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cleary
08-14-2017, 07:56 AM
Living in the Northeast, I often get asked my my friends why I don't play in the Turning Stone tournaments.

First off, I'm terrible and it's a waste of $200+

But more importantly I don't like their policy. In order to play in the tournament, you must sign up about 9 months early because it fills up so quickly. It's not super easy to plan what I'll be doing on a weekend in 9 months unless it's something very important, things can change. Thing is, if you back out of the tournament 6 months before, Zuglan doesn't refund your money. That sucks. What sucks even more is that he still fills your spot in the tournament. Where does that money go if he doesn't refund? To the prize fund? To his pocket? Who knows... either way, that's super shady. I've had several friends try to give their spot away or sell their spot, only to be told they're not able. They lose their money and their spot gets taken. Stupid.

crazysnake
08-14-2017, 08:10 AM
I like Zuglan, and I like Turning Stone. I think from his end he's just protecting himself, and that seems fair.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

garczar
08-14-2017, 08:31 AM
I like Zuglan, and I like Turning Stone. I think from his end he's just protecting himself, and that seems fair.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using TapatalkTotally agree. The way i see tourn. entry fee is kinda like a deposit on an apartment. Its not the TD's problem if a player can't make it. Things can (and often do) happen between the the time money is sent and the event but that's on the player. Can't speak for Mr. Zuglan here but i'd predict that those un-returned funds are used to help run the tour. He must be doing something right as its one of the longest running tours in the country.

JAM
08-14-2017, 08:45 AM
Living in the Northeast, I often get asked my my friends why I don't play in the Turning Stone tournaments.

First off, I'm terrible and it's a waste of $200+

But more importantly I don't like their policy. In order to play in the tournament, you must sign up about 9 months early because it fills up so quickly. It's not super easy to plan what I'll be doing on a weekend in 9 months unless it's something very important, things can change. Thing is, if you back out of the tournament 6 months before, Zuglan doesn't refund your money. That sucks. What sucks even more is that he still fills your spot in the tournament. Where does that money go if he doesn't refund? To the prize fund? To his pocket? Who knows... either way, that's super shady. I've had several friends try to give their spot away or sell their spot, only to be told they're not able. They lose their money and their spot gets taken. Stupid.

As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)

Koop
08-14-2017, 09:20 AM
I love the Turning Stone events and think Mike does one of the best jobs in the business. That said, I don't get the no refund thing either. It could be as simple as, if you need to withdraw, as soon as your spot is filled you get your money back. That way he ensures the spot is paid for and someone who can't make it isn't out that money. I would be ok if he kept the money because the spot didn't fill. If it fills there should be a stipulation that you can then get refunded.

8ballr
08-14-2017, 09:21 AM
Not refunding your money is a pile of crap.

ChicagoRJ
08-14-2017, 09:34 AM
Not refunding your money is a pile of crap.

Well, it only took 94 posts, but you finally got one right. lol

I figure if I can refund your money for chalk because you don't like it, certainly, a tourney can refund money when another buyer is lined up, willing and able, to pay for the privilege. I can't sell "used" chalk, so it would be a loss for me if someone every decided to return it ;)

ChicagoRJ
08-14-2017, 09:36 AM
As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)

Well said Jennie ;)

cleary
08-14-2017, 11:09 AM
As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)

I'm all for the positives of that tournament and I agree, people get paid and that's awesome. I just cannot understand why he keeps the money. I personally know two who signed up a long time ago and now are not able to play. That's $400 just from people I know. Honestly, I just think it's a shady move to not refund if he fills the spot and thought it's worthy of a post for those who do not know this policy.

I'd love to meet you too. Come on up!

buckets
08-14-2017, 11:26 AM
Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I would assume it's to deter people from signing up if they aren't going to make a real effort to get there.

If the funds are used to promote/execute the event, then I don't see a problem with it.

cleary
08-14-2017, 11:39 AM
I would assume it's to deter people from signing up if they aren't going to make a real effort to get there.

If the funds are used to promote/execute the event, then I don't see a problem with it.

That wouldn't be as big of a deal if you didn't have to sign up so far in advance. Most non-pros are going to struggle to plan that far out for something they're doing for fun.

The solution is simple. Open the field up or refund if you're able to replace them.. take a small cut for your troubles if you need but $200 is shitty business in my opinion. There's always a waiting list so as far as I'm concerned, there's no good excuse for not refunding something. Shit, at least give me a credit to play in a future event!

alstl
08-14-2017, 01:00 PM
I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.

iusedtoberich
08-14-2017, 01:06 PM
I had no idea there was a no-refund policy. That's nuts if you ask me. I can understand if you cancelled a few days before the event (or a set date by Zuglan), maybe no refund then. I can also understand if Zuglan kept a "processing fee". And I can also understand if he refunded the money a month after the event was held. But to not give it back at all?

This is the only bad thing I've ever heard about Zuglan. Yikes.

Can anyone else corroborate this is true besides Cleary? Not that I don't believe you, its just this is almost unbelievable in any business. There are probably even state laws regarding refunds that he might be breaking. (Not a lawyer, or even armchair lawyer, ha ha)

ideologist
08-14-2017, 01:19 PM
I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.

If I entered the tournament, puleld a Mike Sigel and snapped my cue as my opponent lagged, I'd be out a refund too.

If I sold my spot to another horse a month before the race, what's the problem?

bradsh98
08-14-2017, 01:29 PM
People like the idea of playing in these events. They say that they will be there, and then when the time comes, they don't show up. Requiring payment in advance is the best way to limit this.

I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event. If Mike wants to use that money for hookers and cocaine, that's his prerogative. I don't even care if he wastes the rest of it.

As a side note, the event doesn't typically fill until about a month or so prior.

ChicagoRJ
08-14-2017, 01:53 PM
People like the idea of playing in these events. They say that they will be there, and then when the time comes, they don't show up. Requiring payment in advance is the best way to limit this.

I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event. If Mike wants to use that money for hookers and cocaine, that's his prerogative. I don't even care if he wastes the rest of it.

As a side note, the event doesn't typically fill until about a month or so prior.

If that is so, then why can't I sell my spot to someone else. After all, I paid for it. If I back out and find someone to take my place, no harm and no foul.

demartini rocks
08-14-2017, 01:54 PM
if this has happened before in past turning stone events then you should by now what you are signing up for and getting into.
if this just this year then yeah it's crappy but keep this mind in knowing what you will be signing up for in future turning stone events.
I am curious though-does the guy who keeps that money indulge with hookers, food from reservation required eateries, a day at the racetrack, all of the above?

demartini rocks
08-14-2017, 01:55 PM
does this happen a lot in other major tournaments throughout the entire country?

bradsh98
08-14-2017, 02:03 PM
I don't have all the answers, and I don't want to pretend to. If I had to guess, it's because it creates an additional headache for Mike to manage...

-Player A sells his spot to Player B. Player A notifies Mike. Mike has to go through the list and make a revision, which may or may not be a simple task. Imagine if 20 players do the same, it gets to be a chore.

-Let's say that Player B claims that he bought Player A's spot (maybe he did, maybe he didn't). Both players show up to play, and there is an argument.. Mike only received payment from Player A. Another headache that Mike shouldn't have to deal with.

These are just two very simple examples, but I'm certain there could be a number of other scenarios. Bottom line is: these are the rules, and I am sure that Mike has a good reason for doing things the way that he does. We just may not be privy to the knowledge that brought him to make these decisions. There is always more to the story.

ChicagoRJ
08-14-2017, 02:06 PM
I don't have all the answers, and I don't want to pretend to. If I had to guess, it's because it creates an additional headache for Mike to manage...

-Player A sells his spot to Player B. Player A notifies Mike. Mike has to go through the list and make a revision, which may or may not be a simple task. Imagine if 20 players do the same, it gets to be a chore.

-Let's say that Player B claims that he bought Player A's spot (maybe he did, maybe he didn't). Both players show up to play, and there is an argument.. Mike only received payment from Player A. Another headache that Mike shouldn't have to deal with.

These are just two very simple examples, but I'm certain there could be a number of other scenarios. Bottom line is: these are the rules, and I am sure that Mike has a good reason for doing things the way that he does. We just may not be privy to the knowledge that brought him to make these decisions. There is always more to the story.

ok, same argument. I tell him I can't make it, he quickly fills it himself with another player, and refunds me only when he gets another player to take his spot. He can even take a "restocking" fee for his troubles. THis is have been going on for decades and it not a difficult process. But I guess it's just easier to just pocket someone else's money.

Hotels do it all the time, and they have more rooms than players, but somehow, the guy working for min wage at the front desk can some how pull this off ??

bradsh98
08-14-2017, 02:09 PM
I am curious though-does the guy who keeps that money indulge with hookers, food from reservation required eateries, a day at the racetrack, all of the above?

That was a joke.. I cannot truthfully speak to what Mike may or may not spend the additional money on. I will say, though I don't really know him personally, he seems to be a respectable person. At least, that was my impression, from the few interactions that I have shared with him.

In regards to your other question, this is not a new policy. To my knowledge, the entry has always been non-refundable.

skip100
08-14-2017, 02:14 PM
I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

JAM
08-14-2017, 02:17 PM
I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

There is one exception, though, to this line of thinking. If I buy a ticket and do not show up, nobody else can sit in that seat if I am not there. The establishment cannot re-sell my seat if I paid for it. I can, however, sell my ticket to somebody else. Therein lies the rub.

Tournaments, however, are different. It could be -- and I'm just guessing -- that Mike advertises who is coming to the event. If a pro suddenly cancels out at the last minute, as what happened to Greg Sullivan in the Derby City in Dixie happening at the same time as Bonus Ball -- those who came to see the pros are disappointed because those pros, as advertised previously, will not be there. That is one logical line of thinking.

bradsh98
08-14-2017, 02:24 PM
ok, same argument. I tell him I can't make it, he quickly fills it himself with another player, and refunds me only when he gets another player to take his spot. He can even take a "restocking" fee for his troubles. THis is have been going on for decades and it not a difficult process. But I guess it's just easier to just pocket someone else's money.

Hotels do it all the time, and they have more rooms than players, but someone, the guy working for min wage at the front desk can some how pull this off ??

I see your point.. You can make any comparison that you want, and I could think up a few myself.. However, I still believe that offering a refund will cause more harm than good.

Since every event has filled for the past 10 years, I would suggest that the majority of players don't have a problem with the policies.

Get_A_Grip
08-14-2017, 02:28 PM
There is one exception, though, to this line of thinking. If I buy a ticket and do not show up, nobody else can sit in that seat if I am not there. The establishment cannot re-sell my seat if I paid for it. I can, however, sell my ticket to somebody else. Therein lies the rub.

Tournaments, however, are different. It could be -- and I'm just guessing -- that Mike advertises who is coming to the event. If a pro suddenly cancels out at the last minute, as what happened to Greg Sullivan in the Derby City in Dixie happening at the same time as Bonus Ball -- those who came to see the pros are disappointed because those pros, as advertised previously, will not be there. That is one logical line of thinking.
Heck, at a local pool room that I used to go to my brother and I were playing pool for a couple hours and were drinking. We decided to leave and go someplace else. However, we forgot to take the balls back to the counter and to pick up my Driver's License.

At the end of the night I realized that I never picked up my ID from the front desk or paid. We returned there and went to our table and some other guys were playing. So I go to the front desk to get my ID and pay, and the person behind the desk (daughter of the owner) charges me for 8 hours of time! -- the full amount from when we first got the balls and "checked-in", even though they had "re-rented" our table to others.

We tried to make the very obvious logical argument, but she wouldn't budge. I used to go there all of the time and dump tons of money there, but I had to stop going there out of principle. Some people are just more greedy than others.

skip100
08-14-2017, 02:29 PM
Heck, at a local pool room that I used to go to my brother and I were playing pool for a couple hours and were drinking. We decided to leave and go someplace else. However, we forgot to take the balls back to the counter and to pick up my Driver's License.

At the end of the night I realized that I never picked up my ID from the front desk or paid. We returned there and went to our table and some other guys were playing. So I go to the front desk to get my ID and pay, and the person behind the desk (daughter of the owner) charges me for 8 hours of time! -- the full amount from when we first got the balls and "checked-in", even though they had "re-rented" our table to others.

We tried to make the very obvious logical argument but she wouldn't budge. I used to go there all of the time and dump tons of money there, but I had to stop going there out of principle. Some people are just more greedy than others.
That's a good way to get a little money now and lose a lot of money later.

BmoreMoney
08-14-2017, 03:12 PM
Just a few thoughts; mind you I don't know that much about this event specifically , so these are just in general. First with the no refund - well fwiw I would refund minus $50 " restocking fees, administrative costs ". There is another angle to this though that we may not have thought of. With how popular this event is and how many big na,email pros involved, there's a possibility that once one of these big names signs up their name is used to promote the event. Folks may literally come to event just to see them - then when they don't show you may have a pissed off customer for life due to the disappointment along with them possibly rearranging their schedule along with whatever they spent to make the trip. Also; while I don't know EXACTLY how this works into it but I'd bet it does, being no gate I'd bet that Mike gets a " cut " of the rooms booked, and more importantly the number of folks he brings into the casino - for obvious reasons. I'd also bet these numbers can be significant , to the point where it very well may be his biggest money maker and somehow these cancelations throw a monkey wrench into it in some way.

As far as not being able to " sell " or swap your spot - I 100% understand and agree with that. This is an EXTREMELY popular event. As with any extremely popular concert or really anything you need " tickets " for there could be massive " scalping " - many folks would buy up all the spots right away or work with a group of people to get as many spots as possible with the sole intention of reselling those spots for as much as they could. This scenario ALWAYS SUCKS for the patrons, the customers, basically the players and would really hurt this event quickly and could potentially kill it all together. This kinda thing even hurts when theyre 20,000 " tickets ", so think of the impact on such a " small " availability.

watchez
08-14-2017, 03:46 PM
I'm all for the positives of that tournament and I agree, people get paid and that's awesome. I just cannot understand why he keeps the money. I personally know two who signed up a long time ago and now are not able to play. That's $400 just from people I know. Honestly, I just think it's a shady move to not refund if he fills the spot and thought it's worthy of a post for those who do not know this policy.

I'd love to meet you too. Come on up!

I know two more that are paid and signed up and now can't attend with a LEGITIMATE reason. (no I won't name their names). So that is another $400 into Zuglan's pocket. Maybe it is part of the business plan to c0ver the added money and walk away with a profit.

cleary
08-14-2017, 03:50 PM
I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.

That makes no sense.

watchez
08-14-2017, 03:50 PM
I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

If I buy a ticket for a Southwest airlines flight, I can cancel up to 10 minutes prior to take off and get a credit. So they keep me as a customer and get my money towards another flight. And they keep me as a customer because it breeds loyalty.

cleary
08-14-2017, 03:58 PM
I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event.

If the TD wants to keep the money, then I would want to keep my spot and take two forfeits.

cleary
08-14-2017, 04:07 PM
It's sad that anyone can defend this. I'm glad it's never happened to me but now I personally know at least 4 people from this current event that are out $200 yet his field will fill. Way to scam $800+...

Cardigan Kid
08-14-2017, 04:14 PM
After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

watchez
08-14-2017, 04:17 PM
After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

mmwtdh
08-14-2017, 04:23 PM
If the TD wants to keep the money, then I would want to keep my spot and take two forfeits.

This.

If I knew I was not getting my money back and he was gonna fill and collect again, I'd just no show.....

Cardigan Kid
08-14-2017, 04:23 PM
Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

Absolutely it is. It's explained before hand that's what happens, and every player agrees to it.
I just closed on a construction contract where I felt half a dozen things the bank can do is a "rip off" but I was free to either agree to those terms or walk away.

The same with entering into this tournament.

Joe_Jaguar
08-14-2017, 04:51 PM
After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

That is odd, Daz had stated before that he wouldn't play at the tournament because of the shitty 9 ball counting on the break rule.

Watch the streaming table this event and watch the never ending racking problems, and no TD in sight. Hardly professional :rolleyes: Everyone will act like it is the first time it has ever happened.

Go 'Zug :rotflmao1:

BmoreMoney
08-14-2017, 04:57 PM
I know two more that are paid and signed up and now can't attend with a LEGITIMATE reason. (no I won't name their names). So that is another $400 into Zuglan's pocket. Maybe it is part of the business plan to c0ver the added money and walk away with a profit.

Lol, you say that as if profit is a bad thing lol. There should be profit, there needs to be profit. Profit is why the casino is there in the first place to even hold tourney, Diamond makes money - hence why theyre tables for the players to play on, and on and on. I seriously doubt dropouts are part of Zuglans business plan lol. On top of that; being that apparently he is extremely UP FRONT with the policies about refunds so what even if it were? I already explained earlier why it is not good to be able to transfer a spot, so that's already been explained well. Many folks are talking about " professional " and what not. Well maybe theres not a lot of folks here that are from the business world but being professional is when making a contract " as in signing up for a spot in the tourney - mind you this is not your $5 Friday night tourney at your local hole in the wall bar " you honor your end of the contract OR they're penalties to you for not doing so. In this case it's your entry fee - really not a big deal.

cardiac kid
08-14-2017, 05:44 PM
Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

Steve,

Having played in well over 100 Joss events over the years, including Turning Stone, it was the single best run event I attended all year long. Ever notice some events charge significantly more for late or same day entries? Why should Mike have byes on the board when he has a waiting list of players who wish to play. As soon as he calls a name at the players meeting and that person is not in attendance and can not be reached, he fills the spot from those present. This is a professionally run event each and every time. Realize it is a long trip from your area but you should plan to play there once. Once you see the venue and how it's run, you might change your opinion.

