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billiardthought
07-26-2016, 10:40 AM
I thought this was worth discussing in it's own thread. With all the recent discussion about "why pool is dead", "this would be good for pool", and the current discussion regarding pros playing on seven foot tables - I found myself wondering why I personally wanted to see an improvement in the pool atmosphere. Maybe it is because I want more tournaments to happen just so I can watch them, maybe it's because I might enter some more tournaments if they were available. Maybe I want the hobby/sport/activity I love to increase in popularity just because I am already involved with it.

I am having trouble answering my own question, so I am wondering what the experts have to say? Why do YOU want pool to improve as a sport, or are you happy with how it is right now?

grindz
07-26-2016, 10:54 AM
Maybe..... we just want to see others place a higher value on something
we value highly?!

td

GideonF
07-26-2016, 11:06 AM
I thought this was worth discussing in it's own thread. With all the recent discussion about "why pool is dead", "this would be good for pool", and the current discussion regarding pros playing on seven foot tables - I found myself wondering why I personally wanted to see an improvement in the pool atmosphere. Maybe it is because I want more tournaments to happen just so I can watch them, maybe it's because I might enter some more tournaments if they were available. Maybe I want the hobby/sport/activity I love to increase in popularity just because I am already involved with it.

I am having trouble answering my own question, so I am wondering what the experts have to say? Why do YOU want pool to improve as a sport, or are you happy with how it is right now?

I am not an expert, but I will give you my answer as to why I would like it to improve.

Pool is my hobby. It will never be a profession for me. I enjoy playing and I enjoy watching.

First and foremost, I would like to see the pros be able to make a decent living. I'm not talking NBA money, but enough that say the top 100 players don't have to have day jobs, can concentrate on pool and getting better and bank some coin for when their careers are over. I think this would elevate the level of play (because more players could devote full time to the sport) and, quite frankly, I want to see the best players be able to consistently make some money.

Second, I would like for the sport, and the level of the sport, to grow. When I was on vacation in the Philippines this year, the cab-driver (once he knew I was Canadian and was in to pool) immediately said "Alex Pagulayan! Johnny Morra! Jason Klatt!". Like a New York Cabbie talking to me about who's pitching for the Blue Jays. None of my non-pool playing friends know or care about pool or pool players.

So I want more people to know about pool, more people to play, and more people to play well. I'm like those annoying people who said to me years ago "you've never seen Breaking Bad? You HAVE to watch that show". (I did and I loved it). I want to proselytize for the church of pool!

Pete
07-26-2016, 11:12 AM
I have found pool to be one of the hardest skills to learn and execute.

I am always shocked that others don't see the skill it takes to play the game at the lower levels never mind the high levels.

It seems that most outsiders think it's a waist of effort.

So I would like people to see that even at the hobby level it is a skill and excellence should get ones admiration.

I would like people to see what pros can do so we have a mark to shoot for.

I want to be a great pool player, but will sadly need to settle for being above average.

Chicagoplayer
07-26-2016, 11:42 AM
I am not an expert, but I will give you my answer as to why I would like it to improve.

Pool is my hobby. It will never be a profession for me. I enjoy playing and I enjoy watching.

First and foremost, I would like to see the pros be able to make a decent living. I'm not talking NBA money, but enough that say the top 100 players don't have to have day jobs, can concentrate on pool and getting better and bank some coin for when their careers are over. I think this would elevate the level of play (because more players could devote full time to the sport) and, quite frankly, I want to see the best players be able to consistently make some money.

Second, I would like for the sport, and the level of the sport, to grow. When I was on vacation in the Philippines this year, the cab-driver (once he knew I was Canadian and was in to pool) immediately said "Alex Pagulayan! Johnny Morra! Jason Klatt!". Like a New York Cabbie talking to me about who's pitching for the Blue Jays. None of my non-pool playing friends know or care about pool or pool players.

So I want more people to know about pool, more people to play, and more people to play well. I'm like those annoying people who said to me years ago "you've never seen Breaking Bad? You HAVE to watch that show". (I did and I loved it). I want to proselytize for the church of pool!

-to a great thread!
I too want these things and more for pool and the people who play.
These goals have lead me on my journey.
Every facet that we are, the good and even the bad, has it's place.
What I do recognise is that we are more than our "hustler" stigma,
and while it takes time for foundations to be laid, people are realizing this fact and change is happening.
Most anyone who holds a cue, smiles when they're at a table.
Doesn't matter what kind of table, Pool, Billiards, Snooker
Grown men become happy children when they get to play.
I've seen it, I've filmed it, I've lived it!
Preach, go tell it!

Amen.

"Raising the Hustler"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uxH63RqwSM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZaUOJgnqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXWl3wE3Bw

@Raisingthehustl
#RaisingtheHustler
#pooldocumentary
#poolordie

bdorman
07-26-2016, 11:48 AM
I just want to have a wider assortment of players to play with. I've got hundreds of people to play golf with, dozens to play tennis with, and so on...but only a handful of pool-playing friends.

More players would also mean more places to play. It would be nice if decent pool tables could be found in every bowling alley, etc. It might even revive a few extinct pool rooms.

I enjoy watching pros play but with the limited time I have to watch pro matches, it's not a major reason to increase pool's popularity.

