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Rhea
08-01-2017, 10:19 AM
Siming Chen has shot up to #41 in the world among men and women. She is the #1 female in the world and there are only 40 humans above her skill level, and she is still young and improving.

alphadog
08-01-2017, 10:41 AM
That and 3bucks still wont get her a cup of coffee;)

I for 1 believe women are every bit as capable as men in pursuing the cue sports.

Rhea
08-01-2017, 10:45 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/7952-siming-chen/

Siming Chen has earned more money from pool tournaments this year than any other person on earth, and her career record isnt too shabby either.

easy-e
08-01-2017, 10:47 AM
Siming Chen has shot up to #41 in the world among men and women. She is the #1 female in the world and there are only 40 humans above her Fargo Rate, and she is still young and improving.

I fixed your post. She is very talented.

Icon of Sin
08-01-2017, 10:49 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/7952-siming-chen/

Siming Chen has earned more money from pool tournaments this year than any other person on earth, and her career record isnt too shabby either.

The tournament fields she is competing and getting paid by are much different then the field the average male professional is playing in.

Cardigan Kid
08-01-2017, 01:43 PM
The tournament fields she is competing and getting paid by are much different then the field the average male professional is playing in.

There was a lot of noise recently when McEnroe said Serena Williams would be 700th in the world if she competed with the men in pro tennis.
After all the huffing and puffing, they find the Letterman interview with her where she said it's a completely different game in the men's division, more power, more spin, etc. And admitted she would be no where near the top on the pro tour.

I would love to see Siming Chen compete for a full season on the men's euro tour.
Maybe even a full season on the joss northeast 9-ball tour.

After watching Karen Corr compete at the highest levels on the men's tour, im most certain women can compete. But can they ever break the top 50 in the world if playing only men's division tournaments? I'd like to see her attempt it for sure.

Rhea
08-01-2017, 05:44 PM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

easy-e
08-01-2017, 06:45 PM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

Why do you say they play even? Did he say that?

Black-Balled
08-01-2017, 06:56 PM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

She don't want any part of having to play that boy every day!

Jesus!

one stroke
08-01-2017, 07:49 PM
She don't want any part of having to play that boy every day!

Jesus!

Humm that "Boy" might have a harder time than you think playing her she plays every bit as good as she looks that's a few games on the wire right there


1

JumpinJoe
08-01-2017, 08:30 PM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

lmao. You have never been to sharp. (You did give me the 7 or 8 ball, I recall)
Can you get her over here to play him, like yesterday.
She could probably make more then all them tournaments she has to win

PoolBum
08-01-2017, 09:58 PM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

Give us the report on when they played and how it turned out.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 04:02 AM
Humm that "Boy" might have a harder time than you think playing her she plays every bit as good as she looks that's a few games on the wire right there


1

If that was a joke, then haha.

Otherwise, that is a real joke.

Somebody shuff's speed is hijacking all woman pros in all sets, unless the are to single digits...and I'd say sky is playing better rotation than shuff at this time.

Nostroke
08-02-2017, 04:44 AM
Jay said years ago Simeng is capable of winning a men's event. Not the favorite of course but if she entered a bunch, she might win one.

Rhea
08-02-2017, 05:04 AM
She could win several shes a solid 782 and continuing to climb. Even most men arent a 782 or higher there are 3 or 4 american men that could compete at her level

easy-e
08-02-2017, 05:35 AM
She could win several shes a solid 782 and continuing to climb. Even most men arent a 782 or higher there are 3 or 4 american men that could compete at her level

I'm starting to think you're just having fun with us. Well played!

one stroke
08-02-2017, 06:07 AM
If that was a joke, then haha.

Otherwise, that is a real joke.

Somebody shuff's speed is hijacking all woman pros in all sets, unless the are to single digits...and I'd say sky is playing better rotation than shuff at this time.

WPA 9 on the spot 9 ball , Sky doesn't have to like it ,,Brandon or his speed you got action


1

Kris_b1104
08-02-2017, 06:10 AM
She could win several shes a solid 782 and continuing to climb. Even most men arent a 782 or higher there are 3 or 4 american men that could compete at her level

If all the tournaments I entered had a bunch of D players then my Fargo Rate would also be a 782.

P.S. I play even with Shane VanBoening, he doesn't know it yet though because we've never played a game together.

Nostroke
08-02-2017, 06:17 AM
If all the tournaments I entered had a bunch of D players then my Fargo Rate would also be a 782.

P.S. I play even with Shane VanBoening, he doesn't know it yet though because we've never played a game together.

No it wouldn't-You can't get a high rating by beating low rated players. The whole system is based on the level of players that you beat and who they have beaten.

easy-e
08-02-2017, 06:20 AM
No it wouldn't-You can't get a high rating by beating low rated players. The whole system is based on the level of players that you beat and who they have beaten.

Do you think this young lady's rating would be as high as it is if she were sharing the table with Orcullo, SVB, Alex, Thorsten, etc on the reg?

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 06:28 AM
WPA 9 on the spot 9 ball , Sky doesn't have to like it ,,Brandon or his speed you got action


1

You are a maniac!

Nostroke
08-02-2017, 06:28 AM
Do you think this young lady's rating would be as high as it is if she were sharing the table with Orcullo, SVB, Alex, Thorsten, etc on the reg?

She would be close to her current level imo-All those guys are above her on Fargo so i dont think losing mostly to them would lower her level and if she beat a few, her level would rise.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 06:31 AM
Do you think this young lady's rating would be as high as it is if she were sharing the table with Orcullo, SVB, Alex, Thorsten, etc on the reg?

Shit, i think she wouldnt even have stuck with the pro game, if she had to be in the general population events.

easy-e
08-02-2017, 06:32 AM
She would be close to her current level imo-All those guys are above her on Fargo so i dont think losing mostly to them would lower her level and if she beat a few, her level would rise.

Maybe. I'm just guessing she would get beat to the shot almost every time, and spend a fair amount of her time in the chair. Something she may not be used to.

easy-e
08-02-2017, 06:35 AM
Shit, i think she wouldnt even have stuck with the pro game, if she had to be in the general population events.

gen-pop is a nasty place.

mikepage
08-02-2017, 07:25 AM
Do you think this young lady's rating would be as high as it is if she were sharing the table with Orcullo, SVB, Alex, Thorsten, etc on the reg?

I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Sure, initially she wouldn't be accustomed to the degree of return-fire. But it is not like she is unaccustomed to the TV table, late rounds of major events, the pressure of needing to come through when it matters. In fact, she has more under-the-lights experience than male players who play at her level.

And when we look at this initial goofiness, remember it is a two-way street. If she played a similarly-rated male, the monkey may be on the back of the male player--the one who, by conventional wisdom--isn't supposed to lose.

Siming's record over the last four years (since age 19) against the top western players (Allison, Jasmin, Kelly, and Karen) is 96 wins, 68 losses --basically playing 67 points above this competition. It takes a pretty high male pro to match that record.

easy-e
08-02-2017, 07:33 AM
I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Sure, initially she wouldn't be accustomed to the degree of return-fire. But it is not like she is unaccustomed to the TV table, late rounds of major events, the pressure of needing to come through when it matters. In fact, she has more under-the-lights experience than male players who play at her level.

And when we look at this initial goofiness, remember it is a two-way street. If she played a similarly-rated male, the monkey may be on the back of the male player--the one who, by conventional wisdom--isn't supposed to lose.

Siming's record over the last four years (since age 19) against the top western players (Allison, Jasmin, Kelly, and Karen) is 96 wins, 68 losses --basically playing 67 points above this competition. It takes a pretty high male pro to match that record.

I think she'd be overwhelmed, but what do I know?

JumpinJoe
08-02-2017, 07:46 AM
Is there anyone in here willing to fly her over here and stake her? I'll take care of sky's side.

Let's make the match happen.

We will play 9 ball, her best game. In a pool room, on broken in cloth. Rack your own.

Let's dance.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 08:34 AM
Is there anyone in here willing to fly her over here and stake her? I'll take care of sky's side.

Let's make the match happen.

We will play 9 ball, her best game. In a pool room, on broken in cloth. Rack your own.

Let's dance.

No, joe. Nobody who knows pool and will bet a stack wants the lady's half of that.

Well, maybe some dude like fatboy would do it, just to watch you squirm...but then it would need to be a race to 5 or less.

I keep telling them about the women pros who would come to our little local tournaments and not cash...EVER. many never won a set an one big name came thru 2x and didnt win a GAME, two separate times.

one stroke
08-02-2017, 08:42 AM
Is there anyone in here willing to fly her over here and stake her? I'll take care of sky's side.

Let's make the match happen.

We will play 9 ball, her best game. In a pool room, on broken in cloth. Rack your own.

Let's dance.

Well since she is the draw by a landslide I'd say you got to go to her ,,


1

easy-e
08-02-2017, 08:45 AM
Well since she is the draw by a landslide I'd say you got to go to her ,,


1

She's the "draw"?:kiss:

one stroke
08-02-2017, 08:52 AM
No, joe. Nobody who knows pool and will bet a stack wants the lady's half of that.

Well, maybe some dude like fatboy would do it, just to watch you squirm...but then it would need to be a race to 5 or less.

I keep telling them about the women pros who would come to our little local tournaments and not cash...EVER. many never won a set an one big name came thru 2x and didnt win a GAME, two separate times.

You mean like Karen who has won a APT event and finished 2 at Turning Stone ,


1

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 08:55 AM
You mean like Karen who has won a APT event and finished 2 at Turning Stone ,


1

Yes, players he level.

Rhea
08-02-2017, 09:12 AM
Yes, players he level.

Karen plays good, Siming Chen smokes Karen period shes hands down more than twice as good as Karen

easy-e
08-02-2017, 09:15 AM
Karen plays good, Siming Chen smokes Karen period shes hands down more than twice as good as Karen

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
:slap:
:killingme::killingme::killingme:

easy-e
08-02-2017, 09:19 AM
Karen plays good, Siming Chen smokes Karen period shes hands down more than twice as good as Karen

Then why isn't her Fargo rate 1458?

mikepage
08-02-2017, 09:20 AM
No, joe. Nobody who knows pool and will bet a stack wants the lady's half of that.

[...]
I keep telling them about the women pros who would come to our little local tournaments and not cash...EVER. many never won a set an one big name came thru 2x and didnt win a GAME, two separate times.

This is not rocket science.

If someone claims X and Y play even, and you think Y tortures X

you are supposed to offer something for which YOU think Y still has the advantage, and the other person thinks X has the advantage...

Without this, there'd be as many offers for big action as we have coins in our pockets....

You think this penny will come up heads? Well I've got 30K that says you're wrong; you just need to fly around the world, put up 30K, and flip....

Positively Ralf
08-02-2017, 09:22 AM
so has she overtaken Chezka Centeno(sp?) as the next big female name in the pool world? Not that Centeno has been around forever, but I remember a few months ago she was making a huge splash.

Rhea
08-02-2017, 09:26 AM
so has she overtaken Chezka Centeno(sp?) as the next big female name in the pool world? Not that Centeno has been around forever, but I remember a few months ago she was making a huge splash.

Yes, Chezka (757) is only #6 in the world, we are talking about the #1 female in the world

easy-e
08-02-2017, 09:30 AM
This is not rocket science.

If someone claims X and Y play even, and you think Y tortures X

you are supposed to offer something for which YOU think Y still has the advantage, and the other person thinks X has the advantage...


It's the intangibles. Can I ask you a hypothetical question?

Respectfully, if this Chen lady played a male pro of equal Fargo rating several times (long races) and lost, what would you say the problem was?

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 09:32 AM
Karen plays good, Siming Chen smokes Karen period shes hands down more than twice as good as Karen

Karen of today and karen of yesterday arent the same.

Icon of Sin
08-02-2017, 09:36 AM
Siming's record over the last four years (since age 19) against the top western players (Allison, Jasmin, Kelly, and Karen) is 96 wins, 68 losses --basically playing 67 points above this competition. It takes a pretty high male pro to match that record.

Do you think she could maintain the same record against the likes of SVB, Woodward, Orcollo and the Ko brothers?

easy-e
08-02-2017, 09:38 AM
I already asked him that. He replied:

"I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Sure, initially she wouldn't be accustomed to the degree of return-fire. But it is not like she is unaccustomed to the TV table, late rounds of major events, the pressure of needing to come through when it matters. In fact, she has more under-the-lights experience than male players who play at her level.

And when we look at this initial goofiness, remember it is a two-way street. If she played a similarly-rated male, the monkey may be on the back of the male player--the one who, by conventional wisdom--isn't supposed to lose.

Siming's record over the last four years (since age 19) against the top western players (Allison, Jasmin, Kelly, and Karen) is 96 wins, 68 losses --basically playing 67 points above this competition. It takes a pretty high male pro to match that record."

For the record, I disagree (as do many others). Maybe I'm just a sexist pig.

JumpinJoe
08-02-2017, 10:32 AM
This is not rocket science.

If someone claims X and Y play even, and you think Y tortures X

you are supposed to offer something for which YOU think Y still has the advantage, and the other person thinks X has the advantage...

Without this, there'd be as many offers for big action as we have coins in our pockets....

You think this penny will come up heads? Well I've got 30K that says you're wrong; you just need to fly around the world, put up 30K, and flip....

I got 30k, I'll put up.
Get her over here, and I'll show you how bad the FARGO is.

LAMas
08-02-2017, 10:45 AM
A few years ago Jay Helfert predicted great things for her.

Kris_b1104
08-02-2017, 10:53 AM
A few years ago Jay Helfert predicted great things for her.

But she isn't from the Phillipines so what does he know?

/s

minh2015
08-02-2017, 12:27 PM
I got 30k, I'll put up.
Get her over here, and I'll show you how bad the FARGO is.

You might have action if you bring Sky to China. Show us where the balls belong.

easy-e
08-02-2017, 12:28 PM
You might have action if you bring Sky to China. Show us where the balls belong.

lol. Yeah! Travel to China because you "might" have action! Balls totally in your court now, Joe!

minh2015
08-02-2017, 01:18 PM
lol. Yeah! Travel to China because you "might" have action! Balls totally in your court now, Joe!