Lyn

iusedtoberich
08-14-2017, 06:35 PM
After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

Thanks for sharing another side of the no-refund policy. After reading this, I can see Zuglan's side, and I kind of like it:)

wahcheck
08-14-2017, 06:49 PM
As the saying goes, I got no dog in this fight, but.......

I may not like the no-refund rule, but if I know ahead of time, and I pay the $200 entry fee, I got no right to complain or whine ..

watchez
08-14-2017, 07:09 PM
Lol, you say that as if profit is a bad thing lol. There should be profit, there needs to be profit. Profit is why the casino is there in the first place to even hold tourney, Diamond makes money - hence why theyre tables for the players to play on, and on and on. I seriously doubt dropouts are part of Zuglans business plan lol. On top of that; being that apparently he is extremely UP FRONT with the policies about refunds so what even if it were? I already explained earlier why it is not good to be able to transfer a spot, so that's already been explained well. Many folks are talking about " professional " and what not. Well maybe theres not a lot of folks here that are from the business world but being professional is when making a contract " as in signing up for a spot in the tourney - mind you this is not your $5 Friday night tourney at your local hole in the wall bar " you honor your end of the contract OR they're penalties to you for not doing so. In this case it's your entry fee - really not a big deal.


You should profit off of legitimate items. Not because you have a rule that states you don't get your money back and the incoming player also has to pay.

So if I sign up to play in this event, my brother dies a day before the event, it's ok cause the TD needs to profit --- which to you isn't a bad thing that he is profiting in this way.

watchez
08-14-2017, 07:20 PM
Beyond all of this - people always want to compare pool to golf. I have a friend that is a pro golfer (qualified and played in last 3 US Opens). There is only entry fees for the qualifier events for golf. (Other events if you are invited, there is no entry fee).

Sooooo.......

For the web.com tour, if you pull out of the qualifier event 72 hours before your money is refunded and your spot is filled by another player.

For the US Open qualifier, you get a refund minus a $20 fee. And there's a lil bit more paperwork involved to play in a US Open qualifier.
https://tnpga.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/tnpga17/event/tnpga1720/agendas.htm?type=1&stype=12&hagenda=793d3325-0ad2-45c4-8647-da0cc9a5d7ba

Keep on pool world. You will continue to get no where and then sit back and complain why isn't it as big as say golf and wonder why.

ChicagoRJ
08-14-2017, 07:36 PM
I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

So, you refuse your money back from Hotels, airlines, etc. etc. man, that's pretty nice of you, I'll give you that ;)

alstl
08-14-2017, 08:21 PM
If the TD wants to keep the money, then I would want to keep my spot and take two forfeits.

I'm out $1,000 in airfare and hotel fees and the only reason I went was to see you play.

Where's my refund?

BeiberLvr
08-14-2017, 08:35 PM
- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Yes, if a player cancels then it should be the next person on the waiting list to take their spot, and not a buddy of theirs that isn't even on the list. But the player that cancels should still be issued a refund provided they cancel within a reasonable timeframe.



Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.


That should be accounted for in his original model. Having to rely on or use money from player cancellations is simply poor planning.

I could book a flight today to go to NY 9 months from now. Cancel it 2 months from now, and at most have to pay a small processing fee. But it's not like the flight company would keep all of my money, and say, "Oh sorry, we're going to put that money towards fuel and peanuts."

cardiac kid
08-14-2017, 08:52 PM
I've got a great idea :idea2:. All of you posters who think the Turning Stone is a rip off, just don't ever play there. Let the 128 players who twice a year enter enjoy themselves! Don't think MZ gives a rip about what you think of his event or the rules he runs the event by! Thanks.

Lyn

watchez
08-14-2017, 08:58 PM
I've got a great idea :idea2:. All of you posters who think the Turning Stone is a rip off, just don't ever play there. Let the 128 players who twice a year enter enjoy themselves! Don't think MZ gives a rip about what you think of his event or the rules he runs the event by! Thanks.

Lyn


Lyn --

60,000 people play in the APA.
Did you see the Facebook threads on the BCAPL and people backing out cause of the house rake?
People get involved in Calcuttas that rake 10%
I could go on and on.
Basically the pool world ain't that smart. And that's why it has been fvcked for decades.

Nick B
08-14-2017, 09:58 PM
Supply and Demand. He has more demand then spots. If everyday a restaurant sold out EVERY HAMBURGER what should the manager do? Raise prices. When you are not selling a physical product (ie something in a box) it's very unlikely you refund money (Airlines, Hotel rooms etc). MZ and Turning Stone event is one of the few events we should have zero issues with. Lets Review:
1. Free High Quality Stream
2. Players always get paid (I believe on the spot)
3. Tourney always runs like a pro event with no B.S. period.
4. Great spectator seating (not some pool room with limited seating and site lines)
5. MZ is well known fair and reputable industry leader

Checks all my boxes. The US Open (9 ball) and other events could learn from this. No silly long winded speeches, anthems, buglers etc. Just pool sir.

JAM
08-15-2017, 12:32 AM
Thanks for sharing another side of the no-refund policy. After reading this, I can see Zuglan's side, and I kind of like it:)

I agree. It makes more sense to me now.

I don't like the no-refund policy, but I understand the reasoning why now much better.

Thanks, Cardigan Kid, for sharing.

As far as making money, I know personally that pool tournaments are not a money-making venture. Mike does have to produce a fair amount of players in order for Turning Stone to keep adding money and offering the venue for free, and moving all those Diamond tables and equipment up there is not cheap.

I remember when we attended the Trump 10-Ball Challenge at the Trump Marina Casino, they charged a gate fee for spectators, including wives and stakehorses of the players. I can't remember what it was, but it was hefty. There was a brutal snow blizzard the day of the tournament, and they had to postpone they tournament for a day to allow the players to get there. More expenses to the players. The promoters, Gene Hooker, his son, and somebody else, lost big time promoting this event. It was a great facility, but even with the gate fees, it was a losing endeavor for the promoter.
The last day of the tournament, we had no room. The place was booked up. We scrambled to find a room, and we ended up staying in a dump down the street.

Turning Stone Casino is luxurious. Everything is under one roof, which is really nice.

Having spoken to Mike Zuglan in the past, I do know running this Joss Tour is not huge money-making venture for him. He does it out of his passion for pool. It is the longest-running regional tour in the nation. When the players tried to strong-arm him to give out byes and seeds to the so-called professional tour run by, I think, Johnny Archer, et al., he refused to change his rules. I love that about Mike. All players are treated equal. In fact, that is the reason for the genesis for the Joss Tour. Mike, a professional player himself, was sick of seeing other players treated with favoritism at events. He decided to run his own tournaments and make them fair, and the rest is history.

Now that I know the reasoning behind the no-refund policy, I do understand.

If you haven't been to the Turning Stone and attended one of these events, you're missing out. It is a beautiful environment for pool. My other half loves this place and Mike Zuglan's Joss Tour. We have some fond memories with the Joss Tour, and the suits at Turning Stone know McCready. He makes his presence known on the crap tables, and everything really is funny when you're winning big money.

Crap Table Committee that pooled their money together and backed Keith throwing the dice. Each put up $100. The $15,000 split between five of us was quite sweet. :D

rjb1168
08-15-2017, 03:03 AM
As the saying goes, I got no dog in this fight, but.......

I may not like the no-refund rule, but if I know ahead of time, and I pay the $200 entry fee, I got no right to complain or whine ..

******Agreed 100%! ******

I really liked what Mike Z. did with Mike D. match last year when they were picking apart each others rack, Well done Mike Z. , I liked and respected you for that! Each player was told they will pay the judge 50 bucks for racking with no rack inspection. What he racks is what you get, I loved it!

BeiberLvr
08-15-2017, 05:07 AM
******Agreed 100%! ******

I really liked what Mike Z. did with Mike D. match last year when they were picking apart each others rack, Well done Mike Z. , I liked and respected you for that! Each player was told they will pay the judge 50 bucks for racking with no rack inspection. What he racks is what you get, I loved it!

Why not just use the money that doesn't get refunded to pay for neutral rackers.

jay helfert
08-15-2017, 06:28 AM
Here's my take on all this and I will preface it by saying I have a lot of respect for Mike Zuglan. To run a successful tour like he has for so many years is an incredible thing in the pool world. That said, if it is known beforehand that there are NO refunds then it is incumbent on the player to make a decision ahead of time if he wants to take a chance by entering early. As far as I'm concerned if Mike makes it known in advance about the no refund policy then he has covered his bases. This should be stated somewhere in the advertising or promotional material for the tournament. To not do so would be wrong IMO.

trifectasss
08-15-2017, 02:21 PM
This.

If I knew I was not getting my money back and he was gonna fill and collect again, I'd just no show.....

This brings up a good point. What keeps no-shows from doing this? Shouldn't there be some incentive for them to notify in advance they aren't showing up? Like a 50 percent return? This then helps give people on the waiting list a chance to make plans. I'm going to assume there's a sign in requirement in case someone pays and doesn't cancel nor show. Doesn't that encourage people who paid far in advance to wait until the last minute before deciding? At least having some declining return based on when cancelled will give the people on waiting list a better chance of booking flights and rooms as well as planning time away from home or job.

BmoreMoney
08-15-2017, 02:47 PM
You should profit off of legitimate items. Not because you have a rule that states you don't get your money back and the incoming player also has to pay.

So if I sign up to play in this event, my brother dies a day before the event, it's ok cause the TD needs to profit --- which to you isn't a bad thing that he is profiting in this way.

You can refer back my statement what I would do. But; in the " real world " , a contract is a contract and if you agree to it and it doesn't work out for you well then tough luck. Just the way it is.

When I sell a car, boat, motorcycle or whatever and take a deposit ( which I rarely do anymore ) I make it very clear several times and put it in the paperwork that the deposit is totally NON REFUNDABLE and they have x # of days to pay balance. It's that simple. Do you own a house ? What about earnest money? This all is not uncommon at all and we're only talking couple hundred bucks in this case.

cleary
08-15-2017, 02:54 PM
I've got a great idea :idea2:. All of you posters who think the Turning Stone is a rip off, just don't ever play there. Let the 128 players who twice a year enter enjoy themselves! Don't think MZ gives a rip about what you think of his event or the rules he runs the event by! Thanks.

Lyn

That was the exact point of the thread. I'm not going to play in that event. Though, hopefully the word has spread to some who have thought about playing this event and know that it's shady.

iusedtoberich
08-15-2017, 02:57 PM
This brings up a good point. What keeps no-shows from doing this? Shouldn't there be some incentive for them to notify in advance they aren't showing up? Like a 50 percent return? This then helps give people on the waiting list a chance to make plans. I'm going to assume there's a sign in requirement in case someone pays and doesn't cancel nor show. Doesn't that encourage people who paid far in advance to wait until the last minute before deciding? At least having some declining return based on when cancelled will give the people on waiting list a better chance of booking flights and rooms as well as planning time away from home or job.

From one of the earlier posts in this thread, it seems that people come to the player's meeting anticipating no-shows. When Zuglan takes attendance at the meeting, and if you aren't there, he will fill your spot with these people waiting on standby.

The more I think about this, I absolutely love it now. Pool is FULL of crybabies, and people looking to hustle the system. I bet Zuglan came up with this no-refund policy because hustlers were trying to jerk him around years ago. He could have had a "fair to us in this thread refund policy", but instead, he came down hard, and made it absolutely no refunds. I love it. Get rid of all of the tire kickers and crybabies. More promoters like him in this game, please! I'd also like to add, you don't show up to your match, you are never allowed back. So many pros oversleep, or decide to go play golf instead of showing up. F that! Get rid of all of them.

cleary
08-15-2017, 02:58 PM
I have no issue with a no refund policy. My issue is if you have that policy, don't resell the spot and double dip. That's shady and if you don't think so, you're probably a shady person yourself.

cleary
08-15-2017, 03:02 PM
From one of the earlier posts in this thread, it seems that people come to the player's meeting anticipating no-shows. When Zuglan takes attendance at the meeting, and if you aren't there, he will fill your spot with these people waiting on standby.

The more I think about this, I absolutely love it now. Pool is FULL of crybabies, and people looking to hustle the system. I bet Zuglan came up with this no-refund policy because hustlers were trying to jerk him around years ago. He could have had a "fair to us in this thread refund policy", but instead, he came down hard, and made it absolutely no refunds. I love it. Get rid of all of the tire kickers and crybabies. More promoters like him in this game, please! I'd also like to add, you don't show up to your match, you are never allowed back. So many pros oversleep, or decide to go play golf instead of showing up. F that! Get rid of all of them.

Yea you should come down hard on someone who can no longer attend because they're having a child around that date. Or their sister is getting married and her selfish ass wouldn't reschedule around my tournament life. Come down hard on these everyday people who make that tournament tick. Definitely come down hard on them.

classiccues
08-15-2017, 03:07 PM
Anyone want to bet who the first complainer would be if someone gave back the no show money and it removed XXX amount from the prize fund?

JV

shinobi
08-15-2017, 03:19 PM
Anyone want to bet who the first complainer would be if someone gave back the no show money and it removed XXX amount from the prize fund?

JV

Except that:

a) Nobody said anything even remotely like that
b) That would be a valid complaint :grin-square:

iusedtoberich
08-15-2017, 03:36 PM
Yea you should come down hard on someone who can no longer attend because they're having a child around that date. Or their sister is getting married and her selfish ass wouldn't reschedule around my tournament life. Come down hard on these everyday people who make that tournament tick. Definitely come down hard on them.

No mercy. Off with their heads;)

trifectasss
08-15-2017, 10:01 PM
From one of the earlier posts in this thread, it seems that people come to the player's meeting anticipating no-shows. When Zuglan takes attendance at the meeting, and if you aren't there, he will fill your spot with these people waiting on standby.

The more I think about this, I absolutely love it now. Pool is FULL of crybabies, and people looking to hustle the system. I bet Zuglan came up with this no-refund policy because hustlers were trying to jerk him around years ago. He could have had a "fair to us in this thread refund policy", but instead, he came down hard, and made it absolutely no refunds. I love it. Get rid of all of the tire kickers and crybabies. More promoters like him in this game, please! I'd also like to add, you don't show up to your match, you are never allowed back. So many pros oversleep, or decide to go play golf instead of showing up. F that! Get rid of all of them.

Heck, I agree with you. By giving money back they would be encouraging a stampede to sign up with a very high percentage doing it for the small chance they can make it. Just wanting to lock up a spot "just in case". If you return their money it would set up that 40 percent of the the early entries would back out. During this process, a lot more players dedicated to the tournament would get shut out and have to be put on a waiting list. A waiting list that when your name is finally at the front of the line might be too late because you've made other plans in the 3 or 4 months since sign up.

It's pretty simple, this tournament is for people who will put this tournament on this date as a very high priority that only very important personal issues could top. In the case that happens, oh well, it's only 200 dollars, if it's that much of a hardship, maybe you shouldn't be entering such a high dollar tournament.

cleary
08-15-2017, 10:16 PM
Heck, I agree with you. By giving money back they would be encouraging a stampede to sign up with a very high percentage doing it for the small chance they can make it. Just wanting to lock up a spot "just in case". If you return their money it would set up that 40 percent of the the early entries would back out. During this process, a lot more players dedicated to the tournament would get shut out and have to be put on a waiting list. A waiting list that when your name is finally at the front of the line might be too late because you've made other plans in the 3 or 4 months since sign up.

It's pretty simple, this tournament is for people who will put this tournament on this date as a very high priority that only very important personal issues could top. In the case that happens, oh well, it's only 200 dollars, if it's that much of a hardship, maybe you shouldn't be entering such a high dollar tournament.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

KAP1976
08-16-2017, 06:18 AM
Something isn't a rip off when you're made aware of the terms and conditions well in advance and agree to them.

What Best Buy (actually Capital One) tried yesterday, hitting my card with $200 in interest because they stated I hadn't paid off the balance of an item in the 18-month interest-free period when it was paid off a month early, is a rip off.

Black-Balled
08-16-2017, 06:18 AM
I like how you were able to apply science to the matter and have determined 40% will register and not attend.

Stampede to sign up...people registering with low likelihood of actual attendance?

Hmmmph.




Heck, I agree with you. By giving money back they would be encouraging a stampede to sign up with a very high percentage doing it for the small chance they can make it. Just wanting to lock up a spot "just in case". If you return their money it would set up that 40 percent of the the early entries would back out. During this process, a lot more players dedicated to the tournament would get shut out and have to be put on a waiting list. A waiting list that when your name is finally at the front of the line might be too late because you've made other plans in the 3 or 4 months since sign up.

It's pretty simple, this tournament is for people who will put this tournament on this date as a very high priority that only very important personal issues could top. In the case that happens, oh well, it's only 200 dollars, if it's that much of a hardship, maybe you shouldn't be entering such a high dollar tournament.

Black-Balled
08-16-2017, 06:28 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

Yes...true.

In today's work environment, where all pre event tasks can be accomplished electronically,...

What's would difference be to offer 100% refund until 90d prior to event, maybe 50% until 30d prior, then perhaps no refunds inside the 30d.

trifectasss
08-16-2017, 07:39 AM
I like how you were able to apply science to the matter and have determined 40% will register and not attend.

