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dr_dave
08-03-2017, 03:00 PM
In a previous poll (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=457415), people suggested various options for shooting the ball layout shown here:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466168

The following diagram clearly shows the ball positions and angles:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383


The following video demonstrates many options for approaching this table layout:

NV I.12 - VENT-II 9-Ball Layout With 21 Different Shot Options! Which Do You Like Best? (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm)

Here are the options demonstrated in the video:
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

other options suggested after filming:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2
(24) 1 into and/or behind 8, CB by 5
(25) 1 in corner, play safe on 2 (CB behind 9 and/or 2 behind 3-4)


Which one or two do you like best, and why?

I don't think I've ever seen a 9-ball layout before with this many options available.

Enjoy,
Dave

easy-e
08-03-2017, 03:07 PM
I like 7/8, take that free shot! If I feel like I have control of the balls, I try a mix of 5/11.

dr_dave
08-03-2017, 03:19 PM
I like 7/8, take that free shot! If I feel like I have control of the balls, I try a mix of 5/11.Please vote on the poll (selecting as many as you like) so we can keep track of what everybody thinks is best.

Thanks,
Dave

Poolmanis
08-03-2017, 04:33 PM
15 and 16 are my choises. I would try to make 1 and 2 balls and get close to 3. Then I would try get safe while breaking cluster.

12squared
08-03-2017, 04:34 PM
My good doctor,

Excellent video my friend with many options. After viewing your diagram of how the balls are set up, it appears that the 4/3 combo may be dead (if they are frozen) by banking the 1 ball of the short cushion into the 4. If they are, I may like that option as well - maybe you can set them up and try it.

Again, great work, you are stroking the ball really well.

The other doctor Dave.

peppersauce
08-03-2017, 08:04 PM
After seeing the new diagram, I like pocketing the 1 with follow to break up the 3/4 cluster. In the other thread I said I couldn't cheat the pocket enough to get the break out on my table, but I had the shot set up a little straighter than the new diagram shows.

The only thing that would make me second guess the run out based on the improved diagram is how tough the table is. On soft equipment, im going to shoot for the out 100% of the time from here. If, say, the pockets were 4"--I might consider ducking and breaking the cluster off the 1 or shooting a couple of balls and positioning myself where i could open the cluster and play safe off the 3, like poolmanis said. I would consider that, but if im being honest, I would probably try to run out from here no matter how tight the pockets.

This is just my personal preference, of course. I'm an aggressive, offensive minded player--sometimes too much so.

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 07:58 AM
My good doctor,

Excellent video my friend with many options.Thanks. It was fun practice. In fact, replicating the video would be a good pool work-out routine since it covers such a wide range of shot types and skills.


After viewing your diagram of how the balls are set up, it appears that the 4/3 combo may be dead (if they are frozen) by banking the 1 ball of the short cushion into the 4. If they are, I may like that option as well - maybe you can set them up and try it.Good eye. You are correct. I just tried it and it worked like a charm.

That's 22 now.

Anybody else have any others to add?



Again, great work, you are stroking the ball really well.Thanks. Although, anybody can look good after video-editing out all of the misses, some of which were very bad. Some of those shots took quite a few attempts to get right.


The other doctor Dave.Best regards,
Dr. Dr. Dave

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 08:15 AM
After seeing the new diagram, I like pocketing the 1 with follow to break up the 3/4 cluster. In the other thread I said I couldn't cheat the pocket enough to get the break out on my table, but I had the shot set up a little straighter than the new diagram shows.That is also an attractive option for me; although, I missed the 1 the first time I attempted it ... I think because the firm above-center hit caused the CB to hop and over-cut the 1 slightly. I had to aim thicker than I thought I should to pocket the ball cleanly. Also, the long shot left on the 2 in not a picnic ... for me anyway.

After hitting all of the shots, my favorite is:

(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2

It is fairly easy to hide behind the 2 and get the break out, without needing to attempt a challenging out (although, it does bring the opponent to the table with a chance to get lucky and leave me bad).


The only thing that would make me second guess the run out based on the improved diagram is how tough the table is. On soft equipment, im going to shoot for the out 100% of the time from here. If, say, the pockets were 4"--I might consider ducking and breaking the cluster off the 1 or shooting a couple of balls and positioning myself where i could open the cluster and play safe off the 3, like poolmanis said. I would consider that, but if im being honest, I would probably try to run out from here no matter how tight the pockets.Well stated. I agree.


This is just my personal preference, of course. I'm an aggressive, offensive minded player--sometimes too much so.Understood.

