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ShootingArts
07-29-2016, 06:17 AM
I have warned for years that it is a crapshoot playing games with customs shipping cues with ivory or toting them in and out the country. Now Ernie has gotten nailed with something he may not have realized was even a crime, he sold to someone who turned around and exported the cues or cue pieces with ivory. The sentence isn't a small one, potentially ten years, and with Ginicue's high profile they may well make an example out of him. Doing any time at all will absolutely suck in your late seventies!

If you are going to own ivory and move it across borders be very sure you know the laws and have proper documentation. In this case Ernie Gutierrez just sold to someone who then broke the law. Apparently, customs is claiming foreknowledge or something.

Pool makes international news, as usual it is with a black eye.

Hu



"Seventy-five-year-old Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez surrendered Thursday. He's accused of aiding and abetting illegal exportation - which can carry a 10-year prison term."

dawgcpa
07-29-2016, 06:18 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_30183009/famous-cue-maker-charged-helping-smuggle-elephant-ivory

Link for review...

I hope for Ernie's sake it all goes away. This is crazy...

whammo57
07-29-2016, 06:25 AM
all may be not what it seems............ the cue maker sold materials or cues with ivory and they were worth $75,000 to $85,000. They were going home to Taiwan.........

I believe he knew where the cues were going.............

So........ maybe it's time to rethink putting ivory in cues.......

Kim

SSach
07-29-2016, 06:33 AM
How can they prove that Ernie is using illegal ivory. He has been making cues for a good amount of time and has had stock forever. If he can prove that the ivory was legal, what charges can they come with?

This does make everyone (cuemaker and collectors) rethink high-end cues with Ivory.

Wishing Ernie all the best! Although I see this being an expensive endeavor. Hopefully some of his past clients are lawyers and are able to help out.

GoldCrown
07-29-2016, 06:36 AM
Stiff sentence for selling ivory ...... A wrist slap for armed robbery, assault, murder. I'm speechless.

ShootingArts
07-29-2016, 06:48 AM
How can they prove that Ernie is using illegal ivory. He has been making cues for a good amount of time and has had stock forever. If he can prove that the ivory was legal, what charges can they come with?

This does make everyone (cuemaker and collectors) rethink high-end cues with Ivory.

Wishing Ernie all the best! Although I see this being an expensive endeavor. Hopefully some of his past clients are lawyers and are able to help out.


The ivory can be totally legal when you buy it, it is still a crime to export it from a CITE signee with few exceptions. Ginacue isn't accused of using illegal ivory but of aiding and abetting the illegal export of probably legal ivory.

Forty cue butts or so, Taiwanese nationals I believe, the claim is likely to be that Ernie knew the butts were for export. He probably did. Selling cues one at a time for decades that are then hauled overseas it no doubt seemed like no big deal to sell a bunch. Someone else got burned pretty big over four cues they exported themselves but this is the first time I have even heard of aiding and abetting being applied.

Hu

lfigueroa
07-29-2016, 06:50 AM
A few comments:

A few years back I was in Ernie's shop, having some repair work done, and he showed me some of the anniversary cues he was working on. I brought up the issue of ivory and he told me that his ivory was waaaaaaay pre-ban and from elephants that had died decades and decades earlier. I seem to recall that he knew the country of origin and even the circumstances of the elephant's death. So, given the way he spoke I would be relatively certain he has appropriate documentation.

The newspaper story makes it sound like customs stumbled on these cues in someone's luggage and perhaps the purchaser was scared and said anything and everything to try and save themselves. Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.

The other things is that given what Ernie gets for his cues, over a long career, I'm guessing he can afford a very good lawyer.

Lou Figueroa

Ill Gotten Gain
07-29-2016, 06:58 AM
The ivory can be totally legal when you buy it, it is still a crime to export it from a CITE signee with few exceptions. Ginacue isn't accused of using illegal ivory but of aiding and abetting the illegal export of probably legal ivory.

Forty cue butts or so, Taiwanese nationals I believe, the claim is likely to be that Ernie knew the butts were for export. He probably did. Selling cues one at a time for decades that are then hauled overseas it no doubt seemed like no big deal to sell a bunch. Someone else got burned pretty big over four cues they exported themselves but this is the first time I have even heard of aiding and abetting being applied.

Hu

I don't think much will happen to Ernie

It's like saying every gun shop is selling all their guns for criminal intent. If the guns were purchased legally, what can the gun shop owners do?

slide13
07-29-2016, 07:03 AM
Will be really interesting to see how this shakes out. I really hope Ernie is able to get out of this, my guess is with good representation he probably can, but who knows. And who knows how much that will cost him.

Sad to hear of it happening to such a legendary cue maker.

"41 sections of a cue"....so I'm guessing we're talking about 13ish cues with 1 butt, 2 shafts each meaning 39 "sections"...plus a couple extra shafts?

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 07:08 AM
A few comments:

A few years back I was in Ernie's shop, having some repair work done, and he showed me some of the anniversary cues he was working on. I brought up the issue of ivory and he told me that his ivory was waaaaaaay pre-ban and from elephants that had died decades and decades earlier. I seem to recall that he knew the country of origin and even the circumstances of the elephant's death. So, given the way he spoke I would be relatively certain he has appropriate documentation.

The newspaper story makes it sound like customs stumbled on these cues in someone's luggage and perhaps the purchaser was scared and said anything and everything to try and save themselves. Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.

The other things is that given what Ernie gets for his cues, over a long career, I'm guessing he can afford a very good lawyer.

Lou Figueroa

I agree with all of this. I believe it's a VERY TALL order they can prove what ANYONE is going to do with their purchased cues once they take possession and while " they " may try to say this I think it's very unrealistic to expect him to know at all whatsoever what will happen with his product once sold. With all that being said, I'm pretty sure he will get off - after much BS! SAD, VERY SAD that this is the best use they can find with out tax dollars. Maybe, just maybe our tax dollars might be better spent trying to keep us, US Human's safe, as opposed to an animal????

GideonF
07-29-2016, 07:37 AM
Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.



Possibly. On the other hand, maybe the buyer emailed Ernie and specifically mentioned that he was going to be coming to town from Taiwan and wanted some cues to take back with him. That is complete speculation, of course, but until we see how this plays out we have no idea whether the case is weak or strong.

lfigueroa
07-29-2016, 07:50 AM
Possibly. On the other hand, maybe the buyer emailed Ernie and specifically mentioned that he was going to be coming to town from Taiwan and wanted some cues to take back with him. That is complete speculation, of course, but until we see how this plays out we have no idea whether the case is weak or strong.


And perhaps Ernie told said buyer, "Shipping them out of the country is illegal."

Once they leave his shop they are the property of the guy who paid. Put them in a display case, play pool with them, resell them, set them on fire. He has zero control.

Lou Figueroa

Walkermine
07-29-2016, 08:12 AM
There's also a California ban on selling ivory to anyone. We can play this anyway we want. It isn't about being able to afford a good lawyer. It sucks and I hope him the best through what will certainly be a trying time.

dvs
07-29-2016, 08:21 AM
This has been a much discussed topic on this forum for quite a while now. Matt has gone over the details and we've had posts with the actual statute or law recited.

I feel terrible for Ernie; and wish him the very best of luck with this nightmare.

I've read the posts and it seems as though most, (like at least 95 percent) of the cues with ivory would fall under the weight and other exemptions.

So the average guy may have a cue with ivory butt cap and/or joint and/or ferrule.

Now he can't sell it to someone in another state, especially the one listed like NY and CA.

So, if I ship one of my cues with very minimal ivory, buttcap and joint, out of NY I read it as thou I am breaking the law; even if I just carry the cue on a plane to Vegas or anywhere out of NY.

But, I don't see how the cue builder could be liable at all.

Would a cue owner/seller or purchaser who travels, send or recives such a cue (minimal ivory) interstate be criminally liable?

I know its' a mess, but most of these cues are many years old; certainly before the passage of this act.

This will be a hot topic and I know we all wish Ernie the best.

Dave


link with some info https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html


Under the "de-minimis" exception, (I) seems like the hardest to prove. That it came into US before 1990.

The 50 percent and value component would likely be self evident.

I guess we need to start contact cue builders and get letters from them or some documentation.

Anyone want an old piano (made in 1977)?

ctyhntr
07-29-2016, 08:27 AM
If the goal is to stop penalize poachers and illegal traffickers, then this is an example of an ineffective law.

TATE
07-29-2016, 08:27 AM
Ernie will handle this. What it's going to do is give every other cue maker a good scare. If they use ivory, they need to make sure they are legally covered with certificates of origin etc. My guess is many will just say no to ivory orders, since the laws are so difficult.

This is a game changer.

bdorman
07-29-2016, 09:02 AM
I've warned AZers about this in nearly every "Ivory Ban" thread. The government doesn't care if you're innocent or guilty. They just want the big headline that tells the public "we're doing our job."

Ernie will spend $50,000 in lawyer's fees and a good portion of the rest of his days fighting to clear his name. The prosecutors know he'll win, but they also know there won't be any headline that says "Ginacue found innocent" or "Charges dropped against Ginacue."

Or, he could reach a settlement with the government. Publicly confess to something you didn't do. Turn over all your ivory to the government (even though it's legal pre-ban ivory) and loudly promise to never use ivory again. Welcome to North Korea.

Str8PoolPlayer
07-29-2016, 09:24 AM
It would be great if Mike Garland (Quality Cues) would chime in, as he is an Attorney.

This sounds like a Witch Hunt to me. They are looking to "make an example" of someone.

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 09:35 AM
This whole ivory thing truthfully does not effect me one way or the other. While I have nothing against the use of ivory in a cue I've never really been a big fan either - but not for the reasons one might suspect. Back in the day when I bought and sold a lot of cues, I'd occasionally run across a cue with ivory ferrules , joints, or but caps but not really any " monster " cues heavy in ivory. As far as the hit, I honestly can't say I've ever thought the " hit " was any better or different. As far as the joints, regardless of what material is used I've ALWAYS preferred a wood to wood joint hands down. The button cap I could've cared less. When it comes to the ferrule, as I said I honestly couldn't tell the difference but what I did care about is I was always scared to death I was gonna " Crack or split " the ivory ferrules. For me, the only upside of having ivory in a cue was for the increased value or desire ability of the cue. Rarely sell any cues anymore and haven't worried about flipping them in well over a decade if not more.

So with all of this said why even worry about posting then? Good question. For me it comes down to freedom of choice, or the lack of. It's just another example for me of our government having totally screwed priorities. Without even thinking about it I can name at least 100 things that the money being used to investigate / enforce these stupid ivory laws where that money would be MUCH BETTER SPENT! How but using it for security purposes? I mean whats it been a few months since all those people where slaughtered right there in Cali? Roads, bridges ( I think the number is something like 75% of all bridges are considered structurally unsafe ?). How about using that money to help some of the countless homeless vets? Helping to feed the countless people that have no idear where their next meal is coming from ? I could go on and on, Imo the priorities just seem F'd to me. Not even to mention, as I did earlier, I find it repulsive that a small group of folks think it's OK to dictate to all the rest of us what we can and can't do, what we can and can't have etc......

So my question is this : I already think I know the answer but is there anything that we ( the little folks ) can actually do about this? What a petition ? Don't see that doing ANYTHING !!!!! A go fund me for Earnie or any other cue makers caught up in this ? Don't see that doing much, not to mention that will not help the root problem. Ok, how about calling / writing our local representatives? When was the last time that's had any effect whatsoever? Unless of course you are one of there biggest donors? Anyone have any idears? Would love to hear!

I just say it, this suckered - REALLY SUCKS!!! A man just trying to make an honest living and now he faces years of time in prison, not to mention the HUGE legal bills he will undoubtedly rack up trying to defend himself. Conversely, you can be on the corner in the hood selling Crack or dope and get busted and what get like 90 days of free room and board courtesy of the tax payers ( tax payers = people with actual jobs WORKING ! ) Sorry for the rant but when I hear stuff like this happening to good honest people it really really gets to me!!!!

skins
07-29-2016, 09:54 AM
Pre ban, Legal, 1000 year old, etc..it don't matter. In California as of the beginning of July you can't sell pretty much anything with ivory in it period. You can't ship anything with ivory out of nor into California either...

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 10:08 AM
Just read on Facebook that 40 MINUTES AGO EARNIE WAS ARRESTED!!!!

skins
07-29-2016, 10:10 AM
Just read on Facebook that 40 MINUTES AGO EARNIE WAS ARRESTED!!!!

He turned himself in...He was released on bond... That's what the article I read said..

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 10:12 AM
He turned himself in...He was released on bond...

No idea who the guy is but supposedly he is a huge player in the high end cue market but he was arrested on " smuggling " also. The guy from Taiwan is Chady Lui. Any of yall familiar with this guy?

alstl
07-29-2016, 10:13 AM
The ivory can be totally legal when you buy it, it is still a crime to export it from a CITE signee with few exceptions. Ginacue isn't accused of using illegal ivory but of aiding and abetting the illegal export of probably legal ivory.

Forty cue butts or so, Taiwanese nationals I believe, the claim is likely to be that Ernie knew the butts were for export. He probably did. Selling cues one at a time for decades that are then hauled overseas it no doubt seemed like no big deal to sell a bunch. Someone else got burned pretty big over four cues they exported themselves but this is the first time I have even heard of aiding and abetting being applied.

Hu

Wow, Obama is releasing tens of thousands of drug dealers back onto the street, violent crime is spiking and they are worried about this? A case of misplaced priorities.

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 10:14 AM
He turned himself in...He was released on bond... That's what the article I read said..

Well regardless if he turned himself in or they kicked in his door they put the cuffs on him and arrested him - I hate to see this no matter what the specifics are!

TWOFORPOOL
07-29-2016, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't be a bit surprised that the government setup a sting operation on Ginacue. If this was a sting operation Ernie is in a ton of trouble since the government will have clear evidence showing Ernie knew where the cues were going. What better way to set an example than popping an icon in the cue making industry.

Kid Dynomite
07-29-2016, 10:42 AM
Interesting set of circumstances! Given the order and money was spent years ago! The date of purchase is under "dispute" !!!

The verbal contract was well over a year ago to produce 13 cues! The new law created a catch 22!!! Breach of contract if he does not fulfill the order! Vs. Violation of the new law on ivory!

Under either scenario he is in violation of the law for either breach of contract or breach of the law on ivory!

Sounds like he worked diligently to fill the order as quickly as possible to avoid any possible issues and the new owner did not beat the deadline!

Situations like this where no outcome is legal is such a poorly designed law that it often is over turned

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

phil dade
07-29-2016, 10:45 AM
Since this is seeping out , it happened, ( the person being caught) early May or end of April. The person had Ginas. The cues were legally sold long before the ban. The only thing that makes sense is that the person caught must have denied ownership and knowledge of content...blah blah.

CJH
07-29-2016, 10:55 AM
Pre ban, Legal, 1000 year old, etc..it don't matter. In California as of the beginning of July you can't sell pretty much anything with ivory in it period. You can't ship anything with ivory out of nor into California either...

Yes, but if Ernie sold cues with pre-ban Ivory and the entire transaction took place in California its a different story. Unless of course he conspired to export which apparently is the charge.

PhilosopherKing
07-29-2016, 10:57 AM
You'd think he'd make it a priority to get an $80,000 order through the window.

Kid Dynomite
07-29-2016, 11:14 AM
You'd think he'd make it a priority to get an $80,000 order through the window.
13 cues is a lot of work and glue and woods need to set! Of course he could sacrifice quality for speed!

But then you would be the first to complain about such poorly made cues if he did "slap" them together and make the" window"

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

shadowmoss
07-29-2016, 11:17 AM
[QUOTE=bdorman;5622410]I've warned AZers about this in nearly every "Ivory Ban" thread. The government doesn't care if you're innocent or guilty. They just want the big headline that tells the public "we're doing our job."

Exactly, how correct this statement is. But you forgot a line. ( " Now we need more tax money and bureaucrats to do a better job")

Kid Dynomite
07-29-2016, 11:23 AM
The public disclosure of the new law did not allow sufficient time before going into effect and created a situation where citizens are instantly in violation of the law as soon as the law went into effect!

Legislation did not account for the contractual obligations and time of completion adequately!

A decent lawyer should be able to articulate the dilemma and get him off!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

skins
07-29-2016, 11:36 AM
Yes, but if Ernie sold cues with pre-ban Ivory and the entire transaction took place in California its a different story. Unless of course he conspired to export which apparently is the charge.

It went down IN Cali and the buyer tried to take them out of the country..Either way you can't sell ANYTHING with ivory in it in Cali period as of early July.

bdorman
07-29-2016, 11:38 AM
Wow, Obama is releasing tens of thousands of drug dealers back onto the street, violent crime is spiking and they are worried about this? A case of misplaced priorities.

Not if you're a prosecutor who's Performance Review is in three months.

BmoreMoney
07-29-2016, 11:40 AM
As per what I read on the book of faces, it was unclear exactly how this all went down but what it did say is the Taiwanese guy Lui was arrested immediately following SBE, which of course was in April ( well before the ban took effect ). So there may be more to this story than what we've heard as of yet?????

dvs
07-29-2016, 11:50 AM
Way too many varaibles and unknowns.

Written contract/purchase order?
date of order
payment schedule
completion date
pre-ban (legally acquired ivory)
delivery date
delivery location
date of alleged attempted export
any knowledge (actual or imputed) on Ernie's part

Was this Liu guy arrested in April and flipped by Feds
Did they have him wired to get Ernie in a conspiracy
entrapment?

We've all seen law and order more than once


Easy to jump to conclusions, hopefully facts will come to light and Ernie will be exonerated

Anyway, seems like dark clouds, not only on the horizon, but directly overhead.

I'll just keep the cues I have with their ivory and only travel a few miles to the local hall or downstairs to my basement table.

