as a businessman.
Thanks Jay.
I enjoy your old stories in between matches and shots. Keep promoting pool and making things happen, I have played the BCA nationals and yes it was on 7' diamonds and has been for many years.

Mark, good comments as well. One day, all US pool make be on 7' tables, if that is where the money's at why not, I must agree the fans prove it, less this old folks home forum of course. I still love the 9'ers too...

dardusm
07-13-2016, 08:18 AM
To each his own. Bar table 8 ball is my favorite game to watch.

I agree that 8-ball on a bar table is much more interesting due to the congestion. Corey has a great imagination and I enjoy watching him wade through the different options on getting out. Rotation on the other hand is much better on the big track.

BRussell
07-13-2016, 08:47 AM
All the BCA and USA pool leagues are contested on 7' tables (I believe this is correct), so it behooves them to have streamed matches on similar tables to promote their leagues.



I play on a BCA league that's not on 7-footers. A couple of our locations are 7-ft. but most are larger.

But I'm sure your point is generally true that most leagues in the US are on the smaller tables - maybe Mark has some stats or an estimate on that?

What bothers me is watching the Mosconi Cup or the Atlantic Cup last week with the juniors getting utterly out-classed and wondering about new American players not ever being able to find 9-footers to play on. If all the big organizations like CSI go completely 7-foot, is all American pool going 7-foot, and what does that mean for the future of American pool on the international stage?

BeiberLvr
07-13-2016, 09:01 AM
I play on a BCA league that's not on 7-footers. A couple of our locations are 7-ft. but most are larger.

But I'm sure your point is generally true that most leagues in the US are on the smaller tables - maybe Mark has some stats or an estimate on that?

What bothers me is watching the Mosconi Cup or the Atlantic Cup last week with the juniors getting utterly out-classed and wondering about new American players not ever being able to find 9-footers to play on. If all the big organizations like CSI go completely 7-foot, is all American pool going 7-foot, and what does that mean for the future of American pool on the international stage?

This.

Mark thinks he is helping American pool.

He's not.

MachineGunKelly
07-13-2016, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=BeiberLvr;5606754]I'm sure your commentary will be top notch. For those that can't watch the matches, let me give you a preview of Jay's commentary for them:

Jay: Looks like he has a shot on the 1. Okay, he's probably out from here. Nice out.




It's real pool for hacks like me, but for these guys it's a walk in the park.

The biggest problem is when you see balls go that would NEVER go on a 9' table.

I doubt it could have been that much more costly or difficult to bring in one 9' table for these challenge matches. Even if it was a little more costly, it would increase the amount of viewers which would likely offset those costs.[/QUOT


What ball would go on a 7' diamond that won't go on a 9' diamond if they both have pro cut pockets?

Teacherman
07-13-2016, 09:37 AM
I challenge the notion that you have more viewers BECAUSE the tables are 7' instead of 9'.

tduncan
07-13-2016, 09:56 AM
I challenge the notion that you have more viewers BECAUSE the tables are 7' instead of 9'.

I never bought that either.

BRussell
07-13-2016, 10:07 AM
Is this event going to be streamed? I don't see any advertising or purchase links for a ppv.

The information is on the original post with the web address.

I don't see pay-per-view info yet. I don't think they've announced that yet, but I'm assuming they'll do it. Last year you could purchase a package for all events in advance.

Mole Eye
07-13-2016, 10:29 AM
Going out on a limb here, but its hard for me to believe that people watch a streaming event BECAUSE its on a 7 foot table. The people who watch an event on bar boxes will watch it on just about anything. Nothing wrong with that, but lets not kid ourselves. The bigger the table, the more difficult the game.

tduncan
07-13-2016, 10:42 AM
Going out on a limb here, but its hard for me to believe that people watch a streaming event BECAUSE its on a 7 foot table. The people who watch an event on bar boxes will watch it on just about anything. Nothing wrong with that, but lets not kid ourselves. The bigger the table, the more difficult the game.

The pros think it's comical from comments made by some of them in the past.

couldnthinkof01
07-13-2016, 12:50 PM
The bar table should be played on by the pros.
Im not sure about mosconi points and such but...

Patterns, the break, strokes used are different and I enjoy to watch it.