"Might" meaning your challenge might be accepted. Term, conditions and money will be posted way before you even book a ticket.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 01:33 PM
"Might" meaning your challenge might be accepted. Term, conditions and money will be posted way before you even book a ticket.

Can you play a part?

There have been famous male/ female challenges before...

iusedtoberich
08-02-2017, 01:45 PM
If she was the gambling type, I'd bet every single male in the top world Fargo 100 would play her. Even if they watched her beat their male peers. It would just be an ego thing.

It would be the action of the century. She could play a different male pro every week for 2 years, and they'd keep lining up, even if she won many matches.

It could also be a good promotion for pool amongst the banger population. The battle of the sexes.

It will never happen but it's fun to think about.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 01:55 PM
And when done with that, shed be a beast on the ladies tour.If she was the gambling type, I'd bet every single male in the top world Fargo 100 would play her. Even if they watched her beat their male peers. It would just be an ego thing.

It would be the action of the century. She could play a different male pro every week for 2 years, and they'd keep lining up, even if she won many matches.

It could also be a good promotion for pool amongst the banger population. The battle of the sexes.

It will never happen but it's fun to think about.

Nick B
08-02-2017, 01:56 PM
This battle of the sexes Bobby Riggs vs. Billie Jean King thing has been overdone. I would estimate the VERY BEST FEMALE on the planet would have no chance with a legitimate Top 100 male pro (long race to 50 or better playing 10 ball) and a severe underdog in anyone above top 250. That's just the truth. Yes I know Karen Corr etc...etc. Fine player but in the long run no chance. Stealing a set here and there doesn't make it so. Statistical anomaly because she can play but is not top tier men speed.

I remember when Allison F battled a way past his prime Grady in that battle of the sexes thing. Allison was Queen of the female universe and Mr. Mathews best before date had long gone (not that he was ever a Top Tier Pro...great student, thinker and gambler). Throw out your female champion against SVB, Alex, Dennis or Jayson S plus 20 others in a long race and you'll need to call a coroner.

Anything else is just silly.

jasonlaus
08-02-2017, 02:01 PM
This battle of the sexes Bobby Riggs vs. Billie Jean King thing has been overdone. I would estimate the VERY BEST FEMALE on the planet would have no chance with a legitimate Top 100 male pro (long race to 50 or better playing 10 ball) and a severe underdog in anyone above top 250. That's just the truth. Yes I know Karen Corr etc...etc. Fine player but in the long run no chance. Stealing a set here and there doesn't make it so. Statistical anomaly because she can play but is not top tier men speed.

I remember when Allison F battled a way past his prime Grady in that battle of the sexes thing. Allison was Queen of the female universe and Mr. Mathews best before date had long gone (not that he was ever a Top Tier Pro...great student, thinker and gambler). Throw out your female champion against SVB, Alex, Dennis or Jayson S plus 20 others in a long race and you'll need to call a coroner.

Anything else is just silly.

Well, according to fargo alone theres 40+ men that play better, way to go out on a limb here. What I wouldnt give to be in the top 50 on Fargo, but that means nothing to some of you, cause you are all in the top 10......from the keyboard anyway.

Jason

Nick B
08-02-2017, 02:03 PM
Well, according to fargo alone theres 40+ men that play better, way to go out on a limb here. What I wouldnt give to be in the top 50 on Fargo, but that means nothing to some of you, cause you are all in the top 10......from the keyboard anyway.

Jason

Just to be clear. The top 50 CRUSH her (and I was referring to the BEST female regardless of Fargo). The Top 250 beat her well done on 9-10 nights.

alphadog
08-02-2017, 02:10 PM
Just to be clear. The top 50 CRUSH her (and I was referring to the BEST female regardless of Fargo). The Top 250 beat her well done on 9-10 nights.

Damn Nick they legalize weed in Canada?

Nick B
08-02-2017, 02:13 PM
In Vancouver it's been semi legal for at least 10 plus years. You really got to try hard to get busted (sell it to a 10 Year old type stupid). As for me I'm stupid enough without compounding the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ChicagoRJ
08-02-2017, 02:19 PM
During the 1998 Australian Open, sisters Serena and Venus Williams boasted that they could beat any man ranked outside the world's top 200. The challenge was accepted by Karsten Braasch, a German player ranked No 203. Before the matches, Braasch played a round of golf in the morning, drank a couple of beers, smoked a few cigarettes, and then played the Williams sisters for a set each, one after the other. He defeated Serena, 6-1, and Venus, 6-2. Serena said afterwards "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."

*********

Yeah, neither of these terrific woman tennis players went down this road ever again ;)

jay helfert
08-02-2017, 02:19 PM
All you guys are talking about a long gambling match. The Fargo Ratings are only determined by recorded tournament play, so it does not apply to marathon gambling matches by either men or women. I seriously doubt whether Siming wants or needs to play any money matches, since she already makes a healthy living from what's she doing now. I promise you her endorsement and sponsorship deals dwarf those of any of the top men, with Shane perhaps being not so far behind her. In China the top women players are sports celebrities and well known faces on commercials and billboards. I'm sure she could care less about beating Joe Blow for ten grand in a race to 100.

All that said, I will say this once again for all to hear. The absolute best women pool players in the world are coming out of China. They are better than any who have come before them! If eight or ten of these women came over here and played our regional tours, they would make a mess of things for the guys, winning some events and making multiple high money cashes (top five). If you want to talk tournament pool then the second level pros in this country wouldn't have to like it and only the very best regional players would be beating any of them on a regular basis.

If Siming ever decided to play in the U.S. Open or a similar event with men, I will be glad to make some side wagers on her matches, against anyone who is not a top 50 pro and I might extend that to the top 25 with a game or two on the wire. This ain't tennis folks, no strength required to push those pool balls around the table. Those kind of comparisons don't apply here.

one stroke
08-02-2017, 02:35 PM
During the 1998 Australian Open, sisters Serena and Venus Williams boasted that they could beat any man ranked outside the world's top 200. The challenge was accepted by Karsten Braasch, a German player ranked No 203. Before the matches, Braasch played a round of golf in the morning, drank a couple of beers, smoked a few cigarettes, and then played the Williams sisters for a set each, one after the other. He defeated Serena, 6-1, and Venus, 6-2. Serena said afterwards "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."

*********

Yeah, neither of these terrific woman tennis players went down this road ever again ;)

Big Big difference between the 2 not even comparable

1

one stroke
08-02-2017, 02:41 PM
Just to be clear. The top 50 CRUSH her (and I was referring to the BEST female regardless of Fargo). The Top 250 beat her well done on 9-10 nights.

More like she could go from pool hall to pool hall and beat the house 9 outa 10 places


1

Icon of Sin
08-02-2017, 02:45 PM
..........

Nick B
08-02-2017, 03:05 PM
More like she could go from pool hall to pool hall and beat the house 9 outa 10 places


1


Ahhhh until Dennis Hatch, Josh Roberts, Justin B, Oscar etc rolls in.

Danimal
08-02-2017, 03:50 PM
To add a little perspective, at the Steinway Open last year I witnessed a young Taiwanese female pro, Tsu-Chien "Gina" Wei knock out Billy Thorpe (although he was admittedly under the weather), before she was narrowly defeated hill-hill by Raj Hundal. She plays really well, but is clearly below Siming Chen's speed.

All that said, I will say this once again for all to hear. The absolute best women pool players in the world are coming out of China.

Don't forget Chezka Centeno out of the Philippines. I stood next to Darren at the US Open last October as she was running away with her match against Donny Mills, and Appleton commented for all to hear that she will have the stuff to win this tournament in several years.

smashmouth
08-02-2017, 03:53 PM
on her best day I don't think she beats a prime Karen Corr or Allison Fischer or Monica Fischer

she can barely get by right now a teenage Chezka who will have no peers at all in a couple of years if she continues her ascent

she would not crack the world's top 10 000 men at this moment

if she could actually crack the top 100 which fargo rtings suggest , that would place her higher than almost any women in any sport ever that could compete with male top 100

easy-e
08-02-2017, 04:27 PM
on her best day I don't think she beats a prime Karen Corr or Allison Fischer or Monica Fischer

she can barely get by right now a teenage Chezka who will have no peers at all in a couple of years if she continues her ascent

she would not crack the world's top 10 000 men at this moment

if she could actually crack the top 100 which fargo rtings suggest , that would place her higher than almost any women in any sport ever that could compete with male top 100

10,000 might be a little steep, lol. But I hear ya.

one stroke
08-02-2017, 04:34 PM
To add a little perspective, at the Steinway Open last year I witnessed a young Taiwanese female pro, Tsu-Chien "Gina" Wei knock out Billy Thorpe (although he was admittedly under the weather), before she was narrowly defeated hill-hill by Raj Hundal. She plays really well, but is clearly below Siming Chen's speed.



Don't forget Chezka Centeno out of the Philippines. I stood next to Darren at the US Open last October as she was running away with her match against Donny Mills, and Appleton commented for all to hear that she will have the stuff to win this tournament in several years.

Oh no ones forgot about her I expect we will see her in big money matches against men in the near future

1

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 05:04 PM
More like she could go from pool hall to pool hall and beat the house 9 outa 10 places


1
Yeah, she might stick me up, but i get flat out robbed by a LOT of people in the US.

Please dont make me look farther.

Black-Balled
08-02-2017, 05:06 PM
Ahhhh until Dennis Hatch, Josh Roberts, Justin B, Oscar etc rolls in.

And a step or 3 up still exists too. Ow.

ChicagoRJ
08-02-2017, 05:43 PM
Big Big difference between the 2 not even comparable

1

Of course, ask Allison Fisher if there is a difference, she thinks there is. Hey, but what does the most decorated Women's player that ever played in the US really know, right ;)

This is a PC culture so we are not allowed to talk about things.

Sorry, not a "knock" on woman in the least. Men will never stop wars and killings, that in sheer numbers of the last thousand years is just unimaginable. If woman ran the world, it might be a better place. Of course, whose gonna get my beer when that happens... I'm kidding, lighten up ;)

mikepage
08-02-2017, 07:15 PM
on her best day I don't think she beats a prime Karen Corr or Allison Fischer or Monica Fischer

she can barely get by right now a teenage Chezka who will have no peers at all in a couple of years if she continues her ascent

she would not crack the world's top 10 000 men at this moment

if she could actually crack the top 100 which fargo rtings suggest , that would place her higher than almost any women in any sport ever that could compete with male top 100

In sports like swimming, running, etc, there seems to be about a 10% gap between males and females that doesn't appear to be going away and likely is related to height, muscle mass, endurance, hormones, etc.

But it took a LONG time of women training and competing in high numbers to get there. The gap used to be much bigger.

Pool is at those early stages. Many more men than women do it at a serious competitive level. So the question is if more women played seriously, would the big gap we see now remain? get to some small value and not get any smaller? go away?

I think it will more or less go away. My daughter-in-law (ok, ex-daughter in law) is a good poker player. That is another activity dominated by men for no obvious reason other than general participation levels (and like pool, it is not a particularly welcoming environment for women). She finished last year by some index in the top 100 amongst poker players. there's no particular reason she couldn't be at the top. Likely that will just require more women like her.

Regardless, all this talk about how Siming Chen couldn't compete with other players at a similar rating as her is just kind of silly.

BeiberLvr
08-02-2017, 07:32 PM
This ain't tennis folks, no strength required to push those pool balls around the table. Those kind of comparisons don't apply here.

Jay,

With all due respect. Please. Just stop.

The reason the best male pool players will always be favored against the best female pool players has absolutely nothing to do with physical strength.

one stroke
08-02-2017, 07:50 PM
Jay,

With all due respect. Please. Just stop.

The reason the best male pool players will always be favored against the best female pool players has absolutely nothing to do with physical strength.

We are not talking about the best against the best , we were talking Sky and anyone Shuff speed , I said Sky doesn't have to like it in a shorter race Rea thinks it's even based on Fargo I'm not all in there but down to Shuff's Fargo rate that's a whole different matter ,

1

Johnnyt
08-02-2017, 07:57 PM
Cheska doesn't play in many tournaments compared to Chen. She is a gambler and everyday in action. Let her play as many tournaments as Chen and other female players and she will be #1 woman in the world by a lot. Right now in tournaments she shoots at too many tough shots. When she settles down in tournaments, learns when too play safe, she will go right to the top in women's pool. Johnnyt

one stroke
08-02-2017, 08:01 PM
In sports like swimming, running, etc, there seems to be about a 10% gap between males and females that doesn't appear to be going away and likely is related to height, muscle mass, endurance, hormones, etc.

But it took a LONG time of women training and competing in high numbers to get there. The gap used to be much bigger.

Pool is at those early stages. Many more men than women do it at a serious competitive level. So the question is if more women played seriously, would the big gap we see now remain? get to some small value and not get any smaller? go away?

I think it will more or less go away. My daughter-in-law (ok, ex-daughter in law) is a good poker player. That is another activity dominated by men for no obvious reason other than general participation levels (and like pool, it is not a particularly welcoming environment for women). She finished last year by some index in the top 100 amongst poker players. there's no particular reason she couldn't be at the top. Likely that will just require more women like her.

Regardless, all this talk about how Siming Chen couldn't compete with other players at a similar rating as her is just kind of silly.

Well since I've stepped on it I'm with you part way however I'm still always off from believing it's apples and apples , she might hang with Sky for a shorter race I can't see her hanging in a longer race , however drop down 40 points and let's call this market correction, I'm pretty sure she can hang in that group from what my eyes tell me ,,

1

gxman
08-02-2017, 08:07 PM
I think she might be able to play even with the males in the 750 fargo range(ex. Billy Thorpe).

I dont think fargo 781 females is equal to 781 males. They don't play each other enough to get an accurate scoring.

mikepage
08-02-2017, 08:40 PM
I think she might be able to play even with the males in the 750 fargo range(ex. Billy Thorpe).

I dont think fargo 781 females is equal to 781 males. They don't play each other enough to get an accurate scoring.