Thank you for sharing your insights,
Dave

KenRobbins
08-04-2017, 10:35 AM
In a previous poll (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=457415), people suggested various options for shooting the ball layout shown here:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466168

The following diagram clearly shows the ball positions and angles:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383


The following video demonstrates many options for approaching this table layout:

NV I.12 - VENT-II 9-Ball Layout With 21 Different Shot Options! Which Do You Like Best? (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm)

Here are the options demonstrated in the video:
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

Which one or two do you like best, and why?

I don't think I've ever seen a 9-ball layout before with this many options available.

Enjoy,
Dave

Nice job Dave, I enjoyed watching your video.

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 10:40 AM
Nice job Dave, I enjoyed watching your video.Thank you. I'm glad to hear it.

If you or others have not done so yet, please place your vote(s) at the top of the poll so we can see what most people think are the best shot options.

Catch you later,
Dave

KenRobbins
08-04-2017, 10:47 AM
Thank you. I'm glad to hear it.

If you or others have not done so yet, please place your vote(s) at the top of the poll so we can see what most people think are the best shot options.

Catch you later,
Dave

Yes, I did vote.

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 11:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpd0lB-LKP4

My preferred shot given the layout. (That was first attempt also, so its easy to execute)

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 11:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpd0lB-LKP4

My preferred shot given the layout. (That was first attempt also, so its easy to execute)Thanks for posting that.

I think I would categorize it as "(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8" and not a new category.

Please vote if you haven't done so yet.

Thanks again,
Dave

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 11:22 AM
Thanks for posting that.

I think I would categorize it as "(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8" and not a new category.

Please vote if you haven't done so yet.

Thanks again,
Dave

Yes I voted #5.

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 11:25 AM
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4

I just shot this shot 10 times or more. Its no good IMO. First, the angle on the 1 is mm precise in order to get the CB to hit the 3. 1mm too far to the left with the CB, and you will hit the rail well before the 3.

Second, if you do have the CB in the one perfect spot to reach the 3, and break out the 3/4, the shot on the 2 is very difficult. I'd say you need to be an A player or above to have a 50/50 chance of pocketing the 2.

IMO:)

Video attempts below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcDIPYEKoqM

SpinDoctor
08-04-2017, 11:49 AM
I like banking the 1 ball behind the 3/4 and stunning the cueball behind the 8. If it does manage to nudge the balls apart they may free up a run out later and, if not, you're in a good spot to consider working on 3 fouls.

The angle of the balls doesn't look good to me for shooting the one and breaking the balls out and, additionally, the shot you end up with on the 2 ball isn't much fun either.

KenRobbins
08-04-2017, 12:22 PM
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4

I just shot this shot 10 times or more. Its no good IMO. First, the angle on the 1 is mm precise in order to get the CB to hit the 3. 1mm too far to the left with the CB, and you will hit the rail well before the 3.

Second, if you do have the CB in the one perfect spot to reach the 3, and break out the 3/4, the shot on the 2 is very difficult. I'd say you need to be an A player or above to have a 50/50 chance of pocketing the 2.

IMO:)

Video attempts below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcDIPYEKoqM

Set that shot up again as Dave has it. Use high inside english, strike whitey a little higher than you were and stroke it like your life depends on it. I really love them shots.

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 12:34 PM
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4

I just shot this shot 10 times or more. Its no good IMO. First, the angle on the 1 is mm precise in order to get the CB to hit the 3. 1mm too far to the left with the CB, and you will hit the rail well before the 3.With the exact ball layout in the diagram, the break out is fairly natural. I just tried the shot 5 times on my table and pocketed the 1 and got the break out 5 times in a row; although, I remember when I was filming, I did over-cut the 1 a couple of times (either trying to create more angle than I needed and/or because of CB hop).

Second, if you do have the CB in the one perfect spot to reach the 3, and break out the 3/4, the shot on the 2 is very difficult.I agree with you 100% here. Every shot I had on the 2-ball off the break out was scary to me; and like you, I missed quite a few while filming. I just wasn't as comfortable as you to share all of my misses publicly. I respect you for that.

Video attempts below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcDIPYEKoqMIt looks to me that you are not hitting the CB nearly as high as you can. With the tip higher, the shot should be easier and more reliable for you. Let us know if that makes a difference.

Thanks again for posting your videos and comments.

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: You haven't taken an official stab at the BU Exams in a while. If you try them again, please consider posting new scores and videos on the AZB BU thread (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=321301). I'll be curious to see how much higher you can score compared to the past. I just finished up a couple of big projects, so I hope to find some time to attempt to top my scores, especially Exam I, where I think it should be possible to crush my previous best score (although, it never seems to work out so easily).

