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JAM
08-16-2017, 03:02 AM
Even pool's fourth estate is crying for BCA to step up to the plate and resurrect pool in AMERICA. I mean, after all, the name of the organization is Billiards Congress of AMERICA.

According to a recent Billiards Digest Publisher's article, Mike Panozzo writes: "The BCA should lead the charge to develop a national team. It's part of their mission. And it would be a lift for the sport."

And then there's this: "The BCA isn’t flush with money, but it does have upwards of $1 million in its reserves. I understand the BCA has a fiduciary responsibility to its members to keep the association alive and sound. I also believe it has a responsibility to use some of that money to grow the sport."

A million dollars? What, are you kidding me? And they can't produce a frigging professional tournament?

Like the WPA, the BCA continues to fatten the pockets of its members while ignoring the very thing they are charged with supporting, and that is professional pool. After all, the BCA is the so-called governing body of professional pool. Well, what have you done for them lately, BCA?

Industry members continue to say the BCA is there for them, but I've got news for you, Industry Members, it ain't all about you. That's not what the purpose of the organization is supposed to be.

The WPA and the BCA are a joke. Somebody needs to be held accountable for the continued pocketing of funds while professional pool is dying a slow and ugly death in the United States.

If nothing is done, I suggest nobody support the WPA and BCA with membership dues and sanctioning fees. Screw 'em!

Read more here about what can be done to promote professional pool: Battle Cry (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/showblogentry.php?id=333).

trob
08-16-2017, 03:13 AM
1) I wouldn't give a dime to the professionals until they can put together a governing body that can do something worthwhile to make a pro tour.
2) I could be wrong but all the pro sports I know of good money to. The amateurs to keep the game alive and support it .. not the other way around.

JAM
08-16-2017, 04:14 AM
1) I wouldn't give a dime to the professionals until they can put together a governing body that can do something worthwhile to make a pro tour.
2) I could be wrong but all the pro sports I know of good money to. The amateurs to keep the game alive and support it .. not the other way around.

In case you did not notice, the BCA sold the amateur league. Didn't want anything to do with it. Now they've dropped professional pool. The BCA is only looking out for industry members. They should be stripped of the title as the "governing body of professional pool in North America." They have distanced themselves away from pro pool, amateur pool, leagues, social shooting. The BCA wants to help industry members only.

They should change the name of the organization to Billiard Industry of America.

jay helfert
08-16-2017, 05:41 AM
In case you did not notice, the BCA sold the amateur league. Didn't want anything to do with it. Now they've dropped professional pool. The BCA is only looking out for industry members. They should be stripped of the title as the "governing body of professional pool in North America." They have distanced themselves away from pro pool, amateur pool, leagues, social shooting. The BCA wants to help industry members only.

They should change the name of the organization to Billiard Industry of America.

Very short sighted on their part. A professional Pool Tour would do wonders for their respective businesses. Developing a program to introduce Pool as a high school sport would also be a big step in the right direction. They've wasted many years and spent way too many dollars pursuing the Olympics to no avail.

chefjeff
08-16-2017, 06:27 AM
Very short sighted on their part. A professional Pool Tour would do wonders for their respective businesses. Developing a program to introduce Pool as a high school sport would also be a big step in the right direction. They've wasted many years and spent way too many dollars pursuing the Olympics to no avail.

The Olympics would be ZERO help for pool's popularity.

What a waste of resources chasing that rabbit.

I remember years ago thinking I should join the BCA and throw some money into the sport. As I researched it more, I changed my mind. It's only gotten worse since then, imho.

Competition is taking care of the problem. The whole shebang of tournaments/events/shows/streamings, etc. is taking the pool world away from centrally planned do-nothing organizations and towards who knows what. I can hardly wait!


Jeff Livingston

K2Kraze
08-16-2017, 06:31 AM
Quick thought and comment on these posts from both JAM and Jay that I'm quite certain most members and players would agree with - we have the power to change the current state and purpose of the BCA by replacing them - and creating an organization that truly supports and promotes pool in America. With industry leaders, players and people that care to affect change.

Let's figure the way and implement it. Build it.

Every organization, idea , book and invention (to name a few) starts with a vision and a pencil. Action brings them to life.

Now - how do we (as the people) bring it to life?



~ K.

realkingcobra
08-16-2017, 06:35 AM
In case you did not notice, the BCA sold the amateur league. Didn't want anything to do with it. Now they've dropped professional pool. The BCA is only looking out for industry members. They should be stripped of the title as the "governing body of professional pool in North America." They have distanced themselves away from pro pool, amateur pool, leagues, social shooting. The BCA wants to help industry members only.

They should change the name of the organization to Billiard Industry of America.

I've been saying for years, with no top end in this sport, all you have is the bottom tier players!

joelpope
08-16-2017, 07:06 AM
If you are looking to the BCA to support professional pool tournaments or players i think you are barking up the wrong tree. The BCA is a trade organization, if you look at their by-laws below, "Professional Pool Players" are not even entitled to vote, and, promoting tournaments is not on their radar.

Equipment makers can vote, Media can vote, Retailers can vote, pool room operators can vote; do you see any of them voting to spend BCA resources on putting on a pro tour? This info is from the By Laws of the organization and is available on their web site. Take a minute and read it

Article II: Purpose/ Objectives
Section 2.1
The mission of the BCA is to enhance the success of BCA members and to promote the sport of billiards.
Section 2.2
The objectives of the BCA shall be:
(1) To develop interest and participation throughout the United States in the sport of billiards and to educate those connected with or desirous of becoming affiliated with the billiard industry.
(2) To collect and disseminate statistics and information of a general economic, social and government character, analyze subjects relating thereto, and secure and present the view of the members to other organizations, the government and the public.
(3) To conduct trade promotion activities, including advertising and publicity.
(4) To work with other organizations to improve all areas of the billiard industry.
(5) To engage in any lawful activity that will enhance the efficient and economic progress of the industry and inform the public of its scope and character.

Article III: Membership
Section 3.1
There shall be four (4) categories of membership, each with its own privileges, voting rights and dues structure.

Category 1
Manufacturer/Distributor – Licensed business entity with its principle business in the manufacturing process or wholesale distribution of billiard equipment or accessories.
Billiard Media – Licensed business entity with its principle business in billiard media. However, Billiard Media members are not entitled to hold a Board of Directors position.

Category 2
Retailer – Licensed business entity with its principle business in the selling of billiard equipment or billiard accessories from an established, publicly known place of business.

Category 3
Room Operator
1. Licensed business with its principle business operating one or more establishments
where billiards are played, and
2. Licensed business with its principle business operating a billiards league or league
system.

Category 4
Affiliate – All others in four subgroups:
1. Associations, organizations, billiard media and other licensed entities actively
engaged in the billiard industry,
2. Licensed entities not engaged in the billiard industry,
3. Professional Billiard players (individuals) that earn their living from playing billiards,
giving exhibitions of billiards, or otherwise promoting the sport, and
4. Any other person or entity that the board of directors deems appropriate for
membership in the organization.


Eligibility: An entity may apply for membership in any applicable category subject to review by the Membership Committee. Questions of eligibility will be resolved by the Board of Directors.
It is the responsibility of each member entity to inform the BCA, in writing, of any change in their status or in their contact information within 30 days of the change.


Each member entity in Categories 1, 2 and 3, must designate to the Secretary of the BCA one person to be its representative at membership meetings for the purpose of acting upon business matters, being eligible for a BCA appointment, and being eligible for nominations and election to a BCA elected position.

Member entities in Category 4 do not have voting privileges and their personnel are not eligible for appointment or election.

realkingcobra
08-16-2017, 07:15 AM
If you are looking to the BCA to support professional pool tournaments or players i think you are barking up the wrong tree. The BCA is a trade organization, if you look at their by-laws below, "Professional Pool Players" are not even entitled to vote, and, promoting tournaments is not on their radar.