Here is an example of one of many kinds of connections that go into it.

Look at Vivian Villarreal, rated 675

In the past three years, she has played both men and women. The top 3 men she played were Oscar, Mitch Ellerman, and Max Eberle, average rating of 751.

Of the 35 games against these 3, she won 15 and lost 20

She also played 3 of the top 10 women (5 matches)

Xiao-Fang Fu, Ga-Young Kim, and Chieh-Yu Chao have an average rating of 761, a little over the guys.

Against these 3, Vivian won 19 and lost 49. They pretty much dominate her.
This is not that much data, but other similar comparisons reinforce it.

GideonF
08-02-2017, 09:09 PM
Do you think she could maintain the same record against the likes of SVB, Woodward, Orcollo and the Ko brothers?

If you mean the winning record (like 90-something to 60-something), clearly Mike doesn't believe that with the likes of SVB, Orcollo, the Ko brothers, (or Shaw or various other super elite players mentioned by others in this thread). Not only would no one believe that, it goes completely against Fargo - all of those players are way above her on Fargo and therefore she should have a losing record against them.

If you are asking if Mike believes that she would have the same Fargo rating if it was computed based on competing with the men, then Mike does believe that, and has posted a video showing that Karen's Fargo rating is the same if you look at her games only against men vs only against women.

Mike has also done other comparisons of how players do generally when competing against much better players as opposed to peers and much worse players, and the stats suggest (to my surprise) that the Fargo algorithm sorts it out pretty well and the numbers work out about the same.

Now, obviously even if you think players are even, you can try to gain an advantage by picking things that favour that player. So you can say "play 10b", as one poster did, knowing that the 10b break is harder probably favours a male pro like Sky (and also that she probably rarely plays the game at all). Or a condition like long races (which a Sky or Oscar are used to, which she doesn't play), or dirty cloth, or foreign soil.

There is a reason that Alex Pagulayan's offer to play anyone in a race to 100 for $100k was limited to 9b and 9b on the spot (IIRC). Or when Corey beat Biado playing bar table 8b at the DCC this year - when I think Biado crushes today's Corey in a long 10b race on a 9'. Biado just wasn't familiar with bar table 8b and didn't know the break, among issues.

Again, on that point, look how Sky got barbecued when he went to the Philippines not to long ago and played their game on their tables with their conditions. I think Sky does way better against those players playing on Diamonds with Simonis at home, and probably likes his action even more if they playing bar table.

Now some might say that all of these things I've referred to aren't determinable in Fargo, and that's true. And Mike may argue that our intuition actually overstates the value of these factors, which may be true. But I don't think any of that changes the fact that Siming is somewhere close to where Fargo says she is.

Personally, I would love to see all these people who are saying she can't beat a guy ranked 250 put up some serious money. I'd be curious who would be ranked around that speed (it might well be someone like Shuff or maybe Brian Parks, but I'd certainly put some money on Siming in a reasonable 9b race.

JumpinJoe
08-02-2017, 11:25 PM
You might have action if you bring Sky to China. Show us where the balls belong.

That's not happening EVER.

I will bet it here though, and in Houston where I live. In a pool room, and on broken in cloth, none of that phony bunt the ball around new cloth. The money's here, I'm the bettor, no need to go somewhere and "hope" there's action. You round up your end or whomever and I'll post it before play.

They can race to like 100 on 4 1/4 pockets, worn cloth, diamond table, delta rack.
You can pick the game, 8, 9 or 10 ball.

Let's make it happen. I'll stream it for free.

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 12:12 AM
That's not happening EVER.

I will bet it here though, and in Houston where I live. In a pool room, and on broken in cloth, none of that phony bunt the ball around new cloth. The money's here, I'm the bettor, no need to go somewhere and "hope" there's action. You round up your end or whomever and I'll post it before play.

They can race to like 100 on 4 1/4 pockets, worn cloth, diamond table, delta rack.
You can pick the game, 8, 9 or 10 ball.

Let's make it happen. I'll stream it for free.

Anything else you want to make it "fair" ? What day and what time does it have to be played? Can she get used to the time change, or does she have to play as soon as she lands? Does the humidity have to be at a certain level????

Believe it or not, both sides are the bettors, unless you pay if you lose, and get nothing if you win.
Jason<----thinks somebody^^^^^ is rabid

PocketSpeed11
08-03-2017, 12:37 AM
Well, according to fargo alone theres 40+ men that play better, way to go out on a limb here. What I wouldnt give to be in the top 50 on Fargo, but that means nothing to some of you, cause you are all in the top 10......from the keyboard anyway.

Jason

Don't get upset just because he offended your politically correct sensibilities.

jay helfert
08-03-2017, 12:47 AM
Jay,

With all due respect. Please. Just stop.

The reason the best male pool players will always be favored against the best female pool players has absolutely nothing to do with physical strength.

And for exactly that reason there are women today already pushing the envelope in Pool, more so than has been the case in the past. The best women players are already a pretty good match for ANYBODY in a tournament setting, with normal length races. I don't care who you're talking about, they better get up there and play if they are matched up against one of the top women. I saw what Karen did to Ko at the U.S. Open two years ago.....DESTROYED him! She took on a pretty strong field (128 players) at Turning Stone and went to the finals! And what I'm saying is that there are a dozen or more women right now in Asia who play as good or better than Karen.

The second level pros in this country are NOT favorites over these women in a tournament setting. It's a toss up at best. I can see where I will make some money in the future, off all the guys who think a player like Siming can't beat a good man player in a tournament match. PLEASE keep thinking exactly what you're thinking now!

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 03:36 AM
Don't get upset just because he offended your politically correct sensibilities.

You must have me confused with somebody else.

The difference is, I WILL bet if she ever gets here. Why don't we start at #500 on fargo amd work our way to, say #50 since she is such a dog against all these guys.
Jason.

If you think you can make more, we can start at #1,000, since surely they can beat her in your opinion

BeiberLvr
08-03-2017, 03:42 AM
We are not talking about the best against the best , we were talking Sky and anyone Shuff speed , I said Sky doesn't have to like it in a shorter race Rea thinks it's even based on Fargo I'm not all in there but down to Shuff's Fargo rate that's a whole different matter ,

1

Of course in a short race, she can beat (probably) anyone in the world.

BeiberLvr
08-03-2017, 04:31 AM
And for exactly that reason there are women today already pushing the envelope in Pool, more so than has been the case in the past. The best women players are already a pretty good match for ANYBODY in a tournament setting, with normal length races. I don't care who you're talking about, they better get up there and play if they are matched up against one of the top women. I saw what Karen did to Ko at the U.S. Open two years ago.....DESTROYED him! She took on a pretty strong field (128 players) at Turning Stone and went to the finals! And what I'm saying is that there are a dozen or more women right now in Asia who play as good or better than Karen.

The second level pros in this country are NOT favorites over these women in a tournament setting. It's a toss up at best. I can see where I will make some money in the future, off all the guys who think a player like Siming can't beat a good man player in a tournament match. PLEASE keep thinking exactly what you're thinking now!




I don't think you understand the debate.

No one (to my knowledge) is saying a woman can't beat a man in a tournament.

I remember the Karen/Ko match, and it was definitely an upset. If they played the same format, under the same conditions, everyday for the rest of your life.

Who would your money be on? Be honest.

garczar
08-03-2017, 04:46 AM
Here is an example of one of many kinds of connections that go into it.

Look at Vivian Villarreal, rated 675

In the past three years, she has played both men and women. The top 3 men she played were Oscar, Mitch Ellerman, and Max Eberle, average rating of 751.

Of the 35 games against these 3, she won 15 and lost 20

She also played 3 of the top 10 women (5 matches)

Xiao-Fang Fu, Ga-Young Kim, and Chieh-Yu Chao have an average rating of 761, a little over the guys.

Against these 3, Vivian won 19 and lost 49. They pretty much dominate her.
This is not that much data, but other similar comparisons reinforce it.Vivian has been a pr story her whole career. All that Tornado/Hurricane wtf'ever they call her. Even in her so-called prime she was just a short-stop. I remember one of the first times A. Fisher played her. What a joke. Never been overly impressed with VV's game.

Nostroke
08-03-2017, 04:53 AM
I don't think you understand the debate.

No one (to my knowledge) is saying a woman can't beat a man in a tournament.

I remember the Karen/Ko match, and it was definitely an upset. If they played the same format, under the same conditions, everyday for the rest of your life.

Who would your money be on? Be honest.


Fargo says bet on KO

BeiberLvr
08-03-2017, 05:07 AM
Fargo says bet on KO

Common sense says bet on KO

one stroke
08-03-2017, 05:16 AM
Anything else you want to make it "fair" ? What day and what time does it have to be played? Can she get used to the time change, or does she have to play as soon as she lands? Does the humidity have to be at a certain level????

Believe it or not, both sides are the bettors, unless you pay if you lose, and get nothing if you win.
Jason<----thinks somebody^^^^^ is rabid

Real easy to blow smoke when you know it ain't happening


1

Rhea
08-03-2017, 05:20 AM
Vivian has been a pr story her whole career. All that Tornado/Hurricane wtf'ever they call her. Even in her so-called prime she was just a short-stop. I remember one of the first times A. Fisher played her. What a joke. Never been overly impressed with VV's game.

Vivian Villareal isnt even a 700 player, no female in the USA is over 685 at the moment, I think its comparing apples to oranges to compare Vivian Villareal to Siming Chen, Siming is over 100 more FargoRate higher than Vivian, and Siming Chen can flat out play period.

easy-e
08-03-2017, 05:20 AM
Real easy to blow smoke when you know it ain't happening


1

If you look at this thread objectively, isn't everyone blowing smoke? Sky and this chick aren't going to play a long set, so we're all kind of guessing.

one stroke
08-03-2017, 05:21 AM
Of course in a short race, she can beat (probably) anyone in the world.

And a race to 100 is a race that takes more than just skill it takes endurance of mind and body ,, race to 25 offers a little of both and will bare out the best player more times than not


1

Nostroke
08-03-2017, 05:24 AM
Common sense says bet on KO

Definitely. It's just good to have Fargo confirm it.

GideonF
08-03-2017, 05:53 AM
Vivian Villareal isnt even a 700 player, no female in the USA is over 685 at the moment, I think its comparing apples to oranges to compare Vivian Villareal to Siming Chen, Siming is over 100 more FargoRate higher than Vivian, and Siming Chen can flat out play period.



Karen isn't over 685?


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Rhea
08-03-2017, 06:01 AM
Karen isn't over 685?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Karen is a 729 at most, and she represents IRL not USA on fargorate

mikepage
08-03-2017, 06:13 AM
[...]Never been overly impressed with VV's game.

My point is not about Vivian's game. My point is about comparing, say, Oscar's game to Siming's game --when they've never played. They both beat Vivian. And if they both tend to beat Vivian by a similar margin, that is evidence they play at a similar level. That's a weak link. But there are a lot of these weak links. Here are a few other common opponents for those two.

GideonF
08-03-2017, 06:15 AM
Karen is a 729 at most, and she represents IRL not USA on fargorate



Okay, but you said no female in the US - which she clearly is. If you meant no American woman, I could understand. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs.


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Rhea
08-03-2017, 06:26 AM
Okay, but you said no female in the US - which she clearly is. If you meant no American woman, I could understand. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm not going to argue about this, FargoRate does not consider Karen or Allison to represent USA.

If all you had to do is come live here then Siming Chen could do that too and be the best female in the USA. Actually if Siming Chen moved to any country on earth, she would be the best famale in that country.

GideonF
08-03-2017, 06:37 AM
I'm not going to argue about this, FargoRate does not consider Karen or Allison to represent USA.



If all you had to do is come live here then Siming Chen could do that too and be the best female in the USA. Actually if Siming Chen moved to any country on earth, she would be the best famale in that country.



All I'm suggesting is that you use the American female rather that "female in the USA". The first term is clear, the second is either unclear or wrong. Just like it would be wrong to exclude Jayson or Darren from a sentence talking about "best male players in the USA". They live there full time!


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decent dennis
08-03-2017, 06:39 AM
Anything else you want to make it "fair" ? What day and what time does it have to be played? Can she get used to the time change, or does she have to play as soon as she lands? Does the humidity have to be at a certain level????

Believe it or not, both sides are the bettors, unless you pay if you lose, and get nothing if you win.
Jason<----thinks somebody^^^^^ is rabid

Apparently you missed the john barton class on negotiations.

jay helfert
08-03-2017, 07:05 AM
I don't think you understand the debate.

No one (to my knowledge) is saying a woman can't beat a man in a tournament.

I remember the Karen/Ko match, and it was definitely an upset. If they played the same format, under the same conditions, everyday for the rest of your life.

Who would your money be on? Be honest.

You're right, I just don't understand this debate. I really think you should get on the GAL so you can bet on matches. That would be a lot of fun for you since you know so much about how players match up. And you could make a lot of money too. Believe me, there are a lot of uninformed people like me betting on there every day! :thumbup:

LAMas
08-03-2017, 08:30 AM
Who would put up traveling and lodging money to travel to the US or Asia for these proposals??

iusedtoberich
08-03-2017, 08:30 AM
Jay, do you think Siming now is better than Jean, Allison, and Karen, in their respective primes?

Looking at the Fargolist, its clear the top women are all from China, and are head and shoulders above the other women. One point about that, is us here in the USA, probably have very little exposure to their play. We know how Skylar plays, because we've been following him since he was 16, and seen him play at DCC and every other tournament. The Chinese women, we simply have not had much exposure to them. There could "hypothetically" be one better than Shane, and unless we saw it with our own eyes, day in day out, we'd never believe it.

mikepage
08-03-2017, 08:38 AM
Apparently you missed the john barton class on negotiations.

lol... I help the $$ for his match with Lou F.

Here is my email string. Let's just say you guys only saw the top of the iceberg

BasementDweller
08-03-2017, 08:39 AM
I would love to see the women's Fargo Ratings broken down by game type. My hunch is their big table 9 ball ratings are higher than the other disciples.

gxman
08-03-2017, 09:01 AM
Would John Schmidt play Chen? His fargo is 743. I understand pool isnt his top priority, so hes not in peak form.