So the pros can make a decent living? I've got friends who are starving artists and musicians. They chose the profession knowing they weren't going to make a decent living. No tears for them.

GideonF
07-26-2016, 11:51 AM
-to a great thread!

Most anyone who holds a cue, smiles when they're at a table.
Doesn't matter what kind of table, Pool, Billiards, Snooker
Grown men become happy children when they get to play.



Sure, except for the times we curse ourselves when we miss or blow the run out.

Earl said in one video I remember watching "This game is a curse"! I think it is both a blessing and a curse - I'm trying to change my own personal blessing to curse ratio.

9Ballz
07-26-2016, 11:59 AM
I would love to see all cue sports rise from the ashes. Almost everyone can
play. Needs one set of internationally recognized rules per discipline!
Must get youth involved to have any chance. Long live Cue Sports!!!!

sciarco
07-26-2016, 12:03 PM
Pool is a great skillful game anyone can play from 6yrs old to 96,but in my opinion the pros should be able to make a descent living concentrating on pool only.

vjmehra
07-26-2016, 01:14 PM
I have found pool to be one of the hardest skills to learn and execute.

I am always shocked that others don't see the skill it takes to play the game at the lower levels never mind the high levels.

It seems that most outsiders think it's a waist of effort.

So I would like people to see that even at the hobby level it is a skill and excellence should get ones admiration.

I would like people to see what pros can do so we have a mark to shoot for.

I want to be a great pool player, but will sadly need to settle for being above average.

But it doesn't take a lot of skill...thats the problem.

To win the world championship (or any major tournament) you have to play at a level most of us couldn't even dream of, however to pot a few balls on a table with 5.25 inch pockets (or whatever size they are on a standard club table, they may of course be smaller, I'm just guessing) anyone can turn up, having never played and feel like its an easy game.

Yes they may not appreciate the difficulty at even a slightly higher level, but so long as equipment exists that creates an easy game this is all the casual player will see.

For what its worth (and I accept this may be a uniquely British thing), club snooker tables have pockets bigger than the pro tables, but still approx 1.5 ball's across, so play incredibly tough for the casual player.

This (again I stress this may be a British thing) means over here people perceive snooker to be tough and pool to be easy.

That said Chinese pool seems to be a great middle ground between snooker and pool, very watchable (I think) and the pool players seem to come out on top, I'd definitely like to see more of that!

There is some truth in that of course, but as we all know, you have to beat your opponent not the table, that's the challenge in becoming the best!

Chicagoplayer
07-26-2016, 01:17 PM
I would love to see all cue sports rise from the ashes. Almost everyone can
play. Needs one set of internationally recognized rules per discipline!
Must get youth involved to have any chance. Long live Cue Sports!!!!

Well stated sir!

vjmehra
07-26-2016, 01:31 PM
Well stated sir!

Seconded!

The lack of consistent rules is really confusing for all and whilst its good to have different games, the pool community really needs to pick one or two and run with them.

If I had it my way, I'd like to see the following:

1) All 8-Ball disciplines agree a standard set of rules and table style, personally I would like to see Chinese style tables become the norm for 8-Ball, partly because with tighter pockets than a conventional table they would still be challenging for weaker players as 7 foot tables (which seems to be important for bars/pubs) and partly because they seem like a better table for 8-Ball overall! Additionally it seems to offer some kind of middle ground between US and English pool disciplines, so seems like a logical compromise.

2) 9-Ball should be played on 9 foot tables with regulation pocket sizes specified, something like 4.25 to 4.75 inches permitted.

3) 10-Ball and Straight pool should be played on 10 foot tables, maybe the pocket size range could be 4.5 to 5 inches here.

4) Snooker would obviously stay as it is

5) I'm ignoring other billiard games for now (Carom, Pyramid etc), but all other pool disciplines should be social games (for now, that can always change in time), trying to promote multiple disciplines is just confusing for fans and new players!

Hopefully this sort of conformity would encourage some TV coverage and if a couple of key markets get on board then who knows what could happen!

Oh and each discipline needs a world championship as its flagship event, not a US centric tournament (I appreciate in snooker its fairly UK centric, but that is changing).

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 01:39 PM
I just want to see real pool halls come back, with decent tables, 3 cushion tables, maybe a snooker table, etc. I'd also like to see a sport I actually like end up on TV some day. Now that I'm completely out of baseball, football and golf, I guess pool is it.

I'd love to see it in the Olympics.

I'd love for it to be like when I was in S. Korea. You couldn't throw a rock without hitting a pool room, and almost everyone I ran into played or knew something about it at least. Is it still like that? Hope so.

Johnnyt
07-26-2016, 01:41 PM
The main reason (there are many small reasons) pool is almost dead on the pro level is it's too boring for people today and it takes many years to get any good at it. Kids see a basketball star making millions of $ a year and then the BEST pool players in the world making under 200k a year and on no cereal boxes. Johnnyt

s0lidz
07-26-2016, 01:51 PM
But it doesn't take a lot of skill...thats the problem.

To win the world championship (or any major tournament) you have to play at a level most of us couldn't even dream of, however to pot a few balls on a table with 5.25 inch pockets (or whatever size they are on a standard club table, they may of course be smaller, I'm just guessing) anyone can turn up, having never played and feel like its an easy game.