Equipment makers can vote, Media can vote, Retailers can vote, pool room operators can vote; do you see any of them voting to spend BCA resources on putting on a pro tour? This info is from the By Laws of the organization and is available on their web site. Take a minute and read it

Article II: Purpose/ Objectives
Section 2.1
The mission of the BCA is to enhance the success of BCA members and to promote the sport of billiards.
Section 2.2
The objectives of the BCA shall be:
(1) To develop interest and participation throughout the United States in the sport of billiards and to educate those connected with or desirous of becoming affiliated with the billiard industry.
(2) To collect and disseminate statistics and information of a general economic, social and government character, analyze subjects relating thereto, and secure and present the view of the members to other organizations, the government and the public.
(3) To conduct trade promotion activities, including advertising and publicity.
(4) To work with other organizations to improve all areas of the billiard industry.
(5) To engage in any lawful activity that will enhance the efficient and economic progress of the industry and inform the public of its scope and character.

Article III: Membership
Section 3.1
There shall be four (4) categories of membership, each with its own privileges, voting rights and dues structure.

Category 1
Manufacturer/Distributor Ė Licensed business entity with its principle business in the manufacturing process or wholesale distribution of billiard equipment or accessories.
Billiard Media Ė Licensed business entity with its principle business in billiard media. However, Billiard Media members are not entitled to hold a Board of Directors position.

Category 2
Retailer Ė Licensed business entity with its principle business in the selling of billiard equipment or billiard accessories from an established, publicly known place of business.

Category 3
Room Operator
1. Licensed business with its principle business operating one or more establishments
where billiards are played, and
2. Licensed business with its principle business operating a billiards league or league
system.

Category 4
Affiliate Ė All others in four subgroups:
1. Associations, organizations, billiard media and other licensed entities actively
engaged in the billiard industry,
2. Licensed entities not engaged in the billiard industry,
3. Professional Billiard players (individuals) that earn their living from playing billiards,
giving exhibitions of billiards, or otherwise promoting the sport, and
4. Any other person or entity that the board of directors deems appropriate for
membership in the organization.


Eligibility: An entity may apply for membership in any applicable category subject to review by the Membership Committee. Questions of eligibility will be resolved by the Board of Directors.
It is the responsibility of each member entity to inform the BCA, in writing, of any change in their status or in their contact information within 30 days of the change.


Each member entity in Categories 1, 2 and 3, must designate to the Secretary of the BCA one person to be its representative at membership meetings for the purpose of acting upon business matters, being eligible for a BCA appointment, and being eligible for nominations and election to a BCA elected position.

Member entities in Category 4 do not have voting privileges and their personnel are not eligible for appointment or election.

Just wondering, if the BCA has no responsibility to promote Processional Pool, then why do they charge such HIGH fees to sanction a pool tournament as BCA sanctioned....when instead if sponsoring such event, they hold their hand out and take money?

tonyboy59
08-16-2017, 07:28 AM
The BCA has longed outlived its usefulness and does little to promote amateur/professional pool. This should pose no surprise to those of us that have been in the industry for quite some time.

hang-the-9
08-16-2017, 07:41 AM
The Olympics would be ZERO help for pool's popularity.

What a waste of resources chasing that rabbit.

I remember years ago thinking I should join the BCA and throw some money into the sport. As I researched it more, I changed my mind. It's only gotten worse since then, imho.

Competition is taking care of the problem. The whole shebang of tournaments/events/shows/streamings, etc. is taking the pool world away from centrally planned do-nothing organizations and towards who knows what. I can hardly wait!


Jeff Livingston

West Coast Mezz tour melts in with Joss and Predator tours, and we have a national Pro Tour. The issue is several promoters without a real large revenue stream is what pro pool is now. Not something backed by a billion dollar company like RJR or even what the IPT was with it's plans for online gambling site revenue. Look at what the IPT did when it was running strong, how many players came out of retirement or even out of hiding from just playing money games to play in the tour? Sure it ended up as crap at the end, but I think that was at least 75% because of the government and changing laws for online gambling and advertising things like cigarettes and liquor.

BCA, WPA, really any pool organization only has teeth to rule because the players are playing for scraps that drop off the table so they have to play where and for who they can or need to get jobs. What the WPA is doing with prohibiting players to play is ridiculous seeing how they are not paying the players money from a contract but only what they can win. MLB may be able to dictate what the players can do, but they pay them millions of dollars a year over many years in contracts. Some 10th best hitter on a team that never wins their division will still make $500,000 a year no matter what. Now there is something that a player can agree with when they have restrictions about where and when they can play. You get paid to play in MLB on a team, you don't get paid when playing "for" the WPA, hell you don't even play FOR the WPA, you play for yourself. A 10th best player in a tournament has to cash in that tournament to make any money or just break even and they have to actually go all over the place using their own money to play in events.

BassMasterK
08-16-2017, 07:52 AM
Very short sighted on their part. A professional Pool Tour would do wonders for their respective businesses. Developing a program to introduce Pool as a high school sport would also be a big step in the right direction. They've wasted many years and spent way too many dollars pursuing the Olympics to no avail.

I was actually just thinking about the high school sport angle the other day. When I was a freshman in high school in the mid 80's, I joined the golf team. Not because I was good, I had only swung a club a handful of times, but because some of my friends were going to join and we got to play golf for "free" (we didn't seem to take our parents paying fees into account). So twice a week after school we would load on a bus and go to the local municipal golf course and play for two hours.

That same year I got bit by the pool bug. I would beg my parents for rides to the local billiard hall (which was all ages) whenever I could and they were good sports about it, but it was no way near as convenient for them like the golf team was. The next year I got my license and I would be at that pool hall as much as I could be. We had an under 21 team as did two other places in the metro area and we would get together once a month or so and match up for team play and the pool halls would run under-21 tournaments as well. It was a great time.

There are dozens of high schools in the metro area that I live in. What if even half of those schools had a billiard team? How many kids would love to hop on a bus with their friends and go to the local pool hall and play for a couple hours a few times a week? I'm pretty sure a lot would. The biggest problem would be finding tables because there are only two places I am aware of that have any tables available for all ages now because of a drop off in youth participation. I know a lot of halls are struggling for cash. Here is an untapped market that could bring in regular income during the season in green fees and sold cues and accessories, and when events are held, would sell a lot in snacks and drinks to the people there to cheer on their teams.

If we want to build the sport back up I think a great place to start is with our youth. As it is now, at least where I live, the only kids playing the game are doing it because their parents play, and/or they have access to a table at home. If we could get billiard teams in our schools, it may be just what the sport needs to get another surge in popularity, potentially a permanent one. How to make that happen is the big question. It would be helpful if some of these organizations that are here to promote the sport would take the lead with this and work in conjunction with local folks who would be willing to participate. Most if not all school sports have some sort of sanctioning body that establishes rules and a format of play.

CSI Media
08-16-2017, 11:23 AM
Some of you are confusing the Billiard Congress of America (BCA), which is a trade organization, with the BCA Pool Leagues (BCAPL), which is owned by CueSports International.
CueSports International owns BCAPL and USAPL in addition to organizing and promoting several professional tournaments, such as the Jay Swanson Memorial, the US Open 8-Ball, the US Open 10-Ball, the US Open One Pocket and the US Open Straight Pool Championships.
CSI has been a tireless supporter of professional pool and its players, while offering and sanctioning amateur leagues throughout North America and the world to build and grow the sport we are all passionate about. We strive to offer competitive opportunities and growth for players of all skill levels.

Joe_Jaguar
08-16-2017, 02:33 PM
Some of you are confusing the Billiard Congress of America (BCA), which is a trade organization, with the BCA Pool Leagues (BCAPL), which is owned by CueSports International.
CueSports International owns BCAPL and USAPL in addition to organizing and promoting several professional tournaments, such as the Jay Swanson Memorial, the US Open 8-Ball, the US Open 10-Ball, the US Open One Pocket and the US Open Straight Pool Championships.
CSI has been a tireless supporter of professional pool and its players, while offering and sanctioning amateur leagues throughout North America and the world to build and grow the sport we are all passionate about. We strive to offer competitive opportunities and growth for players of all skill levels.

Where is anyone in this thread confusing BCA vs BCAPL?

What does Ozzy do on the BCA board of directors?

greyghost
08-16-2017, 03:05 PM
Where is anyone in this thread confusing BCA vs BCAPL?

What does Ozzy do on the BCA board of directors?



