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View Full Version : Should pros be allowed to rob amateur events?


JC
10-15-2017, 10:34 AM
Is this good for the sport?

Here in the Northwest we have the nicest pro you would ever want to meet. He takes home a lot of the cheese from day job player events.

Is this right? If not where do you draw the line?

JC

mvp
10-15-2017, 10:59 AM
In my opinion it should just be pool, the best guy wins. Yes they should be able to play

poolscholar
10-15-2017, 11:23 AM
They should not, however in the pool world 'professional' is meaningless.

See golf...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_golfer

Mark Griffin
10-15-2017, 11:29 AM
This is one of the reasons why FargoRate came about

It is definetly why CSI endorses and supports the Fargo system.

It is better for the overall growth of pool

Mark Griffin

lorider
10-15-2017, 11:57 AM
Countless times on here I have read comments regarding league players like
...

Quit leagues ....play tournaments

Stop hiding behind handicaps and get in the grease


Play tournaments

To be a better player you gotta play better players

Play for money


The consensus seems to be you expect a lowly league player to get out of his element and play in situations where he does not have a chance of cashing in

Pay your dues and improve to where you can be competitive with us more serious players.

Here we.have a thread started debating whether a high level player should be allowed to play in a tournament that others " day job fellas " dont have a chance of cashing in.

What happened to stepping up ?

What happened to get in the grease?

What happened to pay your dues and improve in order to be competitive ?

Kind of ironic that you have a thread on the main page more or less stating that league players complain about having no chance in a tournament with "just " players and now you have a thread about " day job " players....love that terminology lol.....complaining about having no chance in a tournament with a pro.

cuesblues
10-15-2017, 12:01 PM
When Shane was living in Fort Collins and playing-winning a lot of tournaments around here, it seemed like it was good for pool.
But that was Shane who is very likable, a good ambassador for the game.

Danny Medina played in many local tournaments here in Denver, and I think guys enjoyed being able to say... "I played Danny Medina last night"

Get_A_Grip
10-15-2017, 12:10 PM
This is one of the reasons why FargoRate came about

It is definetly why CSI endorses and supports the Fargo system.

It is better for the overall growth of pool

Mark Griffin
I would say that it's good for the "sport" of pool. However, for the better amateur players that like to make money gambling and playing in handicapped tournaments, I know some that don't like it. For the obvious reason that with a very accurate Fargo Rating, they just can't get as many games unless they give up the "world" in weight and they feel that their rating equalizes things too much in the tournaments.

For me, I don't mind being rated extremely accurately and being in really competitive games, because I don't depend on pool to make money. (Disclosure -- I do not have a Fargo Rating right now).

pocket
10-15-2017, 12:41 PM
This is one of the reasons why FargoRate came about

It is definetly why CSI endorses and supports the Fargo system.

It is better for the overall growth of pool

Mark Griffin

Meaningless untill data is more widely collected though.

JC
10-15-2017, 12:48 PM
This is one of the reasons why FargoRate came about

It is definetly why CSI endorses and supports the Fargo system.

It is better for the overall growth of pool

Mark Griffin

So what is the end game vision of Fargorate and pool? All CSI matches at every level being played in real time with Fairmatch? Will this be good for pool? Or will it run off the cream?

Will including league play in the ratings make them more or less accurate? Will being able to affect your own rating downward in real time via league play sandbagging not be noticed by those most willing to do such a thing? I have some serious questions about all of this.

I have not made a conclusion personally about the basic question of this thread. It's complicated and it's a mixed bag.

JC

Tin Man
10-15-2017, 01:08 PM
Having a reward for playing high level pool is good for the game. When up and coming players see top players winning tournaments, making money, and traveling the world, it encourages them to want to get to that level. Watching top players quitting pool at early ages and getting jobs or switching to poker isn't good for the game.

10 years ago I was winning a lot of local tournaments. It was really good for my confidence, and I was able to make some extra money regionally. In turn I would fire at the US Open, Seminole events, etc. I had the funds to play and I had the confidence of having won the last couple of tournaments I had played in. I remember feeling like a winner, having a little spring in my step as I walked into the pool hall.

In the last 5 years I have all but quit playing locally due to the lack of open events. The local handicap tournaments have gotten to where the top players no longer have an edge. I have given up 3 games to 8 against players that can run multiple racks from the break. I lost, lost, and lost. It got to the point that it affected my confidence, I no longer felt like I was a good player that was going to come with the shot for the win, I just felt like I was a big guy with my hands tied together being picked on by people weaker than me. I forgot how to expect good things to happen. I finally decided not to play them anymore. Now I play only 1-2 tournaments that are open with no handicaps per year. Otherwise I practice in my basement.

