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Skippy27
07-29-2016, 09:24 AM
The “coach” was doing 2 things throughout the evening I have an issue with, both involved him approaching the table and roaming into the player space.

1.) During important shots he would either get right up behind his teammate (within a foot) or look directly down from the object ball, even if that meant bending over in front of us, to see his shoot angle and if he didn't like it while the guy was down, he would stop him. If it was OK, he would let it go.

2.) The "coach" would also constantly approach the table as if he is the shooter while the player was examining it and he did that a lot (taking 40-60+ on EVERY shoot). He would even bend down at the rail, to look at angles and ball clearances to pockets.

We mentioned to him that he should not be doing such and his response was “if I don’t talk to him, it is not a coach”. Our captain had already warned us of this team being hot heads so we didn’t persist.

Our evening ended tied 7-7 with us winning 3 of the 5 matches. We congratulated them and then advised their captain that it was poor sportsmanship to allow his players (2 of them did it) to roam the playing area like that. Which didn't go well being one of them was already extremely pissed after getting a BIH foul called on him when he was trying to place the cue ball during his BIH which left our 6 a tap in 8 ball shoot, which then lead to him winning 4 more games in a row to take the match 5-3 from the guy who was on hill and fell apart after that because he was so pissed and they didn't know the rules about cue ball fouls.

1.) I am pretty sure any of us can figure out that if you maneuver yourself to look directly through our shot while we are down and you aren't stopping us then we are doing the right thing and should continue on. This would be much like us looking at you as we aim waiting for your nod of approval.

2.) The very act of you examining balls to see angles and clearances can lead a player to a ball or pattern, especially if you are focusing on a particular shot. It is one thing to approach the table to check for a frozen ball situation or to watch a potential bad hit. Any other reason is unacceptable. If you want to take a quick glance to see some clearance or an angle then do it away from the table or AFTER the player takes a coach.

We felt in both of those above no words needed to be exchanged for a player to be coached.

Is my team alone in thinking this?

lorider
07-29-2016, 10:20 AM
The “coach” was doing 2 things throughout the evening I have an issue with, both involved him approaching the table and roaming into the player space.

1.) During important shots he would either get right up behind his teammate (within a foot) or look directly down from the object ball, even if that meant bending over in front of us, to see his shoot angle and if he didn't like it while the guy was down, he would stop him. If it was OK, he would let it go.

2.) The "coach" would also constantly approach the table as if he is the shooter while the player was examining it and he did that a lot (taking 40-60+ on EVERY shoot). He would even bend down at the rail, to look at angles and ball clearances to pockets.

We mentioned to him that he should not be doing such and his response was “if I don’t talk to him, it is not a coach”. Our captain had already warned us of this team being hot heads so we didn’t persist.

Our evening ended tied 7-7 with us winning 3 of the 5 matches. We congratulated them and then advised their captain that it was poor sportsmanship to allow his players (2 of them did it) to roam the playing area like that. Which didn't go well being one of them was already extremely pissed after getting a BIH foul called on him when he was trying to place the cue ball during his BIH which left our 6 a tap in 8 ball shoot, which then lead to him winning 4 more games in a row to take the match 5-3 from the guy who was on hill and fell apart after that because he was so pissed and they didn't know the rules about cue ball fouls.

1.) I am pretty sure any of us can figure out that if you maneuver yourself to look directly through our shot while we are down and you aren't stopping us then we are doing the right thing and should continue on. This would be much like us looking at you as we aim waiting for your nod of approval.

2.) The very act of you examining balls to see angles and clearances can lead a player to a ball or pattern, especially if you are focusing on a particular shot. It is one thing to approach the table to check for a frozen ball situation or to watch a potential bad hit. Any other reason is unacceptable. If you want to take a quick glance to see some clearance or an angle then do it away from the table or AFTER the player takes a coach.

We felt in both of those above no words needed to be exchanged for a player to be coached.

Is my team alone in thinking this?

I interpret his actions the same way you do.

As for what to do about it ? Tell them if they ain't shooting...coaching ...or a 3rd party observer watching for a possible foul they ha e no business at the table.

In other words I would ask the offender....are you coaching this shot ? If he says no I would tell him to sit his ass down .

Cornerman
07-29-2016, 10:28 AM
The “coach” was doing 2 things throughout the evening I have an issue with, both involved him approaching the table and roaming into the player space.

