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View Full Version : WHY is the US Open on the 7 Foot tables now?


MuchoBurrito
07-25-2016, 09:48 PM
Why is the US Open 8 and 10 ball on bar tables in 2015 and 2016?

I'm not saying I have anything against 7 foot tables necessarily, but the shot making component of the game in rotation games, is so far removed from what is demanded by a 9 foot table.

For rotation games at least (8 ball may be a different story), playing on a 7 foot table, for pros, seems to be cheapening the game IMHO.

PhilosopherKing
07-25-2016, 09:59 PM
Why is the US Open 8 and 10 ball on bar tables in 2015 and 2016?

I'm not saying I have anything against 7 foot tables necessarily, but the shot making component of the game in rotation games, is so far removed from what is demanded by a 9 foot table.

For rotation games at least (8 ball may be a different story), playing on a 7 foot table, for pros, seems to be cheapening the game IMHO.

League pool on baby tables pays the bills. Makes them think they're doing it just like the pros.

MuchoBurrito
07-25-2016, 10:06 PM
League pool on baby tables pays the bills. Makes them think they're doing it just like the pros.

It certainly does. Almost 100% of the league pool in my area is barbox (which I play in of course).

But to me, it's almost like the US Open in Golf being played on a 6000 yard club course, and watching everybody go -30 over 4 rounds. Yeah that's impressive, no I can't do that, but they're pro's. They SHOULD be subjected to a more difficult standard. I want to see them pull off shots at distances that I just can't hope to duplicate.

When I watch pro's play on a 7 foot table, and nobody misses a pot all match, what's the point?

9Ballr
07-25-2016, 10:17 PM
2 feet is a huge difference on 7 vs 9 foot tables when it comes to long distance shots and of course the break.
I which they hadn't played this important tournament on 7 footers.
Just not the same. Kinda lame actually....just my opinion.

PhilosopherKing
07-25-2016, 10:17 PM
It certainly does. Almost 100% of the league pool in my area is barbox (which I play in of course).

But to me, it's almost like the US Open in Golf being played on a 6000 yard club course, and watching everybody go -30 over 4 rounds. Yeah that's impressive, no I can't do that, but they're pro's. They SHOULD be subjected to a more difficult standard. I want to see them pull off shots at distances that I just can't hope to duplicate.

When I watch pro's play on a 7 foot table, and nobody misses a pot all match, what's the point?

For your entertainment. The pros are dancing bears.

arps
07-25-2016, 11:16 PM
in Pi, we call them "junior tables". :)

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 12:39 AM
For me, it's not even worth watching. Why not just play on one of these and get it over with?

http://www.toysrus.co.uk/products/images/large/0030721_CF0001.jpg

Honestly, it's a little embarrassing for American pool, IMHO.

westcoast
07-26-2016, 12:57 AM
Some of the outs in 8 ball were impressive even on the 7 footer. It is very interesting to see how the pros break out trouble balls. However I agree that the 10 ball should be played on a 9 footer.


On a side note, are diamond bar tables slightly smaller than valley bar tables? It seems like they are by a few inches

one stroke
07-26-2016, 03:46 AM
Not only is it a joke to call it the U.S. Open with out adding barbox to the title , but the field size was relative to the table size missing many top players


1

Lesh
07-26-2016, 04:41 AM
I do not approve.

Don't they have a BAR TABLE Nationals event?

I think I remember hearing about something like that. I wasn't interested and tried to forget it immediately..... but yeah, I think there is or was such a thing.

I think championship series for any GAME in pocket billiards should be at a higher level. 9 foot Gold Crowns trimmed up to pro standards. Oh wait, it depends on what standards we are talking about since the US has a couple dozen standards because we have 12 million chiefs and no Indians in Cue Sports... everyone knows best.

I think there should be a giant Summit of all the pool talent, whomever can wheel their decrepit butts into the appointed edifice to vote on the many facets of what the US standard will be. Then it will be set in stone and that's all folks. Any league or event that wants to be sanctioned by any governing body in the US will have to abide by scripture.

Anyone laying odds on anything like this happening in this century?

Lesh

Straightpool_99
07-26-2016, 04:50 AM
The answer to the OP's question was given in another thread. Basically they couldn't make it financially viable with 9 footers.

I guess I have been too negative towards the 7 foot tournaments. In the US at the moment, most players seem to be league barbox players, so it makes sense to have tournaments on them. I definitely think "barbox" should be in the title, though.

Personally I don't think it really counts as pool. It is less skilled, less interesting to watch and over all an inferior game to 9 foot tables. I also believe it will over time diminish the skill of US players compared to the rest of the world. Luckily the chances of the 7 foot trend has of being exported around the world are very slim indeed. So as a foreigner, it's not the end of the world for me if you ruin your own pool scene. It does make me sad as a pool purist and lover of watching high quality pool, but it doesn't impact my own playing in the least. I and others with me in Europe and Asia, will continue to enjoy the large table game and you Americans can continue to enjoy your little tables. Then, when your ass gets kicked in international competition, you can continue to blame your loss on team spirit (or lack of it) or other such nonsense.

You are still reaping benefits from having players that grew up on full scale tables. The next generation of players won't have had that luxury. Talented individuals will still emerge, but they'll be fighting an uphill battle against the Pinoys, the Chineese and to a lesser extent Europeans (as the game is declining in popularity here as well).

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 06:14 AM
The answer to the OP's question was given in another thread. Basically they couldn't make it financially viable with 9 footers.