Mark Griffin
07-13-2016, 06:33 PM
I'm not going to get into a big pissing contest with anyone here, but it is common knowledge that 7' events get better coverage than 9'.

TAR had similar stats - which I am sure are available to someone (not me) who knows how to access them. I remember the 10 top matches. I think 9 were on a 7' table. Only one 9' match was in the the top 10 and it featured Efren. In fact, it might have been one where he was in the TAR studio and explained a lot of things.

Bottom line is - we have the numbers. You can believe them or not. But it is estimated that over 90% of American pool is played on smaller tables. It only stands to reason that they would have more viewership.

Why would I lie? My integrity is worth a whole lot more than that.........
Remember, we aren't creating the market for 7' or 9'. We are reacting to what the 'public' has shown they want to watch and to play on.


Mark Griffin

BeiberLvr
07-13-2016, 07:13 PM
I'm not going to get into a big pissing contest with anyone here, but it is common knowledge that 7' events get better coverage than 9'.

TAR had similar stats - which I am sure are available to someone (not me) who knows how to access them. I remember the 10 top matches. I think 9 were on a 7' table. Only one 9' match was in the the top 10 and it featured Efren. In fact, it might have been one where he was in the TAR studio and explained a lot of things.

Bottom line is - we have the numbers. You can believe them or not. But it is estimated that over 90% of American pool is played on smaller tables. It only stands to reason that they would have more viewership.

Why would I lie? My integrity is worth a whole lot more than that.........
Remember, we aren't creating the market for 7' or 9'. We are reacting to what the 'public' has shown they want to watch and to play on.


Mark Griffin


Forcing Americans to play on 7' tables doesn't help long term against international competition.

If that's okay with you as long as you squeak out a profit, then so be it.

mikepage
07-13-2016, 08:13 PM
Forcing Americans to play on 7' tables doesn't help long term against international competition.

If that's okay with you as long as you squeak out a profit, then so be it.

The debate about what players want and how best to advance pool long term in North America is a legitimate one, and there is room for many views and for much discussion.

But one thing is clear to me. Mark Griffin has earned better treatment than this.

Teacherman
07-13-2016, 08:18 PM
Still no causal relationship shown.

Mark Griffin
07-13-2016, 09:52 PM
I'll tell what. If you think 9' pool is such a great attraction, why not do some events?

I've been in the pool industry for a lot of years. I grew up on 9' tables. But facts are facts. The amount of pool played on 7' table is MANY times that played on 9' tables.

You make it sound like I am forcing people to play on 7' tables.
I am reacting to the marketplace. Players (by the numbers of entries) clearly show they prefer 7' tables. So I need to have events on 7' tables.

It gets old listening to keyboard quarterbacks. Do you remember when CSI produced the Qlympics? That was in 2007 in Louisville. It was my attempt to get amateurs to play on 9' tables. Financially it was a big flop. I lost $80,000! (And I paid every player every penny on the spot).

So - I tried. Pool showed they didn't want to play on 9' tables. And there it is. You can argue all you want-but as far as I'm concerned, you don't understand the dynamics of pool players in America.

If you ever want to discuss this, I encourage you to call me. But to insinuate it's all about profit really shows you don't know me.

Mark Griffin

Forcing Americans to play on 7' tables doesn't help long term against international competition.

If that's okay with you as long as you squeak out a profit, then so be it.

Cameron Smith
07-13-2016, 11:04 PM
I'm not a fan of the 7 foot tables. But i appreciate the return of the US Open One Pocket and revival of the US Open 14.1.

i just hope the market swings in a way to make it feasible to bring 10 ball US Open back to 9 foot tables. The 10/8 ball invitational events are among my favorite tournaments of all time.

watchez
07-13-2016, 11:55 PM
Mark - I believe the top watched TAR matches all involved SVB. People made a point that SVB was shown too much but Justin quickly pointed out that he was the most watched. I know SVB played Frost on a bar table, but most of his matches were big table matches.

You obviously have the CSI numbers on what people have watched on your recent streams. I do think that you can't compare what people participate it (or not participate in) to what they are gonna watch. I'm not gonna get into an Octagon to fight some steroid juiced guy that eats nails for breakfast and most people wouldn't either. But the UFC just sold for 4 billion so it shows there is a lot of interest in seeing it. Want a more relative comparison -- In golf, Joe Public doesn't want to play on a super tough course and shoot 100. They might once for the thrill of it but aren't going to every weekend. However the most watched golf is the majors, under the toughest conditions.

