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View Full Version : Call the hit: Me vs Ghost


iusedtoberich
10-09-2017, 04:30 PM
Call the hit. What say you?

https://youtu.be/asQ9aVfqiXA

sixpack
10-09-2017, 04:32 PM
Call the hit. What say you?

https://youtu.be/asQ9aVfqiXA

Good hit to me.

barrymuch90
10-09-2017, 04:33 PM
Looks funny for sure I'd say almost too close to call foul w naked eye but I believe had u slow mo d it there's a good possibility it was bad

cubswin
10-09-2017, 04:37 PM
The way the 3 came off, I'd say it was a foul. However not sure I could have called it a foul if I was watching the hit without recording it on my phone. Bang/bang hit.

benny-the-blade
10-09-2017, 04:41 PM
Tough call for sure, but I think it was a foul (barely).

9andout
10-09-2017, 04:42 PM
I watched a few times.
I'm calling bad hit.
Would definitely be better to be standing there.
Good post.

Neil
10-09-2017, 04:43 PM
That is a tough one. It goes to the shooter.

DrCue'sProtege
10-09-2017, 04:45 PM
No foul there.

But geez man, when you make your videos - PUT SOME DANG SHOES ON!!!!!

jazznpool
10-09-2017, 04:48 PM
Call the hit. What say you?

https://youtu.be/asQ9aVfqiXA

Looked okay but close.

Cuebuddy
10-09-2017, 05:30 PM
I would side with Neil and say the tie goes to the runner but I'm thinking with the phone camera next to the shot there might be a second video soon.:cool:

bbb
10-09-2017, 05:39 PM
bad hit to me

SARDiver
10-09-2017, 05:45 PM
Looked like a bad hit, but took slo-mo to see it.

BeiberLvr
10-09-2017, 05:47 PM
Watched it at 0.25 speed and it's a clear foul, but not by my much.

If this were an actual match it would likely go to the shooter since it's so close.

Cornerman
10-09-2017, 05:49 PM
I'll call a foul. But I'd have to stand closer and check tangents before you shot.

And no, it doesnt "go to the shooter" if you had a ref watch the shot.

HouTexPlayer
10-09-2017, 05:54 PM
Watched it in slow motion and it looks like a bad hit to me. It's the kind of hit you need a ref standing over to make the call in real time though.

mikewhy
10-09-2017, 06:00 PM
No foul there.

But geez man, when you make your videos - PUT SOME DANG SHOES ON!!!!!Heh. My dress code will leave you choking and heaving. Shoes...

Nick B
10-09-2017, 06:00 PM
The cue ball knows.

Cue ball going forward tells me it was good. Nine First would have made it stun and double hit the Three. Not go forward.

iba7467
10-09-2017, 06:04 PM
Bad hit. I paused the video a few times hoping to catch impact, but did not want to take more than a couple minutes. Here is the closest I caught to impact. It is on track for the three.

Brookeland Bill
10-09-2017, 06:05 PM
Good hit. Id give it to you. Then Id break both of your arms.

SARDiver
10-09-2017, 06:11 PM
The cue ball knows.

Cue ball going forward tells me it was good. Nine First would have made it stun and double hit the Three. Not go forward.

Not sure that could be the determining factor. If it hits the 9 and then hits the 3, wouldn't the stun line off of the 3 also send it forward?

Cory in DC
10-09-2017, 06:12 PM
The way the 3 came off, I'd say it was a foul. However not sure I could have called it a foul if I was watching the hit without recording it on my phone. Bang/bang hit.

That was my initial thought, but on a thin enough hit on the 3, the 3-ball action could be the result of a second contact with the 3. I.e., CB could graze the 3, hit the 9, and hit the 3 again from below and send the 3 uptable.

I can't say for sure, so tie goes to the shooter. Good hit. More precisely, a good enough hit.

mikewhy
10-09-2017, 06:18 PM
Watch it twice, each time with the expectation in mind. It's clearly a bad hit. With that in mind as you watch, the 9 moves and only then does the cue move as you'd expect and hit the 3.