You must be more talented than the average person. Nobody that I know, including myself, showed up and thought pool was easy. It was hard as hell to pocket a ball for me. After a few years of practicing I finally got to where I could run 15 or 20 balls straight pool style. I think my experiences are much closer to the norm than yours are.

bad_hit
07-26-2016, 01:53 PM
It's too complex of a game for the casual player to understand, yet it's easy enough to poke a few balls in the holes with a reasonable amount of practice.

The casual player can't comprehend what it takes to poke ALL the balls in the holes, over and over again. They simply can't appreciate what's going on.

Probably the same reason Chess isn't a popular sport that people watch, even though most of us have played Chess at least a few times in our lives.

People can't appreciate what it takes to be a Chess Grandmaster and can't follow the advanced moves of the game, so they'll never appeciate and love it

Ask anyone on the street...people view a Chess master as a genius. They view a Pool master as a cheating, lying, low-life thief. Not only is there a problem of appreciation, there's a problem of respect.

Why do I want improvement in the world of pool?...

Because I love the game and I want others to recognize what it takes to play it well and appreciate and love it too. That means that the "hustler" image needs to go away so that people appreciate Pool as the beautiful game that it is, and respect and admire the players.

Tramp Steamer
07-26-2016, 02:00 PM
I would like to see improvements at the local level. Why people are concerned about the welfare of the professional pool player is beyond me, but I digress.
I would like to see a modern well-lit, up-scale pool room with a strict dress code.
A place with no more than a couple of big screen TVs. One with looping YouTube matches, and the other with available streaming events.
A room with a pleasant decor and plenty of photographs, posters, and various wall art from the world of pool, past and present.
A fully equipped pro-shop with a first-rate cue repair facility.
Employees there would be appropriately dressed, in attire befitting the room. In addition, these employees would not be permitted to drink, or smoke, while on the job.
It would have a well stocked and elegant bar, but enclosed and located away from the tables. Five o'clock drunks would be discouraged, and only wine and beer by the glass would be permitted near the tables.
Music would be non-specific and in the background.
League play would be encouraged, and monthly tournaments would be held with added money provided.
And, after all of this, I'd like to see a pig fly out of my ass. :D

JoeyA
07-26-2016, 02:11 PM
Why do I want an improvement in the world of pool?

I guess it is because I have found lots of pleasure in the game for myself and would like for others to experience the good things pool has to offer.

While pool has a tolerance for those who come from different backgrounds, I find that a growing bigotry still drives a lot of people away from the sport.

I suppose some people just don't have a thick enough skin to deal with the jerks in pool.

For me, I seem to find good people in pool wherever I go.

JoeyA

vjmehra
07-26-2016, 02:22 PM
Well stated sir!

You must be more talented than the average person. Nobody that I know, including myself, showed up and thought pool was easy. It was hard as hell to pocket a ball for me. After a few years of practicing I finally got to where I could run 15 or 20 balls straight pool style. I think my experiences are much closer to the norm than yours are.

With all due respect perhaps you're taking what I said as a criticism, which wasn't intended, I'm not trying to belittle anyone, just trying to take a step back and view things from the casual observer.

I am by no means a good player, I occasionally play socially with friends of a similar level, however the first time I picked up a pool cue I managed to pot a few balls, I've never met anyone that couldn't do that...I'd be stunned if you were any different (if you think back are you honestly saying you couldn't pot even a few balls on your first attempt)?

My point is that to the casual player it is a very easy game, especially (and thats why I stressed it may be more of a British thing) when you compare to snooker or even English pool. The tables may only be 7 foot, but the pockets are tiny and for the casual player its much harder to pot a ball than a 9 foot table with 5.25 inch pockets!

Again I'm keen to stress, I fully appreciate pool is an incredibly tough game to be competitive at, especially at the top level, I'm merely stating that in order to improve its credibility, the pool community needs to address multiple issues. A key one, in my opinion is that the game is fundamentally too easy (to the casual viewer) and changing the equipment could solve that problem.

Again I stress, far more people here in the UK play snooker than US pool, yet it is a much harder game (in terms of simply potting a ball, I'm not trying to get into a snooker v pool debate), so I'm not of the view that a slightly tougher pool table wouldn't put people off, as I mentioned previously, I'd like to see different pool disciplines commit to specific table sizes/styles.

GideonF
07-26-2016, 02:23 PM
Why people are concerned about the welfare of the professional pool player is beyond me, but I digress.


Watching professional pool players gives me joy. Seeing the game that I love played to perfection is a beautiful thing. I would like it if those who give me the pleasure of watching their skill were able to make a decent living doing so.

And, if professionals were able to a make a decent living at it, more could concentrate on the game and the overall skill level might go up.

Tramp Steamer
07-26-2016, 02:42 PM
Watching professional pool players gives me joy. Seeing the game that I love played to perfection is a beautiful thing. I would like it if those who give me the pleasure of watching their skill were able to make a decent living doing so.
And, if professionals were able to a make a decent living at it, more could concentrate on the game and the overall skill level might go up.

