PDA

View Full Version : Any Vintage Joss Experts?


rodcar
07-14-2016, 07:56 AM
Bought this cue recently and not sure what era it might be. Thinking a Bill Stoud 68 to 72 but would like to here from those more knowledgeable than myself. It is a 59" cue. Thanks for any help on this one. May be selling it and don't want to over price it. Linen has some scuff marks. Cue is nice and straight, only a ding or two and has ivory ferrules..
428653

428654

428655

428656

tduncan
07-14-2016, 08:00 AM
Bought this cue recently and not sure what era it might be. Thinking a Bill Stoud 68 to 72 but would like to here from those more knowledgeable than myself. It is a 59" cue. Thanks for any help on this one. May be selling it and don't want to over price it. Linen has some scuff marks. Cue is nice and straight, only a ding or two and has ivory ferrules..
428653

428654

428655

428656

Nice cue. That is Dan Janes engraving. The cue is more than likely from the latter 1970s.

cubswin
07-14-2016, 03:39 PM
https://bluebookofpoolcuevalues.com/Pool_Cue_Values/Pool_Cue_Manufacturer.aspx?id=JOSS_CUES_LTD

by that logo, I'd say it was later than about 1973 and made by Dan.

More than likely you could send the photo to him and he would let you know. Usually pretty helpful when you talk with him. The few interactions I've had with him have impressed me with his knowledge of what he's built.

I had a rare phenolic shaft insert in a cue, he remembered building it and offered to buy it back.

rodcar
07-14-2016, 05:19 PM
Would anyone know if 59" was standard length on these cues and if possibly Tim Scruggs may have had a hand in the build. Made an inquiry with Joss but don't expect a reply as I have had little luck with them in the past.
Just read your post Cubswin, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll give Dan a call.

srober40
07-14-2016, 05:24 PM
59" was not standard. Wouldn't call it rare though.

tduncan
07-14-2016, 07:50 PM
Take the bumper off & post a picture. I might can give you a more exact time period if I see it.

WildWing
07-14-2016, 08:51 PM
I see early 80s myself, especially 81 and 82, given those joint collar rings. Also, they used brown KU bumpers in the earlier days of Joss, rather than black. That also doesn't look like the linen they used in the late 60s and early 70s.

Also, 59 inch doesn't mean anything without measuring both butt and shafts. The standard for the early Joss cues was 57 inches, which was 28 1/2 inches for the butt and shafts. Longer shafts were often made later, making the cue longer.

All the best,
WW

cuesblues
07-14-2016, 09:04 PM
I see early 80s myself, especially 81 and 82, given those joint collar rings. Also, they used brown KU bumpers in the earlier days of Joss, rather than black. That also doesn't look like the linen they used in the late 60s and early 70s.

Also, 59 inch doesn't mean anything without measuring both butt and shafts. The standard for the early Joss cues was 57 inches, which was 27 1/2 inches for the butt and shafts. Longer shafts were often made later, making the cue longer.

All the best,
WW

28 1/2 & 28 1/2

My early Joss is 57
The early Josswests are all over the board

Chopdoc
07-14-2016, 09:06 PM
I am really thinking it would be the same era as mine.

I'll be interested to see how this ends up.

Rings are the same as mine. Engraving very similar I think.

Mine has a brown bumper though. Of course, that may have been easily changed.

The linen is Cortland I think. Could be wrong.


.

WildWing
07-14-2016, 09:42 PM
The linen is Cortland I think.



Cortland for your cue, or the cue posted above? The one posted above does not look like Cortland at all. Specks are way too dark.

Chopdoc
07-15-2016, 05:46 AM
Cortland for your cue, or the cue posted above? The one posted above does not look like Cortland at all. Specks are way too dark.

Obviously most likely original, cable laid, and there were several brands used in addition to Cortland.





.

rodcar
07-25-2016, 09:28 AM
Here is a picture with the bumper off. Anymore info. much appreciated.
429359

Chopdoc
07-25-2016, 09:35 AM
Same under the bumper as mine except mine has a brown KU bumper.





.

tduncan
07-25-2016, 10:43 AM
Here is a picture with the bumper off. Anymore info. much appreciated.
429359


Early 80s. Just like WW said. That is the bumper that was being used.

Chopdoc
07-26-2016, 07:24 PM
Early 80s. Just like WW said. That is the bumper that was being used.

