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View Full Version : my conversation with a team mate regarding playing league for money


lorider
08-15-2017, 08:18 PM
Last Sunday was the last night of this apa session. One of my players comes up and tells me he is quitting the team. This was his first session in apa and he is a pretty good 5/4. I ask why he is quitting. Below is how our conversation went.

Him...there is no money in sp and I am joining a money league.

Me...several people around here play both. Money league is on Mondays and Tuesdays and would not interfere with you playing on Sundays.

Him..well at less you get your money back in money league and the apa operator just sticks it all in his pocket and gives nothing back.

Me.... I played that money league for 2 years and if you are lucky enough to get on a good team you can get your fees back but its only the top 4 teams that do that . The next tier gets most of theirs back and the rest are in the hole. As for apa you do get an opportunity to win a trip to either Vegas or Hawaii.

Him... Yea , 2 teams outa 38. Like I said , the rest goes in his pocket.

Me...i dont know where you got your info from but its a lot more than 2 teams. He sends 2- 8 ball teams...2-9 ball teams...2 scotch doubles teams ..1 ladies team..1 masters team to Vegas and 1 team to Hawaii and yes..he pockets the rest. Do you honestly think the guys....yes that's right...more than one guy runs money league dont put money in their pocket also?

Him...i did not know all that.

Me.... No problem. A lot of people have thought the same way you do without knowing all the facts. There is nothing wrong with playing money league but you can't look at it as you are going to make money off of playing in an amateur pool league because whatever little you get back aint worth the time invested. I played the same money league you at quitting me to join for 2 years. The sessions are 6 months long and my team came in 2nd twice in 4 sessions and 3rd and 4th the other 2. I figured it up after we came in 2nd the first session. After subtracting 6 months of fees out of my portion of the payout I made a whopping 100.00 . When you add up all the quarters I spent playing I probably lost money. If you want to make money playing pool practice every minute you can and play tournaments but remember .....there is always somebody better than you playing also.

Him....i am gonna stay with you.

Me...try both if you can swing it but it was his not my cup of tea having to fade the lying...cheating....drama...dive bars .

Him...are you serious ?

Me... Well money brings out the worst in people it seems . I encountered way more arguments over rules and fouls in 2 years of money league than i have encountered in 7 years of apa and 2 years of Napa ....1 year of bcapl and now have been playing tap for 3 months and not a single issue with any one in that league. Like I said....you might like it and I know several people that play both but I just wanted to let you know some facts that you were not aware of.

Maybe he will stay....maybe he will.play both. It just amused me I had a new player that started forming the same opinion that I have read from quite a few members of this forum. Oh yea....i just happened to pick up a darn good player from that money league last night for next session. Not sure if he is going to play both as I did not ask but this person played apa before and apparently realizes it aint all bad in this league.

Captain18
08-15-2017, 08:41 PM
I have been Captaining teams for over 15 years... .....
Anyone who thinks they are gonna "make " money playing leagues is a fool.... sure we have won a nice amount over the years..and it is nice to say you"won/made $1500..$2000...(or whatever amount)..but it never equals out to what you spend... Especially when you split it among the players....add up entry fees..dues...travel..etc...... and don't forget the seasons you didn't win anything...

League pool is a fun social activity that can be highly competitive (depending on your area)...and yes if you play well you can win$$$$ but you will never make $$$.

TX Poolnut
08-15-2017, 09:43 PM
Playing leagues for profit seems counterintuitive to me. If you want to try to make money playing pool just hustle a little. League pool was always just a reason to get out of the house for me.

Ched
08-15-2017, 10:15 PM
Interesting discussion. Personally I learned long ago that gambling isn't a way to "make money" .. but maybe I have a twisted outlook on life.

Ekojasiloop
08-15-2017, 11:42 PM
The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

gregnice37
08-16-2017, 01:15 AM
The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

I believe the APA does pay your way to Vegas if you win the states.

lorider
08-16-2017, 05:07 AM
I believe the APA does pay your way to Vegas if you win the states.

I have been fo Vegas one time which was 4 years ago and here is how it went with us.

I dont remember the dollar amount but you had the option of taking the money and making your own arrangements or having the league operator handle all the semantics.

I chose having the league operator do it. I requested flight tickets for 6 players.....2 had to be changed to the next day for 2 players which was an additional charge from the airline that came out of our winning and requested 4 rooms for 5 days. We got back 400.00 after those expenses. Every team upon registering when you arrive in Vegas gets 350.00 . Some call it show up money and others call it last place money.

gregcantrall
08-16-2017, 05:29 AM
Interesting discussion. Personally I learned long ago that gambling isn't a way to "make money" .. but maybe I have a twisted outlook on life.