I'd rather they just skip it before the last remaining real pool halls get the bright idea to convert to "Regulation US Open" size tables. This is terrible for the sport and worse than nothing, in my opinion. It's starting to make me wonder if this isn't exactly what Diamond would love to see happen. It's enough to make me miss Gandy.

And just to be clear, I've got nothing against small tables. They're fun to fart around on in a bar, having a couple of drinks with your buddies, but it's like comparing Pitch&Putt to a real golf course. Pitch & Putt can be fun, but it's hardly the same game.

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 06:39 AM
I don't have an answer to the OP on the switch, but to the ensuing posts about pros on a 7' table, especially these Diamonds with pro cut pocket... You guys apparently missed some of the best pool this week.

Anyone who continues to say how much a joke it is for pool to be played on 7' tables for pros... The pros seemed to enjoy the challenge. The challenge for the extra ball in 10-ball was real. And even more if the table is smaller, the stats shown by At Large doesn't show that big of a difference, not so much that it was a break and run fest.

Again, did you guys even watch any of this week? It was simply amazing pool.


Freddie

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 06:53 AM
I don't have an answer to the OP on the switch, but to the ensuing posts about pros on a 7' table, especially these Diamonds with pro cut pocket... You guys apparently missed some of the best pool this week.

Anyone who continues to say how much a joke it is for pool to be played on 7' tables for pros... The pros seemed to enjoy the challenge. The challenge for the extra ball in 10-ball was real. And even more if the table is smaller, the stats shown by At Large doesn't show that big of a difference, not so much that it was a break and run fest.

Again, did you guys even watch any of this week? It was simply amazing pool.


Freddie

It's not just about difficulty level. Even if it's MORE difficult wouldn't really matter. The point is that it's a completely different game and belongs in it's own barbox category. If you're going to call something "US Open", it should be played on similar equipment to all the other US Opens. Why not call it the US Barbox Open?

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 06:57 AM
It's not just about difficulty level. Even if it's MORE difficult wouldn't really matter. The point is that it's a completely different game and belongs in it's own barbox category. If you're going to call something "US Open", it should be played on similar equipment to all the other US Opens.

I don't disagree with this. But clearly, that's not the only point after the OP's post, as I has said.

King T
07-26-2016, 07:02 AM
I don't have an answer to the OP on the switch, but to the ensuing posts about pros on a 7' table, especially these Diamonds with pro cut pocket... You guys apparently missed some of the best pool this week.

Anyone who continues to say how much a joke it is for pool to be played on 7' tables for pros... The pros seemed to enjoy the challenge. The challenge for the extra ball in 10-ball was real. And even more if the table is smaller, the stats shown by At Large doesn't show that big of a difference, not so much that it was a break and run fest.

Again, did you guys even watch any of this week? It was simply amazing pool.


Freddie I don't think most of the people who complain really understand the game. Shane and Rodney are the two best players in the USA on any table so it doesn't matter what they paly on their going to win.

There are number of other good players that run out on any table, Josh Roberts plays any game on any table tournament or cash, Sky aint duck'n nobody and plays on all tables and the list goes on and on. Big table small table these guys can play.

Neil
07-26-2016, 07:04 AM
Couldn't help but get a chuckle out of this thread. Can't help but wonder if one would have heard the same comments when the pros went from the "real" 10' tables down to those toy 9' tables a little over half a century ago if they would have had the internet back then. :D

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 07:08 AM
I don't think most of the people who complain really understand the game. Shane and Rodney are the two best players in the USA on any table so it doesn't matter what they paly on their going to win.

There are number of other good players that run out on any table, Josh Roberts plays any game on any table tournament or cash, Sky aint duck'n nobody and plays on all tables and the list goes on and on. Big table small table these guys can play.

Thorsten, I suppose, represented Europe this week. He said "he loved playing on these 7' Diamond tables."

Of course, he won the 10-ball event last year. But nonetheless, if a European former World 14.1 and 9-ball champion loves playing them, why do AZB posters give these amazing 7' Diamond Pro Ams with pro cut pockets such a bad rap?

Freddie

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 07:10 AM
Couldn't help but get a chuckle out of this thread. Can't help but wonder if one would have heard the same comments when the pros went from the "real" 10' tables down to those toy 9' tables a little over half a century ago if they would have had the internet back then. :D

Same people, different era. Griping is as griping does.

Don't you know that pool only existed since about 1990?

Freddie <~~~ SSDD

BRussell
07-26-2016, 07:13 AM
On a side note, are diamond bar tables slightly smaller than valley bar tables? It seems like they are by a few inchesI don't think so. The playing surface of the Diamond 7-footers is 80". I believe the most common Valleys are either the same or smaller; I know 78" is another common 7-foot size. I don't think any of the Valleys are larger than 80".

StuartTKelley
07-26-2016, 07:18 AM
League pool on baby tables pays the bills. Makes them think they're doing it just like the pros.

That is not entirely true in my opinion. I play on Diamond bar boxes all the time and at no time do I have any illusions that I am doing anything like a pro. Pro's can shoot just as well as on a 9 as they can on a 7. I get my break and runs but I don't string them together 7 and 8 in a row like a pro..until I do that I understand the difference! Believe me.

lfigueroa
07-26-2016, 07:33 AM
Thorsten, I suppose, represented Europe this week. He said "he loved playing on these 7' Diamond tables."

Of course, he won the 10-ball event last year. But nonetheless, if a European former World 14.1 and 9-ball champion loves playing them, why do AZB posters give these amazing 7' Diamond Pro Ams with pro cut pockets such a bad rap?

Freddie


I think a lot of people don't care whether a tournament is 7' or 9'. They can pick and choose whether they want to play, support, watch. (I suppose if CSI's logic were to hold true we could expect the DCC to go to 7' tables.)