I'm even reluctant at this point to ask my cue maker for a letter or certification of some sort that my cues contain legally acquired ivory.

It appears that Ernie sold the cues to this guy in California

"Under Federal law, you can sell your African elephant ivory within your state (intrastate commerce) if you can demonstrate that your ivory was lawfully imported prior to the date that the African elephant was listed in CITES Appendix I (January 18, 1990). This documentation could be in the form of a CITES pre-Convention certificate, a datable photo, a dated letter or other document referring to the item, or other evidence."

So I guess issue becomes did Ernie knowingly conspire to export, and/or was it legit ivory.




What a mess!

whammo57
07-29-2016, 11:50 AM
How can they prove that Ernie is using illegal ivory. He has been making cues for a good amount of time and has had stock forever. If he can prove that the ivory was legal, what charges can they come with?

This does make everyone (cuemaker and collectors) rethink high-end cues with Ivory.

Wishing Ernie all the best! Although I see this being an expensive endeavor. Hopefully some of his past clients are lawyers and are able to help out.

it has nothing to do with illegal or legal ivory.............. you cannot ship it out of the country............

Kim

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 12:20 PM
This sucks and a huge turn off to owning such a material.

I live in California and can anyone tell me if I can get in trouble if i get pulled over with an ivory cue? Knowing the police I will assume they will want to check what is in the cue case since it looks like something suspicious for those not in the know.

What if i drove to a tournament in vegas?

Kid Dynomite
07-29-2016, 12:51 PM
Cork a baseball bat and hide the cue inside and put it in a bat bag! Customs would never know.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

dawgcpa
07-29-2016, 12:56 PM
As per what I read on the book of faces, it was unclear exactly how this all went down but what it did say is the Taiwanese guy Lui was arrested immediately following SBE, which of course was in April ( well before the ban took effect ). So there may be more to this story than what we've heard as of yet?????

For the love of humanity, if a cue was really worth 80K, I hope it was hollow and slam full of blow. Maybe that's what we are missing and it will come out later. Maybe then Ernie will be cleared of all this ivory mess! LOL

commswatch
07-29-2016, 01:00 PM
Ernie doesn't need to prove the ivory is legal.....the gov't needs to prove the ivory is ILLEGAL

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 01:14 PM
Cork a baseball bat and hide the cue inside and put it in a bat bag! Customs would never know.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

It will not end well when you purposely conceal an illegal item.

Chopdoc
07-29-2016, 01:20 PM
Ernie doesn't need to prove the ivory is legal.....the gov't needs to prove the ivory is ILLEGAL

Which can require destroying the cues just to prove whether it is ivory, let alone whether it is illegal or not.


I won't speculate on what happened or what will happen, but I will say I believe this is likely real trouble and of serious concern. These are feds, and there are politics involved. Look what happened to Gibson Guitars.


The reality, like it or not, is he may have a lot to prove, and it may not matter anyway. One can go broke just defending such a thing.




.





.

PhilosopherKing
07-29-2016, 01:30 PM
13 cues is a lot of work and glue and woods need to set! Of course he could sacrifice quality for speed!

But then you would be the first to complain about such poorly made cues if he did "slap" them together and make the" window"

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

You've obviously got it all figured-out.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 01:32 PM
The public disclosure of the new law did not allow sufficient time before going into effect and created a situation where citizens are instantly in violation of the law as soon as the law went into effect!

Legislation did not account for the contractual obligations and time of completion adequately!

A decent lawyer should be able to articulate the dilemma and get him off!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

There are no decent lawyers.

Look at the Supreme Court.

4 vote one way and the other 4 vote the opposite.

Does Ernie have "heads" or "tails".

I'd say the government has a rigged coin.

franko
07-29-2016, 01:35 PM
Ernie doesn't need to prove the ivory is legal.....the gov't needs to prove the ivory is ILLEGAL

The way it was explained to me over a year ago and I don't want to drag anyone in to this but it was a pretty good source. With Ivory like with the IRS you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

TATE
07-29-2016, 01:38 PM
This sucks and a huge turn off to owning such a material.

I live in California and can anyone tell me if I can get in trouble if i get pulled over with an ivory cue? Knowing the police I will assume they will want to check what is in the cue case since it looks like something suspicious for those not in the know.

What if i drove to a tournament in vegas?


I took my ivory jointed cue to China. They didn't even know what a pool cue was.

dawgcpa
07-29-2016, 01:40 PM
Which can require destroying the cues just to prove whether it is ivory, let alone whether it is illegal or not.


I won't speculate on what happened or what will happen, but I will say I believe this is likely real trouble and of serious concern. These are feds, and there are politics involved. Look what happened to Gibson Guitars.


The reality, like it or not, is he may have a lot to prove, and it may not matter anyway. One can go broke just defending such a thing..

You are right, some pretty stiff fines to have and legal fees on top of that....

This is just crazy for a cue maker.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110829/00215015722/feds-raid-gibson-musicians-now-worried-govt-will-take-their-guitars-away.shtml


.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 02:06 PM
This is just horrible. Soon it will be politically incorrect to play with an ivory cue.

Players will now protest to tournament directors.

Tournaments will impose rules to disallow such items to be used.

I can see this happening.

cueaddicts
07-29-2016, 02:40 PM
I have learned a lot from reading all the comments about this here and on fb. Most can't read and understand simple English. Smh

classiccues
07-29-2016, 03:03 PM
Ebony and Ivory...
Two materials I can't use in harmony...
Some liberal jackass says that its not good
To mix elephant tusk with ebony wood...
Want to hang those tree hugging morons by a rope....
Starting with Obama and his change and hope...

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 03:43 PM
How will this affect cue sales here on AZB, with sellers listing their cues that contain ivory?

Is it illegal to buy one?

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 03:49 PM
How will this affect cue sales here on AZB, with sellers listing their cues that contain ivory?



Is it illegal to buy one?


I like to know too.

I'm in California.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 03:56 PM
How will this affect cue sales here on AZB, with sellers listing their cues that contain ivory?

Is it illegal to buy one?

I'll take it a step further.

Is it illegal to even advertise that you are selling an illegal substance?

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 04:01 PM
I'll take it a step further.



Is it illegal to even advertise that you are selling an illegal substance?


You should make a thread regarding this question.

ElLeon
07-29-2016, 04:06 PM
The way it was explained to me over a year ago and I don't want to drag anyone in to this but it was a pretty good source. With Ivory like with the IRS you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

Who-whaaaaa????

As a tax accountant I'm not sure what you are referring to here. The IRS's first correspondence with you will be to alert you to where your calculations *may* be wrong and they invite you to open dialog (via snail mail) to support your facts. I have successfully defended many clients with no more than a single mailing to the IRS. They don't strong-arm people.

This is no different than the criminal proceedings which are currently in process against Ginacue. Now the opportunity to present one's case will be had. There are too many unknowns in this particular case to make an educated guess towards guilt or innocence at this time.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 04:08 PM
You should make a thread regarding this question.

Feel free to do so.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 04:14 PM
This law has caused a shit show.

Watch the FBI do stings on the for sale section. Get a seller to agree to send to a state where it is illegal and they are seeing federal charges.

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 04:18 PM
It is going to come down to this........The only way Ernie can be found innocent of violating the CA ivory ban (AB-96 effective 7/1/16), not the Federal regulation, is if Ginacue can legally substantiate the following:

1. The ivory he used in the cue was actually pre-ban ivory.
2. The cue was actually built and shipped prior to July 1, 2016.

Both of these conditions are inviolate requirements under the CA ban and Ernie & possibly his customer under certain circumstances, have a big legal problem if the aforementioned conditions were not satisfied. If Ernie even assisted the shipping of a cue with ivory that he built before the ban took effect, it has no bearing. If shipping involves the sale of a cue, or a cue repair and "any" ivory was used, the cue had to be shipped by June 30, 2016. Any cue completed or shipped thereafter is a violation of the law. I know this to be factually true and I communicated that to Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn whom were building me custom cues scheduled for completion after July 1, 2016. This past March, I updated them about what I was told by CA Fish & Wildlife and both guys moved heaven & earth to get my cues finished by this past Memorial Day weekend. And there's a shitload of ivory in these cues so I was definitely concerned about the CA regulation. Thank goodness both of these cues now safely reside in my cue case.

California cue-makers that have anything in their shop had better get rid of everything involving ivory because the head of Enforcement at CA Fish & Wildlife could be sending agents to your shop tomorrow.....and they have the authority to inspect your premises and business records. I've been warning about this on the Forum since May after I started having communications with the Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES documentation for my cues for my own protection.

If you get caught, you may not wind up receiving the criminal imprisonment penalty allowed under the law but rest assured, you will absolutely lose you cue and receive a substantial fine and the maximum fine is not totally unimaginable for a buyer ($5k). The ivory ban is a serious impediment to cue-making and naturally for all other uses & applications as well. Do not order a cue from a CA cue-maker with ivory or else just be prepared for problems. You are far better off buying the cue in person from a individual seller. If you reside in CA, meet on the other side of the Nevada state line when you buy or sell the cue. I was told very specifically what I need to do to sell my EP cue to help finance the purchase of a Hercek cue that would also have ivory. As long as I am not in the state of California when that takes place, i.e., both the sale of my EP cue & purchase of a Hercek cue, I satisfy California Assembly Bill AB-96 and it is completely legal & permissible.


Matt B.



p.s. If Ernie has documentation that the ivory was purchased legally and can show inventory control records for usage, he will not have to do anything else.
But the burden of proof is on Ernie....he must show he abides by the law that banned ivory after 1978. He just cannot state the ivory is legal and he must
prove it because ivory was banned long ago. If he does not have adequate documentation, then US Fish & Wildlife is permitted to test sample the ivory and
carbon date it for age. They drill into the pool cue and take as many samples as they are inclined to take. Some of the ivory in a cue might be a combination of
legal pre-ban ivory and more recently poached ivory. The only way to know is to sample all of the ivory. AND......damage to the cue is not the responsibility of
CA Fish & Wildlife......they are not liable for any damages under the law even if the ivory turned out to be all legal, pre-ban ivory......I got that straight from my
local Assemblyman's legal staff. Otherwise, the cost of enforcement could become prohibitively expensive that undermines the intent and overall purpose of
the regulation. CA Fish & Wildlife is indemnified under the law for testing the ivory in any article if proper documentation evidencing its legality is not available.

A photo is worth a thousand words......the below is why I follow the ivory ban so closely.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 04:21 PM
@bavafongoul

So we will not be charged with bringing ivory across state lines?

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 04:36 PM
@bavafongoul

So we will not be charged with bringing ivory across state lines?

I don't think anybody will know anything specific until the case involving Ernie is settled.

The AZB keyboard lawyers are all speculating and Ernie's case will set the precedent for things to come.

I'm not "into" fancy cues with lots of ornamentation and ivory. The only cues I've ever owned that had ivory were two that Richard Black made for me and they only had ivory ferrules and I no longer have them.

To me, it matters not one way or another...none of my cues have ivory. I think cue makers who have "legal" ivory should be allowed to make and sell their cues until their ivory stock is depleted, but what I think isn't going to matter.

There are plenty of substances that can be used for ornamentation that will substitute for ivory. I think ivory ferrules and joints make a cue play "differently", but I wouldn't necessarily say "better".

mortuarymike-nv
07-29-2016, 04:42 PM
Our Government is hell bent to make everyone a criminal ....
800.000 new laws last years .
We are looking at cutting down a forest just to print these new laws on .
Our government is out to take our guns and any excuse works ...


Its a police state ........ welcome to modern day Germany ...

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 04:42 PM
Ernie turned himself in......you only do that when you know there's a problem.

Dom.....ownership and transportation within the USA is fine......that's 100% certainty.
All of the regs clearly specify that......Defacto enactment just like the Prohibition law.
The US Constitution states that all Ex Post Facto laws are unconstitutional & illegal.

Yes, you can own & carry ivory pool cues in the USA......just be careful where you buy or sell them.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 04:48 PM
Ernie turned himself in......you only do that when you know there's a problem.

Dom.....ownership and transportation within the USA is fine......that's 100% certainty.
All of the regs clearly specify that......Defacto enactment just like the Prohibition law.
The US Constitution states that all Ex Post Facto laws are unconstitutional & illegal.

Yes, you can own & carry ivory pool cues in the USA......just be careful where you buy or sell them.

Last time I checked, Hawaii was in the USA.

What states can I "legally" buy a cue from and have it shipped to Hawaii? I figure CA isn't one.

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 04:53 PM
If Ernie sold the cues to the two people that tried smuggling the cues out of the USA,
and either sale happened after June 30, 2016, he is busted......there is no wiggle room.
If the cues were picked up at his shop after June 30th, he is busted.....no wiggle room.

The details of this still aren't known yet but this does not look good for cue-making or Ernie.
I do hope he sold the cues properly and is being erroneously charged and ultimately cleared.
Meanwhile, treat this as a warning sign if you happen to be a California cue-maker or a
cue-maker building a cue that uses ivory and your customer lives in CA.....you have a real problem.



Matt B.

Bob Jewett
07-29-2016, 04:56 PM
Here is a quote from a San Jose Mercury News article. More info is easy to find on-line. Bottom line: do not sell or buy ivory of any kind including mammoth (fossil) and rhino ivory in California. The age does not matter. The source does not matter. The amount does not matter. No ivory.

SACRAMENTO -- Handing a victory to wildlife and conservation groups and a defeat to Chinatown shopkeepers in San Francisco and Los Angeles, Gov. Jerry Brown on Sunday signed legislation banning the sales of virtually all elephant ivory.

Assembly Bill 96, by Assembly Speaker Toni Atkins, D-San Diego, will make it illegal after July 1 for anyone to sell nearly any kind of elephant ivory or rhino horn in California, including that in antique guns and chess sets, whether at a store or from a private collection ...

I've got maybe 10 ivory billiard/pool balls and I'm not sure what I can do with them. I guess they'll stay in their boxes.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 04:57 PM
Interesting bava.

Looks like I will buy a ivory cue for a friend out of state as a 'gift'. Have cue maker send to him.

My friend is a gracious friend and would not accept something of this value.

So he returns it to me and sends i to my house.




Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums mobile app

Fast Lenny
07-29-2016, 04:58 PM
I have a feeling since the law is relatively new that he will be made an example of unfortunately for him.

cueaddicts
07-29-2016, 04:59 PM
I see a lot of speculation about CA. Apparently, this happened before and has zero to do with the new CA ivory ban. It is federal. Here's the press release. https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/north-hollywood-pool-cue-maker-charged-helping-smuggle-elephant-ivory

There is very limited knowledge on the actual facts. Let's all give this time to play out, folks, and not run too wild with the theories.

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 05:01 PM
Last time I checked, Hawaii was in the USA.
What states can I "legally" buy a cue from and have it shipped to Hawaii? I figure CA isn't one.




Your own state of Hawaii........Ivory will be banned starting in 2017.


Gov. David Ige quietly signed into law Senate Bill 2647, now Act 125, effectively banning the sale of ivory and other products from a variety of animal and marine species.

Inga Gibson, Hawaii senior state director for the Humane Society of the United States, told The Huffington Post that she and other supporters are thrilled with the outcome.

“We’re looking at one of the strongest anti-wildlife trafficking bills in the country,” Gibson said.

The law takes effect immediately. Enforcement will be delayed until 2017 to allow time for those in possession of such products to lawfully dispose of them, according to a joint release from bill supporters. The law also provides exceptions for traditional cultural practices, as well as certain antiques, musical instruments, guns and knives.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 05:02 PM
Can this law be repealed if a conservative governor is elected?




Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums mobile app

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 05:03 PM
Ernie might have been caught by the Feds by the CA Fish & Wildlife still has a claim on him if he broke CA's law.........and CA will prosecute.
The head of Enforcement made it very clear there must be examples made to help "compel" compliance with the law which means "penalties".
A new law that is not vigorously enforced is a law that would only receive token compliance until people realize there's serious repercussions.
I believe that the ivory ban in CA reflects this belief and consequently, if you do get caught, do not expect or count on getting a lenient judge.

Repeal of the law has nothing to do with the Governor and the next one in CA will be Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom, very popular & also democrat.
It is controlled by the state legislature and committees so it does not look good. The sole hope is the lawsuit currently underway which could
take awhile. That's why I embarked on getting as many cues as I could before the ban started.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 05:10 PM
I think Ernie is screwed unless he can prove they are old ivory or sold before the effective date.

Also the value of it does not look good. These cues are totaling almost over 100k.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums mobile app

Hits 'em Hard
07-29-2016, 05:18 PM
No idea who the guy is but supposedly he is a huge player in the high end cue market but he was arrested on " smuggling " also. The guy from Taiwan is Chady Lui. Any of yall familiar with this guy?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=634

Pretty sure that's him right?

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 05:21 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=634



Pretty sure that's him right?


He probably spilled the beans on Ernie.

Sang like a canary.

dom_poppa
07-29-2016, 05:31 PM
I am imagining they told the authorities that Ernie builds them them and they resell them. Which sounds incriminating when asked why they have all these cues.

Something along the lines of they are mine and i'm a collector would be much better.

SJDinPHX
07-29-2016, 05:37 PM
....There is very limited knowledge of the actual facts. Let's all give this time to play out, folks, and not run too wild with the theories.

Certainly good advice cueaddict!...All industry ball mfgs. and cuemakers have known for years that the use of ivory, was becoming a slippery slope..It does appear that Ernie may be in for some expensive legal bills..However, based on what we know thus far, I find it hard to believe he will face any jail time, or even an excessively high $$$ fine.