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 12:44 PM
I like banking the 1 ball behind the 3/4 and stunning the cueball behind the 8. If it does manage to nudge the balls apart they may free up a run out later and, if not, you're in a good spot to consider working on 3 fouls.If you set up the balls exactly as in the diagram, this shot is very difficult. I had to hit it many times to get it to work, and it required spin to throw the 1 to get the right angle to barely bump the cluster and still hide behind the 8. This is one of those shots that might look easy on paper but plays tougher in real life (for me, anyway).

The angle of the balls doesn't look good to me for shooting the one and breaking the balls outIf the balls are set up exactly as in the diagram, the break out is actually quite natural.

additionally, the shot you end up with on the 2 ball isn't much fun either.I agree 100% there. I missed my attempts at the 2 way more than I want to admit. (oh wait, I just admitted it. :grin-square:)

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 12:48 PM
Set that shot up again as Dave has it. Use high inside englishFYI, I didn't need inside on this shot. I used straight follow. The slight angle of the shot is enough to get the natural break-out. Why do you think the inside is required ... to create more cut angle?


strike whitey a little higher than you wereI notice that too. iusedtoberich is hitting the CB too low in his video.

Regards,
Dave

KenRobbins
08-04-2017, 01:07 PM
FYI, I didn't need inside on this shot. I used straight follow. The slight angle of the shot is enough to get the natural break-out. Why do you think the inside is required ... to create more cut angle?


I notice that too. iusedtoberich is hitting the CB too low in his video.

Regards,
Dave

I'm not verg good at explaining shots like most, but will try. Aim to shoot the 1 ball straight into the rail as setup. You want to hit the rail first with whitey before striking the 3 ball. The inside english will take you to the other side of the table for better shape on the 2 ball.

Using center high english and going straight into the 3 ball is killing the cue ball. Which gives you bad shape on the 2 ball.

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 01:21 PM
I'm not verg good at explaining shots like most, but will try. Aim to shoot the 1 ball straight into the rail as setup. You want to hit the rail first with whitey before striking the 3 ball. The inside english will take you to the other side of the table for better shape on the 2 ball.Got it. That is a good idea. I wish I had thought of that while filming. Maybe this should be shot 23.

Using center high english and going straight into the 3 ball is killing the cue ball. Which gives you bad shape on the 2 ball.Agreed.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
08-04-2017, 01:35 PM
I'm not verg good at explaining shots like most, but will try. Aim to shoot the 1 ball straight into the rail as setup. You want to hit the rail first with whitey before striking the 3 ball. The inside english will take you to the other side of the table for better shape on the 2 ball.Got it. That is a good idea. I wish I had thought of that while filming. Maybe this should be shot 23.FYI, I just tried it out on my table and got a good shot at the 2 with a good break out on my first try! This might be my new favorite option (although, in a match, I still think I would be more confident and comfortable with "(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2").

I've decided to add new options to the list in the first post (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=457645) as they are suggested. Here's what I have added so far:

other options suggested after filming:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2

Unfortunately, I am not able to add these as options on the poll.

Thanks again,
Dave

iusedtoberich
08-04-2017, 07:32 PM
...snip....
PS: You haven't taken an official stab at the BU Exams in a while. If you try them again, please consider posting new scores and videos on the AZB BU thread (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=321301). I'll be curious to see how much higher you can score compared to the past. I just finished up a couple of big projects, so I hope to find some time to attempt to top my scores, especially Exam I, where I think it should be possible to crush my previous best score (although, it never seems to work out so easily).


Your drill is too much hassle to set up. If you send me that complete projector system that has your drill built into it, I will do the second part of your exam completely through 4 times per week for one year (barring vacations), and the level finding first part of your exam twice per month.

You have permission to use my likeness to advertise your videos:) Assuming my score goes up.

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 05:36 AM
PS: You haven't taken an official stab at the BU Exams (http://billiarduniversity.org/exams.html) in a while. If you try them again, please consider posting new scores and videos on the AZB BU thread (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=321301). I'll be curious to see how much higher you can score compared to the past. I just finished up a couple of big projects, so I hope to find some time to attempt to top my scores, especially Exam I, where I think it should be possible to crush my previous best score (although, it never seems to work out so easily).Your drill is too much hassle to set up.That's a poor excuse. Just put the donuts on your table and leave them there. It only takes 5 minutes to place the donuts (per the instructions document (http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Table_Setup_Instructions.pdf) and video (https://youtu.be/H6qyyBpZ9MA)). And most of the donuts aren't even required. They just help make the exams go faster. The ball placements don't need to be perfect.

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: Did you try the higher hit on the CB yet?

