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Lesh
07-18-2016, 04:45 AM
I was reading a thread here talking about whether or not it was a good idea to rescue someone in a bad match up with some sound advice regarding their opponent. Like if a Touring C++ player was matching up against a universally respected local short-stop that can pretty much dismember most players at will. This is not necessarily a bad situation, provided the game and money are correct for the sets to be played. I think we can all agree on this.

If the game and money are proportionally correct, then people need to just rail bird on and STFU. This feeds neatly into the real point of this post... Action Killers and Action Killing behavior. Talk about grey area. Woooooo!

What sayest thee to the prospect of talking about any ones skill level?
Does it matter what the context is? If so, what...
Does it matter who you are talking to and who you are talking about?
Is there a threshold of familiarity one should attain before offering an appraisal of speed?

Loose the pigeons!

Lesh

Tramp Steamer
07-18-2016, 05:04 AM
Yes, I agree to shutting the F up. What goes on in the poolroom is no one's business but the two guys engaged in that business.
A touring C++ player? What's he playing out of, the trunk of an '84 Buick Le Sabre? There's a story right there.

Life on the road for Stan Meuccial is a tough one. From town to town he goes, looking for action. Sometimes he finds it, sometimes it finds him.
When we last saw Stan he was in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, at a place called The Lucky Cod, playing One Pocket with a shoe salesman from Waukesha. Stan was down to his last five dollars and the bet was ten a game. The pressure was on............:smile:

Lesh
07-18-2016, 05:09 AM
Yes, I agree to shutting the F up. What goes on in the poolroom is no one's business but the two guys engaged in that business.
A touring C++ player? What's he playing out of, the trunk of an '84 Buick Le Sabre? There's a story right there.

Life on the road for Stan Meuccial is a tough one. From town to town he goes, looking for action. Sometimes he finds it, sometimes it finds him.
When we last saw Stan he was in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, at a place called The Lucky Cod, playing One Pocket with a shoe salesman from Waukesha. Stan was down to his last five dollars and the bet was ten a game. The pressure was on............:smile:

LOL The Lucky Cod.

You and I need to write about the hard-boiled sordid life, action and times of Stan.... the pool players every man. Internationally hailed Touring C. We could get Peter Faulk to play him in the movie.

BeiberLvr
07-18-2016, 05:20 AM
What's the point of this thread?

This was already discussed thoroughly in the thread that you referenced.

Kickin' Chicken
07-18-2016, 05:21 AM
lf the players are grown men they are responsible for themselves and I would have no place sticking my nose in their business.

Slightly different when gambling with other railbirds. :wink:

Tramp Steamer
07-18-2016, 05:26 AM
LOL The Lucky Cod.

You and I need to write about the hard-boiled sordid life, action and times of Stan.... the pool players every man. Internationally hailed Touring C. We could get Peter Faulk to play him in the movie.

All right. We'll make it a serial. You start a new thread with the title Man on the Run: The Stan Meuccial Story.
Cast of characters:
1. Stan Meuccial, a C level road player who try as he may can never make that one big score.
2. Bart Witherspoon, Stan's nemisis and owner of the Lucky Cod, a seafood restaurant and poolroom in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.
3. Melody Meuccial, Stan's one-legged but faithful girlfriend, and mother of his three-year old son Luther.
4. Eightball, Stan's faithful, but incredibly stupid, dog.

Lesh
07-18-2016, 05:26 AM
What's the point of this thread?

This was already discussed thoroughly in the thread that you referenced.

"What sayest thee to the prospect of talking about any ones skill level?
Does it matter what the context is? If so, what...
Does it matter who you are talking to and who you are talking about?
Is there a threshold of familiarity one should attain before offering an appraisal of speed?"


Just take small shallow breaths... slow down. You will be just fine. Pick a spot and concentrate on it.

Love and skittles,

Lesh

justadub
07-18-2016, 06:55 AM
What I've learned is that no matter what I think about it, I know that I certainly am not gonna get involved in it.