PS: ... And then watch it a few more times and vacillate. I can't call it even after watching 10 more times.

iusedtoberich
10-09-2017, 06:26 PM
Well I'm glad this thread has produced good discussion! ha ha.

Most of you are judging the hit based on the youtube 1/8th speed slow motion of the video. What about if you only watch it in full speed? What about the paths of the balls?

Neil
10-09-2017, 06:31 PM
Bad hit. I paused the video a few times hoping to catch impact, but did not want to take more than a couple minutes. Here is the closest I caught to impact. It is on track for the three.

That pic was also the closest I could get at 1/4 speed. This is one of those rare shots where the tangent lines off each ball put the cb going in the same direction. Which is what makes it so hard to tell the actual hit.

Maybe someone can do a frame by frame look at it. (I forgot how to do that.:o)

jay helfert
10-09-2017, 07:41 PM
Nearly impossible to call from that angle. Surprisingly I see a lot of refs try to call shots from places like that. Here is a little tidbit for you would be refs - Stand where the cue ball is coming directly toward you to make a call like this. It is a fallacy to think that you must stand out of a shooters line of sight. Just stand still and watch closely and you can make the right call. In this case I would be standing close to the second diamond and looking directly at the cue ball's path toward the three/nine. I would want to be as close as possible to the hit, even standing over the balls and looking down on them at the moment of contact. In this particular case I think the player was successful in playing the billiard on the nine ball to win the game.

iusedtoberich
10-09-2017, 08:04 PM
When I was eying up the shot, I knew it was going to be super, super close. I was not even sure I could get deep enough for the carom to go. It was not laying right, even with a lot of spin on the CB. That's why the 9 hit the rail before the pocket.

I put my iPhone on the rail before taking the shot, and set it to slow motion at 240 frames per second. The overhead video from the first post was at 30 frames per second, and of course 10 feet away.

When I hit the shot, I thought it was good. It "felt" like I hit the 3 first. But when I looked at where the CB ended up, I said to myself it must have been bad if the CB went there. Then I went to check the phone.

Incidentally, at 240 frames per second, 1 frame before impact, neither ball was in motion, and the following frame both balls were in motion. So even at that frame rate, you can't determine which ball was hit first without some pool knowledge. Note, I'm talking about on my iMovie software, built into my iphone, where I can step frame by frame on the original source video file. I think youtube might cut out some frames.

Anyway, the youtube video is good enough to show what happened.

GOOD HIT:)

Slow Motion Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmS9cSBn95A

iusedtoberich
10-09-2017, 08:07 PM
That was my initial thought, but on a thin enough hit on the 3, the 3-ball action could be the result of a second contact with the 3. I.e., CB could graze the 3, hit the 9, and hit the 3 again from below and send the 3 uptable.

I can't say for sure, so tie goes to the shooter. Good hit. More precisely, a good enough hit.

You were exactly correct:thumbup:

Neil
10-09-2017, 08:13 PM
When I was eying up the shot, I knew it was going to be super, super close. I was not even sure I could get deep enough for the carom to go. It was not laying right, even with a lot of spin on the CB. That's why the 9 hit the rail before the pocket.

I put my iPhone on the rail before taking the shot, and set it to slow motion at 240 frames per second. The overhead video from the first post was at 30 frames per second, and of course 10 feet away.

When I hit the shot, I thought it was good. It "felt" like I hit the 3 first. But when I looked at where the CB ended up, I said to myself it must have been bad if the CB went there. Then I went to check the phone.

Incidentally, at 240 frames per second, 1 frame before impact, neither ball was in motion, and the following frame both balls were in motion. So even at that frame rate, you can't determine which ball was hit first without some pool knowledge. Note, I'm talking about on my iMovie software, built into my iphone, where I can step frame by frame on the original source video file. I think youtube might cut out some frames.