I can't imagine that is good for pool. You can say that 'people won't play if it's not handicapped', but that might be because there is no longer a reason to put in your dues because there is no reward at the top. If the reward for being a top player is being barred or hogtied then why should they step up and try to get better?

In an ideal world there should be both a bottom down and a top up approach, meaning reward for being at the top and some things to encourage people to take a shot. But I really do believe the best encouragement for people to take a shot is a reward for being at the top.

Too bad I don't think that's possible anymore. One of the biggest rewards for being at the top when I was up and coming was being the man to beat. Being the best money player in the local scene, the one that stepped up to play the out of towners, the one that was always in the biggest action. It used to be they were like celebrities. Now no one cares, they can see better matches on YouTube and people that could never play at that level still think "Oh, he's nothing compared to Ko Pin Yi". I've seen the finals of tournaments go from packed crowds in the 90s to empty seats. Top on travel expenses, recession, poker, attention spans/technology, and whatever else you want to throw in and I don't think this is turning around.

So in short, yes, I do believe top players should be able to play in tournaments. But I have given up any and all expectations of that and it wouldn't surprise me if my town didn't even have a 9 foot table left in 10 years. If you play pool these days you'd better do it for love of hitting balls by yourself, because there ain't much else out there to gun for.

justadub
10-15-2017, 01:22 PM
Countless times on here I have read comments regarding league players like
...

Quit leagues ....play tournaments

Stop hiding behind handicaps and get in the grease


Play tournaments

To be a better player you gotta play better players

Play for money


The consensus seems to be you expect a lowly league player to get out of his element and play in situations where he does not have a chance of cashing in

Pay your dues and improve to where you can be competitive with us more serious players.

Here we.have a thread started debating whether a high level player should be allowed to play in a tournament that others " day job fellas " dont have a chance of cashing in.

What happened to stepping up ?

What happened to get in the grease?

What happened to pay your dues and improve in order to be competitive ?

Kind of ironic that you have a thread on the main page more or less stating that league players complain about having no chance in a tournament with "just " players and now you have a thread about " day job " players....love that terminology lol.....complaining about having no chance in a tournament with a pro.

Funny, ain't it? :thumbup:

PoolBum
10-15-2017, 01:24 PM
I have no problem with pros playing in any event that isn't strictly designated as amateur-only.

Ched
10-15-2017, 01:26 PM
I'd love to see some structure to the world of pool. Unfortunately there really isn't a single governing body ... in fact they can't even agree on various rules between leagues. I think a good foundation and set of guidelines would lead to a point where it was actually profitable to become a professional pool player. (outside the "hustler" stigma).

Unfortunately - we're not at that point. There's still a ton of Cesar Morales's out there. So for now it's incumbent upon the player to know the competition and enter available tournaments accordingly.

mvp
10-15-2017, 01:35 PM
In my area pro Jason klatt is a local, and honesty when the buzz gets around that he's gonna play in our local $30 tournament we go from 30 guys to around 60! People want to step up and say they beat him! Also it gives the newcomers something to gauge themselves against. And with the exception of the very top pros most are very beatable in a race to 5!

Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

Ched
10-15-2017, 01:45 PM
In my area pro Jason klatt is a local, and honesty when the buzz gets around that he's gonna play in our local $30 tournament we go from 30 guys to around 60! People want to step up and say they beat him! Also it gives the newcomers something to gauge themselves against. And with the exception of the very top pros most are very beatable in a race to 5!

Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

Oh sure. And I'll bet you're against kids getting "participation trophies" too. You big meanie. (</sarcasm .. I actually agree with that concept.)

De420MadHatter
10-15-2017, 01:53 PM
In my area pro Jason klatt is a local, and honesty when the buzz gets around that he's gonna play in our local $30 tournament we go from 30 guys to around 60! People want to step up and say they beat him! Also it gives the newcomers something to gauge themselves against. And with the exception of the very top pros most are very beatable in a race to 5!

Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

Spot on, especially your fat man example.
So your a 3 and win a tournament because the other guys had to go to 10, and you had to go to 2. Who gives a shit!!!!
This everyone gets a trophy bs is getting ridiculous. Used to be, you put your time in, paid your dues, you got to win. Now you just need a pulse, and they'll give you a trophy, a patch, a plague, etc...
You suck, but here's your trophy.

justadub
10-15-2017, 01:59 PM
Spot on, especially your fat man example.
So your a 3 and win a tournament because the other guys had to go to 10, and you had to go to 2. Who gives a shit!!!!
This everyone gets a trophy bs is getting ridiculous. Used to be, you put your time in, paid your dues, you got to win. Now you just need a pulse, and they'll give you a trophy, a patch, a plague, etc...
You suck, but here's your trophy.