1.) During important shots he would either get right up behind his teammate (within a foot) or look directly down from the object ball, even if that meant bending over in front of us, to see his shoot angle and if he didn't like it while the guy was down, he would stop him. If it was OK, he would let it go.

2.) The "coach" would also constantly approach the table as if he is the shooter while the player was examining it and he did that a lot (taking 40-60+ on EVERY shoot). He would even bend down at the rail, to look at angles and ball clearances to pockets.

We mentioned to him that he should not be doing such and his response was “if I don’t talk to him, it is not a coach”. Our captain had already warned us of this team being hot heads so we didn’t persist.

Our evening ended tied 7-7 with us winning 3 of the 5 matches. We congratulated them and then advised their captain that it was poor sportsmanship to allow his players (2 of them did it) to roam the playing area like that. Which didn't go well being one of them was already extremely pissed after getting a BIH foul called on him when he was trying to place the cue ball during his BIH which left our 6 a tap in 8 ball shoot, which then lead to him winning 4 more games in a row to take the match 5-3 from the guy who was on hill and fell apart after that because he was so pissed and they didn't know the rules about cue ball fouls.

1.) I am pretty sure any of us can figure out that if you maneuver yourself to look directly through our shot while we are down and you aren't stopping us then we are doing the right thing and should continue on. This would be much like us looking at you as we aim waiting for your nod of approval.

2.) The very act of you examining balls to see angles and clearances can lead a player to a ball or pattern, especially if you are focusing on a particular shot. It is one thing to approach the table to check for a frozen ball situation or to watch a potential bad hit. Any other reason is unacceptable. If you want to take a quick glance to see some clearance or an angle then do it away from the table or AFTER the player takes a coach.

We felt in both of those above no words needed to be exchanged for a player to be coached.

Is my team alone in thinking this?
The league I played in for years had the "approaching the table" words in the timeout section. If a teammate approaches the table, it's a timeout. If they ask if they want a timeout, it's a timeout.

Freddie

justadub
07-29-2016, 10:33 AM
I interpret his actions the same way you do.

As for what to do about it ? Tell them if they ain't shooting...coaching ...or a 3rd party observer watching for a possible foul they ha e no business at the table.

In other words I would ask the offender....are you coaching this shot ? If he says no I would tell him to sit his ass down .

Agreed.....

Celophanewrap
07-29-2016, 10:51 AM
As I understand it the coach (capt, or whatever) must remain away from the table. Your guy there was absolutely coaching, how
could you see it any other way and certainly if it were me I'd say something.
Lets' be real though, during weekly play what are you gonna do about it except complain to the LO or some other such authority.
I'd mention it to the coaching person and expect exactly the response you got. Your only option in regular weekly play is to not
sign the score sheet and send in your protest with the fee. Hardly worth the trouble. I'd consider it cheating, and I know that most
of you won't sink to that level, but once the other guy open that door there is absolutely no reason for you not to walk through it
and demonstrate his excess in bending the rules. He's established the precedent, now he has to live with it. Either that or protest
and pay your fee. Not really worth the fist fight you'll be approaching if you get to angry, you know?
However, when a referee is available then I take issue with his "enthusiasm" and put an end to it immediately

justadub
07-29-2016, 11:08 AM
As I understand it the coach (capt, or whatever) must remain away from the table. Your guy there was absolutely coaching, how
could you see it any other way and certainly if it were me I'd say something.
Lets' be real though, during weekly play what are you gonna do about it except complain to the LO or some other such authority.
I'd mention it to the coaching person and expect exactly the response you got. Your only option in regular weekly play is to not
sign the score sheet and send in your protest with the fee. Hardly worth the trouble. I'd consider it cheating, and I know that most
of you won't sink to that level, but once the other guy open that door there is absolutely no reason for you not to walk through it
and demonstrate his excess in bending the rules. He's established the precedent, now he has to live with it. Either that or protest
and pay your fee. Not really worth the fist fight you'll be approaching if you get to angry, you know?
However, when a referee is available then I take issue with his "enthusiasm" and put an end to it immediately

Of course, with today's smart phones, one could easily make sure the LO has an idea of exactly what is going on....

One would think that the moment the camera started rolling, they might change their methods.

Then again, maybe not....

Gorramjayne
07-29-2016, 11:20 AM
Honestly, APA is more about fun and learning to play better than about anything else.