I do not begrudge the pro pool player his due. If they can make more money, more power to them.
You're mistaken, however, if you believe that an increase in the money made by a professional is proportional to the skill level of ordinary players. If Frost, for instance, makes an extra ten grand next year playing One Pocket, it doesn't mean that I'll play the game any better than I do. :)

s0lidz
07-26-2016, 02:59 PM
With all due respect perhaps you're taking what I said as a criticism, which wasn't intended, I'm not trying to belittle anyone, just trying to take a step back and view things from the casual observer.

I am by no means a good player, I occasionally play socially with friends of a similar level, however the first time I picked up a pool cue I managed to pot a few balls, I've never met anyone that couldn't do that...I'd be stunned if you were any different (if you think back are you honestly saying you couldn't pot even a few balls on your first attempt)?

My point is that to the casual player it is a very easy game, especially (and thats why I stressed it may be more of a British thing) when you compare to snooker or even English pool. The tables may only be 7 foot, but the pockets are tiny and for the casual player its much harder to pot a ball than a 9 foot table with 5.25 inch pockets!

Again I'm keen to stress, I fully appreciate pool is an incredibly tough game to be competitive at, especially at the top level, I'm merely stating that in order to improve its credibility, the pool community needs to address multiple issues. A key one, in my opinion is that the game is fundamentally too easy (to the casual viewer) and changing the equipment could solve that problem.

Again I stress, far more people here in the UK play snooker than US pool, yet it is a much harder game (in terms of simply potting a ball, I'm not trying to get into a snooker v pool debate), so I'm not of the view that a slightly tougher pool table wouldn't put people off, as I mentioned previously, I'd like to see different pool disciplines commit to specific table sizes/styles.

I admit that I could be a rare case. My first experience at a pool table was playing 8-ball with a few friends. If we shot at 50 balls, we might have pocketed 10 or 15 of them. There was way more missing than potting. Perhaps that is what you are interpreting as easy, but my feeling in those days was that potting balls was hard as hell...running a rack wasn't even a remote possibility for us. That's the experience that most of my friends and family have whenever I go play pool with them today. I had a couple friends over to play recently and it took them 30 minutes to finish a game of 8-ball just because neither of them could make a shot.

vjmehra
07-26-2016, 03:10 PM
I admit that I could be a rare case. My first experience at a pool table was playing 8-ball with a few friends. If we shot at 50 balls, we might have pocketed 10 or 15 of them. There was way more missing than potting. Perhaps that is what you are interpreting as easy, but my feeling in those days was that potting balls was hard as hell...running a rack wasn't even a remote possibility for us. That's the experience that most of my friends and family have whenever I go play pool with them today. I had a couple friends over to play recently and it took them 30 minutes to finish a game of 8-ball just because neither of them could make a shot.

Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).

s0lidz
07-26-2016, 03:44 PM
Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).

Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.

john coloccia
07-26-2016, 03:54 PM
Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.

Look at what's happening with chess. It's coming back as a spectator activity. It's slow, but there are decades of damage to undo. They now have promoters and backers that get it and have found ways to make it entertaining AND get a new generation of children involved.

And there's probably more gambling in chess than there is in pool. It's just done a lot more respectfully.

sjm
07-26-2016, 04:41 PM
Why I want an improvement in our game is because it's becoming less and less watchable.

The single biggest change needed is having a neutral racker. Even if it's not done in the early rounds, have one once any major event gets down to eight players. Second, no major event should be played without a shot clock in the late rounds. In fairness, you do get this at Derby City, now the best event on the American pool calendar by a country mile.

Only Matchroom seems to fully understand that having a neutral racker and a shot clock makes any production look more professional and keeps an event moving.

vjmehra
07-27-2016, 12:43 AM
Fair enough. I definitely agree that there is an under--appreciation for the level of skill involved. I just think that even if the average person did understand, it would still be tough for pool to compete with the juggernauts in American sports....football, baseball, basketball, etc. Pool just isn't as exciting as those others and it takes a true pool player to get enjoyment out of a long pool match. As a spectator sport it just has too much competition in the US. That's my feeling on the subject.

I wonder if the problem is quite US centric, if you look at snooker it feels like it's growing in Asia, Europe and maybe even the UK still, yet we also have a ton of other competing sports.

I think you have room in the US sporting calendar, look at bowling, the PBA seems to offer a pretty good product, not sure how large the fan base is, but it seems well marketed and professional.

Personally I feel flagship World Championships are the key and a focus on the disciplines I mentioned earlier, rather than trying to market 100 different games. If you have a globally recognised World Champion I think it does wonders for a sport, look at Ronnie O'Sullivan!

jasonlaus
07-27-2016, 06:48 AM
Not totally dissimilar actually, I guess with 12 foot snooker tables more common over here, as a complete beginner I was probably delighted with 10/100 shots so 10/50 seems very easy by comparison :-)

But yes you are correct, my experience is essentially the same as yours, I'm just interpreting that as easy (again I stress for the casual player, I make the assumption casual players wouldn't necessarily appreciate tactical play and would simply assume if they could make 1/5 on their first attempt with any degree of practice they'd find the game fairly simple).

It's not anywhere close to easy - even without an opponent playing back at ya(safes)

Everybody that plays golf gets the ball in the hole eventually, and it's not even close to 5 or 10 times more shots/ball that you guys claim for pool "10/100, 10/50"That would be equal to shooting a 720 or 360 in 18 holes:eek: AND NOBODY CLAIMS GOLF IS EASY!