Black-Balled
08-03-2017, 09:38 AM
I would love to see the women's Fargo Ratings broken down by game type. My hunch is their big table 9 ball ratings are higher than the other disciples.

Oh? Jesus?

ChicagoRJ
08-03-2017, 10:25 AM
Who would put up traveling and lodging money to travel to the US or Asia for these proposals??

She can stay at my house with breakfast in bed every morning. Of course, she will have to wrestle the toast from the wife, but hey, it's still FREE :)

Rhea
08-03-2017, 10:27 AM
Siming Chen has went up to 783 on FargoRate as of today. There are now only 3 American players that are rated higher than her, SVB, Mike Dechaine, and Justin Bergman. On the world list she is now 5 spots above Skylar Woodward.

Cardigan Kid
08-03-2017, 10:35 AM
Siming Chen has went up to 783 on FargoRate as of today. There are now only 3 American players that are rated higher than her, SVB, Mike Dechaine, and Justin Bergman. On the world list she is now 5 spots above Skylar Woodward.

Is there any way for Mike page to run a special Fargo number crunch and just calculate Chen rating with only male opponents?
I understand he did that for Karen corr and it didn't change that much, but at least that number is a true position of where she would be rated if only playing men.

Rhea
08-03-2017, 10:52 AM
At the rate shes improving she will be the only woman in the world ever to be in the 800 club over the next few years

Rhea
08-03-2017, 10:53 AM
At the rate shes improving she will be the only woman in the world ever to be in the 800 club over the next few years

I'm pretty sure she wont be the last one, as Han Yu and Chezka both show promise too

mikepage
08-03-2017, 10:58 AM
Is there any way for Mike page to run a special Fargo number crunch and just calculate Chen rating with only male opponents?
I understand he did that for Karen corr and it didn't change that much, but at least that number is a true position of where she would be rated if only playing men.

We have no games for her against male opponents.

overlord
08-03-2017, 11:07 AM
Jay is saying that the best women players are coming out of China. I don't dispute this notion. What I will say, is it an even playing field?

My understanding is the Nationalist Chinese in Taiwan subsidize pool. I don't know if the People's Republic does but I'm inclined to think they do.

Many of the men in the second tier of pool players in the US are amateur players in reality. They may be defined pro players but they can't support themselves playing pool.

Its like when the Soviet Union in days gone past called their athletes amateurs when in point of fact they were not.

If Karen Kor defeated Ko in a single race what is relevant is where she finished in the over all tournament. How did Karen finish in that US Open? I frankly don't know.

For those folks that play Nine Ball, a single set means nothing.

I don't know anything about Fargo ratings. I've heard from folks that I respect for over 25 years that women would play on par with men in pool.

I've often disagreed with this notion. The fact is, the simple idea there's a women's tour defines the need for it.

If you can't finish in the top money pool does not pencil at all in the US. On a uni-sex tour I would posit that the women would be locked out of the money.

In 2008 I was at Derby City, not playing in the tournament but just hanging out having a blast.

I was having some beers with some friends from Los Angeles that I play pool with and know very well.

One of these cats was telling me that women were the equal of men in the pool world, end of story.

I paused for a moment and said to him that if you give them testosterone injections your theory may become more of a reality.

My buddy got very upset with my answer it violated all his notions of political correctness.

I have taken a lesson with a world champion male player and frankly he hit balls unlike any female I've ever seen play the game.

I know what I am manifesting is not fashionable but it's just my humble opinion.

marek
08-03-2017, 11:22 AM
Jay is saying that the best women players are coming out of China. I don't dispute this notion. What I will say, is it an even playing field?

My understanding is the Nationalist Chinese in Taiwan subsidize pool. I don't know if the People's Republic does but I'm inclined to think they do.

Many of the men in the second tier of pool players in the US are amateur players in reality. They may be defined pro players but they can't support themselves playing pool.

Its like when the Soviet Union in days gone past called their athletes amateurs when in point of fact they were not.

If Karen Kor defeated Ko in a single race what is relevant is where she finished in the over all tournament. How did Karen finish in that US Open? I frankly don't know.

For those folks that play Nine Ball, a single set means nothing.

I don't know anything about Fargo ratings. I've heard from folks that I respect for over 25 years that women would play on par with men in pool.

I've often disagreed with this notion. The fact is, the simple notion there's a women's tour defines the need for it.

If you can't finish in the top money pool does not pencil at all in the US. On a uni-sex tour I would posit that the women would be locked out of the money.

In 2008 I was at Derby City, not playing in the tournament but just hanging out having a blast.

I was having some beers with some friends from Los Angeles that I play pool with and know very well.

One of these cats was telling me that women were the equal of men in the pool world, end of story.

I paused for a moment and said to him that if you give them testosterone injections your theory may become more of a reality.

My buddy got very upset with my answer it violated all his notions of political correctness.

I have taken a lesson with a world champion male player and frankly he hit balls unlike any female I've ever seen play the game.

I know what I am manifesting is not fashionable but it's just my humble opinion.

Maybe you should know that women can finish VERY high even in world-class man field,probably the best example is Jasmin Ouschan finishing 3rd in World 14-1 Championships back when WPA gave its aproval for that tournament being World Championships. Jasmin just smoked LOTS of man champions en route to semifinals ;)

Positively Ralf
08-03-2017, 11:26 AM
Maybe it's because I look at things logically, but how exactly do men have an advantage over women in a game where the only big difference is the power being generated to break the balls apart?

Unless I'm unaware of something else that is not there.

overlord
08-03-2017, 11:27 AM
Maybe you should know that women can finish VERY high even in world-class man field,probably the best example is Jasmin Ouschan finishing 3rd in World 14-1 Championships back when WPA gave its aproval for that tournament being World Championships. Jasmin just smoked LOTS of man champions en route to semifinals ;)

Ok then what happened? Sounds like an outlier.

ChicagoRJ
08-03-2017, 11:59 AM
Maybe it's because I look at things logically, but how exactly do men have an advantage over women in a game where the only big difference is the power being generated to break the balls apart?

Unless I'm unaware of something else that is not there.

You can ask Allison Fisher, she had an answer to that. I mean, she was by far the best woman pool player on the planet for a decade or more. She had her opinion only, but it was pretty reasonable. She took no offense that she was the best womens player and had no intention of playing with the men and maybe being in the top 50. She'd starve, and she knew that. She's still one of my all-time favorite players. I don't care that she doesn't beat the top male players. And, it appears, she doesn't care either ;)

AtLarge
08-03-2017, 12:29 PM
... If Karen Kor defeated Ko in a single race what is relevant is where she finished in the over all tournament. How did Karen finish in that US Open? I frankly don't know. ...

2015 US Open 9-Ball

Karen Corr -- W, W, L, L, = 33rd/48th, $2,000

Ko Pin-Yi -- L, W, W, L = 49th/64th, $0

Skratch
08-03-2017, 12:39 PM
Wouldn't it be better if we just got rid of the women's tournaments and just have one tournament? I agree women are getting better in the sport and can challenge the men. So why not end the debate and just make the women play along with the men? Wouldn't it be proof if they competed and placed as well as their ratings? Or is the rating system biased or incomplete (much like poll numbers) and misleading? Getting rid of the women's tournament should settle the gender debate. I know this suggestion might upset some, but its only a logical suggestion to help prove one way or another.

LAMas
08-03-2017, 12:41 PM
Jay is saying that the best women players are coming out of China. I don't dispute this notion. What I will say, is it an even playing field?

My understanding is the Nationalist Chinese in Taiwan subsidize pool. I don't know if the People's Republic does but I'm inclined to think they do.

Many of the men in the second tier of pool players in the US are amateur players in reality. They may be defined pro players but they can't support themselves playing pool.

Its like when the Soviet Union in days gone past called their athletes amateurs when in point of fact they were not.

If Karen Kor defeated Ko in a single race what is relevant is where she finished in the over all tournament. How did Karen finish in that US Open? I frankly don't know.

For those folks that play Nine Ball, a single set means nothing.

I don't know anything about Fargo ratings. I've heard from folks that I respect for over 25 years that women would play on par with men in pool.

I've often disagreed with this notion. The fact is, the simple idea there's a women's tour defines the need for it.

If you can't finish in the top money pool does not pencil at all in the US. On a uni-sex tour I would posit that the women would be locked out of the money.

In 2008 I was at Derby City, not playing in the tournament but just hanging out having a blast.

I was having some beers with some friends from Los Angeles that I play pool with and know very well.

One of these cats was telling me that women were the equal of men in the pool world, end of story.

I paused for a moment and said to him that if you give them testosterone injections your theory may become more of a reality.

My buddy got very upset with my answer it violated all his notions of political correctness.

I have taken a lesson with a world champion male player and frankly he hit balls unlike any female I've ever seen play the game.

I know what I am manifesting is not fashionable but it's just my humble opinion.

Some of the top female players do not lack testosterone ...or something.

overlord
08-03-2017, 12:44 PM
2015 US Open 9-Ball

Karen Corr -- W, W, L, L, = 33rd/48th, $2,000

Ko Pin-Yi -- L, W, W, L = 49th/64th, $0

Thx for the info. Ko had a bad tournament and KC finished in the money. But based on these results with Karen C finishing in front of Ko. Does that mean that Karen would play Ko even for the money?

I don't think so.

smashmouth
08-03-2017, 12:47 PM
Would John Schmidt play Chen? His fargo is 743. I understand pool isnt his top priority, so hes not in peak form.

are you serious with that question? he beats her 99/100

she's below top "amateur" males

mikepage
08-03-2017, 12:53 PM
Thx for the info. Ko had a bad tournament and KC finished in the money. But based on these results with Karen C finishing in front of Ko. Does that mean that Karen would play Ko even for the money?

I don't think so.

Well yes, but why bring that up? Is there anyone in this thread--or anywhere else on the planet for that matter--who has claimed Karen plays even with Ko?

She is about 80-points below him, about the same as the gap between Danny Olson and Shane Van Boening

Rhea
08-03-2017, 12:58 PM
are you serious with that question? he beats her 99/100

she's below top "amateur" males

No he does not, and i would bet she beats him at least 50/100 if not more

Siming Chen vs John Schmidt, Siming is the favorite

KMRUNOUT
08-03-2017, 01:00 PM
Maybe it's because I look at things logically, but how exactly do men have an advantage over women in a game where the only big difference is the power being generated to break the balls apart?

Unless I'm unaware of something else that is not there.



You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

overlord
08-03-2017, 01:05 PM
Well yes, but why bring that up? Is there anyone in this thread--or anywhere else on the planet for that matter--who has claimed Karen plays even with Ko?

She is about 80-points below him, about the same as the gap between Danny Olson and Shane Van Boening

I made my over arching points in my post #114 in this thread. I acknowledge in that post that I don't know anything about the Fargo ratings.

My theme is that women will likely never play on par with the men in pool. In my own experience in any room I've ever played in the top male was always better than the top female and that is true today.

overlord
08-03-2017, 01:08 PM
You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

Logic is out of fashion my friend.

Nostroke
08-03-2017, 01:13 PM
are you serious with that question? he beats her 99/100

she's below top "amateur" males

Ahahahahahaha

AtLarge
08-03-2017, 01:21 PM
Wouldn't it be better if we just got rid of the women's tournaments and just have one tournament? I agree women are getting better in the sport and can challenge the men. So why not end the debate and just make the women play along with the men? Wouldn't it be proof if they competed and placed as well as their ratings? Or is the rating system biased or incomplete (much like poll numbers) and misleading? Getting rid of the women's tournament should settle the gender debate. I know this suggestion might upset some, but its only a logical suggestion to help prove one way or another.

From about 9 years ago:

The fundamental reason for having separate sporting events for young people, old people, and women (and other classifications in some sports) is that people in these classifications typically perform at an inferior level compared to adult males who are not yet seniors. If the young, the old, and females did not have their own events, these people would be unable to win much of anything in the sports world. They are in "protected" classes so they can compete with similar people.

But at the highest level in most sports, the events are, and should be, open to any human being capable of competing at that level.

In the amateur golf world, for example, the U.S. Golf Association sponsors these six events (and some others) -- one for junior females, one for juniors as a whole, one for senior women, one for seniors as a whole, one for women of any age, and one for human beings of any age or sex. This last event is the U.S. Amateur, open to anyone who qualifies. And if a senior woman was good enough, she could play in both of the senior events and both of the adult (but-not-yet-senior) events. In fact, if this same senior woman was good enough to qualify, she could also play in the U.S. Open (amateurs and pros).

In pool, we see the same sort of thing -- events for juniors, or women, or "Class B" players, or wheelchair players, etc. These groups need to be protected in this way, because most of their players would be completely uncompetitive in open events. But if people in these classes are good enough, they can also try to compete at the highest level in truly open events, which, of course, are currently dominated by adult males.

Perhaps someday women pool players won't need their own tour. But in the meantime, it's a real pleasure to see a few of them able to compete with the top men. And to argue that the top men should therefore be eligible to compete in women's events is just ludicrous.

Black-Balled
08-03-2017, 01:26 PM
No he does not, and i would bet she beats him at least 50/100 if not more

Siming Chen vs John Schmidt, Siming is the favorite

You are truly living in a fantasy world.

AtLarge
08-03-2017, 01:26 PM
You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

Good post, Kerry. I've long thought that a lot of shots are closer to their physical limits for women than for men and, therefore, women will miss more of those shots. So the generally superior power or strength of men is a factor well beyond just the break.

KMRUNOUT
08-03-2017, 01:28 PM
Thx for the info. Ko had a bad tournament and KC finished in the money. But based on these results with Karen C finishing in front of Ko. Does that mean that Karen would play Ko even for the money?

I don't think so.

The Wednesday night tourney I play in has a few pros in it. On occasion I beat them. Apparently that makes me a pro. One guy I'm pretty sure can give me the 7 out playing 10 ball and rob me. I've never won a race to 7 or more with him, but I have won races to 5. Point is, a decent player is going to beat some top players every so often, but remain the HUGE underdog nonetheless.

