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jtompilot
07-22-2016, 07:18 AM
Does anyone know when OB knocked off the table became a foul? From what I remember when I read my first rule book in the 70's it was a foul. I know some people playing 1P play its not a foul.

Skratch
07-22-2016, 07:49 AM
Generally speaking, any ball knocked off the table is a foul. What you do with that foul depends on the rules of the particular game/league/house you're using.
For example, many rule sets of 8ball, it would be loss of turn and maybe ball in hand. If it was the 8ball itself, it might be a loss of game. You'll have to be more specific under which game condition you are referring to for AZB members to give you an accurate reply.

Keep them on the table and good luck!

Add:
Just reread your post. Are you asking "WHEN" the rule came into affect, or if its a foul? Please clarify.

WoodyMPW
07-22-2016, 07:54 AM
If it's not a foul, does the other guy shoot it from the floor under the neighboring table?

Someone should make a wedge cue for that.

Bob Jewett
07-22-2016, 08:28 AM
Does anyone know when OB knocked off the table became a foul? From what I remember when I read my first rule book in the 70's it was a foul. I know some people playing 1P play its not a foul.
The rule for 9 ball first appeared in the BCA rule book in 1993, but I think it was in effect prior to that at pro tournaments.

But the rule through the 1980s was that a ball onto the floor was not a foul -- it just spotted up. At that time illegally pocketed balls were also spotted. At carom billiards (in the US) it was also legal to drive a ball off the table and there were exhibition shots where you needed it to avoid a kiss.

The official rules of one pocket from onepocket.org say that a ball off the table is a foul. A note goes on to say that some people play it as not a foul.

jtompilot
07-22-2016, 08:32 AM
The rule for 9 ball first appeared in the BCA rule book in 1993, but I think it was in effect prior to that at pro tournaments.

But the rule through the 1980s was that a ball onto the floor was not a foul -- it just spotted up. At that time illegally pocketed balls were also spotted. At carom billiards (in the US) it was also legal to drive a ball off the table and there were exhibition shots where you needed it to avoid a kiss.

The official rules of one pocket from onepocket.org say that a ball off the table is a foul. A note goes on to say that some people play it as not a foul.

Thanks. I thought it was a written rule going back to the 80's

tucson9ball
07-22-2016, 08:57 AM
The rule for 9 ball first appeared in the BCA rule book in 1993, but I think it was in effect prior to that at pro tournaments.

But the rule through the 1980s was that a ball onto the floor was not a foul -- it just spotted up. At that time illegally pocketed balls were also spotted. At carom billiards (in the US) it was also legal to drive a ball off the table and there were exhibition shots where you needed it to avoid a kiss.

The official rules of one pocket from onepocket.org say that a ball off the table is a foul. A note goes on to say that some people play it as not a foul.

Yep, this is how I remember it..... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Skippy27
07-22-2016, 09:06 AM
If I recall correctly in the APA it is:

If it is the 8 ball it is a loss of game.

Otherwise it is spotted after the shooter has completed his turn or if it is their ball and they are still shooting (haven't missed yet), it is spotted once they have shot all other balls of their category in.

I just looked up CSI rules (says draft so I dont know if they are in effect or not)
http://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/2014-2015_official_rules_of_csi.pdf

In 8 ball and 14.1 it says it is a foul, but does not mention the situation under 1 pocket.
2-10 Loss of Game
You lose of game if:
b. you jump the 8-ball off the table on any shot other than the break;

1-28 Jumped Balls
It is a foul if you cause any ball to be jumped off the table. (AR p.90)

ChicagoRJ
07-22-2016, 09:31 AM
If you knock an object ball off table it is a foul.

In 8-ball, the ball stays "down" and opponent has BIH.

You have to be penalized for knocking balls off the table, you get penalized for touching the cueball, not hitting a rail, hitting cueball into a pocket, touching object ball after your shot, and it would have come into play with the cb or other object balls, equipment infractions, too many coaches, sharking, etc. etc.