A $10,000 appearance bond, is about as low as it can go..Jaywalkers may get higher!..Also, the worst lawyers in the world could find too many precedents and loopholes in the new laws, which would allow for plenty of wiggle room..I'm sure Ernie will have only the best representing him!

greyghost
07-29-2016, 06:49 PM
I got scolded today on Facebook....I said basically Ernie will probably be fine just a whipping boy at moment.


Ding dong said that elephants don't need to be killed for ivory. They shed their tusks!

Such brilliance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pogmothoin
07-29-2016, 06:49 PM
He should use the Hillary Clinton defense. Mens Rea.

They won't go after a woman who broke espionage laws, whether intentionally or not, but they go after a guy who sells stuff he legally owns. OUT OF CONTROL GOVERNMENT!

pwd72s
07-29-2016, 07:02 PM
Pre ban, Legal, 1000 year old, etc..it don't matter. In California as of the beginning of July you can't sell pretty much anything with ivory in it period. You can't ship anything with ivory out of nor into California either...

Same law is now in Oregon. Very happy that none of my cues have ivory.

Bavafongoul
07-29-2016, 07:09 PM
By next week, more will be known but cue-makers everywhere need to take heed....you can't sell or ship any new cues to anyone in CA if there is any ivory whatsoever.......period!

gregnice37
07-29-2016, 07:17 PM
Ive heard from a few people that if Trump is elected all the ivory laws go away. If true that would be nice because i love ivory cues. I dont need the cues to ne all decked out in ivory with design although i do like it, butt the playability of it in the joint & ferrules is a must for me.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 07:20 PM
Ive heard from a few people that if Trump is elected all the ivory laws go away. If true that would be nice because i love ivory cues. I dont need the cues to ne all decked out in ivory with design although i do like it, butt the playability of it in the joint & ferrules is a must for me.

If you can't play without ivory, you can't play...IMHO.

ghost ball
07-30-2016, 12:33 AM
Just by mentioning Ginacues puts the whole cue making world on notice.

Bavafongoul
07-30-2016, 02:36 AM
The only way the ivory ban could go away nationally is by enactment of a new Federal law saying it was legal to own and use ivory for any purpose as long as it was legal pre-ban ivory which there's plenty of.

That would lead to a battle of states rights and in turn, the matter would escalate through the Federal Court System all the way up to the Supreme Court, or certainly at least the Appellate level.

A President cannot, even through Executive Order, usurp any state law and effectively declare any law(s) to be null & void during their term of office. It requires passage of a new Federal statute.

Bank it
07-30-2016, 03:43 AM
Why doesn't fish & wildlife service worry about fish & wildlife in THIS country instead of persecuting someone over this. Kind of like when the gestapo raided Gibson guitars over Brazilian rosewood. Bunk

l82fish
07-30-2016, 05:17 AM
If anyone is interested for the CA law it is Fish and Game Code 2022

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fgc&group=01001-02000&file=2000-2022

Not a very difficult section to read through.

As others have pointed out this appears to be the feds (USFWS) case which is a different standard.

and to "Bank It"......the USFWS does deal with wildlife in this country but two of the main acts they enforce are the Endangered Species Act (which essentially implements CITES) and the Lacey Act. Both acts deal, in part, with enforcement of unlawfully taken foreign species. Most of the native wildlife enforcement is done by the state Fish and Wildlife agencies.

JoseV
07-30-2016, 06:21 AM
This is just horrible. Soon it will be politically incorrect to play with an ivory cue.

Players will now protest to tournament directors.

Tournaments will impose rules to disallow such items to be used.

I can see this happening.

Um ? didn't you already start a thread about this ? i take it you did not like the outcome of the comments you got ? So now your trying to stir the pot again ?

johnnysd
07-30-2016, 06:22 AM
I have heard that they have stated they are not going to go after the the one off purchase or sale of cues with small amounts of ivory such as ferrules or buying used cues.

However when I heard about the law I immediately thought if anyone was going to get in trouble it would be Ginacue.

He makes many cues that have TONS of ivory, and then to produce a bunch that were then exported that is just asking for trouble. And it seems if they were used in CA, even with that being illegal they may have not charged him with anything.

It just looks like an attempt to export ivory.

Now, I also know that Ernie would never do that and takes a ton of pride in his craftmanship and loves ivory, so there was never any intent. It is a silly law that will not save a single elephant. I am also not big on ivory in cues either. Juma pretty much accomplishes the same thing.

chefjeff
07-30-2016, 07:17 AM
If the goal is to stop penalize poachers and illegal traffickers, then this is an example of an ineffective law.

IF is the key word.

Jeff Livingston

Tony_in_MD
07-30-2016, 07:41 AM
Yes, to that point is anybody poaching Mastodons?

IF is the key word.

Jeff Livingston

chefjeff
07-30-2016, 07:45 AM
Yes, to that point is anybody poaching Mastodons?

Or cows.

A good question is: Why are there millions (billions?) of cows that are harvested and eaten everyday by billions of humans, yet elephants are going extinct?

There's a good answer to that (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tragedy+of+the+commons+elephants&t=ffab&ia=web) and it has to do with bad legislation.


Jeff Livingston

JoeyA
07-30-2016, 07:47 AM
If Ding Dong scolded you, you will survive.
JoeyA

I got scolded today on Facebook....I said basically Ernie will probably be fine just a whipping boy at moment.


Ding dong said that elephants don't need to be killed for ivory. They shed their tusks!

Such brilliance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tc in l a
07-30-2016, 10:32 AM
I've been to Ernie's shop several times recently, before and after the end of june and he shared some details about this. He also asked me not to talk about it but to quell the speculation i will clear up a few of the facts that have been mentioned here and in the news.

The sale in question occurred before the ban date.

Prior to the ban date he liquidated his ivory stock.

Prior to the ban date he finished all orders that would have contained any ivory and will no longer build any cues with ivory.

He does have legal representation.

He is a law abiding man, is concerned about the situation, had/has no intention of thumbing his nose at the authorities and would just like to clear his name and reputation and go on building cues (now without ivory) as he has for the last 50+ years.

He has always been patient, kind and informative to me and i wish him the best possible outcome.

Best to you all
Tony C

Bavafongoul
07-30-2016, 10:54 AM
Thanks Tony......it seems like the most likely scenario is the guys trying to take the cues out of the country got nailed. The country of destination could have been a participating treaty country on the ban of ivory.

So Ernie makes the cue in compliance with the CA law which he is subject to since he's in CA. The cues get completed before July 1, 2016 and these guys pick up the cues from Ernie after the ban. Now if the cues were paid in full and no additional money or payment of any form was involved subsequent to June 30, 2016, Ernie will be just fine. However, if there's payment of any form after June 30th which could be when the cues were picked up, Ernie broke the CA law & is guilty. However, it could be the cues were picked up before June 30th, and then Ernie is in the clear.

If Ernie did what Tony C. wrote, he should be alright but the law is straightforward and simple to understand. Anyone that is aware of the CA ivory ban and violates it, they deserve all the grief imaginable........it is a vanilla favored law.......plain and simple........NO IVORY SALES.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 11:01 AM
Ridiculous law.

JoeyInCali
07-30-2016, 11:06 AM
Thanks Tony......it seems like the most likely scenario is the guys trying to take the cues out of the country got nailed. The country of destination could have been a participating treaty country on the ban of ivory.

So Ernie makes the cue in compliance with the CA law which he is subject to since he's in CA. The cues get completed before July 1, 2016 and these guys pick up the cues from Ernie after the ban. Now if the cues were paid in full and no additional money or payment of any form was involved subsequent to June 30, 2016, Ernie will be just fine. However, if there's payment of any form after June 30th which could be when the cues were picked up, Ernie broke the CA law is is guilty. However, it could be the cues were picked up before June 30th, and then Ernie is in the clear.

If Ernie did what Tony C. wrote, he should be alright but the law is straightforward and simple to understand. Anyone that is aware of the CA ivory ban and violates it, they deserve all the grief imaginable........it is a vanilla favored law.......plain and simple........NO IVORY SALES.

Makes me wonder if Ernie can just open a Nevada corp and move his finished cues there .
Then the sale will be conducted there .

This freaking govt. is becoming the Nazi govt.
It's freaking sad .
The man built his business for 50 years complying with all the laws ( God freaking knows how stupid and mundane they are in Nazifornia and USA ), then he could be put out of business over using ivory that were legal before . Never mind the grand daddy or ex post facto, huh?

The US govt. has not been representing the people for decades already.
The big corporations and Wall Street run this country. It doesn't matter if the president is a dem or repub. JFK might have been the last non-corporate puppet. And for that, he was killed .

The govt. does not care if they export all the jobs and industries out of the country so long as the corporations make more money.
They couldn't care less if they kill all the little American industries ( knives, guns, cues, shoes, art, furniture, etc ).
So long as Wall Street , banks and big corporations are making money.

The next president is going to be another puppet. One has already been proven a traitor.

greyghost
07-30-2016, 11:09 AM
The only way the ivory ban could go away nationally is by enactment of a new Federal law saying it was legal to own and use ivory for any purpose as long as it was legal pre-ban ivory which there's plenty of.

That would lead to a battle of states rights and in turn, the matter would escalate through the Federal Court System all the way up to the Supreme Court, or certainly at least the Appellate level.

A President cannot, even through Executive Order, usurp any state law and effectively declare any law(s) to be null & void during their term of office. It requires passage of a new Federal statute.



They don't have to make laws. They can just get the Supreme Court to make a ruling.

They can also just blackmail the states basically like some were threatened with pulling fed funds for roads when particular states didn't want to raise the drinking age


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Walkermine
07-30-2016, 11:22 AM
Makes me wonder if Ernie can just open a Nevada corp and move his finished cues there .
Then the sale will be conducted there .

This freaking govt. is becoming the Nazi govt.
It's freaking sad .
The man built his business for 50 years complying with all the laws ( God freaking knows how stupid and mundane they are in Nazifornia and USA ), then he could be put out of business over using ivory that were legal before . Never mind the grand daddy or ex post facto, huh?

The US govt. have not been representing the people for decades already.
The big corporations and Wall Street run this country. It doesn't matter if the president is a dem or repub. JFK might have been the last non-corporate puppet. And for that, he was killed .

The govt. does not care if they export all the jobs and industries out of the country so long as the corporations make more money.
They couldn't care less if they kill all the little American industries ( knives, guns, cues, shoes, art, furniture, etc ).
So long as Wall Street , banks and big corporations are making money.

The next president is going to be another puppet. One has already been proven a traitor.

Yep. We live in a country where the right to burn or desecrate the American flag is protected by law, but, sell or ship a cue with an ivory inlay and you will be dealt with severely. We have come so far.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 11:32 AM
It's not like they were bringing tusks through customs. These were legitimate work of arts.

Mr. Bond
07-30-2016, 11:33 AM
They don't have to make laws. They can just get the Supreme Court to make a ruling.

They can also just blackmail the states basically like some were threatened with pulling fed funds for roads when particular states didn't want to raise the drinking age


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Omg you remember that? I talk to people about it and they think I'm full of shit.
Those bastards forced Texas to raise the age shortly before my birthday. I was pissed.

Walkermine
07-30-2016, 11:42 AM
Just yesterday I was contacted by another collector about a cue he was finally willing to sell. It happened to be a cue I've coveted for some time but until now, it had not been offered to anyone. The cue has ivory, not a lot, and I know that the ivory was obtained legally years ago and was from a tusk taken by a hunter in 1962. Even so, I had to inform the guy that it was now impossible given that I live in California and the risk too much a pain in the ass to deal with.

Paul

franko
07-30-2016, 11:56 AM
Makes me wonder if Ernie can just open a Nevada corp and move his finished cues there .
Then the sale will be conducted there .

This freaking govt. is becoming the Nazi govt.
It's freaking sad .
The man built his business for 50 years complying with all the laws ( God freaking knows how stupid and mundane they are in Nazifornia and USA ), then he could be put out of business over using ivory that were legal before . Never mind the grand daddy or ex post facto, huh?

The US govt. has not been representing the people for decades already.
The big corporations and Wall Street run this country. It doesn't matter if the president is a dem or repub. JFK might have been the last non-corporate puppet. And for that, he was killed .

The govt. does not care if they export all the jobs and industries out of the country so long as the corporations make more money.
They couldn't care less if they kill all the little American industries ( knives, guns, cues, shoes, art, furniture, etc ).
So long as Wall Street , banks and big corporations are making money.

The next president is going to be another puppet. One has already been proven a traitor.

This administration also tortured and heavily fined Gibson Guitar one of the oldest companies in America.

tc in l a
07-30-2016, 12:22 PM
Thanks Tony......it seems like the most likely scenario is the guys trying to take the cues out of the country got nailed. The country of destination could have been a participating treaty country on the ban of ivory.

So Ernie makes the cue in compliance with the CA law which he is subject to since he's in CA. The cues get completed before July 1, 2016 and these guys pick up the cues from Ernie after the ban. Now if the cues were paid in full and no additional money or payment of any form was involved subsequent to June 30, 2016, Ernie will be just fine. However, if there's payment of any form after June 30th which could be when the cues were picked up, Ernie broke the CA law is is guilty. However, it could be the cues were picked up before June 30th, and then Ernie is in the clear.

If Ernie did what Tony C. wrote, he should be alright but the law is straightforward and simple to understand. Anyone that is aware of the CA ivory ban and violates it, they deserve all the grief imaginable........it is a vanilla favored law.......plain and simple........NO IVORY SALES.
The entire situation/transaction occurred and was completed BEFORE june 30.

I was at Ernie's before june 30th when he shared this with me.

Although i prefer not to speculate i think this may be related to the attempted export of the cues. THIS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART, NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE. THERE WOULD BE NO OTHER REASON SINCE IT WAS DONE DONE DONE BEFORE JUNE 30.

shadowmoss
07-30-2016, 12:49 PM
Makes me wonder if Ernie can just open a Nevada corp and move his finished cues there .
Then the sale will be conducted there .

This freaking govt. is becoming the Nazi govt.
It's freaking sad .
The man built his business for 50 years complying with all the laws ( God freaking knows how stupid and mundane they are in Nazifornia and USA ), then he could be put out of business over using ivory that were legal before . Never mind the grand daddy or ex post facto, huh?

The US govt. has not been representing the people for decades already.
The big corporations and Wall Street run this country. It doesn't matter if the president is a dem or repub. JFK might have been the last non-corporate puppet. And for that, he was killed .

The govt. does not care if they export all the jobs and industries out of the country so long as the corporations make more money.
They couldn't care less if they kill all the little American industries ( knives, guns, cues, shoes, art, furniture, etc ).
So long as Wall Street , banks and big corporations are making money.

The next president is going to be another puppet. One has already been proven a traitor.

Same opinion I have. Very well said and true. Funny how this is all about protecting something that's not in this country or extinct (mastodon ivory) and the government still allows us to legally hunt elephants. What scum government officials are, including all the ones reading this thread go look in the mirror.

ShootingArts
07-30-2016, 02:13 PM
The entire situation/transaction occurred and was completed BEFORE june 30.

I was at Ernie's before june 30th when he shared this with me.

Although i prefer not to speculate i think this may be related to the attempted export of the cues. THIS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART, NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE. THERE WOULD BE NO OTHER REASON SINCE IT WAS DONE DONE DONE BEFORE JUNE 30.



According to the AP story I read this has zero, nada, nothing, to do with the california law. Movement of ivory between countries that are CITE signees is illegal barring a few exceptions. The people trying to transport to Taiwan were the primary offenders, the fed's charged Ernie with aiding and abetting by selling them the cues with ivory in them.

My guess is that they are claiming that Ernie had foreknowledge that the cues were to be shipped out of the country. Somewhere along the line there has to be some evidence that Ernie knew the intention was to violate the law when he sold them the cues. Even then I have never heard of "aiding and abetting" being a crime.

Not that it seems likely to stop this freight train but again, california law seems to have nothing to do with these charges.

Hu

Fast Lenny
07-30-2016, 02:20 PM
I take it we are allowed to still fly or travel to other states with cues that have ivory in them for personal use or is that a no no?

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 02:27 PM
I take it we are allowed to still fly or travel to other states with cues that have ivory in them for personal use or is that a no no?


Scary to even think about this.

They will probably confiscate it.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 02:28 PM
According to the AP story I read this has zero, nada, nothing, to do with the california law. Movement of ivory between countries that are CITE signees is illegal barring a few exceptions. The people trying to transport to Taiwan were the primary offenders, the fed's charged Ernie with aiding and abetting by selling them the cues with ivory in them.



My guess is that they are claiming that Ernie had foreknowledge that the cues were to be shipped out of the country. Somewhere along the line there has to be some evidence that Ernie knew the intention was to violate the law when he sold them the cues. Even then I have never heard of "aiding and abetting" being a crime.



Not that it seems likely to stop this freight train but again, california law seems to have nothing to do with these charges.



Hu


Yea. He had to know so that is a crime.

pt109
07-30-2016, 02:43 PM
Yea. He had to know so that is a crime.

Lotta Chinese-hyphenated-Americans....the law can't pre-judge what Ernie knows.

....I say he beats the beef.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 02:44 PM
So Ginacue owners embracing a rise in value with the possibility of Ernie going to jail.

greyghost
07-30-2016, 03:03 PM
Omg you remember that? I talk to people about it and they think I'm full of shit.

Those bastards forced Texas to raise the age shortly before my birthday. I was pissed.



No lol I'm only 32. But I have heard the story from too many people growing up in Louisiana.

Not like it stopped me from drinking at a bar at 18 though lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

smashmouth
07-30-2016, 03:12 PM
I think Ernie is screwed unless he can prove they are old ivory or sold before the effective date.

