PDA

View Full Version : radial consistency of tips?


smashmouth
08-05-2017, 05:11 PM
wouldn't this be more important than "radial consistency" in a shaft?

pdcue
08-05-2017, 05:22 PM
wouldn't this be more important than "radial consistency" in a shaft?

Not a problem.

Dale

WildWing
08-05-2017, 06:16 PM
wouldn't this be more important than "radial consistency" in a shaft?

You make the tip the same diameter as your ferrule, ideally. And, you make the top shape whatever you prefer, dime, nickel, or other shape.

Not sure what you're getting at...:confused:

billiardthought
08-05-2017, 07:45 PM
You make the tip the same diameter as your ferrule, ideally. And, you make the top shape whatever you prefer, dime, nickel, or other shape.

Not sure what you're getting at...:confused:

Inconsistency in the leather... what if the left half is harder/softer than the other side?

LAMas
08-05-2017, 10:14 PM
What if half is flat?

smashmouth
08-06-2017, 05:47 AM
just seems to me much attention, and r&d is paid to consistency in the shaft while tips in comparison have all manners of incosistencies in shape and densities and are still groomed by three dollar hand tools

mchnhed
08-06-2017, 06:46 AM
just seems to me much attention, and r&d is paid to consistency in the shaft while tips in comparison have all manners of incosistencies in shape and densities and are still groomed by three dollar hand tools
I think a lot of tip manufacturers would disagree with you.
Consistency is one of the things you want to strive for in a tip.
There's a couple of people here on AzB that take pride in their research and development of their tips.
Not sure of the quality but they sure have a following.
I'm planning on trying them out soon.
Maybe they will send me a sample for this shameless plug?

SIB and Ultraskin Layered Tips
http://www.layeredcuetips.com/
AzB member discount http://www.layeredcuetips.com/index1.php

The Scientific Tip
Ki-Tech Tips
Outsville.com https://outsville.com/products/ki-tech-single-layered-performance-tips?variant=4893396740
Text him for a 20% discount.

Pooldawg8's Milk Duds
Send him a PM thru AzB.
Discussion: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?400382&p=5781667#post5781667

General Tips Discussion: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?452847&p=5881725#post5881725

smashmouth
08-06-2017, 07:00 AM
ok, but surely you can't disagree that radial consistency in current tips does not approach anywhere near the degree of tolerances in something like a revo

im wondering if a perfectly contructed tip that measured perfectly would have more value on a cheap wooden shaft than say a revo with today's current top tips

garczar
08-06-2017, 07:44 AM
Last time i checked tips are made from COWS and PIGS. I don't care how meticulous the construction method is you are NEVER going to eliminate all inconsistencies. As long as its shaped and chalked correctly the current crop of tips today are incredibly well made and offer repeatable performance. I personally think you're worried about a problem that for all intents and purposes really doesn't exist.

smashmouth
08-06-2017, 07:55 AM
not worried, just curious as to potential results on the hypothetical above
and synthetic tips will be the future

garczar
08-06-2017, 08:05 AM
Synthetic tips(for playing, not breaking) will require an entirely new material. There have been attempts at making synth. tips in the past and they were woefully inferior to even plain-jane tips like LePro's and Triangles. Leather's properties are ideally suited for billiard tips and so far nothing even comes close as a replacement. Sidebar: a few yrs. back one of the big baseball glove makers was looking at a non-leather material. In field trials players universally rejected it. It worked okay but the feel/texture just wasn't right. Its that feel/texture/feedback area where synth. tips are going to struggle with.

mchnhed
08-06-2017, 08:05 AM
ok, but surely you can't disagree that radial consistency in current tips does not approach anywhere near the degree of tolerances in something like a revo
im wondering if a perfectly contructed tip that measured perfectly would have more value on a cheap wooden shaft than say a revo with today's current top tips
How are current tips not made radially correct?
Please explain and give some corrective suggestions.

In a 1/2" diameter x 3/8" tall piece of leather there isn't much room for inconsistency.