Buzzard II
07-18-2016, 07:05 AM
But unknown to readers and railbirds alike, Stan has trained Eightball, a pit bull, to rip the ass end out of a pair of jeans of short-stop hustlers late at night in dark alleys.

Stan in fact does not live in and drive a '84 Buick but a 2016 Cadillac and never stays in a motel of lesser quality than a Hampton Inn.

So the real question here is just who is it that needs the help?

Tramp Steamer
07-18-2016, 07:54 AM
But unknown to readers and railbirds alike, Stan has trained Eightball, a pit bull, to rip the ass end out of a pair of jeans of short-stop hustlers late at night in dark alleys.
Stan in fact does not live in and drive a '84 Buick but a 2016 Cadillac and never stays in a motel of lesser quality than a Hampton Inn.

So the real question here is just who is it that needs the help?

I think I do. The doctor said it should go away in a couple of weeks, and that was three years ago. :grin-square:

jojopiff
07-18-2016, 09:10 AM
What I've learned is that no matter what I think about it, I know that I certainly am not gonna get involved in it.

Spectacular advice. Pool room and many other aspects of life.

Buzzard II
07-18-2016, 09:13 AM
Tramp, I've been reading your stuff a lot longer than three years. You should have gone to the doctor sooner.

BTW, I really have grown fond of the idea of a wallet fetching pit bull. I've had these dark thoughts for over 40 years.

ceebee
07-18-2016, 09:25 AM
Do you let your friend (s) get into bad games...

I'm not talking about "lunch money", but what about "Rent Money" or "New Car Money"...

Do you mind you own business or do you "kill the action"? More than likely, you & I have our biases.

When Wall Street taught me not to gamble anymore, I followed their advice. I can't even afford to lose my lunch money now, 'cause then I wouldn't eat. Being an old man & not having a way to replenish my cash, has permanently side lined me. But, I still have my integrity intact.

I like to watch folks gamble... but I don't like to watch a robbery.

justadub
07-18-2016, 09:36 AM
Do you let your friend (s) get into bad games...

I'm not talking about "lunch money", but what about "Rent Money" or "New Car Money"...

Do you mind you own business or do you "kill the action"? More than likely, you & I have our biases.

When Wall Street taught me not to gamble anymore, I followed their advice. I can't even afford to lose my lunch money now, 'cause then I wouldn't eat. Being an old man & not having a way to replenish my cash, has permanently side lined me. But, I still have my integrity intact.

I like to watch folks gamble... but I don't like to watch a robbery.

I know that above I said that I wouldn't get involved. I guess I wasn't thinking of your scenario.

If its a friend of mine, getting in way over their head, I might try and get their attention at some point, or hopefully during a bathroom or smoke break. And just ask them if they are sure of what they are doing....

As far as watching a robbery, between people that I don't know, well I would just stop watching. Cuz it's pretty obvious that in the pool world, these things are supposed to happen and no one is supposed to prevent them from happening. It's a badge of honor to rob someone. The fabled "hustle" is everything.

Glad I don't live in that world. Yes, there is some gambling in our pool rooms locally, and likely much more than I'm aware of. And I'm quite happy with that lack of awareness. I like most of the people that play there too much.

pt109
07-18-2016, 10:23 AM
I ran a lot of handicap snooker tournaments in the 80s....
....and I gambled a lot, often handicaps involved.

So many players would come to me for advice in making a game...often both players
would ask me to make a fair game for them.
...I wouldn't get involved with their gambling action....told them they could lie to each
other all they wanted.
To me, I gamble by the rules of poker...play your hand the best way you know how.

One player, almost pro speed, figured out how to cope with my no-knocking rules....
....he would make a game, and then ask me me if I wanted some of the action...
...if I wouldn't go in with him, he would consider it a bad game and take a pass.
.....I actually won a fair amount with this guy over the years.

TopShot
07-18-2016, 11:57 AM
I think like most things, its a complex answer that has too many variables to even really discuss here, at least if you are speaking in general terms, not one specific incident.

