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supergreenman
10-11-2017, 01:59 PM
"VNEA rule question: Player breaks makes a ball, he wants to call a ball in the pocket to establish his objects balls and play a safe so he does not have to shoot again, is this legal?
Yes this is a perfectly legal shot, like any safety shot you are giving up the table to your opponent but you will have established your object balls. He does not have to shoot again!"



This was posted on the Leagues facebook page.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules, am I wrong?

lorider
10-11-2017, 02:03 PM
"VNEA rule question: Player breaks makes a ball, he wants to call a ball in the pocket to establish his objects balls and play a safe so he does not have to shoot again, is this legal?
Yes this is a perfectly legal shot, like any safety shot you are giving up the table to your opponent but you will have established your object balls. He does not have to shoot again!"



This was posted on the Leagues facebook page.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules, am I wrong?

Its legal in Napa. Never played vnea so I have no.idea..

sbpoolleague
10-11-2017, 02:33 PM
Its legal in Napa. Never played vnea so I have no.idea..

No it is not legal in NAPA nor in any other league.

From the NAPA 8-BALL RULES (http://www.napaleagues.com/naparules/?ball=8-ball)
9.6
SAFETY SHOT
On any shot after the break, for tactical reasons, a shooter may choose to pocket a "called" object ball into its proper pocket and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooter intends to play a safety by pocketing a "called" object ball into its proper pocket, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety", verbally, to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed. Calling a safety on the first shot after the break is legal; however, the table continues to remain open for the incoming shooter.

BRussell
10-11-2017, 03:51 PM
BCA pool league rules say no as well:

1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety. (AR p. 102)

IbeAnEngineer
10-11-2017, 05:16 PM
I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

The key in the above statement is in that the choice of group is determined when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot. Later on when they address legal shots the say the following about safeties.

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

So, it looks like in VNEA you can legally pocket a ball on an open table and call safe.

VNEA has a few rules that are different than BCA and some of the other leagues. For instance, in VNEA on an open table the 8ball is neutral and you can hit it first in a combination shot or carom to legally pocket a ball. Racking templates such as a magic rack are not allowed for use in Nationals. A bridge or other device cannot be used to perform a jump shot.

BillYards
10-11-2017, 06:53 PM
You cannot call a ball and a safety at the same time. Whichever you call last overrides and is the call.

Therefore, in the scenario described, after the safety, the table is open and the incoming player can shoot at either group of balls.

mrshifty
10-12-2017, 04:31 AM
You cannot call a ball and a safety at the same time. Whichever you call last overrides and is the call.

Therefore, in the scenario described, after the safety, the table is open and the incoming player can shoot at either group of balls.

While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

hang-the-9
10-12-2017, 05:08 AM
While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

That is open to too much abuse, odd thing to change from the normal rules. While it's a "legal" shot, you are not calling a pocket. If you call a "safe" you are not calling a pocket, you just happened to make a ball. Can you call two balls just in case the other goes in? Or call one ball in two pockets? If not, how can you call one ball but two shots for it? Someone there failed logic.

I thought only the APA had the right to change rules for the worse. I actually would prefer the rule the APA has where you can't call safe and pocket a ball to being able to both call a ball and call a safe on the same shot.

JohnnyOzone
10-12-2017, 09:50 AM
This is the kind of crap that happens when people who don't know what they are doing are in charge of something.
There is no way under the rules of VNEA or BCA (and obviously under APA as well, as stated) that this can be interpreted so. it's either a safety or a called ball - can't be both.

BRussell
10-12-2017, 11:00 AM
I played in a VNEA 9-ball league with a push-out rule that you can't touch an object ball with the cue ball on your push.

hang-the-9
10-12-2017, 11:46 AM
I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

The key in the above statement is in that the choice of group is determined when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot. Later on when they address legal shots the say the following about safeties.

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

So, it looks like in VNEA you can legally pocket a ball on an open table and call safe.

VNEA has a few rules that are different than BCA and some of the other leagues. For instance, in VNEA on an open table the 8ball is neutral and you can hit it first in a combination shot or carom to legally pocket a ball. Racking templates such as a magic rack are not allowed for use in Nationals. A bridge or other device cannot be used to perform a jump shot.

The rules in bold rule out calling a safe and establishing a group. They say you need to legally pocket a "called object ball", you are not calling an object ball, you are calling a safety and pocketing a ball, that is not the same thing. It is the same thing as making a ball into an uncalled pocket, which is why you can call a safe and give up the turn while making a ball. You did not "call a pocket" on the shot, therefore when you call a safe and make the ball, the ball went into an uncalled pocket, thus you give up your turn. If you are "calling the ball" to establish the group, you can't then also call a safe because one of those negates the other.