Stampede to sign up...people registering with low likelihood of actual attendance?

Hmmmph.

You're right, 40% was a loose estimate and hypothetical, I should've stated that so as not to confuse you.

Yes, when signing up is 1/2 a year prior to an event there's going to be a major difference in the percentage that actually do attend when between a refund and no refund policy. That's not science, that's common sense.

trifectasss
08-16-2017, 07:55 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

You needn't have gone through the trouble. My comment wasn't directed toward the people that cry over eating a 200 dollar loss because they can't keep their commitments. Again, the tournament isn't for you, but it is for others. I'm sure you can find a tournament that will refund your 10 dollars when you don't show.

The only people that cry about the non-return policy are those that can't keep their commitments. I wouldn't care about those people either if I ran a business that sold out it's product every time either.

mikepage
08-16-2017, 09:31 AM
Imagine a company that sells a service to 101 customers for a buck each for an income of $101. The company has expenses $100 and so the profit is $1.

From the point of view of customer #57, the company is dead even without him, and so his dollar is pure profit: "they're making a dollar off of me!"

Bad logic? Yes of course. There are a hundred other people who could adopt the same myopic point of view. It is a kind of bad logic that is rampant around here, though....

When someone like Mr. Zuglan is planning the next big event, there is considerable pressure to hit a certain added $$ figure and total purse, and the plus columns and the minus columns on the planning spreadsheet are pretty long and complex. Trying to make the minus column not exceed the plus column is hard. Do you assume the fraction of no-shows, or late fees if applicable, will be similar to what it has been in years past? Of course you do. It is part of the planning. It is part of the big picture of what makes the event happen, not some sort of windfall free money.... It is incumbent on the organizers to be clear about the policy, and I don't know whether they are or not. But outside of that, there really is nothing to see here.

---except yet another example of criticizing someone who actually does something in our industry with voodoo keyboard economics...

buckets
08-16-2017, 09:40 AM
That wouldn't be as big of a deal if you didn't have to sign up so far in advance. Most non-pros are going to struggle to plan that far out for something they're doing for fun.

The solution is simple. Open the field up or refund if you're able to replace them.. take a small cut for your troubles if you need but $200 is shitty business in my opinion. There's always a waiting list so as far as I'm concerned, there's no good excuse for not refunding something. Shit, at least give me a credit to play in a future event!

Sorry, but if you make the commitment, then you make the commitment.

If you aren't serious about making the tournament a priority then Mike Zuglan does not want you to sign up.

buckets
08-16-2017, 09:42 AM
If that is so, then why can't I sell my spot to someone else. After all, I paid for it. If I back out and find someone to take my place, no harm and no foul.

Too complicated to manage I'd imagine. If I were a TD I would not allow this either.

buckets
08-16-2017, 09:46 AM
It's sad that anyone can defend this. I'm glad it's never happened to me but now I personally know at least 4 people from this current event that are out $200 yet his field will fill. Way to scam $800+...

Your friends broke their commitment. That is on them.

If they didn't agree with the refund policy, they did not have to purchase the spots.

buckets
08-16-2017, 09:48 AM
Yea you should come down hard on someone who can no longer attend because they're having a child around that date. Or their sister is getting married and her selfish ass wouldn't reschedule around my tournament life. Come down hard on these everyday people who make that tournament tick. Definitely come down hard on them.

Seeing as it takes 9 months to make a baby, yeah I'd think he'd have been able to plan around that one...

watchez
08-16-2017, 10:13 AM
Imagine a company that sells a service to 101 customers for a buck each for an income of $101. The company has expenses $100 and so the profit is $1.

From the point of view of customer #57, the company is dead even without him, and so his dollar is pure profit: "they're making a dollar off of me!"

Bad logic? Yes of course. There are a hundred other people who could adopt the same myopic point of view. It is a kind of bad logic that is rampant around here, though....

When someone like Mr. Zuglan is planning the next big event, there is considerable pressure to hit a certain added $$ figure and total purse, and the plus columns and the minus columns on the planning spreadsheet are pretty long and complex. Trying to make the minus column not exceed the plus column is hard. Do you assume the fraction of no-shows, or late fees if applicable, will be similar to what it has been in years past? Of course you do. It is part of the planning. It is part of the big picture of what makes the event happen, not some sort of windfall free money.... It is incumbent on the organizers to be clear about the policy, and I don't know whether they are or not. But outside of that, there really is nothing to see here.

---except yet another example of criticizing someone who actually does something in our industry with voodoo keyboard economics...

Just like everyone else disputing the original post of this thread, you missed the point of this thread. If he doesn't want to give refunds out cause it might hurt his bottom line, that is sorta fine. I would still give a refund if I was given notice and if I could fill the spot with a player on the waiting list. Beyond the fact that is not the case and your example above is flawed because he has a waiting list and it was explained people actually go to the tournament each time hoping to get in when someone doesn't show up. So he doesn't have a hole in his plus column under any circumstance.

The main issue is not that he won't give a refund, it is that he pockets the refund money and then takes another entry fee from the incoming player. The lesser issue is that he won't give a refund if you give him ample notice that you cannot attend. He gets the notice and he fills the spot beforehand. No harm no foul to his plus column.

As I compared this to golf, a legitimate sport, the non refund and subsequent pocketing of additional entry fees would never be done.

The mentality of, we should accept what someone does cause it is better than most, doesn't fly with me. There is a wrong and a right. There are no attaboys.

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 10:26 AM
Just like everyone else disputing the original post of this thread, you missed the point of this thread. If he doesn't want to give refunds out cause it might hurt his bottom line, that is sorta fine. I would still give a refund if I was given notice and if I could fill the spot with a player on the waiting list. Beyond the fact that is not the case and your example above is flawed because he has a waiting list and it was explained people actually go to the tournament each time hoping to get in when someone doesn't show up. So he doesn't have a hole in his plus column under any circumstance.

The main issue is not that he won't give a refund, it is that he pockets the refund money and then takes another entry fee from the incoming player. The lesser issue is that he won't give a refund if you give him ample notice that you cannot attend. He gets the notice and he fills the spot beforehand. No harm no foul to his plus column.

As I compared this to golf, a legitimate sport, the non refund and subsequent pocketing of additional entry fees would never be done.

The mentality of, we should accept what someone does cause it is better than most, doesn't fly with me. There is a wrong and a right. There are no attaboys.

I understand your point. I think in the case of pool though, the game is inherently full of hustlers and tire kickers. Its the nature of the beast. I don't know if golf is the same way or not, I have zero experience in that game. I think Zuglan knows this, and made the leash super tight on his players, on purpose. For sure he had the same ideas as everyone else in this thread. He's not an idiot. But the way he does it now, guarantees the people who sign up, are dead serious about playing.

Yes, unfortunately, there will be a handful of players where something comes up and they can't make it. I think the positives of this policy far outweigh the 200 or 300 those people are out.

mikepage
08-16-2017, 10:33 AM
Just like everyone else disputing the original post of this thread, you missed the point of this thread. If he doesn't want to give refunds out cause it might hurt his bottom line, that is sorta fine. I would still give a refund if I was given notice and if I could fill the spot with a player on the waiting list. Beyond the fact that is not the case and your example above is flawed because he has a waiting list and it was explained people actually go to the tournament each time hoping to get in when someone doesn't show up. So he doesn't have a hole in his plus column under any circumstance.

You missed my point Steve.

If in 2014, 2015, and 2016, the event broke even and collected 134, 135, and 133 entry fees for 128 slots, a projection for 2017 might be that 133 entry fees are collected. This is no different on the plus side than, say, Walmart assuming x% shoplifting on the down side.

cleary
08-16-2017, 10:55 AM
Seeing as it takes 9 months to make a baby, yeah I'd think he'd have been able to plan around that one...

The previous Turning Stone tournament was the first week of January. Let's say I went to play and took my wife up to watch. After she saw me destroy a top pro, she couldn't resist herself that night and we made passionate love. The next morning, I also signed up to play the next Turning Stone because I'm trying to make the Mosconi team.

About a month later, we find out a child is on the way. Oh how thrilled we are but.... "OH NO HONEY! EXACTLY 9 months from the conception date is the next Turning Stone! What should I do???? Should I honor my commitment so I'm not brutally shamed by some asshat on AZBilliards ANNDDDD lose $200 that would go to buying diapers? Or miss the birth of our child to play in this tournament." I would sure have some choices to make. I mean, I know what you would do...

So yea, maybe your 9 months thing has some holes. Keep working on a good excuse though.

cleary
08-16-2017, 10:56 AM
Just like everyone else disputing the original post of this thread, you missed the point of this thread. If he doesn't want to give refunds out cause it might hurt his bottom line, that is sorta fine. I would still give a refund if I was given notice and if I could fill the spot with a player on the waiting list. Beyond the fact that is not the case and your example above is flawed because he has a waiting list and it was explained people actually go to the tournament each time hoping to get in when someone doesn't show up. So he doesn't have a hole in his plus column under any circumstance.

The main issue is not that he won't give a refund, it is that he pockets the refund money and then takes another entry fee from the incoming player. The lesser issue is that he won't give a refund if you give him ample notice that you cannot attend. He gets the notice and he fills the spot beforehand. No harm no foul to his plus column.

As I compared this to golf, a legitimate sport, the non refund and subsequent pocketing of additional entry fees would never be done.

The mentality of, we should accept what someone does cause it is better than most, doesn't fly with me. There is a wrong and a right. There are no attaboys.

BINGO! Watchez gets it! How is this so tough?

watchez
08-16-2017, 10:59 AM
I understand your point. I think in the case of pool though, the game is inherently full of hustlers and tire kickers. Its the nature of the beast. I don't know if golf is the same way or not, I have zero experience in that game. I think Zuglan knows this, and made the leash super tight on his players, on purpose. For sure he had the same ideas as everyone else in this thread. He's not an idiot. But the way he does it now, guarantees the people who sign up, are dead serious about playing.

Yes, unfortunately, there will be a handful of players where something comes up and they can't make it. I think the positives of this policy far outweigh the 200 or 300 those people are out.

If a few innocent people go to jail along with the ones that are really guilty, that's ok. :o

And Mike Page, how do we know the event broke even? I don't know MIke Zuglan from Adam and he probably is a great guy, but most business people don't let youi know what they make cause that leads to people wanting to take advantage of them further.

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 11:00 AM
BINGO! Watchez gets it! How is this so tough?

Everyone gets it. Just some people have a different opinion on the matter;) At the end of the day, Zuglan's opinion is the only one that matters. You don't want to play, that's fine. There are 200 people in line that do, and don't mind the rules.

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 11:06 AM
If a few innocent people go to jail along with the ones that are really guilty, that's ok. :o

And Mike Page, how do we know the event broke even? I don't know MIke Zuglan from Adam and he probably is a great guy, but most business people don't let youi know what they make cause that leads to people wanting to take advantage of them further.

This isn't akin to serving jail time. Its someone's hobby. Let's be real here, if someone can afford a 200 entry pool tournament, travel, hotel, etc, they are not losing their livelihood if they must forfeit and not be refunded.

Page's point wasn't if Zuglan breaks even or not. It was simply that he might "expect" those extra entry fees from players that had to forfeit, when estimating his profit/loss sheets.

cleary
08-16-2017, 11:07 AM
You missed my point Steve.

If in 2014, 2015, and 2016, the event broke even and collected 134, 135, and 133 entry fees for 128 slots, a projection for 2017 might be that 133 entry fees are collected. This is no different on the plus side than, say, Walmart assuming x% shoplifting on the down side.

I can promise you, he's doing much better than breaking even on these events. The casino gives me VERY good money just to hold the event and draw people in. He's got the best deal in pool... But that's not the point.

watchez
08-16-2017, 11:21 AM
Page's point wasn't if Zuglan breaks even or not. It was simply that he might "expect" those extra entry fees from players that had to forfeit, when estimating his profit/loss sheets.

My point is that he shouldn't have it factored into his bottom line that there is an expected # of people to back out, not give a refund and then profit off of the new entries paid. It would sit better with me if he did what other casino promoters do like Mark Griffin and charge $4 for a banana to pad the bottom line.

Or if he has this expansivie waiting list, charge a higher green fee (if he doesn't have one already). Charge $5 or $10 extra a person and he will get to his expected revenue he makes off of double charging for entries.

pt109
08-16-2017, 11:28 AM
Not sure how this is a 'rip-off'....you know going in that the entry is non refundable....
...was anybody being tortured to enter.

Non refundable eliminates a lotta bullshit stories.....and scalpers.

buckets
08-16-2017, 11:30 AM
I think the point of this topic is that people hate seeing other people making money.

cardiac kid
08-16-2017, 11:32 AM
My point is that he shouldn't have it factored into his bottom line that there is an expected # of people to back out, not give a refund and then profit off of the new entries paid. It would sit better with me if he did what other casino promoters do like Mark Griffin and charge $4 for a banana to pad the bottom line.

Or if he has this expansivie waiting list, charge a higher green fee (if he doesn't have one already). Charge $5 or $10 extra a person and he will get to his expected revenue he makes off of double charging for entries.

Well Steve, How do any of you non participants know MZ adds the cancelled entries to his bottom line? An early poster on this thread intimated that as a fact. That poster must have been MZ as he is the ONLY one who knows for sure.

Second, Mike's entry fee for the Turning Stone is $150 not $200. Only those players who do not support Mike's tour pay the $200 fee. Personally, I'd rather see Mike raise the non tour members entry fee to $400. Mike has 17 or so stops on the tour. We pay travel expences for each event instead of one or two. We get "cheated" not the one or two event players.

Suppose most of the negative posters on this thread would prefer Mike to close down the TS event rather than allow him to make money! This thread is just so sad!!!

Lyn

cleary
08-16-2017, 11:41 AM
I think the point of this topic is that people hate seeing other people making money.

Not at all. The point is, people have seeing others make money in shady ways.

If you don't think it's shady, then you're probably also a shady person.

cleary
08-16-2017, 11:42 AM
Well Steve, How do any of you non participants know MZ adds the cancelled entries to his bottom line? An early poster on this thread intimated that as a fact. That poster must have been MZ as he is the ONLY one who knows for sure.

Second, Mike's entry fee for the Turning Stone is $150 not $200. Only those players who do not support Mike's tour pay the $200 fee. Personally, I'd rather see Mike raise the non tour members entry fee to $400. Mike has 17 or so stops on the tour. We pay travel expences for each event instead of one or two. We get "cheated" not the one or two event players.

Suppose most of the negative posters on this thread would prefer Mike to close down the TS event rather than allow him to make money! This thread is just so sad!!!

Lyn

No problem with him making money, just make it in a non shady way. Shouldn't be tough. He's def making money thanks to the casino.

watchez
08-16-2017, 11:44 AM
Well Steve, How do any of you non participants know MZ adds the cancelled entries to his bottom line? An early poster on this thread intimated that as a fact. That poster must have been MZ as he is the ONLY one who knows for sure.

Second, Mike's entry fee for the Turning Stone is $150 not $200. Only those players who do not support Mike's tour pay the $200 fee. Personally, I'd rather see Mike raise the non tour members entry fee to $400. Mike has 17 or so stops on the tour. We pay travel expences for each event instead of one or two. We get "cheated" not the one or two event players.

Suppose most of the negative posters on this thread would prefer Mike to close down the TS event rather than allow him to make money! This thread is just so sad!!!

Lyn

You think a non tour member should pay almost 3 times a non tour member.
How do you become a tour member anyways?

I run a tour - not pool cause it isn't worth the effort - but i would never keep someone entry's fee. And I would never double dip the entry fees either. To be clear that would never come up, cause I think limited entrant events are dumb. I'm not lazy and can make any # of entries work. Been saying that for years that is one of the biggest mistakes pool makes. The list is long in what is wrong in pool but the bigger the better. Pool leagues get it, oh and they are the most successful thing in pool. Let's get the dead money in there and the top will grow as well. But again, I couldn't sleep at night putting any dead money from double entries into my own pocket.

Koop
08-16-2017, 11:50 AM
Do we know for certain what Mike does with the money or are we all making assumptions? Serious question. I honestly don't know and I am not sure anyone here does either.

hang-the-9
08-16-2017, 11:57 AM
No problem with him making money, just make it in a non shady way. Shouldn't be tough. He's def making money thanks to the casino.

Would it be OK if your "extra" non refunded entry go fully to the player prize fund? Say he keeps the non-refundable part but pledges that if you cancel then someone else takes your spot and pays their entry fee, your entry fee goes into the prize pot 100% with nothing taken out for him.

KAP1976
08-16-2017, 11:58 AM
Not at all. The point is, people have seeing others make money in shady ways.

If you don't think it's shady, then you're probably also a shady person.

Or I know how to read fine print. Every time I book a hotel or rental car with hotwire.com I'm well aware the room is non-refundable. I know the risks going in.

My mom once booked a room in Wildwood, NJ and had to cancel. They refunded half of the deposit. She didn't *****. She read the fine print going in.

Zuglan presents the policy and doesn't dodge. You have two options: pay it and play or walk. No one is pointing a gun at your head.

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 12:03 PM
Not at all. The point is, people have seeing others make money in shady ways.

If you don't think it's shady, then you're probably also a shady person.

I think you're nuts, if you think I'm shady because I don't think Zuglan is shady on this topic. ha ha.

Get over it.

cleary
08-16-2017, 12:07 PM
I think you're nuts, if you think I'm shady because I don't think Zuglan is shady on this topic. ha ha.