Everybody hits some pins in bowling, guess thats easy too?

I'd say pool is probably the hardest game to learn. The problem is that pros make it look "easy" most people don't understand playing position, they just think the ball got there somehow.....luck perhaps?
Jason

vjmehra
07-27-2016, 07:04 AM
It's not anywhere close to easy - even without an opponent playing back at ya(safes)

Everybody that plays golf gets the ball in the hole eventually, and it's not even close to 5 or 10 times more shots/ball that you guys claim for pool "10/100, 10/50"That would be equal to shooting a 720 or 360 in 18 holes:eek: AND NOBODY CLAIMS GOLF IS EASY!

Everybody hits some pins in bowling, guess thats easy too?

I'd say pool is probably the hardest game to learn. The problem is that pros make it look "easy" most people don't understand playing position, they just think the ball got there somehow.....luck perhaps?
Jason

Given the state of pool currently, do you not think perhaps that my interpretation may be closer to what people think than yours?

Again to re-iterate as I've said multiple times, I said the perception is that pool is easy...that said fundamentally I'd say pool is far easier than golf (by which I mean skills required to get round a course or play a set on your own). Both become difficult in a competitive situation.

So to clarify again I'm not saying it is easy to be a pro pool player...that may be harder than golf in reality due to the far lower earning opportunities, I'm saying there is a perception pool is easy due to the fundamentals of the game.

The tactics and nuances are lost on the casual player and if they continue to be ignored they won't care whether experienced players think it's a tough game or not, they will simply view it as a pub/bar game and nothing more.

jasonlaus
07-27-2016, 07:09 AM
Given the state of pool currently, do you not think perhaps that my interpretation may be closer to what people think than yours?

Again to re-iterate as I've said multiple times, I said the perception is that pool is easy...that said fundamentally I'd say pool is far easier than golf (by which I mean skills required to get round a course or play a set on your own). Both become difficult in a competitive situation.

So to clarify again I'm not saying it is easy to be a pro pool player...that may be harder than golf in reality due to the far lower earning opportunities, I'm saying there is a perception pool is easy due to the fundamentals of the game.

The tactics and nuances are lost on the casual player and if they continue to be ignored they won't care whether experienced players think it's a tough game or not, they will simply view it as a pub/bar game and nothing more.

I'd say you are wrong......and right:thumbup:
Jason

billiardthought
07-27-2016, 07:14 AM
Why I want an improvement in our game is because it's becoming less and less watchable.


Cant disagree with this right here

Jimbojim
07-27-2016, 07:26 AM
I find it sad that a professional can't make a living out of this. It requires the same level of dedication or even more than any other sports.

GideonF
07-27-2016, 08:01 AM
I do not begrudge the pro pool player his due. If they can make more money, more power to them.
You're mistaken, however, if you believe that an increase in the money made by a professional is proportional to the skill level of ordinary players. If Frost, for instance, makes an extra ten grand next year playing One Pocket, it doesn't mean that I'll play the game any better than I do. :)

Tramp,

My reply was less clear than it could have been. I believe that an increase in money at the pro level will increase the level of play at the pro level, as more players will be able to focus entirely on pool, afford to retain coaches etc.

Tramp Steamer
07-27-2016, 08:26 AM
Tramp,

My reply was less clear than it could have been. I believe that an increase in money at the pro level will increase the level of play at the pro level, as more players will be able to focus entirely on pool, afford to retain coaches etc.


Yes, indeed. I agree. A trickle up economy in the pool world.
I'll be honest with you Gideon, we hobbyist pool players should be more concerned with our own fate than that of the pros. They live in their world and we in ours. Other than the entertainment they provide we have little in common, save for the equipment.
Pool halls, pool rooms, and even sports bars and grills are closing at an alarming rate, all around the country. In addition, fewer and fewer youngsters are participating in the cue sports, these days, ultimately impacting the overall growth in player numbers.
I wouldn't have said this a couple of years ago, but our future lies in the leagues. Leagues generate money at the local level, and many league players are already adults when they first start. :smile:

vjmehra
07-27-2016, 11:09 AM
I'd say you are wrong......and right:thumbup:
Jason

I'll take that :-)

The most important thing is that the pool community is open minded enough for change without completely betraying the roots!

NitPicker
07-27-2016, 11:15 AM
I'd like to see pool and cue sports in general become more accessible to kids, like other school sports. Cue sports have many practical applications of mathematics and science, such as geometry, physics, and even astronomy. Many life lessons can be learned on a pool table too. Cue sports probably won't ever become as popular as others, because cue sports do require a bit more knowledge, skills and time to master than many others that are currently mainstream. It is a sport or activity usually drawn to those of a different caliber than the typical. And that's quite alright, as it is those that tend to elevate by giving themselves to the sport and not just taking the sport for themselves. I look at other pro sports, and while those participants are making more money than ever, I don't see a direct correlation to improvement in those sports. In fact, I think there is a very valid argument that money has actually detracted from competition because the money becomes more important than the game itself. That's why sports change rules for the sake of television, etc. It's more about revenue than it is about pure competition.