But, hitting the balls off the table is OK, with no penalty accessed ? Not bloody likely ;)

alphadog
07-22-2016, 09:56 AM
I was gambling at 1pkt in a room where Billy played. I purposely knocked a ball off the table a spotted 1 of my balls up behind it. Opponent said why are you spotting 2 balls? I replied thats a foul. He said no its not not,get your ball off the table so I can shoot the spotshot:sorry:
I questioned the rule,he said ask Billy. Billy said no foul;)
I asked are there any other rules from the stoneage you guys play by?:grin:

bazkook
07-22-2016, 11:14 AM
This topic has me re-thinking a situation I was faced with in a recent snooker tournament. I know snooker and pool have completely different rules but the logic I am trying to get at is essentially the same as making an opponent's hanging ball in one pocket. In a local snooker tournament, in which American snooker rules were in effect, I needed one snooker and the remaining 6 and 7 ball to win. The 6 ball was nearly hanging in the pocket and I had a funny angle which prevented me from making the 6 and following with the cue ball. I also did not have the space or angle to kick behind the ball without scratching.
I soft kicked the cue ball off the short rail into the 6 ball with the intention of nudging the 6 ball into the rail and freezing the 6 ball and cue ball together, leaving my opponent with no chance to make the 6 ball for now. Unfortunately for me, I hit the cue ball slightly too hard and the 6 ball double kissed into the pocket, effectively ending the game. I now realized that I could have tried to intentionally foul by knocking the 6 ball off the table to have it spotted up and only need 2 snookers. BTW I should mention that the rules for the tournament specified that the game is over if more than 2 snookers are needed after the red balls are gone; this prevents games from dragging out due to stubborn players refusing to quit in the face of a massive deficit.

PoolBum
07-22-2016, 11:31 AM
Does anyone know when OB knocked off the table became a foul?

Whenever the first gambling match took place and a guy knocked an OB off the table.

Skratch
07-22-2016, 11:53 AM
I was gambling at 1pkt in a room where Billy played. I purposely knocked a ball off the table a spotted 1 of my balls up behind it. Opponent said why are you spotting 2 balls? I replied thats a foul. He said no its not not,get your ball off the table so I can shoot the spotshot:sorry:
I questioned the rule,he said ask Billy. Billy said no foul;)
I asked are there any other rules from the stoneage you guys play by?:grin:

1P, I thought is was a foul too. Hmmmm. Whats the reasoning for it to not be a foul? You'd have to spot the ball to keep the count right and spot yours for the foul. You should be spotting 2 balls.

Anyone for the explanation on this 1P rule?

Add: Also, if its not a foul, you should be able to continue shooting, right?! If its not a foul, and you sunk a ball in your pocket, you should be able to spot the ball and continue your turn. LOL. Weird, right!?

Cardigan Kid
07-22-2016, 05:08 PM
So in 9-ball, the object ball that left the table stays down and it's BIH to the opponent?
I thought spotting of the ball was dropped a while ago in rotation games.

pt109
07-22-2016, 06:45 PM
This topic has me re-thinking a situation I was faced with in a recent snooker tournament. I know snooker and pool have completely different rules but the logic I am trying to get at is essentially the same as making an opponent's hanging ball in one pocket. In a local snooker tournament, in which American snooker rules were in effect, I needed one snooker and the remaining 6 and 7 ball to win. The 6 ball was nearly hanging in the pocket and I had a funny angle which prevented me from making the 6 and following with the cue ball. I also did not have the space or angle to kick behind the ball without scratching.
I soft kicked the cue ball off the short rail into the 6 ball with the intention of nudging the 6 ball into the rail and freezing the 6 ball and cue ball together, leaving my opponent with no chance to make the 6 ball for now. Unfortunately for me, I hit the cue ball slightly too hard and the 6 ball double kissed into the pocket, effectively ending the game. I now realized that I could have tried to intentionally foul by knocking the 6 ball off the table to have it spotted up and only need 2 snookers. BTW I should mention that the rules for the tournament specified that the game is over if more than 2 snookers are needed after the red balls are gone; this prevents games from dragging out due to stubborn players refusing to quit in the face of a massive deficit.

I played American snooker rules when ever I could over the years....
...I prefer them over World Rules.
But making the six-ball and jumping off the table doesn't help under these rules....
....because the six-ball doesn't re-spot.
All colors made in order, scratch or not, stay down unless there are still reds on the table.

pt109
07-22-2016, 06:48 PM
The rule for 9 ball first appeared in the BCA rule book in 1993, but I think it was in effect prior to that at pro tournaments.