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 05:40 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383


The following video demonstrates many options for approaching this table layout:

NV I.12 - VENT-II 9-Ball Layout With 21 Different Shot Options! Which Do You Like Best? (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm)

Here are the options demonstrated in the video:
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

other options suggested after filming:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2

Which one or two do you like best, and why?Let's get some more people voting today. I'm curious to see what the majority of AZB think are the best options.

And if anybody else can think of other options (like 22 and 23), please share them.

Catch you later,
Dave

KenRobbins
08-05-2017, 07:35 AM
Your drill is too much hassle to set up. If you send me that complete projector system that has your drill built into it, I will do the second part of your exam completely through 4 times per week for one year (barring vacations), and the level finding first part of your exam twice per month.

You have permission to use my likeness to advertise your videos:) Assuming my score goes up.

No need to set the whole pattern up repeatability. After shooting one set of a pattern, you find your weakness and work on that particular shot. No need to be an A player or above to work on one shot. I believe if a player puts the work and heart into their weaknesses they will improve overall. An example on the 2 ball shot you were having difficulty with. I don't put much heart into it as I would like and felt I shot two of the shots a little sloppy. Try lining the outside of your shaft to contact point on object ball. Just an example. https://youtu.be/BUaLrQ1X330

Edit: Line the left side of your shaft to contact point on object ball.

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 07:46 AM
My good doctor,

Excellent video my friend with many options. After viewing your diagram of how the balls are set up, it appears that the 4/3 combo may be dead (if they are frozen) by banking the 1 ball of the short cushion into the 4. If they are, I may like that option as well - maybe you can set them up and try it.

Again, great work, you are stroking the ball really well.

The other doctor Dave.Dave,

I noticed you haven't voted on the poll yet. Please pick the options that you think are best for you as a solid player. I respect your opinion, and I am curious to see what you pick.

And thanks again for coming up with option 22!

Catch you later,
Dave

iusedtoberich
08-05-2017, 08:32 AM
That's a poor excuse. Just put the donuts on your table and leave them there. It only takes 5 minutes to place the donuts (per the instructions document (http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Table_Setup_Instructions.pdf) and video (https://youtu.be/H6qyyBpZ9MA)). And most of the donuts aren't even required. They just help make the exams go faster. The ball placements don't need to be perfect.

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: Did you try the higher hit on the CB yet?

The first few attempts on my video I was lower on the CB. The later attempts I used a smoother stroke and a higher hit. But I really think the main difference was the ball placement.

Did you have your table marked with doughnuts for this shot? I was manually placing it each time. The reason I ask is the shot is extremely sensitive to ball placement. I would bet if you had it marked with a doughnut (and its still there) that if you move the CB 6mm to the left, you won't be able to hit the 3/4 cluster, no matter how high you hit the CB.

I also believe your diagram to be an 8' table (edit, actually it looks like a 7' table). I did not measure it, but by eye the ratio of the ball diameters to the diamond widths looks off. This can make a difference in my ball placement to yours.

On the other thread, you stated the angle was off for getting the 1 ball behind the 3/4 cluster and also hiding the CB behind the 8. My safe shot video confirms this, as I did get the CB behind the 8, but the OB went near the rack spot. Yet that is one of the leading poll choices here. My point of all of this, and which you well know, but many on this thread do not, is unless you are physically at the table, the angles do not show up properly on any diagram, or photograph, or even an over head accustats video shot.

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 09:08 AM
The first few attempts on my video I was lower on the CB. The later attempts I used a smoother stroke and a higher hit. But I really think the main difference was the ball placement.

Did you have your table marked with doughnuts for this shot?Yes. I marked all of the ball positions with clear plastic donuts so I wouldn't confuse them the BU Exam (http://billiarduniversity.org/exams.html) donuts. I placed them very carefully to match the ball layout in the original video (https://youtu.be/Jcge-otXqiA?t=1m59s) and diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383) as closely as possible. If you watch the new video (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm) again, you will see that all of the balls (including the CB) are in the same positions for every shot.

I was manually placing it each time. The reason I ask is the shot is extremely sensitive to ball placement. I would bet if you had it marked with a doughnut (and its still there) that if you move the CB 6mm to the left, you won't be able to hit the 3/4 cluster, no matter how high you hit the CB.Agreed. CB placement can make a big difference on this shot; although if it is off just a little in any direction, sidepsin and throw can change the effective cut angle a fair amount, as I demonstrate in other shots.