I believe the central issue is what the events are called and in this case the words "Bar Table" should be inserted right after "U.S Open." Even Thorsten made that distinction in his interview after winning the 10ball event. Everything is just spin and not very good spin at that.

Lou Figueroa

MuchoBurrito
07-26-2016, 07:43 AM
The answer to the OP's question was given in another thread. Basically they couldn't make it financially viable with 9 footers.

That's interesting, 9 footers are too expensive to lease/transport/etc?

That's a terrible shame.

Of course the pro's played amazing pool this last week on the bar tables, they're the best in the world, I would expect stellar pool. The 9 foot tables however really showcase the superior shot making ability the pros have though.

I can't remember ever seeing a ball potted on a bar table and thinking to myself "wow what a shot!".

I think it would be a shame if North American pool turn into barbox pool because general interest in pool wasn't sufficient to support 9 foot tables.

BRussell
07-26-2016, 07:47 AM
I don't think most of the people who complain really understand the game. Shane and Rodney are the two best players in the USA on any table so it doesn't matter what they paly on their going to win.

There are number of other good players that run out on any table, Josh Roberts plays any game on any table tournament or cash, Sky aint duck'n nobody and plays on all tables and the list goes on and on. Big table small table these guys can play.

There's no doubt that the best players will still be at the top of the list (although I'm not sure Rory Hendrickson would be in the finals of the US Open 9-ball on 9-foot tables).

What bothers me is that US pool is in the toilet, and this is just another sign that it's not crawling out any time soon.

I don't think CSI has any responsibility to US pool other than doing what their customers, i.e., the league players, want, and the league players almost all play on 7-footers. But let's be real, we know why leagues play on 7-footers: For "practical" reasons. They're cheaper, you can fit more into a room, they're easier so games go quicker and less-skilled players have more fun on them.

So 9' pool rooms close, bars with small tables take over, people get used to small tables, CSI uses small tables for its league events, why put in a new set of bigger tables for the Open events when they've got tons of small tables already there?, pros play more and more on small tables, new and young players who might become pros rarely play on big tables, and pretty soon Americans are about as comfortable on 9-foot tables as they are on snooker tables. That sucks. It's not CSI's fault, but it still sucks.

Johnnyt
07-26-2016, 07:47 AM
Looks like 7' tables are keeping a lot of the top players from around the world away. This will hurt the purses for awhile, but if that's what most American tournaments are played on, they will have to come for the money=purses go back up. Johnnyt

MuchoBurrito
07-26-2016, 07:56 AM
Looks like 7' tables are keeping a lot of the top players from around the world away. This will hurt the purses for awhile, but if that's what most American tournaments are played on, they will have to come for the money=purses go back up. Johnnyt

Yes when you look at the registrants for this year's US Open, there were very few European and virtually no Filipino names to be found. Now that I take a closer look at it, it kind of seemed like a weak field when you consider just how prestigious the US Open title is supposed to be.

Also, giving big Mosconi cup points to someone because they placed well in a bar table 8 ball event??? That seems kind of inappropriate.

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 07:57 AM
I think a lot of people don't care whether a tournament is 7' or 9'. They can pick and choose whether they want to play, support, watch. (I suppose if CSI's logic were to hold true we could expect the DCC to go to 7' tables.)

I believe the central issue is what the events are called and in this case the words "Bar Table" should be inserted right after "U.S Open." Even Thorsten made that distinction in his interview after winning the 10ball event. Everything is just spin and not very good spin at that.

Lou Figueroa
There's no question that some of these players believe that 7' pool table okay isn't "real pool." That's what I'm addressing.

To the title, I agree that something should be in there like US Open 7'ft 10-ball Championship. These Diamonds are entirely too good and challenging to be under the "barbox" umbrella.

I'm quite sure Thorsten agrees with you and me that a "US Open" title by itself should be on a bigger table. Maybe Irving Crane believed that the US Open 14.1 should have had a special "on 9' tables" clarifier when the switch from 10' to 9' tables occurred.

Freddie <~~~ moving forward

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 08:00 AM
Looks like 7' tables are keeping a lot of the top players from around the world away. This will hurt the purses for awhile, but if that's what most American tournaments are played on, they will have to come for the money=purses go back up. Johnnyt

Oh, please, let's not make up silly conclusions. The world stayed away because the Qatar event being by so close. Players staying away had nothing to do with the smaller table. Same things happen every tournament if there's a scheduling conflict.

westcoast
07-26-2016, 08:04 AM
Looks like 7' tables are keeping a lot of the top players from around the world away. This will hurt the purses for awhile, but if that's what most American tournaments are played on, they will have to come for the money=purses go back up. Johnnyt

I think some of them stayed way because of the world 9 ball event in Qatar coming up. Appleton for example said he would have played if not for that- he thought shooting on 7 footer so close to the world 9 ball would be bad for his game.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 08:11 AM
Maybe Irving Crane believed that the US Open 14.1 should have had a special "on 9' tables" clarifier when the switch from 10' to 9' tables occurred.

Freddie <~~~ moving forward

There's a difference between comparing the outfield wall at different ballparks, vs comparing a major league ballpark to a school yard. Didn't one match go without even one missed pot? 10' to 9' tables don't completely change the game, and I might argue that even 8' tables aren't so bad, though it's borderline. 7' tables are completely different. Just look at the areas of the table:

10' - 50sq"
9' - 40sq"
7' - 24.5sq"

It's just over 1/2 the playing surface of a 9' and not even close to the difference between a 10' and 9' table. That's a pretty drastic reduction in actually playing surface.

slide13
07-26-2016, 08:17 AM
I actually enjoy watching bar table 8-ball, the precise cue ball movement and traffic make it interesting to me. I think the game is ideally suited for the bar table and 8-ball on a big table may be an easier game for the pros.