Layered tips are much like radial shafts. Each layer compensates for inconsistencies in the above and below layer, just like wood-grain differences being counterbalanced in multi-piece radial shafts.

Unless you were to use synthetic material for a cue tip. One piece or layered. Then you could have "radial consistency".
But all attempts using synthetic material for cue tips have failed so far.

It is possible to have useable consistency in a piece of leather as long as QC procedures are used from hide selection thru production..

garczar
08-06-2017, 08:13 AM
How are current tips not made radially correct?
Please explain and give some corrective suggestions.

In a 1/2" diameter x 3/8" tall piece of leather there isn't much room for inconsistency.

Layered tips are much like radial shafts. Each layer compensates for inconsistencies in the above and below layer, just like wood-grain differences being counterbalanced in multi-piece radial shafts.

Unless you were to use synthetic material for a cue tip. One piece or layered. Then you could have "radial consistency".
But all attempts using synthetic material for cue tips have failed so far.

It is possible to have useable consistency in a piece of leather as long as QC procedures are used from hide selection thru production..Totally agree here. I'm curious as to how one would even test for R.C. in a tip. I guess you could set-up a shot and rotate the cue a tiny amount for each shot and see if the tip had bad/dead/bouncy spots. Pretty sure it would be just a colossal waste of time.

mchnhed
08-06-2017, 08:25 AM
[QUOTE=smashmouth;5941716]ok, but surely you can't disagree that radial consistency in current tips does not approach anywhere near the degree of tolerances in something like a Revo.

I would not be so sure that a Revo shaft is made as well as you think.
Where is the design data? Tests results?
The chemistry of the resin, unseen resin bubbles in the weave, incorrect curing temps.
Maybe the shaft is or needs to thicker in some areas and thinner in another area.
Revo should inspect it with ultrasound then cut it in half and show us the results.

I would love to have some of the top golf shaft and bicycle frame designers help with a carbon fiber pool cue design.
There is a guy who analyzes carbon frames by using ultrasound, scientific methods and cutting frames apart.
Looks beautiful on the outside.
Ugly and dangerous on the inside.

Cutting up carbon frames
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbg5hCRyvs

garczar
08-06-2017, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE=smashmouth;5941716]ok, but surely you can't disagree that radial consistency in current tips does not approach anywhere near the degree of tolerances in something like a Revo.[/B]
I would not be so sure that a Revo shaft is made as well as you think.
The chemistry of the resin, unseen resin bubbles in weave, incorrect curing temps.
Maybe themshaft needs to thicker in some areas and thinner in another area.

I would love to have some of the top golf shaft and bicycle frame designers help with a carbon fiber shaft design.
There is a guy who analyzes carbon frames by using ultrasound, scientific methods and cutting frames apart.

Cutting up carbon frames
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbg5hCRyvsNo expert but i used to do a lot of golf-club repair/building. When CF shafts showed-up one of the BIG problems was the use of too much epoxy in the matrix. Over the yrs MUCH higher quality CF has allowed shafts makers to greatly reduce the amount of epoxy used. By using different modulus(stiffness) fibers and varying the weave/lay-up process current shafts can be built to fit any golfer. I'm sure pool shafts will go the same route. I'd bet that Aldila or Fujikura could build a super pool shaft if they wanted to.

mchnhed
08-06-2017, 08:54 AM
[QUOTE=mchnhed;5941773]No expert but i used to do a lot of golf-club repair/building. When CF shafts showed-up one of the BIG problems was the use of too much epoxy in the matrix. Over the yrs MUCH higher quality CF has allowed shafts makers to greatly reduce the amount of epoxy used. By using different modulus(stiffness) fibers and varying the weave/lay-up process current shafts can be built to fit any golfer. I'm sure pool shafts will go the same route. I'd bet that Aldila or Fujikura could build a super pool shaft if they wanted to.
Very good point GWAR.
Who knows more about designing and testing carbon shafts then golf shaft manufacturers.
They know more about stiffness/whippiness then anyone.
They know how to test all aspects of a shaft.
I see a day where design and testing from golf shaft manufacturers is used by a cue manufacturer to make a correctly designed and made carbon Pool Cue.

smashmouth
08-06-2017, 02:04 PM
How are current tips not made radially correct?
Please explain and give some corrective suggestions.