I love bar table 8 ball so I looking forward to seeing this match live. Again, I hope you have the bleacher seating corrected this year so there can be a big crowd there to enjoy it as well. I also think it would have been nice in CSI would have done a match involving Sky and Oscar, either between themselves or against other opponents.

BeiberLvr
07-14-2016, 04:01 AM
I'll tell what. If you think 9' pool is such a great attraction, why not do some events?

I've been in the pool industry for a lot of years. I grew up on 9' tables. But facts are facts. The amount of pool played on 7' table is MANY times that played on 9' tables.

You make it sound like I am forcing people to play on 7' tables.
I am reacting to the marketplace. Players (by the numbers of entries) clearly show they prefer 7' tables. So I need to have events on 7' tables.

It gets old listening to keyboard quarterbacks. Do you remember when CSI produced the Qlympics? That was in 2007 in Louisville. It was my attempt to get amateurs to play on 9' tables. Financially it was a big flop. I lost $80,000! (And I paid every player every penny on the spot).

So - I tried. Pool showed they didn't want to play on 9' tables. And there it is. You can argue all you want-but as far as I'm concerned, you don't understand the dynamics of pool players in America.

If you ever want to discuss this, I encourage you to call me. But to insinuate it's all about profit really shows you don't know me.

Mark Griffin


Best of luck, Mark.

And congratulations in advance to Team Europe.

Colormegone2002
07-14-2016, 07:49 AM
I will always try to support CSI by watching anything they do because

they are at least trying to keep the game alive! If the market calls for 7 ft'ers then

that's what it has to be.I don't know anyone that is just looking for a way to lose

money.

IMO, If you want the average person to pick the game up, a 9 ft table will make

them change their mind real quick.

Most all of us grew up on 9' but we're the old guys now. It's a new day and

time. I have a 9' here at my house that I play on daily. BUT, when I go to play

in a tournament it's all 7's and that's all fine with me if it keeps OUR game

alive.

ROCK ON,Mr. Griffin and most of us wish you the best!! Thanks

barrymuch90
07-14-2016, 08:16 AM
Yea I wouldn't take any of this negativity to heart especially knowing your organizations are putting on events. Regardless of size of tables I love the fact you guys put on great events with huge entry numbers and also some world class competitors. Forget these jokers that say your after solely profit when obviously profit keeps doors open but any one can see that CSI cares about pool and cares to keep American tournaments going. To me you guys do so much for pool especial on American soil and it's a shame that people like trying to attack you and your efforts but negativity will always be there as long as you ignore it and don't let it consume your thoughts then let the negativity go on, it most likely gives these people a purpose so as pathetic as that may be it is what it is. I just feel the need to counter balance these comments with positivity and support and let you guys know there are absolutely supporters and I am one of them

Mark Griffin
07-14-2016, 04:25 PM
There was a thread about why people post less now than previous years.

I said because of all the negativity. I firmly believe that. There are a few posters that just cant wait to jump on everything I say or do. I don't really care but it does become aggravating.

I post a lot less now:


WORK HARD IN SILENCE,
LET SUCCESS MAKE THE NOISE.

Mark Griffin

westcoast
07-14-2016, 05:03 PM
I understand Mark's reasoning. The facts are the facts.

However, I really prefer watching the pros play on 9 or 10 footers, especially when it comes to 9 and 10 ball. I think some of the pros don't even show up to Vegas for these events because of the disdain for 7 footers- for example, Mika, Johnny Archer, Earl, Biado, and others seem to be missing this year.

Also, isn't a bit redundant to have the US Open 10 and 8 ball on the bar table and then have bar table championships just one month later?

Island Drive
07-14-2016, 05:30 PM
Best of luck, Mark.

And congratulations in advance to Team Europe.

:scratchhead: why??????? R U being this way? Do you talk to all those you come across in this manner. Where's it get ya in life....I don't get in. Ever listen to John Lennon????????????