I've always likened the BCA to dead beat parents who want the benefits of having children but refuse to raise them :/


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Paul Schofield
08-16-2017, 05:59 PM
Yes, the BCA is a trade organization. Professional pool is a trade. There is nothing stopping the Professional Players from organizing their own company and bringing their trade to the table. It is a lot of work, a lot of lobbying and politicking, and takes time. By-laws are amendable.

Joe_Jaguar
08-16-2017, 06:11 PM
Yes, the BCA is a trade organization. Professional pool is a trade. There is nothing stopping the Professional Players from organizing their own company and bringing their trade to the table. It is a lot of work, a lot of lobbying and politicking, and takes time. By-laws are amendable.

Would the WPA then recognize them as the governing body of pool in North America :rolleyes:

pt109
08-16-2017, 06:53 PM
Would the WPA then recognize them as the governing body of pool in North America :rolleyes:

When the WPBSA formed in England, they were not the governing body of snooker and
billiards....the Billiards Association and Control Council was.
They became a force in their own right...even modified some rules....which the BACC
eventually adopted.

A credible Professional Pool organization doesn't have to be the governing body.....
...but it will have to be recognized.

jay helfert
08-17-2017, 08:04 AM
I was actually just thinking about the high school sport angle the other day. When I was a freshman in high school in the mid 80's, I joined the golf team. Not because I was good, I had only swung a club a handful of times, but because some of my friends were going to join and we got to play golf for "free" (we didn't seem to take our parents paying fees into account). So twice a week after school we would load on a bus and go to the local municipal golf course and play for two hours.

That same year I got bit by the pool bug. I would beg my parents for rides to the local billiard hall (which was all ages) whenever I could and they were good sports about it, but it was no way near as convenient for them like the golf team was. The next year I got my license and I would be at that pool hall as much as I could be. We had an under 21 team as did two other places in the metro area and we would get together once a month or so and match up for team play and the pool halls would run under-21 tournaments as well. It was a great time.

There are dozens of high schools in the metro area that I live in. What if even half of those schools had a billiard team? How many kids would love to hop on a bus with their friends and go to the local pool hall and play for a couple hours a few times a week? I'm pretty sure a lot would. The biggest problem would be finding tables because there are only two places I am aware of that have any tables available for all ages now because of a drop off in youth participation. I know a lot of halls are struggling for cash. Here is an untapped market that could bring in regular income during the season in green fees and sold cues and accessories, and when events are held, would sell a lot in snacks and drinks to the people there to cheer on their teams.

If we want to build the sport back up I think a great place to start is with our youth. As it is now, at least where I live, the only kids playing the game are doing it because their parents play, and/or they have access to a table at home. If we could get billiard teams in our schools, it may be just what the sport needs to get another surge in popularity, potentially a permanent one. How to make that happen is the big question. It would be helpful if some of these organizations that are here to promote the sport would take the lead with this and work in conjunction with local folks who would be willing to participate. Most if not all school sports have some sort of sanctioning body that establishes rules and a format of play.


No need to go the local poolroom when one empty classroom would suffice. Two pool tables, some house cues, balls etc. and you're in action. No expensive equipment or uniforms required either. It would be the cheapest sport in the school's entire sports program to create and maintain. Best of all, kids LOVE pool! There would be no problem finding kids to play on the teams. It's a natural and the BCA has dogged it on this one for decades. In their by-laws they state as the first objective "to create interest and participation in the sport of pool." Promoting high school pool leagues fits right into this stated objective. Pretty sad when you think about the lost opportunities for pool in America.

skip100
08-17-2017, 08:11 AM
When the WPBSA formed in England, they were not the governing body of snooker and
billiards....the Billiards Association and Control Council was.
They became a force in their own right...even modified some rules....which the BACC
eventually adopted.

A credible Professional Pool organization doesn't have to be the governing body.....
...but it will have to be recognized.
In fact a professional organization should not be the governing body. USTA and WTA/ATP, USGA and PGA/LPGA Tour, and so on. They have different aims but each is necessary for there to be a thriving professional scene in an individual sport.

greyghost
08-17-2017, 08:11 AM
No need to go the local poolroom when one empty classroom would suffice. Two pool tables, some house cues, balls etc. and you're in action. No expensive equipment or uniforms required either. It would be the cheapest sport in the school's entire sports program to create and maintain. Best of all, kids LOVE pool! There would be no problem finding kids to play on the teams. It's a natural and the BCA has dogged it on this one for decades. In their by-laws they state as the first objective "to create interest and participation in the sport of pool." Promoting high school pool leagues fits right into this stated objective. Pretty sad when you think about the lost opportunities for pool in America.



Well said jay!


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Ghosst
08-17-2017, 09:52 AM
In fact a professional organization should not be the governing body. USTA and WTA/ATP, USGA and PGA/LPGA Tour, and so on. They have different aims but each is necessary for there to be a thriving professional scene in an individual sport.

How many different, "organizations", have the players tried to rally under? Have they run out of acronyms yet?

Pool is a very individual sport with one tournament per year, in the Mosconi Cup, that forces them to unite for a few days of play. Scotch Doubles tournaments might be the only other notable exception.

Because of this nature it's hard to get people who don't intrinsically trust others to get together and work together. Look at the uproar over the WPA fines. But that is what's needed; a framework that everyone adheres to. It goes against their grain.

That is not a bad thing either, it's just the nature of the beast. A beast that has to be tamed or nothing will change. Darren is using 8-ball in his events which could bring about more of an audience than 9-ball and 10-ball.

Golfer's play golf. They don't play a completely different game than amateurs. They use the black tees to make it harder, and have more difficult pin placements. Pool can do the same thing: standardize the equipment (everyone plays on a 9') but make the pockets harder (facings and smaller size). If you change the game you lose the audience. So far that's all that's ever been done; random games, random tables, random pocket sizes. It's no wonder no amateur can follow it.

lorider
08-17-2017, 11:57 AM
How many different, "organizations", have the players tried to rally under? Have they run out of acronyms yet?

Pool is a very individual sport with one tournament per year, in the Mosconi Cup, that forces them to unite for a few days of play. Scotch Doubles tournaments might be the only other notable exception.

Because of this nature it's hard to get people who don't intrinsically trust others to get together and work together. Look at the uproar over the WPA fines. But that is what's needed; a framework that everyone adheres to. It goes against their grain.

That is not a bad thing either, it's just the nature of the beast. A beast that has to be tamed or nothing will change. Darren is using 8-ball in his events which could bring about more of an audience than 9-ball and 10-ball.

Golfer's play golf. They don't play a completely different game than amateurs. They use the black tees to make it harder, and have more difficult pin placements. Pool can do the same thing: standardize the equipment (everyone plays on a 9') but make the pockets harder (facings and smaller size). If you change the game you lose the audience. So far that's all that's ever been done; random games, random tables, random pocket sizes. It's no wonder no amateur can follow it.

I just dont buy the standardizing of table and pocket size.

Foot ball and base ball both have real grass and artificial turf. Either one can affect a players level of pls on any given day by odd bounces or feet slipping.

As far as standard size.... Well there is a big difference between Fenway park and the astrodome and the size difference can affect whether a hit is a home run or not.

Should they both go to standardized sizes and type of field ? Some how I dont think changing to standardization would make either game more popular than they already are so why would standardization make pool more popular than it is ?

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 12:15 PM
No need to go the local poolroom when one empty classroom would suffice. Two pool tables, some house cues, balls etc. and you're in action. No expensive equipment or uniforms required either. It would be the cheapest sport in the school's entire sports program to create and maintain. Best of all, kids LOVE pool! There would be no problem finding kids to play on the teams. It's a natural and the BCA has dogged it on this one for decades. In their by-laws they state as the first objective "to create interest and participation in the sport of pool." Promoting high school pool leagues fits right into this stated objective. Pretty sad when you think about the lost opportunities for pool in America.

You're kidding, right? You would have one room specifically dedicated to a billiards team. That one classroom would fit 4, maybe 6 tables. If you have practice every day, as all highschool sports do, you would accommodate 12 kids, maybe 24 if you did a second session practice. So, you've lost a complete classroom for a couple dozen kids to use for 5hrs per week. Maybe have 'pool' class to better utilize the room, but now you need another teacher for what would be the lowest attendance class (dictated by number of pool tables) in any school.