Indeed, that bumper and weight bolt were used in the eighties.


But I believe that bumper and weight bolt were also used in the seventies as well. No?



The black bumper like that has exactly the same dimensions as the KU bumper.

The Diamond Series cues, for example, had both the brown Brunswick KU bumper and the black version. That is how they are pictured in the catalog, and I have seen them with both.

I do believe we have seen original Joss cues from the seventies with the black bumper as well as the brown, no?

I am not entirely sure that the bumper color alone can be used to accurately date a Joss.


I do not wish to argue with you, just discuss. You have been a wealth of information on Joss here on AZB and I respect your opinions. You have owned a number of them and certainly know a lot about them. I will stand corrected if you have definitive information.


Back in about 1992 when Janes made my jump cue I ordered a new bumper for my old Joss at the same time. When I ordered it he asked "black or brown?" and he said they were the same bumper in dimensions and the cue might have had either one originally.

My cue had a brown bumper. I ordered black. I didn't know it would matter many years hence but I still have the original anyway as well as several brand new KU bumpers to replace it if I want to. The bumper he sent was an exact match to a KU but black.

My cue currently has the original brown KU on it which shows its age. I will keep one new KU in case it ever needs replaced.





.

WildWing
07-26-2016, 08:34 PM
Indeed, that bumper and weight bolt were used in the eighties.


But I believe that bumper and weight bolt were also used in the seventies as well. No?



The black bumper like that has exactly the same dimensions as the KU bumper.

The Diamond Series cues, for example, had both the brown Brunswick KU bumper and the black version. That is how they are pictured in the catalog, and I have seen them with both.

I do believe we have seen original Joss cues from the seventies with the black bumper as well as the brown, no?

I am not entirely sure that the bumper color alone can be used to accurately date a Joss.


I do not wish to argue with you, just discuss. You have been a wealth of information on Joss here on AZB and I respect your opinions. You have owned a number of them and certainly know a lot about them. I will stand corrected if you have definitive information.


Back in about 1992 when Janes made my jump cue I ordered a new bumper for my old Joss at the same time. When I ordered it he asked "black or brown?" and he said they were the same bumper in dimensions and the cue might have had either one originally.

My cue had a brown bumper. I ordered black. I didn't know it would matter many years hence but I still have the original anyway as well as several brand new KU bumpers to replace it if I want to. The bumper he sent was an exact match to a KU but black.

My cue currently has the original brown KU on it which shows its age. I will keep one new KU in case it ever needs replaced.



That bumper and weight bolt were indeed used in the 70s, from 1976 on.

I believe the answer is 1976 was the cut-over year for Joss moving from the brown KU bumper to the black bumper. I had more than one in that year, so I can be pretty sure it happened in about the middle of the year. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I'm pretty certain of that time period.

The cue we're commenting on has not only the black bumper, but the centrally-located dashed joint collar rings of 1981 and 1982, as well as the darker green speck linen they used from that time period. Actually they used that linen from the mid 70s on, not only 1981 and 1982. They used the lighter green speck Cortland in the earlier 70s as well as late 60s. However, the late 60s cues had different joint collars.

Doc, I'm now thinking your Joss is from the earlier period, pre-1975 or so, probably early 70s, given the bumper and the wrap. And if so, it's a rare one, to have the centrally-located dash rings in the joint collar. I haven't seen another one like it, but I've seen tons of the 1981 and 1982 Joss cues, and they didn't have the KU bumpers.

All the best,
WW

Chopdoc
07-26-2016, 08:49 PM
It's an interesting discussion.

I wonder also if we know when they moved to the narrower butt, more modern dimension cue. In other words, do we know when the fat butt Joss cues were phased out? I think it was fairly early but I don't really know.

Mine is a modern dimension non-fat butt cue...obviously, but I thought I would state it.


I figured that weight bolt started in the mid seventies. You placing it in 76 does not surprise me.


In the end, I don't think there is anything better than just putting a cue in Dan Jane's hands for such info. For the earliest cues I am sure Stroud is at least an equally accurate resource.

A lot of people seem eager to link Stroud or Scruggs to their block letter Joss. I am happy enough to say Janes made my Joss.

I do sometimes wonder what might be marked under the wrap. But hopefully it will never come off in my lifetime.