Hell, I'd say pool has little to do with it. At what point do you try to stop people from making a bad or uninformed decision? That answer is different for everyone.

spktur
07-18-2016, 12:47 PM
Yes, I agree to shutting the F up. What goes on in the poolroom is no one's business but the two guys engaged in that business.
A touring C++ player? What's he playing out of, the trunk of an '84 Buick Le Sabre? There's a story right there.

Life on the road for Stan Meuccial is a tough one. From town to town he goes, looking for action. Sometimes he finds it, sometimes it finds him.
When we last saw Stan he was in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, at a place called The Lucky Cod, playing One Pocket with a shoe salesman from Waukesha. Stan was down to his last five dollars and the bet was ten a game. The pressure was on............:smile:

If the road is too tough maybe he ought to try a job for a change.

DJSTEVEZ
07-18-2016, 12:54 PM
It was my understanding that that the Golden Rule was you never knock anyone's action.

If the pigeon was, you know, mentally retarded or something, then I can see intervening and standing up for the guy. Short of that, we all know the rules, and most of us have paid the tuition at one time or another to learn them. Caveat Emptor. -Z-

Hell, I'd say pool has little to do with it. At what point do you try to stop people from making a bad or uninformed decision? That answer is different for everyone.

Exactly! Next thing you know you have a "Nanny State" like Bloomberg was building in NYC.

M.G.
07-18-2016, 12:57 PM
I will kill "action" any day of the week. Mercilessly. I don't care about any rules or whatever hustler ethic. It's scum.
There's no place for it in a pool etablisment.

jasonlaus
07-18-2016, 01:06 PM
I will kill "action" any day of the week. Mercilessly. I don't care about any rules or whatever hustler ethic. It's scum.
There's no place for it in a pool etablisment.

Lol................

DJSTEVEZ
07-18-2016, 01:07 PM
I will kill "action" any day of the week. Mercilessly. I don't care about any rules or whatever hustler ethic. It's scum. There's no place for it in a pool etablisment.

You're entitled to your feelings...but at the end of the day, they're exactly that, just feelings. Having said that, I'd be careful about the choices & actions you take in a Pool Hall. Many a person who's done what you're advocating has met with some horrible consequences. Let me be clear, that's not a threat from me, I'm just sharing what I know to be true.

The issue I have with that type of thinking is next thing you know we've elected leaders who want to ban sodas over a certain size because when over-consumed over time, there's negative health effects. It's a slippery slope. No one puts a gun to anyone's head to gamble. When one gambles there are inherent risks, regardless of whether the gambler is aware of them or not. Given your convictions there are a lot of people in Las Vegas you can help as they're at the tables gambling without the slightest idea of what they're up against, the odds, what the odds mean, or even how to play. Maybe people should have to pass a course before they can legally gamble to prove they know what it is they need to know. Gambling by definition includes risk. I mean really, at what point to people get to be self-reliant and have to live with the consequences of their choices? -Z-

Nick B
07-18-2016, 01:30 PM
I remember long time ago when I first walked into a real pool hall with action...rule one...shut your trap. Hey did you see that hit? Sorry man wasn't paying attention. Never get between someone and their business.

Now on killing action I have two sub rules. Kids get protected. They are dumb and should not be hustled by adults. The other is a friend who is asking an opinion. If asked I will provide suitable observation. Otherwise be quite and stay out of it.


Regards

Nick B

philly
07-18-2016, 01:33 PM
I always thought that in a poolroom "mind your own business" was an unwritten rule and one which I heartily ascribe to. Not a bad rule for anywhere you go either.

Tramp Steamer
07-18-2016, 01:37 PM
If the road is too tough maybe he ought to try a job for a change.


What? And give up show business? :thumbup:

jojopiff
07-18-2016, 01:55 PM
I make a point to almost never tell another grown man what to do. I wouldn't watch or cheer on any hustle where a guy is getting robbed, but I damn sure ain't gonna stop it.