I also believe your diagram to be an 8' table. I did not measure it, but by eye the ratio of the ball diameters to the diamond widths looks off.The scale of my diagram is actually between an 8' and 9' scale (a little closer to a 9' scale). I made this decision a long time ago as a "compromise" scale. In retrospect, I probably should have set up everything in my diagram library for 9' (but I had an 8' table at the time, so the "compromise" seemed reasonable). Regardless, I doubt many people notice or care. At least everything is to scale, which is not the case with diagrams in all instructional products. :yikes:

This can make a difference in my ball placement to yours.I don't see how. If you set up the balls on your 9' table based on the diagram, it should match the setup on my 9' table identically.

On the other thread, you stated the angle was off for getting the 1 ball behind the 3/4 cluster and also hiding the CB behind the 8.That's correct. Although, with sidespin and throw, I was able to hide the CB behind the 8 and break out the cluster (barely).

unless you are physically at the table, the angles do not show up properly on any diagram, or photograph, or even an over head accustats video shot.I agree that one's perspective on shot options can change when at the table; but IMO, the diagram should be enough for most players to judge the angles and what is possible.

Regards,
Dave

PhilosopherKing
08-05-2017, 09:22 AM
.....................oversight

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 09:31 AM
nobody suggested banking the1 1-rail into the tied-up balls, leaving the cueball behind the 8?That's option 9 (hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4). Here it is in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m23s).

Please vote on all of the options you like after watching the entire video (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm).

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
08-05-2017, 01:41 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383


The following video demonstrates many options for approaching this table layout:

NV I.12 - VENT-II 9-Ball Layout With 21 Different Shot Options! Which Do You Like Best? (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm)

Here are the options demonstrated in the video:
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

other options suggested after filming:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2

Which one or two do you like best, and why?Here's a bump to try to get more people to vote so we can see what the majority of AZB thinks are the best options.

Also, if anybody else can think of other options (like 22 and 23), please share them.

Thanks,
Dave

SlashingAxe
08-05-2017, 03:23 PM
I'd like to say 9 but for someone at my level to execute behind the 8 without leaving the cue ball peeking out may be a bit difficult as those safeties aren't for automatic for me yet. 10 would be the safest option for me but easier chance for my opponent to kick at. Drawing after the 1 and going for the 2 leaving myself a bit on the 8 ball side I'd try grazing off the 3 and try hiding behind the 9-7

dr_dave
08-06-2017, 07:55 AM
I'd like to say 9 but for someone at my level to execute behind the 8 without leaving the cue ball peeking out may be a bit difficult as those safeties aren't for automatic for me yet. 10 would be the safest option for me but easier chance for my opponent to kick at. Drawing after the 1 and going for the 2 leaving myself a bit on the 8 ball side I'd try grazing off the 3 and try hiding behind the 9-7Thank you for posting and voting. The best option definitely depends on the player. Hopefully, we get more votes and input from more people, of all levels, today.

Thanks again,
Dave

Bob Jewett
08-06-2017, 10:02 AM
You could also shoot the 1 into the 8 and take the cue ball to the end rail by the 5. That's unlikely to leave a run out and is easy to play, but it's not very aggressive.

dr_dave
08-06-2017, 11:40 AM
You could also shoot the 1 into the 8 and take the cue ball to the end rail by the 5. That's unlikely to leave a run out and is easy to play, but it's not very aggressive.Good one. I just tried it a few times and it worked pretty well. This is definitely an easy and safe play. I just added the following to the first post (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=457645):

(24) 1 into and/or behind 8, CB by 5

Anybody else have additional ideas beyond what is already listed and demonstrated?

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
08-06-2017, 12:10 PM
I noticed that a lot of people so far have picked:

(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4

Here's a direct link to the shot in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m23s).

With the exact ball layout shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), this shot was very difficult for me and it took many attempts to get a good outcome. In fact, I think this shot option was the most difficult of all the shot options except for the 9-ball combo shots, which were brutal.

I had to use left spin to the throw the 1 enough to make it work. And both the line of aim and speed had to be nearly perfect. The amount of partial forward roll required to stun the CB forward was also a little hard to judge. Now, if there were slightly more angle on the shot, I would agree that this would be an excellent option; but with the ball layout in the diagram, it was extremely tough. Millimeters make a big difference here.

If you picked this option, try it out at a table with the CB and 1 positioned exactly as shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), and let me know if you still think it is a good choice.

Regards,
Dave

iusedtoberich
08-06-2017, 12:36 PM
...snip...

I don't see how. If you set up the balls on your 9' table based on the diagram, it should match the setup on my 9' table identically.