KMRUNOUT

LAMas
08-03-2017, 01:36 PM
No he does not, and i would bet she beats him at least 50/100 if not more

Siming Chen vs John Schmidt, Siming is the favorite

Agreed playing in China on a snooker table.

Nostroke
08-03-2017, 01:46 PM
The Wednesday night tourney I play in has a few pros in it. On occasion I beat them. Apparently that makes me a pro. One guy I'm pretty sure can give me the 7 out playing 10 ball and rob me. I've never won a race to 7 or more with him, but I have won races to 5. Point is, a decent player is going to beat some top players every so often, but remain the HUGE underdog nonetheless.

KMRUNOUT

Wow!! What a revelation!! I mean everyone here has been saying if you once beat a pro, you are a pro. Pool needs you!!

mikepage
08-03-2017, 01:46 PM
You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

I don't know the answers, but you are essentially saying, "trust me, strength is a really big deal in pool." I don't at this point find that compelling. But I am willing to listen.

I think you should be careful, though, to avoid characterizing people who don't agree with that as either being blind to differences between men and women or thinking differences are somehow bad.

smashmouth
08-03-2017, 01:54 PM
No he does not, and i would bet she beats him at least 50/100 if not more

Siming Chen vs John Schmidt, Siming is the favorite


yeah ok:smile:

having said that, she is in fact totally awesome, and I wish her continued success

LAMas
08-03-2017, 01:55 PM
Tall strong pool professionals have an advantage over short Alex Pagulayan.

BeiberLvr
08-03-2017, 02:42 PM
And a race to 100 is a race that takes more than just skill it takes endurance of mind and body ,, race to 25 offers a little of both and will bare out the best player more times than not


1

I agree. Or even a best of series races to 11

KMRUNOUT
08-03-2017, 02:46 PM
I don't know the answers, but you are essentially saying, "trust me, strength is a really big deal in pool." I don't at this point find that compelling. But I am willing to listen.

I think you should be careful, though, to avoid characterizing people who don't agree with that as either being blind to differences between men and women or thinking differences are somehow bad.

Mike,

Strength was just one component of the case I was making. Temperament and other factors I listed I think are even more a factor than strength, as illustrated by my chess example. If you don't find the strength angle compelling, I would encourage you to consider further the specific applications of strength in a wide variety of pool situations. I do not know if you have considered the concept that accuracy can go up a lot if most shots are *well* withing the limits of your strength. For many women, many shots fall closer to their strength limits.

And I most certainly believe that many many people are indeed blind to the differences between men and women. I think many many people are blind to MANY differences between many things. Most people, even highly intelligent people (who for some reason must not consider the issue much), are most likely not aware of most research out there. Discernment is a principle ingredient in intelligence, and by definition the average person is only of average intelligence, and as such will simply not recognize many distinctions that do in fact exist. Also, I do indeed believe that many people are operating out of some assumption (compulsion really) to somehow make men and women equal. To imply that a woman can't do what a man can do is somehow horrible bigotry to many. Like all things, there are exceptions. However, whether or not there are exceptions my statements hold, unless someone wishes to claim that the exceptions account for more than 50% of the sample.

The point is, I am either right or I'm not. If I am, which I obviously believe, then the people who disagree are wrong because of any combination of ignorance, faulty logic, or being "blind to the differences". To characterize those people some other way, when that is the way it is, would be disingenuous...almost exactly the way characterizing men and women as equal is disingenuous. That said, I also hold an open mind and am overjoyed to hear any counter arguments. I'm happy to be wrong if this is the case, but the research out there is on my side in this one.

Sorry if this sounds harsh...

KMRUNOUT

easy-e
08-03-2017, 02:59 PM
I think this chick gets heisted by a man of the same Fargo rate. That being said, I still think it's the best rating system we have.

JumpinJoe
08-03-2017, 03:45 PM
Real easy to blow smoke when you know it ain't happening


1

It's not hard to make it happen. It's rather simple.
You like her side, why don't you find 4 or 5 others on here that like her side and put up the dough. I'm sure she would come when they have a wpba event and play this also.

I'll cover the other side. It's not a problem to have that side covered.

JumpinJoe
08-03-2017, 03:48 PM
Is anyone in here or a group of people willing to round up 20k for her to play Sky?

Does anyone ever bet on what they preach?

Let's make it happen.

mikepage
08-03-2017, 04:49 PM
Mike,

[...]. I do not know if you have considered the concept that accuracy can go up a lot if most shots are *well* withing the limits of your strength. For many women, many shots fall closer to their strength limits.

I HAVE thought about this, and I don't know which way it plays. There are two aspects. One is the one you mention, that when pinging closer to your own speed high-end accuracy goes down--and a weaker person is more likely affected by this. The flip side is this, and it has to do with speed control. The vast majority of shots are well within the comfort zone of any somewhat athletic, coordinated person. Let's say
Sampson's full range is 0 to 100, and
Delilah's full range is 0 to 50.
Let's also say most shots fall in the range 5 to 40. Who is going to better able to distinguish between a 17 and an 18? For Delilah, it is 2% of her range; for Sampson it is 1% of his range and the distinction between the two is more subtle--kinda like having your radio dial or computer-mouse more sensitive. So again, I don't know how this plays out. It's probably not very important either way.

And I most certainly believe that many many people are indeed blind to the differences between men and women.

Perhaps they are not blind to the differences but instead see other factors as being more important than those differences in leading whatever outcome difference we're talking about.

[...]



Sorry if this sounds harsh...


lol...It's all good ....

jay helfert
08-03-2017, 04:57 PM
Mike,

Strength was just one component of the case I was making. Temperament and other factors I listed I think are even more a factor than strength, as illustrated by my chess example. If you don't find the strength angle compelling, I would encourage you to consider further the specific applications of strength in a wide variety of pool situations. I do not know if you have considered the concept that accuracy can go up a lot if most shots are *well* withing the limits of your strength. For many women, many shots fall closer to their strength limits.

And I most certainly believe that many many people are indeed blind to the differences between men and women. I think many many people are blind to MANY differences between many things. Most people, even highly intelligent people (who for some reason must not consider the issue much), are most likely not aware of most research out there. Discernment is a principle ingredient in intelligence, and by definition the average person is only of average intelligence, and as such will simply not recognize many distinctions that do in fact exist. Also, I do indeed believe that many people are operating out of some assumption (compulsion really) to somehow make men and women equal. To imply that a woman can't do what a man can do is somehow horrible bigotry to many. Like all things, there are exceptions. However, whether or not there are exceptions my statements hold, unless someone wishes to claim that the exceptions account for more than 50% of the sample.

The point is, I am either right or I'm not. If I am, which I obviously believe, then the people who disagree are wrong because of any combination of ignorance, faulty logic, or being "blind to the differences". To characterize those people some other way, when that is the way it is, would be disingenuous...almost exactly the way characterizing men and women as equal is disingenuous. That said, I also hold an open mind and am overjoyed to hear any counter arguments. I'm happy to be wrong if this is the case, but the research out there is on my side in this one.

Sorry if this sounds harsh...

KMRUNOUT

Everything is like everything else.....except not always! :thumbup:

smashmouth
08-03-2017, 05:25 PM
I think this chick gets heisted by a man of the same Fargo rate. That being said, I still think it's the best rating system we have.

good rating system, flawed sample pool

Black-Balled
08-03-2017, 05:32 PM
The Wednesday night tourney I play in has a few pros in it. On occasion I beat them. Apparently that makes me a pro. One guy I'm pretty sure can give me the 7 out playing 10 ball and rob me. I've never won a race to 7 or more with him, but I have won races to 5. Point is, a decent player is going to beat some top players every so often, but remain the HUGE underdog nonetheless.

KMRUNOUT

Me too!

I even won a kinda big event once, beating a bunch of guys who would stick me up with ease.

Pool needs us, tap tap.

overlord
08-03-2017, 05:40 PM
I think we should cut right to the chase. What was the highest finish of a woman at the US Open? I don't know what the history is and how many years women have competed there but I do know that for a least a modicum of years they have.

We are kinda of lost in the esoteric weeds. The question remains: Why do women compete for the most part with their own sex rather than play with the men, if they have a chance of winning?

Why is it that in every pool hall I've ever played at, the top female has no chance beating the top male without weight?

Back in the day I played a little at Hollywood Billiards down in the basement at Hollywood Blvd. and Western. I was playing 8 ball then. Didn't play Nine Ball much less One Pocket.

Forever, a guy named "Dana" never knew his last name, was the top dog in that room. He was super strong and could walk from the street level down the stairs to the basement on his hands.

Dana was a fine Nine Ball player and his One Pocket was very sporting.

There was no woman regular that stood a chance against this guy period, end of story.

one stroke
08-03-2017, 05:40 PM
It's not hard to make it happen. It's rather simple.
You like her side, why don't you find 4 or 5 others on here that like her side and put up the dough. I'm sure she would come when they have a wpba event and play this also.

I'll cover the other side. It's not a problem to have that side covered.

Never said I like her side against Sky in a long set ,, never the less you know it ain't happening she would never match up here against anybody,, there simply is nothing to gain


1

one stroke
08-03-2017, 05:56 PM
I think we should cut right to the chase. What was the highest finish of a woman at the US Open? I don't know what the history is and how many years women have competed there but I do know that for a least a modicum of years they have.

We are kinda of lost in the esoteric weeds. The question remains: Why do women compete for the most part with their own sex rather than play with the men, if they have a chance of winning?

Why is it that in every pool hall I've ever played at, the top female has no chance beating the top male without weight?

Back in the day I played a little at Hollywood Billiards down in the basement at Hollywood Blvd. and Western. I was playing 8 ball then. Didn't play Nine Ball much less One Pocket.

Forever, a guy named "Dana" never knew his last name, was the top dog in that room. He was super strong and could walk from the street level down the stairs to the basement on his hands.

Dana was a fine Nine Ball player and his One Pocket was very sporting.

There was no woman regular that stood a chance against this guy period, end of story.
Jean competed against men on a regular basis and in 14-1 had many top finishes before she turned to nine ball which she played pretty sporty also , a little CnP

Balukas was initially entered in both the men's and women's divisions of the 1987 B.C. Classic, a nine-ball competition. After notable controversy (detailed below), she competed only on the men's side. Along the way she trounced Keith McCready 11–3 (at the time the 17th-ranked male player by money list, and who guest-starred as obnoxious hustler "Grady Seasons" in the 1986 film The Color of Money). Balukas finished in a tie for 9th place among many of the best players in the world.

1

LAMas
08-03-2017, 06:01 PM
I think we should cut right to the chase. What was the highest finish of a woman at the US Open? I don't know what the history is and how many years women have competed there but I do know that for a least a modicum of years they have.

We are kinda of lost in the esoteric weeds. The question remains: Why do women compete for the most part with their own sex rather than play with the men, if they have a chance of winning?

Why is it that in every pool hall I've ever played at, the top female has no chance beating the top male without weight?

Back in the day I played a little at Hollywood Billiards down in the basement at Hollywood Blvd. and Western. I was playing 8 ball then. Didn't play Nine Ball much less One Pocket.

Forever, a guy named "Dana" never knew his last name, was the top dog in that room. He was super strong and could walk from the street level down the stairs to the basement on his hands.

Dana was a fine Nine Ball player and his One Pocket was very sporting.

There was no woman regular that stood a chance against this guy period, end of story.

Robin Bell by chance?

Full Name - Robin Bell Dodson
Lives - California, USA
Titles/Achievements - 2009 induction into WPBA Hall of Fame
**************************** - 2005 induction into BCA Hall of Fame
**************************** - 1998 WPBA Twin Cities Classic
**************************** - 1995 WPBA Denver/Detroit/Atlanta Classics
**************************** - 1994 & 1995 Gordon’s Championships
**************************** - 1994 WPBA San Diego/Atlanta Classics
**************************** - 1992 US Open 9 Ball Championship
**************************** - 1992 Brunswick Challenge Cup
**************************** - 1992 McDermott Masters
**************************** - 1991 Brunswick Munich Masters
**************************** - 1991 Big Island Classic
**************************** - 1990 & 1991 WPA World 9-Ball Champion
**************************** - 1989 WPBA National 9 Ball Championship
**************************** - 1986 Cleveland Open (Spring and Fall)
**************************** - 1985 Resorts International Open
**************************** - 1984 Great American Classic
**************************** - 1984 Caesar's Tahoe Classic
**************************** - 1983 Miller Lite World Series of Pool
**************************** - 1979 California Women’s State Champion


http://www.pro9.co.uk/html/print.php?sid=1711

overlord
08-03-2017, 06:31 PM
Robin Bell by chance?

Not in a million years. I don't think she would stand a chance. At the time the Black Widow wouldn't either.

There is a famous story of Dana beating the Pinoy pro, " Dodong " Andam for the cash, even, down in the basement, back in the day.

The story is that Dana was losing to Andam and then had an episode like a little seizure where he seemed ready to black out. His eyes rolled up into the back of his head and he grabbed the table to keep standing. Whatever this episode really was he didn't miss another ball after it.

I was not at the event and this was all related to me by a cat that was there. I used to watch him practice. He had this really ratty looking sneeky pete with a duct tape wrap.

Dana if he thought you were knocking his action would give you a fist sandwich. He was eighty-sixed from just about every pool hall in city.

The old Hollywood Billiards was on one of the worst corners in the City. There were 4 pay phones out on that corner of Western and Hollywood Blvd. manned by cats with Raiders Jackets on and pagers. The sh...t was flowing.

The air in that basement was fetid, foul and soup like from all the cigarette smoke. Man that place was wild like the Mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom.

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 06:32 PM
I think we should cut right to the chase. What was the highest finish of a woman at the US Open? I don't know what the history is and how many years women have competed there but I do know that for a least a modicum of years they have.

We are kinda of lost in the esoteric weeds. The question remains: Why do women compete for the most part with their own sex rather than play with the men, if they have a chance of winning?

Why is it that in every pool hall I've ever played at, the top female has no chance beating the top male without weight?