I don't love rotation on the small table. I agree that if this is supposed to be a premier US tournament then they should be using big tables for the rotation games at least. I have no problem with bar table tournaments, but having the US Open on 7' tables is a bit of a joke.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 08:20 AM
What would make it a lot more interesting is if the balls and pockets were also 1/2 size, and I'm 100% serious about that. I'd enjoy watching that and playing that, and it would respect the big difference in table playing area. It would be a different game, and it is anyway, so why not just make it a different game and be done with it?

Texas Carom Club
07-26-2016, 08:23 AM
For me, it's not even worth watching. Why not just play on one of these and get it over with?

http://www.toysrus.co.uk/products/images/large/0030721_CF0001.jpg

Honestly, it's a little embarrassing for American pool, IMHO.

agree 100 percent, tables should be getting bigger for pros and smaller for casuals

Johnnyt
07-26-2016, 08:28 AM
I have custom Ridgeback rails for my Valley that make ALL 6 pockets 4". You need a good angle on position most of the time. Johnnyt

gxman
07-26-2016, 08:29 AM
U.S open 8b and 10b seems to be the same as USBTC. Same promoters, just longer than race to 5 with the USBTC.

Yeah I cant wait to see Busty vs Rodney race to 21 on a bar table. =(

GideonF
07-26-2016, 08:30 AM
Oh, please, let's not make up silly conclusions. The world stayed away because the Qatar event being by so close. Players staying away had nothing to do with the smaller table. Same things happen every tournament if there's a scheduling conflict.

I think that scheduling conflicts are largely to blame. Most the young gun Pinoys (and other ones who didn't get the invitation to Stage 2) are playing in the qualifying events in Qatar. The Europeans were all playing in the UK Open 9b event, which had free entry and was worth Euro Mosconi Cup points.

That said, there were a few pros who seem to have skipped the event because they wanted to prepare for the World 9b by playing on 9' tables. Daz said as much on FB and has been practicing at home.

To return to the original question, the switch was made because (a) CSI owns the rights to the names; (b) it is apparently considerably more expensive to stage an event like this on 9' tables; and (c) CSI gets considerably better PPV numbers from 7' events. It may also be the case that CSI likes being able to have their league players in Vegas see the pros playing on the same equipment the league plays on. None of this is a criticism - CSI runs a business and no one else is putting up the money to run these events on 9' tables.

I unfortunately didn't see the 10b, but I did watch almost all of the 8b.

When the balls broke wide and didn't cluster, it was easy run outs - except that even the top pros do still miss occasionally (e.g., both Thorsten and Busty missed fairly easy shots in the side right at the end of their respective matches. Thorsten survived - Busty's miss was at hill-hill and he lost to SVB, who would have been eliminated).

When the balls did cluster, it was fascinating to watch the pros navigate tables that would normally result in multiple innings and safeties. I strongly recommend anyone who plays any 8b on 7' tables watch some of these matches - it redefines how bar table 8b can be played, IMHO - although some of the shots and patterns they play can only be played when you are pro speed.

All of that said, I personally would like to see these events on 9' tables, but that doesn't mean that the events are not worth watching.

9Ballz
07-26-2016, 08:35 AM
Two distinct games. Imho it should be US Open 10,9 and 8 ball on 9 footers.
US Open Bar Box 10,9 and 8 on 7 footers. Indoor and outdoor football are the
same right? No they must be played a little differently due to the size of the field.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 08:47 AM
re: pros playing
Pros are pros. This is how they make their living, so they play wherever and on whatever they need to, whether they like it or not. I'm sure there are some that stayed away because of the equipment, but I doubt most care. They want to win. Hell, I've never turned down a game just because of the equipment and I enjoy playing on whatever I can get, but it's sorta' not the point.

When I was a kid, and we still had lots of nice pool halls around, pool on TV, etc, I always thought it would be fun to do a "Basement Series". Setup some crappy, 7' tables, each one with odd idiosyncrasies, put some walls too close to the table, maybe a couple of posts, house cues only, etc etc, and let them battle it out. The really adaptable guys would find a way to use the equipment to their advantage, hook people in areas where they can't even make a proper stroke, and things like that. It would be fun.

This isn't quite what I had in mind, though.

MuchoBurrito
07-26-2016, 08:57 AM
I think some of them stayed way because of the world 9 ball event in Qatar coming up. Appleton for example said he would have played if not for that- he thought shooting on 7 footer so close to the world 9 ball would be bad for his game.

I can understand that for many players it was a simple scheduling conflict, with the event in Qatar being more important to them.

However, I can also see why many players wouldn't want to spend the week before the world 9 ball playing on a bar table. I wouldn't play a week on a bar table before a tournament on a 9 footer.

one stroke
07-26-2016, 09:06 AM
Oh, please, let's not make up silly conclusions. The world stayed away because the Qatar event being by so close. Players staying away had nothing to do with the smaller table. Same things happen every tournament if there's a scheduling conflict.

It's already been said by Darren a bar box event so close to a world event on big tables makes it to hard to be in top form switching table size ,, Iv heard several pro's say the exact something ,

1

vjmehra
07-26-2016, 09:12 AM
What would make it a lot more interesting is if the balls and pockets were also 1/2 size, and I'm 100% serious about that. I'd enjoy watching that and playing that, and it would respect the big difference in table playing area. It would be a different game, and it is anyway, so why not just make it a different game and be done with it?