...snip...
Regards,
Dave

Yes, it makes a difference. Here is why. If I look at the ball diameter in your hybrid size table layout, and say its "1 graphical ball diameter" away from the diamond line, then go to my proper proportion 9' real table, and place the physical ball "1 physical ball diameter" away from that same diamond line, it places it in a different location than your hybrid table. For an extreme example of this, if you look at Bob Byrne's videos, where he would stand up to a pool table on a poster board that was 4 feet long, and had magnetic pool balls on it that he could move around that were 6" in diameter, you will see what I mean. That is an extreme, but shows exactly what happens and why it is impossible to duplicate a layout from one table size to another.

Alternatively, if I use the lines you drew connecting a few of the balls, to set the balls at a proper angle relative to a specific pocket, the ball locations won't correspond with the diamond grid on my table.

To make matters even worse, on some ball positions I'll use one method, and others another.

Maybe the only way you can accurately go from one table size to another is if you ONLY used the center of the balls for reference, relative to the diamond lines. And you never used ball outer diameters to measure spacing away from diamond lines or the rails. [Edit, this still would not be correct, as the spacing between the edges of the balls would be wrong, which would affect clusters and caroms, for example]

Diagram accuracy is a big pet peeve of mine. I don't believe ANY of the electronic ones, that are available today are proper. Only the cuetable.com one is, which we all know is down the toilet now. I contacted the developers of the other newer ones a couple of years ago, because they were some bastard size of table, and not a true 9'. And some of the other ones are 7' tables. I don't know if they ever fixed them.

I'd highly recommend for your instructional material going forward to make your drawings 100% to a 9' table. Don't have a bastard size table. IMO, of course:)

Another reason this eats me up, is for example these WWYD threads, I've sometimes taken 15 minutes to set up an "exact" layout with doughnuts. Then perform the shot. Maybe spend 30 min shooting it and several variations. Then spend another 30 minutes cutting the video and uploading it to youtube. And someone will always come on and say if you hit it different, it will work. Yes, that is true sometimes, if I don't know the shot. But many times, its really a function of the angle, and you simply can't tell the angle unless you are at the table. Its just discouraging when you know because all of the work you put in, in all of the above setup/shooting/recording/cutting/uploading, if a shot is on or not. Yet someone who only looked at the picture for 15 seconds says it goes.

dr_dave
08-06-2017, 02:05 PM
If you set up the balls on your 9' table based on the diagram, it should match the setup on my 9' table identically.Maybe the only way you can accurately go from one table size to another is if you ONLY used the center of the balls for reference, relative to the diamond lines.Agreed. When I say set up the balls exactly as shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), I mean with the centers of the balls positioned as shown, using the extra lines through ball centers for guidance (e.g., the lines I included through the CB and 1, and through the frozen 3-4).


Diagram accuracy is a big pet peeve of mine.Me too. Although, I usually have a problem only when the diagram is not drawn "to scale" where the balls are obviously the wrong size (often way too large) ... for any size table.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
08-07-2017, 06:44 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383


The following video demonstrates many options for approaching this table layout:

NV I.12 - VENT-II 9-Ball Layout With 21 Different Shot Options! Which Do You Like Best? (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVI-12.htm)

Here are the options demonstrated in the video:
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

other options suggested after filming:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2
(24) 1 into and/or behind 8, CB by 5

Which one or two do you like best, and why?Here's one more bump hoping a few more people will vote. And if anybody else can think of other options (like 22-24), please share them.

Thanks,
Dave

12squared
08-07-2017, 08:38 AM
Given your equipment and how fast it played, the 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2 appears to to give you the best chance of ensuring you had the proper angle on the 2 to break up the 3 cluster. I didn't like breaking up the 3 ball cluster prior to making the 2 because you are not assured of shape.

Slower cloth and tighter pockets would change my selection to one of the safeties.

Good work Doctor.

dr_dave
08-07-2017, 08:43 AM
Given your equipment and how fast it played, the 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2 appears to to give you the best chance of ensuring you had the proper angle on the 2 to break up the 3 cluster. I didn't like breaking up the 3 ball cluster prior to making the 2 because you are not assured of shape.

Slower cloth and tighter pockets would change my selection to one of the safeties.

Good work Doctor.Dave,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

The good thing about this approach is that the shot on the 2 is easy (assuming you draw the ball enough), and even if you miss the break-out (which you probably wouldn't), you can play one of the safeties.

I like it,
Dave

PS: Thank you for voting!

dr_dave
08-07-2017, 11:50 AM
I noticed that a lot of people so far have picked:

(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4

Here's a direct link to the shot in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m23s).

With the exact ball layout shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), this shot was very difficult for me and it took many attempts to get a good outcome. In fact, I think this shot option was the most difficult of all the shot options except for the 9-ball combo shots, which were brutal.