Also the value of it does not look good. These cues are totaling almost over 100k.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums mobile app

this
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Bavafongoul
07-30-2016, 03:24 PM
Joey.....I addressed that consideration several weeks ago. As long as the cue-maker has any residency whatsoever, even if he incorporated out of Delaware, the CA ban still obligates him into compliance. It was anticipated when the law was drafted that people might partner with someone out of state or open a shill office in another state or actually open a shop in another state. The cue-maker cannot do any business in CA whatsoever involving the use of ivory even through a subsidiary in another state.......basically, the cue-maker has to relocate.......the law contemplated all of the likely dodges for using ivory. CA cue-makers have to move...relocate to another state if they want to use ivory in their pool cues. There is no other way around the CA ivory ban at the present.

jimmyg
07-30-2016, 04:56 PM
Lotta Chinese-hyphenated-Americans....the law can't pre-judge what Ernie knows.

....I say he beats the beef.

In law the term is: "knew or should have known", both are treated the same.

HawaiianEye
07-30-2016, 06:20 PM
Lotta Chinese-hyphenated-Americans....the law can't pre-judge what Ernie knows.

....I say he beats the beef.

If the government wants to know, they will know....one way or another.

I'm quite sure that nobody orders cues worth that much without leaving behind a paper trail and phone call trail.

I don't think the "all Chinese look alike" defense is going to work.

smashmouth
07-30-2016, 06:40 PM
what if the cue maker knowlingly participated an aiding a crime and figured **** it, I'll take my chances and take the cash?

in other words, what if he's guilty as **** despite the claims here to his sainthood ?

Kid Dynomite
07-30-2016, 06:49 PM
what if the cue maker knowlingly participated an aiding a crime and figured **** it, I'll take my chances and take the cash?

in other words, what if he's guilty as **** despite the claims here to his sainthood ?
Then every cue maker is guilty if they ever had foreign customers!

In essence, they are saying that the cue maker has to anticipate what the customer plans to do and go!!!

A huge burden and unrealistic!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

classiccues
07-30-2016, 07:15 PM
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/stories/minnesota-dealer-pleads-guilty-in-ivory-case/5819

Am I reading this one right??? It went from a few hundred to 40-95k worth of ivory? Is that sensationalism?

JV

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 07:17 PM
Then every cue maker is guilty if they ever had foreign customers!

In essence, they are saying that the cue maker has to anticipate what the customer plans to do and go!!!

A huge burden and unrealistic!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


Well look at the FOR SALE section. Sellers don't list disclaimers stating no sale to states that banned ivory commerce and selling out of the country.

I don't care as long as I make money mentality. 85k? Ernie is jumping on that.

You're going to tell me 85k worth of cues and he is not curious as to where they are going?

Its not like this is a high volume business. They know all their customers.

classiccues
07-30-2016, 07:21 PM
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000209527/demand-for-ivory-by-china-threatens-africa-s-elephants

As I have stated in every ivory thread ever posted... the demand in Asia is on the rise..

JV

classiccues
07-30-2016, 07:24 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug-bandow/when-ideologues-take-over_b_5547309.html

Best article written on the subject....

JV

CJH
07-30-2016, 07:30 PM
You're going to tell me 85k worth of cues and he is not curious as to where they are going?Its not like this is a high volume business. They know all their customers.

Nobody ever asked me what I was going to do with a cue when I bought it. They have no idea and I would tell them its none of there business. Now, they may know with some high profile customers but certainly not everyone. I know of several cue makers that sold to Asian guys where the cue makers side of the transaction took place at his shop or other domestic location. Of course I'm sure they view things differently now since July 1st.

Scott Lee
07-30-2016, 07:37 PM
I agree...that's the best article on the subject, and should hopefully help in leniency for Ernie.:thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

pt109
07-30-2016, 08:08 PM
In law the term is: "knew or should have known", both are treated the same.

If the government wants to know, they will know....one way or another.

I'm quite sure that nobody orders cues worth that much without leaving behind a paper trail and phone call trail.

I don't think the "all Chinese look alike" defense is going to work.

If a man buys a gun and takes it to a place where it's against the law to have a gun.....
....is the business that sold the gun liable?

JC
07-30-2016, 08:16 PM
In law the term is: "knew or should have known", both are treated the same.

Not since Comey set a new precedence on that one.

JC

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 08:44 PM
If a man buys a gun and takes it to a place where it's against the law to have a gun.....
....is the business that sold the gun liable?

Yes the business is liable if they sold 85k worth of guns without at least finding out where they were going.

Anyways, a highly illegal contraband to most of the world, a very close deadline of July 1, and the builder gets popped in the same month.

mortuarymike-nv
07-30-2016, 08:45 PM
]Well look at the FOR SALE section. Sellers don't list disclaimers stating no sale to states that banned ivory commerce and selling out of the country[/COLOR].

I don't care as long as I make money mentality. 85k? Ernie is jumping on that.

You're going to tell me 85k worth of cues and he is not curious as to where they are going?

Its not like this is a high volume business. They know all their customers.



Talking out your neck again .
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=258291

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 08:53 PM
Nobody ever asked me what I was going to do with a cue when I bought it. They have no idea and I would tell them its none of there business. Now, they may know with some high profile customers but certainly not everyone. I know of several cue makers that sold to Asian guys where the cue makers side of the transaction took place at his shop or other domestic location. Of course I'm sure they view things differently now since July 1st.


You're right it's nobody's business but at the same time you have to know where 85k worth of stuff that are deemed illegal in some parts of the world is going.

I am positive he knew where it was going.

Cue makers have a sixth sense when it comes to buyers. Someone buying that many cues from a guy, not a high volume production, has to know.

Cue makers like to know whether someone is a dealer or actual customers too.

Not everday you have a 85k sale unless to a dealer.

NYC cue dude
07-30-2016, 08:56 PM
I know both Ernie and Chady. Both are gentlemen, in my book. I have owned and played with several Ginacues for 15 years, and my current cue, for the last 10 years is my beloved GC. My cue does contain ivory.

I feel just terrible for Ernie. He's always been a "buy the book" guy so this news both surprises and saddens me. As Tony mentioned, I sure hope he was accurate in that his paperwork was in order and that the transaction took place prior to the ban. Still, I'm concerned that if it is the case, under what grounds do the Feds think they have a case? There could be more to this. Or maybe this is just the govt taking a stab in the dark by issuing arrest warrants to force the cuemaker to produce the paperwork. I suppose they have no way of knowing if the ivory is pre ban until we get to this point. If Chady and his partner were arrested for "possession", they surely didn't have copies of Ernie's paperwork. I know as a tax paying citizen, I'd want investigators coming to my shop to see the paperwork before escalating the issue to where we are.

Edit: perhaps the charges pertain to a premeditated attempt to export the ivory (legal in the US) to another country, or to a country where it's prohibited. Perhaps just the attempt at any export is illegal. And maybe Chady, or someone else involved, turned over damaging emails.

Moet.1977
07-30-2016, 08:58 PM
Yes the business is liable if they sold 85k worth of guns without at least finding out where they were going.

Anyways, a highly illegal contraband to most of the world, a very close deadline of July 1, and the builder gets popped in the same month.

Dom y do u even give a shit u don't even own custom cues or ivory, u have a players cue.
An I'm willing to bet you'll never buy a custom cue.

NYC cue dude
07-30-2016, 09:00 PM
You're right it's nobody's business but at the same time you have to know where 85k worth of stuff that are deemed illegal in some parts of the world is going.

I am positive he knew where it was going.

Cue makers have a sixth sense when it comes to buyers. Someone buying that many cues from a guy, not a high volume production, has to know.

Cue makers like to know whether someone is a dealer or actual customers too.

Not everday you have a 85k sale unless to a dealer.

Ernie knows chady well, fwiw.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 09:04 PM
Ernie knows chady well, fwiw.


That is not good that they know each other very well.

It is damaging.

dom_poppa
07-30-2016, 09:06 PM
Dom y do u even give a shit u don't even own custom cues or ivory, u have a players cue.

An I'm willing to bet you'll never buy a custom cue.


I'm interested because this case will set a precedent towards ivory cues.

Whatever the outcome, we will learn from this.

CJH
07-30-2016, 10:27 PM
I'm interested because this case will set a precedent towards ivory cues.

Whatever the outcome, we will learn from this.

This case won't set a precedent for anything. This case is about exporting cues with Ivory inlays/components. This is already illegal. What we will learn from this is whether Ernie conspired to export the cues. He is not the first US citizen to be charged in a case involving the import or export of Ivory.

You come across like you are out for Ernie's blood. Backing off would serve you well....

j2pac
07-30-2016, 10:43 PM
Yes the business is liable if they sold 85k worth of guns without at least finding out where they were going.

Anyways, a highly illegal contraband to most of the world, a very close deadline of July 1, and the builder gets popped in the same month.

Since when have the Democrats ever cared about law enforcement? Too bad Kate Steinle wasn't an elephant, she would have apparently warranted much more consideration by Harry Reid, and the rest of his ilk. This whole thing is the height of hypocrisy in my opinion. The entire state of Kalifornia, is in violation of federal immigration law/s everytime one of their "sanctuary" cities decides not to cooperate with ICE, and protects an ILLEGAL aggravated felon...Many of whom have defied deportation on multiple occasions, and committed any number of crimes, while on U.S. soil! Apparently no one informed the Demo's that enforcing the laws of the land, and protecting U.S. citizens might actually be at least as important as worrying about ivory trade. As a matter of fact, I believe one of these scenarios is actually one of their constitutional duties, and it's not the one that has anything to do with worrying about Ginacue.
What a crock.
j2

jimmyg
07-30-2016, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
In law the term is: "knew or should have known", both are treated the same.

If a man buys a gun and takes it to a place where it's against the law to have a gun.....
....is the business that sold the gun liable?

Sorry, it's not nearly as simple as my blanket statement suggested. I was thinking mainly of tort and product liability cases, not necessarily criminal. :o

Off the cuff, I would generally say "no" to your question, but it would be more likely to be dependent upon too many individual factors, including whether or not the seller followed state and federal laws involving the sale of firearms and/or had prior knowledge or involvement in the actual crime committed, for anyone to answer intelligently, especially someone like me who is unfamiliar with this area of law.

pt109
07-30-2016, 11:13 PM
Since when have the Democrats ever cared about law enforcement? Too bad Kate Steinle wasn't an elephant, she would have apparently warranted much more consideration by Harry Reid, and the rest of his ilk. This whole thing is the height of hypocrisy in my opinion. The entire state of Kalifornia, is in violation of federal immigration law/s everytime one of their "sanctuary" cities decides not to cooperate with ICE, and protects an ILLEGAL aggravated felon...Many of whom have defied deportation on multiple occasions, and committed any number of crimes, while on U.S. soil! Apparently no one informed the Demo's that enforcing the laws of the land, and protecting U.S. citizens might actually be at least as important as worrying about ivory trade. As a matter of fact, I believe one of these scenarios is actually one of their constitutional duties, and it's not the one that has anything to do with worrying about Ginacue.
What a crock.
j2
Good post, IMO....this thinking comes from the same culture that will walk past a starving
child to save a seal....they should google priority.
Sorry, it's not nearly as simple as my blanket statement suggests. I was thinking mainly of tort and product liability cases, not necessarily criminal. :o

Off the cuff, I would generally say "no" to your question, but it would be more likely to be dependent upon too many individual factors, including whether or not the seller followed state and federal laws involving the sale of firearms and/or had prior knowledge or involvement in the actual crime committed, for anyone to answer intelligently, especially someone like me who is unfamiliar with this area of law.

Yeah, I know it gets complicated....you can't beat a speeding ticket because you didn't know the speed limit.
Some people around me tonight were saying if the ivory was bought legally,,,there should
be no problem....but it's not that easy either...if you have an old stock of lead-based paint...
...I got no problem with it being illegal to sell it.

But IVORY?????...what the hell...these morons will eventually make everybody a vegan.
....then we'll be neck-deep in animals that we used to devour.

pt....cheering for Ernie

Moet.1977
07-30-2016, 11:40 PM
Yes the business is liable if they sold 85k worth of guns without at least finding out where they were going.

Anyways, a highly illegal contraband to most of the world, a very close deadline of July 1, and the builder gets popped in the same month.

I'm interested because this case will set a precedent towards ivory cues.

Whatever the outcome, we will learn from this.

Fair enough I can't very knock anyone if their trying to learn something, I apologize
for that statement.

dom_poppa
07-31-2016, 01:40 AM
The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

CJH
07-31-2016, 04:21 AM
The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

These guys have to scrape out a living which is not easy to do making custom pool cues.
I know of one well known cue maker that lives basically month to month. I know of another one that had to take on a full time job to make ends meat so now he puts out fewer cues each year. But lets consider Black Boar since you mentioned them. Tony puts out 10 cues per year now but for arguments sake, lets call it 12. And lets say he makes 5 collectables which he will sell for $25k each and 7 blackwood player cues which he will sell for on average of $8K each. His total revenue mentioned here is $181,000. Lets say I have underestimated this and call it $300,000 off the sale of 12 cues (I know he does not make more than 12). From $300k he has to cover himself and Donnie plus all expenses which includes the shop, materials, machinery, etc. Get the picture?
If he makes a few extra bucks through his relationship with a dealer, all the power to him. Why shouldn't he?

Pangit
07-31-2016, 05:07 AM
I have warned for years that it is a crapshoot playing games with customs shipping cues with ivory or toting them in and out the country. Now Ernie has gotten nailed with something he may not have realized was even a crime, he sold to someone who turned around and exported the cues or cue pieces with ivory. The sentence isn't a small one, potentially ten years, and with Ginicue's high profile they may well make an example out of him. Doing any time at all will absolutely suck in your late seventies!

If you are going to own ivory and move it across borders be very sure you know the laws and have proper documentation. In this case Ernie Gutierrez just sold to someone who then broke the law. Apparently, customs is claiming foreknowledge or something.

Pool makes international news, as usual it is with a black eye.

Hu

"Seventy-five-year-old Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez surrendered Thursday. He's accused of aiding and abetting illegal exportation - which can carry a 10-year prison term."

I find it a paradox that anyone would hope that Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez was selling $85,000 worth of cue parts with "Fake Ivory" bits and pieces. Wouldn't that soil his good name as a high end cue maker?

classiccues
07-31-2016, 05:59 AM
This is absolute bunk...

Do you know when Chady ordered the cues? Do you know how long he waited for them? Do you know if these were Gina's 50th anniversary cues that were being made, (50) so they WOULD be available to anyone that wanted to by them?

Do you know Ernie doesn't normally discount? That means dealers pay RETAIL, just like you or anyone else.

Dealers do not drive up demand by buying I'm "bulk", they normally get on the list like everyone else. However since the dealer probably helped the guy get a name to begin with, by buying the makers cue when the maker was a NOBODY, that entitles him to whatever deal there is between the two parties. Its funny that no one *****es when the cuemaker is unknown and they could have gotten a cue in a few months, but then we he gets a name and they have to get on a 3-5 year list, its a "dealers" fault.

When someone INVESTS time and money into something, and there is a payoff, you cannot cry about it.

You can however look in a mirror and say.. wow if I wasn't such a cheap ass, I could have that guys cues in a year and not 4.

JV

The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

dom_poppa
07-31-2016, 06:15 AM
These guys have to scrape out a living which is not easy to do making custom pool cues.

I know of one well known cue maker that lives basically month to month. I know of another one that had to take on a full time job to make ends meat so now he puts out fewer cues each year. But lets consider Black Boar since you mentioned them. Tony puts out 10 cues per year now but for arguments sake, lets call it 12. And lets say he makes 5 collectables which he will sell for $25k each and 7 blackwood player cues which he will sell for on average of $8K each. His total revenue mentioned here is $181,000. Lets say I have underestimated this and call it $300,000 off the sale of 12 cues (I know he does not make more than 12). From $300k he has to cover himself and Donnie plus all expenses which includes the shop, materials, machinery, etc. Get the picture?

If he makes a few extra bucks through his relationship with a dealer, all the power to him. Why shouldn't he?


Not saying cue makers shouldn't make a living.

My point and example relates to Ginacue knowing where the cues were going since many have a personal relationship with their dealers. You sort of made my point for me.


Also, there was a cue maker here, I won't mention his name, was accused of 'pumping and dumping' by members here. He stated a waiting list for his cues. His buddy sold his cues brand new 5 to 10 at a time for higher price than what you would get from said maker. Cues were listed as current model and brand new.

I get it...its what consumers want to pay but lets not act like its an ethical business model.

SUPERSTAR
07-31-2016, 06:32 AM
Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.


Black Boar has a wait list? Really?
How can he have a wait list if he gets you your cue that you ordered in like 6 months?
Tony has always been a very straight forward person.
You buy a cue, he makes you a cue, you go on your way.
There has never been any waiting a decade or so, for one of his cues.

As for the dealers, i guess you weren't at SBE talking to him and listening to him get pumped up and angry when talking about dealers trying to cash in on his work, and how he would rather go room to room, and put cues in players hands personally, just to cut the dealers out.

You'd do best not lump all cuemakers together.
There are some scumbags for sure, but not all are.

dom_poppa
07-31-2016, 06:39 AM
Black Boar has a wait list? Really?

How can he have a wait list if he gets you your cue that you ordered in like 6 months?

Tony has always been a very straight forward person.

You buy a cue, he makes you a cue, you go on your way.

There has never been any waiting a decade or so, for one of his cues.



As for the dealers, i guess you weren't at SBE talking to him and listening to him get pumped up and angry when talking about dealers trying to cash in on his work, and how he would rather go room to room, and put cues in players hands personally, just to cut the dealers out.



You'd do best not lump all cuemakers together.

There are some scumbags for sure, but not all are.


Ok. You're right.

I was just using them as a vague example. He does great work and one of the best. It can be argued that he is the best.

..but i hope you understand the point i was trying to make.

SUPERSTAR
07-31-2016, 06:54 AM
Ok. You're right.

I was just using them as a vague example. He does great work and one of the best. It can be argued that he is the best.