Ghosst
08-17-2017, 12:25 PM
I just dont buy the standardizing of table and pocket size.

Foot ball and base ball both have real grass and artificial turf. Either one can affect a players level of pls on any given day by odd bounces or feet slipping.

As far as standard size.... Well there is a big difference between Fenway park and the astrodome and the size difference can affect whether a hit is a home run or not.

Should they both go to standardized sizes and type of field ? Some how I dont think changing to standardization would make either game more popular than they already are so why would standardization make pool more popular than it is ?

If we didn't have standardization you couldn't buy an aftermarket radio for your car. It's DIN sizing. The same as mounting a TV or a monitor onto an arm or a wall mount. Expansion cards for your PC. USB devices. The internet itself relies on all of us using TCP/IP which works across all Operating Systems. Golf is the same game at your local club or on the PGA. Baseball in the minors versus the majors. Dartboards are the same size and shape.

There are industry people who read this silently and pay attention. The problem is that AZ is *not* a good representation of the playing public. We are all, for the most part, gamblers. We play 10-ball, 1-pocket, 14.1. We are not the general public at all; we are the diehards. They just play 8-ball on 9' tables the way their dad taught them. Adjusting the rules a little for ball-in-hand, and no 8's on the break isn't too much of a stretch. Playing Bonus Ball is not going to happen, nor 10-ball: it's just too hard for the vast majority. The players have to stop catering to AZ-types and short-stops and instead realize their target audience are the kids who grew up playing in a basement. Otherwise you're selling ice to Eskimos and we've been doing that for the last 100 years and look at where it's gotten us.

greyghost
08-17-2017, 01:55 PM
You're kidding, right? You would have one room specifically dedicated to a billiards team. That one classroom would fit 4, maybe 6 tables. If you have practice every day, as all highschool sports do, you would accommodate 12 kids, maybe 24 if you did a second session practice. So, you've lost a complete classroom for a couple dozen kids to use for 5hrs per week. Maybe have 'pool' class to better utilize the room, but now you need another teacher for what would be the lowest attendance class (dictated by number of pool tables) in any school.



Put one table in physics class or make it a P.E.


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greyghost
08-17-2017, 01:55 PM
Put one table in physics class or make it a P.E.


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Just because it's a game doesn't mean valuable learning can't be involved. Many things could be taught with and on a pool table


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JAM
08-17-2017, 02:21 PM
Just because it's a game doesn't mean valuable learning can't be involved. Many things could be taught with and on a pool table


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BCA historical records state NASA used pool tables to get astronauts ready for outer space. Hand-and-eye coordination. :wink:

pt109
08-17-2017, 02:27 PM
BCA historical records state NASA used pool tables to get astronauts ready for outer space. Hand-and-eye coordination. :wink:

Did Max Eberle give them an exhibition? :cool:

lorider
08-17-2017, 03:18 PM
You're kidding, right? You would have one room specifically dedicated to a billiards team. That one classroom would fit 4, maybe 6 tables. If you have practice every day, as all highschool sports do, you would accommodate 12 kids, maybe 24 if you did a second session practice. So, you've lost a complete classroom for a couple dozen kids to use for 5hrs per week. Maybe have 'pool' class to better utilize the room, but now you need another teacher for what would be the lowest attendance class (dictated by number of pool tables) in any school.

24 is a realistic number si lets roll with that. How many kids on a high school foot ball team.? 50-60 with a couple acres dedicated to them and a 200.000.00 stadium not to mention locker rooms for theirs and the visiting teams.

How many on baseball teams ? Around 30 ? Not much more than the 24 you mentioned for pool. The same for base bal as football above.


Lets not forget about a dozen coaches also for both teams.

Expenditure for 24 pool players is peanuts compared to the expenditure for a half dozen more base ball players and around twice as many football players.

They could hold weekly matches again other high school for a drop in the bucket compared to other sports. Jays view point is not unrealistic when you think about it compared to the expenses high schools incur running other sports.

PoppaSaun
08-17-2017, 03:31 PM
24 is a realistic number si lets roll with that. How many kids on a high school foot ball team.? 50-60 with a couple acres dedicated to them and a 200.000.00 stadium not to mention locker rooms for theirs and the visiting teams.

How many on baseball teams ? Around 30 ? Not much more than the 24 you mentioned for pool. The same for base bal as football above.


Lets not forget about a dozen coaches also for both teams.

Expenditure for 24 pool players is peanuts compared to the expenditure for a half dozen more base ball players and around twice as many football players.

They could hold weekly matches again other high school for a drop in the bucket compared to other sports. Jays view point is not unrealistic when you think about it compared to the expenses high schools incur running other sports.

Most schools have multiple sports played on their football fields. This includes: Football, Soccer, Girls Soccer, Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Track-and-Field, etc.. On top of that, most schools use these fields for PE most of the year. They are also able to have multiple sports practice on the same fields because practice doesn't require the entire field all of the time.

Many of those sports generally charge an admission fee which helps to cover the costs associated. I think we know how charging for pool tourneys works out.

BassMasterK
08-17-2017, 04:35 PM
No need to go the local poolroom when one empty classroom would suffice. Two pool tables, some house cues, balls etc. and you're in action. No expensive equipment or uniforms required either. It would be the cheapest sport in the school's entire sports program to create and maintain. Best of all, kids LOVE pool! There would be no problem finding kids to play on the teams. It's a natural and the BCA has dogged it on this one for decades. In their by-laws they state as the first objective "to create interest and participation in the sport of pool." Promoting high school pool leagues fits right into this stated objective. Pretty sad when you think about the lost opportunities for pool in America.

I had thought of this, but at least in our area, classroom space is really at a premium. Most schools are overcrowded, even in the wealthier school districts so it would likely be a hard sell to get dedicated space. That being said, not every city may be in that situation. I did recently listen to an old ABR podcast where someone did exactly this, got the school to put a couple tables into a space and they had permission to let kids play on lunch time and after school.

I was not only thinking of space consideration, but also maximizing the number of kids playing at one time while helping out local billiard establishments fill some table time in the early evenings. Our local family billiards hall has over 20 tables so they could handle a large number of kids, where 2 tables at a school would be fine for a couple of kids but at a certain point some kids may lose interest if they aren't able to get enough table time. Plus the serious ones would likely be wanting to come more often, bringing friends and/or family to play. I thought this could really help some struggling halls if there were suddenly a half dozen or a dozen high school teams that were suddenly active where there was zero before. I know the place I played as a kid made a lot of money off of us younger players. I think that is why they really supported the under 21 crowd so much with teams and tournaments.

Anyhow, just tossing thoughts out there. I appreciate yours as well Jay. Thank you for all you have done for the community.

chefjeff
08-18-2017, 06:13 AM
Most schools have multiple sports played on their football fields. This includes: Football, Soccer, Girls Soccer, Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Track-and-Field, etc.. On top of that, most schools use these fields for PE most of the year. They are also able to have multiple sports practice on the same fields because practice doesn't require the entire field all of the time.

Many of those sports generally charge an admission fee which helps to cover the costs associated. I think we know how charging for pool tourneys works out.

Taxpayers cover most of those costs for the sports that city councils "approve."

Pool?..eh, not only don't they get money from the tax pool to build giant ballparks in great locations with all the equipment and coaches and stuff needed--nah, that money is used AGAINST pool, with zoning, age restrictions, licensing, etc. etc. etc.


Jeff Livingston

Joe_Jaguar
08-18-2017, 06:18 AM
This thread has gone all kinds of stupid :thud::speechless:

ChicagoRJ
08-18-2017, 07:21 AM
24 is a realistic number si lets roll with that. How many kids on a high school foot ball team.? 50-60 with a couple acres dedicated to them and a 200.000.00 stadium not to mention locker rooms for theirs and the visiting teams.

How many on baseball teams ? Around 30 ? Not much more than the 24 you mentioned for pool. The same for base bal as football above.


Lets not forget about a dozen coaches also for both teams.

Expenditure for 24 pool players is peanuts compared to the expenditure for a half dozen more base ball players and around twice as many football players.

They could hold weekly matches again other high school for a drop in the bucket compared to other sports. Jays view point is not unrealistic when you think about it compared to the expenses high schools incur running other sports.