I had to use left spin to the throw the 1 enough to make it work. And both the line of aim and speed had to be nearly perfect. The amount of partial forward roll required to stun the CB forward was also a little hard to judge. Now, if there were slightly more angle on the shot, I would agree that this would be an excellent option; but with the ball layout in the diagram, it was extremely tough. Millimeters make a big difference here.

If you picked this option, try it out at a table with the CB and 1 positioned exactly as shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), and let me know if you still think it is a good choice.Has anybody else tried "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4" yet (using the exact ball layout shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383)) to see how difficult it is? Or is there something I'm missing?

Regards,
Dave

Petros Andrikop
08-07-2017, 01:10 PM
From one point of view it's good to explore the diversity of options in any case, but one should never forget that not all are equally good/effective in competitive Pool.

Playing good Pool is also about making the right choice at the right time, getting the most of it while saving valuable energy to go on.

Trying to clear this layout from this given position is really not easy at any level, not sure if any pro would go for it instead of playing a good aggressive safety, so I would stick with options 4 and 9 and would not go any further.

I already explained my vote (option 4, best way to break up the cluster - contact rail first - and letting the opponent with playing "away" from 1 for re-safe), not trying to be smart here just wanted to make this point.

dr_dave
08-07-2017, 01:26 PM
From one point of view it's good to explore the diversity of options in any case, but one should never forget that not all are equally good/effective in competitive Pool.

Playing good Pool is also about making the right choice at the right time, getting the most of it while saving valuable energy to go on.

Trying to clear this layout from this given position is really not easy at any level, not sure if any pro would go for it instead of playing a good aggressive safety, so I would stick with options 4 and 9 and would not go any further.

I already explained my vote (option 4, best way to break up the cluster - contact rail first - and letting the opponent with playing "away" from 1 for re-safe), not trying to be smart here just wanted to make this point.Well stated. Option 4 is also still my top choice after practicing all of the options.

Regardless, it was still fun and educational to explore and practice all of the other approaches too. I think I learned a lot in doing so. Also, sometimes based on where other balls might be on the table, we might be forced into some of these other types of shots, so I think this sort of practice is worthwhile.

Thank you for your input and vote,
Dave

dr_dave
08-07-2017, 01:35 PM
Trying to clear this layout from this given position is really not easy at any level, not sure if any pro would go for it instead of playing a good aggressive safety, so I would stick with options 4 and 9 and would not go any further.Have you tried "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4" yet, using the exact ball layout shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383)? This shot was very difficult for me to pull off, per my previous posts. There really wasn't enough of an angle to hit it reliably (without sidespin and throw and the perfect line and speed). For those interested, here's a direct link to the shot in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m23s). The shot in the video might make this option look easy to pull off, but it was not. It took many attempts (not shown in the video), and most left an open look at the 1 and/or did not break the cluster.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
08-08-2017, 07:10 AM
Well, it looks like the top 5 choices from the voting (with links to the individual shots in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ)) are:

(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=1m41s)
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m22s)
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=10m14s)
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=5m37s)
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=6m11s)

With the exact ball layout in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), I still think "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4" should not be on the list. I think anybody who tries the shot on an actual table would agree.

Thank you to everybody for voting and for the insightful posts. I learned a lot from this thread.

Regards,
Dave

Petros Andrikop
08-08-2017, 09:28 AM
Have you tried "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4" yet, using the exact ball layout shown in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383)? This shot was very difficult for me to pull off, per my previous posts. There really wasn't enough of an angle to hit it reliably (without sidespin and throw and the perfect line and speed). For those interested, here's a direct link to the shot in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m23s). The shot in the video might make this option look easy to pull off, but it was not. It took many attempts (not shown in the video), and most left an open look at the 1 and/or did not break the cluster.

Regards,
Dave

To be honest I haven't tried any of the options, I just estimated the situation out of my humble experience.

My objection with choice 9 has to to mainly with the outcome of the cluster break. I believe breaking the cluster through option 4 provides a better outcome, after all aggressive safety in general should achieve two things: tough re-safe and better chances for winning the frame afterwards. If the 3 isn't open enough after the break then it still remains not an easy task to run out.

I believe choice 4 is much better than choice 9 in both of these objectives, you have already shown good replies from behind the 8.

Congrats for providing once again inspiring work, we all learn through talking about the game in a healthy constructive way like this.

dr_dave
08-08-2017, 09:32 AM
To be honest I haven't tried any of the options, I just estimated the situation out of my humble experience.