Get over it.

That's fine.

cleary
08-16-2017, 12:12 PM
Or I know how to read fine print. Every time I book a hotel or rental car with hotwire.com I'm well aware the room is non-refundable. I know the risks going in.

My mom once booked a room in Wildwood, NJ and had to cancel. They refunded half of the deposit. She didn't *****. She read the fine print going in.

Zuglan presents the policy and doesn't dodge. You have two options: pay it and play or walk. No one is pointing a gun at your head.

It's a totally different situation. A hotel, for the most part you can book the day before. Same with a rental car. You don't have to book these things 9 months before... That's the difference.

I recently booked a non refundable flight through delta. My connecting flight through American didn't get me to my destination so I changed courses. I called Delta and they gave me a credit (minus a transfer fee) for a ticket at a later date.

If this tournament at least made some sort of an effort for someone asking months before the tournament starts, you'd think he would work with them. If I find out my best friend is getting married that day and only gave me 7 months notice, but I booked this tournament 9 months ahead... It's absolutely shady he won't at least try to work with someone.

cleary
08-16-2017, 12:14 PM
Do we know for certain what Mike does with the money or are we all making assumptions? Serious question. I honestly don't know and I am not sure anyone here does either.

No clue. Don't really care either. If I paid my entry and couldn't get it back, you better give me a forfeit and not fill the spot. Getting paid twice is shady af.

poolscholar
08-16-2017, 12:21 PM
It's a totally different situation. A hotel, for the most part you can book the day before. Same with a rental car. You don't have to book these things 9 months before... That's the difference.

I recently booked a non refundable flight through delta. My connecting flight through American didn't get me to my destination so I changed courses. I called Delta and they gave me a credit (minus a transfer fee) for a ticket at a later date.

If this tournament at least made some sort of an effort for someone asking months before the tournament starts, you'd think he would work with them. If I find out my best friend is getting married that day and only gave me 7 months notice, but I booked this tournament 9 months ahead... It's absolutely shady he won't at least try to work with someone.

A lot of people see the world black and white, good luck arguing with everyone in this thread lol...

Not that my opinion is worth much but not refunding in reasonable circumstances is a terrible business practice.

Pushout
08-16-2017, 01:18 PM
Funny.....Mike's tour has been going how many years now and this is just now being discussed? Jesus, if you don't like it don't plan on playing, simple as that!

poolscholar
08-16-2017, 01:25 PM
Funny.....Mike's tour has been going how many years now and this is just now being discussed? Jesus, if you don't like it don't plan on playing, simple as that!

Case closed!

bradsh98
08-16-2017, 01:54 PM
It's a totally different situation. A hotel, for the most part you can book the day before. Same with a rental car. You don't have to book these things 9 months before... That's the difference.

I recently booked a non refundable flight through delta. My connecting flight through American didn't get me to my destination so I changed courses. I called Delta and they gave me a credit (minus a transfer fee) for a ticket at a later date.

If this tournament at least made some sort of an effort for someone asking months before the tournament starts, you'd think he would work with them. If I find out my best friend is getting married that day and only gave me 7 months notice, but I booked this tournament 9 months ahead... It's absolutely shady he won't at least try to work with someone.

I don't know where you get this "9 months" idea from... I don't recall any past Turning Stone event filling that early. Most generally, the event does not fill until a month or so before the event. Of course, there have been exceptions, but this is the norm.

I know that isn't the point that you are trying to make. The bigger issue is your suggestion that Mike is "double-dipping". In that regard, I somewhat agree with you, but only to a point.

If a player cannot make the event, I do feel that it is acceptable to offer that spot to a player that is on the waiting list. A full bracket is always better than having gaps, and it adds to the spectacle. However, there is concern over where the additional money goes..

Well, just like the no-refund policy, the payouts are also well known. The payouts do not change, regardless of the entry fees paid. So, where is the extra cash? Maybe Mike gives all of his volunteers a bonus.. Maybe he tips the casino staff.. Maybe he pockets it.. Does it really matter?

Would you feel better if he stood in the center of the floor and set fire to the additional money, just to show you that it isn't going in his pockets? Clearly, that is what you seem to be most concerned with.

Koop
08-16-2017, 02:59 PM
No clue. Don't really care either. If I paid my entry and couldn't get it back, you better give me a forfeit and not fill the spot. Getting paid twice is shady af.

Disagree. Especially if it's advertised ahead of time. If it were me and I knew going in then I would expect it.

BmoreMoney
08-16-2017, 03:11 PM
Has anyone here entered into a contract????

trifectasss
08-16-2017, 03:13 PM
I don't know where you get this "9 months" idea from... I don't recall any past Turning Stone event filling that early. Most generally, the event does not fill until a month or so before the event. Of course, there have been exceptions, but this is the norm.



Ahhh, so with a 200.00 or 150.00 entry fee, you normally have until a month or so away to decide to sign up. This makes all the difference. Any breaks like refunds would push that day closer to the tournament itself. It has been said that the casino make deals with tournament sponsors. I'm sure the hotel if not owned by the casino, makes deals with the casino and/or sponsors for lower prices with trade off being the almost 100 percent guarantee they will sell out that weekend. Within the current parameters, it's also been said that they are still filling a few replacement spots on the weekend of the tournament.

I think it can be reasonably assumed that the spots filled the weekend of the tournament are filled mostly by locals because who in their right mind is going to make travel plans to be a standby in tournament? So, any change to ease the refund policy encourages more cancellations and in turn, more locals playing the tournament. Casinos and hotels would prefer to have the tourist not the local. It is fact that tourists spend more money in those businesses. Not only that but if you have a cutoff point before refund is denied, there will be another big round of cancellations and reservations that would take place at that time. Maybe the hotels that give the discount do not want that hassle. Therefore, when the hotels and casinos make the deal with the sponsors, they do so expecting that built in parameters are in place with the sponsor that keeps those added expected profits and minimizes the hassles.

mikepage
08-16-2017, 03:18 PM
I can promise you, he's doing much better than breaking even on these events. The casino gives me VERY good money just to hold the event and draw people in. He's got the best deal in pool...[...]

Shhhh.... quiet please....

There are hundreds of casinos like Turning Stone...

If we are careful not to let this secret out, we can run dozens of these $25,000 added events a year and make a REAL killing...

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 03:32 PM
Here are some additional points, the first one was probably already made in this thread....

- One point brought up is that Zuglan is double dipping, because there is a line of guys waiting to take the spot. Have you considered if he had a yes refund policy, and 30 players dropped out instead of 5, maybe there won't be a line of standby's that long?

-Another sub-topic being brought up is that Zuglan does well in this event, because of the casino sponsorship. Therefore, he shouldn't need to double dip to make ends meet. This brings up a tangent of mine, but its worth discussing (imo :) )

One main problem I see with tournaments, is that each one is a separate entity, from a business standpoint. So we have people in this thread saying he makes out on this event, because of the casino. BUT, what about the other 20 stops he has every year? What if a few of them are money losers? Zuglan's tour, from a business perspective, should be considered an all event encompassing business. Not a separate business for each stop.

Now, take that a step further. Promoters often say they get the added money for bigger events from the gate. Or you will hear them say they lost money on the event. I think the issue here, is because each event is separate from a business standpoint, they have to each stand on their own financial merit. If something goes wrong, that's it, its done.

If there were ever a tour again, all the events would be tied together. Hopefully, they'd all be financial winners, but as long as there are more winners than losers, the entire tour as a business would be profitable.

watchez
08-16-2017, 03:37 PM
Shhhh.... quiet please....

There are hundreds of casinos like Turning Stone...

If we are careful not to let this secret out, we can run dozens of these $25,000 added events a year and make a REAL killing...

Like I said, I'm not involved in doing pool touirnaments cause of many reasons. But I'll be part of running a tournament in something outside of pool with a Vegas casino, casino adding $15k at least for only 64 players.

watchez
08-16-2017, 03:42 PM
Here are some additional points, the first one was probably already made in this thread....

- One point brought up is that Zuglan is double dipping, because there is a line of guys waiting to take the spot. Have you considered if he had a yes refund policy, and 30 players dropped out instead of 5, maybe there won't be a line of standby's that long?

-Another sub-topic being brought up is that Zuglan does well in this event, because of the casino sponsorship. Therefore, he shouldn't need to double dip to make ends meet. This brings up a tangent of mine, but its worth discussing (imo :) )

One main problem I see with tournaments, is that each one is a separate entity, from a business standpoint. So we have people in this thread saying he makes out on this event, because of the casino. BUT, what about the other 20 stops he has every year? What if a few of them are money losers? Zuglan's tour, from a business perspective, should be considered an all event encompassing business. Not a separate business for each stop.

Now, take that a step further. Promoters often say they get the added money for bigger events from the gate. Or you will hear them say they lost money on the event. I think the issue here, is because each event is separate from a business standpoint, they have to each stand on their own financial merit. If something goes wrong, that's it, its done.

If there were ever a tour again, all the events would be tied together. Hopefully, they'd all be financial winners, but as long as there are more winners than losers, the entire tour as a business would be profitable.

Let's talk about what does happen and not what could happen. We can save chicken little for another day.

What dose happen is he gets a handful of people to back out and then double dips the entry fees. If he startes to get 30 people backing out and can't fill the spots, then he needs to go to his exit plan to adjust his event. First starting with less added money if there is less overall interest as you describe. Who knows, that might come some day. He has already barred one top american and the top american won't even play in his event.

iusedtoberich
08-16-2017, 03:48 PM
Let's talk about what does happen and not what could happen. We can save chicken little for another day.

What dose happen is he gets a handful of people to back out and then double dips the entry fees. If he startes to get 30 people backing out and can't fill the spots, then he needs to go to his exit plan to adjust his event. First starting with less added money if there is less overall interest as you describe. Who knows, that might come some day. He has already barred one top american and the top american won't even play in his event.

None of us here know when he started his policy, and why, *exactly*. Maybe he already went through hell with the hustling players, and this was his solution. Maybe he found it fixed whatever problem he was having, so why mess with it?

So we know what "does happen" today. But we don't know what "did happen" for fact 20 years ago, or whenever he started this no-refund policy.

Cardigan Kid
08-16-2017, 03:56 PM
I can promise you, he's doing much better than breaking even on these events. The casino gives me VERY good money just to hold the event and draw people in. He's got the best deal in pool... But that's not the point.

First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.

watchez
08-16-2017, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=Cardigan Kid;5949582


It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

[/QUOTE]

So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

poolscholar
08-16-2017, 04:20 PM
It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

I'm no accountant but the more money he takes in the more money he makes from the event...doesn't matter the source

BmoreMoney
08-16-2017, 04:47 PM
So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

Imo, SO WHAT??? As I see it, like it or not, everyone knows the deal when they sign up A ND AGREE TO THE TERMS. Once again just imo; those in this thread that have problems with this policy, should only be concerned with themselves and THEIR money, not with what anyone else is doing with THEIR MONEY !

trifectasss
08-16-2017, 05:24 PM
So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

I didn't interpret it quite that way. I interpreted it as that Diamond sacrifices for this tournament and that he feels it's goodwill gesture to throw them the extra money taken in from the no-shows.

cleary
08-16-2017, 05:49 PM
Funny.....Mike's tour has been going how many years now and this is just now being discussed? Jesus, if you don't like it don't plan on playing, simple as that!

That was, in fact, the point of the thread.

Cardigan Kid
08-16-2017, 05:49 PM
I didn't interpret it quite that way. I interpreted it as that Diamond sacrifices for this tournament and that he feels it's goodwill gesture to throw them the extra money taken in from the no-shows.

Exactly the point. :thumbup:
I was starting to doubt my writing skills for a minute there. :sorry:

cardiac kid
08-16-2017, 06:01 PM
Just for those of you who do not READ the posts but merely scan them, please look at and read the poster for the Turning Stone XXVIII event. Anyone notice Diamond is NOT, not listed as a sponsor of the event. Diamond supplies the tables at a contracted cost to the event promoters. Please be sure to understand that point before bringing Diamond Billiards Products into this discussion.

Those of you who continuously complain about MZ's business practices, why don't you run an event of this size. There are dozens and dozens of Native American Casinos across America just chomping at the bit to give away $25,000 of their tribes money. Perhaps then you will get an idea of how difficult it is to do ONCE let alone twenty eight times. Also remember the first Turning Stone event was $50,000 added!

Lyn

cleary
08-16-2017, 06:08 PM
First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.

I appreciate that you think I'm a decent person and yes, I speak my mind and speak out when I see something... which is why I posted this. I feel what he's doing is wrong. I don't care if he tattoos the policy on his forehead, it's a bad business practice and he might not ever feel the hurt of having myself and others in his tournaments but I won't ever play because of it.

I'm sure there are things I don't know but I've also been told by a very reliable source what his deal with the casino is and how he profits from the turning stone. I have no problem with him profiting either so we're clear, I just don't think he should profit off of the folks who had to change their plans. Yes, I could call him up but what does that do? You really think he's gonna open up his books to a stranger? He shouldn't and he wouldn't. Hopefully he sees this and eventually rethinks his policy. Doubt it but he should.

He could very easily refund if he fills the spot, take 20% as a fee and be fine. He could also issue a credit for future tournament. I don't think any of that is unreasonable at all and a great way to show your appreciation for the people who support his events. Fact is, it's a small pool world and we should at least try to do what's right to build the game. But as long as he fills his field, I doubt he cares about any of that. Oh well, I know a few that won't be returning because of this and myself who just won't ever play. In a small pool world, eventually that catches up.

Dan_B
08-16-2017, 06:24 PM
First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.
This is a clear blue sky.

cardiac kid
08-16-2017, 06:32 PM
Fact is, it's a small pool world and we should at least try to do what's right to build the game. But as long as he fills his field, I doubt he cares about any of that. Oh well, I know a few that won't be returning because of this and myself who just won't ever play. In a small pool world, eventually that catches up.

Andrew,

Every Turning Stone event has been held on the dates listed. Every TS event has been full at 128. Every player who cashed in any of the events has been paid immediately. In the pool world of today, it's a miracle. You won't ever play in a TS event. I can understand that. You and your NYC friends can boycott all of Mike's events if you wish to. You are correct about one thing, Mike won't care about your complaints. He has way over 127 other potential players to worry about! Whether you agree or not, Turning Stone billiards events are some of the best run. EVER!

Lyn

cleary
08-16-2017, 08:50 PM
Andrew,

Every Turning Stone event has been held on the dates listed. Every TS event has been full at 128. Every player who cashed in any of the events has been paid immediately. In the pool world of today, it's a miracle. You won't ever play in a TS event. I can understand that. You and your NYC friends can boycott all of Mike's events if you wish to. You are correct about one thing, Mike won't care about your complaints. He has way over 127 other potential players to worry about! Whether you agree or not, Turning Stone billiards events are some of the best run. EVER!

Lyn

Exactly, he fills his field and that's all he cares about. If he can get lucky and have a dozen or so players drop out... bonus money, the shady way. Like I said, if that's not shady to you, your morals are questionable. Oh well, that's pool for ya.

cardiac kid
08-16-2017, 09:08 PM
Exactly, he fills his field and that's all he cares about. If he can get lucky and have a dozen or so players drop out... bonus money, the shady way. Like I said, if that's not shady to you, your morals are questionable. Oh well, that's pool for ya.

Excuse me Andrew, who are you to question my morals? Because YOU do not agree with someone elses business practices does not give you the moral high ground. You are just another mortal like me and thousands of other AZ posters. Mike Zuglan has done more for the game of pool than you will ever even dream about doing! The choice between you and Mike Zuglan? It's not even close! He's a doer and your a complainer.

Lyn

AtLarge
08-16-2017, 09:57 PM
... Also remember the first Turning Stone event was $50,000 added! ...

... Every TS event has been full at 128. ...

Lyn -- Memories can cloud quickly on this kind of stuff. Here's a little history (irrelevant to the points you've been making):

T.S. I (July, 2000) -- 32-player invitational, $20,400 added money. Immonen defeated Hernandez in the final.

T.S. II (May, 2001) -- 128 players, $50,000 added. Bustamante defeated Reyes in the final.

T.S. III (Aug., 2001) -- 32-player invitational, $20,400 added. Williams defeated Immonen in the final.

T.S. IV (Feb., 2005) -- 96 players, $15,000 added. Tavernier defeated McCreesh in the final.

T.S. V (Aug., 2005) through T.S. XXVII (Jan., 2017) -- 128 players, $25,000 added.

Justin Bergman
08-17-2017, 01:07 AM
There is a reason why a lot of players don't go to this tournament. I think it's a nice venue, it's on 9 ft & all that but there is just too many stupid rules especially racking. It don't fill up a month in advance. It's a points event so I tried to sign two months ago and he told me they have been full for months. No big deal that's great for him but it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot or maybe open up the field so it's more money for him, the players, and everyone. It is his tournament so he can do what he wants but just a suggestion. Keeping the players money is a joke if doesn't go back to prize fund. I know he would not refund Amar, Oscar or his Dad.

JAM
08-17-2017, 04:56 AM
I understand the opinions on both sides of the fence.

Here's my 2 cents, FWIW. Mike Zuglan runs a strong regional tour. Again, it's the longest-running regional tour in the United States. He wanted to create the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour because of the favoritism shown to other professional players at events he attended, as one example out of many.