Anyway, the youtube video is good enough to show what happened.

GOOD HIT:)

Slow Motion Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmS9cSBn95A

Watching that video at 1/4 speed, you hit the three first. And the cb did hit the three twice. Good hit.

clydeNbonnie
10-09-2017, 08:17 PM
I think it's a good hit. The reason the 3 goes that way is because it came off the rail and hit the cue ball again.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

Cory in DC
10-09-2017, 08:26 PM
You were exactly correct:thumbup:

When I Youtube slomo your already slow mo video, I see the 3 ball hit a microsecond (or less) before it hits the 9-ball. And yes on the double-kiss on the 3, too--my naked eye is pretty good!

iusedtoberich
10-09-2017, 09:08 PM
When I Youtube slomo your already slow mo video, I see the 3 ball hit a microsecond (or less) before it hits the 9-ball. And yes on the double-kiss on the 3, too--my naked eye is pretty good!

I promise you had an optical delusion;)

Here is the last video I made for you, ha ha. Time to rest up for the morning day job...

https://youtu.be/i-Dg-jZIddo

Cory in DC
10-09-2017, 09:30 PM
I promise you had an optical delusion;)

Here is the last video I made for you, ha ha. Time to rest up for the morning day job...

https://youtu.be/i-Dg-jZIddo

At about 40 seconds in your video, it looks like the 3-ball moved a hair farther than the 9 ball. Since the angle of approach to the two balls was about the same, that would imply the 3 was hit first by a tiny amount. However, that could be an artifact of the camera angle.

I also find your perpendicular argument logical. Good hit!

The video and software are pretty cool, thanks for posting. Dr. Dave should be jealous!

In general, all calls that can only be resolved with frame-by-frame video should probably go to the shooter.

sixpack
10-09-2017, 10:33 PM
I promise you had an optical delusion;)

Here is the last video I made for you, ha ha. Time to rest up for the morning day job...

https://youtu.be/i-Dg-jZIddo

I saw that full speed. :) saw the way it came off three then the 9 back into the three.

Johnny Rosato
10-10-2017, 03:10 AM
Call the hit. What say you?

https://youtu.be/asQ9aVfqiXA
Bad hit. I'll look at the video tomorrow!

marek
10-10-2017, 03:31 AM
Call the hit. What say you?

https://youtu.be/asQ9aVfqiXA

Very close call with choppy vid, but I would call good hit on that one after watching slowmo several times. And in real speed this is basically simultaneous hit so it goes to the shooter i guess..

Bob Jewett
10-10-2017, 07:53 AM
That was my initial thought, but on a thin enough hit on the 3, the 3-ball action could be the result of a second contact with the 3. I.e., CB could graze the 3, hit the 9, and hit the 3 again from below and send the 3 uptable.

I can't say for sure, so tie goes to the shooter. Good hit. More precisely, a good enough hit.
I agree with this. The shot is one of those that is legal if you barely feather the 3 before the nine and barely wiggle it and a foul if you barely miss the three going in and then hit it off the nine. Both will result in the same action on the balls.

Here's the rule:

27. SPLIT HITS
If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, it will be assumed that the legal target was struck first.


The video is not too useful except that it gives a pretty good idea of what a referee would have to deal with on the shot. If it had 10 times as many frames per second it might show fair/foul.

(Remember that "." and "," on YouTube do single-frame forward and back.)

JC
10-10-2017, 08:09 AM
Heh. My dress code will leave you choking and heaving. Shoes...

He used to have shoes back when he was rich.............

JC

Icon of Sin
10-10-2017, 08:21 AM
The way the 3 came off, I'd say it was a foul. However not sure I could have called it a foul if I was watching the hit without recording it on my phone. Bang/bang hit.

First glance I thought this.

Second Glance using frame by frame on youtube, I still think this. Looks as if you hit the 9 first and the 3 double kissed the cueball sending it in the opposite direction.