Back in the day I played a little at Hollywood Billiards down in the basement at Hollywood Blvd. and Western. I was playing 8 ball then. Didn't play Nine Ball much less One Pocket.

Forever, a guy named "Dana" never knew his last name, was the top dog in that room. He was super strong and could walk from the street level down the stairs to the basement on his hands.

Dana was a fine Nine Ball player and his One Pocket was very sporting.

There was no woman regular that stood a chance against this guy period, end of story.

Doesnt matter what the highest woman finish was, none of those women were her speed. Whats so hard to understand about this??? This thread is filled with stupidity.

Why so butthurt that a woman plays better than EVERYBODY on here except Berg?
Jason

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 06:35 PM
Man that place was wild like the Mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom.

When you try to sound cool, but miss the mark by a mile^^^^
Jason

De420MadHatter
08-03-2017, 06:47 PM
I'll give 2-1 on the money, Hillary wins the election :thumbup:

overlord
08-03-2017, 06:53 PM
When you try to sound cool, but miss the mark by a mile^^^^
Jason

You are trying to bait me. I really don't feel like trifling with you and I am gonna mind my manners on the main forum. Cool is a very subjective subject.

De420MadHatter
08-03-2017, 06:55 PM
Here is some food for thought based on research. IMO women do not possess the same hand-eye coordination men do.

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/mental-mens-and-womens-brains-wired-differently-120713#4

overlord
08-03-2017, 07:00 PM
Doesnt matter what the highest woman finish was, none of those women were her speed. Whats so hard to understand about this??? This thread is filled with stupidity.

Why so butthurt that a woman plays better than EVERYBODY on here except Berg?
Jason

I think that you are confused regarding my copy.

one stroke
08-03-2017, 07:00 PM
Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 07:05 PM
Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

Well said:thumbup:
Jason

De420MadHatter
08-03-2017, 07:07 PM
Doesnt matter what the highest woman finish was, none of those women were her speed. Whats so hard to understand about this??? This thread is filled with stupidity.

Why so butthurt that a woman plays better than EVERYBODY on here except Berg?
Jason

In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

one stroke
08-03-2017, 07:11 PM
In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

Mind you she's 23 yrs old she's only 4 yrs old than the squirt ,, but I do see Cheska knocking down some barriers with her style of play ,

1

1

jasonlaus
08-03-2017, 07:12 PM
In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

I like Chezka's style of play much better - womens version of Earl, Hatch etc

overlord
08-03-2017, 07:13 PM
Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

JohnnyOzone
08-03-2017, 07:47 PM
I HAVE thought about this, and I don't know which way it plays. There are two aspects. One is the one you mention, that when pinging closer to your own speed high-end accuracy goes down--and a weaker person is more likely affected by this. The flip side is this, and it has to do with speed control. The vast majority of shots are well within the comfort zone of any somewhat athletic, coordinated person. Let's say
Sampson's full range is 0 to 100, and
Delilah's full range is 0 to 50.
Let's also say most shots fall in the range 5 to 40. Who is going to better able to distinguish between a 17 and an 18? For Delilah, it is 2% of her range; for Sampson it is 1% of his range and the distinction between the two is more subtle--kinda like having your radio dial or computer-mouse more sensitive. So again, I don't know how this plays out. It's probably not very important either way.



Perhaps they are not blind to the differences but instead see other factors as being more important than those differences in leading whatever outcome difference we're talking about.

[...]



lol...It's all good ....

The Sampson and Delilah analogy that you have offered above has been disproven beyond andoubt in the world of golf. Male golfers have vastly superior "short games" than female LPGA due to superior strength. They are better able to control their clubs and have superior "touch" due to this difference.
If you watch Siming Chen or any other top female, their speed control is nowhere near a top male pro. In fact, that may be the thing that stands out the most as a difference in their games.

Then you have the whole evolutionary reasons that better equip men over women for hand-eye coordination and "aiming" abilities......but that is for another time and place I guess.

mikepage
08-03-2017, 08:57 PM
The Sampson and Delilah analogy that you have offered above has been disproven beyond andoubt in the world of golf. Male golfers have vastly superior "short games" than female LPGA due to superior strength. They are better able to control their clubs and have superior "touch" due to this difference.
If you watch Siming Chen or any other top female, their speed control is nowhere near a top male pro. In fact, that may be the thing that stands out the most as a difference in their games.



I like this. I concede.



Then you have the whole evolutionary reasons that better equip men over women for hand-eye coordination and "aiming" abilities......but that is for another time and place I guess.

My problem is not whether such differences exist; it is whether they are invoked too quickly to explain differences that are really more complex...

Dave714
08-03-2017, 09:30 PM
Siming Chen is slow as a Turtle and very boring to watch. At least Chezka has rhythm and can run racks in a hurry.

LAMas
08-03-2017, 11:00 PM
Siming Chen is slow as a Turtle and very boring to watch. At least Chezka has rhythm and can run racks in a hurry.

Chezka has a future shooting for and with the Pinoys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tt6Fp0V2Fg

Who has the best butch cut?

jasonlaus
08-04-2017, 12:06 AM
Chezka has a future shooting for and with the Pinoys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tt6Fp0V2Fg

Who has the best butch cut?

Really??????best butch cut? Wtf is wrong with you? Sad life you must have.

2 of the greatest female players period in history and that is what you have to say???

Johnnyt
08-04-2017, 03:52 AM
Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

I agree with all of this post. Johnnyt

one stroke
08-04-2017, 05:36 AM
I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

Karen finished 2nd at turning stone , won a APT event and Split one of Marylands state Turneys ,, she's beat countless top men pros so the "Fact " is they are already competing



1

marek
08-04-2017, 06:02 AM
Ok then what happened? Sounds like an outlier.

Not really, Jasmin Ouschan has been a regular at Eurotour events for several years and she finished many times in TOP32 with her best finish being 5th in fields of 200+ players. In fact she finished higher than her brother Albin more than once at Eurotour :thumbup: So not much of an outliner :)

Skratch
08-04-2017, 07:51 AM
From about 9 years ago:

The fundamental reason for having separate sporting events for young people, old people, and women (and other classifications in some sports) is that people in these classifications typically perform at an inferior level compared to adult males who are not yet seniors. If the young, the old, and females did not have their own events, these people would be unable to win much of anything in the sports world. They are in "protected" classes so they can compete with similar people.

But at the highest level in most sports, the events are, and should be, open to any human being capable of competing at that level.

In the amateur golf world, for example, the U.S. Golf Association sponsors these six events (and some others) -- one for junior females, one for juniors as a whole, one for senior women, one for seniors as a whole, one for women of any age, and one for human beings of any age or sex. This last event is the U.S. Amateur, open to anyone who qualifies. And if a senior woman was good enough, she could play in both of the senior events and both of the adult (but-not-yet-senior) events. In fact, if this same senior woman was good enough to qualify, she could also play in the U.S. Open (amateurs and pros).

In pool, we see the same sort of thing -- events for juniors, or women, or "Class B" players, or wheelchair players, etc. These groups need to be protected in this way, because most of their players would be completely uncompetitive in open events. But if people in these classes are good enough, they can also try to compete at the highest level in truly open events, which, of course, are currently dominated by adult males.

Perhaps someday women pool players won't need their own tour. But in the meantime, it's a real pleasure to see a few of them able to compete with the top men. And to argue that the top men should therefore be eligible to compete in women's events is just ludicrous.

I understand why they are separate, and it was never an issue to me. If the women (et. al.) want to play in their own tournaments and not in the open events, I'm happy for them. My reasoning for suggesting the removal of the women's event was to address the issue of how a player's Fargo Rating, or any other rating system is skewed and not a true measure of their playing ability. For the OP to allude that some of the women players are placing higher on the charts compared to some of the men, and this would suggest that they are better players than those same men is
misleading. My suggestion would then place them playing those same women against those same men regularly. The rating systems would then be a more accurate measure since they are then compared "apples to apples, oranges to oranges."

As an analogy, imagine a player's rating from a professional baseball team being compared to that of a minor league's, on a rating system that uses the same metrics. It would be obvious that the professional's actual playing ability would be considered much better, even if their ratings are the same. So, comparing some of the women's ratings to that of the men's when they aren't in even in the same league and alluding to that as female player A is better than male player B is inaccurate. If the female player is always competing with the male players and her rating is awarded thusly, then I would concede that she would be the better player. I think then, to remedy the issue, the listing of Fargo Ratings should be separated as well.

I fully support that these top women should be playing in all the open events. Its great for the sport in my opinion.

overlord
08-04-2017, 07:54 AM
In tournament play you play one set of Nine Ball against an opponent. Its the nature of Nine Ball that there is a lot of luck.

I know a guy that I used to play all the time we would go back and forth playing Nine Ball.

I am no great player on any level. Now this guy played Mika Immonen in the Hard Times Sunday Nine Ball tournament. My friend did not even know who he was.

That's a real problem with pool when a guy is playing a world champion and has no idea who he is.

He got a game on the wire gong to six. He beat Mika. Well what does that mean? It means Mika for the money could give this guy like the last six and the breaks and still prevail.

Many top Pinoy players that did not win the tournaments they were in have to give up weight to get action from other top players.

Top players over time strangle you at the table. If a safety battle ensues they win it.

My daughter's boy friend is a solidly successful software engineer. I asked what the ratio of women to men in his field is. I said is it ten to one? He said no its more like 15-1.

Now the idea that my asking this question and getting an answer makes me a misogynist is risible.

One of my premises is that the dominant male player in every room I've ever played in will defeat the dominant female.

This works out in real life as well, Allison Fisher who was without any argument the dominant female player of her generation could take a set off someone like Efren Reyes if the stars aligned for her.

Now, if both players post up the cash and play all night Allison would have no chance whatsoever and this is just fact.

Another weak spot for women is One Pocket. Never saw a woman that can play anywhere near the level of top male One Pocket players. This fact effects the pro level of their safety game.

If the data changes I will be the first to acknowledge this fact. I think the best Nine Ball players are the folks that play all night for the cash over a lot of sets.

Follow the money, Dennis Orcollo is feared because he took down the cash in the Philippines against all takers.

Jose Parica lost many a tournament and beat the guy that won in after hours sets for the cash. Sometimes he had to give them weight.

The pros know what's up and who to really fear.

mikepage
08-04-2017, 08:21 AM
[...] My reasoning for suggesting the removal of the women's event was to address the issue of how a player's Fargo Rating, or any other rating system is skewed and not a true measure of their playing ability. For the OP to allude that some of the women players are placing higher on the charts compared to some of the men, and this would suggest that they are better players than those same men is
misleading.

What is misleading is you suggesting they are claiming those women are better than the men. They are not. If I say Jasmin beat Mark Gray 9-4 in a Eurotour event--which she did--, I am not saying Jasmin is better than Mark Gray. I'm just saying that's a feather in her cap.


My suggestion would then place them playing those same women against those same men regularly. The rating systems would then be a more accurate measure since they are then compared "apples to apples, oranges to oranges."

As an analogy, imagine a player's rating from a professional baseball team being compared to that of a minor league's, on a rating system that uses the same metrics. It would be obvious that the professional's actual playing ability would be considered much better, even if their ratings are the same. So, comparing some of the women's ratings to that of the men's when they aren't in even in the same league and alluding to that as female player A is better than male player B is inaccurate.

This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

overlord
08-04-2017, 08:50 AM
http://www.bbc.com/sport/snooker/27253279

Data from the world of Snooker.

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 08:52 AM
I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

Heck, I will root for the woman every time they play the men, why not. I LOVED when Karen Corr beat KO. Who would not.

But the woman don't seem to be upset they don't play at the same level as the men. Allison Fisher never cared, why would she, she was the best woman's player on the planet for almost a decade. So, why are folks here that upset about it if the woman are not upset about it ? just confusing.

Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.

mikepage
08-04-2017, 09:09 AM
Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

It is firmly established from lots of direct competition and competition within a group that Siming Chen is more than 50 points above Karen Corr and Jasmin Ouschan. So you need to look at males that play even with Karen--and go up 50 points. That's where Siming belongs.



Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.

There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...

overlord
08-04-2017, 09:15 AM
Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

Heck, I will root for the woman every time they play the men, why not. I LOVED when Karen Corr beat KO. Who would not.

But the woman don't seem to be upset they don't play at the same level as the men. Allison Fisher never cared, why would she, she was the best woman's player on the planet for almost a decade. So, why are folks here that upset about it if the woman are not upset about it ? just confusing.

Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.


The chess analogie is interesting. Chess is a great game. Even a guy like Bobby Fisher that had a massive 181 IQ had to drop out of high school and totally focus on Chess to be world champion.

When playing Russian champions you were basically playing the whole Soviet State as they totally subsidized and schooled their players. In the US you were on your own.

That's why Fisher's win in Iceland was so earth shattering.

overlord
08-04-2017, 09:19 AM
It is firmly established from lots of direct competition and competition within a group that Siming Chen is more than 50 points above Karen Corr and Jasmin Ouschan. So you need to look at males that play even with Karen--and go up 50 points. That's where Siming belongs.



There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...

I don't know anything about the Fargo rating system. Does it apply to One Pocket?

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by mikepage
There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...[/QUOTE]


I agree, there are lots of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know. But "we" are different, and that's a fact, and probably a good thing. Men kill, murder, rape and kidnap at a rate 100 times more then woman. Might be why prisons are filled well over 90% with men.

So, I take no offense that woman are better human beings then men :grin-square:

If men are better at chess, does it really matter in the scheme of things ;)

mikepage
08-04-2017, 09:23 AM
I don't know anything about the Fargo rating system. Does it apply to One Pocket?

It does not.

I would say, though, that a players Fargo Rating forms kind of an upper limit to how good the player can get at one-pocket.

That is, a player with a world-class Fargo Rating could get world-class at One Pocket if they dedicated themselves to the game and played a lot with top players who know how to move.

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 09:24 AM
The chess analogie is interesting. Chess is a great game. Even a guy like Bobby Fisher that had a massive 181 IQ had to drop out of high school and totally focus on Chess to be world champion.

When playing Russian champions you were basically playing the whole Soviet State as they totally subsidized and schooled their players. In the US you were on your own.