This is probably why the APA rules do not allow calling a safe and pocketing a ball, because they play slop 8 ball, so any ball going in, is a good shot for you and you keep shooting. No need to call a pocket, no need to call a safe, ball goes in, you made the shot. If you are playing called shot, you can't both call a safe and a shot because soon as you call the pocket, you made your object ball and keep shooting. Calling a safe you are NOT calling a pocket thus the ball going in is not a legally pocketed ball, and you give up your turn. A rule that would allow both just hurts my head in thinking about it, like trying to imagine infinity.

This rule is like saying "it's legal to drive over the speed limit now, but you will still get a ticket if caught".

tucson9ball
10-12-2017, 12:16 PM
No it is not legal in NAPA nor in any other league.

From the NAPA 8-BALL RULES (http://www.napaleagues.com/naparules/?ball=8-ball)
9.6
SAFETY SHOT
On any shot after the break, for tactical reasons, a shooter may choose to pocket a "called" object ball into its proper pocket and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooter intends to play a safety by pocketing a "called" object ball into its proper pocket, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety", verbally, to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed. Calling a safety on the first shot after the break is legal; however, the table continues to remain open for the incoming shooter.

^^^^^^^^^^That pretty much covers it^^^^^^^^^^^
A safety on an open table means the table will still be open.
Incoming player can shoot stripes or solids, gets his pick.

supergreenman
10-12-2017, 12:39 PM
^^^^^^^^^^That pretty much covers it^^^^^^^^^^^
A safety on an open table means the table will still be open.
Incoming player can shoot stripes or solids, gets his pick.

That's for NAPA not VNEA. After looking at the rules for VNEA I have to conclude that a called shot/safety on an open table is allowed.

hang-the-9
10-12-2017, 12:51 PM
That's for NAPA not VNEA. After looking at the rules for VNEA I have to conclude that a called shot/safety on an open table is allowed.

Read this part as quoted earlier by someone from their rules

"I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot."

The group selection is made after a "called" shot. You cannot call a shot and a safe at the same time, if you are calling a shot you made it and continue shooting. If you are calling a "safe" you are not calling a shot and when the ball falls, it's treated just like you made the ball in another pocket. A ball can't do two things, you can't call this pocket and then call another pocket and have both be a legal called shot if you make it in either one. There is a big difference between a "Legal shot" meaning one you did not foul on, and a "Legal Called shot" meaning you pocketed a ball you called and did not foul.

While some of the other rules are different from normal rules like being able to hit the 8 ball first on an open table, the rule that allows an object ball to behave in two different ways at once just does not make scene and is contradictory to the rules they set up in the first place. The rule that states how you pick your group is no different than any other rule in a called shot 8 ball game that uses world rules, I don't see where they state you can call a shot and play safe at the same time. Just pocketing a ball is not "calling the shot", it's the same thing as a ball going into an uncalled pocket, you give up your turn, but you did not make a called ball.

sbpoolleague
10-12-2017, 01:25 PM
While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

The whoever is instructing the VNEA refs is a total idiot

thehoneybadger
10-12-2017, 01:52 PM
VNEA

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.



“SAFETY” For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

easy-e
10-12-2017, 01:55 PM
VNEA

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.



“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

Are you implying that the highlighted lines contradict each other? There is a difference between "legally pocketing a ball" and a "legal shot".

thehoneybadger
10-12-2017, 02:00 PM
Are you implying that the highlighted lines contradict each other? There is a difference between "legally pocketing a ball" and a "legal shot".

No I play VNEA and between those statements there is a lot of confusion in the league and tourneys we play no one seems to have a clear answer. It seems everyone is just making their best guess

hang-the-9
10-12-2017, 03:00 PM
No I play VNEA and between those statements there is a lot of confusion in the league and tourneys we play no one seems to have a clear answer. It seems everyone is just making their best guess

I don't think there is much confusion, unless someone does not really understand how a safety shot in 8 ball works and just tries to interpret the rules on their own without any prior knowledge. Even then, the rule is pretty clear, you need to make a called shot after the break to establish your suit. A safe is not a "called shot", you are just pocketing a ball while giving up your turn precisely because it was NOT a called shot.

sbpoolleague
10-12-2017, 03:02 PM
Balls pocketed on a safety are illegally pocketed balls.

Always have been. Always will be.

