PDA

View Full Version : SJDinPhx..clearing things up


wincardona
07-16-2016, 02:29 PM
Dick, back in the day when he was playing his best it took a player like Ronnie Allen to beat him, Dick was clearly one of the best back then...back in the day. Because of that I believe that he put possibly too much value on the top players back then. I'm certainly not implying that they were slouches we both know that's not true, but today's players are at least on a par with the best back then. Dick's opinion on one pocket players is to be respected, however, imo he's a little off with evaluating Reye's game. I do agree that he doesn't play what many consider a good moving game, (traditional) however, that doesn't mean that he can't move. On the contrary he is a spectacular mover, his style is very unique, no other player has had the touch and skill to play caroms, billiards, and shots of that nature as well as Reyes. His balkline proficiency is evidenced in many of his moves, along with his ability to move the cue ball off of caroms and his touch is simply the best. Reyes has a great mind playing all games and understands table percentages, in terms of how to play certain positions that are problematic. I along with many of the champions today will attest to that. Shannon Daulton say's that Reyes moves better than anyone he's ever played. Cliff Joyner is in awe of the man, in terms of his all around onepocket game, he really has no weaknesses. Scott Frost will be the first to tell you how well Reyes plays, he's bragged on him many, many times to me as being the best ever. Dick, I played a lot of players through the 55 years that I have been playing onepocket and I honestly feel without a doubt that Reyes is clearly the best player that I have ever played or watch play. I can go on and explain why I feel that way but I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation on my reasoning. I'll let his accomplishments speak for me instead.

Scott Frost along with Pagulayan are the top two players playing one pocket in the world today, providing that Frost can pull the reigns in on his sometimes over reaching shot selection. Scott's undoing is his belief that he can do too many things on a pool table and that affects his ability to play the score, or even his ability in playing the opponent's strength's and weaknesses. However, when Scott played Reyes he managed the table very well, his shot selection was solid and the results obviously imply that as well. If he can adapt to that style of thinking then he will be very difficult to beat and possibly will start to win more tournaments then his past tournament record reflects.

Now, will Frost be in a "cake walk" playing Orcollo? That's a pretty strong word..cake walk..I think Frost will win but he will be tested and will have to play great or Orcullo will beat him. Dennis Orcullo is a great player playing all games, his ball striking skills are as good as any in the game today and his understanding of one pocket is steadily improving at a fast pace. I would put Orcullo as the 4th or 5th best one pocket players in the world today, playing a game where the difference in proficiency among the 3rd..4th. and 5th. best players aren't much at all.

Today's onepocket as opposed to onepocket played in the 60's, 70's, and even the 80's is much more competitive. The best ball strikers are becoming the best players because of the popularity of the game. Back in the day the best players were the best movers, they were the only one's that understood the game and it's understandable why people today think that players moved better back then because the movers back then dominated. Duh!! Today's one pocket players can all move..so to speak, certainly in comparison to back then. That's why you must respect players like Orcullo and VanBoening, two of the best ball strikers in pool.

Anyways, that's my $.02, and yes your opinion certainly should be respected..always.

Bill Incardona
Add to wincardona's Reputation Report Post

RiverCity
07-16-2016, 02:55 PM
Dick, back in the day when he was playing his best it took a player like Ronnie Allen to beat him, Dick was clearly one of the best back then...back in the day. Because of that I believe that he put possibly too much value on the top players back then. I'm certainly not implying that they were slouches we both know that's not true, but today's players are at least on a par with the best back then. Dick's opinion on one pocket players is to be respected, however, imo he's a little off with evaluating Reye's game. I do agree that he doesn't play what many consider a good moving game, (traditional) however, that doesn't mean that he can't move. On the contrary he is a spectacular mover, his style is very unique, no other player has had the touch and skill to play caroms, billiards, and shots of that nature as well as Reyes. His balkline proficiency is evidenced in many of his moves, along with his ability to move the cue ball off of caroms and his touch is simply the best. Reyes has a great mind playing all games and understands table percentages, in terms of how to play certain positions that are problematic. I along with many of the champions today will attest to that. Shannon Daulton say's that Reyes moves better than anyone he's ever played. Cliff Joyner is in awe of the man, in terms of his all around onepocket game, he really has no weaknesses. Scott Frost will be the first to tell you how well Reyes plays, he's bragged on him many, many times to me as being the best ever. Dick, I played a lot of players through the 55 years that I have been playing onepocket and I honestly feel without a doubt that Reyes is clearly the best player that I have ever played or watch play. I can go on and explain why I feel that way but I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation on my reasoning. I'll let his accomplishments speak for me instead.