..but i hope you understand the point i was trying to make.

Oh I do understand.
You just happened to use the wrong guy as an example. LOL

You would have been better off talking about SouthWest or Tascarella, where they take forever, and in some cases, put their mistakes off on the customer when they don't deliver what was ordered, and the customer is stuck figuring out whether to accept something they didn't want, or refuse it and let their total cue time to be 20 years.

Then, you can blab about dealers all you want.
But Tony?
He has the quickest time for delivery out of anyone, AND he commands high prices.
More cuemakers should emulate him.
I think they just get all caught up in the glory of the wait time mystique, and it affords them the ability to shaft the customer in the case they happen to be lazy.
Plus, how many guys croak while waiting and they just pocket the deposit?
I wonder

ShootingArts
07-31-2016, 07:22 AM
I find it a paradox that anyone would hope that Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez was selling $85,000 worth of cue parts with "Fake Ivory" bits and pieces. Wouldn't that soil his good name as a high end cue maker?


Does "synthetic ivory" sound better? Nothing wrong with using "fake" "synthetic" "false" "faux" ivory as long is it is made plain to the customer that is what is being used. Customs seized a cue in the past and held it for several years because it contained fake ivory. My thought was that the customs people wouldn't know one from the other without testing, maybe even after a field test which is just pressing a hot wire to it the last I knew. Damages the cue, and has to be done to every item. The item is judged by the way it smells burning and the finish is part of that smell. Seems likely that mistakes could be made with such a crude test.

Synthetic ivory has grain and texture, it is far more than white plastic. The last I bought was ten years ago and was thirty dollars a foot for joint material then buying bulk. I prefer the synthetic ivory because of far better consistency than real ivory and the slightly offwhite color and texture makes it an excellent stand in for ivory. No possible issues other than mistaken identity, looks good, the only thing it lacks in my opinion is snob appeal.

Some may be sold on the hit of ivory but particularly once beyond the ferrule I doubt they can tell the difference between the hit of ivory and false ivory in blind testing.

The whole pool cue ivory thing is BS. The ivory in one tusk is more than typical cue builders use in a lifetime. Unless a cue builder uses a lot of ivory joints and buttcaps one tusk would supply a half dozen builders or more for a lifetime. Also, ivory that is less than decades old is worthless for cue building. The tiny amount of ivory brought to the US these days are legal trophies from kills by elephant hunters. Almost every crumb of illegal ivory that leaves Africa goes to Asia.

What is in play here is a crazy regulation passed in the CITES treaties making it illegal to move legal ivory between CITES signees. "Legal ivory" is converted to "illegal ivory" by virtue of crossing a border! Best I recall there are over two hundred countries that are signees of the CITES treaties so if you move ivory across a border you have pretty surely made it illegal ivory barring small exceptions and with proper documentation.

It seems that there has been a modification I am not familiar with and this may make this case unravel, the value of the ivory is a consideration now. While there might have been 75,000-85,000 worth of cues attempted to be exported the value of the ivory is small. Per cue I think it is likely to be under the small amounts limit. If there are no ivory joints and buttcaps the whole shipment may be under the limit. This is getting into intricacies of the law I don't claim to understand but may help Ernie.

Hu

ShootingArts
07-31-2016, 07:33 AM
This is absolute bunk...

Do you know when Chady ordered the cues? Do you know how long he waited for them? Do you know if these were Gina's 50th anniversary cues that were being made, (50) so they WOULD be available to anyone that wanted to by them?

Do you know Ernie doesn't normally discount? That means dealers pay RETAIL, just like you or anyone else.

Dealers do not drive up demand by buying I'm "bulk", they normally get on the list like everyone else. However since the dealer probably helped the guy get a name to begin with, by buying the makers cue when the maker was a NOBODY, that entitles him to whatever deal there is between the two parties. Its funny that no one *****es when the cuemaker is unknown and they could have gotten a cue in a few months, but then we he gets a name and they have to get on a 3-5 year list, its a "dealers" fault.

When someone INVESTS time and money into something, and there is a payoff, you cannot cry about it.

You can however look in a mirror and say.. wow if I wasn't such a cheap ass, I could have that guys cues in a year and not 4.

JV


Something else you didn't mention, dealers often have standing orders or keep ordering more cues every few months. Something else with a waiting list, I waited almost a year for three rifle barrels. Some dealers get ten or fifteen barrels a month, every month. Standing orders so once they have waited their turn the first time, their new orders keep coming to the top of the list over and over as their wait time ends. Nothing unfair about that and it gives the barrel maker or cue builder a comfort zone knowing that he has so many sales every month that he can count on.

I don't think much of dealers or big players getting special consideration and jumping the line. That is rarely the case though. Usually a matter of dealers keeping standing orders of what they have demand for.

Hu

classiccues
07-31-2016, 07:51 AM
Also very true.. I am just a little sick of hearing its the dealers fault when something happens. We plunk down our money like everyone else, and some times before the cuemaker is established. When the cue market was flying it had nothing to do with dealers, and having the ability to test a cue before you buy or anything like that, but when the market is south, or you can't get a cue from a maker, its all the dealers fault. Really? Because dealers actually know the score.. dealers get bumped just like you do. When some well to do buyer comes along, usually introduced to the cuemaker by the dealer, the dealer gets tossed aside like yesterdays trash. It happens to us, just like YOU. I won't mention any names, but I know it happens, and it has happened not just to us. This is a risk that all dealers know going in, I just want to emphasize that its not all sunshine and unicorns.

Back to the ivory at hand.... this is a headline that even made capecod.com, so this will be circulated through all the wild life sites pretty quickly so they can show that something has been done. If Ernie gets off, then they are going to cry foul and your going to see an Elephant Lives Matter movement, if I had to guess...

JV

Something else you didn't mention, dealers often have standing orders or keep ordering more cues every few months. Something else with a waiting list, I waited almost a year for three rifle barrels. Some dealers get ten or fifteen barrels a month, every month. Standing orders so once they have waited their turn the first time, their new orders keep coming to the top of the list over and over as their wait time ends. Nothing unfair about that and it gives the barrel maker or cue builder a comfort zone knowing that he has so many sales every month that he can count on.

I don't think much of dealers or big players getting special consideration and jumping the line. That is rarely the case though. Usually a matter of dealers keeping standing orders of what they have demand for.

Hu

BmoreMoney
07-31-2016, 08:18 AM
As to what Ernie " should have " known - I am not making this a legal observation but rather a common sense one. I do know that most of the time the " law " does not follow the common sense route. There's plenty about this that we do not know, but what we do know - transaction occurred well before the July cut off. IMO, I don't think any reasonable people would expect a cue maker to definitively know where / what is going to happen to the cues he sells. I do believe it to be Ernie's responsibility to know and follow the laws in what state he operates in. I could even maybe see a case be made he should know US federal regs, but IN NO WAY would I think he should need to know the laws of whatever country his product MIGHT go to - especially considering he was not the one trying to ship anything out of the country. This is in response to someone's comment earlier that he should have known the law in xxxx country.

As to the size of the purchase and dealer purchases. Once again, he follows the laws of the state and country he is operating in so why should he be responsible for what SOMEONE ELSE does? Personal responsibility ? ??? Off topic but it was mentioned earlier in this thread : in regards to waiting lists and dealers that charge a premium for a cue makers cue. With some having LONG waiting lists what's wrong with someone who is WILLING to pay extra so they do not have to wait? Quite simple as far as I can see, if someone has the money and is not a tight ass and CHOOSES to pay whatever from a dealer to get the cue they want right now as opposed to having wait a year or more then so what? No one is forcing them to do anything and it is THEIR money. It's called business and it happens all the time in all walks of life. Couple examples : when a new limited edition, special edition car is announced and they are only gonna be making xxxx of them dealers start taking orders because by the time they finally hit the showrooms they are already sold. Dealerships will often sell them tens of thousands over sticker price. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? Simple supply and demand. Simply business.These things we are talking about are not staples, they are luxury items and you gotta pay to play to say. On a more day to day type example - flying. You can pay a surcharge and you get to get in an " express " security screening lane and cut your wait by 50%-75% or more. Anyone have a problem with that? Theme parks: you can buy the more expensive tickets / memberships and not have to wait in those rediculous lines with all those smelly folks. Problem there?

I'm fairly certain the only people that have a problem with dealers making money on a cue are the ones that can't / don't want to pay the extra money and are not looking at it for what it is - a convenience. We pay for conveniences just about every day. Such as on 95 around here we have an " express " lane where you can just fly right on by all those miles of stop and go rush hour traffic - for a couple bucks. Anyone think that is unfair or a bad idear ?

NYC cue dude
07-31-2016, 09:46 AM
Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.

bdorman
07-31-2016, 10:03 AM
Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.

Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

Bavafongoul
07-31-2016, 11:45 AM
Before this thread slides off the political cliff, let's make sure that that everyone keeps in mind ..........


Just because you are charged, or indicted. with a crime, it still remains a given that this has to be proven.


Until Ernie is actually found to be guilty, or overwhelming evidence is released convincing me otherwise,
he is completely innocent........he has a sterling record as a cue-maker and despite never having had the
pleasure of making his acquaintance, I view him to be a honest person so until the verdict comes in......
let's give this a rest about his innocence or guilt....debating the impact of the ban has more more merit or
what everyone can do to discourage or help defeat this abortion of a law from spreading even further.


In the meantime, what's the best cue show next year in Las Vegas? I have a EP cue that I'd sell if I could
locate the right Hercek cue and as you can tell, Ed has stopped making flat ivory joint cues & has abandoned
using ivory so perhaps the overall demand and interest in my cue will benefit. I sure hope so since the Hercek
design I'd want would have to use ivory and Joel's cue designs can become pretty expensive. In the meantime,
here's my EP cue & unless the CA ban is overturned or Ed moves, there will never be any more EP ivory cues.


Matt B.

Kid Dynomite
07-31-2016, 12:45 PM
Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.
He could argue that the contract was entered before the intent to export was disclosed !

So, emails and documents get trumped by the date of the verbal contract to build the cues.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

BmoreMoney
07-31-2016, 01:10 PM
Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

Couple things, as to the discovery that applies to the prosecution - defense don't have to turn over sheet , short of a specific court order. Second, it has already been said the Earnie himself said he liquidated his entire stock of ivory PRIOR to the ban date.

PDX
07-31-2016, 03:27 PM
I guess I'm the only one who feels that Ernie is/was well aware if the laws. Odds are he was fully aware of the possibility that this customer would take the cues out of country. He is a big name and is known for cues with a fair amount of ivory. The cost of this may put him into an early retirement, or he will work until he dies to recoup his losses.

Obvious the government is not screwing around and all cues makers, flippers and collectors need to take notice. If you invested heavily in cues with ivory, it looks as though you made a bad investment choice as the bam will likely follow to other states.

Ernie ****ed up and will pay dearly for it.

alstl
07-31-2016, 03:34 PM
Not if you're a prosecutor who's Performance Review is in three months.

I suspect it has more to do with the space cadet politicians running California than a performance review. It reminds me of a scene in Catch 22 where an AWOL soldier throws a hooker out of a window and the MP's walk right past the dead hooker to arrest the guy for being AWOL.

Violent crime is spiking, gangs run free in major cities and they are worried about a 70 year old man's pool cues.

GaryB
07-31-2016, 05:25 PM
I was told that materials and Ernie's computer were confiscated at the time of the Fed's visit.

What incriminating e-mails that were on the computer are not trumped by an undocumented verbal agreement.

We are all dealing in supposition and I doubt any of us have all of the real facts. I'm sad that this has happened but I am willing to wait for all of the facts before coming up with an opinion on Ernie's situation.

bbb
07-31-2016, 05:43 PM
Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

is that at most 2 anniversery cues??

greyghost
07-31-2016, 06:15 PM
Cuemakers and dealers have been outed in the past for being copiers, theives, and scammers. Players also.

Whistleblowers just get called jealous and such.

Many don't give a chit so long as they got what they want.

That and well I guess our sport and industry is a big enough joke as is and no one wants some major headline over these things.

Plenty of people can be good at what they do. And still be nothing but trash.

Just like it's bs how say celebrities get those free rides because of fame mainly.....I'm not giving any passes based on stellar play or Purdy cues.

I wonder if some of these "good guys" who are known , very not good guys by any means are giving out free head and handjobs at times.

At a minimum many of us know if the grand circle jerk that's been going on for years.

Only newbs, the forcefully blind and leaguetards as one of our hilarious members said it.....are ignorant to it. Don't even bother to inform them. They don't care either.

But I really like the newbs who just idolize and think oh there's no way......ohhhhhhhh yessss there is bet your butt. But not against Howard vickery if your under 18......winner winner chicken dinner right there.

Can't fix stupid. Can't grow or progress by hiding the mess under a rug either.

I can't stand this crap even coming out of me. It's gross. I love this sport. It's great. But man wtf is wrong with people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CJH
07-31-2016, 08:52 PM
I was told that materials and Ernie's computer were confiscated at the time of the Fed's visit.


I heard that the feds didn't visit at all but that he turned himself in.

jay helfert
07-31-2016, 08:56 PM
Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

Ernie is a proud man. I doubt he would confess to something he didn't do. He's a fighter too, so don't expect him to roll over either. Plus he's smart as well. A lot smarter than most people know. I expect to see all charges dropped against him soon and he be totally vindicated. JMHO as always.

chefjeff
08-01-2016, 05:43 AM
Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, (snip).

It comes to down to what all prosecution comes down to nowadays: The govt will (or not, depending on who wants to be governor, etc.) continue to threaten this guy, who apparently has harmed no one, until he cannot afford to fight it, then they'll offer a plea bargain, and he'll pay with both time and money and loss of reputation, but then someone has more clout to become governor! yea, then voters can vote for him to save the elephants!

Meanwhile, the tragedy of the commons, caused by crappy govt legislation, goes on and the elephants continue to die.

This is an old economic problem that has been solved long ago for most scare resources. That it exist is evidence that the govts involved from Africa to California don't care about elephants or Ernie, but do care about money and power. Ernie is just another means, not a human whose rights are to be protected, to those ends.


Jeff Livingston

lfigueroa
08-01-2016, 06:15 AM
I guess I'm the only one who feels that Ernie is/was well aware if the laws. Odds are he was fully aware of the possibility that this customer would take the cues out of country. He is a big name and is known for cues with a fair amount of ivory. The cost of this may put him into an early retirement, or he will work until he dies to recoup his losses.

Obvious the government is not screwing around and all cues makers, flippers and collectors need to take notice. If you invested heavily in cues with ivory, it looks as though you made a bad investment choice as the bam will likely follow to other states.

Ernie ****ed up and will pay dearly for it.


lol.

Ernie is a smart cookie and probably was aware of the pertinent laws. So it follows he wouldn't break them, not the other way around. And if you've ever ordered a cue from him you'd know it's very much a "just the facts" kind of process. What he cares about are the specs and design the customer wants and he goes the extra mile to ensure you get it. What the customer is going to do with the cue once he gets paid is of no concern to him.

Yes, Ernie is a big name to us. The general public, no. Fancy pool cues are a niche the general public is unaware of. So there is virtually no PR value to the government, compared to going after a company like Gibson or Steinway.

And despite the trolls here who are running around with their torches and pitchforks, all will be well. Ivory cues will retain, if not increase in value, because they will, over time, become more scarce. Nothing is going to change the intrinsic beauty of Ernie's work and it's inherent desirability.

He will pay dearly? $85K could be one cue. He has sold some for more. He will be fine.

Lou Figueroa

Pangit
08-01-2016, 07:08 AM
Does "synthetic ivory" sound better?

Synthetic ivory has grain and texture, it is far more than white plastic. The last I bought was ten years ago and was thirty dollars a foot for joint material then buying bulk. I prefer the synthetic ivory because of far better consistency than real ivory and the slightly offwhite color and texture makes it an excellent stand in for ivory. No possible issues other than mistaken identity, looks good, the only thing it lacks in my opinion is snob appeal.

Some may be sold on the hit of ivory but particularly once beyond the ferrule I doubt they can tell the difference between the hit of ivory and false ivory in blind testing.

The whole pool cue ivory thing is BS. The ivory in one tusk is more than typical cue builders use in a lifetime. Unless a cue builder uses a lot of ivory joints and buttcaps one tusk would supply a half dozen builders or more for a lifetime. Also, ivory that is less than decades old is worthless for cue building. The tiny amount of ivory brought to the US these days are legal trophies from kills by elephant hunters. Almost every crumb of illegal ivory that leaves Africa goes to Asia.

Hu


I agree that synthetic ivory sounds better in every way. If everyone were using it there wouldn't be this problem? The modern day plastic stuff is pretty good.

Elk Horn is just as pretty as ivory and really does drop off of non-endangerged species once a year without killing them to get it, and if you do kill it venison is tasty. I don't know what elephant tastes like.

Proverbs abound in every culture about 'Take only what you need'.

CJH
08-01-2016, 07:26 AM
And despite the trolls here who are running around with their torches and pitchforks, all will be well. Ivory cues will retain, if not increase in value, because they will, over time, become more scarce.
Lou Figueroa

I hope you are right. I have pristine specimens from several top cue makers with varying amounts of Ivory including Searing, Hercek, Scruggs, Black Boar, Barnhart, Bender, etc.
I have been considering what to do with them through all this ivory BS.

Fast Lenny
08-01-2016, 08:17 AM
I hope you are right. I have pristine specimens from several top cue makers with varying amounts of Ivory including Searing, Hercek, Scruggs, Black Boar, Barnhart, Bender, etc.
I have been considering what to do with them through all this ivory BS.

Fire sale them! They are not worth anything anymore. :grin-square:

j2pac
08-01-2016, 10:01 AM
Good post, IMO....this thinking comes from the same culture that will walk past a starving
child to save a seal....they should google priority.