It annoys me that most rule books don't explicitly say this. Would really clear up the confusion.

BRussell
10-12-2017, 03:56 PM
Balls pocketed on a safety are illegally pocketed balls.

Always have been. Always will be.

It annoys me that most rule books don't explicitly say this. Would really clear up the confusion.

Illegally pocketed? In leagues that count balls made, if you make your own ball on a safe it still counts as a point for you. And of course it’s very common in (league or amateur) 8-ball to make an opponent’s ball on a safety, like when one is blocking a pocket. Is that an illegally pocketed ball? “Illegally pocketed” sounds like a foul.

mrshifty
10-12-2017, 06:08 PM
I was playing in a tournament where someone did just this on an open table. I thought it was wrong, so I asked a friend of mine that is a certified VNEA ref. He had his opinion, but had never had it happen to him, so he e-mailed the head ref of the VNEA, who said that you could indeed select your group of balls by calling a ball in a pocket, and calling a safe on the same shot. I completely disagree with it, but that is the rules according to the head VNEA ref. Unless of course they have changed it in the last couple of years.

thehoneybadger
10-13-2017, 09:19 AM
I was playing in a tournament where someone did just this on an open table. I thought it was wrong, so I asked a friend of mine that is a certified VNEA ref. He had his opinion, but had never had it happen to him, so he e-mailed the head ref of the VNEA, who said that you could indeed select your group of balls by calling a ball in a pocket, and calling a safe on the same shot. I completely disagree with it, but that is the rules according to the head VNEA ref. Unless of course they have changed it in the last couple of years.

That's what I'm saying I've had it called both ways In VNEA tournament play

easy-e
10-13-2017, 09:54 AM
That's what I'm saying I've had it called both ways In VNEA tournament play

I agree with you that it needs to be better understood by the refs, but I also think that the rules are clear enough for me.

sbpoolleague
10-13-2017, 10:00 AM
Illegally pocketed? In leagues that count balls made, if you make your own ball on a safe it still counts as a point for you. And of course it’s very common in (league or amateur) 8-ball to make an opponent’s ball on a safety, like when one is blocking a pocket. Is that an illegally pocketed ball? “Illegally pocketed” sounds like a foul.

The BCAPL rules (which are by far the most complete pool rules in the world) has a good definition for "illegally pocketed ball"

Illegally Pocketed Ball
An object ball is illegally pocketed when:
a. a foul is committed on the shot in which the ball was pocketed;
b. in call shot games, a called ball goes into a pocket other than the called pocket;
c. it is defined as illegally pocketed by specific game rules;
d. in call shot games, a non-obvious shot that is not called.

So in 8-ball, a ball made on a safety is an illegally pocketed ball (not a foul unless another foul was committed), but it still counts for the shooter (ie. it does not get spotted and counts as a point for the shooter in leagues that count balls made).

Pelican1989
10-13-2017, 04:10 PM
i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??

hang-the-9
10-13-2017, 06:12 PM
PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid


In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

sbpoolleague
10-16-2017, 01:09 PM
In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

Obvious shots are, in almost all versions of 8-ball rules, not required to be called. THAT is why you call a safety. To give up your turn even though an obvious shot goes in.

easy-e
10-16-2017, 01:40 PM
i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??

Did you read the rules? You sound stupid. And arrogant.

Pelican1989
10-16-2017, 02:02 PM
In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

yes i understand that is the way it is in BCA and some other leagues

that doesn't imply thats how it is in all league tho right?

sbpoolleague
10-16-2017, 02:05 PM
i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??


Because BY DEFINITION, called shots and safety shots are mutually exclusive.

The only problems here are...

1. that the VNEA rules are way too thin and they do not include the definition of a called shot, and...

2. people like you that are can't understand the obvious

Dockter
10-16-2017, 02:10 PM
I was part of that thread and gave some pushback as I don't think that's how the rule was intended but then they shut down the post on me.

I confirmed with a local ref that this would be allowed basically because there is no rule saying it's not allowed.

My argument is I don't believe a safety is considered a legally pocketed ball but most disagreed. I was instructed that if I wanted to do so I would say "three ball in the corner, but I'm playing a safe" which seems crazy to me. I asked why in that case I can't say "3 ball in the corner and 8 in the side" as I'm legally pocketing both but that's when they closed the thread.

Dockter
10-16-2017, 02:11 PM
Because BY DEFINITION, called shots and safety shots are mutually exclusive.

The only problems here are...

1. that the VNEA rules are way too thin and they do not include the definition of a called shot, and...