Getting people interested and exposed at an earlier age and increasing accessibility would enable and help drive further changes that people would like such as improved competition at all levels of the game. Pros could make millions, but if people are limited in their access to the game, your potential talent pool will always be limited. Increasing the interest and exposure will increase that pool of participants. That, in turn increases revenue for the industry.

pjacobs0308
08-06-2016, 01:18 PM
Many people might disagree with me on this point, but I look at the more "exciting" venues of pool such as the gambling halls of the Philippines and the Mosconi Cup and what I see is just that, excitement. As long as professional (or local for that matter) pool players don't allow the people watching around them to drink, cheer and have a good time while the match is going on, i.e. root for their team, people will not gain interest in my personal opinion. I think it's time for us to stop shushing people and have some lively tournaments where people are allowed to, like in the NBA during a free throw, be a part of the match. I think in all honesty that the best in the world could handle it. When people have to learn how to act by getting dirty looks and have to sit quiet, then you are in a situation where you MUST understand the game to have a good time. Cue sports in America needs to allow an atmosphere where you DON'T need to understand fully to have a good time.

The point that plenty of people have made that the children need to be involved in the game younger is also hinged upon what they are exposed to and what their public options are as a youth. With leagues, maybe a valid idea would be to have a "little league" of pool.

The reason I want to see it change is the same as everyone it seems, because I love it.

Cameron Smith
08-06-2016, 01:52 PM
I would just like to see more people exposed to the game I'm passionate about. I mean, millions of people already play at pool, but increased exposure and popularity of the competitive game will expose them to the skill and strategy that makes pool, snooker and billiards so engrossing. Not just bunting the balls about.

I've often wondered if the passion of pool fans is as common as other sports. I know that people get pretty wild about other sports, but I haven't met too many other sports fans that will constantly watch reruns of matches and games in the same way that we do. Not including highlights and documentaries of course.

Danny Harriman
08-06-2016, 02:34 PM
Never let a player continue to be owed $ for yrs. for a pro sanctioned event - where in the pool and billiard magazines say they got paid. People see this and they realize then for sure that the pro players have zero support for themselves or their conningly' pro organization. But hey if your silly enough to put up an entry fee where the $ is not in an escrow account and you don'y know the promoter that well. Then it's your loss.

Tramp Steamer
08-06-2016, 05:37 PM
I would like to see improvements at the local level. Why people are concerned about the welfare of the professional pool player is beyond me, but I digress.
I would like to see a modern well-lit, up-scale pool room with a strict dress code.
A place with no more than a couple of big screen TVs. One with looping YouTube matches, and the other with available streaming events.
A room with a pleasant decor and plenty of photographs, posters, and various wall art from the world of pool, past and present.
A fully equipped pro-shop with a first-rate cue repair facility.
Employees there would be appropriately dressed, in attire befitting the room. In addition, these employees would not be permitted to drink, or smoke, while on the job.
It would have a well stocked and elegant bar, but enclosed and located away from the tables. Five o'clock drunks would be discouraged, and only wine and beer by the glass would be permitted near the tables.
Music would be non-specific and in the background.
League play would be encouraged, and monthly tournaments would be held with added money provided.
And, after all of this, I'd like to see a pig fly out of my ass. :D


Why? Because if we're going to spend all the hours we do in a pool hall, I want it to be as nice a pool hall as humanly possible. One to be proud of. Not some hole in the wall piece of shit that smells like an ashtray and is so dark you can't find your way to the restrooms. :cool:

Gorramjayne
08-06-2016, 06:42 PM
I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that there's a hell of a lot of money in snooker (at least compared to pool) so maybe we should all play snooker instead. Except the pool audience would hate snooker's rules. Snooker needs to speed up and be more aggressive to appeal to pool fans.

New rules for snooker:

1) No soft breaks - three reds must pass the the middle pockets. Pink ball is left off the table until after the break, then spotted. Any color made on the break does not count and is respotted.

2) "Ball on" does NOT reset for the incoming player. You miss the color? You opponent has the option of shooting color OR red. So no playing safe up to balk tapping one of the balk colors when you don't like how the reds are sitting for a run.

3) You must make contact with the "ball on" AND a rail. None of this two-inch roll to tap a pack of reds bullshit.

4) You don't get four points for your opponent failing to make legal contact. You get ball in hand. Scratch is ball in hand.

5) Points of the colors has to change. While there are reds still on the table:
Yellow, Green and Brown = 4
Black, Pink and Blue = 2

Once the reds are gone, every color is worth 5.

6) Colors do not have to go in clean and you do not have to call your color - in fact, if you play a carom off any number of colors, you add their point value. If you pot multiple colors on the same shot, you multiply their point value by each other. Maths, b!tches!

7) The score follows a raw point total up to a 200+, like in straight pool, not racks/frames.

8) Every ball is worth double if you bank that mofo.

9) 15-second shot clock,twats. You gotta SPRINT 12 feet around the table if you play a down-table shot. No time to put on an extension? That's okay we have no foot-on-floor rule, instead you you just can't have either shoe touching the playing surface.

Also no stupid Strachan napped cloth, use only the finest Simonis bathed in teflon. The steel-backed rails and pocket shape can stay.

MuchoBurrito
08-06-2016, 09:30 PM
This is a good question actually.

More than a few people I know (including family) ask me what I "hope to get out of" playing pool, or what my "end game" is with pool... Now, nobody asks that about someone who plays golf or hockey or chess, etc. etc. etc... But for some reason, because I've dedicated my leisure time to pool, I get these crooked questions, intimating that there's something wrong with pool. And I'm f***king sick of it to be honest.