You're very close :)

I'm in talks with the Athletic Director at a local High School. Not only will it not cost the school a dime (I'm buying both tables, all equipment and will coach the team) and I've still not received the go ahead yet?

It's FREE and they still have not said yes? I don't know what else I can possibly do except actually pay them for the privilege?

I've hit on the points that this brings more folks into sports that might not have been able to play other sports that require speed, strength and size. Also, mentioned possible college scholarships do exist. Not sure if it's a "space" issue or still some bad connotation with the billiard industry ?

PoppaSaun
08-18-2017, 07:29 AM
You're very close :)

I'm in talks with the Athletic Director at a local High School. Not only will it not cost the school a dime (I'm buying both tables, all equipment and will coach the team) and I've still not received the go ahead yet?

It's FREE and they still have not said yes? I don't know what else I can possibly do except actually pay them for the privilege?

I've hit on the points that this brings more folks into sports that might not have been able to play other sports that require speed, strength and size. Also, mentioned possible college scholarships do exist. Not sure if it's a "space" issue or still some bad connotation with the billiard industry ?

Of course it costs them something. It costs them a whole room. Space that could be used for learning something other than a damn game.

The school also won't just affiliate themselves with some dude who wants to hang out teaching boys how to use their sticks. The school will have to do background checks on you before they let you spend time alone with the kids.

Before you say it, yes, the schools allow and need volunteers for programs, but those volunteers are always under the supervision of a teacher or other school official.

PoppaSaun
08-18-2017, 07:30 AM
Taxpayers cover most of those costs for the sports that city councils "approve."

Pool?..eh, not only don't they get money from the tax pool to build giant ballparks in great locations with all the equipment and coaches and stuff needed--nah, that money is used AGAINST pool, with zoning, age restrictions, licensing, etc. etc. etc.


Jeff Livingston

It must be difficult living such an oppressed life. Seriously, there are better forums to spew your crap.

ChicagoRJ
08-18-2017, 08:38 AM
Of course it costs them something. It costs them a whole room. Space that could be used for learning something other than a damn game.

The school also won't just affiliate themselves with some dude who wants to hang out teaching boys how to use their sticks. The school will have to do background checks on you before they let you spend time alone with the kids.

Before you say it, yes, the schools allow and need volunteers for programs, but those volunteers are always under the supervision of a teacher or other school official.

An entire room is small in the scheme of things. The HS must be at least 150,000 SF or more? That's not "small" ;) As far as my background as a former cop (20 years ago) but it was not my career, I left early for more moola ;) I've been through the paces, background, polygraph, etc.

As far as teaching young "boys", I suspect there will be plenty of girls, but nonetheless I was a High School Baseball coach and certified by the state. And some "dude" is also an ACS Master Instructor.

And I'm not paying for the tables, every person that ever bought Magic Chalk is paying for it and they can and should take credit for it when it is finally realized. Not sure I would have reached in my own pockets to do it, but because of MC it's like a "slush fund" that wife doesn't care about, she just wants my work check ;) I don't make a lot in the chalk biz (that's why I didn't quit my day job in the insurance biz) But I have no problem putting all the profits back into pool.

Not trying to post a resume, but just so you know I'm not a guy who just showed up at the local HS and said "hey, I wanna teach some young boys and girls pool". :eek:

Ghosst
08-18-2017, 08:47 AM
This thread has gone all kinds of stupid :thud::speechless:

They all devolve eventually.

At least this one has some common threads. Associations, growth of pool, business of pool, education, new players, etc.

I hate to say it, because vitriol doesn't solve a lot of problems, but JAM is correct. The BCA, in its current form is not doing the job they say they set out to. Certainly if I wanted to open a room they would offer me statistics showing how many people play, and how to cater my business to bring in more customers. But the reason they do it isn't for the growth of the sport, it is bring revenue into their trade association. That part I'm fine with; the goal of most business is to generate money so I expect it. All I would like is for them to not promote that they are helping to grow the player base, the sport itself, or any aspect of professional pool.

My tangent was about the players (how many times have we heard this...) forming one governing body, creating some rules for conduct, behavior and expectations and actually enforcing them. Sort of like what the BCA should be doing if their mission statement is to be believed. I also made reference on where to focus, the audience, and other associated points. Finally I gave some idea of why the player's previous attempts have failed.

All of these ideas, as well as those of other posters have merit. One day, someone might listen.

BassMasterK
08-18-2017, 09:02 AM
An entire room is small in the scheme of things. The HS must be at least 150,000 SF or more? That's not "small" ;) As far as my background as a former cop (20 years ago) but it was not my career, I left early for more moola ;) I've been through the paces, background, polygraph, etc.

As far as teaching young "boys", I suspect there will be plenty of girls, but nonetheless I was a High School Baseball coach and certified by the state. And some "dude" is also an ACS Master Instructor.

And I'm not paying for the tables, every person that ever bought Magic Chalk is paying for it and they can and should take credit for it when it is finally realized. Not sure I would have reached in my own pockets to do it, but because of MC it's like a "slush fund" that wife doesn't care about, she just wants my work check ;) I don't make a lot in the chalk biz (that's why I didn't quit my day job in the insurance biz) But I have no problem putting all the profits back into pool.

Not trying to post a resume, but just so you know I'm not a guy who just showed up at the local HS and said "hey, I wanna teach some young boys and girls pool". :eek:

This is very generous of you, both financially and with your time. My high school golf coach I mentioned was a retired gentleman who volunteered with the school. I hope that this works out and becomes a local success. Perhaps others would follow suit and do the same. Please make a thread if this comes to fruition, I'd love to hear more about it.

chefjeff
08-18-2017, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
Taxpayers cover most of those costs for the sports that city councils "approve."

Pool?..eh, not only don't they get money from the tax pool to build giant ballparks in great locations with all the equipment and coaches and stuff needed--nah, that money is used AGAINST pool, with zoning, age restrictions, licensing, etc. etc. etc.


Jeff Livingston


It must be difficult living such an oppressed life. Seriously, there are better forums to spew your crap.

I'm sorry, did you leave your argument somewhere else?

Why do you call facts, "crap"? Or is it you just don't like 'em, so you vented?


Jeff Livingston


PS Thanks for allowing me an opp to post it again.

chefjeff
08-21-2017, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
It must be difficult living such an oppressed life. Seriously, there are better forums to spew your crap.



I'm sorry, did you leave your argument somewhere else?

Why do you call facts, "crap"? Or is it you just don't like 'em, so you vented?


Jeff Livingston


PS Thanks for allowing me an opp to post it again.

To add to the facts, in Texas the govt is spending $72 MILLION on ONE fuggin' High Skool stadium!!!!!!

new $72 million high school football stadium is ready for kickoff this season in Katy, Texas.

The 12,000 seat Legacy Stadium is the most expensive high school football stadium ever built and will be shared by eight local high schools. The stadium was voted on and paid for by taxpayers in the area, according to NBC News.

The full report on Katyís new high school football stadium from NBC Nightly News can be watched below:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/take-look-this-72m-high-school-football-stadium-katy-texas/5mZaadSIfoKGpHqnCMTiLP/



Nah, that has nothing to do with pool being the black sheep of zoning boards, skool boards, and city councils. Pool gets its share: forced closings, age controls, licenses, taxes, zonings, signage, and on and on and some brave owners survive in spite of those govt-caused disadvantages.

$72 MILLION.

Half of that is what saved the whole bowling industry! ONE stadium for high skool football. $72 MILLION.

Where else would be a better place to post this, so I can go there and post this? Thanks.


Jeff Livingston

ChicagoRJ
08-21-2017, 12:05 PM
To add to the facts, in Texas the govt is spending $72 MILLION on ONE fuggin' High Skool stadium!!!!!!

Jeff Livingston


That's a lot of moola for 5 games a year ;) But, at least they are finally pooling resources and building one stadium for multiple schools. That's logic that befuddled them in the past.