In real life though, shot goes to the shooter. I don't think many refs would straight up call that a foul.

Tennesseejoe
10-10-2017, 11:16 AM
Thanks for a great thread and the responses.

Tooler
10-10-2017, 11:37 AM
Better question is, did you get out...?

I say good hit. Only after slo-mo. Without it, I first said foul.

iusedtoberich
10-10-2017, 12:40 PM
Better question is, did you get out...?

I say good hit. Only after slo-mo. Without it, I first said foul.

Yes, I made the 9:)

No, the ghost beat me 7-3 this particular set.

Tooler
10-10-2017, 12:44 PM
Yes, I made the 9:)

No, the ghost beat me 7-3 this particular set.

Oh yeah....DUH

goettlicher
10-10-2017, 12:44 PM
Bad hit!

randyg

Poolplaya9
10-10-2017, 04:30 PM
I promise you had an optical delusion;)

Here is the last video I made for you, ha ha. Time to rest up for the morning day job...

https://youtu.be/i-Dg-jZIddo

I disagree with the conclusion you made in the video where you say that because the cue ball was heading toward the side rail after the initial collision with both balls that the shot must be good. I do agree with you that if the three had been hit first, the tangent line off the nine does put the cue ball heading toward the rail in the direction that we see. However, if the nine had been hit first, the tangent line would have been pointing to almost a full hit on the three ball and the the resulting tangent line from that impact would have put the cue ball following behind the three exactly on the same line that we see as well. Both cases would put the cue ball initially tracking nearly perpendicularly toward the side rail on the same line that we see (and the secondary hit on the rebounding three ball and resulting ball paths after that would have all been the same in both cases too).

This is one of those very rare occasions where as Bob said in post #36 all the resulting ball reactions are going to be about the same either way. Unless you have a video frame showing where one ball is moving while the other one has not yet moved (which was not the case here), then even your excellent videos with multiple angles, being very close to the hit, and having slow motion still don't settle the matter. This is a rare case where even after having excellent video to review closely you still have to fall back on a "tie goes to the runner" ruling because the video doesn't clear it up either and the ball paths are the same either way.

Black-Balled
10-10-2017, 05:22 PM
No foul there.

But geez man, when you make your videos - PUT SOME DANG SHOES ON!!!!!

Hay...don't you get all nutty bout that.

George fels says there's nothin better than pool at 2am in yer underwears.

Come on,you can level with us. We been knowing you for nearin on 2 decades.

We have tables at home we can play naked, right.

You're with me, guys? Right?

medallio
10-10-2017, 06:26 PM
Looks like a foul to me considering the angle the 3 takes

eastcoast_chris
10-10-2017, 07:11 PM
Good hit.... watching at 0.25 speed you see a simultaneous hit on both balls and then the 3 double hits the cue ball (which has followed through a bit) off the rail.... hence the reason it goes up table.

BUT, if I was watching/reffing the shot, I might call foul because of the direction the 3 went.

I don't think I'd try the shot in an actual game.

Poolplaya9
10-10-2017, 07:31 PM
We have tables at home we can play naked, right.

You're with me, guys? Right?

Lol maybe, but definitely not on one of those tables that has jagged metal edges somewhere on the edge trim or corner castings etc. That could be disastrous!

Poolplaya9
10-10-2017, 07:35 PM
Looks like a foul to me considering the angle the 3 takes

Good hit.... watching at 0.25 speed you see a simultaneous hit on both balls and then the 3 double hits the cue ball (which has followed through a bit) off the rail.... hence the reason it goes up table.

BUT, if I was watching/reffing the shot, I might call foul because of the direction the 3 went.
If you think it through carefully the 3 gets double hit and goes the exact same direction no matter which ball is hit first (as do all the other balls).

BeiberLvr
10-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Yes, I made the 9:)

No, the ghost beat me 7-3 this particular set.

You mean 7-2, right? :p