If it was a 'friend' of mine, I'd ask them if they know what they're doing and if they then asked me what I thought of the game I'd tell them. If they said yes I know what I'm doing, I'd keep my hole shut.

If it was a great friend of mine (1 person) I would have a fistfight with him (he doesn't gamble so irrelevant but if he did and were drunk and in a bad game...) to get him outta there as I know him, his wife, and their kids, and vacation with them and know they cannot afford to lose any money much less a lot of money.

bazkook
07-18-2016, 02:16 PM
Butting in on someone's action is definitely not cool in most instances. IMO if someone in their right mind is out of their league and being stubborn by not wanting to quit while they still have some pride and money left, then they deserve to learn a hard lesson. I wish someone had stopped me from playing some of the shortstops I have played over the years and I might have saved some money lol. I never lost more than I could afford to lose; however I have sometimes played for more than I could stand to lose. :wink:
Personally the only time I would intervene is if one of my very close friends or family got in over their head.

GideonF
07-18-2016, 02:22 PM
You're entitled to your feelings...but at the end of the day, they're exactly that, just feelings. Having said that, I'd be careful about the choices & actions you take in a Pool Hall. Many a person who's done what you're advocating has met with some horrible consequences. Let me be clear, that's not a threat from me, I'm just sharing what I know to be true.

The issue I have with that type of thinking is next thing you know we've elected leaders who want to ban sodas over a certain size because when over-consumed over time, there's negative health effects. It's a slippery slope. No one puts a gun to anyone's head to gamble. When one gambles there are inherent risks, regardless of whether the gambler is aware of them or not. Given your convictions there are a lot of people in Las Vegas you can help as they're at the tables gambling without the slightest idea of what they're up against, the odds, what the odds mean, or even how to play. Maybe people should have to pass a course before they can legally gamble to prove they know what it is they need to know. Gambling by definition includes risk. I mean really, at what point to people get to be self-reliant and have to live with the consequences of their choices? -Z-

I recognize that reasonable people differ on the underlying issue of the morality of hustling, but thinking hustling is wrong is not a slippery slope to a nanny state. Indeed, if we are talking about people's personal freedom, that might include someone's right to knock the action!

To me, there are really two different issues.

(1) is it morally okay to hustle? My own answer, and I respect those who have a different view, is that lying about your skill, your identity etc. is wrong. If people want to gamble, great. If they make a fair game, even better. But if they make an unfair game without deception, also fine, IMO.

(2) is it okay to interfere when you see action/hustling? Ignoring the real risk of bodily harm for getting involved, again my own view is that IF you know of deception it is morally okay to tell the party being deceived (especially if you know them). If you saw a world champ asking for weight from a C player who has no clue, its not wrong to warn the chump. But if it is just action and no deception, I think you should butt out, even if it is a bad game.

spktur
07-18-2016, 03:04 PM
What? And give up show business? :thumbup:

Or he could learn to dance better then maybe the road wouldn't be so tough.

Years ago a bookie friend was in a room one night and everyone knew he would

play. So this road player comes up to him and said he heard he liked to play

for something and my buddy said 'that's right' so the guy asked him if he

wanted to play some for 20-30 and my buddy told him he had the wrong guy.

He might play for 500 or a 1000.

So the road player goes and gets his cue and comes back and my buddy

says now we got the bet right lets get the game right and he proceeds to tell

him how he has played other players who have come by and the guy says 'oh

I don't play like those guys.'

So at this point my buddy tells the 'well you go practice and get better. I

don't want to get beat by anyone who can't play.'

DJSTEVEZ
07-18-2016, 03:10 PM
but thinking hustling is wrong is not a slippery slope to a nanny state..

Awesome response and very well written. Agreed. I also agree that, as someone above had said, sharing your opinion with a friend and protecting kids are more than acceptable exceptions.