But it still seems like a lot of moola to me

barrymuch90
08-21-2017, 03:53 PM
I'm 26 years old. When I was in highschool (all boys Catholic mind you) I was working in the local pool room by 17. I was pretty popular in school and decided to start a "billiards club". All I needed to start a club was get a teacher to moderate n that was the easy part. It consisted of meeting at the poolroom for a few hours of practice and the owner through in a drink n a hotdog or chips for 10$ each. Eventually I ran a single elimination tournament. Even though there was some teachers and administrators resisting, I showed them there was no alchohol n the room didn't actually open til 5 so it would just be the students n the moderator. I even got a local shortstop to come to one meet n offer lessons n do some trickshots n cool exhibition type stuff. Unfortunately the room closed after my senior year n I was basically doing all the organizing so no one kept it goin by I'm living proof this can be done if you go about it the right way. I was amazed how much buzz it started I was constantly getting asked about it n kids really were exposed to pool in a whole new way. I think most of them never knew about a poolroom n just played in a friends dads basement. The moral is it was great in the short term n I was just trying to help out the room I worked for n have some college application highlights but I learned real quick that everyone loves pool and if it's portrayed in the right way it can be very popular. If there was an organization that would help schools start these programs I'm sure pool would double in popularity within 10 years in America. Who knows maybe this is my calling n I'll be the guy to start it

Cory in DC
08-21-2017, 07:11 PM
If you've ever been to Katy, you'd find that $72 million totally believable. Katy is football crazy.

But not one good poolhall in the area!



To add to the facts, in Texas the govt is spending $72 MILLION on ONE fuggin' High Skool stadium!!!!!!



http://www.ajc.com/sports/take-look-this-72m-high-school-football-stadium-katy-texas/5mZaadSIfoKGpHqnCMTiLP/


(snip)

Jeff Livingston

chefjeff
08-22-2017, 05:20 AM
If you've ever been to Katy, you'd find that $72 million totally believable. Katy is football crazy.

But not one good poolhall in the area!

There's no money left for such things! It's called opportunity costs (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=opportunity+costs&bext=wcr&atb=v76-1&ia=web): if you spend a dollar on x, you can no longer spend it on y.


Jeff Livingston

9ballhasbeen
08-22-2017, 12:56 PM
Letís be very clear here, the BCA is a for profit trade show organization. They offer very little value to the game, and dare I say the industry. They have gone so far as to compete with their own members with their EXPO magazine competing with BCA members Billiards Digest, Pool & Billiard, and Professor Q-Ball for advertising dollars. They look to the (non profit and non-funded) BEF to drive youth pool and have made no effort to grow the game in recent years.

What I believe we are crying out for here is something akin to the USGA (golf). The USGA promotes golf and itís positive attributes, produces the US Open and governs the sport (defining the rules and regulations for the game).

Letís be honest here, we can barely get any sort of unified rules for a league, let alone from event to event. Anytime I go to a tournament Ė*amateur or pro there is a different set of rulesÖ

Iíll close with this, the BCA most likely isnít the answer. We need a non-profit, professionally run, USPBA (US Pocket Billiards Association).

JAM
08-22-2017, 01:45 PM
If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

The BCA organization is responsible for professional pool. They are the governing body of professional pool in North America.

They need to change their name from Billiard Congress of America to Billiards Industry Vendors of America if they want to continue to exist as an organization. They do nothing -- I repeat NOTHING -- for professional pool, and it is their duty and obligation to do so. It is a damn shame what they have done.:mad:

Joe_Jaguar
08-22-2017, 02:58 PM
Letís be very clear here, the BCA is a for profit trade show organization. They offer very little value to the game, and dare I say the industry. They have gone so far as to compete with their own members with their EXPO magazine competing with BCA members Billiards Digest, Pool & Billiard, and Professor Q-Ball for advertising dollars. They look to the (non profit and non-funded) BEF to drive youth pool and have made no effort to grow the game in recent years.

What I believe we are crying out for here is something akin to the USGA (golf). The USGA promotes golf and itís positive attributes, produces the US Open and governs the sport (defining the rules and regulations for the game).

Letís be honest here, we can barely get any sort of unified rules for a league, let alone from event to event. Anytime I go to a tournament Ė*amateur or pro there is a different set of rulesÖ

Iíll close with this, the BCA most likely isnít the answer. We need a non-profit, professionally run, USPBA (US Pocket Billiards Association).

So the Oz of CSI is on the BCA Board. What does he do?! :rolleyes:

jasonlaus
08-22-2017, 03:15 PM
Most schools have multiple sports played on their football fields. This includes: Football, Soccer, Girls Soccer, Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Track-and-Field, etc.. On top of that, most schools use these fields for PE most of the year. They are also able to have multiple sports practice on the same fields because practice doesn't require the entire field all of the time.

Many of those sports generally charge an admission fee which helps to cover the costs associated. I think we know how charging for pool tourneys works out.

My school(assholes) woildnt allow anybody who wasnt a jock to set foot on the grass for any reason. Any of you care to bet how fast my fat ass can run a mile? I'LL Be 47 on sept 23, make your bets.
Jason

mvp
08-22-2017, 03:26 PM
I'd like to see a huge organization like the APA take over, have the regular handicapped system that we know, graduate and become advanced and them possibly pro. so in my pool world apa leagues and nationals would be untouched/unchanged . Then have a tournament tour for advanced players along side of a pro tournament spread around the country Any advanced or pro would not be eligible for league nor would league players be eligible for tourneys outside of league. All three would require paid sanction dues varying in price. there could be requirements for cashing in nationals at a 7 level to become advanced and so on becoming a pro.

Joe_Jaguar
08-22-2017, 04:14 PM
i'd like to see a huge organization like the apa take over, have the regular handicapped system that we know, graduate and become advanced and them possibly pro. So in my pool world apa leagues and nationals would be untouched/unchanged . Then have a tournament tour for advanced players along side of a pro tournament spread around the country any advanced or pro would not be eligible for league nor would league players be eligible for tourneys outside of league. All three would require paid sanction dues varying in price. There could be requirements for cashing in nationals at a 7 level to become advanced and so on becoming a pro.

. .
468090

Ekojasiloop
08-22-2017, 07:53 PM
Letís be very clear here, the BCA is a for profit trade show organization. They offer very little value to the game, and dare I say the industry. They have gone so far as to compete with their own members with their EXPO magazine competing with BCA members Billiards Digest, Pool & Billiard, and Professor Q-Ball for advertising dollars. They look to the (non profit and non-funded) BEF to drive youth pool and have made no effort to grow the game in recent years.

What I believe we are crying out for here is something akin to the USGA (golf). The USGA promotes golf and itís positive attributes, produces the US Open and governs the sport (defining the rules and regulations for the game).

Letís be honest here, we can barely get any sort of unified rules for a league, let alone from event to event. Anytime I go to a tournament Ė*amateur or pro there is a different set of rulesÖ

Iíll close with this, the BCA most likely isnít the answer. We need a non-profit, professionally run, USPBA (US Pocket Billiards Association).

That's a nice post. I don't have too much of a problem with them myself, they are just a business, as you pointed out.

My major beef is with actual league players I suppose. Let's really dissect this. If you want to play two or three times a week, and are willing to spend money to do so, why would you not want to put the money into local tournaments with equal playing fields for all? This encourages all players to play better, and promotes the game locally through these local events. In other words, money is going into pool players pockets rather than some rich asshole's.

I know people enjoy leagues, and I do respect that. I really do. But, I think all leagues are a detriment to pool. They don't promote improvement, nothing is given back, and all the money is going out (as opposed to staying within the pool community). It's lose lose.

I genuinely respect those who will disagree with me, but at the same time I really feel if each league community got replaced instead with one guy that was willing to give some time to the game for the better good, a much better system of tournaments that promote the game while keeping the funds within the community would exist.

ChicagoRJ
08-22-2017, 08:07 PM
That's a nice post. I don't have too much of a problem with them myself, they are just a business, as you pointed out.

My major beef is with actual league players I suppose. Let's really dissect this. If you want to play two or three times a week, and are willing to spend money to do so, why would you not want to put the money into local tournaments with equal playing fields for all? This encourages all players to play better, and promotes the game locally through these local events. In other words, money is going into pool players pockets rather than some rich asshole's.

I know people enjoy leagues, and I do respect that. I really do. But, I think all leagues are a detriment to pool. They don't promote improvement, nothing is given back, and all the money is going out (as opposed to staying within the pool community). It's lose lose.