Scott Frost along with Pagulayan are the top two players playing one pocket in the world today, providing that Frost can pull the reigns in on his sometimes over reaching shot selection. Scott's undoing is his belief that he can do too many things on a pool table and that affects his ability to play the score, or even his ability in playing the opponent's strength's and weaknesses. However, when Scott played Reyes he managed the table very well, his shot selection was solid and the results obviously imply that as well. If he can adapt to that style of thinking then he will be very difficult to beat and possibly will start to win more tournaments then his past tournament record reflects.

Now, will Frost be in a "cake walk" playing Orcollo? That's a pretty strong word..cake walk..I think Frost will win but he will be tested and will have to play great or Orcullo will beat him. Dennis Orcullo is a great player playing all games, his ball striking skills are as good as any in the game today and his understanding of one pocket is steadily improving at a fast pace. I would put Orcullo as the 4th or 5th best one pocket players in the world today, playing a game where the difference in proficiency among the 3rd..4th. and 5th. best players aren't much at all.

Today's onepocket as opposed to onepocket played in the 60's, 70's, and even the 80's is much more competitive. The best ball strikers are becoming the best players because of the popularity of the game. Back in the day the best players were the best movers, they were the only one's that understood the game and it's understandable why people today think that players moved better back then because the movers back then dominated. Duh!! Today's one pocket players can all move..so to speak, certainly in comparison to back then. That's why you must respect players like Orcullo and VanBoening, two of the best ball strikers in pool.

Anyways, that's my $.02, and yes your opinion certainly should be respected..always.

Bill Incardona
Add to wincardona's Reputation Report Post

I tried, but it says I need to spread some around first..... Tap tap tap. :thumbup:

dawgcpa
07-16-2016, 03:37 PM
Here's the problem I have with the argument....

He's essentially saying he knows Efren won but not the right way. That's like saying Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but not the greatest because he wasn't proficient with the bounce pass or shooting free throws granny style. The game has changed and Efren changed it. The playing conditions have also changed. I know the old players were great and I didn't see a lot of them play but I have watched what I could on YouTube and accustats. Efren, Alex, and Dennis will run out on anybody. I don't think you can out move them. The finals in the California tournament the other day placed an older mover against Dennis and Dennis won. The issue movers have is the pressure is too great because they can't make any mistakes. If so, it's 8 and out.

SJDinPHX
07-16-2016, 03:44 PM
Dick, back in the day when he was playing his best it took a player like Ronnie Allen to beat him, Dick was clearly one of the best back then...back in the day. Because of that I believe that he put possibly too much value on the top players back then. I'm certainly not implying that they were slouches we both know that's not true, but today's players are at least on a par with the best back then. Dick's opinion on one pocket players is to be respected, however, imo he's a little off with evaluating Reye's game. I do agree that he doesn't play what many consider a good moving game, (traditional) however, that doesn't mean that he can't move. On the contrary he is a spectacular mover, his style is very unique, no other player has had the touch and skill to play caroms, billiards, and shots of that nature as well as Reyes. His balkline proficiency is evidenced in many of his moves, along with his ability to move the cue ball off of caroms and his touch is simply the best. Reyes has a great mind playing all games and understands table percentages, in terms of how to play certain positions that are problematic. I along with many of the champions today will attest to that. Shannon Daulton say's that Reyes moves better than anyone he's ever played. Cliff Joyner is in awe of the man, in terms of his all around onepocket game, he really has no weaknesses. Scott Frost will be the first to tell you how well Reyes plays, he's bragged on him many, many times to me as being the best ever. Dick, I played a lot of players through the 55 years that I have been playing onepocket and I honestly feel without a doubt that Reyes is clearly the best player that I have ever played or watch play. I can go on and explain why I feel that way but I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation on my reasoning. I'll let his accomplishments speak for me instead.