That's essentially English Pool which seems to be growing in popularity over here as 9-Ball declines :-(

The IPA tour appears to have a large number of events on these days and sponsorship from a leading UK bookie!

For what it's worth as far as I'm aware English Pool is streamed online (as is the GB9 tour) but there is none shown on to, unlike 9-Ball which is shown on Sky.

jasonlaus
07-26-2016, 09:48 AM
There's a difference between comparing the outfield wall at different ballparks, vs comparing a major league ballpark to a school yard. Didn't one match go without even one missed pot? 10' to 9' tables don't completely change the game, and I might argue that even 8' tables aren't so bad, though it's borderline. 7' tables are completely different. Just look at the areas of the table:

10' - 50sq"
9' - 40sq"
7' - 24.5sq"

It's just over 1/2 the playing surface of a 9' and not even close to the difference between a 10' and 9' table. That's a pretty drastic reduction in actually playing surface.

I have a 10' table and there is a big difference between it and a 9' - alot of the strong players fall of quite a bit on the 10'er. Can't even imagine how bad a casual player would be on a 10'.
Don't fool yourself by thinking it's close
Jason

Nick B
07-26-2016, 09:50 AM
Let's just get one thing straight. Pro Cut refers to the dimension on the throat of the pocket. Diamond BB tables have shorter shelves and thus play easier. Go measure.


Regards

Nick B

Get_A_Grip
07-26-2016, 10:06 AM
I actually don't mind the pros playing on 7-foot tables. It is still exciting to watch, and in fact, you rarely see a safety being played -- it's all offense. (I think that I heard the commentators say that they recall seeing only 2 safeties the entire tournament).

Although, I also agree that it probably wouldn't hurt to call it the, "US Barbox Open". Because in my mind, for a large and prestigious tournament, the assumption by most would be that it is played on 9-foot tables.

Darren Appleton also did not play in it specifically because he thought that it would not be good practice to play on 7-foot tables before some of the upcoming 9-foot tournaments that he planned to play in. There is probably some validity to this, although, it's also obvious that many pros can adjust quickly between table sizes.

King T
07-26-2016, 10:40 AM
There's no doubt that the best players will still be at the top of the list (although I'm not sure Rory Hendrickson would be in the finals of the US Open 9-ball on 9-foot tables).

What bothers me is that US pool is in the toilet, and this is just another sign that it's not crawling out any time soon.

I don't think CSI has any responsibility to US pool other than doing what their customers, i.e., the league players, want, and the league players almost all play on 7-footers. But let's be real, we know why leagues play on 7-footers: For "practical" reasons. They're cheaper, you can fit more into a room, they're easier so games go quicker and less-skilled players have more fun on them.

So 9' pool rooms close, bars with small tables take over, people get used to small tables, CSI uses small tables for its league events, why put in a new set of bigger tables for the Open events when they've got tons of small tables already there?, pros play more and more on small tables, new and young players who might become pros rarely play on big tables, and pretty soon Americans are about as comfortable on 9-foot tables as they are on snooker tables. That sucks. It's not CSI's fault, but it still sucks.

I don't disagree, but here in Texas there is more land and available space than anywhere in the country and you cant find 9' tables at anyplace in large numbers. In Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin the Pool halls are dominated by 8' and 7' tables and this is not a new situation, its been that way for many years.

Most of the tournaments are on 8' tables and the rest are on 7' its hard to get away from the facts.

And the American players are all playing One Pocket and that also takes away from the skill set for rotation, I LOVE One Pocket, but it aint helping the 9 Ball or 10 Ball player win on the world scene.

Cornerman
07-26-2016, 12:13 PM
It's already been said by Darren a bar box event so close to a world event on big tables makes it to hard to be in top form switching table size ,, Iv heard several pro's say the exact something ,

1

I think I said the same thing, if it wasn't clear. The schedule didn't allow Darren to play on a small table just before the World tourney. He didn't just stay away due to the size. He grew up on small tables.

AtLarge
07-26-2016, 01:03 PM
in Pi, we call them "junior tables". :)

And I've heard you don't have any of them in the PI, right?

... Anyone who continues to say how much a joke it is for pool to be played on 7' tables for pros...

For 8-Ball, at least, 9-footers and 7-footers produce about the same stats. Here are the percentages for B&R's and for games ending in one inning:
• 2016 US Open -- 53%, 86%
• 2015 US Open -- 52%, 87%
• 2014 Accu-Stats Make It Happen (9-footers) -- 50%, 85%
• 2014 CSI Invitational (9-footers) -- 54%, 88%

Couldn't help but get a chuckle out of this thread. Can't help but wonder if one would have heard the same comments when the pros went from the "real" 10' tables down to those toy 9' tables a little over half a century ago if they would have had the internet back then. :D

Maybe. The reduction in playing surface is 20% going from a 10-footer to a 9-footer, and 36% going from a 9-footer to a Diamond 7-footer.

... I believe the central issue is what the events are called and in this case the words "Bar Table" should be inserted right after "U.S Open." ...

How about "Smallfoot" {to go with "Bigfoot" for 10-footers)? :)

... I can't remember ever seeing a ball potted on a bar table and thinking to myself "wow what a shot!". ...

Now, that's a bit extreme. [I saw lots of "wow" shots.]

There's no doubt that the best players will still be at the top of the list (although I'm not sure Rory Hendrickson would be in the finals of the US Open 9-ball on 9-foot tables). ...