Yeah, I know it gets complicated....you can't beat a speeding ticket because you didn't know the speed limit.
Some people around me tonight were saying if the ivory was bought legally,,,there should
be no problem....but it's not that easy either...if you have an old stock of lead-based paint...
...I got no problem with it being illegal to sell it.

But IVORY?????...what the hell...these morons will eventually make everybody a vegan.
....then we'll be neck-deep in animals that we used to devour.

pt....cheering for Ernie

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to PT109, again! ;)"

Str8PoolPlayer
08-01-2016, 10:11 AM
We can All pontificate on the if's, when's, & how's with regard to this debacle ... but,
Poor Ernie is still the one with His Nuts in the Vise.

Baby Huey
08-01-2016, 10:27 AM
I think Ernie is in deep dodo. This is a situation where you have to prove your innocence not the gov't proving your guilt. This is not unlike an IRS audit where you have to prove where you got your money from. The ban on the international movement of ivory and the nebulous laws governing that movement will be hard for him to overcome. At the very least, cue sales where ivory is involved are going to plummet. Ernie is well known for his ivory work probably more than any other cue maker in our era. Gibson Guitar Company got raided a few years ago and almost lost their venerable company because of certain imported woods which are banned in the USA. A trip to Ernie's shop may well lead to more charges. At his age (75) I think if he beats these charges or otherwise he is going to pack it in. Every cue maker better beware of ivory and exotic wood used in their cues for fear of the long hand of the law reaching in and confiscating their materials and cues. Here are some other areas where cue makers may get in trouble, they include: elephant hide tips and wraps, rhino wraps and walrus tusks just to mention a few.

Bavafongoul
08-01-2016, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by lfigueroa

"And despite the trolls here who are running around with their torches and pitchforks, all will be well. Ivory cues will retain, if not increase in value, because they will, over time, become more scarce."


I think Lou is right.........when it comes to prices of any types of artifacts or pool cues. the two primary determining factors for determining price are rarity and scarcity. When a talented cue-maker produces a small annual volume of pool cues,the overall likelihood is that the demand for those cues will be high.....often resulting in long waiting lists. Additionally, not all of the cues a cue-maker produces will use ivory for the joint, ferrules & decorative designs so there's really a mixture of cues but the best designs generally would have used ivory...IMO as supported by all 3 editions of the Blue Book of Cues.

Rarity means how many of those cues designs did that cue-maker produce in his lifetime......and with ivory cues no longer being made by some cue-makers, that number is now capped for all perpetuity. Scarcity means how many of those same cue designs can be located and are "currently available" for sale....those cues may exist but how many are sold annually.......and the smaller the number, the higher the price based upon the market principles of rarity & scarcity which decides the supply & demand scenario.

So while I did not acquire my EP cue originally for the purposes of making a profit, I'm starting to think the current outlook sure seems to favor that outcome. The two matching shafts Ed was making for me is now dead since he can't use ivory ferrules so I am out of luck. However, the shafts on my cue are 13mm so that should work in my favor not being tooth pick size. Let's face it......the outlook right now is a total crap shoot, nonetheless, my gut tells me some cue-makers' cues are going to jump in value. I think my EP will be just such a cue and if it doesn't, no big deal since I acquired it for personal play so I can't lose no matter what. Anyway, I betcha by 2020, its value would be a lot greater & thank goodness I've got plenty of cues to use in the meantime. I'm starting to think it might be time to store the EP away just in case I am right.

Walkermine
08-01-2016, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by lfigueroa

"And despite the trolls here who are running around with their torches and pitchforks, all will be well. Ivory cues will retain, if not increase in value, because they will, over time, become more scarce."


I think Lou is right.........when it comes to prices of any types of artifacts or pool cues. the two primary determining factors for determining price are rarity and scarcity. When a talented cue-maker produces a small annual volume of pool cues,the overall likelihood is that the demand for those cues will be high.....often resulting in long waiting lists. Additionally, not all of the cues a cue-maker produces will use ivory for the joint, ferrules & decorative designs so there's really a mixture of cues but the best designs generally would have used ivory...IMO as supported by all 3 editions of the Blue Book of Cues.

Rarity means how many of those cues designs did that cue-maker produce in his lifetime......and with ivory cues no longer being made by some cue-makers, that number is now capped for all perpetuity. Scarcity means how many of those same cue designs can be located and are "currently available" for sale....those cues may exist but how many are sold annually.......and the smaller the number, the higher the price based upon the market principles of rarity & scarcity which decides the supply & demand scenario.

So while I did not acquire my EP cue originally for the purposes of making a profit, I'm starting to think the current outlook sure seems to favor that outcome. The two matching shafts Ed was making for me is now dead since he can't use ivory ferrules so I am out of luck. However, the shafts on my cue are 13mm so that should work in my favor not being tooth pick size. Let's face it......the outlook right now is a total crap shoot, nonetheless, my gut tells me some cue-makers' cues are going to jump in value. I think my EP will be just such a cue and if it doesn't, no big deal since I acquired it for personal play so I can't lose no matter what. Anyway, I betcha by 2020, its value would be a lot greater & thank goodness I've got plenty of cues to use in the meantime. I'm starting to think it might be time to store the EP away just in case I am right.

Matt, I think you're dreaming. Rarity doesn't equate to value when it comes with fines and imprisonment. You might be sitting on a gold mine, but so will a hell of a lot of others. Permanently, IMO.

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 11:16 AM
How to sell it with a full blown ban?

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 12:46 PM
I think Ernie is in deep dodo. This is a situation where you have to prove your innocence not the gov't proving your guilt. This is not unlike an IRS audit where you have to prove where you got your money from. The ban on the international movement of ivory and the nebulous laws governing that movement will be hard for him to overcome. At the very least, cue sales where ivory is involved are going to plummet. Ernie is well known for his ivory work probably more than any other cue maker in our era. Gibson Guitar Company got raided a few years ago and almost lost their venerable company because of certain imported woods which are banned in the USA. A trip to Ernie's shop may well lead to more charges. At his age (75) I think if he beats these charges or otherwise he is going to pack it in. Every cue maker better beware of ivory and exotic wood used in their cues for fear of the long hand of the law reaching in and confiscating their materials and cues. Here are some other areas where cue makers may get in trouble, they include: elephant hide tips and wraps, rhino wraps and walrus tusks just to mention a few.


Lets pray and hope Ginacue was using synthetic ivory in their newer cues di he can get off.

j2pac
08-01-2016, 01:01 PM
Matt, I think you're dreaming. Rarity doesn't equate to value when it comes with fines and imprisonment. You might be sitting on a gold mine, but so will a hell of a lot of others. Permanently, IMO.

So, if the gov't accepted tax monies from a Cue containing Ivory, that ended up overseas in violation of a restriction, are they complicit as well? It seems that this would be fair, IMO. I do not know what Ernie did or didn't do, so I won't speculate, but if the states argument is that he violated the law, even if he legitimately didn't know what happened to/with the cues after the sale, then I would say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just thinking out loud.
j2

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 01:12 PM
So, if the gov't accepted tax monies from a Cue containing Ivory, that ended up overseas in violation of a restriction, are they complicit as well? It seems that this would be fair, IMO. I do not know what Ernie did or didn't do, so I won't speculate, but if the states argument is that he violated the law, even if he legitimately didn't know what happened to/with the cues after the sale, then I would say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Just thinking out loud.

j2


Someone on here who knows Ginacue and the smuggler said they know each other very well and are good friends.

It's a couple of pages back.

lfigueroa
08-01-2016, 01:39 PM
Matt, I think you're dreaming. Rarity doesn't equate to value when it comes with fines and imprisonment. You might be sitting on a gold mine, but so will a hell of a lot of others. Permanently, IMO.


It would surprise me if the NRA doesn't eventually file suit against the ban. Lot more gun collectors out there with ivory than pool players.

Lou Figueroa

greyghost
08-01-2016, 01:56 PM
It would surprise me if the NRA doesn't eventually file suit against the ban. Lot more gun collectors out there with ivory than pool players.

Lou Figueroa



Not arguing with ya lou but You Really think so? I know many gun collectors and none of them have anything ivory but just about everyone I know with a handful of cues has some ivory somewhere....I'm asking is that a professional or personal opinion or something


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 02:04 PM
Ivory handles for guns are nothing compared to other markets that use the same material.

Gun owners more concerned with their guns than an accessory.

lfigueroa
08-01-2016, 02:07 PM
Not arguing with ya lou but You Really think so? I know many gun collectors and none of them have anything ivory but just about everyone I know with a handful of cues has some ivory somewhere....I'm asking is that a professional or personal opinion or something


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My general knowledge is that the NRA has fought this issue at the state legislature level. Lots of antique/collectable guns (and knives) out there with ivory.

Lou Figueroa

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 02:11 PM
Too many bad cue makers hurting the game when players are trying to improve it. We have seen it here many times now and then this.

The arrogance by makers and are amazing. To a certain point the ivory owners too. It's very hard to defend people breaking the law, if that was what
Ginacue did.

This must stop.

jasonlaus
08-01-2016, 02:17 PM
Too many bad cue makers hurting the game when players are trying to improve it. We have seen it here many times now and then this.

The arrogance by makers and are amazing. To a certain point the ivory owners too. It's very hard to defend people breaking the law, if that was what
Ginacue did.

This must stop.

Can't wait for Commiefornia to break off and sink. Then we won't have to listen to this nonsense

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 02:19 PM
Can't wait for Commiefornia to break off and sink. Then we won't have to listen to this nonsense


Disagree.

California sinks than where is the country going to get their food?

Why are you mad about an ivory ban?

Do you sell ivory in China?

jasonlaus
08-01-2016, 02:21 PM
Disagree.

California sinks than where is the country going to get their food?

Why are you mad about an ivory ban?

Do you sell ivory in China?

Yes, all the time:rolleyes:

lfigueroa
08-01-2016, 02:33 PM
Can't wait for Commiefornia to break off and sink. Then we won't have to listen to this nonsense


I was born and raised in CA but moved away many years ago. I still go back a couple of times a year to visit family. A few weeks ago I was having dinner with my sister and she said something about as ca-ca crazy as some of the stuff in this thread and I just looked at her and laughed, "You have lived in this state too long."

Lou Figueroa

jasonlaus
08-01-2016, 03:08 PM
I lived there for a while also. Can't say I miss the 11,12 or whatever % state income tax:eek: most of the people I knew where fairly normal lol

BmoreMoney
08-01-2016, 03:30 PM
Someone on here who knows Ginacue and the smuggler said they know each other very well and are good friends.

It's a couple of pages back.

SO WHAT!!!! If a car dealer sells a friend a car and knows his buddy is a drunk and then said guy is dui and has a wreck and injures / kills someone is the car dealer responsible???? I think not and rightly so! All this kind of stuff IS SO STUPID AND SO OUT OF CONTROL!!!!! I truly do not know what if anything can be done but boy I REALLY hope someone tries to do something ! It's really really sickening imo, and getting worse by the day. DP, you sound like you're right where you belong - CA.

dom_poppa
08-01-2016, 03:41 PM
SO WHAT!!!! If a car dealer sells a friend a car and knows his buddy is a drunk and then said guy is dui and has a wreck and injures / kills someone is the car dealer responsible???? I think not and rightly so! All this kind of stuff IS SO STUPID AND SO OUT OF CONTROL!!!!! I truly do not know what if anything can be done but boy I REALLY hope someone tries to do something ! It's really really sickening imo, and getting worse by the day. DP, you sound like you're right where you belong - CA.


What happened to law and order?

Are you an activist?

jasonlaus
08-01-2016, 04:09 PM
What happened to law and order?

Are you an activist?

Take your Law and order me another drink

jasonlaus
08-01-2016, 04:11 PM
What happened to law and order?

Are you an activist?

He's an anti stupidity activist
Jason

greyghost
08-01-2016, 04:18 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160801/1d78a14a5571a2225cf8e1545da4cb84.jpg

HANGRY? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lfigueroa
08-01-2016, 04:32 PM
What happened to law and order?

Are you an activist?


lol.

Lou Figueroa

BmoreMoney
08-01-2016, 04:46 PM
What happened to law and order?

Are you an activist?
I'm quite certain a pool cue with some ivory in it is not / has not caused the breakdown of society nor has ever hurt anyone. Notice I said ANYONE - as in a human being ( what I generally care about )

Take your Law and order me another drink
LOL, that's great - LOVE IT!!! 😆

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160801/1d78a14a5571a2225cf8e1545da4cb84.jpg

HANGRY? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rice rice baby!!!!!!!!!

Bavafongoul
08-01-2016, 05:05 PM
I have no way of predicting cue prices.......but I do know this to be a fact.
EP has not produced a high volume of cues annually and judging by the
number of EP cues for sale over the past 3-4 years, there just aren't a lot
of his cues for sale........the ivory ban just means there won't be any more
made with ivory......that only helps sweeten the demand for those type EP
cues......I would never drop thousands on a cue built using Juma but that's
just me......others obviously can speak for themselves.......when something
is no longer being made and the number available is only a finite population,
the price tends to go up if there's any demand and I'm predicting there will be.
Obladi....Oblada....I sure hope so since it means I'd have to add less cash if I
ever locate the right Hercek cue. If I don't, well, I get to hang onto a great cue.

Bavafongoul
08-01-2016, 05:12 PM
Speaking of California, folks get ready for a raise in food prices this winter.......
this heat and drought is translating into lower acreage being farmed, poorer
crop quality, shorter growing / harvesting periods & future enormous increases
in price attributable to simple supply & demand......fruit, vegetables, beef, pork,
chicken, pork, eggs & dairy products. All will become become adversely affected.

Nostroke
08-01-2016, 05:14 PM
"Hopefully much or all fake?" Ahahahaha

NYC cue dude
08-01-2016, 05:53 PM
Someone on here who knows Ginacue and the smuggler said they know each other very well and are good friends.

It's a couple of pages back.

Yes, I said Ernie knows Chady well, but made no speculative remarks whether or not Ernie intended, or knew, what/where the geographic disposition of the cues was going to be.

rhinobywilhite
08-01-2016, 06:30 PM
It is going to come down to this........The only way Ernie can be found innocent of violating the CA ivory ban (AB-96 effective 7/1/16), not the Federal regulation, is if Ginacue can legally substantiate the following:

1. The ivory he used in the cue was actually pre-ban ivory.
2. The cue was actually built and shipped prior to July 1, 2016.

Both of these conditions are inviolate requirements under the CA ban and Ernie & possibly his customer under certain circumstances, have a big legal problem if the aforementioned conditions were not satisfied. If Ernie even assisted the shipping of a cue with ivory that he built before the ban took effect, it has no bearing. If shipping involves the sale of a cue, or a cue repair and "any" ivory was used, the cue had to be shipped by June 30, 2016. Any cue completed or shipped thereafter is a violation of the law. I know this to be factually true and I communicated that to Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn whom were building me custom cues scheduled for completion after July 1, 2016. This past March, I updated them about what I was told by CA Fish & Wildlife and both guys moved heaven & earth to get my cues finished by this past Memorial Day weekend. And there's a shitload of ivory in these cues so I was definitely concerned about the CA regulation. Thank goodness both of these cues now safely reside in my cue case.

California cue-makers that have anything in their shop had better get rid of everything involving ivory because the head of Enforcement at CA Fish & Wildlife could be sending agents to your shop tomorrow.....and they have the authority to inspect your premises and business records. I've been warning about this on the Forum since May after I started having communications with the Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES documentation for my cues for my own protection.

If you get caught, you may not wind up receiving the criminal imprisonment penalty allowed under the law but rest assured, you will absolutely lose you cue and receive a substantial fine and the maximum fine is not totally unimaginable for a buyer ($5k). The ivory ban is a serious impediment to cue-making and naturally for all other uses & applications as well. Do not order a cue from a CA cue-maker with ivory or else just be prepared for problems. You are far better off buying the cue in person from a individual seller. If you reside in CA, meet on the other side of the Nevada state line when you buy or sell the cue. I was told very specifically what I need to do to sell my EP cue to help finance the purchase of a Hercek cue that would also have ivory. As long as I am not in the state of California when that takes place, i.e., both the sale of my EP cue & purchase of a Hercek cue, I satisfy California Assembly Bill AB-96 and it is completely legal & permissible.


Matt B.



p.s. If Ernie has documentation that the ivory was purchased legally and can show inventory control records for usage, he will not have to do anything else.
But the burden of proof is on Ernie....he must show he abides by the law that banned ivory after 1978. He just cannot state the ivory is legal and he must
prove it because ivory was banned long ago. If he does not have adequate documentation, then US Fish & Wildlife is permitted to test sample the ivory and
carbon date it for age. They drill into the pool cue and take as many samples as they are inclined to take. Some of the ivory in a cue might be a combination of
legal pre-ban ivory and more recently poached ivory. The only way to know is to sample all of the ivory. AND......damage to the cue is not the responsibility of
CA Fish & Wildlife......they are not liable for any damages under the law even if the ivory turned out to be all legal, pre-ban ivory......I got that straight from my
local Assemblyman's legal staff. Otherwise, the cost of enforcement could become prohibitively expensive that undermines the intent and overall purpose of
the regulation. CA Fish & Wildlife is indemnified under the law for testing the ivory in any article if proper documentation evidencing its legality is not available.

A photo is worth a thousand words......the below is why I follow the ivory ban so closely.

Bava, are you saying that the Feds can date ivory through carbon testing to indicate the ivory was alive after 1980(I think that is the cutoff date)? I did not know carbon dating was that accurate based on tests I have read about concerning prehistoric bones of animals and bones of early man.