In a 1/2" diameter x 3/8" tall piece of leather there isn't much room for inconsistency.

Layered tips are much like radial shafts. Each layer compensates for inconsistencies in the above and below layer, just like wood-grain differences being counterbalanced in multi-piece radial shafts.

Unless you were to use synthetic material for a cue tip. One piece or layered. Then you could have "radial consistency".
But all attempts using synthetic material for cue tips have failed so far.

It is possible to have useable consistency in a piece of leather as long as QC procedures are used from hide selection thru production..

wrong on all points

mchnhed
08-06-2017, 02:38 PM
I am going to be Civil and ask for you to explain your statement.
"Wrong on all points."
"The Sky is Green" may be a statement but provides no evidence to back it up.

wrong on all points

How are current tips not made radially correct?
Please explain and give some corrective suggestions.

In a 1/2" diameter x 3/8" tall piece of leather there isn't much room for inconsistency.

Layered tips are much like radial shafts. Each layer compensates for inconsistencies in the above and below layer, just like wood-grain differences being counterbalanced in multi-piece radial shafts.

Unless you were to use synthetic material for a cue tip. One piece or layered. Then you could have "radial consistency".
But all attempts using synthetic material for cue tips have failed so far.

It is possible to have useable consistency in a piece of leather as long as QC procedures are used from hide selection thru production..

Johnny Rosato
08-06-2017, 02:45 PM
Inconsistency in the leather... what if the left half is harder/softer than the other side?
For shots with little or no english, (centerball hits), turn the hard side ^ (up). For shots where you need to really juice it turn the soft side ^ (up). Hope this helps!

conetip
08-07-2017, 03:09 AM
[QUOTE=smashmouth;5941716]ok, but surely you can't disagree that radial consistency in current tips does not approach anywhere near the degree of tolerances in something like a Revo.

I would not be so sure that a Revo shaft is made as well as you think.
Where is the design data? Tests results?
The chemistry of the resin, unseen resin bubbles in the weave, incorrect curing temps.
Maybe the shaft is or needs to thicker in some areas and thinner in another area.
Revo should inspect it with ultrasound then cut it in half and show us the results.

I would love to have some of the top golf shaft and bicycle frame designers help with a carbon fiber pool cue design.
There is a guy who analyzes carbon frames by using ultrasound, scientific methods and cutting frames apart.
Looks beautiful on the outside.
Ugly and dangerous on the inside.

Cutting up carbon frames
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbg5hCRyvs

Those frames were not laid up by competent composite engineers in that bike frame. It it were, there would not have been those ugly miss placed pieces inside there.
Making composite structures is very time consuming for sure. You are right about the resin to product ratio, and it is about 34% to 35% by volume if the material is correctly wetted to every fibre. Less than that and you have a dry or under supported structure. More than that, and you don't have a structure at it's best. Cues are in interesting challenge and the 1st ones I did were really terrible. When I made it and did not follow a standard cue profile it worked. Predator company have been working on a carbon cue for a very long time.
With carbon cue shafts, it is not just a matter of having it at a particular wall section. There are a lot of other factors that come into play to make them work.
So much work has gone into trying to make the next generation cue tips as well. And like the carbon shafts, the cue tips play differently for different people. I have a test cue with several different tips. It takes about 10 tips of different hardness and what ever other properties that have to satisfy about 90% of the people. The remaining 10% won't ever like a carbon shaft no matter what tip it has. I did a test one day with 10 people . Only 2 liked the same 2 tips out of the selection of tips I had that day. Surprisingly, only 1 person liked the Moori med. The tips were numbered and only the Super Pro being red and the Elkmaster was obvious as to what it was.
As for radial consistency, if you keep playing the same side of the tip the whole time, that area that gets striked the most becomes the hardest.
Neil