Especially if you're in a cramped environment and people are drinking, it's best to let minor breaches of etiquette slide. The way I see it, if it's a very low-ranked player, you can't begrudge the coach hovering a little bit. If it's a higher-ranked player then it's probably annoying that player more than helping.

The only real problem I'd have in that situation is that it seemed to be delaying the game. If I remember right, APA sets a general guideline of 20-30 seconds average between shots. If you're playing in a venue where everyone has room to be seated and away from the table and the coach is almost walking the player to every shot, sure that's a bit of a problem and you can say something and/or dock them sportsmanship points, because if they keep it up the L/O can step in and penalize them.

I mean some of the shit I've seen in APA... female teammates grinding on each other to distract everyone. I had somebody cross over the table and knock my ball into the corner pocket on the lag keeping theirs out then refuse to re-lag and even their coach claiming that means they won the lag. I've seen people chant 'rail first' at a teammate shooting the eight. Low-ranked players purposefully soft-breaking to the point not even three balls reach the rail and refusing to re-rack. People taking a 15-minute smoke break in the middle of a rack. You just roll with it, shoot your balls, drink your beers, and try to laugh at it. I've been threatened with a knife for trouncing the wrong hothead in a bar, not even a money game, pool can turn ugly if you take it too seriously so take APA for what it is, just a night to go hang with friends, drink, and play a little pool.

Celophanewrap
07-29-2016, 11:43 AM
Honestly, APA is more about fun and learning to play better than about anything else.

I mean some of the shit I've seen in APA... female teammates grinding on each other to distract everyone.

So, um...... where is it that you play again......? :D

bazkook
07-29-2016, 02:01 PM
Definitely coaching IMO. I have seen a similar situation in APA doubles matches where the non-shooting player stood in front of the pocket into his/her partner was shooting. It was not on all shots but it was definitely noticeable after a while. The non-shooting partner was warned about it by our LO and it did not happen again. People will try anything to bend the rules and get over on you. League play is no exception. It is sad that people cheat in a league designed for beginners and intermediate players to enjoy the game.

HawaiianEye
07-29-2016, 03:32 PM
If you need somebody following you around every shot to tell you what to do, you need to be bowling or playing badminton, instead of pool.

I watch some APA games after I bang some balls around each Sunday and it amazes me with their lack of etiquette and just a lack of understanding of the game. Most of the coaching I see going on is an APA 3 trying to tell a 2 how to shoot something when neither one of them could put a ball in with a garden rake.

The APA should have higher ranked players teaching their members how to play before or after the leagues are playing...not during the matches.

There is one guy that I've seen playing for several years and I've yet to see him pocket three balls in a row, in either 8 ball or 9 ball. He comes in a couple hours early each Sunday and sits around and bullshits about how to play and never practices that I notice. Then when the league starts, he breaks out his glove and cheap cue and looks at each shot for about 5 minutes and then misses it. I don't know why nobody brings him to the side after matches and shows him anything.

If I had a team, I'd have him shooting 100% better, at least.

Celophanewrap
07-30-2016, 10:10 AM
If you need somebody following you around every shot to tell you what to do, you need to be bowling or playing badminton, instead of pool.

I watch some APA games after I bang some balls around each Sunday and it amazes me with their lack of etiquette and just a lack of understanding of the game. Most of the coaching I see going on is an APA 3 trying to tell a 2 how to shoot something when neither one of them could put a ball in with a garden rake.

The APA should have higher ranked players teaching their members how to play before or after the leagues are playing...not during the matches.

There is one guy that I've seen playing for several years and I've yet to see him pocket three balls in a row, in either 8 ball or 9 ball. He comes in a couple hours early each Sunday and sits around and bullshits about how to play and never practices that I notice. Then when the league starts, he breaks out his glove and cheap cue and looks at each shot for about 5 minutes and then misses it. I don't know why nobody brings him to the side after matches and shows him anything.

If I had a team, I'd have him shooting 100% better, at least.

Try to keep in mind that this is The APA that's being discussed. I'm sure that if you had a team your's would be focused and serious every minute of every match. For most teams it's Thursday night pool and beer when the only time they pick up a pool cue is on Thursday night. For the most part, there's not much interest in practicing or proper pool etiquette.

For most it's not for money and improving your game, it's for having a good time where everyone would like to win but won't lose any sleep if they don't.