BeiberLvr
07-14-2016, 06:27 PM
:scratchhead: why??????? R U being this way? Do you talk to all those you come across in this manner. Where's it get ya in life....I don't get in. Ever listen to John Lennon????????????

Am I not allowed to voice my opinion, especially when we are talking about the future of American pool?

There are threads each and every year about how Americans can't compete on the global stage, and suggestions on how we can improve.

I assure you, playing on 7' tables is NOT the answer. But if CSI is successful I guess that's all that matters.

NastyNate13
07-14-2016, 07:56 PM
I live in NYC and you rarely see 7' tables unless you are at an actual bar. I play on 9' always unless I have to go to Vegas for BCA nationals or to prepare myself for the Expo. Straight pool is king where I live and no one would ever play it on a 7' diamond (even though I do like playing on them as a change of pace once in a while). I'm not gonna sit here and b*tch about what should and shouldn't be done but I'm glad that there is people like you Mark that are able to have these great events. Wish you a lot of luck!

Poolplaya9
07-14-2016, 10:59 PM
But to insinuate it's all about profit really shows you don't know me.

There is no problem with it even if it was all about profit and only about profit. You are a business, not a charity. It is always so easy for people to try to give other people's money away. If they want some charitable work done then they should go do it themselves instead of trying to tell everybody else that they should be doing it.

For the record I believe Mark tries to have some balance between what is best for pool with what is best for his pocketbook. But if you think he has to do that or even should do that or that he owes any charity to anyone you couldn't be more wrong. And if you think that not only should he be charitable with his business, but that it should be his first consideration ahead of his pocketbook then not only are you wrong, you are out of your mind.

Let's spell it out one more time for the people that don't get it. Businesses are for making money. They are for helping yourself. That is their whole purpose. Charities are for helping others. That is their whole purpose. Mark has a business, not a charity. Now if he chooses to take other things besides his pocketbook into consideration at times then more power to him if it makes him happy. But he has no obligation to do so, and we have no right to expect him to do so.

If you want charity done then go start a charity or go do that charitable work that you would like to see done. But stop expecting a business to be a charity.

fiftyyardline
07-14-2016, 11:51 PM
CSI News -- is the arena going to be better this year? Meaning are the bleachers going to be higher than the pool table?

I too would like an answer to this question. Last year I watched very little of the Pro matches because standing on the bleachers was the only way to adequately see the play on the table. Really hope this issue has been addressed and corrected for this year. Mark?

BeiberLvr
07-15-2016, 04:36 AM
There is no problem with it even if it was all about profit and only about profit. You are a business, not a charity. It is always so easy for people to try to give other people's money away. If they want some charitable work done then they should go do it themselves instead of trying to tell everybody else that they should be doing it.

For the record I believe Mark tries to have some balance between what is best for pool with what is best for his pocketbook. But if you think he has to do that or even should do that or that he owes any charity to anyone you couldn't be more wrong. And if you think that not only should he be charitable with his business, but that it should be his first consideration ahead of his pocketbook then not only are you wrong, you are out of your mind.

Let's spell it out one more time for the people that don't get it. Businesses are for making money. They are for helping yourself. That is their whole purpose. Charities are for helping others. That is their whole purpose. Mark has a business, not a charity. Now if he chooses to take other things besides his pocketbook into consideration at times then more power to him if it makes him happy. But he has no obligation to do so, and we have no right to expect him to do so.

If you want charity done then go start a charity or go do that charitable work that you would like to see done. But stop expecting a business to be a charity.

I'll respond only because I believe some of this is aimed towards me.

I understand that Mark is running a business. The point I've been trying to drive home is that it doesn't make the American player stronger. If 10 years from now all events are on 7' tables, we won't beat anyone on the international stage.

The other point that Mark (and possibly you) are missing is that you don't need to be charitable to help strengthen the talents of the American pool player. It's totally possibly to run a successful business at the same time. I don't have the answer. Perhaps Mark does, but this isn't it.

robsnotes4u
07-15-2016, 04:48 AM
I'll respond only because I believe some of this is aimed towards me.



I understand that Mark is running a business. The point I've been trying to drive home is that it doesn't make the American player stronger. If 10 years from now all events are on 7' tables, we won't beat anyone on the international stage.