Mike will not let anything influence how he runs his tour. If the players are upset with him because it's a Mosconi points event and they want to be seeded, his thoughts are that this points business should not enter into his realm of his tournament process. His goal is to have a fair tournament to all players, run by a strict set of rules, and truth be told, we who live in this area are very fortunate that the Turning Stone Casino continues to sponsor this tour at their beautiful facilities, along with several other sponsors.

Why should Mike change his rules to accommodate the WPA, BCA, Mosconi Cup points, et cetera? He shouldn't, and I like that about him.

Ever since Joe Tucker came out with that racking book -- (sorry, Joe :grin:) -- everybody has learned how to rig a rack and break a rigged rack or recognize a rigged rack. They look for the cracks in the rack. This is no secret among players. They know who the best rack riggers are, though there are a few players who when they rack their own will give themselves a slug rack (Sorry, Keith). :o

Mike Zuglan stands by his rules and won't budge for anything or anybody. I kind of like that about him. If the refund policy is stated beforehand, then it's buyer beware kind of thing. If you think there may be a chance you cannot attend the Joss Turning Stone event, then don't sign up. There's plenty of people who will take that place in line. This is one of the very, very few pool tournaments that does fill up ahead of time. It always has and always will. That is because everyone knows going in what to expect. There are no hidden surprises.

I will add that it is my opinion that Mike probably -- with an emphasis on "probably" -- does not really care what others think as it pertains to the rules or how he runs his tour. There is a strong pool contingency in the Northeast, and the Joss Tour has been a godsend to us pool aficionados who don't want to spend big bucks to go to Vegas or go out West or go to Texas or Louisiana. We like having the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour in our neck of the woods.

cleary
08-17-2017, 04:58 AM
Excuse me Andrew, who are you to question my morals? Because YOU do not agree with someone elses business practices does not give you the moral high ground. You are just another mortal like me and thousands of other AZ posters. Mike Zuglan has done more for the game of pool than you will ever even dream about doing! The choice between you and Mike Zuglan? It's not even close! He's a doer and your a complainer.

Lyn

If you support and defend shady business practices, I'll judge your morals all day. And I'll judge his no matter how many tournaments he's held as if that's supposed to put him on Mt Rushmore. As long as he keeps doing this, I'll speak out against it. I don't care what he's done or plans to do, wrong is wrong and I don't bite my tongue.

JAM
08-17-2017, 05:02 AM
If you support and defend shady business practices, I'll judge your morals all day. And I'll judge his no matter how many tournaments he's held as if that's supposed to put him on Mt Rushmore. As long as he keeps doing this, I'll speak out against it. I don't care what he's done or plans to do, wrong is wrong and I don't bite my tongue.

I respect that. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Just like I think the WPA and the BCA organization sucks a big weenie. They continue to flourish while professional pool dies a slow an ugly death here in the United States.

BeiberLvr
08-17-2017, 05:11 AM
I respect that. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Just like I think the WPA and the BCA organization sucks a big weenie. They continue to flourish while professional pool dies a slow an ugly death here in the United States.

Except in this case, it's not an opinion.

It's a fact.

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 05:12 AM
It's a points event so I tried to sign two months ago and he told me they have been full for months. No big deal that's great for him but it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot or maybe open up the field so it's more money for him, the players, and everyone.

You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.

cleary
08-17-2017, 05:13 AM
I will add that it is my opinion that Mike probably -- with an emphasis on "probably" -- does not really care what others think as it pertains to the rules or how he runs his tour. There is a strong pool contingency in the Northeast, and the Joss Tour has been a godsend to us pool aficionados who don't want to spend big bucks to go to Vegas or go out West or go to Texas or Louisiana. We like having the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour in our neck of the woods.

It's in my neck of the woods as well... but there's a lot of pool tours up here. Sorry, wrong is wrong. He doesn't have to care. Doesn't have to care about the players... clearly he doesn't. I understand a lot of people like him and clearly they're go to bat for him. And he may have done a lot of great things but this business practice (posted or not) is wrong.

JAM
08-17-2017, 05:13 AM
Except in this case, it's not an opinion.

It's a fact.

No, it is an opinion about a practice. Why are you always trying to pick scabs?

cleary
08-17-2017, 05:19 AM
You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.

He said they should open the field. Just read what he wrote... it's super easy.

And they should open the field. If you're going to have a tournament, get as many people as possible. More players equals more prize money equals more $50 "non your fees" (another shady af business practice).

Rimfirejunkie
08-17-2017, 05:32 AM
You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.



"Or open up the field"
Maybe you missed that?

BeiberLvr
08-17-2017, 05:41 AM
No, it is an opinion about a practice. Why are you always trying to pick scabs?

Not picking scabs. Just pointing out, as Cleary stated, wrong is wrong.


Nice avatar btw. Did Keith shrink? :p

buckets
08-17-2017, 05:42 AM
Not at all. The point is, people have seeing others make money in shady ways.

If you don't think it's shady, then you're probably also a shady person.

Honestly man, you just sound salty.

BeiberLvr
08-17-2017, 05:42 AM
You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.

Not sure how you came up with your response after reading Bergman's post.

No where does he state players should be kicked out so he can enter.

MOJOE
08-17-2017, 05:45 AM
Do you know this policy about no refunds when you sign up? If it's clear, I don't see the issue. If the no refund is not stated, I'd agree that you have a legitimate gripe. Just one outsider view. YMMV

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 05:55 AM
He said they should open the field. Just read what he wrote... it's super easy.

"Or open up the field"
Maybe you missed that?

Not sure how you came up with your response after reading Bergman's post.

No where does he state players should be kicked out so he can enter.

You guys need to go back and reread what he wrote because you obviously missed it the first time. He said " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot." Obviously the only way to give him a spot when the field is already full is to remove someone else. What he is asking for here is clear.

He did have a separate, alternate request and suggestion, which was "or maybe open up the field". I don't have any problem with this alternate suggestion which is why I didn't address it. I do however see a problem with his expectation and thinking it is ok that someone should be kicked out of the event so he that can have their spot, or even to be put ahead of anyone on the waiting list, and so I responded to that part of what he said.

cleary
08-17-2017, 05:56 AM
Honestly man, you just sound salty.

I don't care what you think.

cleary
08-17-2017, 06:00 AM
Do you know this policy about no refunds when you sign up? If it's clear, I don't see the issue. If the no refund is not stated, I'd agree that you have a legitimate gripe. Just one outsider view. YMMV

It's not about the no refund. That's not the point. If he doesn't want to refund the money, fine. But don't resell that spot and get twice the money for one spot. That's the point. If you don't want to have byes, then refund money if you fill that spot. One or the other. At the very least offer a credit to play in the future... but just collecting two entries for one is just shady.

Being transparent about a shady business practice doesn't make it ok.

JAM
08-17-2017, 06:02 AM
Not picking scabs. Just pointing out, as Cleary stated, wrong is wrong.


Nice avatar btw. Did Keith shrink? :p

It is an opinion. It's not wrong if you believe it is right. Whether it is wrong or right is an opinion. It is a practice that is not liked by some, and that's okay.

cardiac kid
08-17-2017, 06:11 AM
It's in my neck of the woods as well... but there's a lot of pool tours up here. Sorry, wrong is wrong. He doesn't have to care. Doesn't have to care about the players... clearly he doesn't. I understand a lot of people like him and clearly they're go to bat for him. And he may have done a lot of great things but this business practice (posted or not) is wrong.

Wonder what you do or did for a living? Never, ever in your past did you ever take advantage of a situation to further your needs and wants? NEVER? During my 38 years in the consumer electronics business times came up when I had to decide between my store and a customer. Sometimes I chose the store. Does that make me a crooked businessman?

Seen your name attached to a tournament series in NYC / NJ as a winner in the "C" bracket. Did you go to Tony Robles or whom ever the TD was and ask to be raised to a "B" because of your win? Did you still play the next event as a "C"? If you did, your a "shady" character using your logic train. Think about it.

Lyn

Rimfirejunkie
08-17-2017, 06:16 AM
You guys need to go back and reread what he wrote because you obviously missed it the first time. He said " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot." Obviously the only way to give him a spot when the field is already full is to remove someone else. What he is asking for here is clear.

He did have a separate, alternate request and suggestion, which was "or maybe open up the field". I don't have any problem with this alternate suggestion which is why I didn't address it. I do however see a problem with his expectation and thinking it is ok that someone should be kicked out of the event so he that can have their spot, or even to be put ahead of anyone on the waiting list, and so I responded to that part of what he said.


I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

cleary
08-17-2017, 06:19 AM
Wonder what you do or did for a living? Never, ever in your past did you ever take advantage of a situation to further your needs and wants? NEVER? During my 38 years in the consumer electronics business times came up when I had to decide between my store and a customer. Sometimes I chose the store. Does that make me a crooked businessman?

Seen your name attached to a tournament series in NYC / NJ as a winner in the "C" bracket. Did you go to Tony Robles or whom ever the TD was and ask to be raised to a "B" because of your win? Did you still play the next event as a "C"? If you did, your a "shady" character using your logic train. Think about it.

Lyn

This is beyond idiotic. All of it. It's almost impressive actually.

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 06:30 AM
Plenty of other people have already said it, but I see no problem with anything that two people voluntarily agree to if both parties honored their end of the deal and nobody was misled.

It's like if you bought a cue, got exactly what you were expecting to get get and agreed to get, for the price you agreed to pay, and then complained saying "I can't believe he charged me a thousand bucks for this cue, that's too much, I feel so wronged, blah blah blah". If you were forced to buy the cue and it was not a voluntary transaction on your part, then you just might have a legitimate gripe. If you were misled about the cue and got something other than what you agreed to, then you certainly have a gripe. But when you got exactly what you expected and what you voluntarily contracted for then there is no gripe.

If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

cardiac kid
08-17-2017, 06:30 AM
I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

Turning Stone has been a Mosconi points earning event for several years. JB and every other pro player knows this is the case from January 1st to the date when the team is chosen. If you know this is the case, enter early and adjust your schedule accordingly. Might have to give up a gravy event to earn points. His choice.

I'm an amateur who plays primarily league type pool. Fly to Vegas many times over the winter to qualify to play with my BCAPL, ACS and VNEA teams for nationals. My reservations are now complete through March 2018. Why can't a pro, whose potential income is involved, do the same? Have no pity for JB or other pros who are left out.

Lyn

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 06:35 AM
There is a reason why a lot of players don't go to this tournament. I think it's a nice venue, it's on 9 ft & all that but there is just too many stupid rules especially racking. It don't fill up a month in advance. It's a points event so I tried to sign two months ago and he told me they have been full for months. No big deal that's great for him but it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot or maybe open up the field so it's more money for him, the players, and everyone. It is his tournament so he can do what he wants but just a suggestion. Keeping the players money is a joke if doesn't go back to prize fund. I know he would not refund Amar, Oscar or his Dad.

Justin, you contacted Mike 16 days ago on August 1st to try to get in a tournament that usually fills up early.

Here was Mike's response to you....

"
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:57 PM Mike Zuglan wrote:
Justin, sorry but I am full. I wish you would have contacted me sooner. The hotel is sold out of rooms for that Saturday and possibly Friday by now. They only allow us so many rooms at our $119 rate (they can get over $300 for those days) and even those are sold out. It is a very busy place and this is why I can't wait too long. Give me a phone number and I will put you on the waiting list and call you if something opens up. Mike Zuglan"



Again, there are major parts missing or half truths missing from many statements on this thread and no one with a complaint wants to contact Mike directly. This is the nature of the sport I suppose.

cardiac kid
08-17-2017, 06:35 AM
This is beyond idiotic. All of it. It's almost impressive actually.

Andrew,

It is not idiotic. You are calling out an individual who has the respect of the entire pool community because YOUR value system is at odds with his on ONE of his business practices. On the scale of justice, Andrew Cleary or Mike Zuglan, which way will the scale tilt?

Lyn

decent dennis
08-17-2017, 06:36 AM
You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.

Where are the words "kicked out"?

Sweatin'
08-17-2017, 06:43 AM
If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

Careful here, be real careful.

You're injecting common sense into an otherwise emotional situation. That'll get you nowhere.

cleary
08-17-2017, 06:43 AM
Plenty of other people have already said it, but I see no problem with anything that two people voluntarily agree to if both parties honored their end of the deal and nobody was misled.

It's like if you bought a cue, got exactly what you were expecting to get get and agreed to get, for the price you agreed to pay, and then complained saying "I can't believe he charged me a thousand bucks for this cue, that's too much, I feel so wronged, blah blah blah". If you were forced to buy the cue and it was not a voluntary transaction on your part, then you just might have a legitimate gripe. If you were misled about the cue and got something other than what you agreed to, then you certainly have a gripe. But when you got exactly what you expected and what you voluntarily contracted for then there is no gripe.

If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

The agreement between the two parties isn't the issue, it's the business practice that happens when one of the parties says "I can't make it" and the the other party resells that spot. That's the shady part. In your example of the cue... if I don't like the cue, I still get to keep it. It doesn't disappear and end up back for the cuemaker to resell and make double.

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 06:43 AM
I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

If that is what he thought, the clear implication is the expectation of being put before the people on the waiting list, otherwise there would not have been a reason to mention it since there was nothing that prevented him from being put on the waiting list behind the people that were already on it, and my post already addressed the scenario of his being put ahead of people on the waiting list. I don't see where you disagree with any of my post unless you think it would be ok for Mike to put him in the event ahead of anybody that was already in it or that was already on the waiting list.

JAM
08-17-2017, 06:45 AM
Justin, you contacted Mike 16 days ago on August 1st to try to get in a tournament that usually fills up early.

Here was Mike's response to you....

"
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:57 PM Mike Zuglan wrote:
Justin, sorry but I am full. I wish you would have contacted me sooner. The hotel is sold out of rooms for that Saturday and possibly Friday by now. They only allow us so many rooms at our $119 rate (they can get over $300 for those days) and even those are sold out. It is a very busy place and this is why I can't wait too long. Give me a phone number and I will put you on the waiting list and call you if something opens up. Mike Zuglan"



Again, there are major parts missing or half truths missing from many statements on this thread and no one with a complaint wants to contact Mike directly. This is the nature of the sport I suppose.

How did you get this info? I'm not disputing it, but I was wondering if you are part of the Joss Tour staff. :)

iusedtoberich
08-17-2017, 06:48 AM
No one every goes right to the source, because they are tire kickers. Only serious people pick up the phone and call the source, which is even better than email/text. The rest of us, whine and moan on here and FB:)

When you want something done, you call the person.

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 06:48 AM
Exactly, he fills his field and that's all he cares about. If he can get lucky and have a dozen or so players drop out... bonus money, the shady way. Like I said, if that's not shady to you, your morals are questionable. Oh well, that's pool for ya.

Andrew, shady is your opinion unless the business practice is being done behind the scenes, then it would be a fact.
There has been over 27 turning stone tournaments for a decade and a half now. This policy has been in place for very long time. Every player is made aware of the rule.

So it falls into the business practices of utility companies charging a fee for missed payments, or credit card companies increasing a rate on overdue bills, or even ticketmaster charging a fee for buying a ticket to a concert.

Disagreeable? Yes, it's everyone's right to disagree.
But shady? No, it's the business's right and the buyer/player is aware of the rules beforehand therefore it's out in the open and not in the shade in the very least.

cleary
08-17-2017, 06:50 AM
Turning Stone has been a Mosconi points earning event for several years. JB and every other pro player knows this is the case from January 1st to the date when the team is chosen. If you know this is the case, enter early and adjust your schedule accordingly.

And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 06:59 AM
How did you get this info? I'm not disputing it, but I was wondering if you are part of the Joss Tour staff. :)

Very simple, Mike's email is on the site.
I just like to get both sides to stories before I make determinations on events/people.
Also, for obvious reasons, many pool players/insiders do not come on AZ forums and I really like this forum and I what it brings to the pool world. So everyone should get a fair shake when threads like this emerge.

That's why I wrote to Mike to get his side of the story. I thought it was odd because I didn't think the tourney was full 2 months ago when Justin claimed to have contacted Mike. Justin is a great player and I like to watch him play so to have him up here wouldve been a treat. It's unfortunate that he didn't get in earlier.

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 07:05 AM
And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?

Yes, very unfortunate, but they both benefited greatly from this tournament in the past decade and surely should see the benefits of losing the $400 for keeping order. (I'm assuming they got spots in this tourney in the past because those spots were open due to players not cavalier signing up because they know they'd lose money of something came up).

Darren has his serious reasons too for missing the tournament (which I won't make public out of respect for him), and he didn't expect a refund, I'm assuming because he knows the wisdom of this policy while holding a 128 player tournament in a casino.

garczar
08-17-2017, 07:07 AM
And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?WTH, what if his whole family were players? WAAAH. Get over it. The policy is there to see and has been for some time. How long are you willing to beat this horse? I agree that there's nothing shady going on in the least.

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 07:08 AM
The agreement between the two parties isn't the issue, it's the business practice that happens when one of the parties says "I can't make it" and the the other party resells that spot. That's the shady part. In your example of the cue... if I don't like the cue, I still get to keep it. It doesn't disappear and end up back for the cuemaker to resell and make double.

It's not shady if you were made aware of it, were not misled in any way, and you voluntarily agreed to it. You have no complaint when you get exactly what you agreed to get.

Although it is immaterial, Mike just so happens to have a number of good reasons for this policy which were already laid out in the thread. I know you don't agree that they are good reasons, but they are. But again, it doesn't matter because if you voluntarily agree to it, and you get what you agreed to, then there is no legitimate complaint because you got exactly what you agreed to get.