I think I want an improvement in the pool world so people treat pool like any other competitive activity, and not like it's ****ing Jenga.

vjmehra
08-07-2016, 12:51 AM
I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that there's a hell of a lot of money in snooker (at least compared to pool) so maybe we should all play snooker instead. Except the pool audience would hate snooker's rules. Snooker needs to speed up and be more aggressive to appeal to pool fans.

New rules for snooker:

1) No soft breaks - three reds must pass the the middle pockets. Pink ball is left off the table until after the break, then spotted. Any color made on the break does not count and is respotted.

2) "Ball on" does NOT reset for the incoming player. You miss the color? You opponent has the option of shooting color OR red. So no playing safe up to balk tapping one of the balk colors when you don't like how the reds are sitting for a run.

3) You must make contact with the "ball on" AND a rail. None of this two-inch roll to tap a pack of reds bullshit.

4) You don't get four points for your opponent failing to make legal contact. You get ball in hand. Scratch is ball in hand.

5) Points of the colors has to change. While there are reds still on the table:
Yellow, Green and Brown = 4
Black, Pink and Blue = 2

Once the reds are gone, every color is worth 5.

6) Colors do not have to go in clean and you do not have to call your color - in fact, if you play a carom off any number of colors, you add their point value. If you pot multiple colors on the same shot, you multiply their point value by each other. Maths, b!tches!

7) The score follows a raw point total up to a 200+, like in straight pool, not racks/frames.

8) Every ball is worth double if you bank that mofo.

9) 15-second shot clock,twats. You gotta SPRINT 12 feet around the table if you play a down-table shot. No time to put on an extension? That's okay we have no foot-on-floor rule, instead you you just can't have either shoe touching the playing surface.

Also no stupid Strachan napped cloth, use only the finest Simonis bathed in teflon. The steel-backed rails and pocket shape can stay.

I think you're over complicating things there!

That said they do use a shot clock and ball I hand for the snooker shootout and I think it works really well.

Maybe a bit longer than 15 seconds is needed for snooker though...even Ronnie's average shot time is something like 24 seconds these days!

Gorramjayne
08-07-2016, 01:08 AM
Fine, two reds have to cross the midline on the break, the point values of the colors remains the same, and we have a 25 second shot clock. And if you miss a color the other player gets to take a crack at it. Simple enough?

I go to a pool hall with a snooker table. I warm up on the snooker table getting my stroke in order until I can fire in the blue from any spot to any pocket without blinking, then switch over to playing rotation on a 9ft gold crown.... I have to admit, I have much more fun on the snooker table. Snooker just needs an update and it would be an amazing bit of sport, what people really want to see is amazing instinctual shooting under pressure. Ronnie's 5 minute 20 second perfect 147 break is the excitement people want, but without the tedious mucking about soft-breaking the reds, grabbing extensions and bridges, playing safe up into balk until a run opens up for a 147.

vjmehra
08-07-2016, 02:47 AM
Fine, two reds have to cross the midline on the break, the point values of the colors remains the same, and we have a 25 second shot clock. And if you miss a color the other player gets to take a crack at it. Simple enough?

I go to a pool hall with a snooker table. I warm up on the snooker table getting my stroke in order until I can fire in the blue from any spot to any pocket without blinking, then switch over to playing rotation on a 9ft gold crown.... I have to admit, I have much more fun on the snooker table. Snooker just needs an update and it would be an amazing bit of sport, what people really want to see is amazing instinctual shooting under pressure. Ronnie's 5 minute 20 second perfect 147 break is the excitement people want, but without the tedious mucking about soft-breaking the reds, grabbing extensions and bridges, playing safe up into balk until a run opens up for a 147.

I agree with your logic, but wouldn't quite tweak it as much...

I would still make the incoming player shoot at a red, additionally I think snooker requires a defensive break, if you break the balls up then for a top player you are gifting the frame to your opponent, but in exchange for sticking with that, I'll concede on having to hit a cushion :-)

So in summary, from your changes, I would vote for:

1) Ball in hand on all fouls (hence getting rid of the miss rule)
2) Having to hit a cushion after contact (possibly unless your snookered as in Blackball?)
3) 30 second shot clock
4) The cloth change I could be swayed on

One more that has been mentioned for pool before:

5) Allow the crowd to be loud (controversial)!

I agree people want to see fast fluent break building, but some of the safety battles can be good too (generally if they are then followed by a 100+ clearance or something so it demonstrates why it was so important to play safe for so long).

That said, snooker is (I think) growing in popularity around the world and the rules are well understood so I wouldn't change anything else.

How does that sound?

Gorramjayne
08-07-2016, 08:22 AM
I mean, the reason I want a running point total rather than winning frames and to change the green/yellow/brown to be worth more than the black/pink/blue is so you have an incentive to play the full length of the table. If you basically reverse the point values of the colors and the scoring continued through frames, I think it would create an interesting strategy choice between a lower rate of score building nursing reds around the black/pink/blue versus taking the risk of going back and forth down the table, taking longer pots for higher reward.