The other point that Mark (and possibly you) are missing is that you don't need to be charitable to help strengthen the talents of the American pool player. It's totally possibly to run a successful business at the same time. I don't have the answer. Perhaps Mark does, but this isn't it.



Did it ever cross your mind that Mark's goals isn't to make American pool stronger on the International stage?

If you want that then invest your money into coaches, player development, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeiberLvr
07-15-2016, 05:19 AM
Did it ever cross your mind that Mark's goals isn't to make American pool stronger on the International stage?

If you want that then invest your money into coaches, player development, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Why do you think I've made the comment(s) that Mark only cares about what's best for CSI?

Like I said in my previous post, he can care about CSI and help make the American players stronger.

If Mark thinks the masses aren't capable of watching anything other than run out pool, then he has every right to give them what they want. For me, I prefer something with a little more substance. Something that will actually help keep pool around in this country long term. I'm sure there are others that feel the same way. I'm just the most vocal about it right now.

BasementDweller
07-15-2016, 07:37 AM
Let's be honest -- in today's environment, watching pros play anything other than 8 ball on a bar table is a complete joke. There was a time when bar table 9 ball was exciting to watch if even just for the change of pace it provided. But now, with the template racks it's a snooze fest.

It's such a strange thing though because most of the really large tournaments are being played on bar tables and the pros keep showing up for them.

Another weird thing is as a viewer I would much rather watch old school bar table 9 ball on a Valley table with a house rack than today's game on Diamond bar tables with templates.

I've wondered if bar table 9 ball with templates could be given one last shot in the arm by racking with the 9 on the spot AND breaking from behind the FIRST diamond.

Amateurs playing on bar tables makes sense but pros playing on them doesn't. It's one thing to say the marketplace is dictating that we have amateur events on bar tables since that's obviously true. But it's a leap to say that the marketplace is also dictating that we have professional exhibition matches on them. I don't buy that.

Keith Jawahir
07-15-2016, 07:51 AM
Shane over Toasty, Berg over Deuel, probably the only interesting match here is Rocket vs. Bighead

couldnthinkof01
07-15-2016, 08:32 AM
Lol basement, while you are stuck in the basement Marks putting together events and streams. This is what he does everyday, but you dont buy it?

Why would he lie?

He has nothing to gain by doing so.

mikepage
07-15-2016, 08:42 AM
[...] If 10 years from now all events are on 7' tables, we won't beat anyone on the international stage.

[...]

The equipment we play on is one thing that impacts how USA does on international stage 10 years from now (hereafter IS10), yes. But we have to put it in perspective with other factors that impact IS10.

Consider two hypothetical worlds designed to separate some of these factors

(world 1) We immediately switch all 7-foot tables with 9-foot tables in the USA. So bar leagues, weekly tournaments, regional tournaments, and national tournaments are all played on 9-foot tables. But we don't change who plays league, how many people practice and how much, who shows up for the weekly tournaments and so forth. So we change nothing about the people, only the equipment they play on.

How would world 1 affect IS10?

Oh I suspect it would improve it a little

(world 2) We stay on the equipment we play on now, but somehow we increase everything about participation and energy by 20%. Number of new league players increases 20%. Entries to weekly, regional, and national tournaments increases by 20%, number of hungry players putting in the hours increases by 20%. Number of league players taking the next step to enter a first tournament increases by 20%

How would world 2 affect IS10?

The impact would be huge. the pressure on the shortstops from below would step up their games. The pressure on the pros from the energized shortstops would be big. the pressure from below on the Mosconi Cup hopefuls from other energized pros would be big too. And more of this latter crowd would find a way to compete internationally as a result.

This is what Mark understands.

When participation increases, that rising tide raises all boats providing there are seamless connections between the levels of interest. If you have a large league system that is disconnected from higher-level pool this will not be the case. But if you have a large league system that is seamlessly connected, it will. CSI has been steadfastly doggedly building that ladder--so that players at every level of interest/skill/commitment feel that connection to the next level up should they have an inkling to do a little more. The fact the pros are all heading out to Vegas to play alongside many thousands of amateurs on the same equipment next week is a big deal. The fact the league players will walk past the pros in the hall, ride up the elevator with them, be next to them at the bar and at starbucks --and then you seem them play --on the same equipment you play on... That is huge.