The APA probably really isn't for players like you, not that you wouldn't be welcome, but you'd be bored. You'd breeze through league and playoffs, then your city championships easily qualifying for the nationals, then easily win the prize, no challenge for players at your level.

So players that might get babysat like the subject of this thread, they're there to be with their friends or family, if the friends or family wanted to bowl, shoot darts, go to a cooking class, or spend the evening quilting they'd probably be there with them just for the hangin' out, and by that same token we want them on our teams because they're our friends or family or GF or BF.

For most of the APA it's probably not so much about getting better, but about getting out and being with your group of people. Getting better, if you do, is an ancillary benefit.

nine o nine
07-30-2016, 11:58 AM
Never mind that it's the APA. Rules about coaching, following a player or looking over his shoulder for approval is wrong and should not be accepted. It's not allowed in Vegas so why could it be okay on a local level? It's still competition with drinking and joking secondary.
Want to be out with friends to drink, shoot pool, kibbitz, point out shots??? Go ahead but not on league night.
I'm not an APA player but if I was and coaching shenanigans went on like this I'd find another league. Fortunately for me there are other leagues around that I play in that are more serious but still fun. Mitch

Celophanewrap
07-30-2016, 01:20 PM
Never mind that it's the APA. Rules about coaching, following a player or looking over his shoulder for approval is wrong and should not be accepted. It's not allowed in Vegas so why could it be okay on a local level? It's still competition with drinking and joking secondary.
Want to be out with friends to drink, shoot pool, kibbitz, point out shots??? Go ahead but not on league night.
I'm not an APA player but if I was and coaching shenanigans went on like this I'd find another league. Fortunately for me there are other leagues around that I play in that are more serious but still fun. Mitch

Yes, by most (if not all) rule interpretations it's wrong and a clear rule violation.
Alright then, so it's league night and this is happening, just what do you propose to do? Jump up and start a fist fight over this behavior?
It seems that the OP did all that could be done at the moment. Acceptable or not, you will encounter people that will bend an interpretation
of the rules as far as possible. You notify the LO. What would you do?
Drinking, joking and socializing aren't secondary to everyone, to some people that's why they are there in the first place.

nine o nine
07-30-2016, 07:57 PM
Rabi, What I propose is exactly what I said. I won't play in a league that allows players and coaches to bend the rules. Mitch

Celophanewrap
07-30-2016, 08:27 PM
Rabi, What I propose is exactly what I said. I won't play in a league that allows players and coaches to bend the rules. Mitch

I don't think any league "allows" it, certainly The APA doesn't "allow" it (hence the rule), but it does happen and it happens in every league.

So it's league night and it's happening, so, what do you do? Normally there is no referee
or LO present and available.
It's not really worth starting a physical altercation over, is it?
About all you can do is say something to the opposing player or captain and notify the LO.

lorider
07-30-2016, 09:03 PM
Rabi, What I propose is exactly what I said. I won't play in a league that allows players and coaches to bend the rules. Mitch

No league allows players to bend rules. League members allow other league members to bend rules. If you let opponents bend rules you are adding to the problem ..simple as that.

Now I am no hard ass ...or a push over either. I have let some opponents bend minor rules...in the name of sportsmanship. It depends only opponents attitude mostly.

Below are a few example of what I mean.

I was getting ready to lag and out of the corner of my eye I saw the opposing captain conversing with my score keeper and then saw her erase something on our score sheet...after the lag I went up and asked her what that was about . She said he was complaining about the amount of safes she had marked on his player during the Las match and so she erased them because he was pretty upset and confrontational and she wanted to avoid an argument. I told her to put them back on. After our matches were over the other captain noticed we had put the safes back on and recused to sign our score sheet..i wrote a note on the score sheet detailing what transpired . Later in the week my lo txts me saying I had done the right thing and he would have a talk with this captain.

Sometime later....same captain involved. We are playing double jeapordy ...both 8 and 9 ball at the same time..he wants his player to play the last 8 and 9 ball ..i say she cannot do that. Rules prohibit that. He said be txt the lo and that he could do that if I allowed it. I said its not happening and marked down a forfeit for the last 9 ball as she had already started 8 ball and he had no one available to play 9. Now I could have went along with him but his attitude was what stopped me from bending this rule.

Our by laws allow replays and also going over the 23 limit during regular session as long as both parties agree. Now in almost every case I will allow both situations with any opposing team except the above aforementioned captain and 2 others that are just as big of an asshole as he is.