What I'm addressing as a slippery slope to a Nanny state is the thinking/logic of someone who self-appoints themselves as the Police over the business that was entered into by 2 consenting adults when the endeavor is Gambling on Pool. Risk is part of the deal. If someone fails miserably at sizing up the competition, that's on them. In Pool room culture it's not the job of the superman wannabe to intervene. When there's money on the line it is not a reasonable expectation for an opponent to be open about their speed. We either all know that going in or we've learned it, and hopefully it only took once, the hard way.

What gets stuck in my craw are these self-righteous types who feel they have this noble obligation (read: grandiose) because somehow they "know better" than the rest of the world and thus intervene & coerce, uninvited, change from those who have a right to choose a behavior that's not good for them.

Then there's the real question; are such types really doing this for the benefit of the those whose right it is to make a bad choice, or are they doing it to feed their grandiose sense of self importance? Speaking of gambling, I would wager it's more often the latter than it is the former. :wink: -Z-

deanoc
07-18-2016, 04:18 PM
The worse penalty I ever saw for knocking was ostracizing him from the group
that he so highly wanted to be in with

maha
07-18-2016, 05:24 PM
is rd still alive dean?

Island Drive
07-18-2016, 05:30 PM
I was reading a thread here talking about whether or not it was a good idea to rescue someone in a bad match up with some sound advice regarding their opponent. Like if a Touring C++ player was matching up against a universally respected local short-stop that can pretty much dismember most players at will. This is not necessarily a bad situation, provided the game and money are correct for the sets to be played. I think we can all agree on this.

If the game and money are proportionally correct, then people need to just rail bird on and STFU. This feeds neatly into the real point of this post... Action Killers and Action Killing behavior. Talk about grey area. Woooooo!

What sayest thee to the prospect of talking about any ones skill level?
Does it matter what the context is? If so, what...
Does it matter who you are talking to and who you are talking about?
Is there a threshold of familiarity one should attain before offering an appraisal of speed?

Loose the pigeons!

Lesh

A 114 year old woman was asked the pat question....''what do you attribute to you living such a long life''.

Tend To Your Own Business....

deanoc
07-18-2016, 05:55 PM
all is well

Direwolf
07-18-2016, 06:06 PM
The word of the day is MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. If two grown adults are gambling and it's a bad game for one of them, that person always has the option to quit or ask to adjust. Do the people that want to butt in someone else's business also hang around car dealerships offering their advice as to whether someone is getting a good deal on their car purchase?....I don't think so! So if it doesn't involve me or mine I don't consider it my business.

androd
07-19-2016, 09:24 AM
Most knockers are best friends with everybody in the pool room.
Their excuse is "well he's a good friend of mine" :)
P.S. The knocker couldn't borrow $25.00 from any of them.

Lesh
07-19-2016, 10:58 AM
So I posed the same question to my collection of cantankerous evil sodomites at my home pool hall. I had (foolishly) asked if any of them had lurked on AZB and saw my questions about Action Killers. After they gave me the cow eyes for 5 or 6 seconds, I put it to them and here is the semi-consensus:

If the snake-bit person in question hemorrhaging cash into a killing machine is a person that has bled for you, lent you MONEY (not money... but MONEY), bailed you out, helped you fight your way out of or joined you in getting an epic ass kicking, or anything along those lines. This is the kind of person that you will know well enough if they are working someone over with hidden stroke disease or not and so there is no reason to say anything at all. The one exception to this is if the friend in question has a history of stupidity matching up or alcohol-induced stupidity. Each has its own remedy, to be applied immediately in any event.

If you happen to notice an acquaintance of yours or a complete stranger may have made a severe blunder in matching up... STFU or die in a fire. Your choice.

So thanks to all that contributed.

Regards,

Lesh

DJSTEVEZ
07-19-2016, 11:12 AM
To settle this philosophical conundrum, need we anything more than the sage wisdom of Joe Pant's iconic portrayal of Guido, the Killer Pimp?

"Never, ever ***** with another man's livelihood"

Nuff said :cool:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f3/ca/42/f3ca42946f8b742b620e4e65200ea903.jpg