Bavafongoul
08-01-2016, 10:46 PM
The chief biologist at CA Fish & Wildlife explained to me that the only way to determine the age of ivory is by laboratory testing which requires taking a core sample of the ivory in question. I did not ask him what the specific testing was and I presumed carbon dating was an underlying process. It may not have been but I know he stated that a sample of the ivory is required. He also said the age of the ivory can be accurately determined and so I deferred to his CSI like expertise on this subject.,,,,and he was very confident too.

mortuarymike-nv
08-01-2016, 11:16 PM
Bava, are you saying that the Feds can date ivory through carbon testing to indicate the ivory was alive after 1980(I think that is the cutoff date)? I did not know carbon dating was that accurate based on tests I have read about concerning prehistoric bones of animals and bones of early man.


Re read this a few times.
Its worded tricky IMO.
http://mirappraisal.com/the-laws-behind-collecting-ivory-art-appraisal-artappraisers-paintings/

If the ivory was imported and BEFORE 1989: It is legal to own, sell and export these pieces of worked and raw ivory.
If the ivory was imported AFTER 1989 and is at a minimum of 100 years old (meaning it was not created after 1889): it is also legal to own, sell and export these items.
If the ivory is less than 100 years old and was imported AFTER 1989: these pieces of worked and raw ivory are illegal to own, sell and export.

chefjeff
08-02-2016, 05:02 AM
"Hopefully much or all fake?" Ahahahaha

What irony!

The "necessary" government creates a fake "law" that itself harms humans who have harmed none before. So, the hope here is that, instead of an honest business transaction, the hope is that the dealer committed fraud (a violation of real law) instead of having to face the fake "law" against owning a thing. Genuine human concern about others' needs and wishes is flipped upside down by bad legislation, so much so that honest folks are hoping real law was broken so the fake law can't work! Who needs any of that????

This process can go nowhere positive, but can go only downhill for all involved including the elephants, much as the war on (some) drugs has taken so many down and so much.


Jeff Livingston

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 06:09 AM
What irony!

The "necessary" government creates a fake "law" that itself harms humans who have harmed none before. So, the hope here is that, instead of an honest business transaction, the hope is that the dealer committed fraud (a violation of real law) instead of having to face the fake "law" against owning a thing. Genuine human concern about others' needs and wishes is flipped upside down by bad legislation, so much so that honest folks are hoping real law was broken so the fake law can't work! Who needs any of that????

This process can go nowhere positive, but can go only downhill for all involved including the elephants, much as the war on (some) drugs has taken so many down and so much.


Jeff Livingston

Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 06:16 AM
Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

By no means is it " that simple ". As with everything else, not everyone will stop doing anything. Make it illegal and it just drives the price up while the demand is still there. What happens? It makes it that more enticing for those already in the game and for many more to join . Be realistic.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 06:20 AM
The chief biologist at CA Fish & Wildlife explained to me that the only way to determine the age of ivory is by laboratory testing which requires taking a core sample of the ivory in question. I did not ask him what the specific testing was and I presumed carbon dating was an underlying process. It may not have been but I know he stated that a sample of the ivory is required. He also said the age of the ivory can be accurately determined and so I deferred to his CSI like expertise on this subject.,,,,and he was very confident too.

Not just in relation to ivory , but " they " are always confident till they are routinely disproved and look like asses.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 06:20 AM
By no means is it " that simple ". As with everything else, not everyone will stop doing anything. Make it illegal and it just drives the price up while the demand is still there. What happens? It makes it that more enticing for those already in the game and for many more to join . Be realistic.

I am realistic. It's the pile of you talking about the "what if" that are sniffing bong smoke. I stated what is FACT. The export of ivory from CA is currently illegal, correct? Is that reality?

Find a different white material to put in your cues. Plain and simple. Once the law is overturned, then the rhetoric can begin again. But as of now, it's illegal. Real simple.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 06:24 AM
I am realistic. It's the pile of you talking about the "what if" that are sniffing bong smoke. I stated what is FACT. The export of ivory from CA is currently illegal, correct? Is that reality?

Find a different white material to put in your cues. Plain and simple. Once the law is overturned, then the rhetoric can begin again. But as of now, it's illegal. Real simple.

What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 06:28 AM
Put it this way Shawn, outlaw ivory just like pot, coke, dope and countless other things. Did outlawing ANY of them curtail the use? No, use has exploded while also the profits have exploded. And who gets those profits????? And who gets hurt in the process????

alstl
08-02-2016, 06:51 AM
It is going to come down to this........The only way Ernie can be found innocent of violating the CA ivory ban (AB-96 effective 7/1/16), not the Federal regulation, is if Ginacue can legally substantiate the following:

1. The ivory he used in the cue was actually pre-ban ivory.
2. The cue was actually built and shipped prior to July 1, 2016.

Both of these conditions are inviolate requirements under the CA ban and Ernie & possibly his customer under certain circumstances, have a big legal problem if the aforementioned conditions were not satisfied. If Ernie even assisted the shipping of a cue with ivory that he built before the ban took effect, it has no bearing. If shipping involves the sale of a cue, or a cue repair and "any" ivory was used, the cue had to be shipped by June 30, 2016. Any cue completed or shipped thereafter is a violation of the law. I know this to be factually true and I communicated that to Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn whom were building me custom cues scheduled for completion after July 1, 2016. This past March, I updated them about what I was told by CA Fish & Wildlife and both guys moved heaven & earth to get my cues finished by this past Memorial Day weekend. And there's a shitload of ivory in these cues so I was definitely concerned about the CA regulation. Thank goodness both of these cues now safely reside in my cue case.

California cue-makers that have anything in their shop had better get rid of everything involving ivory because the head of Enforcement at CA Fish & Wildlife could be sending agents to your shop tomorrow.....and they have the authority to inspect your premises and business records. I've been warning about this on the Forum since May after I started having communications with the Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES documentation for my cues for my own protection.

If you get caught, you may not wind up receiving the criminal imprisonment penalty allowed under the law but rest assured, you will absolutely lose you cue and receive a substantial fine and the maximum fine is not totally unimaginable for a buyer ($5k). The ivory ban is a serious impediment to cue-making and naturally for all other uses & applications as well. Do not order a cue from a CA cue-maker with ivory or else just be prepared for problems. You are far better off buying the cue in person from a individual seller. If you reside in CA, meet on the other side of the Nevada state line when you buy or sell the cue. I was told very specifically what I need to do to sell my EP cue to help finance the purchase of a Hercek cue that would also have ivory. As long as I am not in the state of California when that takes place, i.e., both the sale of my EP cue & purchase of a Hercek cue, I satisfy California Assembly Bill AB-96 and it is completely legal & permissible.


Matt B.



p.s. If Ernie has documentation that the ivory was purchased legally and can show inventory control records for usage, he will not have to do anything else.
But the burden of proof is on Ernie....he must show he abides by the law that banned ivory after 1978. He just cannot state the ivory is legal and he must
prove it because ivory was banned long ago. If he does not have adequate documentation, then US Fish & Wildlife is permitted to test sample the ivory and
carbon date it for age. They drill into the pool cue and take as many samples as they are inclined to take. Some of the ivory in a cue might be a combination of
legal pre-ban ivory and more recently poached ivory. The only way to know is to sample all of the ivory. AND......damage to the cue is not the responsibility of
CA Fish & Wildlife......they are not liable for any damages under the law even if the ivory turned out to be all legal, pre-ban ivory......I got that straight from my
local Assemblyman's legal staff. Otherwise, the cost of enforcement could become prohibitively expensive that undermines the intent and overall purpose of
the regulation. CA Fish & Wildlife is indemnified under the law for testing the ivory in any article if proper documentation evidencing its legality is not available.

A photo is worth a thousand words......the below is why I follow the ivory ban so closely.

I don't know about California but here in Missouri people are innocent until proven guilty. The government has to prove guilt, not vice versa. It seems to me the government will have to prove his ivory wasn't pre-ban and provide evidence of him using, purchasing or being in possession of banned ivory.

What am I missing?

chefjeff
08-02-2016, 07:01 AM
Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

Acquiescing to crime does nothing to reduce it but only increases it, no matter the label.

So, no it is not that simple. In fact, the cure is the exact opposite of it.


Jeff Livingston

Grantstew
08-02-2016, 07:03 AM
It's like being caught with an illegal substance, unless you can prove you are allowed to have that substance, you are going to be guilty. He has to prove that his ivory is legal, not vice versa.

By the way, pre-ban or not, it is illegal to ship ivory in or out of the USA.

chefjeff
08-02-2016, 07:06 AM
What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

He is making the common mistake that legislation = law. It rarely does.

That's the trick of the legislators who want us all to OBEY and think they create goodness and order in society when nothing could be further from the truth.

The skools are the first proponents of this propaganda and we can see how effective it is right here in this thread.

But the truth wins out in the long run due to the dynamics of basic survival. Meanwhile, real individuals are being harmed by legislation that violates real law.


And the elephants die.

Jeff Livingston

jasonlaus
08-02-2016, 07:35 AM
Why do some of you keep going on about him having Ivory in California? Can you not read? Do you just want to hear yourself talk out your @$$?
Just wondering
Jason

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 07:50 AM
Put it this way Shawn, outlaw ivory just like pot, coke, dope and countless other things. Did outlawing ANY of them curtail the use? No, use has exploded while also the profits have exploded. And who gets those profits????? And who gets hurt in the process????

1st world problems. Whine at me about the price of insulin. Then I may listen. But for people to be up in arms because they can't have a pretty white material in their pool cues is completely idiotic, to me. Find something else.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 08:10 AM
What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

We haven't been able to import ivory into Canada for nearly a decade now. There were no rallies. No rioting in the street. We just said "ok", and went about our business.

They aren't taking your guns away. They're saying ivory cannot be sent out of California. Deal with it. Find a stainless steel jointed cue, or phenolic jointed cue. With a non ivory ferrule. Yes, elephants will continue to die. Heck, I don't support the ivory trade. And elephants continue to die. I also don't own a gun. Yet people are being shot to death daily. What I can say is that I am doing my part in not supporting gun related deaths, and the slaughter of elephants. I wouldn't buy ivory if it was less expensive than phenolic.

So, you see, if the world thought like me, there would be no market for ivory. Therefore, Jumbo and his offspring would live on, because the dead elephant is worth nothing on the world market. But the people that will pay high dollar for ivory are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of every poached elephant killed for ivory, because they are the consumers that have established the need and value of ivory. Without them, there would be no "going rate" for ivory.

Everyone that supports the "legal" ivory trade loses sight of the above concept. It's like price vs value. Some people have no clue why a Ferrari is worth $1M, when their Camry gets them from point A to point B. That's price vs value. Some people would pay $2M to have a Ferrari, and some wouldn't buy it if it was $100k. The fact that people will pay top dollar for legal ivory has created the black market for illegal ivory. So, the only way to actually eliminate the problem is to make ivory worthless. Won't happen. So, elephants will die. But anyone that thinks legally regulating the sale of ivory will have any sort of impact on saving elephants is delusional. Take a look at the facts. Death rates in elephants were at their highest pre 1989, when the trade of ivory was legal. So, legalizing ivory trading kills more elephants than making it illegal. I have yet to see anyone construct an effective argument against the actual statistics.

The elephant will be extinct in my lifetime. Which is sad. And anyone with ivory in their cues can feel the shame that they, in their 0.000000001% level of guilt, contributed to their demise. There are cuemakers that stopped using ivory a couple of years ago. They seem to be doing just fine. Evan stopped using it at Schon, and Segen. Dieckman never used it, due to bad karma. He did fine as well.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 08:23 AM
We haven't been able to import ivory into Canada for nearly a decade now. There were no rallies. No rioting in the street. We just said "ok", and went about our business.

They aren't taking your guns away. They're saying ivory cannot be sent out of California. Deal with it. Find a stainless steel jointed cue, or phenolic jointed cue. With a non ivory ferrule. Yes, elephants will continue to die. Heck, I don't support the ivory trade. And elephants continue to die. I also don't own a gun. Yet people are being shot to death daily. What I can say is that I am doing my part in not supporting gun related deaths, and the slaughter of elephants. I wouldn't buy ivory if it was less expensive than phenolic.

So, you see, if the world thought like me, there would be no market for ivory. Therefore, Jumbo and his offspring would live on, because the dead elephant is worth nothing on the world market. But the people that will pay high dollar for ivory are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of every poached elephant killed for ivory, because they are the consumers that have established the need and value of ivory. Without them, there would be no "going rate" for ivory.

Everyone that supports the "legal" ivory trade loses sight of the above concept. It's like price vs value. Some people have no clue why a Ferrari is worth $1M, when their Camry gets them from point A to point B. That's price vs value. Some people would pay $2M to have a Ferrari, and some wouldn't buy it if it was $100k. The fact that people will pay top dollar for legal ivory has created the black market for illegal ivory. So, the only way to actually eliminate the problem is to make ivory worthless. Won't happen. So, elephants will die. But anyone that thinks legally regulating the sale of ivory will have any sort of impact on saving elephants is delusional. Take a look at the facts. Death rates in elephants were at their highest pre 1989, when the trade of ivory was legal. So, legalizing ivory trading kills more elephants than making it illegal. I have yet to see anyone construct an effective argument against the actual statistics.

The elephant will be extinct in my lifetime. Which is sad. And anyone with ivory in their cues can feel the shame that they, in their 0.000000001% level of guilt, contributed to their demise. There are cuemakers that stopped using ivory a couple of years ago. They seem to be doing just fine. Evan stopped using it at Schon, and Segen. Dieckman never used it, due to bad karma. He did fine as well.

I really have no dog in this fight, as I have stated I prefer and play with a wood to wood joint. Really do not care about ivory. So, since they outlawed ivory in your country - have they outlawed meth, coke, and pot? If so has that made everyone just stop using it ? What has happened to the price?. With any black market item you can make comparisons if you are true and not delusional.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 08:31 AM
I really have no dog in this fight, as I have stated I prefer and play with a wood to wood joint. Really do not care about ivory. So, since they outlawed ivory in your country - have they outlawed meth, coke, and pot? If so has that made everyone just stop using it ? What has happened to the price?. With any black market item you can make comparisons if you are true and not delusional.

The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.

jasonlaus
08-02-2016, 08:37 AM
The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.

Nevermind.........waste of words

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 08:38 AM
The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. At one point, all drugs WERE legal. Same as alcohol. It's well known what happened with alcohol correct? Everything else that is now illegal we can see the result correct??? If not, sorry for you brother . You or anyone else can outlaw whatever yards like, but the fact is it WILL CONTINUE . Just depends on the price. FACT.

jasonlaus
08-02-2016, 08:43 AM
The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.


Maybe Coca Cola rings a bell??? For starters

Bavafongoul
08-02-2016, 09:43 AM
The reason the CA aspect is brought up is state laws get enacted more easily than Federal laws. If Ernie
did indeed break the Federal law, then he may have also violated the CA regulation and if so, he's in big
trouble with CA Fish & Wildlife........one can be guilty of breaking both State & Federal regs on ivory ban.

So bringing up CA and other states exemplifies why people need to get off their asses and start making
some calls to confirm this movement doesn't nefariously creep into your state legislature's agenda. The
Federal equivalent takes a lot more time and effort & is publicized more than what happens at state levels.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 10:38 AM
Maybe Coca Cola rings a bell??? For starters

There's alcohol in mouthwash and cold syrup. What's your point?

bdorman
08-02-2016, 10:45 AM
With any black market item you can make comparisons if you are true and not delusional.

The simple difference is that illegal drugs don't cause the extinction of a species.

No one is arguing that ivory will damage your health, as they do for drugs. The argument is about extinction.

Ivory and drugs are...excuse the pun....different animals.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 10:46 AM
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. At one point, all drugs WERE legal. Same as alcohol. It's well known what happened with alcohol correct? Everything else that is now illegal we can see the result correct??? If not, sorry for you brother . You or anyone else can outlaw whatever yards like, but the fact is it WILL CONTINUE . Just depends on the price. FACT.

If you're too dense to realize that ivory comes from a living being, no amount of chalkboard talks or crayola diagrams are going to help you.

Perhaps we should talk about the plight of the poor cannabis plant, and its right to live. Or the millions of innocent poppies killed per year for the opium trade. Or all those wheat fields/potatoes/etc that are destroyed to make alcohol.

The comparisons may make you feel better. The problems are not related in the slightest. You're discussing things that people are addicted to. I don't have a cocaine statue in my house. Or a meth ferrule on my pool cue. Some people get high to feel better. I ride my motorcycle and work out. That pretty white ferrule of yours can be replaced with a material that is more durable, costs less, and is a sustainable man made material.

All I hear are arguments about drugs, screaming trees, killing cows for food, etc. These arguments hold NO WATER, as we are talking about sustainable resources. And things that are necessities. Ivory is not a necessity. It's a luxury. And you are condoning the elimination of a species by using and supporting its trade. Plain and simple. If you think it's the human's right and prerogative to destroy the other living creatures on the planet purely for "luxury", you have no social conscience.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 10:47 AM
The simple difference is that illegal drugs don't cause the extinction of a species.

No one is arguing that ivory will damage your health, as they do for drugs. The argument is about extinction.

Ivory and drugs are...excuse the pun....different animals.

OMG. Someone actually gets it. Rep to you.

jasonlaus
08-02-2016, 10:52 AM
There's alcohol in mouthwash and cold syrup. What's your point?

Cocaine was LEGAL. Surely you must be acting

jasonlaus
08-02-2016, 10:55 AM
If you're too dense to realize that ivory comes from a living being, no amount of chalkboard talks or crayola diagrams are going to help you.

Perhaps we should talk about the plight of the poor cannabis plant, and its right to live. Or the millions of innocent poppies killed per year for the opium trade. Or all those wheat fields/potatoes/etc that are destroyed to make alcohol.