.

tduncan
07-27-2016, 03:25 PM
That particular black bumper is not the normal one used during the late 80s or 90s. It is different. I've handled enough cues from the early eighties to know & have a few now.

I know what I'm looking for with it.

The stitch ringwork is usually the indicator of the cue being from the late 70s or early 80s. They made the "block letter logo cues" at least up until 1983, maybe later. But that was a transition time. There is overlap with everything.

I think Doc's cue is from the same time. Just my opinion. Again I'm sure there is overlap with them using black or brown bumpers. I never seen a cue verified form the early 70s with that stitch ringwork. Earliest that I've seen is 1978. But again overlap with everything.

Also just because it was made in 1983 vs. 1975 or earlier shouldn't matter. The cues I've handled from the early 80s are usually the better cues. Who makes the best cues the first few years they start making cues? No one. It annoys me to hear people say "the good ones from 68-72". I'm sure Bill Stroud & Dan Janes would agree they were not making their best cues when they started. Those particular cues potentially are more "collectable" because the two legends were making them together & that will never happen again & there are very few left out there left.

As for the wrap I would have to defer to WW on that. As most of my cues I did not see new & he was there to see what the wraps looked like originally. So I would trust his knowledge on that.

tduncan
07-27-2016, 03:31 PM
It's an interesting discussion.

I wonder also if we know when they moved to the narrower butt, more modern dimension cue. In other words, do we know when the fat butt Joss cues were phased out? I think it was fairly early but I don't really know.

Mine is a modern dimension non-fat butt cue...obviously, but I thought I would state it.


I figured that weight bolt started in the mid seventies. You placing it in 76 does not surprise me.


In the end, I don't think there is anything better than just putting a cue in Dan Jane's hands for such info. For the earliest cues I am sure Stroud is at least an equally accurate resource.

A lot of people seem eager to link Stroud or Scruggs to their block letter Joss. I am happy enough to say Janes made my Joss.

I do sometimes wonder what might be marked under the wrap. But hopefully it will never come off in my lifetime.





.


I've had several cues refinished by them & I always take the wrap off before I ship. I've never seen anything that would help indicate anything. I have one cue that Dan refinished before I purchased it & he said the year 1974 was wrote under the wrap & he remembered the cue. Other than that, nothing.

Chopdoc
07-27-2016, 04:23 PM
I've had several cues refinished by them & I always take the wrap off before I ship. I've never seen anything that would help indicate anything. I have one cue that Dan refinished before I purchased it & he said the year 1974 was wrote under the wrap & he remembered the cue. Other than that, nothing.

There was one in the Gallery that Ideologist had refinished that had a name under the wrap. Other than that I have never heard of anything.

Personally, I think my cue was likely made in the late seventies. Using your date, that would be 78 or after. Basically because when I got it in 85 it already looked old, and I was told it was something like 10 years old.

If I had to guess a range I would say 78 to 83 based on the rings.


As you say, there is overlap, so there is some wiggle room on when some of these features might have changed.

They never stopped building customs either, so I guess those could blur the lines as well. Janes still had KU bumpers in his shop in 92 and I bet if you wanted one on a custom build it would not have been a problem.


As far as the later cues likely being better I have to agree. Still, people do love to try to link Stroud or Scruggs to their JOSS.
.



.

WildWing
07-27-2016, 05:16 PM
Agree with everything said above, especially with the overlap in materials with dates.

Probably the reason the mid 70s or so cues are so hard to identify for exact year is that there was a difference in cut-off points with the standard wraps and the standard bumpers. They generally stopped using Cortland wrap somewhere around 1973 to 1974, and they stopped using the brown KU bumpers in 1976, creating a bit of difficulty in identification. This was no doubt due to ease of availability, though a few spools of Cortland lingered for those who wanted it, and knew to ask.

Also agree with Travis, there's not a quality difference based on an earlier vintage, in fact, later examples were probably more refined. But Joss is a strange example, isn't it. Unlike some other cuemakers, it seems that the earlier the better. I chalk it up to a couple reasons. One, there's a chance both Janes and Stroud built the cue, for that matter, Tim Scruggs as well. Also, the iconic earlier Joss cues had plenty of the flat-face ivory joint cues with the rounded 3/8 pin. The only other cuemaker that I was aware of doing that same thing at that time was Bert Schrager. Others doing ivory joints, such as Gus S, were primarily doing piloted joints. So that's another strong identifying feature of the earlier Joss cues.