On 9-footers, what's the likelihood that Hendrickson and Bowman would ever finish ahead of all of these: Pagulayan, Bustamante, Morris, Dominguez, Hohmann, Bergman, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, Morra, and Klatt?

[Repeated, from another thread today]

I actually don't mind the pros playing on 7-foot tables. It is still exciting to watch, and in fact, you rarely see a safety being played -- it's all offense. (I think that I heard the commentators say that they recall seeing only 2 safeties the entire tournament). ...

The number of streamed games involving one or more safeties was 9 -- 4.6% of the 197 games. This was way up from last year, when the number was 5 -- 2.1% of the 233 games.:)

Proofsc
07-26-2016, 01:07 PM
What people fail to realize is that the BCA National Championships was running concurrently with these opens. Like most of you mentioned it's all about bar table leagues and these events are made bar table so Amatuers can play in the events and play with pros on something they are comfortable with. Almost every tournament is 9ft and while I don't like rotation on 7ft 8 ball can be tough, if you get out of line a hair it changes everything since you have a lot less room than a 9ft. Also with the armature events going on as well, they like to see break and runs over safety battles that occur on the big tables.

AtLarge
07-26-2016, 01:26 PM
... Also with the armature events going on as well, they like to see break and runs over safety battles that occur on the big tables.

For top pros playing 8-Ball, run-outs are just about as plentiful and safeties just about as rare on 9-footers as on 7-footers.

justadub
07-26-2016, 01:53 PM
What people fail to realize is that the BCA National Championships was running concurrently with these opens. Like most of you mentioned it's all about bar table leagues and these events are made bar table so Amatuers can play in the events and play with pros on something they are comfortable with. Almost every tournament is 9ft and while I don't like rotation on 7ft 8 ball can be tough, if you get out of line a hair it changes everything since you have a lot less room than a 9ft. Also with the armature events going on as well, they like to see break and runs over safety battles that occur on the big tables.

Remember what Mark Griffin said about the expense.... "The table transportation and light hanging costs far exceed $1,000 per table." (For 9-footers)

They are already gonna have the 7-footers there for the amateur nationals. By utilizing this, he is able to add far more in prize money than he would be able to were he to have to pony up $1000 per 9-foot table.

Would I rather the US Opens be played on 9-footers, of course. I just think folks forget the costs associated with running these big tourneys. I'm guessing if the pro's had a choice between playing on 7-footers for the current prize money or 9-footers for drastically reduced prize money, they'd choose 7-footers. I could be wrong, I often am....I'm married.

Str8PoolPlayer
07-26-2016, 01:54 PM
Regardless of reasons given, you can rest assured. It's All About the Money.

Proofsc
07-26-2016, 01:58 PM
Remember what Mark Griffin said about the expense.... "The table transportation and light hanging costs far exceed $1,000 per table." (For 9-footers)

They are already gonna have the 7-footers there for the amateur nationals. By utilizing this, he is able to add far more in prize money than he would be able to were he to have to pony up $1000 per 9-foot table.

Would I rather the US Opens be played on 9-footers, of course. I just think folks forget the costs associated with running these big tourneys. I'm guessing if the pro's had a choice between playing on 7-footers for the current prize money or 9-footers for drastically reduced prize money, they'd choose 7-footers. I could be wrong, I often am....I'm married.



I do remember that, I wrote about it in another post and just didn't feel like repeating myself.

Jeff Rosen
07-26-2016, 02:43 PM
Although I've been playing with family, friends, and girls I dated since my dad first brought me to a pool room in the early 60's, I've only been serious in leagues and tournaments for 3 years now. I've only played on 9 footers. I've even been in two APA leagues in different counties on 9 footers and the only times I played on bar boxes was in the APA tri cup and the Super Billiard Expo in PA. I basically only play 9 Ball and 14.1.
I recently joined a Friday night APA bar league. I thought as a 9 foot player I'd kill them. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I first played a girl SL#3. She slammed the cue on every shot and although never got her object ball in she seemed to continuously slop a ball. Since APA 9 Ball goes by points unlike REAL 9 Ball she killed me. I didn't see it coming. Also on a barbox you don't even have to do safeties. Half the time you're blocked without even trying!!
I don't begrudge anyone who likes bar tables but to me unless it's a 9 footer it's not pool. I've even requested the 10 footer at Steinway when they had it.

saint1
07-26-2016, 03:17 PM
Regardless of reasons given, you can rest assured. It's All About the Money.


Yes is it is! In my opinion, to set up a couple of 9 foot tables and hang the lights VS a few 7 foot tables cannot be any different? And to suggest that by using these 7 foot tables will generate more interest by the average league player(because that's what they use) and therefore equate to more entrants is ridiculous. The caliber of a non pro player most likely to play in these open events already plays on 9 foot tables. In my area you would have a hard time finding a 7 foot table in league play. They are all 8 foot and 9 foot tables. Also were the total entrants for the 2 open events greatly reduced as well as the whole event? I liked playing the national event for many years but will probably be gone before to long. Sad to say it.

GideonF
07-26-2016, 03:33 PM
Yes is it is! In my opinion, to set up a couple of 9 foot tables and hang the lights VS a few 7 foot tables cannot be any different? And to suggest that by using these 7 foot tables will generate more interest by the average league player(because that's what they use) and therefore equate to more entrants is ridiculous. The caliber of a non pro player most likely to play in these open events already plays on 9 foot tables. In my area you would have a hard time finding a 7 foot table in league play. They are all 8 foot and 9 foot tables. Also were the total entrants for the 2 open events greatly reduced as well as the whole event? I liked playing the national event for many years but will probably be gone before to long. Sad to say it.