But the rule through the 1980s was that a ball onto the floor was not a foul -- it just spotted up. At that time illegally pocketed balls were also spotted. At carom billiards (in the US) it was also legal to drive a ball off the table and there were exhibition shots where you needed it to avoid a kiss.

The official rules of one pocket from onepocket.org say that a ball off the table is a foul. A note goes on to say that some people play it as not a foul.

As late as '91, in pro tournaments, an object-ball off the table was still not a foul.....
....I thought it was a disgusting rule.

Bob Jewett
07-22-2016, 07:22 PM
I was gambling at 1pkt in a room where Billy played. I purposely knocked a ball off the table a spotted 1 of my balls up behind it. Opponent said why are you spotting 2 balls? I replied thats a foul. He said no its not not,get your ball off the table so I can shoot the spotshot:sorry:
I questioned the rule,he said ask Billy. Billy said no foul;)
I asked are there any other rules from the stoneage you guys play by?:grin:
Next time you have to say, "OK if we play by the rules on onepocket.org?" and have your web link ready.

Bob Jewett
07-22-2016, 07:26 PM
... Hmmmm. Whats the reasoning for it to not be a foul? ...
Because that was the way all pool games were played until about 1990. A ball onto the floor was not a foul. It just spotted back up. Tradition. The way things were.

pdcue
07-23-2016, 03:02 AM
1P, I thought is was a foul too. Hmmmm. Whats the reasoning for it to not be a foul? You'd have to spot the ball to keep the count right and spot yours for the foul. You should be spotting 2 balls.

Anyone for the explanation on this 1P rule?

Add: Also, if its not a foul, you should be able to continue shooting, right?! If its not a foul, and you sunk a ball in your pocket, you should be able to spot the ball and continue your turn. LOL. Weird, right!?

**well, I made this post before reading Mr Jewett's**
please forgive the restatement.


IMHO - The reasoning was tradition, or perhaps consistency. From the big bang onward,
knocking an Object ball off the table was not a foul. Knocking the Cue ball off, was.

Then came Ball-in-hand-anywhere-on-the-table and everything changed.

Also IMHO - in One Pocket, launching OBs buried in your opponent's pocket was such
a standard tactic that I never did agree with the change to make it a foul, and as has
been stated, many players still don't play it as a foul.

Dale(occasional One Pocket Aficionado)

seven_7days
07-23-2016, 07:43 AM
Any ball off the table will result in "dollar for the jukebox".

- Rules 1.17.1/2

PoolBum
07-23-2016, 09:11 AM
Any ball off the table will result in "dollar for the jukebox".

- Rules 1.17.1/2

It used to be a quarter! How times have changed.

7forlife
07-23-2016, 09:35 AM
Whenever the first gambling match took place and a guy knocked an OB off the table.

So does that mean that if it was a regular match then it wasn't a foul? It specifically had to wait until two guys were playing for something.

7forlife
07-23-2016, 09:53 AM
I always felt that respotting the ball only occurred based on the game. 14.1 needs to keep the ball count accurate so it get's spotted, 1P needs to keep the ball count so it needs to be spotted, anything after that would depend on who's ball left the table since one player would feel that he had the advantage by having the ball come back up. Now a loss of turn would simply be a "soft foul" in my opinion back then so no actual foul was called vs a player being awarded BIH (which i think is silly) for having an OB leave the table should the CB leave the table then fine.

Bob Jewett
07-23-2016, 10:17 AM
Whenever the first gambling match took place and a guy knocked an OB off the table.
Well, the earliest rule I've found that says a floored ball is a foul is this from 1807 (E. White, "A Practical Treatise on the Game of Billiards"):

429259

Much of that book is about gambling.

Bob Jewett
07-23-2016, 10:43 AM
Well, the earliest rule I've found that says a floored ball is a foul is this from 1807 ...
It turns out that Cotton in his "The Compleat Gamester" has this to say about the subject in 1674. Note that a single non-terminal "s" is printed as "f" in Englifh in his time.

429266

So the real question is: When did it become OK in the US to knock balls onto the floor? Presumably it was between 1807 and the 1960s.