I genuinely respect those who will disagree with me, but at the same time I really feel if each league community got replaced instead with one guy that was willing to give some time to the game for the better good, a much better system of tournaments that promote the game while keeping the funds within the community would exist.


No offense, but league players do NOT owe anyone anything. Just like Softball players do not owe MLB anything. THey play a recreational game for their enjoyment. If Pro Pool and the various organizations can't get their act together, don't attack the folks who are actually keeping pool alive.

Without league players, pool would be removed from life support and be officially declared dead. 300K plus folks playing and spending money on pool can't be bad, can it ?

JAM
08-23-2017, 01:36 AM
No offense, but league players do NOT owe anyone anything. Just like Softball players do not owe MLB anything. THey play a recreational game for their enjoyment. If Pro Pool and the various organizations can't get their act together, don't attack the folks who are actually keeping pool alive.

Without league players, pool would be removed from life support and be officially declared dead. 300K folks playing and spending money on pool can't be bad, can it ?

I agree with this 100 percent!

Poolplaya9
08-23-2017, 02:40 AM
That's a nice post. I don't have too much of a problem with them myself, they are just a business, as you pointed out.

My major beef is with actual league players I suppose. Let's really dissect this. If you want to play two or three times a week, and are willing to spend money to do so, why would you not want to put the money into local tournaments with equal playing fields for all? This encourages all players to play better, and promotes the game locally through these local events. In other words, money is going into pool players pockets rather than some rich asshole's.

I know people enjoy leagues, and I do respect that. I really do. But, I think all leagues are a detriment to pool. They don't promote improvement, nothing is given back, and all the money is going out (as opposed to staying within the pool community). It's lose lose.

I genuinely respect those who will disagree with me, but at the same time I really feel if each league community got replaced instead with one guy that was willing to give some time to the game for the better good, a much better system of tournaments that promote the game while keeping the funds within the community would exist.

We have been through this before in other threads. The problem is that you are still trying to impose the way you value and enjoy pool onto everybody else, as if there can't be any other way to enjoy pool, or nobody else has a right to their own preferences for how they enjoy pool. Because of your incredible bias all that you can see is that everybody should be supporting supporting your version of pool that you prefer and value, and that only your version is worthwhile. Because serious competitive tournament pool is the only kind of pool that you value, everybody else must be wrong if they aren't supporting your version. If you give all this some serious thought surely you can see how narcissistic, arrogant, unfair, and illogical your viewpoint is.

Some people care about pool only to the extent that it is something to do while they are drinking. If pool tables didn't exist they would be playing darts, or shuffleboard, or whatever else to occupy their time while drinking.

For some people pool is just an excuse to get out of the house and to be around other people and to socialize.

For some people pool is about the fun involved in playing. They don't even care much if they win or lose. The value to them is just in the fun of playing.

For some people pool is about competition, and trying to find out where you are in the pecking order, and trying to be better than others and to dominate them as much as possible. Though they may not consciously realize it, for many of the people in this group a lot of it is about ego, and seeking to stroke and build your own ego. You sound like you are mostly in this competitive type player group.

For some people pool is about money, period. The game isn't worth playing if there isn't money on the line. It isn't worth playing for competition, for fun, or for anything else. It's only about the money. They may not even like the game. Heck, they might even hate it.

For some people it can be about more than one of these things, like for example it could be about socializing, the fun of it, competition, and drinking in equal parts for example. Lots of league players probably fall into this or a similar group.

Bottom line is that different aspects of pool are enjoyable to different people. We don't all always value the game the same way, or get our enjoyment and pleasure from it in the same ways or for the same reasons. You have got to stop looking at it as if there is no way to enjoy the game other than the way that you do, or that even if there are other ways to enjoy it that people should have to enjoy it the same way and for the same reasons that you do and that they shouldn't get to have their own personal preferences. League players or anybody else are not hurting pool. They just aren't supporting the type of pool that you happen to most enjoy, and that's your problem, not theirs. They don't owe it to you to support what you like instead of what they like. They aren't "killing pool". They just aren't into the type of pool that you are, and it is perfectly ok for them to have their own preferences for the type of pool they like just like you have yours.

If you still aren't quite getting it then consider this. Somewhere there is a guy sitting there saying "that Ekojasiloop is an idiot who isn't supporting pool because he won't quit his job and play full time so he can get as good as possible. Pool is only worth playing if you are giving it 100% which means not working. Because Ekojasiloop and the others like him won't do this we don't get to have as many people on the pro tour and the people like him are what is killing pool because they won't quit their job and actually dedicate themselves to it." Is this guy right?

Somewhere else there is another guy sitting there say "that damn Ekojasiloop is an idiot. Pool is about the pure fun and enjoyment of playing. He is missing out by having to have it be about competition. People like him that can't just play for the fun and love of the sport are what is killing pool." Is this guy right?

The answer is that neither guy is right. You just aren't supporting the type of pool that they happen to prefer and value. You just value pool differently than they do. They are just trying to impose their values on you, as if you shouldn't be able to have your own, just like the way that you have been trying to impose the way you value pool onto league players and others as if they shouldn't be able to have their own preferences for how they enjoy and value pool.

mrknight411
08-23-2017, 03:02 AM
How is it that pool is good enough for the Boys Club, but not acceptable in formal educational institutions? I missed that part of history. Maybe pool can promoted as an acceptable form of "extra curricular activity" in HS.

mrknight411
08-23-2017, 03:19 AM
I paid $15 in "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in one pool hall, and then I had to pay another $15 "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in another pool hall. Ok, that's my only complaint about BCA. I don't have any input about BCA ignoring professional pool, but I do wonder what ever happened to the big money matches.

chefjeff
08-23-2017, 05:43 AM
That's a nice post. I don't have too much of a problem with them myself, they are just a business, as you pointed out.

My major beef is with actual league players I suppose. Let's really dissect this. If you want to play two or three times a week, and are willing to spend money to do so, why would you not want to put the money into local tournaments with equal playing fields for all? (snip).

You value some of their money going to the pros; they don't. And it's THEIR money, not yours.

Value is subjective, not objective, fyi.

If anyone wants to get some money from the league players, offer them something each of them actually wants in exchange for his money.

Bless the league players, the only successful aspect of pool, it seems.\


Jeff Livingston

ChicagoRJ
08-23-2017, 05:58 AM
How is it that pool is good enough for the Boys Club, but not acceptable in formal educational institutions? I missed that part of history. Maybe pool can promoted as an acceptable form of "extra curricular activity" in HS.

My thoughts exactly, and I will use your example of the "Boys Club" as a great example. I was not aware of that, but the more ammo, the better. If I can get it to one HS in the area, I think it will grow quickly.

9ballhasbeen
08-23-2017, 07:18 AM
So the Oz of CSI is on the BCA Board. What does he do?! :rolleyes:

Ozzy is a top notch person and works hard for CSI and the game. It is my understanding that the board advises more than anything else. Board members aren't compensated financially and each of them comes from a different subset in the industry, i.e. leagues, manufacturing, retail, pool hals.

cajunfats
08-23-2017, 08:15 AM
I paid $15 in "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in one pool hall, and then I had to pay another $15 "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in another pool hall. Ok, that's my only complaint about BCA. I don't have any input about BCA ignoring professional pool, but I do wonder what ever happened to the big money matches.
In the "old" BCA League System, if you sanctioned in one league, you were sanctioned in any BCA League. You merely had to pay any local fees that were collected by the league operator.
I am not aware of the requirements of the "new" BCAPL in regards to sanctioning or membership.
I have input regarding the current Trade Association and Pro Pool, but I'll reserve that for another thread and time.
Enjoy playing in your league and good luck developing your 9 Ball Skills.

P.S. Long ago, I put the OGIPUS REX in my sig line, is a tongue in cheek reference to the whole issue of "who" is the official governing body of pool in the United States.
OGIPUS REX-Official Governing Institute for Pool in the United States...of which I have declared myself...King. LOL.

cardiac kid
08-23-2017, 09:35 AM
In the "old" BCA League System, if you sanctioned in one league, you were sanctioned in any BCA League. You merely had to pay any local fees that were collected by the league operator. I am not aware of the requirements of the "new" BCAPL in regards to sanctioning or membership.