Now if your agreement was specifically "I agree that I won't get a refund only if you don't replace me on the bracket with someone else", or if your agreement was "I agree that I won't get a refund only if you spend my forfeited $200 in a certain way", and then he doesn't honor that, then you have a legitimate gripe because he didn't honor part of your agreement. You don't get to have a say in things after the fact outside of what you contracted for though. If there were no agreed stipulations as to what he would have to do with the now empty spot on the bracket, or with what he would have to do with the forfeited entry money, then it isn't any of your business what he chooses to do regarding those things as it was never a part of the agreement or even the discussion. If they were important, then you should have included them in your agreement with him but since you didn't you have no right to now expect things that were never part of the deal.

cleary
08-17-2017, 07:10 AM
WTH, what if his whole family were players? WAAAH. Get over it. The policy is there to see and has been for some time. How long are you willing to beat this horse? I agree that there's nothing shady going on in the least.

Because you're probably equally shady. That's fine, it's a common thing around here.

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 07:10 AM
No one every goes right to the source, because they are tire kickers. Only serious people pick up the phone and call the source, which is even better than email/text. The rest of us, whine and moan on here and FB:)

When you want something done, you call the person.

Spot on.

And Mike will give you his phone number if you email him, because he also likes to handle stuff in person.

cleary
08-17-2017, 07:11 AM
Spot on.

And Mike will give you his phone number if you email him, because he also likes to handle stuff in person.

And I'm sure Mike will give any stranger every private detail over the phone... obviously.

garczar
08-17-2017, 07:14 AM
Because you're probably equally shady. That's fine, it's a common thing around here.I'm not just shady, i'm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJO5HU_7_1w

cleary
08-17-2017, 07:18 AM
It's not shady if you were made aware of it, were not misled in any way, and you voluntarily agreed to it. You have no complaint when you get exactly what you agreed to get.

Although it is immaterial, Mike just so happens to have a number of good reasons for this policy which were already laid out in the thread. I know you don't agree that they are good reasons, but they are. But again, it doesn't matter because if you voluntarily agree to it, and you get what you agreed to, then there is no legitimate complaint because you got exactly what you agreed to get.

Being transparent about shady business ethics doesn't make them more ethical. And reselling the spot you've already sold and keeping the money is a dirty way of doing business. You can tattoo it on your forehead, and put up a million signs, it's still a bad business practice that should be known to the public.

And I agree, if you don't like it, don't play. That's EXACTLY what the original post states as to why I would never play.

cleary
08-17-2017, 07:20 AM
How long are you willing to beat this horse?

Hi, I'm Andrew. Nice to meet you.

Moet.1977
08-17-2017, 07:32 AM
It all comes down to reading what you sign. If u put ur signature on a contract then that's that. No sense in gripping about it late if u can't make. You no what u signed besides business is business and Mike has provided the people with a great tournament for years.

He also gives away a free stream. Do some of you people think he should put in all this work and not benefit from it. Geez. What if 5 people drop out and Mike pockets a 1000 dollars, he deserves it for putting up with crap just like this.

It all goes back to you no what u signed.

garczar
08-17-2017, 07:38 AM
Hi, I'm Andrew. Nice to meet you.Apparently til the end-of-time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUvxRjYqjEQ

cleary
08-17-2017, 07:51 AM
You no what u signed besides business is business and Mike has provided the people with a great tournament for years.

Do u always no what u signed?

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 07:52 AM
Being transparent about shady business ethics doesn't make them more ethical.
Actually it does. If you are completely transparent, not misleading anyone, and any transactions are completely voluntary on all sides, then it isn't shady or unethical. That doesn't mean you will like or agree with every term of the deals they offer, but it does mean that it isn't shady. Complete openness and honesty with people that are under no pressure, obligation, or coercion whatsoever to do business with you is never shady and is in fact the complete and exact opposite of shady.

You can tattoo it on your forehead, and put up a million signs, it's still a bad business practice that should be known to the public.
If it is tattooed on your forehead, or on a million signs, or otherwise made completely public, then there is no reason to need to make it known to the public because, you guessed it, it was already completely public. If you are honest with yourself, your point wasn't to make public what is already completely public since Mike already goes out of his way to make it completely public to everyone. Your point was just to give your opinion about something everybody was already aware of, or at least would be if they made themselves aware of the terms of tournament like they have a responsibility to do before signing up. Your opinion has been duly noted by everyone.

And I agree, if you don't like it, don't play. That's EXACTLY what the original post states as to why I would never play.
Your point was simply to give your opinion about disliking his policy. Nothing more, nothing less. You did that. Keep it honest though. His policy isn't hidden or shady, it's just a highly publicized policy that you don't happen to like.

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 07:54 AM
Do u always no what u signed?

I you don't that's your problem. Always.

garczar
08-17-2017, 07:56 AM
Do u always no what u signed?Don't ever buy a used car. Those guys live for people like you.

skip100
08-17-2017, 08:07 AM
I guess you'll never buy a ticket on Delta, United, American, or practically any other airline then because they resell unused seats to other customers.

This thread has turned a bit creepy stalker-ish.

WoodyMPW
08-17-2017, 08:10 AM
Troll so hard.

skip100
08-17-2017, 08:12 AM
Troll so hard.
I wonder when the shoe will drop and he says, never mind, just kidding, like the curve bank thread with Bob and Dr. Dave.

In the meantime Mike Z has been slammed on the forum and in a deleted post someone threatened him with violence (putting billiard balls in a sock and slamming him in the head).

garczar
08-17-2017, 08:13 AM
Actually it does. If you are completely transparent, not misleading anyone, and any transactions are completely voluntary on all sides, then it isn't shady or unethical. That doesn't mean you will like or agree with every term of the deals they offer, but it does mean that it isn't shady. Complete openness and honesty with people that are under no pressure, obligation, or coercion whatsoever to do business with you is never shady and is in fact the complete and exact opposite of shady.


If it is tattooed on your forehead, or on a million signs, or otherwise made completely public, then there is no reason to need to make it known to the public because, you guessed it, it was already completely public. If you are honest with yourself, your point wasn't to make public what is already completely public since Mike already goes out of his way to make it completely public to everyone. Your point was just to give your opinion about something everybody was already aware of, or at least would be if they made themselves aware of the terms of tournament like they have a responsibility to do before signing up. Your opinion has been duly noted by everyone.


Your point was simply to give your opinion about disliking his policy. Nothing more, nothing less. You did that. Keep it honest though. His policy isn't hidden or shady, it's just a highly publicized policy that you don't happen to like.Well said. Couldn't be more clear if you tried.

cleary
08-17-2017, 08:53 AM
I guess you'll never buy a ticket on Delta, United, American, or practically any other airline then because they resell unused seats to other customers.

This thread has turned a bit creepy stalker-ish.

I fly Delta all the time. A few weeks ago I needed to travel from Albany to Buffalo. There were no direct flights so I had to route through DC... and my connecting flight in DC to Buffalo got cancelled. So, I had to stay in DC for the night. I had already booked a flight from Buffalo to Austin, TX for the next evening (which I wasn't going to get to) or even make it to Buffalo at all because of timing. So, I flew straight from DC to Austin. Long story short, the flight I had already booked from Buffalo to Austin, I wasn't going to make. It was also non refundable.

Once I returned home, I called Delta and explained what happened. They gave me a credit for the non refundable flight. Didn't have to argue, didn't have to beg. Just told them what happened and like any business that wants the customers to be happy, issued me a credit. They also offered to pay for the hotel if I filled out some paperwork, which I never did. It was nice of them though.

cleary
08-17-2017, 08:58 AM
His policy isn't hidden or shady, it's just a highly publicized policy that you don't happen to like.

It's not hidden from the players who sign up, though probably not generally known to the average pool fan or viewer of his tournament stream. I'm sure more people know about it now than before. It is however shady. You don't have to agree.. I don't care. Morals differ from person to person. I guess I have higher standards.

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 08:59 AM
I fly Delta all the time. A few weeks ago I needed to travel from Albany to Buffalo. There were no direct flights so I had to route through DC... and my connecting flight in DC to Buffalo got cancelled. So, I had to stay in DC for the night. I had already booked a flight from Buffalo to Austin, TX for the next evening (which I wasn't going to get to) or even make it to Buffalo at all because of timing. So, I flew straight from DC to Austin. Long story short, the flight I had already booked from Buffalo to Austin, I wasn't going to make. It was also non refundable.

Once I returned home, I called Delta and explained what happened. They gave me a credit for the non refundable flight. Didn't have to argue, didn't have to beg. Just told them what happened and like any business that wants the customers to be happy, issued me a credit. They also offered to pay for the hotel if I filled out some paperwork, which I never did. It was nice of them though.

The difference is that most states have a law requiring compensation to the consumer when they are unable to fulfill the contract.

Ticketmaster would do the same for those Justin Bieber tickets you bought, if the Biebs cancels that show you've been waiting for.

If you don't see the difference, you are mentally challenged.

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 09:00 AM
It's not hidden from the players who sign up, though probably not generally known to the average pool fan or viewer of his tournament stream. I'm sure more people know about it now than before. It is however shady. You don't have to agree.. I don't care. Morals differ from person to person. I guess I have higher standards.

You think you are on a high-horse, but you are riding a jackass.

KissedOut
08-17-2017, 09:43 AM
Because you're probably equally shady. That's fine, it's a common thing around here.

C'mon, this is pool we are talking about. Shady is taken for granted. If you do nice work you can adopt unconscionable business practices and if you are called on it a legion of defenders will arise. Just read one of the many threads about noted cue makers screwing over customers and all the excuse-makers they bring out.

cleary
08-17-2017, 09:54 AM
The difference is that most states have a law requiring compensation to the consumer when they are unable to fulfill the contract.

Ticketmaster would do the same for those Justin Bieber tickets you bought, if the Biebs cancels that show you've been waiting for.

If you don't see the difference, you are mentally challenged.

The flight from Buffalo to Austin was purchased at a different time and I still could have flown there the next morning, it just didn't work timing wise for me. So instead, I paid for a different flight straight to Austin from DC. So, it wasn't them not fulfilling the contract. They could have got me there, just later than I needed. They just do things to make the customer happy, maybe because they see I fly their airline very often.

In your example of Justin Beiber... if I bought tickets and didn't show up, they know I didn't cross the gate and then sold my seats to someone else... that would be an unethical business practice. I wouldn't expect a refund, if there was a no refund policy. I would however expect them to not double dip and get paid twice.

I'm not mentally challenged, I just seem to have higher moral and ethical standards than most on this forum. Again, it's the pool world so the bar is low.

watchez
08-17-2017, 10:02 AM
Wonder what you do or did for a living? Never, ever in your past did you ever take advantage of a situation to further your needs and wants? NEVER?

Lyn

Finally Lyn you admit that Zuglan is taking advantage of the situation.

Now we are getting somewhere.

And I understand that most likely Zuglan is your friend, but it is ok to tell your friend they are wrong.

cardiac kid
08-17-2017, 10:04 AM
C'mon, this is pool we are talking about. Shady is taken for granted. If you do nice work you can adopt unconscionable business practices and if you are called on it a legion of defenders will arise. Just read one of the many threads about noted cue makers screwing over customers and all the excuse-makers they bring out.

kissed,

I'm sure right now Mike Zuglan is shaking in his boots over Cleary's accusations. Notice Andrew never played at TS? Yet he feels he has the right to question MZ's business plan. Wonder how many of the posters who joined Cleary ever played at TS. I have. Many times. One trip will convince you of the benefits of Mike's rigid rules package. Fair to all.

Years ago when Mike used a separate tournament director, I was scheduled to play Busti in North Providence, RI. When the match was called, Busti was no where to be found. Well over an hour later, he came back from dinner. Never said anything to anyone. He just left. Sat and waited for the match because the TD refused to forfeit him. Today, he would be gone. Mike would never allow that to happen. He is as straight arrow as they get. All the more power to him.

Lyn

garczar
08-17-2017, 10:09 AM
The flight from Buffalo to Austin was purchased at a different time and I still could have flown there the next morning, it just didn't work timing wise for me. So instead, I paid for a different flight straight to Austin from DC. So, it wasn't them not fulfilling the contract. They could have got me there, just later than I needed. They just do things to make the customer happy, maybe because they see I fly their airline very often.

In your example of Justin Beiber... if I bought tickets and didn't show up, they know I didn't cross the gate and then sold my seats to someone else... that would be an unethical business practice. I wouldn't expect a refund, if there was a no refund policy. I would however expect them to not double dip and get paid twice.

I'm not mentally challenged, I just seem to have higher moral and ethical standards than most on this forum. Again, it's the pool world so the bar is low.I don't have a clue what you do for a living but does your job involve contracts in any way? Did you ask/check before sending your entry-fee what the refund(or lack thereof) policy was? Or did you just assume that a refund would be issued in case you couldn't attend? If you did ask then you knew going in their policy and if not, making such an assumption was kinda foolish.

JAM
08-17-2017, 10:14 AM
Look, I don't like that stupid, idiotic, frigging, assine, ignorant rule in double elimination that the guy who remains on the winner's side never gets to lose. Instead, they play one extended race at the end. That sucks. It really is not fair.

But guess what? When I go to a tournament that has that rule, I have to accept it because I know going in that that's what the rule is.

It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.

If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.

Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.

Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here. :)

skip100
08-17-2017, 10:15 AM
Never mind

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 10:22 AM
The flight from Buffalo to Austin was purchased at a different time and I still could have flown there the next morning, it just didn't work timing wise for me. So instead, I paid for a different flight straight to Austin from DC. So, it wasn't them not fulfilling the contract. They could have got me there, just later than I needed. They just do things to make the customer happy, maybe because they see I fly their airline very often.

In your example of Justin Beiber... if I bought tickets and didn't show up, they know I didn't cross the gate and then sold my seats to someone else... that would be an unethical business practice. I wouldn't expect a refund, if there was a no refund policy. I would however expect them to not double dip and get paid twice.

I'm not mentally challenged, I just seem to have higher moral and ethical standards than most on this forum. Again, it's the pool world so the bar is low.

Delta did not get you where you needed to be by the time you needed to be there. They did not get you there when they said they would. They broke the contract and cost you money. They did not do it just to be nice or because of how you looked in your tiny basketball jersey.

watchez
08-17-2017, 10:23 AM
I guess you'll never buy a ticket on Delta, United, American, or practically any other airline then because they resell unused seats to other customers.

This thread has turned a bit creepy stalker-ish.

I fly Southwest --- you can cancel 10 minutes before the flight and get a credit for a future flight, to be used in a year. I don't think SW could fill that seat within 10 minutes of taking off.

If I canceled a week before, I get my refund (credit) and they fill the seat most likely. But they aren't double dipping the seat.

garczar
08-17-2017, 10:23 AM
Look, I don't like that stupid, idiotic, frigging, assine, ignorant rule in double elimination that the guy who remains on the winner's side never gets to lose. Instead, they play one extended race at the end. That sucks. It really is not fair.

But guess what? When I go to a tournament that has that rule, I have to accept it because I know going in that that's what the rule is.

It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.

If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.

Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.

Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here. :)Based on this logic he should have NEVER entered in the first place. I agree with you 100% that he has a right not to like the rule. But to go ahead and send in an entry and then get po'd because of the no refund policy is nuts.

cardiac kid
08-17-2017, 10:23 AM
Finally Lyn you admit that Zuglan is taking advantage of the situation.

Now we are getting somewhere.

And I understand that most likely Zuglan is your friend, but it is ok to tell your friend they are wrong.

Steve,

If you asked Mike directly, I'm absolutely sure he would say I'm NOT his friend. Actually he does not like me. We have had many disagreements in the past. Despite that situation, I've played in way over 100 Joss Northeast events including many TS events. Never won one. I've already planned to attend more this fall. The $40 membership fee is more than reasonable. We also have a tour event at my home room East Ridge Billiards in Rochester, NY on the schedule for February 2018. Personalities aside, Mike does too much for pool. As is normal, there are people who would tear down anything that is not ABSOLUTELY in line with their thinking! As I've stated before, find someone with $25,000 willing to back you and then run your own event the way you want before complaining about Mike! Sorry Steve, that was not directed at you personally. Just a general statement about those who complain about how someone else is running something not to their liking.

Lyn

bradsh98
08-17-2017, 10:29 AM
It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.

If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.

Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.

Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here. :)

That is fine for Cleary to disagree with the rule, and to make his opinion known.

What is not fine, is for him to insist that he has 'higher moral and ethical standards' than everyone who disagrees with him. That is the problem that we have in America today... When a person or a group does not agree with an opinion, it's because they are 'stupid', or 'uneducated', 'ignorant', or have no morals..

Disagreeing with the opinion of others does not make you better than them. Insulting a person's moral and ethical standards is not acceptable.

Accept that you hold a different opinion, and move on. No insults necessary.

cleary
08-17-2017, 10:35 AM
Notice Andrew never played at TS? Yet he feels he has the right to question MZ's business plan. Wonder how many of the posters who joined Cleary ever played at TS. I have. Many times. One trip will convince you of the benefits of Mike's rigid rules package. Fair to all.