The comparisons may make you feel better. The problems are not related in the slightest. You're discussing things that people are addicted to. I don't have a cocaine statue in my house. Or a meth ferrule on my pool cue. Some people get high to feel better. I ride my motorcycle and work out. That pretty white ferrule of yours can be replaced with a material that is more durable, costs less, and is a sustainable man made material.

All I hear are arguments about drugs, screaming trees, killing cows for food, etc. These arguments hold NO WATER, as we are talking about sustainable resources. And things that are necessities. Ivory is not a necessity. It's a luxury. And you are condoning the elimination of a species by using and supporting its trade. Plain and simple. If you think it's the human's right and prerogative to destroy the other living creatures on the planet purely for "luxury", you have no social conscience.

You do realize fresh Ivory cannot be used don't you?

You owe many trees an apology for using the oxygen they made.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 10:57 AM
Cocaine was LEGAL. Surely you must be acting

http://clacs.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/16156/DrugWarBolivia_Background.pdf

Someone needs a chemistry lesson. There is no "cocaine" in Coca Cola.

Jdale
08-02-2016, 11:01 AM
I wrote my congressman and ask him to look into Ernie's situation. Ask him to make sure Ernie's not being railroaded by over zealous goverment myrmidons.
If was a California complaint, CDFG law enforcement would not only have went and arrested Ernie they would have stripped his shop of anything resembling evidence.

In many South Afrian countries Elephants are not endangered and their healthy populations are maintained by well regulated hunting permits issued by the goverments.
Most endangered elephants are in countries controlled by Warlords where poaching is excessive. I guess black market ivory byes a lot of bullets ?

I read it on the web.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 11:02 AM
You do realize fresh Ivory cannot be used don't you?

You owe many trees an apology for using the oxygen they made.

Stop pulling a Donald Trump. Remain on topic. Ivory. Not about trees.....or the cow that I ate for lunch, Or the wood I used today to build a wall. Dead elephants. Try to keep up.

And the US has no Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or amendments that allow them to completely wipe out a species of animal. So your legal rights have not been impeded in any way. Petition Congress to allow you to harvest all the American elephants you currently have for ivory.

NYC cue dude
08-02-2016, 11:14 AM
http://clacs.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/16156/DrugWarBolivia_Background.pdf

Someone needs a chemistry lesson. There is no "cocaine" in Coca Cola.

You must be young. Coca is the derivative of cocaine, from the coca plant. This was the key ingredient in Coca Cola when it was first brought to market. Hence, the products name.

Opium was also ubiquitous, even in colonial America (mid to late 1700's), right on through to the early 1900's. Fwiw.

BmoreMoney
08-02-2016, 11:47 AM
The simple difference is that illegal drugs don't cause the extinction of a species.

No one is arguing that ivory will damage your health, as they do for drugs. The argument is about extinction.

Ivory and drugs are...excuse the pun....different animals.

The truth IS, I DO NOT CARE NOR DOES MANY MANY OTHERS .

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 11:49 AM
You must be young. Coca is the derivative of cocaine, from the coca plant. This was the key ingredient in Coca Cola when it was first brought to market. Hence, the products name.

Opium was also ubiquitous, even in colonial America (mid to late 1700's), right on through to the early 1900's. Fwiw.

Cocaine was removed from Coca Cola in 1929. So, yeah, I guess I'm young. I'm not 87.

And coca is the raw leaf. Not the derivative of cocaine. Cocaine is the derivative of the coca plant.

The key ingredient in Coca Cola has always been sugar. Plain and simple. 12 teaspoons per can. The amount of "cocaine" that can be derived from the amount of coca leaves used in coke equates to about 6 one-hundredths of an ounce per 25 million gallons of coca cola syrup (just add fizzy water and sugar). Key ingredient? Even when straight cocaine was in the drink, there was about 1/400th of a grain of cocaine per ounce of syrup.

I'm 45. And I can read. The internet is a wonderful place.

westpocket9
08-02-2016, 11:57 AM
I have warned for years that it is a crapshoot playing games with customs shipping cues with ivory or toting them in and out the country. Now Ernie has gotten nailed with something he may not have realized was even a crime, he sold to someone who turned around and exported the cues or cue pieces with ivory. The sentence isn't a small one, potentially ten years, and with Ginicue's high profile they may well make an example out of him. Doing any time at all will absolutely suck in your late seventies!

If you are going to own ivory and move it across borders be very sure you know the laws and have proper documentation. In this case Ernie Gutierrez just sold to someone who then broke the law. Apparently, customs is claiming foreknowledge or something.

Pool makes international news, as usual it is with a black eye.

Hu



"Seventy-five-year-old Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez surrendered Thursday. He's accused of aiding and abetting illegal exportation - which can carry a 10-year prison term."

this is a huge message that hits home very hard!

j2pac
08-02-2016, 12:03 PM
http://clacs.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/16156/DrugWarBolivia_Background.pdf

Someone needs a chemistry lesson. There is no "cocaine" in Coca Cola.

Shawn, FWIW, I think everyone in this thread needs to take a minute, and step back. No one really knows exactly what happened yet, so it's best to probably let thing's play out before Ernie is "convicted" before he even has his day, or a chance to defend himself. Now I will say this, yes, drugs and elephants are different animals, but...the way to KILL a market is usually the same. IF, these global gov'ts were really concerned about these truly magnificent animals, the "fix" was an easy one, long ago. All that had to be done, was for the ivory that was harvested legally, from animals that presumably died of natural causes, disease, age, etc, was for that Ivory to be dumped at giveaway prices in the various global markets. That would have driven down demand, which would have driven down prices, which is always the "cure" for devaluing anything. Once the value is gone, then the "crimes" associated with the obtaining of the product are FAR less likely, if the profit from such activities is diminished. Just look at the U.S. dollar as an example, when the gov't floods the market with funny money, the value of even a dollar, really isn't a dollar. Now, on top of this, if you want to target something, target the poachers! If these arsehats, were to say, be executed, which I for one would have NO problem with...then you have a double edged sword, that generally proves to be historically effective. This the last post that I will make in this thread, so I will just say in closing, that I truly do hope Ernie is vindicated, and that typically speaking, most of the "gov't's" who are enacting these "laws" as far I can tell, are generally following a page from a playbook, that they are apparently reading backwards, or upside down, IMO.
Best regards.
Joe P

CJH
08-02-2016, 12:07 PM
The real problem with the Ivory ban is not that NEW ivory cannot be imported, exported, bought, sold or used. I think we can all deal with that. The problem is they have made the actions you can take with legal ivory and products containing legal ivory either heavily restricted and/or now illegal. In my case, I have a cue collection of some value. Every cue I have was made with legal ivory before July 1st, 2016. Now, I am heavily restricted as to what I may do with my legal cue collection. The documentation they require me to have in order to sell one of my cues, I do not have because at the time of purchase, it was not required. This is insanity and will not save any Elephants. It will just hurt me financially. This the Nazi style BS I have come to expect from our elected officials. This aspect of the law is also unconstitutional. Thats the problem.

If I am a business, like a cue maker, and I have inventory of pre-ban ivory or products made with pre-ban Ivory, I absolutely should be able to sell my remaining inventory lawfully. That would be the right way to structure the law.

Of course, I don't think my comments have much to do with Ernie's situation.

nick serdula
08-02-2016, 12:57 PM
The real problem with the Ivory ban is not that NEW ivory cannot be imported, exported, bought, sold or used. I think we can all deal with that. The problem is they have made the actions you can take with legal ivory and products containing legal ivory either heavily restricted and/or now illegal. In my case, I have a cue collection of some value. Every cue I have was made with legal ivory before July 1st, 2016. Now, I am heavily restricted as to what I may do with my legal cue collection. The documentation they require me to have in order to sell one of my cues, I do not have because at the time of purchase, it was not required. This is insanity and will not save any Elephants. It will just hurt me financially. This the Nazi style BS I have come to expect from our elected officials. This aspect of the law is also unconstitutional. Thats the problem.

If I am a business, like a cue maker, and I have inventory of pre-ban ivory or products made with pre-ban Ivory, I absolutely should be able to sell my remaining inventory lawfully. That would be the right way to structure the law.

Of course, I don't think my comments have much to do with Ernie's situation.


We eat it.

chefjeff
08-02-2016, 01:00 PM
If you're too dense to realize that ivory comes from a living being, no amount of chalkboard talks or crayola diagrams are going to help you.

Perhaps we should talk about the plight of the poor cannabis plant, and its right to live. Or the millions of innocent poppies killed per year for the opium trade. Or all those wheat fields/potatoes/etc that are destroyed to make alcohol.

The comparisons may make you feel better. The problems are not related in the slightest. You're discussing things that people are addicted to. I don't have a cocaine statue in my house. Or a meth ferrule on my pool cue. Some people get high to feel better. I ride my motorcycle and work out. That pretty white ferrule of yours can be replaced with a material that is more durable, costs less, and is a sustainable man made material.

All I hear are arguments about drugs, screaming trees, killing cows for food, etc. These arguments hold NO WATER, as we are talking about sustainable resources. And things that are necessities. Ivory is not a necessity. It's a luxury. And you are condoning the elimination of a species by using and supporting its trade. Plain and simple. If you think it's the human's right and prerogative to destroy the other living creatures on the planet purely for "luxury", you have no social conscience.

Economics is the study of the allocation of resources and its principles apply to many items in marketplaces everywhere, including the scarce resource of elephants.

Also, value of anything is subjective, not objective, so there is no objective standard of who should use what resource for what purpose, who "should" use or not use ivory in a cue.

Lastly, there is a thing called property rights which in both the cues and the elephants cases have been reduced greatly by govt meddling, thus the increased scarcity and arguments about and pricing problems of ivory. If elephant populations were owned as cows, for one example, are owned, then scarcity would become a thing of the past as the owners, being selfish and greedy humans, would preserve their wealth and protect it from predators of any kind, thus a steady supply of ivory for the world just as there is a steady supply of milk and beef.

A good link (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Henry+Hazlitt%27s+classic%2C+Economics+in+One+L esson&t=ffab&ia=products)for more on these subjects.



Jeff Livingston

lfigueroa
08-02-2016, 01:29 PM
I am realistic. It's the pile of you talking about the "what if" that are sniffing bong smoke. I stated what is FACT. The export of ivory from CA is currently illegal, correct? Is that reality?

Find a different white material to put in your cues. Plain and simple. Once the law is overturned, then the rhetoric can begin again. But as of now, it's illegal. Real simple.


ahem, people in CA, wanting to sell cues out of state, should find another white material to put in their cues.

Lou Figueroa

cueaddicts
08-02-2016, 01:58 PM
The ivory threads always explode and bring out the kooks, lol....it's uncanny 😵

classiccues
08-02-2016, 02:20 PM
Every animal taken for anything is alive at some point. Do they feel pain, of course they do. They are even capable of learning. However that doesn't stop us from hunting, killing and eating them.

Poachers kill elephants, we have enough already dead ivory to last for a long time, if not 100's of years. There is zero reason to go after cuemakers, carvers, etc.. that have ivory stock. Or end users that have ivory in their cues, chess sets, canes, netsuke, or whatever. This is the governments end around to another law they didn't bother to enforce originally.

Ivory in China has already increased in price, because the people in the US are to scared to send what they have through the mail. So in order to make up that shortage, they are paying more to the poachers. So you tell me genius, what is going to happen to the elephants now?

All that ivory they destroyed, would have bought them the best. They could have metered it out as needed and controlled the ivory market. Instead they wanted to put a bigger price on the head of the elephant, which they succeeded. So by making ivory that has been legally purchased, legally used, within the laws at the time, illegal, what did they accomplish? Nothing.

As I mentioned many times, people who want it, will get it, at whatever price they are willing to pay. For some people that price may never reach a point where they can't get it.

There is nothing wrong with going after the poachers, in fact its the right thing to do.

JV

If you're too dense to realize that ivory comes from a living being, no amount of chalkboard talks or crayola diagrams are going to help you.

Perhaps we should talk about the plight of the poor cannabis plant, and its right to live. Or the millions of innocent poppies killed per year for the opium trade. Or all those wheat fields/potatoes/etc that are destroyed to make alcohol.

The comparisons may make you feel better. The problems are not related in the slightest. You're discussing things that people are addicted to. I don't have a cocaine statue in my house. Or a meth ferrule on my pool cue. Some people get high to feel better. I ride my motorcycle and work out. That pretty white ferrule of yours can be replaced with a material that is more durable, costs less, and is a sustainable man made material.

All I hear are arguments about drugs, screaming trees, killing cows for food, etc. These arguments hold NO WATER, as we are talking about sustainable resources. And things that are necessities. Ivory is not a necessity. It's a luxury. And you are condoning the elimination of a species by using and supporting its trade. Plain and simple. If you think it's the human's right and prerogative to destroy the other living creatures on the planet purely for "luxury", you have no social conscience.

cueaddicts
08-02-2016, 02:47 PM
No need for common sense, Joe. It's a nuthouse up in here.

Chopdoc
08-02-2016, 02:51 PM
There is nothing wrong with going after the poachers, in fact its the right thing to do.

JV



Agreed.

But in Africa, the government officials and even the NGOs are in on the poaching and smuggling. They profit by it. Take lots of bribes.

Burn a mountain of Ivory for the National Geographic cameras in Africa? Sure! Then laugh all the way to the bank.

It's the same across the board. Lots of child prostitution in Africa. Want a child? Go there and seek out one of the social workers that work for one of the NGOs that is supposed to be working to save those children. That's right, the same NGOs that get grants from the UN and solicit lots of donations from US citizens. That's the best way to get yourself a child.

Yeah, distasteful to even mention. But if it works that way with human children, what's an elephant to them? Nothing.




There is a lot of speculation and bickering in this thread.

The one thing I can say for sure is that there is no easy answer to any of this, and the situation with the cue maker probably isn't simple and IMHO is concerning for real trouble. I will be interested to see how it plays out and continue to have best wishes for him.



.

Shawn Armstrong
08-02-2016, 04:16 PM
No need for common sense, Joe. It's a nuthouse up in here.

You're right. The ivory trade in no way harms elephants.

In 1999 and 2008, there were two massive legal selloffs of preban ivory to China. Care to postulate what happened during those two years with regards to poaching? Yet you and Joe have maintained that if the legal Ivory was controlled and sold off...that massive supply that apparently exists somewhere....that poaching wouldn't be necessary. Yet it boomed those two years. But what do us turnips know. Right?

lfigueroa
08-02-2016, 04:29 PM
You're right. The ivory trade in no way harms elephants.

In 1999 and 2008, there were two massive legal selloffs of preban ivory to China. Care to postulate what happened during those two years with regards to poaching? Yet you and Joe have maintained that if the legal Ivory was controlled and sold off...that massive supply that apparently exists somewhere....that poaching wouldn't be necessary. Yet it boomed those two years. But what do us turnips know. Right?


Get back to me when you can substitute USA for China. By current estimates 95% of the ivory goes to Asia, along with bear gall bladders, tiger dicks, rhino horn, and who knows what else. What US cue makers are using will not save a single solitary elephant.

Lou Figueroa

GideonF
08-02-2016, 04:49 PM
Get back to me when you can substitute USA for China. By current estimates 95% of the ivory goes to Asia, along with bear gall bladders, tiger dicks, rhino horn, and who knows what else. What US cue makers are using will not save a single solitary elephant.

Lou Figueroa

I usually try to stay out of these debates, but the argument from those trying to eliminate poaching and the illegal trade is that "legal" use legitimatizes the illegal use. It is the same reason that mammoth is also being banned. For what it is worth, I think that when cue-making giants like Ernie (and many others) use ivory in their high end cues, it helps to create a status symbol of having ivory in a cue - and generally to validate ivory as a valuable and prized product in other walks of life.

People can (and often do) disagree with the logic behind this thinking, but it is not like the people (NGOs etc) who are opposing poaching haven't given this a lot of thought.

SJDinPHX
08-02-2016, 04:55 PM
Get back to me when you can substitute USA for China. By current estimates 95% of the ivory goes to Asia, along with bear gall bladders, tiger dicks, rhino horn, and who knows what else. What US cue makers are using will not save a single solitary elephant.

Lou Figueroa

You are absolutely right Lou!..The miniscule amount of ivory used to decorate cuesticks, is really nothing compared to the hundreds of ways the Asian's make use of it, and they do it by the ton!..Lets hope that Ernie is not being set up as an example, by people who don't seem to have a clue about the reality of the situation! :(

lfigueroa
08-02-2016, 04:56 PM
I usually try to stay out of these debates, but the argument from those trying to eliminate poaching and the illegal trade is that "legal" use legitimatizes the illegal use. It is the same reason that mammoth is also being banned. For what it is worth, I think that when cue-making giants like Ernie (and many others) use ivory in their high end cues, it helps to create a status symbol of having ivory in a cue - and generally to validate ivory as a valuable and prized product in other walks of life.

People can (and often do) disagree with the logic behind this thinking, but it is not like the people (NGOs etc) who are opposing poaching haven't given this a lot of thought.


Don't make me laugh.

It is a small niche market in the US that it is insignificant compared to the ivory you'd see on open display walking down the street in Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Dongguan, Taipei, Chengdu, Hong Kong, Nanjing, Wuhan, Shenyang, Hangzhou, Chongqing, much less Chinatown in SF or NYC, or what you'd see at any pool event you'd care to name.

Lou Figueroa
please stop following me
around the forum

SJDinPHX
08-02-2016, 05:16 PM
Don't make me laugh.

It is a small niche market in the US that it is insignificant compared to the ivory you'd see on open display walking down the street in Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Dongguan, Taipei, Chengdu, Hong Kong, Nanjing, Wuhan, Shenyang, Hangzhou, Chongqing, much less Chinatown in SF or NYC, or what you'd see at any pool event you'd care to name.

Lou Figueroa
please stop following me
around the forum

You are right again Lou!..:cool: (see post 248)