Scott Frost along with Pagulayan are the top two players playing one pocket in the world today, providing that Frost can pull the reigns in on his sometimes over reaching shot selection. Scott's undoing is his belief that he can do too many things on a pool table and that affects his ability to play the score, or even his ability in playing the opponent's strength's and weaknesses. However, when Scott played Reyes he managed the table very well, his shot selection was solid and the results obviously imply that as well. If he can adapt to that style of thinking then he will be very difficult to beat and possibly will start to win more tournaments then his past tournament record reflects.

Now, will Frost be in a "cake walk" playing Orcollo? That's a pretty strong word..cake walk..I think Frost will win but he will be tested and will have to play great or Orcullo will beat him. Dennis Orcullo is a great player playing all games, his ball striking skills are as good as any in the game today and his understanding of one pocket is steadily improving at a fast pace. I would put Orcullo as the 4th or 5th best one pocket players in the world today, playing a game where the difference in proficiency among the 3rd..4th. and 5th. best players aren't much at all.

Today's onepocket as opposed to onepocket played in the 60's, 70's, and even the 80's is much more competitive. The best ball strikers are becoming the best players because of the popularity of the game. Back in the day the best players were the best movers, they were the only one's that understood the game and it's understandable why people today think that players moved better back then because the movers back then dominated. Duh!! Today's one pocket players can all move..so to speak, certainly in comparison to back then. That's why you must respect players like Orcullo and VanBoening, two of the best ball strikers in pool.

Anyways, that's my $.02, and yes your opinion certainly should be respected..always.

Bill Incardona
Add to wincardona's Reputation Report Post

Boy, that is a record length for a Dr. Bill post !..Let me just say, I am in total agreement with almost every single point you made!.. I might just add, that the progression in 1P, from "Mover" to "Shooter/Mover" began with RA, (in the 60's) and has only increased many fold!..I admit, The game has become almost unrecognizable, from its earlier days!

This is due in no small part, to the amazing skills of players like Efren, Alex, and a few others, who have made it almost a completely different game!..I have to wonder if RA, Worst, (or on a lesser scale, myself) could have kept pace with all the changes..Ie; new improved balls and faster cloth, livlier rails, etc.?..We will never know, will we?

The one who has most endured all those changes, is IMO Shannon Dalton.. Now, as his career winds down, he has not been a factor for quite some time now!..In any event, I really enjoyed your post, and as usual, you are right on the money with your observations!..Except you have me a little over rated.. but thanks anyway..;)

PS..Bill, I doubt if I would have been able to give Effie more than 8/7, maybe 10/8....in our respective primes, of course!..:grin: :grin: :grin:

SJDinPHX
07-16-2016, 04:21 PM
Here's the problem I have with the argument....

He's essentially saying he knows Efren won but not the right way. That's like saying Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but not the greatest because he wasn't proficient with the bounce pass or shooting free throws granny style. The game has changed and Efren changed it. The playing conditions have also changed. I know the old players were great and I didn't see a lot of them play but I have watched what I could on YouTube and accustats. Efren, Alex, and Dennis will run out on anybody. I don't think you can out move them. The finals in the California tournament the other day placed an older mover against Dennis and Dennis won. The issue movers have is the pressure is too great because they can't make any mistakes. If so, it's 8 and out.