Fats,

For several years, BCAPL allowed a player to pay one sanction fee in their primary league. They could then play in other BCAPL leagues and the $15 fee was sufficient. For the past few years, BCAPL requires a player to pay a sanction fee for each league whose league number is not the same. The league here in Rochester is #669. The league I play in in Vegas is #769. You would think with the incredible computer system CSI uses they could figure out I'm the same player in each league and allow me to pay once. Oh well.

Lyn

cajunfats
08-23-2017, 09:50 AM
Fats,

For several years, BCAPL allowed a player to pay one sanction fee in their primary league. They could then play in other BCAPL leagues and the $15 fee was sufficient. For the past few years, BCAPL requires a player to pay a sanction fee for each league whose league number is not the same. The league here in Rochester is #669. The league I play in in Vegas is #769. You would think with the incredible computer system CSI uses they could figure out I'm the same player in each league and allow me to pay once. Oh well.

Lyn Lyn, thank you for the explanation. I agree, with bar coding and other application technologies, you'd think they could have you assigned a player specific number and you use it everywhere you play. Especially handy for Snowbirds who Summer North and Winter elsewhere. Thanks again for the clarification.

Carl

jburkm002
08-24-2017, 10:07 AM
Can someone define professional pool?

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Tony_in_MD
08-24-2017, 10:30 AM
The opposite of amateur pool.

:grin:

Can someone define professional pool?

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KissedOut
08-24-2017, 10:43 AM
Just because it's a game doesn't mean valuable learning can't be involved. Many things could be taught with and on a pool table


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Why stop there? We could do some great teaching of probability by setting up casinos in schools.

BmoreMoney
08-24-2017, 11:50 AM
How many different, "organizations", have the players tried to rally under? Have they run out of acronyms yet?

Pool is a very individual sport with one tournament per year, in the Mosconi Cup, that forces them to unite for a few days of play. Scotch Doubles tournaments might be the only other notable exception.

Because of this nature it's hard to get people who don't intrinsically trust others to get together and work together. Look at the uproar over the WPA fines. But that is what's needed; a framework that everyone adheres to. It goes against their grain.

That is not a bad thing either, it's just the nature of the beast. A beast that has to be tamed or nothing will change. Darren is using 8-ball in his events which could bring about more of an audience than 9-ball and 10-ball.

Golfer's play golf. They don't play a completely different game than amateurs. They use the black tees to make it harder, and have more difficult pin placements. Pool can do the same thing: standardize the equipment (everyone plays on a 9') but make the pockets harder (facings and smaller size). If you change the game you lose the audience. So far that's all that's ever been done; random games, random tables, random pocket sizes. It's no wonder no amateur can follow it.

I actually think the variety of games, tables, etc is a huge plus. Just like all of us on here , not everyone likes the same game so some variety is good. No, these gamessages are not hard to figure out for the general public either as someone saod. I'd like to believe most everybody can figure out the rules and basics in like 10 Mims or so, and the nuances not too too long afterward.

If anyone wants to liken it to other sports let's take a quick look : tennis has what 3 playing surfaces? Nascar has different size and style tracks. Golf is even a good example with all the different courses and layouts. I think the variety in tables and games make it more interesting and exciting and will keep more folks interested for longer than if everything was the same - kinda like bowling. Now that brings up and interesting question / observarion.

So bowling is supposed to be in much better shape than pool right? They do have a tour, better prize money and some tv. I'd venture to say that amateur / recreational bowlers probably number very close to the same for pool players ( leagues and what not ). So why the different results? That's the crux of this and Jam hit it pretty good. Lack of leadership / promotion, and unity. Imo, those three things are the problem. With those I'm sure pool could be at least as big as bowling and probably much bigger.

hang-the-9
08-24-2017, 01:38 PM
I paid $15 in "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in one pool hall, and then I had to pay another $15 "membership fee" to play BCA 9 Ball in another pool hall. Ok, that's my only complaint about BCA. I don't have any input about BCA ignoring professional pool, but I do wonder what ever happened to the big money matches.

The BCA pool league is not the BCA this is about. BCAPL is part of CSI and a CSI associate membership should be enough to quality to play in all CSI events that are not specific to their team leagues.

CSI Membership
We recognize that many people live in an area that does not offer a BCAPL league or they simply cannot make the commitment to weekly league play. Therefore, we have created the "CSI Membership" as an avenue to qualify those people for BCAPL singles and scotch doubles events. Please note that this does not qualify players for team events.

CSI Membership Benefits:
Eligibility for the BCAPL National Championships (singles and scotch doubles only)
Eligibility for select BCAPL state and regional events
Digital copy of "The Official Rules of CueSports International" (PDF, e-book, and Mobile versions)
Exclusive members only discounts - click here to learn more
Personalized membership card
Full-time national office support (M-F 9am-5pm Pacific Time)

Ghosst
08-25-2017, 05:33 AM
No, these gamessages are not hard to figure out for the general public either as someone saod. I'd like to believe most everybody can figure out the rules and basics in like 10 Mims or so, and the nuances not too too long afterward.

If anyone wants to liken it to other sports let's take a quick look ...

So bowling is supposed to be in much better shape than pool right? I'd venture to say that amateur / recreational bowlers probably number very close to the same for pool players ( leagues and what not ). So why the different results? That's the crux of this and Jam hit it pretty good. Lack of leadership / promotion, and unity.

I've honestly watched a lot of players groan and say they don't care about 9-ball. Even if it's the only thing on television - the Mosconi Cup - it's not what they play and they walk away. It has nothing to do with my personal opinion whatsoever. I'm just using my eyes and ears.

As far as sizes - great, amateurs play on 7' tables because that's what fits in a bar. The APA had a good comment on a YouTube video about why they keep using Valley tables - it's what people are used to. It's not a slight against Diamond either in what I read. It makes sense. Pros should not be competing in that arena; they're just too good. There needs to be some kind of separation between them and league players.

Even I'm guilty of seeing pros on a barbox and changing the channel. It holds no interest for me to watch them run out like water. Watching someone run out on 4.125" pockets on a 9' does hold an interest because it's different than what I can see at the poolhall where there are at least 10 players locally that can run a short set on a 7'.

I believe I touched on all of your points about an organization before you wrote them. If I missed something, please point it out. It may have been in my second post in this thread.

336Robin
08-25-2017, 05:39 AM
Even pool's fourth estate is crying for BCA to step up to the plate and resurrect pool in AMERICA. I mean, after all, the name of the organization is Billiards Congress of AMERICA.

According to a recent Billiards Digest Publisher's article, Mike Panozzo writes: "The BCA should lead the charge to develop a national team. It's part of their mission. And it would be a lift for the sport."

And then there's this: "The BCA isn’t flush with money, but it does have upwards of $1 million in its reserves. I understand the BCA has a fiduciary responsibility to its members to keep the association alive and sound. I also believe it has a responsibility to use some of that money to grow the sport."

A million dollars? What, are you kidding me? And they can't produce a frigging professional tournament?

Like the WPA, the BCA continues to fatten the pockets of its members while ignoring the very thing they are charged with supporting, and that is professional pool. After all, the BCA is the so-called governing body of professional pool. Well, what have you done for them lately, BCA?

Industry members continue to say the BCA is there for them, but I've got news for you, Industry Members, it ain't all about you. That's not what the purpose of the organization is supposed to be.

The WPA and the BCA are a joke. Somebody needs to be held accountable for the continued pocketing of funds while professional pool is dying a slow and ugly death in the United States.

If nothing is done, I suggest nobody support the WPA and BCA with membership dues and sanctioning fees. Screw 'em!

Read more here about what can be done to promote professional pool: Battle Cry (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/showblogentry.php?id=333).

At this point I haven't read this thread but will say this:

If you had half a million in the stock market.."in a decent mutual fund", "lets say from memberships of different kinds and levels" you could earn off interest enough to fund a pro tour.

If the capital of that money were never dipped into, that fund would grow and pool would have an inexhaustible fund to promote the sport.

Eventually that fund would grow larger and pool would also be larger. It would require a 5013c organization that could offer its members tax deductible contributions.