I wonder how many don't say something because they want to continue playing in the tournaments (need points). Maybe he's kinda got them by the balls?

watchez
08-17-2017, 10:39 AM
Steve,

If you asked Mike directly, I'm absolutely sure he would say I'm NOT his friend. Actually he does not like me. We have had many disagreements in the past. Despite that situation, I've played in way over 100 Joss Northeast events including many TS events. Never won one. I've already planned to attend more this fall. The $40 membership fee is more than reasonable. We also have a tour event at my home room East Ridge Billiards in Rochester, NY on the schedule for February 2018. Personalities aside, Mike does too much for pool. As is normal, there are people who would tear down anything that is not ABSOLUTELY in line with their thinking! As I've stated before, find someone with $25,000 willing to back you and then run your own event the way you want before complaining about Mike! Sorry Steve, that was not directed at you personally. Just a general statement about those who complain about how someone else is running something not to their liking.

Lyn


Lyn - when the BCAPL was at the Riviera for years, I would ask Mark Griffin why the hell do you run the tourney in this place withthe worst customer serfvice in America. He would always reply, there is no where else in Vegas that will host us. Then low and behold, he moved out of the Riviera and went to the Rio. The APA went to Westgate.

My point is that things can get done. Do i have the time or desire to organize a pool tourney? No. Could I do it? Yes. I have had casinos approach me for the tour (outside of pool) that I run. I passed on them because I make money off of game play and if there is a casino, I know my game play will be down cause people woudl be spending a large % of their time at the tables. I would have to take some of the added money the casino gave me and put it in my pocket and not put it in the prize pool to make up for itl. I'm just not comfortable with that so I haven't pursued it further. Just like I don't take 10% out of the player auction at my events. Sure people do it, people know they are doing it, but it doesn't make it right.

cleary
08-17-2017, 10:39 AM
I don't have a clue what you do for a living but does your job involve contracts in any way? Did you ask/check before sending your entry-fee what the refund(or lack thereof) policy was? Or did you just assume that a refund would be issued in case you couldn't attend? If you did ask then you knew going in their policy and if not, making such an assumption was kinda foolish.

I work on television and deal with contracts all the time. I've very familiar with how business works and how contracts work. I also know that sometimes you may not like the terms of a deal but you need to do the deal anyway, for different reasons.

You also clearly didn't read what I've posted because I've never played in this even, tried to play in this event or even given them my money. However, I know many who have and who have ended up needing to back out for various reasons. I know you're not understand this... and you probably never will but I'll try one more time... IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ISSUE A REFUND (THAT'S FINE), DON'T RESELL THEIR SPOT. Reselling the spot is the shady part of this... If you want a full field and want to resell their spot, give them a refund or credit. One or the other.

cleary
08-17-2017, 10:42 AM
Delta did not get you where you needed to be by the time you needed to be there. They did not get you there when they said they would. They broke the contract and cost you money. They did not do it just to be nice or because of how you looked in your tiny basketball jersey.

False. If anything, I cost them money. But you're not going to get that.

cleary
08-17-2017, 10:45 AM
Just like I don't take 10% out of the player auction at my events. Sure people do it, people know they are doing it, but it doesn't make it right.

Exactly. You can be transparent all you want about being shady, it's still shady. Pool players just don't seem to get that because it seems it's all they know.

Get_A_Grip
08-17-2017, 10:49 AM
After reading this whole thread, I can really see both sides. But in the end, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. The best thing to me would be to have no refunds after a certain published date before the tournament begins. I have no problems with filling the newly available spots with someone on the waiting list to ensure a full chart.

If part of the business plan is to count on a certain number of people dropping out each year so that added income can be generated, I think that it's not really a wise thing to do, but if the tournament keeps filling up each year, then I would say that the majority of people really don't care that much about it one way or the other.

garczar
08-17-2017, 10:57 AM
Exactly. You can be transparent all you want about being shady, it's still shady. Pool players just don't seem to get that because it seems it's all they know.Transparently shady??? Is that like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"? Have you ever put a deposit down on an apt. or house? You know going in you're NOT getting it back and the landlord/realtor can use it to buy say, crack if they so choose. I don't like this policy but i was aware of it and still make the deposit. If i renege on the deal, on what planet should i deserve a refund? How is this pool tournament entry any different?

ChicagoRJ
08-17-2017, 11:00 AM
It matters not to most, but it matters to some. If I sold something to someone for $200 but he forgot to pick it up in a timely matter, and then calls me 5 weeks later for the product. Sorry, my policy is any unclaimed merchandise is forfeited in 30 days.

Yet, I would be able to not refund him anything and I still get to re-sell the product and pocket twice the money. Its policy and he can't complain too much. I still wouldn't sleep well doing it, but hey, that's just me. I can't fathom running any business in that manner, unless somehow, it was such a huge hardship.

The example would be the product may only have cost $200 but it took up 2 rooms of space that I could not store other items. But, if it were a cue, chalk or something that could just sit there, no harm, not much foul.

But, diff strokes for diff folks. Whad'ya gonna do?

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 11:20 AM
False. If anything, I cost them money. But you're not going to get that.

So...You believe that you cost Delta money, but when you got home from your trip you called them and 'explained' the situation. Why? Was it perhaps because you felt like you had not been given the services promised?

Then, why did you accept their compensation? That is thievery. Unless you had every stockholders permission to get that compensation, you and the employee who gave that stole from the business owners.

Yeah, you have the moral high ground.

mikepage
08-17-2017, 11:26 AM
[....] I have no problems with filling the newly available spots with someone on the waiting list to ensure a full chart.[...].

Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.

garczar
08-17-2017, 11:39 AM
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.Bingo!! "He shoots, he scores!!!!".

Pushout
08-17-2017, 11:40 AM
I work on television and deal with contracts all the time. I've very familiar with how business works and how contracts work. I also know that sometimes you may not like the terms of a deal but you need to do the deal anyway, for different reasons.

You also clearly didn't read what I've posted because I've never played in this even, tried to play in this event or even given them my money. However, I know many who have and who have ended up needing to back out for various reasons. I know you're not understand this... and you probably never will but I'll try one more time... IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ISSUE A REFUND (THAT'S FINE), DON'T RESELL THEIR SPOT. Reselling the spot is the shady part of this... If you want a full field and want to resell their spot, give them a refund or credit. One or the other.

Of the people you know who had to back out, how many still play in the event and how many do not and do they not play because they did not get a refund when they backed out?

watchez
08-17-2017, 11:48 AM
If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.

Mike: Your example is a failure as it is apples and oranges -- For Turning Stone, you are paying the entry fee that goes into the PRIZE POOL. You aren't paying for the right to enter/entertainment value of the event such as a whale watching cruise. If a tournament is profiting off the player, that would handled with a green fee. So again, if MZ wanted to keep that fee for himself on a refund situation, so be it. But your entry goes into the prize pool, the tournament director is simply faciliating the prize pool for the players by collecing the money. It doesn't (well it shouldn't but for TS is wrongfully does) go into the pocket of the tournament director to do what ever he feels like with it at his discretion.

pt109
08-17-2017, 11:50 AM
Got some more 'shady' organizations for the OP to expose.....

The World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association does not refund entry fees.

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 11:54 AM
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.

Post of the thread. Well done.

On a side note, you have experience with tournaments. I saw earlier some people suggested just expand the field of their are more than 128 players who want to play.

I never liked seeing opening rounds with fifty byes/empty slots when there are expanding field sizes. A full field set number of players is good for everyone, players and spectators.

That being said, you have experience with tournaments, can you verify that a field expansion cannot happen when you have a fixed four day schedule on a fixed number of tables? At turning stone, every other hour is a new round of play as the tournament progresses.

the next larger size of field, would bring more rounds and more days would be needed. Is this correct?

Poolplaya9
08-17-2017, 11:57 AM
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.

Another fantastic explanation using good logic. The problem is that many people just refuse to use logic and would rather go with how something "feels" to them on the surface rather than choosing to look at something through the lens of logic and reason. In the world you have logical people and "feel" people, and the "feel" people are never going to properly understand this issue or multitudes of other things. Choosing to go by how something "feels" on the surface rather than choosing to use good logic and reason will always leave them ignorant and misinformed in those cases. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

watchez
08-17-2017, 12:00 PM
Post of the thread. Well done.

On a side note, you have experience with tournaments. I saw earlier some people suggested just expand the field of their are more than 128 players who want to play.

I never liked seeing opening rounds with fifty byes/empty slots when there are expanding field sizes. A full field set number of players is good for everyone, players and spectators.

That being said, you have experience with tournaments, can you verify that a field expansion cannot happen when you have a fixed four day schedule on a fixed number of tables? At turning stone, every other hour is a new round of play as the tournament progresses.

the next larger size of field, would bring more rounds and more days would be needed. Is this correct?

Or you can state -- fielf of 128, the race is to 11 (ore whatever it is), with a field of over 128 races will be to 11 on the winners side and 9 on the losers side, over 192 players, races to 9 on both sides. There are ways to work around it to get more people involved.

Cardigan Kid
08-17-2017, 12:12 PM
Or you can state -- fielf of 128, the race is to 11 (ore whatever it is), with a field of over 128 races will be to 11 on the winners side and 9 on the losers side, over 192 players, races to 9 on both sides. There are ways to work around it to get more people involved.

But wouldn't that anger a whole new set of players (like the ones that lose 10-9 on losers side but would've had a chance if it was all race to 11, etc)?

So to appease one side, you anger another, or create a whole new set of complaints. You would definitely know more than I.

It's the same with racking rules, break rules, etc.

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 12:18 PM
Another fantastic explanation using good logic. The problem is that many people just refuse to use logic and would rather go with how something "feels" to them on the surface rather than choosing to look at something through the lens of logic and reason. In the world you have logical people and "feel" people, and the "feel" people are never going to properly understand this issue or multitudes of other things. Choosing to go by how something "feels" on the surface rather than choosing to use good logic and reason will always leave them ignorant and misinformed in those cases. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

But he isn't arguing the main issue of the entry fee being non-transferable and non-refundable, which I think is a horrible business practice, but do not find it unethical or shade tree.

mikepage
08-17-2017, 12:34 PM
Mike: Your example is a failure as it is apples and oranges -- For Turning Stone, you are paying the entry fee that goes into the PRIZE POOL. [...].

There you go marking dollars again. Of the two dollar bills in your wallet, which one is for rent and which one is for diapers? Would you be all bent out of shape if somebody switched them on you when you weren't looking?

There are many sources of income and many expenses. The prize pool is one expense. It is

added$$ + (number of players who play) times N.

cleary
08-17-2017, 01:45 PM
Transparently shady??? Is that like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"? Have you ever put a deposit down on an apt. or house? You know going in you're NOT getting it back and the landlord/realtor can use it to buy say, crack if they so choose. I don't like this policy but i was aware of it and still make the deposit. If i renege on the deal, on what planet should i deserve a refund? How is this pool tournament entry any different?

Yes, I've put a deposit on both an apt (when I rented) and a house. When I quit renting to buy a house, the landlord gave me back the month and a half security deposit from 5 years prior. So... no idea what you're talking about.

And the deposit or "down payment" I put on my house is just that, a percentage of the house. One day when I sell my house, I'll get my money (hopefully more) back.

You do live on earth, correct?

cleary
08-17-2017, 01:51 PM
So...You believe that you cost Delta money, but when you got home from your trip you called them and 'explained' the situation. Why? Was it perhaps because you felt like you had not been given the services promised?

Then, why did you accept their compensation? That is thievery. Unless you had every stockholders permission to get that compensation, you and the employee who gave that stole from the business owners.

Yeah, you have the moral high ground.

lol Jesus you're amazing

They had an empty seat for that flight. They could have refunded me and resold the seat or given me a credit and resold the seat. That's why they could have lost money.

I called them to see if there was something they could do, and there was. Because they're a good company.

It's not that I didn't accept their compensation for the hotel, it's that I didn't want to fill out paperwork.

Yes, I'm a moral person. You can slice me up all you want but it's clear you're not on my level morally.

cleary
08-17-2017, 02:02 PM
If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.

Any business worth it's weight in dog turds would refund that ticket or offer a credit for the future. Period.

garczar
08-17-2017, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=cleary;5950289]Yes, I've put a deposit on both an apt (when I rented) and a house. When I quit renting to buy a house, the landlord gave me back the month and a half security deposit from 5 years prior. So... no idea what you're talking about.

And the deposit or "down payment" I put on my house is just that, a percentage of the house. One day when I sell my house, I'll get my money (hopefully more) back.

You do live on earth, correct?[/QUOT My bad here. I was referring to holding deposits not security deposits. You find an apt. or house and give a HD to get it off open market. You change your mind its history. Now before you go all "high moral ground" on me i understand even HD's can be returned in extreme circum. but its pretty rare.

mikepage
08-17-2017, 02:25 PM
Any business worth it's weight in dog turds would refund that ticket or offer a credit for the future. Period.

This one, Tripadvisor's #1 out of 26 tours in Gloucester, MA
five-stars on trip advisor
five stars on facebook
has a no refund policy. No credit for the future either.

https://www.7seaswhalewatch.com/

skip100
08-17-2017, 02:40 PM
This one, Tripadvisor's #1 out of 26 tours in Gloucester, MA
five-stars on trip advisor
five stars on facebook
has a no refund policy. No credit for the future either.

https://www.7seaswhalewatch.com/
It sure is fun to moralize against them though.

garczar
08-17-2017, 03:20 PM
I've got a few questions on this whole deal: Is there one entry-form for all JOSS NE events or does each stop have its own form? Are the rules and policies pertaining to fees, payments, refunds, etc. listed on the form(s)? Are most entries done over the phone/online with a credit-card? I have zero problems with MZ's policy but was just wondering if its clearly stated in print or on their website. Site is currently down so i can't check.

mikepage
08-17-2017, 03:26 PM
[...] it's clear you're not on my level morally.

Look, Cleary, you are a recreational-level player who does not fit with the vast majority of the field at the Turning Stone event, a major event that usually has a few international superstars, a bunch of national-class players, and many top regional players.

You have never entered it, before or now, have never entered the smaller tour events, and I see no evidence you enter other open events in your area.

Yet you somehow have bewildered friends baffled by your sitting this one out, and that is your springboard to start a major public dissing with "rip off" in the title and phrases like "super shady."

Then it seems anyone here who DOES go to the event or the smaller stops and DOES live in the area the tour serves seems to support the character of the organizer, whether they agree with every decision or not.

And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.

And when anybody challenges your "super shady" judgment, you label THEM super shady.

I think President Trump would label you a grandstander

In any case many might agree with your quote above.

easy-e
08-17-2017, 03:36 PM
Look, Cleary, you are a recreational-level player who does not fit with the vast majority of the field at the Turning Stone event, a major event that usually has a few international superstars, a bunch of national-class players, and many top regional players.

You have never entered it, before or now, have never entered the smaller tour events, and I see no evidence you enter other open events in your area.

Yet you somehow have bewildered friends baffled by your sitting this one out, and that is your springboard to start a major public dissing with "rip off" in the title and phrases like "super shady."

Then it seems anyone here who DOES go to the event or the smaller stops and DOES live in the area the tour serves seems to support the character of the organizer, whether they agree with every decision or not.

And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.

And when anybody challenges your "super shady" judgment, you label THEM super shady.

I think President Trump would label you a grandstander

In any case many might agree with your quote above.

You just said the "T" word. Now this thread will get interesting!!!!:thumbup:

Moet.1977
08-17-2017, 03:37 PM
Well said Mike love that u put the definition at bottom of.post for him.LOL

garczar
08-17-2017, 03:42 PM
You just said the "T" word. Now this thread will get interesting!!!!:thumbup:WTF does DT have to do with this thread? Talk about pouring gas on a bonfire.

cleary
08-17-2017, 03:43 PM
Look, Cleary, you are a recreational-level player who does not fit with the vast majority of the field at the Turning Stone event, a major event that usually has a few international superstars, a bunch of national-class players, and many top regional players.

You have never entered it, before or now, have never entered the smaller tour events, and I see no evidence you enter other open events in your area.

Yet you somehow have bewildered friends baffled by your sitting this one out, and that is your springboard to start a major public dissing with "rip off" in the title and phrases like "super shady."

Then it seems anyone here who DOES go to the event or the smaller stops and DOES live in the area the tour serves seems to support the character of the organizer, whether they agree with every decision or not.

And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.

And when anybody challenges your "super shady" judgment, you label THEM super shady.

I think President Trump would label you a grandstander

In any case many might agree with your quote above.

I know many people around my speed or worse that play in this event all the time. I'm also friends with many top players from all over who ask, because I live somewhat close. Some of them don't care about the policy. Others do. Some have backed out (for very good reasons). Yes, I cannot win. My first post was very clear.. I stated two reasons I would never play. One of them was because I can't win. The same could be said for all but one person who's posted in this thread. I've played in other events I cannot win too... because it was fun though. Maybe you don't know me as well as you think?

The bar for ethics in pool is just low I guess. I expect better of myself and others. I guess that's just not the case with pool. Just saying, my Fargo rating isn't much but my ethics rating is on par with my credit.

cleary
08-17-2017, 03:45 PM
Well said Mike love that u put the definition at bottom of.post for him.LOL

I didn't see in the definition the part about standing up for what's right and against what's wrong...

Maybe Mike is just spreading fake news lol

watchez
08-17-2017, 03:54 PM
There you go marking dollars again. Of the two dollar bills in your wallet, which one is for rent and which one is for diapers? Would you be all bent out of shape if somebody switched them on you when you weren't looking?

There are many sources of income and many expenses. The prize pool is one expense. It is

added$$ + (number of players who play) times N.