Your post is, first of all, contradictory. You are agreeing with someone saying it is "all about the money" but then discount the things that go into the money equation!

Second, and more importantly, as to the substance (a) Mark has previously explained why it is more expensive to use 9' tables - my recollection is that it is largely due to shipping costs (it is cheaper to ship 7' tables because you can get a lot more of them in a truck or container); and (b) Mark has explained that 7' events generate significantly more PPV buys - not amateur entrants into the pro events.

I have no reason to doubt Mark on either of these statements. And, as I and other have said, he's the promoter - he gets to make the choices. You (and others) are free to not watch his events, and even I suppose to complain about them, but neither is going to magically create more 9' events.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 03:47 PM
Gideon, I think the only real gripe is not putting "Barbox" somewhere in the title. Obviously it's not done because it takes prestige away from the event...which says it all right there. There's no reason not to proudly state it and differentiate it from traditional Opens, because it's become different.

saint1
07-26-2016, 03:53 PM
Well your free to believe whatever you wish. I don't remember reading any explanation of why they cost more, just that they do? Shipping from where? Its in Vegas, CSI is located down the road? Are they stored in Florida?

BRussell
07-26-2016, 04:02 PM
Gideon, I think the only real gripe is not putting "Barbox" somewhere in the title. Obviously it's not done because it takes prestige away from the event...which says it all right there. There's no reason not to proudly state it and differentiate it from traditional Opens, because it's become different.

I don't care what they call it. I'm ticked off that American pool is taking the cheap and easy way out, and I'm worried that it's going to do long-term damage to Americans' ability to play pool on an international stage.

krelldog
07-26-2016, 04:15 PM
The same guy that won the 8 ball and 10 ball on bar tables....probably would of won on 9 footers anyway. BTW....I hate bar tables.

9Ballr
07-26-2016, 04:24 PM
On a 7 footer I can do a lot more of the stuff I wish I could do on a 9 footer.
Draws, breaks, follows, position control is FOR ME much much easier on a 7 footer.
That being said they ALL were playing on 7 footers so the field is level....
BUT watching it takes the 90% of the excitement out of it.....again......for me and
I'm not going to watch this. Nor would I pay to go to the competition.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 04:26 PM
I don't care what they call it. I'm ticked off that American pool is taking the cheap and easy way out, and I'm worried that it's going to do long-term damage to Americans' ability to play pool on an international stage.

Too late for that, no? Always makes me wonder what people mean when they say that the leagues are keeping pool alive. They are? The leagues are keeping the leagues alive. Americans don't tend to value activities like this anymore, and maybe we never really did. Too much thinking involved? Not enough action? No special effects? Pokemons not hiding in the pockets? People would just as soon make fun of it than try it. Same with bowling, chess, darts, board games etc...

Not saying we suck or anything like that, but I've been many other places where there's much greater apprecation for things like this, not because it makes money but because it's simply fun and it's ok not to bury your head your phone for a couple of hours here and there.

chevybob20
07-26-2016, 04:30 PM
Let's just get one thing straight. Pro Cut refers to the dimension on the throat of the pocket. Diamond BB tables have shorter shelves and thus play easier. Go measure.


Regards

Nick B

Good idea Nick.

Would someone please get the measurements of a 7' Diamond and post them in the Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness" thread?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=324408

I measured one a long time ago and I remember the shelf was about the same depth as an Olhausen. But I do have a bad memory.

I prefer 9' table tournaments. But if it meant 7' tables or nothing then I'll take 7' tables.

Str8PoolPlayer
07-26-2016, 04:46 PM
I prefer 9' table tournaments. But if it meant 7' tables or nothing then I'll take 7' tables.

As long as WE are willing to "accept" playing Tournaments on 7ft. Tables,
the 9ft & 10ft Tables will rarely, if ever, be seen. It's ALL About the Money.

chevybob20
07-26-2016, 04:58 PM
As long as WE are willing to "accept" playing Tournaments on 7ft. Tables,
the 9ft & 10ft Tables will rarely, if ever, be seen. It's ALL About the Money.

It always will be about the money. It's a business. If a business can't make money it either makes changes or it folds (unless you're a bank doling cash out to elected officials. But let's leave that for NPR :thumbup: ). This game will turn around only if someone figures out how to make money from it.

I would be very disappointed if I couldn't watch pros play at all and all that was left was local pool.

Positively Ralf
07-26-2016, 05:24 PM
I asked before but noone gave an answer, if they are going to play on bar tables, why not just tighten the pockets to sizes like the chinese 8 ball table ones? Aren't those the same pocket sizes I keep seeing people playing in England and they play on bar tables.

Rico
07-26-2016, 05:27 PM
If its such a huge difference why couldn't all those pros beat Dave Matlock on the barbox.A tight bar table or 5in.pocketed 9ft. Pinehurst#2 was one of the shortest courses the PGA held a major even par was a good score.Hold a tourn. on the same day on 9ft. and barbox and 50,000 on the 9ft and 100,000 on 7 ft. see where they play.

one stroke
07-26-2016, 05:33 PM
Your post is, first of all, contradictory. You are agreeing with someone saying it is "all about the money" but then discount the things that go into the money equation!

Second, and more importantly, as to the substance (a) Mark has previously explained why it is more expensive to use 9' tables - my recollection is that it is largely due to shipping costs (it is cheaper to ship 7' tables because you can get a lot more of them in a truck or container); and (b) Mark has explained that 7' events generate significantly more PPV buys - not amateur entrants into the pro events.