Mr Dawg..For a guy who admits he has never seen the older players in action, live..you sure have some very strong opinions about our 1P games!..But thats OK..Nothing wrong with you favoring the current crop of younger top players..Let me just say this, if I were 30 years younger, (which would make me 52) I would put up my wife, kids, house, and cars, for a chance to play Dennis Orcullo at his current level of play. :thumbup:

Hacker (Rob Melrose) allowed Dennis to pull down the money when he played him!..I would have had him twice as frustrated as Hacker did!..In order to run all those '8 and outs', you must first beat your opponent to the shot!..Sounds to me, like you need a little more pool 'railbird' experience! (this ain't basketball:o)..Old bulls may not be as fast as young ones, but they can be every bit as dangerous!.:eek:

dawgcpa
07-16-2016, 04:45 PM
Mr Dawg..For a guy who admits he has never seen the older players in action, live..you sure have some very strong opinions about our 1P games!..But thats OK..Nothing wrong with you favoring the current crop of younger top players..Let me just say this, if I were 30 years younger, (which would make me 52) I would put up my wife, kids, house, and cars, for a chance to play Dennis Orcullo at his current level of play. :thumbup:

Hacker (Rob Melrose) allowed Dennis to pull down the money when he played him!..I would have had him twice as frustrated as Hacker did!..In order to run all those '8 and outs', you must first beat your opponent to the shot!..Sounds to me, like you need a little more pool 'railbird' experience! (this ain't basketball:o)..Old bulls may not be as fast as young ones, but they can be every bit as dangerous!.:eek:

Did you match up and play efren 30 years ago?

bbb
07-16-2016, 05:17 PM
billy and dick
i sent you both greenies....:smile:
didnt want to get the jewish guilt that only sent it to one of you (which one???:rolleyes:)
my 2 cents
any of the champions if they were born 20-30 years ago not 50-70 years ago
would play championship speed relative to the competition

bbb
07-16-2016, 05:22 PM
the difference today is the confidence and ability of shots the players
KNOW THEY WILL MAKE
are different from years past
still when i start to teach someone one pocket
i tell them the goal/strategy of onepocket is to NOT LET YOUR OPPONENT GET 8 before you do....:smile:

SJDinPHX
07-16-2016, 05:33 PM
Did you match up and play efren 30 years ago?

No sir, Efren did not even come to the US until, I believe 1985..(check with Billy I. on that)..He spent several more yrs. perfecting his 1P game, 'til he became almost unbeatable, as his record shows..As for myself, I was on a hiatus, and completely out of action at pool, from 1973 to 1993. (newly married, and had a great job at UPS)

When I retired from UPS, (at about age 60) and began playing again, Efren had already become a dominant force in one pocket..I had no desire to challenge him at that time, he would have tortured me. In fact, although I have seen him several times at a few events, I have never formally met, or been introduced to Efren..My loss!

I really enjoyed getting back in the game again, and was still competitive at 1P with guys like Jack Cooney, Buddy Hall, Weenie Beenie, and an 'over the hill' Ronnie Allen..Efren was already in another league from those guys!..Anyway, nice chatting with you Dawg!

Dick

King T
07-16-2016, 05:33 PM
Is Scott a better One Pocket player the Tony? I mean head to head does Scott have to like that Action?

SJDinPHX
07-16-2016, 05:41 PM
billy and dick
i sent you both greenies....:smile:
didnt want to get the jewish guilt that only sent it to one of you (which one???:rolleyes:)
my 2 cents
any of the champions if they were born 20-30 years ago not 50-70 years ago
would play championship speed relative to the competition

Larry, I guess you're saying being born 80 yrs. ago, would not make it under the wire, huh? ;)

Hope you are doing well..Visit us more often over here!

Dick

bbb
07-16-2016, 06:52 PM
Larry, I guess you're saying being born 80 yrs. ago, would not make it under the wire, huh? ;)

Hope you are doing well..Visit us more often over here!