Playing pool for money and gambling are not necessarily the same.

One reason I used to play league pool was the contacts I could make with new customers.

lorider
08-16-2017, 05:36 AM
One thing I did not mention in my op is how money affects your own players sometimes

When I first started my money team I paid every one the same percentage ....and every one agreed to that.

After the second session was over and I was dividing the money up a few were complaining about they played more games than others and had more invested and therefore should get more back.

I stopped counting and looked up at them and said.....wtf are you talking about ? Well we was thinking how it is not fair some pay in more than others and yet every one gets the same back. I replied that I do see some validity to their viewpoint but that every one on the team had the same amount of time away from their families invested and we had played under this agreement for an entire year and i was not changing it in the middle of dividing the money up.

At the start of the next session we took a vote and the majority voted to pay out based on the number of matches played. At the end of the session some were not happy because they had showed up every week willing to play but and had no say over who played and who didn't and should not be penalized at the end od the session for not being chosen to play more often . Damn what a headache.!

Next session I came up with a solution that appeased every one ...i thought. Every one pays in every week whether they played or not. That was a pain in the ass to keep up with getting money from guys who did not show up every week as I had paid their portion when they did not show. I even had one who had a hard time paying what he owed tell me to take it out if his winnings when got up to about 40.00 he owed me.

So at the end of the session I pull out my little black book and as I am dividing up the money I am deducting what some players owe me I hear one player say......well I won more games than anyone else so I should get more because we would not have come in 2nd place without all my wins. Wtf !! I threw him an extra 20.00 out of my stack and said thank you for being better than any one else on the team. I then told the team I was through playing money league.

ctyhntr
08-16-2017, 06:39 AM
This is the business model for APA. Depending on the league operator, some will pay all expenses, while others will assist with travel fund. Some LO will go the extra mile, offer cash tournaments, while others only offer 8-ball and none of the other league products.

I believe the APA does pay your way to Vegas if you win the states.

ctyhntr
08-16-2017, 06:59 AM
I could be wrong, but the only way to participate in APA nationals in Las Vegas is to win the trip. Other leagues such as ACS, BCAPL its up to the individual league operator to offer trips as prizes.

In the latter leagues, you can pay your own way to Las Vegas if you don't win a trip prize. In my area, this is one attraction for BCA,ACS sanctioned leagues. There are quite a few people in my local pool scene who make the annual pilgrimage to BCA and or ACS nationals, irregardless whether they win a trip or not.

In APA, unless you win the trip, I don't believe you can attend Nationals in LV, even on your own dime.

The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

lorider
08-16-2017, 07:04 AM
I could be wrong, but the only way to participate in APA nationals in Las Vegas is to win the trip. Other leagues such as ACS, BCAPL its up to the individual league operator to offer trips as prizes.

In the latter leagues, you can pay your own way to Las Vegas if you don't win a trip prize. In my area, this is one attraction for BCA,ACS sanctioned leagues. There are quite a few people in my local pool scene who make the annual pilgrimage to BCA and or ACS nationals, irregardless whether they win a trip or not.

In APA, unless you win the trip, I don't believe you can attend Nationals in LV, even on your own dime.

It is my understanding that you can go and play in mini mania events on your own ...as long as you are a current member

hang-the-9
08-16-2017, 07:05 AM
My view on playing pool "for money" is, unless you are a top player or a pro, you are not there to make money or win trips for your pool playing. You play to enjoy the game and to drive yourself to play well (for those that are serious about their playing that is), if you happen to get something for it, bonus! Some of my favorite players that I like to see and chat with in pool halls are those C and weaker B players that I pay with that I have never seen cash in a tournament but are still there every week, not those players that only play because they can win the event or those that play a few times then quit when they see they are not as good.

All those B and A players that enter top events like the US Open or even many stops at the Joss tour with several pro and Open players in them should be praised for playing, they are putting up their money with really no expectation of a return, are doing it just to play and maybe for a chance to meet and play with some of the top players they are fans of. You can pay $60 and end up playing Strickland, Immonen, etc.. in a regional event in a race to 7-11 or something. Try doing that with them when gambling or with any pro player outside of pool.