2. idiots like you that are too stupid to understand the obvious

You must have read most of that thread as I kept using the 3 ball as an example lol. There is no way this is a known rule, as I've never seen it happen and this is a huge advantage to the breaker in my opinion.


Sorry, SB, I just noticed I quoted the wrong person.

Fore Rail
10-16-2017, 02:18 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880&highlight=vnea

BmoreMoney
10-16-2017, 02:33 PM
Perfect example why " Real Pool Players " look down on league players and don't think of it as Real Pool.

sbpoolleague
10-16-2017, 05:27 PM
The VNEA rules clearly have used the World Standardized Rules as a backbone, and unfortunately they trimmed too much and allowed confusion to set in. If I were running a VNEA league I would contact the head office and ask them to beef up their rule set.

The World Standardized Rules clearly state that you cannot call a ball on a safety shot.

Skippy27
10-17-2017, 05:06 PM
I actually would prefer the rule the APA has where you can't call safe and pocket a ball to being able to both call a ball and call a safe on the same shot.

What is this you speak of? Is this a masters thing as there is no calling Safe in APA 8 or 9 ball? I have not played Masters so I can't speak to the rules of that format.

Non-Masters, you can call a safe/defensive shot as a courtesy to your score keepers before you shoot, but if you make one of your balls, you keep shooting. You can even earn more than 1 defensive mark in an inning by doing such.

chefjeff
10-18-2017, 05:38 AM
While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

I asked those refs, at the State tourney, what they discussed at their pre-tourney meeting. She said, What meeting?...We don't have a meeting or discuss anything.

They don't even get together to discuss ANY of the rules of ANY of the procedures for determining those.

I was disappointed, to say the least.



Jeff Livingston

hang-the-9
10-18-2017, 05:53 AM
What is this you speak of? Is this a masters thing as there is no calling Safe in APA 8 or 9 ball? I have not played Masters so I can't speak to the rules of that format.

Non-Masters, you can call a safe/defensive shot as a courtesy to your score keepers before you shoot, but if you make one of your balls, you keep shooting. You can even earn more than 1 defensive mark in an inning by doing such.

You can call a safe in APA but if you make a ball, it's still your turn. In normal 8 ball rules and most other leagues you can call a safe and pocket a ball.

In this messed up VNEA rule I would prefer APA rules of not being able to pocket a ball on a safe vs being able to call both, call a pocket and call a safe on the same shot. If you called the pocket, you made your shot and you keep shooting. If you call a safe, even though you made a ball, you did not call a pocket so you give up your turn. Doing both is crazy talk.

I don't even see any confusion with the rules aside from the refs not being able to understand them. A "Legal Shot" is not the same thing as a "Legal Called Pocket" when it comes to figuring out if you made a ball or not. You can make a legal shot in many ways, you can only make a legal called shot in one way.

Island Drive
10-18-2017, 07:16 AM
"VNEA rule question: Player breaks makes a ball, he wants to call a ball in the pocket to establish his objects balls and play a safe so he does not have to shoot again, is this legal?
Yes this is a perfectly legal shot, like any safety shot you are giving up the table to your opponent but you will have established your object balls. He does not have to shoot again!"



This was posted on the Leagues facebook page.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules, am I wrong?

No, your not wrong. Every league, every 8 ball match in a local bar has different rules. Rules are often created under the heat of the moment when the cocktail/pool player/ego incident arrives, where the more dominate/local male/female... creates a rule to benefit their moment, to win that game. All leagues have different rules, often these rules are in place for the vendor not the sport, this is an area that will never be addressed across the board till the game becomes a true sport, supporting the game, not the politics of the moment. Cyclops balls are a good example of the vendor creep. But hey,it's a business and they have to look at the bottom line to be successful.

Skippy27
10-18-2017, 08:03 AM
No, your not wrong. Every league, every 8 ball match in a local bar has different rules. Rules are often created under the heat of the moment when the cocktail/pool player/ego incident arrives, where the more dominate/local male/female... creates a rule to benefit their moment, to win that game. All leagues have different rules, often these rules are in place for the vendor not the sport, this is an area that will never be addressed across the board till the game becomes a true sport, supporting the game, not the politics of the moment. Cyclops balls are a good example of the vendor creep. But hey,it's a business and they have to look at the bottom line to be successful.


Just a little over generalization and a lot wrong with your entire statement.

Island Drive
10-18-2017, 08:32 AM
Just a little over generalization and a lot wrong with your entire statement.

Please clarify.........I'm never always right, but love to learn from poor shot/word selection choices that I've made.