Dick
no dick what i am saying is
if someone had the skills to be in the top 2% 80 years ago
they
woud be in the top 2 % in any era they were born into
given equipment of the respective time
time devoted to excel...etc
i am doing well thank god and i do visit "over here" (jam for give me if i should only use
one of these ...' and not two ..."
:grin:

one stroke
07-16-2016, 07:26 PM
Larry, I guess you're saying being born 80 yrs. ago, would not make it under the wire, huh? ;)

Hope you are doing well..Visit us more often over here!

Dick

I don't know a lot about the game Dick but Mike S told me today's player bunt balls back down table where player yrs ago played more around the stack where moving was more critical ,


1

GaryB
07-17-2016, 01:24 AM
My limited experience with 1 Pocket began with Jack Cooney towards the end of his career. He was playing out of Hard Times and attracted many road players to the room, especially since Mark Betar was there to stake him to any game that might walk in. The game then was much different then than what I see today. One match I watched between Jack and Toby was 8 ahead and took 3 days. Jack was down 6 games the 1st night and he and Incardonna were in the restroom discussing how Jack could slow him down. As I left that 1st night I stopped and talked to "Little Al" Romero. Al told me that Jack would come back because "he was a war horse." I had my doubts. Today a match like that might take 8-10 hours. Different game featuring added skill sets.

A friend is loaning me a couple of DVD's of SHDinPhoe. I obviously slighted him in a different thread due to my ignorance of his standing in the game. However, if Bill Incardonna holds him in such high esteem I need to reevaluate my opinion through watching him play. I have watched many matches of Incardonna in person and on DVD as well as watching him book matches at Pro events. His knowledge and astuteness in evaluating players is 2nd to none.

SJDinPHX
07-17-2016, 10:01 AM
I don't know a lot about the game Dick but Mike S told me today's player bunt balls back down table where player yrs ago played more around the stack where moving was more critical ,

I don't know which 'Mike' you are referring to, but I don't necessarally agree with him..I think since RA introduced his unique brand of power 1P in the 60's, all I've seen is the top players getting more and more aggressive..There were always a few good players that preferred 'bumping and moving'..IMO, they seem to be a lot fewer now.

PS..This would also somewhat depend on who your opponent is..If he is a better ball runner than you are, it may be wise to move the balls uptable, to avoid the '8 and out'!

SJDinPHX
07-17-2016, 11:07 AM
Is Scott a better One Pocket player the Tony? I mean head to head does Scott have to like that Action?

I would ask Billy I. that question. I am not that familiar with Tony's game..But, from the few streams I've caught him on, his overall game is very impressive!.. In my opinion he would probably give Scott all he could handle.(and maybe more :cool:)

wincardona
07-17-2016, 12:59 PM
I would ask Billy I. that question. I am not that familiar with Tony's game..But, from the few streams I've caught him on, his overall game is very impressive!.. In my opinion he would probably give Scott all he could handle.(and maybe more :cool:)

Dick, I can't put Tony ahead or even on a par with Frost and Pagulayan, not just yet. However, Tony's game is super strong when his head is screwed on straight, he and Scott have similar games and when they're playing well that particular match up would be very intertaining and very close..imo. Tony is a great player, however, his style of play is difficult to sustain a high level because of not only his aggressive style but also all the different strokes he uses when running balls and controlling the cue ball. Tony has a beautiful finesse game along with a power game and he plays all aspects of his game very, very well. I would have to put him in the third position in ranking the best players. And yes I would love to watch Tony and Scott due battle but i'm guessing that that's not going to happen anytime soon because Scott needs to spend more of his time in putting up his new pool room in Phoenix and less time on the table..too bad for us.

Tony will be playing Bustamante and if he wins I suspect that a Chohan, Pagulayan match would be on the horizon, jmo.

Bill Incardona