There you have it. Though later, more refined examples of some cuemakers are more desirable, it seems that with Joss, the earlier, the better, at least for collectors. Sort of like the Mustang, no?

All the best,
WW

rodcar
07-27-2016, 05:54 PM
Thanks for everyone's expertise. One small detail on the bumper. The bumper protrudes on the inside and fits into the groove in the weight bolt. Maybe common to KU bumpers, don't really know. Really enjoying hearing from everyone.

Chopdoc
07-27-2016, 05:57 PM
Thanks for everyone's expertise. One small detail on the bumper. The bumper protrudes on the inside and fits into the groove in the weight bolt. Maybe common to KU bumpers, don't really know. Really enjoying hearing from everyone.



Most likely that's just age. It has been screwed down on that weight bolt a long time and gets molded to the contour of it.




.

srober40
07-27-2016, 06:09 PM
I have seen multiple Joss cues with writing under the wrap. Also have seen purple heart handles under the wrap.

There was also a period where they began marking the collars in white lettering. I have examples from 1982 -1986. The diamond series cues I have seen all have the block lettering.

I believe the gold lettering at the joint began in the late 80's.

A little off topic was the point in the early 80's where the points changed.

if anybody could recommend a good photo sizing app I could post pictures.

srober40
07-27-2016, 06:10 PM
I agree with this 100%


QUOTE=Chopdoc;5620514]Most likely that's just age. It has been screwed down on that weight bolt a long time and gets molded to the contour of it.




.[/QUOTE]

tduncan
07-27-2016, 06:30 PM
I have seen multiple Joss cues with writing under the wrap. Also have seen purple heart handles under the wrap.

There was also a period where they began marking the collars in white lettering. I have examples from 1982 -1986. The diamond series cues I have seen all have the block lettering.

I believe the gold lettering at the joint began in the late 80's.

A little off topic was the point in the early 80's where the points changed.

if anybody could recommend a good photo sizing app I could post pictures.


You have the BEST collection of white letter JOSS cues out there.

With the points changing, again I think there was overlap. I have, as do you, white letter JOSS cues from 1982. From the Diamond series brochure price list they were making these at least through 1983 with sharp points & stitch ring collars. So it had to be at that time. One thing though, I have never seen a "white letter" JOSS cue with sharp points made in the 80s. Has anyone else?

https://josscues.com/photo-gallery/cue-archives/joss-diamond-series/

WildWing
07-27-2016, 06:44 PM
I have never seen a "white letter" JOSS cue with sharp points made in the 80s. Has anyone else?

Agree, definitely not. When they went to the white letters in the early 80s, that was also when the points became routed, rather than stacked, or inlayed veneers. My earliest viewing of the white lettering and routed points was early 1984, but they could have been doing that a year or so earlier.

All the best,
WW

srober40
07-27-2016, 06:49 PM
from what I have seen point construction changed after the diamond series. The diamond series were sharp.

The early white letter series had a rounded outside veneer with sharp points inside. 1982 and 1983

Later on in the white letter series the veneers changed again and were all rounded.

I posted a picture in the Joss cues thread in the gallery that shows some of the transition between early white letter and later

srober40
07-27-2016, 06:57 PM
Agree, definitely not. When they went to the white letters in the early 80s, that was also when the points became routed, rather than stacked, or inlayed veneers. My earliest viewing of the white lettering and routed points was early 1984, but they could have been doing that a year or so earlier.

All the best,
WW

WW

Posted some pics in the gallery thread.

I have not seen a white letter cue with full sharp points.

Chopdoc
07-31-2016, 09:59 AM
Interestingly, here is a gold letter Joss J-15 with a brown bumper I ran into on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOSS-Level-4-J-15-Made-in-Mid-1980s-/152187538205?hash=item236f158b1d:g:0dEAAOSwPRlXmpV x






.

nick serdula
07-31-2016, 12:13 PM
So pre Scruggs Cues. Mid 70's.
If Dunk says it believe it. Also the dashes are wrong. Ask Danny maybe.
Nick :)

rodcar
08-09-2016, 04:57 AM
Talked to Dan Janes last week. He said he is 81 and wouldn't be able to identify any old cues. Played the cue last night and it is indeed a spectacular playing cue. Everyone's input is much appreciated.