My objection with choice 9 has to to mainly with the outcome of the cluster break. I believe breaking the cluster through option 4 provides a better outcome, after all aggressive safety in general should achieve two things: tough re-safe and better chances for winning the frame afterwards. If the 3 isn't open enough after the break then it still remains not an easy task to run out.

I believe choice 4 is much better than choice 9 in both of these objectives, you have already shown good replies from behind the 8.

Congrats for providing once again inspiring work, we all learn through talking about the game in a healthy constructive way like this.Thanks again for your insights, and for your kind remarks.

Best regards,
Dave

Cornerman
08-08-2017, 11:39 AM
I'd like to know what Justin Bergman would do.

Freddie <~~~ can't be alone

dr_dave
08-08-2017, 12:21 PM
I'd like to know what Justin Bergman would do.

Freddie <~~~ can't be alone... or Efren.

Maybe some people out there who know top players can ask them what they would choose, and let us know.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
08-09-2017, 07:43 AM
Well, it looks like the top 5 choices from the voting (with links to the individual shots in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ)) are:

(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=1m41s)
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m22s)
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=10m14s)
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=5m37s)
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=6m11s)

With the exact ball layout in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383), I still think "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4" should not be on the list. I think anybody who tries the shot on an actual table would agree.

Thank you to everybody for voting and for the insightful posts. I learned a lot from this thread.We've gotten a lot more votes the last few days and "(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4 (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ?t=3m22s)" has taken the lead in the poll. Has anybody tried this shot with the exact ball layout in the diagram (http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=466383) and gotten it to work? It took me many attempts (not shown in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ)) and it worked only with the perfect amount of sidepin with the perfect line and perfect speed. I was hoping to hear from others who have tried this shot at a table.

Thanks,
Dave

MFB
08-09-2017, 11:50 AM
one in the corner shape for the two to play safe.

dr_dave
08-09-2017, 12:16 PM
one in the corner shape for the two to play safe.How do you plan to play safe on the 2? Do you just plan to hide the 2 behind the 7-9 cluster and/or the hide the CB behind the 8?

Thanks,
Dave

MFB
08-09-2017, 12:26 PM
How do you plan to play safe on the 2? Do you just plan to hide the 2 behind the 7-9 cluster and/or the hide the CB behind the 8?

Thanks,
Dave

After making the 1, I would position the CB so I could to bank the 2 behind the 3/4. And bring the CB one or three rails behind the 8.

To accomplish both would be quite the shot. To accomplish hiding the 2, or hiding CB would be acceptable. If I accomplish neither, hopefully my opponent will pocket the 2, and need to do something with the 3/4.

Either way, it progresses the game.

dr_dave
08-09-2017, 12:39 PM
After making the 1, I would position the CB so I could to bank the 2 behind the 3/4. And bring the CB one or three rails behind the 8.

To accomplish both would be quite the shot. To accomplish hiding the 2, or hiding CB would be acceptable. If I accomplish neither, hopefully my opponent will pocket the 2, and need to do something with the 3/4.

Either way, it progresses the game.That works.

FYI, I've added the following to the first post (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=457645):

(25) 1 in corner, play safe on 2 (CB behind 9 and/or 2 behind 3-4)

Anybody else have any ideas not already listed or demonstrated?

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
08-09-2017, 12:41 PM
Anybody else have any ideas not already listed or demonstrated?Here's what we have so far:

Options demonstrated in the video (https://youtu.be/5u0sxmLpoVQ):
(1) 1 in side with long-side shape on 2
(2) 1 in corner with short-side shape on 2
(3) 1 in corner, playing for bank on 2
(4) 1 into 3-4, hide behind 2
(5) 1 down table, hide behind 8
(6) kiss 1 off 9 into corner
(7) combo 1 into 9 for win
(8) combo 1 into 9, with possible kiss off 7
(9) hide behind 8, send 1 into 3-4
(10) hide 1 behind 3-4, with distance
(11) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out
(12) hide 1 behind 3-4 with slight break out and roll forward
(13) 1 in corner, follow to break out 3-4
(14) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to long side of 2
(15) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2
(16) 1 in corner, draw off cushion to short side of 2 for follow forward
(17) hit 1 into 3-4 cluster and hide behind 7-9
(18) hide CB from 1 using 7-9 blockers
(19) 1 in corner, follow for shape on 2
(20) after 1 and 2, kiss 3 off 4 to pocket 3-5 combo
(21) after 1 and 2, play safety on 3

Other options suggested:
(22) bank 1 into 4 to throw 3 into corner
(23) 1 in corner, follow with inside to break out 3-4 rail first for better shape on 2
(24) 1 into and/or behind 8, CB by 5
(25) 1 in corner, play safe on 2 (CB behind 9 and/or 2 behind 3-4)