I am not marking dollars -- what you fail to understand is the job of a tournament director. One of their many tasks is to collect entry fees that make up the prize pool. It is not his right to pocket any of those entry fees for his own personal gain. If he wants to list a green fee/administration fee or whatever other name say Mark Griffin or anyone else comes up with, then so be it. THose fees are his money and as a player you are agreeing that those fees won't be going into the prize pool. Beyond that, if a TD takes money out of the prize pool for himself - guess what, it is stealing. He simply has no rights to it.

I've seen plenty of tours take part of the entry fee for themselves and until they were outted, they kept doing it. It wasn't til someone added up the payouts and figured out there was a lot of missing money. Once outted, you will see these tours or tournament properly advertise $60 entry fee, $15 green fee. But again, the entire $60 is not and never the tournament's money to do with as they desire.

The prize pool is not an expense. To state that is utterly ridiculious and one of the reasons pool is in the state it is in.

watchez
08-17-2017, 03:59 PM
And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.


The tour has been going on for 20 years and has a whopping 23 reviews. LMAO not really a point you want to make to justify it's grandeur :scratchhead:

(note - My tour has been in existence 6 1/2 years and has 74 reviews - 73 of them 5 star, 1 of them 3 star) :wave3:

garczar
08-17-2017, 04:39 PM
Lyn - when the BCAPL was at the Riviera for years, I would ask Mark Griffin why the hell do you run the tourney in this place withthe worst customer serfvice in America. He would always reply, there is no where else in Vegas that will host us. Then low and behold, he moved out of the Riviera and went to the Rio. The APA went to Westgate.

My point is that things can get done. Do i have the time or desire to organize a pool tourney? No. Could I do it? Yes. I have had casinos approach me for the tour (outside of pool) that I run. I passed on them because I make money off of game play and if there is a casino, I know my game play will be down cause people woudl be spending a large % of their time at the tables. I would have to take some of the added money the casino gave me and put it in my pocket and not put it in the prize pool to make up for itl. I'm just not comfortable with that so I haven't pursued it further. Just like I don't take 10% out of the player auction at my events. Sure people do it, people know they are doing it, but it doesn't make it right.What tour are you referring to? You say its outside of pool. Cards? What?

mikepage
08-17-2017, 04:46 PM
What tour are you referring to? You say its outside of pool. Cards? What?

He does video golf

garczar
08-17-2017, 04:54 PM
He does video golfThere's a tour for that? Golden Tee? Didn't know that existed. Cool game.

BmoreMoney
08-17-2017, 05:00 PM
Yes, I've put a deposit on both an apt (when I rented) and a house. When I quit renting to buy a house, the landlord gave me back the month and a half security deposit from 5 years prior. So... no idea what you're talking about.

And the deposit or "down payment" I put on my house is just that, a percentage of the house. One day when I sell my house, I'll get my money (hopefully more) back.

You do live on earth, correct?

Cleary, you're a little off. IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY A GONNA buy a house you will give them " earnest money " . That is a deposit, and it means you intend to buy the property. IF FOR ANY REASON YOU DO NOT BUY, then that " earnest money is gone. Don you know hownthisnworks, have you been thru this? Doesn't matter if you 3rd cuz is having a baby while your mom is being sicken up into a spaceship while your dad Is growing a third arm . Doesn't matter. You enter into a contract and you give money as required and that is it. Period. Can't see how anyone can't understand this, nor how anyone can't accept this. This is simple grown up stuff , period.

BmoreMoney
08-17-2017, 05:06 PM
What tour are you referring to? You say its outside of pool. Cards? What?

I personally call BS! I say no decision makers ever offered that. Not that I know everybody, I do know " enough decision makers " to find out if that ever happened and once again I call BS!

Mickey Qualls
08-17-2017, 05:15 PM
Look, Cleary, you are a recreational-level player who does not fit with the vast majority of the field at the Turning Stone event, a major event that usually has a few international superstars, a bunch of national-class players, and many top regional players.

You have never entered it, before or now, have never entered the smaller tour events, and I see no evidence you enter other open events in your area.

Yet you somehow have bewildered friends baffled by your sitting this one out, and that is your springboard to start a major public dissing with "rip off" in the title and phrases like "super shady."

Then it seems anyone here who DOES go to the event or the smaller stops and DOES live in the area the tour serves seems to support the character of the organizer, whether they agree with every decision or not.

And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.

And when anybody challenges your "super shady" judgment, you label THEM super shady.

I think President Trump would label you a grandstander

In any case many might agree with your quote above.

http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/trump-wrong-gif-11.gif

The bold means absolutely nothing.

I've never played in a Joss event. While I've been to a few (including one event at Turning Stone), it's something I'm looking forward to entering down the road when my schedule permits me to do so. And I want to test my mettle against the higher echelon players in a tournament setting.

Eventually I'll sign up and give MZ my $150 or $200, or whatever the amount is (I'll call it $150 for the remainder of my post), to save my seat, with the understanding that, if I have to back out (the reason is irrelevant), then I forfeit my entry fee.

I get that, and when I hand over my money, I agree to those terms. I have no business expecting that my entry fee comes back to me if I do have to back out.

Where I would question is where that money goes. I've got no problem accepting the 'no refund' terms, I agreed to them when I handed over my money. On the same note, I would also expect that money to go toward the tournament itself, and not for any sort of administrative costs and/or overhead.

On that same note, why does that X amount of money (my $150) go to 'the Diamond people' or whoever else has been mentioned in this thread ? Any sort of costs (or donations by Diamond and others) are already factored in. Meaning that, in this case, Diamond has no expectation of getting compensation of any form.

Maybe a more direct question, why doesn't that forfeited money go back to the players and/or prize fund ?

watchez
08-17-2017, 05:18 PM
There's a tour for that? Golden Tee? Didn't know that existed. Cool game.

www.PEGTtour.com

We have over $5k added an event. $12k+ added free roll at the end of each year and average about 80 contestants played in each event, about 100 average total show up for the weekend to participate in some aspect. Guys hug each other when they lose. In pool they won't even shake hands half the time. There is no b.s. In over 40 events I have done with some extremely drunk guys, knock on wood, not one fight. And the host locations make more money in one event than all the locations combined make during MZ tour a year (not counting the casino events).

BmoreMoney
08-17-2017, 05:24 PM
Another fantastic explanation using good logic. The problem is that many people just refuse to use logic and would rather go with how something "feels" to them on the surface rather than choosing to look at something through the lens of logic and reason. In the world you have logical people and "feel" people, and the "feel" people are never going to properly understand this issue or multitudes of other things. Choosing to go by how something "feels" on the surface rather than choosing to use good logic and reason will always leave them ignorant and misinformed in those cases. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Can't believe your cop ass can't just say " an agreement , a contract, is binding and that is that".

garczar
08-17-2017, 05:29 PM
www.PEGTtour.com

We have over $5k added an event. $12k+ added free roll at the end of each year and average about 80 contestants played in each event, about 100 average total show up for the weekend to participate in some aspect. Guys hug each other when they lose. In pool they won't even shake hands half the time. There is no b.s. In over 40 events I have done with some extremely drunk guys, knock on wood, not one fight. And the host locations make more money in one event than all the locations combined make during MZ tour a year (not counting the casino events).Sounds good but be careful you don't break an arm patting yourself on the back. Just kiddin'. Sounds like a good tour.

garczar
08-17-2017, 05:48 PM
I've got a few questions on this whole deal: Is there one entry-form for all JOSS NE events or does each stop have its own form? Are the rules and policies pertaining to fees, payments, refunds, etc. listed on the form(s)? Are most entries done over the phone/online with a credit-card? I have zero problems with MZ's policy but was just wondering if its clearly stated in print or on their website. Site is currently down so i can't check.I messaged MZ on FB and he replied pretty quickly. He said EVERY person entering is told of the no refund/no transfer policy. I have no reason not to take him at his word. Clearly there is no "shadiness" taking place. Don't like it, don't enter.

one stroke
08-17-2017, 06:10 PM
I messaged MZ on FB and he replied pretty quickly. He said EVERY person entering is told of the no refund/no transfer policy. I have no reason not to take him at his word. Clearly there is no "shadiness" taking place. Don't like it, don't enter.

Ya that's true still doesn't explain where that money goes when he lets another player in on the vacant spot ,, He runs a good a good show with a iron fist as he see's fit because he has no competition he can power trip as he sees fit and make no mistake about it he's a power tripper Iv heard it for yrs


1

Pushout
08-17-2017, 06:12 PM
Of the people you know who had to back out, how many still play in the event and how many do not and do they not play because they did not get a refund when they backed out?

Can you respond to this or do you not know the answer?

garczar
08-17-2017, 06:23 PM
Ya that's true still doesn't explain where that money goes when he lets another player in on the vacant spot ,, He runs a good a good show with a iron fist as he see's fit because he has no competition he can power trip as he sees fit and make no mistake about it he's a power tripper Iv heard it for yrs


1Don't play. Its that easy. Tour's been going since '97 and next season is all lined-up. Must be doing something right. Look, MZ was a player long before he started this tour. He knows exactly who he's dealing with: pool players. The czar-like iron fist is in many ways the best way to run it. Look at tours that have failed in the past. Players can't agree on anything.

iusedtoberich
08-17-2017, 07:34 PM
Ya that's true still doesn't explain where that money goes when he lets another player in on the vacant spot ,, He runs a good a good show with a iron fist as he see's fit because he has no competition he can power trip as he sees fit and make no mistake about it he's a power tripper Iv heard it for yrs


1

There was plenty of competition for the Joss tour in the Philly/NY/NJ area (I don't know about further North). In the late 90's it was the Tim Scruggs tour. In the early 2000's, it was the NE Players tour (where the tournament director stole all of the year end championship event money). Then (and still current) it was the Mezz Tour run by Burgos.

The Joss tour definitly brought the superstar players. The other tours, only brought the local and some regional players.

iusedtoberich
08-17-2017, 07:47 PM
www.PEGTtour.com

We have over $5k added an event. $12k+ added free roll at the end of each year and average about 80 contestants played in each event, about 100 average total show up for the weekend to participate in some aspect. Guys hug each other when they lose. In pool they won't even shake hands half the time. There is no b.s. In over 40 events I have done with some extremely drunk guys, knock on wood, not one fight. And the host locations make more money in one event than all the locations combined make during MZ tour a year (not counting the casino events).

Careful here, they are completely different games. 1000's of people tried to run a pool tournament. How many of them are still going? 5? Were they all idiots? Is Zuglan an idiot? I'd wager if you took all of your skills acquired from the golf tournament, and applied it to a pool tournament/tour, you'd probably shoot yourself after one season after all of the crybabies finally got to you.

How much do you make per event?
How much do you get in sponsorship?
Why did you change my rating?
Why do you make more than the player who won, for sitting at a table all the event, and simply calling out names?
Why do you advertise money added, if you charge a greens fee? Don't they cancel each other out?
Why are you withholding 1/3 of my winnings if I'm an international player?
This cheater I'm playing keeps giving me slug racks. Forfeit him.
This other cheater I'm playing keeps giving himself perfect racks, and the wing ball is wired. Forfeit him.

That's the type of crap you will deal with every event. Good luck transferring your video golf skills over to the pool player. ha ha

Nuts4Tascarellas
08-17-2017, 08:26 PM
My buddy just got banned because of something he said on this thread. He was saying something about someone should beat Zugland's ass with an object... so, then he gets a message saying that he is banned for suggesting an act of violence on a tournament director. My question is what makes the tournament director's well being any more important than any other kind of thief??? I have seen countless posts about people that have shipped warped cues, broken cues, etc. Many members chime in and suggest paying the guy a visit - and by the way, here's his address... I have started one of those posts myself when I got a cue with no shaft. My question is - what makes the tournament director so special? Be careful what you say on here - you could be next... I wish I could get me some of that tournament director diplomatic immunity!

BeiberLvr
08-17-2017, 08:30 PM
My buddy just got banned because of something he said on this thread. He was saying something about someone should beat Zugland's ass with an object... so, then he gets a message saying that he is banned for suggesting an act of violence on a tournament director. My question is what makes the tournament director's well being any more important than any other kind of thief??? I have seen countless posts about people that have shipped warped cues, broken cues, etc. Many members chime in and suggest paying the guy a visit - and by the way, here's his address... I have started one of those posts myself when I got a cue with no shaft. My question is - what makes the tournament director so special? Be careful what you say on here - you could be next... I wish I could get me some of that tournament director diplomatic immunity!

You do realize that an act of physical violence is much more different (and worse) than stealing. Don't you?

Nuts4Tascarellas
08-17-2017, 08:41 PM
Well - no one got beaten... and I guess that's a matter of opinion. I would rather come home with a Black eye than have someone steal 2 grand from me. The sarcastic part of me wanted to respond with - all sins are equal in God's eyes...

iusedtoberich
08-17-2017, 08:43 PM
My buddy just got banned because of something he said on this thread. He was saying something about someone should beat Zugland's ass with an object... so, then he gets a message saying that he is banned for suggesting an act of violence on a tournament director. My question is what makes the tournament director's well being any more important than any other kind of thief??? I have seen countless posts about people that have shipped warped cues, broken cues, etc. Many members chime in and suggest paying the guy a visit - and by the way, here's his address... I have started one of those posts myself when I got a cue with no shaft. My question is - what makes the tournament director so special? Be careful what you say on here - you could be next... I wish I could get me some of that tournament director diplomatic immunity!

-First, Zuglan is not a thief.
-Second, if a member threatens specific violence, and it is reported, they should get banned.
-Third, it must get reported for a mod to see it.
-Fourth, if a legit thief does someting like ship a box of rocks in place of a cue, and the members here make threats to beat his ass and give his address, no one is going to report that to the mods. And even if they do, I doubt the mods would ban the person who threatened in that case.
-Circle back to #1, Zuglan is not a thief.

pt109
08-17-2017, 08:59 PM
I wonder when the shoe will drop and he says, never mind, just kidding, like the curve bank thread with Bob and Dr. Dave.

In the meantime Mike Z has been slammed on the forum and in a deleted post someone threatened him with violence (putting billiard balls in a sock and slamming him in the head).

My buddy just got banned because of something he said on this thread. He was saying something about someone should beat Zugland's ass with an object... so, then he gets a message saying that he is banned for suggesting an act of violence on a tournament director. My question is what makes the tournament director's well being any more important than any other kind of thief??? I have seen countless posts about people that have shipped warped cues, broken cues, etc. Many members chime in and suggest paying the guy a visit - and by the way, here's his address... I have started one of those posts myself when I got a cue with no shaft. My question is - what makes the tournament director so special? Be careful what you say on here - you could be next... I wish I could get me some of that tournament director diplomatic immunity!

Are you kidding me?
You think you're going to muster some sympathy for a guy who suggested hitting somebody
with a sockful of billiard balls?
Maybe you should google "completely out of line"

Ky Boy
08-17-2017, 09:24 PM
Read it ALL.

Had lots of laughs.

SMHALOT.

Some people...geez. :crying:

I see both sides.

Ultimately, has nothing to do with morals. It's an implied contract. You pay, you play.

No refunds and no transfers.

If ya don't like the policy, kick your can on down the road.

NEXT

JoeyA
08-17-2017, 11:27 PM
Cleary doesn't like the rules that Mike Zuglan has put into effect for Turning Stone.

Cleary whines nonstop about his "morals" being superior to most everyone in pool.

Practically everyone in the pool world thinks Mike Zuglan is one of the best tournament directors and promoters around and the event is sold out each and every year, making lots of people happy.....but.......

Cleary accuses Mike Zuglan of doing "shady business".

Cleary has never played in this event, has no interest in playing in this event, YET, he starts a thread suggesting that Turning Stone is "rip off" but when in fact, by the vast majority of the people in the pool world say it is one of the most popular, most well-run and successful tournaments of the decade.

Cleary's morals are beyond reproach, SAID NO ONE EVER, especially after this thread and his whiney rebukes from just about everyone who posts in this thread.

Cleary is simply a hater of the Turning Stone event and Mike Zuglan but has no interest in it, except to run it and Mike Zuglan down. That's disgusting.

So Cleary thinks that it is perfectly okay to make disparaging remarks and suggest that Mike Zuglan is doing "shady business" when everyone knows how everything is handled. That's a fine set of morals you got there Cleary. Lol

JoeyA

Nick B
08-18-2017, 01:19 AM
I know many people around my speed or worse that play in this event all the time. I'm also friends with many top players from all over who ask, because I live somewhat close. Some of them don't care about the policy. Others do. Some have backed out (for very good reasons). Yes, I cannot win. My first post was very clear.. I stated two reasons I would never play. One of them was because I can't win. The same could be said for all but one person who's posted in this thread. I've played in other events I cannot win too... because it was fun though. Maybe you don't know me as well as you think?

The bar for ethics in pool is just low I guess. I expect better of myself and others. I guess that's just not the case with pool. Just saying, my Fargo rating isn't much but my ethics rating is on par with my credit.

Cleary,
Not to be a "word-nazi" but Ethics simply put is the way you conduct yourself when nobody is watching. Mike is very up front with his policy. I'm afraid you are on the wrong side of this one. When I go to McDonalds and ask for no ketchup on my burger I don't get a discount....but wait that ketchup can just go on the next burger. Maybe but life isn't like that. In short you are complaining about a good man who by all accounts runs a great event. It's kind of like a super successful restaurant that doesn't take reservations. I may never get to go...but the owner is so busy he doesn't care.