Low500
08-16-2017, 08:06 AM
I have been Captaining teams for over 15 years... .....
Anyone who thinks they are gonna "make " money playing leagues is a fool.... sure we have won a nice amount over the years..and it is nice to say you"won/made $1500..$2000...(or whatever amount)..but it never equals out to what you spend... Especially when you split it among the players....add up entry fees..dues...travel..etc...... and don't forget the seasons you didn't win anything...
League pool is a fun social activity that can be highly competitive (depending on your area)...and yes if you play well you can win$$$$ but you will never make $$$.
You're correct in all points.
Those who have 'visions of grandeur' need a reality check to understand that for most players, pool for ca$h is, at best, just an enjoyable part time job.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

buckets
08-16-2017, 09:58 AM
people just HATE seeing other people make money, even when they earned it

I really don't understand that shithead mentality

fastone371
08-16-2017, 10:40 AM
One thing I did not mention in my op is how money affects your own players sometimes

When I first started my money team I paid every one the same percentage ....and every one agreed to that.

After the second session was over and I was dividing the money up a few were complaining about they played more games than others and had more invested and therefore should get more back.

I stopped counting and looked up at them and said.....wtf are you talking about ? Well we was thinking how it is not fair some pay in more than others and yet every one gets the same back. I replied that I do see some validity to their viewpoint but that every one on the team had the same amount of time away from their families invested and we had played under this agreement for an entire year and i was not changing it in the middle of dividing the money up.

At the start of the next session we took a vote and the majority voted to pay out based on the number of matches played. At the end of the session some were not happy because they had showed up every week willing to play but and had no say over who played and who didn't and should not be penalized at the end od the session for not being chosen to play more often . Damn what a headache.!

Next session I came up with a solution that appeased every one ...i thought. Every one pays in every week whether they played or not. That was a pain in the ass to keep up with getting money from guys who did not show up every week as I had paid their portion when they did not show. I even had one who had a hard time paying what he owed tell me to take it out if his winnings when got up to about 40.00 he owed me.

So at the end of the session I pull out my little black book and as I am dividing up the money I am deducting what some players owe me I hear one player say......well I won more games than anyone else so I should get more because we would not have come in 2nd place without all my wins. Wtf !! I threw him an extra 20.00 out of my stack and said thank you for being better than any one else on the team. I then told the team I was through playing money league.

Sounds like your biggest problem in a "money" league was your team mates, unbelievable. When our LO divides the year end prize money he puts a little extra money aside for the player on each team with the highest point average. Your team mate would be better off putting $7 in a jar every week of league play and when his season ended he empties the contents of the jar into his pocket. He would walk away with more money that way.

Koop
08-16-2017, 11:40 AM
You can make money playing league pool? Here I thought it was just a night to smash balls into the rails and have a few beers.

BC21
08-16-2017, 11:43 AM
The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

I've won 4 trips to Vegas....2 with the Valley 8-ball league and 2 with BCA. I chose another player to take my place each time. All four trips were paid for, including airfare, hotel costs, and tournament fees, plus some spending money for food. I was a sub on each of those winning teams, and I only had to play 8 or 12 weeks to satisfy the league minimum in order to qualify for the national Vegas tournaments. I was upfront with each team captain about not caring for a trip to Vegas. Of course, they'd try to coax me into going throughout the league season, but I really had no desire to go blow a bunch of money in Vegas, which I would surely do because I'm good at it! Lol. So I never cashed in on my "free" trips.

Fact is, most league players depend on the luck of the draw for a Vegas trip, where in some areas the top 2 teams go automatically, then 2 are chosen by drawing teams out of a hat. Most players spend around $12 per week to play, then if they have a beer or several, add another $25 to $30 per week. It costs these players nearly $200 a month to play league pool. At that price,, they're really paying for their own Vegas trip. The smart ones drink water and spend as little cash as possible.

Anyway, I'm sure many would find another activity/excuse, like bowling or poker night, to spend their money if they weren't playing league pool. It's a social function for most. I'm 100% in favor of leagues. The more people playing pool the better, whether it's serious or just for recreational outings. And it doesn't matter if you're shooting for cash prizes or a trip to Vegas, it's all the same.

Brian in VA
08-16-2017, 02:00 PM
How to make $1 million playing pool.

1st - Start with $2 million.........

jojopiff
08-16-2017, 02:31 PM
The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

Out team went for 9ball last year, 8 people. So 4 rooms for 4 or 5 nights (don't remember exactly) and 8 flights from Colorado. What we won was enough to cover that and still have a few hundred left over to split up.

But, unless you win you local tourney you can't go play in the main tournament anyways.

My list of pool accomplishments is quite small. However, I've been to Vegas for pool many times (through BCA mostly) so it's not as big of deal to me, though it's still exciting. But, for many of the people who are 3,4,5's etc, it's quite likely the only time they'll get to be on that sort of stage.