That's why Fisher's win in Iceland was so earth shattering.

Yeah, I thought so to. As you know from NPR I got the chess bug now, and I got it bad :) I can't ever just enjoy a hobby, I want to be very good at it, and I'm at least a few decades away with chess, but I'm gonna get there :)

overlord
08-04-2017, 09:30 AM
Yeah, I thought so to. As you know from NPR I got the chess bug now, and I got it bad :) I can't ever just enjoy a hobby, I want to be very good at it, and I'm at least a few decades away with chess, but I'm gonna get there :)

I think this applies to pool as well. My feeling is and I don't know for sure that Siming Chen is subsidized by the Chinese government. Does anybody know for sure what that situation is?

Skratch
08-04-2017, 09:36 AM
What is misleading is you suggesting they are claiming those women are better than the men. They are not. If I say Jasmin beat Mark Gray 9-4 in a Eurotour event--which she did--, I am not saying Jasmin is better than Mark Gray. I'm just saying that's a feather in her cap.



This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

Hi Mike,

When you're SVB and you're head and shoulders above the competition, then it won't matter whether you play the pro or amateurs. If God played and won every game, that only proves he's God. LOL. If the Fargo Rating (for the women) were based on the numbers mostly when they competed against other women and not the general populace, then the numbers are biased. If you say, Karen or Siming's numbers were mostly against the men, then I would have more faith in what the OP is alluding. My suggestion of removing the women's tournaments, or rather, have the women play more consistently in the open events, would more than likely correct the Fargo ratings. The only way I can see that the ratings would be correct, is if they are purely performance based. Almost like the ghost ball drill. You either run the rack or your don't. It doesn't matter who your opponent is (in that case you're assuming it's God). If the Fargo Rating system is designed as such, I'll concede that the women players are outperforming the men on the list as suggested. But then, that begs the question: Why if you're ratings are better than many of the men, aren't they participating in more open events? Hypothetically, in an Open event, who would you bet on, Siming or the one of the next ten guys she's higher than in the Fargo Ratings?

As for Jasmine beating Mark, then I agree that is a feather in her cap, but to do it consistently would then show she should be considered the better player.

Nostroke
08-04-2017, 09:49 AM
This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

overlord
08-04-2017, 09:50 AM
It does not.

I would say, though, that a players Fargo Rating forms kind of an upper limit to how good the player can get at one-pocket.

That is, a player with a world-class Fargo Rating could get world-class at One Pocket if they dedicated themselves to the game and played a lot with top players who know how to move.

OK, here is some real world data. In Santa Monica CA., the game is One Pocket. That's what is played in that room.

The dominant male player can give the dominant female player 12-5 and win just about every game, regardless of who is breaking.

Both players have access to a home table and know each other very well. In fact the dominant female player has no chance and palms her forehead in disbelief after losing game after game.

Table slapping is observed, the pulling of hair and declarative exclamations of frustration. . None of this changes the outcome.

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

PRED
08-04-2017, 09:54 AM
so you can get a super high rating by beating d players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

w t f argo

LAMas
08-04-2017, 10:24 AM
They both do well for Pool Players:

SIMING CHEN
EARNINGS AZB MONEY LEADERBOARD
$92,671 1st

SHANE VAN BOENING
EARNINGS AZB MONEY LEADERBOARD
$91,520 2nd

mikepage
08-04-2017, 10:33 AM
So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

Absolutely.

I'm 628--based on everything

I just computed my own rating based only on opponents rates 430 and under. It is 635

Then I computed my rating based ONLY on opponents rated 730 and over--like if I just played the pros

It is 632.

This is a key feature of Fargorate's approach.

mikepage
08-04-2017, 10:38 AM
[...]

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

I don't understand this.


Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

Again, I I think you are saying things that are supposed to sound like you are refuting something others are saying. But I don't know a single person on planet earth that would disagree with wat you've said here. Do you?

overlord
08-04-2017, 10:57 AM
I don't understand this.



Again, I I think you are saying things that are supposed to sound like you are refuting something others are saying. But I don't know a single person on planet earth that would disagree with wat you've said here. Do you?

Through the years when I've stated the facts regarding this issue I get a lot of reactionary rebuttals based on feelings.

I've had people that were good players and smart tell me that women will be able to compete with men at the top of the sport. The data 25 years ago did not support that supposition and it does not today.

I would like to know if you post the criteria for Fargo. I would also like to know if the top Chinese players from mainland China are subsidized by the state.

Positively Ralf
08-04-2017, 11:19 AM
You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

Thank you for missing the entire point of my post. I never asked for the differences between male and female anatomies or how different men live their lives compared to females.

and yes, I still stand by what I say. This is not tennis, football, soccer or bowling. Literally, the only difference between a male and female pool player is how much power is generated at the break. If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.

Pacecar
08-04-2017, 11:34 AM
Overlord,
It is my understanding that the Fargo rating system is a refinement of the better-known ELO rating relationships system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Study and understand the mathematics and statistics associated with the ELO system; then study the information presented on the Fargo website. Hopefully, you'll be able to better understand and appreciate the comments being made by Mike Page.
-Larry

overlord
08-04-2017, 11:39 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-chinese-olympian-had-no-idea-her-mother-had-cancer-because-her-parents-feared-it-would-disturb-her-training-2012-8

This article talks about all kinds of athletes in China. I am assuming since the Chinese government subsidizes its snooker and table tennis players that the same is being done for its pool players.

I may be wrong. If I am right then" Siming Chen " is no " free range " player but a product of the state. US players have not such luxury.

In Los Angeles good luck trying to get just a permit to operate a pool hall much less get the US government to back you in trying to compete at the game.

Our players have to make it on their own. Even Barry Hearn acknowledges that the future for snooker is in China not the UK.

There are like 50 million Chinese snooker players.

overlord
08-04-2017, 11:41 AM
Overlord,
It is my understanding that the Fargo rating system is a refinement of the better-known ELO rating relationships system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Study and understand the mathematics and statistics associated with the ELO system; then study the information presented on the Fargo website. Hopefully, you'll be able to better understand and appreciate the comments being made by Mike Page.
-Larry

Thank you I will take a look.

LAMas
08-04-2017, 11:44 AM
Chinese 8 Ball (snooker tables) booth introduced at the Rio.

41st BCAPL National Championships!

ribdoner
08-04-2017, 11:53 AM
So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.


His staement leads me to believe that my FR would be higher if i clubbed baby seals (apa 2's) vs batting .500 vs the top 20 FR monsters

highkarate
08-04-2017, 12:02 PM
OK, here is some real world data. In Santa Monica CA., the game is One Pocket. That's what is played in that room.

The dominant male player can give the dominant female player 12-5 and win just about every game, regardless of who is breaking.

Both players have access to a home table and know each other very well. In fact the dominant female player has no chance and palms her forehead in disbelief after losing game after game.

Table slapping is observed, the pulling of hair and declarative exclamations of frustration. . None of this changes the outcome.

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

Are you talking about wayne and jenny? we must know each other...

mikepage
08-04-2017, 12:05 PM
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 12:06 PM
If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.

Sorry, your answers are just to simple for complex human nature. Lets see, lets teach Johnny how to shoot a rifle and Suzi how to shoot a rifle. And then drop them both off in the middle of Iraq with a group of insurgents coming at them full bore.

The outcome should be exactly the same, correct? I mean, they both shoot pretty sporty, what would help one over the other?

highkarate
08-04-2017, 12:11 PM
Sorry, your answers are just to simple for complex human nature. Lets see, lets teach Johnny how to shoot a rifle and Suzi how to shoot a rifle. And then drop them both off in the middle of Iraq with a group of insurgents coming at them full bore.

The outcome should be exactly the same, correct? I mean, they both shoot pretty sporty, what would help one over the other?

Why wouldn't that outcome be the same?

LAMas
08-04-2017, 12:16 PM
Are you talking about wayne and jenny? we must know each other...

Jenny Lee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRFkyzOLtB0

Wayne Pullen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRFkyzOLtB0

And One Pocket Rich.

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 12:21 PM
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.

Mike, I really like when you show these head to head comparisons. Are there any plans to make an update to the website that would add this, and other functionality, to the end users (us)? Thank you.

De420MadHatter
08-04-2017, 12:33 PM
Thank you for missing the entire point of my post. I never asked for the differences between male and female anatomies or how different men live their lives compared to females.

and yes, I still stand by what I say. This is not tennis, football, soccer or bowling. Literally, the only difference between a male and female pool player is how much power is generated at the break. If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.

I think you missed his entire point :confused:. Literally, there are thousands of differences, other than the break. He tried to show you, and you just blew it off lol. Amazing :thumbup:.
The way they live their lives, the anatomies, etc, are the huge differences. A woman's brain does not think like a man's. Her hormones & emotions are completely different. All these things matter just as much as strength. For some reason you fail to see the big picture. I will post this again in case you missed it the first time.


http://www.healthline.com/health-news/mental-mens-and-womens-brains-wired-differently-120713#4

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 12:36 PM
Why wouldn't that outcome be the same?

Surely, you jest?

overlord
08-04-2017, 12:56 PM
Are you talking about wayne and jenny? we must know each other...

I really don't like to talk about players in the rooms I play in. I mentioned Dana at the old Hollywood Billiards and those that knew him, know that he long ago retired from the game.

He was one hell of a pool player. Dana did not suffer those that knocked his action.

I don't know what happened to him.

I am gonna make a one time special dispensation regarding One Pocket in Santa Monica.

I was referring to Richard and his wife playing. I've watched this phenomena many times.

overlord
08-04-2017, 01:05 PM
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.

I would like to ask you again. Is Miss Chen a " free range " player like players are in the West?

This may not be comparing apples to apples.

mikepage
08-04-2017, 01:15 PM
I would like to ask you again. Is Miss Chen a " free range " player like players are in the West?

This may not be comparing apples to apples.

She could have been abducted by aliens and taught to play pool on Tralfamadore for all I know...

We may be comparing apples to kryptonite

mikepage
08-04-2017, 01:20 PM
Surely, you jest?

lol....Let's keep on this "dropped in Iraq with charging insurgents" tangent because I'm pretty sure common understanding and enlightenment is right around the corner....

overlord
08-04-2017, 01:22 PM
She could have been abducted by aliens and taught to play pool on Tralfamadore for all I know...

We may be comparing apples to kryptonite

Good answer. Folks in the west are gonna have problems with playing against the entire state apparatus of China.

I know one thing the US ain't gonna back pool players in a million years.

ChicagoRJ
08-04-2017, 01:29 PM
lol....Let's keep on this "dropped in Iraq with charging insurgents" tangent because I'm pretty sure common understanding and enlightenment is right around the corner....

It's actually quite easy to understand, but it's not PC, so why go there. I will just let it be ;)

Cardigan Kid
08-04-2017, 01:58 PM
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.

Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?

And also...

In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...

2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?


Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.

I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.

one stroke
08-04-2017, 02:21 PM
Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?

And also...

In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...

2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?


Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.

I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.

However we all know Chen is much better than Karen so it gives a pretty good idea how good she is

1

mikepage
08-04-2017, 02:55 PM
Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?

Yes and no. My best guess is that is about where she is. But top XX is a pretty sensitive function of rating. So top 40 sounds like a long way from top 80. But it really isn't. There are only 15 points that separate top 40 and top 80. So we can't really say with any real confidence "there are only 40 blah blah blah...." On the other hand her being in this crowd is not an illusion.

Also, I'm less bothered by the no matches against men. I think the top women are pretty well coupled to the top men.


In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...



Yes, she could be not used to grinding it out; she could shark herself about playing against the top men--all these things are possible. It could be she'd have to get over some things before performing at her potential.
But it's also true men could have a harder time playing against her, especially if she gets a lead...


2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?


I think no.


Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.

Again, I think the women are pretty well coupled to the men. A little caution with the statements is fine, but I think this over-states the case...



I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.

You are thinking that she herself need to play against members of the other group for her rating to be properly coupled. There just needs to be significant mixing between members of her group, international-level-women to members of the other group, international-level men. This is similar to a 600-level player in Arizona being the same speed as a 600-level player in Massachusetts, even though neither travels to the other state. Just need sufficient coupling through others.

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 04:03 PM
With all of this talk of the top women... here is Siming Chen vs Centeno Chezka from 2017:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwSCk64TnH8

PS, they both stroke like men, with a pronounced elbow drop. Maybe that is why they are so good! ha ha ha

one stroke
08-04-2017, 04:48 PM
With all of this talk of the top women... here is Siming Chen vs Centeno Chezka from 2017:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwSCk64TnH8

PS, they both stroke like men, with a pronounced elbow drop. Maybe that is why they are so good! ha ha ha
I've always wondered why many Filipinos look like the double-jointed in their fingers

1

BeiberLvr
08-04-2017, 06:02 PM
With all of this talk of the top women... here is Siming Chen vs Centeno Chezka from 2017:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwSCk64TnH8

PS, they both stroke like men, with a pronounced elbow drop. Maybe that is why they are so good! ha ha ha

Some of the shot selections in that first rack were pretty bad.

And to me that's the biggest difference.

Men (on average) tend to just make better choices at the table than women. Like that last shot Chen took on the 8 ball that left Centeno a fairly easy bank into the side pocket.

Just look at all of the male players within 10 points of Chen's Fargo rating, and tell me which of them would shoot the 8 ball that poorly?

BeiberLvr
08-04-2017, 06:10 PM
Mike Page,

A few things I noticed on your site

1. The top 100 list has Siming Chen at a 783, but the top 10 list has her at a 774.

2. From the main page at fargorate.com, there is a link you can click "Search for Player Ratings". This will take you to http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/ which has most of the features of the site. Except for the top 100 list. In order to see the top 100 list, you'd have to go back to fargorate.com, but there is no direct link. There's a home button at the bottom, but it doesn't do anything.


Not sure if you actually designed the website, but just wanted to bring it to your attention. Thanks

one stroke
08-04-2017, 07:28 PM
Some of the shot selections in that first rack were pretty bad.

And to me that's the biggest difference.