I believe the impact of the size of the table on high-level pool in the USA is small compared to this bigger picture.

BasementDweller
07-15-2016, 08:44 AM
I wouldn't say that he's lying. My guess would be that he's looking at some sort of correlation and assuming there's some sort of causal relationship involved. If you really think those that buy PPV's would rather watch bar table action over big table maybe we should encourage Pat Fleming to make the change too. Just think how many more buys he could get for Accustats if they made the change.

Keith Jawahir
07-15-2016, 09:07 AM
The equipment we play on is one thing that impacts how USA does on international stage 10 years from now (hereafter IS10), yes. But we have to put it in perspective with other factors that impact IS10.

Consider two hypothetical worlds designed to separate some of these factors

(world 1) We immediately switch all 7-foot tables with 9-foot tables in the USA. So bar leagues, weekly tournaments, regional tournaments, and national tournaments are all played on 9-foot tables. But we don't change who plays league, how many people practice and how much, who shows up for the weekly tournaments and so forth. So we change nothing about the people, only the equipment they play on.

How would world 1 affect IS10?

Oh I suspect it would improve it a little

(world 2) We stay on the equipment we play on now, but somehow we increase everything about participation and energy by 20%. Number of new league players increases 20%. Entries to weekly, regional, and national tournaments increases by 20%, number of hungry players putting in the hours increases by 20%. Number of league players taking the next step to enter a first tournament increases by 20%

How would world 2 affect IS10?

The impact would be huge. the pressure on the shortstops from below would step up their games. The pressure on the pros from the energized shortstops would be big. the pressure from below on the Mosconi Cup hopefuls from other energized pros would be big too. And more of this latter crowd would find a way to compete internationally as a result.

This is what Mark understands.

When participation increases, that rising tide raises all boats providing there are seamless connections between the levels of interest. If you have a large league system that is disconnected from higher-level pool this will not be the case. But if you have a large league system that is seamlessly connected, it will. CSI has been steadfastly doggedly building that ladder--so that players at every level of interest/skill/commitment feel that connection to the next level up should they have an inkling to do a little more. The fact the pros are all heading out to Vegas to play alongside many thousands of amateurs on the same equipment next week is a big deal. The fact the league players will walk past the pros in the hall, ride up the elevator with them, be next to them at the bar and at starbucks --and then you seem them play --on the same equipment you play on... That is huge.

I believe the impact of the size of the table on high-level pool in the USA is small compared to this bigger picture.

From this, can we hypothesize that the next generation of top American players will be raised from amateur leagues, tournaments and programs like the BEF?

Rhea
07-15-2016, 09:33 AM
In my opinion, 9 ball and 10 ball are better suited to be played on a larger table, however due to the nature of the game of 8 ball, a bar table sized table for 8 ball really shows the stronger player especially since there is so much more cue ball control necessary to avoid or intentionally disrupt traffic.

storke
07-15-2016, 10:09 AM
Mark I must first say a big thank you for all you do and have done for the sport of pool. I firmly believe your contributions over the years have had such a positive impact on pro and amateur billiards. I also believe you do what you believe to be right. I do however wonder the basis of your comment of most of the pool played is played on 7 ft. tables. This comment is 100% true, since most pool played is played by amateurs. However, the large majority of these amateurs also aren't your demographic for these streams since most could care less and usually couldn't even tell you who Corey Duel was. This forum, these people who rave, hurl insults, chase away pros, have potty mouths, and think they know everything are your watching public like it or not in most cases. Please don't take this as I'm arguing with you just stating my opinion. Again thanks for all you do; and I will be a consumer of your products no matter what size table, just wish it was on 9ft:smile:

Island Drive
07-15-2016, 11:19 AM
[QUOTE=BeiberLvr;5608447]Am I not allowed to voice my opinion, especially when we are talking about the future of American pool?

In life it' not What you say it's HOW you say it. Offering up constructive and helpful criticism is how we teach others. Raising children is a perfect example, you can either wipe em, degrade em, help em or explain what your trying to do. I learned by the whip, and I never used it on my 2 girls because I knew of the consequences on both sides of the whip.

Like Donald Sutherland said years ago, when running his tank unit, in a WWII movie with Don Rickeles.....''Quit with the negative waves''.