I will say, the thing I'm most proud of is making it to Vegas for singles as well as teams. It's a very tough thing to do. About every team you run in to has a story of how they coulda/shoulda lost but somehow managed to pull it out. And, the singles tournament is quite tough as well (unless you're just a world beater) as you have to negotiate a whole room full of people who likely play just as well as you.

Captain18
08-16-2017, 06:16 PM
One thing I did not mention in my op is how money affects your own players sometimes

When I first started my money team I paid every one the same percentage ....and every one agreed to that.

After the second session was over and I was dividing the money up a few were complaining about they played more games than others and had more invested and therefore should get more back.

I stopped counting and looked up at them and said.....wtf are you talking about ? Well we was thinking how it is not fair some pay in more than others and yet every one gets the same back. I replied that I do see some validity to their viewpoint but that every one on the team had the same amount of time away from their families invested and we had played under this agreement for an entire year and i was not changing it in the middle of dividing the money up..

This is an easy solution.... I tell all my players upfront....All money....goin out or comin in... is split evenly, regardless of weeks/matches played. Everyone pays the same upfront (or within the first 2-3 weeks) and at the end of the season/tournament, any prize money is split evenly.

know it all
08-16-2017, 07:49 PM
Want to talk about cheap,are apa leaque operator in Florida does not give out patches,and makes it known ,he tells you,.lee county Florida,he is a Joke,and his leaque rep and her whole team gets drunk and loud, real nice
example to set in front of everyone,I mean loud, my be someone at the St Louis office will see or read this and take his francise away and get someone that has some class and award people what's due to them and their team,he does nothing, Tim Pollot. Is his name.

Skippy27
08-17-2017, 12:22 AM
In the team I captain I keep track of who played and what they have paid.

If you played and payed you share in the winnings for that night. If you did not, then you don't. If you owe money, it goes to previous nights you played but did not pay.

I do not concern myself with total games or win %, though I keep track of all that. As far as I am concerned, we won because everyone contributed.

trifectasss
08-17-2017, 12:29 AM
The entire draw of "going to vegas" seems so fabricated to me. Can't anybody just haul off and go to Vegas anytime. It's not like they pay your way there, is it?

Well, try spending a week or more in Vegas without an event that eats up a big portion of your time. It's maddening. But with an entry in 8 ball and 9 ball singles and team play, I've spent up to 9 or 10 days there and never felt like I couldn't wait to get home. Not counting minis, at least 6 of those days are committed to pool to some degree. You are then left with 3 or 4 complete days, broken up not consecutive, to enjoy Vegas anyway you'd like. I've been to Vegas without pool and 4 or 5 consecutive days and I'm ready to come home. 9 days can fly with pool tournaments added in.

Also, if you've had a bad run of luck in the casinos and don't have any matches on your schedule, it's nice to go find a player or team you know or are interested in and just relax and watch.

Petros Andrikop
08-17-2017, 12:42 AM
This is the main problem currently for Pool everywhere. Amateur players demanding playing Pool for profit. Pool at amateur level should be played solely for the game, but the mentality settled now is irreversible. Not everyone thinks this way, but a major percent does and the industry seems to be happy with this vicious cycle.

lorider
08-17-2017, 05:45 AM
This is the main problem currently for Pool everywhere. Amateur players demanding playing Pool for profit. Pool at amateur level should be played solely for the game, but the mentality settled now is irreversible. Not everyone thinks this way, but a major percent does and the industry seems to be happy with this vicious cycle.

All this plus expecting from e table time.

jackpot
08-17-2017, 08:25 PM
Years ago in Dallas I played in the league that was run by Randy G.
I can't remember what league it was but as you might expect with
Randy running it was top notch. We were in the Masters Division and
played in different pool rooms on 4x8's. There was a big league
tournament at the end of the year that drew teams from all over Texas.
It paid out not only for the winning team but for individuals with best
records through the season. We had a good team with Bob Vanover
Paul Gurnsey (who won the singles Masters Title, money and a trip
to Italy ) and other very good players. We won the Masters Divison in Vegas
in 95 finished second 94, 96. Being played on 4x8's instead of bar
tables was a big plus, even though we played on bar tables in Vegas.
With so few pool rooms now the leagues play mostly in bars on bar
tables which I don't care for. As for the payouts, that league paid out
a lot. Whatever the person makes running a league is not enough.
It's is a whole lot of work, and headaches. With the handicapping
in the APA it seems like a crap shoot at best. In the league Randy ran
there were different divisions and if you played in the Masters there
was no handicapping, so no stalling. It had a lot of really good players
in it, T.J. Davis, Little Al Mason and our own Jerry Forsythe just to mention
a few. I don't know about the leagues now but I came out winner for
the time I played.
jack