Men (on average) tend to just make better choices at the table than women. Like that last shot Chen took on the 8 ball that left Centeno a fairly easy bank into the side pocket.

Just look at all of the male players within 10 points of Chen's Fargo rating, and tell me which of them would shoot the 8 ball that poorly?

Mind you it's a WPA event with a shot clock I think at that point in the match she was flustered Chens play got better as the match progressed,, you ought to look at Albin and Shane in the finals of the TOC to see the shots they dogged it was pretty comical,
I'll add to this how many matches Iv seen pro's play I thought dam I play that good or I can make that shot , then I step into live bullets and it's a far different story

1

BeiberLvr
08-04-2017, 10:37 PM
Mind you it's a WPA event with a shot clock I think at that point in the match she was flustered Chens play got better as the match progressed,, you ought to look at Albin and Shane in the finals of the TOC to see the shots they dogged it was pretty comical,
I'll add to this how many matches Iv seen pro's play I thought dam I play that good or I can make that shot , then I step into live bullets and it's a far different story

1

Oh, was this the first WPA event she's ever played? Never heard of someone, let alone a professional, getting flustered in the very first rack. Especially during a fairly routine shot.

I've seen the Albin and Shane match. However, there is a rather large difference between simply dogging/missing a shot/position, and completely taking the wrong shot.

KMRUNOUT
08-04-2017, 11:26 PM
Thank you for missing the entire point of my post. I never asked for the differences between male and female anatomies or how different men live their lives compared to females.



and yes, I still stand by what I say. This is not tennis, football, soccer or bowling. Literally, the only difference between a male and female pool player is how much power is generated at the break. If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.



But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.



Ok. I'm just telling you that there is significant research indicating that there are differences between men and women. Differences grounded in their biology. Differences in cognition and temperament. These are significant factors in competitive games and sports independent of any difference in physical strength.

With respect, I did not miss the point of your post. I *refuted* that point. There is a critical difference that you are perhaps not recognizing. You have restated your point again here. I still think you are incorrect in your assumptions. Which is fine with me. You don't have to think or learn anything...that's totally up to you.

You didn't ask for information about men and women. Ok. However failing to recognize the relevance of this information and its significance to this topic explains why you still think as you do.

In a nutshell, you say strength is the only biological difference. I say you're wrong about that, that there are many other differences, and that those differences are more significant that the differences in strength.

Again, you can look at it any way you like. If this leads you to post an opinion that I believe is inaccurate and under-researched, I may offer some contrary opinions. That's what a public forum is for, is it not?

Best wishes,

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

KMRUNOUT
08-04-2017, 11:31 PM
I think you missed his entire point :confused:. Literally, there are thousands of differences, other than the break. He tried to show you, and you just blew it off lol. Amazing :thumbup:.

The way they live their lives, the anatomies, etc, are the huge differences. A woman's brain does not think like a man's. Her hormones & emotions are completely different. All these things matter just as much as strength. For some reason you fail to see the big picture. I will post this again in case you missed it the first time.





http://www.healthline.com/health-news/mental-mens-and-womens-brains-wired-differently-120713#4



Thanks. Yep that's what I'm saying. I appreciate your post.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

KMRUNOUT
08-04-2017, 11:40 PM
With all of this talk of the top women... here is Siming Chen vs Centeno Chezka from 2017:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwSCk64TnH8

PS, they both stroke like men, with a pronounced elbow drop. Maybe that is why they are so good! ha ha ha



Wait a second. I didn't realize Chezka is a lefty. Isn't a lefty like 40 Fargo points higher automatically?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87673)

jasonlaus
08-05-2017, 01:06 AM
Oh, was this the first WPA event she's ever played? Never heard of someone, let alone a professional, getting flustered in the very first rack. Especially during a fairly routine shot.

I've seen the Albin and Shane match. However, there is a rather large difference between simply dogging/missing a shot/position, and completely taking the wrong shot.

And Alex dogging those balls in a few recent events? Jesus, give it a rest already. Or jump up and play her King Kong
Jason

justinb386
08-05-2017, 01:47 AM
Siming Chen has shot up to #41 in the world among men and women. She is the #1 female in the world and there are only 40 humans above her skill level, and she is still young and improving.

Very interesting. Curious who the next female in line is in World Rankings (among men and women), and what number she is. I assume you are talking about their Fargo rating?

justinb386
08-05-2017, 01:58 AM
I fixed your post. She is very talented.

Yes, and I do not think that the Fargo rate of female players should be compared to the fargo rate of male players. The females are playing under a different type of pressure then the males. I do not know, but I find it hard to believe that she beats all of the other players outside if the top 40 (in the Fargo rate system). Put her in the US Open, or the Derby City Classic (or any other major tournament, that is open to all human beings), and lets see how well she does.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:05 AM
There was a lot of noise recently when McEnroe said Serena Williams would be 700th in the world if she competed with the men in pro tennis.
After all the huffing and puffing, they find the Letterman interview with her where she said it's a completely different game in the men's division, more power, more spin, etc. And admitted she would be no where near the top on the pro tour.

I would love to see Siming Chen compete for a full season on the men's euro tour.
Maybe even a full season on the joss northeast 9-ball tour.

After watching Karen Corr compete at the highest levels on the men's tour, im most certain women can compete. But can they ever break the top 50 in the world if playing only men's division tournaments? I'd like to see her attempt it for sure.

It will never happen, as long as there is a Pro Women's tour. Why would she compete against the top Men, if she only has to compete against the top Women (and earn just as much money, or more)? Maybe she would if she had the free time to do both, but I am guessing that would not be possible.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:08 AM
She plays even with skylar woodward if that gives you any indication of her speed, but shes trending up and so is he

Does she really? You would bet even money on her to beat Skyler 5 times out of 10 (in races to 11 in 9 ball, for example, or any game on a pool table)? I think not. No offense to her though. My bet is that Skyler wins more then 5 times out of 10.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:10 AM
Why do you say they play even? Did he say that?

Maybe because they both have an identical Fargo rate? I do not know though. Just a guess.

jasonlaus
08-05-2017, 02:11 AM
Yes, and I do not think that the Fargo rate of female players should be compared to the fargo rate of male players. The females are playing under a different type of pressure then the males. I do not know, but I find it hard to believe that she beats all of the other players outside if the top 40 (in the Fargo rate system). Put her in the US Open, or the Derby City Classic (or any other major tournament, that is open to all human beings), and lets see how well she does.

You have no idea how fargo rate works.
Jason

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:19 AM
She could win several shes a solid 782 and continuing to climb. Even most men arent a 782 or higher there are 3 or 4 american men that could compete at her level

But she obtained that 782 rating by playing Women, not Men. Skyler (and all of the other Male pros) obtained his rating by playing Men. I just do not see how you can compare the 2. I am so tired of hearing about the Fargo rating system. Comparing the rating of the guys to the girls is just silly I think. Mike Page explained all of this to me, about why I am wrong, but I still do not get it. If she really plays even with Skyler (according to Fargo), then she should not be on the Women's pro tour. She should be playing with the Men.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:22 AM
If all the tournaments I entered had a bunch of D players then my Fargo Rate would also be a 782.

P.S. I play even with Shane VanBoening, he doesn't know it yet though because we've never played a game together.

That is exactly what I was thinking, but just could not figure out how to explain it the way you did. This is why I do not see how the Fargo rating of the girls can be compared to the Fargo rating of the guys.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:26 AM
No it wouldn't-You can't get a high rating by beating low rated players. The whole system is based on the level of players that you beat and who they have beaten.

But the girls are all just playing each other. They received their rating by only playing other girls. If the Fargo rate system proves that the girls should be competing at the same level as the guys, then why are they not? What if there were no Women's pro tour. Are you sure that she (the girl in question) would still have around a 782 Fargo rating?

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:27 AM
Do you think this young lady's rating would be as high as it is if she were sharing the table with Orcullo, SVB, Alex, Thorsten, etc on the reg?

I do not know, but I think not.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:36 AM
I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Sure, initially she wouldn't be accustomed to the degree of return-fire. But it is not like she is unaccustomed to the TV table, late rounds of major events, the pressure of needing to come through when it matters. In fact, she has more under-the-lights experience than male players who play at her level.

And when we look at this initial goofiness, remember it is a two-way street. If she played a similarly-rated male, the monkey may be on the back of the male player--the one who, by conventional wisdom--isn't supposed to lose.

Siming's record over the last four years (since age 19) against the top western players (Allison, Jasmin, Kelly, and Karen) is 96 wins, 68 losses --basically playing 67 points above this competition. It takes a pretty high male pro to match that record.

So, if Skyler could put on some makup and a dress, and sneak on as a female, and only be playing the females, he would only have around the same win/loss record as her (playing only against other females)? And vice versa, is she could only play in the open events, she would have about the same win/loss record as Skyler in that situation? Sorry, but I think not. I know I risk looking like a complete fool with my way of thinking about the Fargo rating system. I really only have a very basic understanding of it.

justinb386
08-05-2017, 02:50 AM
Can you play a part?

There have been famous male/ female challenges before...

What do you think of Allison Fisher when she was in her prime? Could she have beat some of the top Men pros, at that time (mid 90's?)? I do not know, but I remember she was super strong. I seen a Snooker match of her playing in a team event (on youtube), when she was really young (probably before she came to the US), and I was really impressed.

jasonlaus
08-05-2017, 02:58 AM
So, if Skyler could put on some makup and a dress, and sneak on as a female, and only be playing the females, he would only have around the same win/loss record as her (playing only against other females)? And vice versa, is she could only play in the open events, she would have about the same win/loss record as Skyler in that situation? Sorry, but I think not. I know I risk looking like a complete fool with my way of thinking about the Fargo rating system. I really only have a very basic understanding of it.

No, you have NO understanding of Fargo
Jason

BeiberLvr
08-05-2017, 03:43 AM
And Alex dogging those balls in a few recent events? Jesus, give it a rest already. Or jump up and play her King Kong
Jason

Once again.

Dogging balls is not the same as making bad decisions.

Let me know if I need to explain it a third time.

BasementDweller
08-05-2017, 03:50 AM
justinb -- For the love of pool please stop talking about Fargo Ratings since you absolutely refuse to understand how they work. You have been led to the water many times but yet you still refuse to drink.

Tony_in_MD
08-05-2017, 03:58 AM
In the mid 90's she and Grady Mathews toured the country doing a Male/Female compition. They may have played in 10-15 rooms across the country. I saw them @ USA billiards in Laurel MD. Below is a link to the events.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/mainevent/grudgematch/

Now I guess the next logical question was how good was Grady @ 9 ball in the mid 90's Was he considered a top-shelf pro?


What do you think of Allison Fisher when she was in her prime? Could she have beat some of the top Men pros, at that time (mid 90's?)? I do not know, but I remember she was super strong. I seen a Snooker match of her playing in a team event (on youtube), when she was really young (probably before she came to the US), and I was really impressed.

jasonlaus
08-05-2017, 04:50 AM
Once again.

Dogging balls is not the same as making bad decisions.

Let me know if I need to explain it a third time.

And once again, you show me a pro who hasnt made a bad decision. You watch one match and think that is her entire career??? Jump in the ring with her big boy.

BeiberLvr
08-05-2017, 04:56 AM
And once again, you show me a pro who hasnt made a bad decision. You watch one match and think that is her entire career??? Jump in the ring with her big boy.

Everyone has made bad decisions. In pool and life in general.


But men (again, on average) will make better decisions at the pool table*




*Assuming similar Fargo Ratings. I feel I need to clarify that here with you. Obviously someone like Siming will make better decisions at the table than someone like me.

mikepage
08-05-2017, 05:50 AM
So, if Skyler could put on some makup and a dress, and sneak on as a female, and only be playing the females, [...]

Here is what we would predict.

Sky would basically destroy the field, because he plays at a whole different level.

If he played, say, 17 matches in the last 4 years against Allison Fisher (2), Emily Duddy (1), Ewa Lawrence (1), Jasmin Ouschan (2), Jeanette Lee (1), Jennifer Baretta (1), Karen Corr (2), Kelly Fisher (5), Melissa Little (1), and Monica Webb (1), he would win maybe all but one match. And more often than not he would win the match by 4 or more games.

He might have a total record of, say, 141 wins and 80 losses.

Rhea
08-05-2017, 06:02 AM
Here is what we would predict.

Sky would basically destroy the field, because he plays at a whole different level.

If he played, say, 17 matches in the last 4 years against Allison Fisher (2), Emily Duddy (1), Ewa Lawrence (1), Jasmin Ouschan (2), Jeanette Lee (1), Jennifer Baretta (1), Karen Corr (2), Kelly Fisher (5), Melissa Little (1), and Monica Webb (1), he would win maybe all but one match. And more often than not he would win the match by 4 or more games.

He might have a total record of, say, 141 wins and 80 losses.

But you left off that Siming Chen would have similar results against same exact field.

one stroke
08-05-2017, 07:46 AM
But you left off that Siming Chen would have similar results against same exact field.

No she wouldn't, Sky is simply a better player equal Fargo rates are fake news they simply don't play even ,,


1

Chi2dxa
08-05-2017, 08:43 AM
Siming Chen has shot up to #41 in the world among men and women. She is the #1 female in the world and there are only 40 humans above her skill level, and she is still young and improving.
I just watched her play on youtube in the Amway Cup and she can play with any man. I certain that the table does not care if it is a man or woman.

iusedtoberich
08-05-2017, 08:44 AM
And once again, you show me a pro who hasnt made a bad decision. You watch one match and think that is her entire career??? Jump in the ring with her big boy.

He watched one rack when making that post:)

In fairness I watched half the match then passed out! ha ha

mikepage
08-05-2017, 08:52 AM
No she wouldn't, Sky is simply a better player equal Fargo rates are fake news they simply don't play even ,,


1

While the second part may be an open question, the first part, your "no she wouldn't," is wrong; that IS Siming's record I was describing.

one stroke
08-05-2017, 09:02 AM
While the second part may be an open question, the first part, your "no she wouldn't," is wrong; that IS Siming's record I was describing.

Regardless the point is she won't have similar success against the same field ,


1