I personally like snooker as-is. I was just trying to imagine how to make high-level snooker appeal to the wider pool audience. Games like snooker are hard for people to appreciate unless they've tried playing. 10-ball is a bit easier for a non-enthusiast to recognize the skill required. The least popular formats for people to watch are one-pocket (the safety play is tedious, slow, and boring for those watching who don't understand the skill it takes) and 14.1 (watching someone run 100 balls ins impressive but there's very little back-and-forth). Top-level snooker is basically both of those things. Every frame starts out with a sometimes long safety battle moving balls by just inches, then someone (who isn't Ronnie) tediously takes the next 20-30 minutes to run 30+ shots in a row all on the same half of the table.

How do we format either pool or snooker to get the type of creative safety play we see in 10-ball but with more action in the middle of the frame so that people get to see both players in action? Something where a double-digit run is hard but appreciated, yet one player will rarely just run away with a frame?

Positively Ralf
08-07-2016, 09:01 AM
More coverage of players from Latin America. That is a part of the world that is still relatively unknown when it comes to many things, including pool/billiards.

vjmehra
08-07-2016, 09:18 AM
I mean, the reason I want a running point total rather than winning frames and to change the green/yellow/brown to be worth more than the black/pink/blue is so you have an incentive to play the full length of the table. If you basically reverse the point values of the colors and the scoring continued through frames, I think it would create an interesting strategy choice between a lower rate of score building nursing reds around the black/pink/blue versus taking the risk of going back and forth down the table, taking longer pots for higher reward.

I personally like snooker as-is. I was just trying to imagine how to make high-level snooker appeal to the wider pool audience. Games like snooker are hard for people to appreciate unless they've tried playing. 10-ball is a bit easier for a non-enthusiast to recognize the skill required. The least popular formats for people to watch are one-pocket (the safety play is tedious, slow, and boring for those watching who don't understand the skill it takes) and 14.1 (watching someone run 100 balls ins impressive but there's very little back-and-forth). Top-level snooker is basically both of those things. Every frame starts out with a sometimes long safety battle moving balls by just inches, then someone (who isn't Ronnie) tediously takes the next 20-30 minutes to run 30+ shots in a row all on the same half of the table.

How do we format either pool or snooker to get the type of creative safety play we see in 10-ball but with more action in the middle of the frame so that people get to see both players in action? Something where a double-digit run is hard but appreciated, yet one player will rarely just run away with a frame?

Switch the position of the colours, so black, pink, blue are in the d, brown on the blue spot, green on the pink and yellow on the black.

I'd try the other changes we mentioned first, as I'm not convinced this is necessary, but it could work!

acesinc1999
08-07-2016, 09:51 AM
You're funny!

I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that there's a hell of a lot of money in snooker (at least compared to pool) so maybe we should all play snooker instead. Except the pool audience would hate snooker's rules. Snooker needs to speed up and be more aggressive to appeal to pool fans.

New rules for snooker:

1) No soft breaks - three reds must pass the the middle pockets. Pink ball is left off the table until after the break, then spotted. Any color made on the break does not count and is respotted.

2) "Ball on" does NOT reset for the incoming player. You miss the color? You opponent has the option of shooting color OR red. So no playing safe up to balk tapping one of the balk colors when you don't like how the reds are sitting for a run.

3) You must make contact with the "ball on" AND a rail. None of this two-inch roll to tap a pack of reds bullshit.

4) You don't get four points for your opponent failing to make legal contact. You get ball in hand. Scratch is ball in hand.

5) Points of the colors has to change. While there are reds still on the table:
Yellow, Green and Brown = 4
Black, Pink and Blue = 2

Once the reds are gone, every color is worth 5.

6) Colors do not have to go in clean and you do not have to call your color - in fact, if you play a carom off any number of colors, you add their point value. If you pot multiple colors on the same shot, you multiply their point value by each other. Maths, b!tches!

7) The score follows a raw point total up to a 200+, like in straight pool, not racks/frames.

8) Every ball is worth double if you bank that mofo.

9) 15-second shot clock,twats. You gotta SPRINT 12 feet around the table if you play a down-table shot. No time to put on an extension? That's okay we have no foot-on-floor rule, instead you you just can't have either shoe touching the playing surface.

Also no stupid Strachan napped cloth, use only the finest Simonis bathed in teflon. The steel-backed rails and pocket shape can stay.

Snooker is the most popular cue sport in the world. Both for recreational play and for television viewing. By far.

Even the great Joe Davis tried to tinker with the formula by coming up with the concept of Snooker Plus. It went over like a lead balloon.

Snooker's popularity primarily began with the advent of colour television and thus exposure to the common masses. In the US, the cart is well ahead of the horse as somehow, we expect pool or snooker to magically become more popular by forcing those yet unaware of the appeal of the cue sports to somehow seek out that appeal of their own volition rather than being drawn in by the magical view of the "mini-pitch" on the television screen that they accidentally clicked across. People don't just wander into an arbitrary snooker hall looking for a public bathroom then fall in love with the pastime being played on the tables that they have to walk past. They must first become aware of its existence through a common, everyday exposure such as the word of a friend or an accidental stumble across on the TV screen. The way I did over thirty years ago.

It would certainly not become any more popular with the advent of your suggested changes. Anyone who believes Snooker is a slow game certainly isn't doing it right.