I have no reason to doubt Mark on either of these statements. And, as I and other have said, he's the promoter - he gets to make the choices. You (and others) are free to not watch his events, and even I suppose to complain about them, but neither is going to magically create more 9' events.

How many Bar Boxes are there in the amature events and how many are in the pro event
of corse it's more for 9s are more but how many do you need for these short field so called open events ,,
I highly doubt there's any real evidence that would suggest the viewership is more on Bar Boxes as opposed to 9fts based on table size alone
The fact is most people only have a problem because it's coined a U.S. Open , 20 yrs from now when people look back at players accomplishments a U.S. Open 9 ball 10 ball and 8 ball will all be looked at as the same thing when infact there no where near the same thing
It's not about creating more events it's about keeping the Term US Open sacred and not tainted

1

GaryB
07-26-2016, 09:51 PM
I have no interest in watching or playing bar box pool. If I had no access to 9' tables it might be different but I doubt it.

US Open on bar boxes is just a bastardization of the title.

JMO

arps
07-27-2016, 12:03 AM
WHY is the US Open on the 7 Foot tables now?

so people can say the word "pack" more often.
"yeah, that kid played so well he ran a 5-pack! i bet he could run an 8-pack if he used the super magic chalk!":grin-square:

vjmehra
07-27-2016, 12:38 AM
I asked before but noone gave an answer, if they are going to play on bar tables, why not just tighten the pockets to sizes like the chinese 8 ball table ones? Aren't those the same pocket sizes I keep seeing people playing in England and they play on bar tables.

I don't think they'll be the same size as English pool balls are only 2 inches rather than 2.25.

That said I've been saying the same thing, I'd like to see 8-Ball globally try to merge into one discipline, played on Chinese style tables, 7 footers for bars/pubs and 9 footers for tournaments.

One option that is used (or at least was it may not be anymore) is in the EPA English Pool World Championships they use 7 footers up until the semi-finals, then 8 footers for the semi's and final.

justtapitin
07-27-2016, 01:39 AM
I'll never watch or play pool on a 7' table unless Karen Corr is giving me a free lesson on one. Don't have anything against 7-footers other than I'm just plain not interested in them regardless of the level of play. No hate, just complete indifference. If my 9' Diamond Pro hadn't fit in my house I would not have bought a table.

But don't take any of that "girlie" table stuff. If you enjoy playing and watching on 7-footers, have at it. What do you care what the haters say? They're just trying to think of themselves as the "real" pool players.

RiverCity
07-27-2016, 01:52 AM
WHY is the US Open on the 7 Foot tables now?

so people can say the word "pack" more often.
"yeah, that kid played so well he ran a 5-pack! i bet he could run an 8-pack if he used the super magic chalk!":grin-square:

And dont forget the shoes.....you cant forget the shoes........ :grin-square:

Cornerman
07-27-2016, 06:08 AM
WHY is the US Open on the 7 Foot tables now?

so people can say the word "pack" more often.
"yeah, that kid played so well he ran a 5-pack! i bet he could run an 8-pack if he used the super magic chalk!":grin-square:

Alternating breaks at the US Open 10-ball and 8-ball, but keep on keeping on.


Freddie <~~~ pack

Jimbojim
07-27-2016, 08:18 AM
Its so depressing IMO.

Baby Huey
07-27-2016, 08:45 AM
Don't think for one minute that switching to the smaller 7' tables is the first time pool has downsized it's playing equipment. For at least 50 years pool was played on 5x10' tables. All pool rooms had 10 footers then for some reason (history only knows) we switched to 9 footers. My opinion is that pool is becoming more of a "bar" game vs a pool room game. The game is evolving whether we like it or not. Pool is space conscious now and that means less rent to pay to open a room. I think we are going to see rooms with the same number of bar tables and full sized tables as the norm vs the exception. Personally I think the bar game has its merits but then becomes very limited in terms of what games can be played to any degree of proficiency. There is a high degree of push back coming from the players and I'm sure the BCA is tired of hearing this question being raised over and over. Until some other promoters come forward and really make an effort to bring back the 9 foot games like 14.1 or one pocket we will continue to downsize the game such that the bar game will take over. I believe that the International Stars will not compete on bar boxes too much longer and will not travel here to play. Maybe the Mosconi Cup will become a bar table event in the USA and a regulation event when played in Europe.....lol.

MuchoBurrito
07-27-2016, 08:53 AM
Maybe the Mosconi Cup will become a bar table event in the USA and a regulation event when played in Europe.....lol.

I would honestly boycott the Mosconi Cup if it ever went to a bar table format.

Positively Ralf
07-27-2016, 04:40 PM
If I'm coming off like I do not know anything, please let me know.

But where is this idea that bar tables are taking over is coming from? I've been back to playing pool after a 10 year hiatus last year and every pool room I go to have more 9 footers than 7 footers. One of my local places has 10 9 footers as their main tables and the four 7 footers tend to be in the back and they only rarely ever see anyone playing on them except some people looking for a fun time at the place.

The only times I ever see bar tables is at bars that feel like having a pool table but can only afford one and space is at a premium for them because they are not a pool hall first.

So again, where is this idea coming from that bar tables will be the norm or are currently taking over?

gxman
07-27-2016, 07:59 PM
The main pool room I go to has about 14 8ft, 2 9ft, and 2 valley 7ft. The 2 9ft's are always occupied. Tournaments played on the 8ft, and hardly anyone ever on the valleys.

arps
07-27-2016, 08:14 PM
kidding aside, i think 8-ball pool on a 7-footer is more difficult than on a 9 foot table.