Of course, the opposite can be viewed as true, as well. using the parameters of the original post, a pro going in to play in a local tournament shouldn't have a helluva lot to be proud of either...here's the cash that the locals put in to play each other before the pro stopped in for lunch money.

Myself, I'm not against pro's participating. I think its cool when they are around. I just understand why there are handicaps in small level tourneys. If you actually want people to participate and grow the prize fund, and have more involved. The "participation trophy" argument gets old.

Neil
10-15-2017, 02:12 PM
Having a reward for playing high level pool is good for the game. When up and coming players see top players winning tournaments, making money, and traveling the world, it encourages them to want to get to that level. Watching top players quitting pool at early ages and getting jobs or switching to poker isn't good for the game.

10 years ago I was winning a lot of local tournaments. It was really good for my confidence, and I was able to make some extra money regionally. In turn I would fire at the US Open, Seminole events, etc. I had the funds to play and I had the confidence of having won the last couple of tournaments I had played in. I remember feeling like a winner, having a little spring in my step as I walked into the pool hall.

In the last 5 years I have all but quit playing locally due to the lack of open events. The local handicap tournaments have gotten to where the top players no longer have an edge. I have given up 3 games to 8 against players that can run multiple racks from the break. I lost, lost, and lost. It got to the point that it affected my confidence, I no longer felt like I was a good player that was going to come with the shot for the win, I just felt like I was a big guy with my hands tied together being picked on by people weaker than me. I forgot how to expect good things to happen. I finally decided not to play them anymore. Now I play only 1-2 tournaments that are open with no handicaps per year. Otherwise I practice in my basement.

I can't imagine that is good for pool. You can say that 'people won't play if it's not handicapped', but that might be because there is no longer a reason to put in your dues because there is no reward at the top. If the reward for being a top player is being barred or hogtied then why should they step up and try to get better?

In an ideal world there should be both a bottom down and a top up approach, meaning reward for being at the top and some things to encourage people to take a shot. But I really do believe the best encouragement for people to take a shot is a reward for being at the top.

Too bad I don't think that's possible anymore. One of the biggest rewards for being at the top when I was up and coming was being the man to beat. Being the best money player in the local scene, the one that stepped up to play the out of towners, the one that was always in the biggest action. It used to be they were like celebrities. Now no one cares, they can see better matches on YouTube and people that could never play at that level still think "Oh, he's nothing compared to Ko Pin Yi". I've seen the finals of tournaments go from packed crowds in the 90s to empty seats. Top on travel expenses, recession, poker, attention spans/technology, and whatever else you want to throw in and I don't think this is turning around.

So in short, yes, I do believe top players should be able to play in tournaments. But I have given up any and all expectations of that and it wouldn't surprise me if my town didn't even have a 9 foot table left in 10 years. If you play pool these days you'd better do it for love of hitting balls by yourself, because there ain't much else out there to gun for.

What he said. .....in spades.

mvp
10-15-2017, 02:14 PM
Look at it from a pros point of view, in my reference I'm gonna say a lower level pro like Eberle. Max has the skill set to catch a gear and win a major but chances are he's underclassed against the top contenders. Sayin that, there's a very good chance he won't cash in the money. So he needs to play in lower level tourneys but now he's unable to play or "ROB" a local tournament because he's a pro! What's he to do? My whole argument is for him to step up and play like SVB, but that means the locals need to step up and play like Max! Until we have a true professional sanctioning body like the NBA,NFL, PGA, etc We really need to get away with handicaps, pro and amateurs and just have pool! Let the best person win!

pt109
10-15-2017, 02:26 PM
In cases like this....I like spreading the prize money rather than a top heavy payout.
...and put a bonus prize on anyone who beats him.

couldnthinkof01
10-15-2017, 02:41 PM
Handicap events have their place. Tough to; play, practice, play, etc. And never win. Ego and confidence have their needs too.
But when I play open events I wish every sign up sheet read like the us open!

BmoreMoney
10-15-2017, 03:09 PM
For years the hole in the wall redneck bar I hung in had at least a Fri night $10 tourney. Always drew 30, 40, 50 people usually apa folks. Admittedly , I won or cashed most of the time. As players , most knew " someone " and as the word got out quickly the pros and short stops came around to steal the momey. This great tourney was competely busted out within 6 months if not less.

There are " some "people that don't mind donating if they get to play a pro, but most of these tourney are supported by league players who have no idea who the hell they are and just quit playing .

Worth noting : " MOST " OF these "pro " players are starving and they ALL look to pick up local $80 dollar scores to get by. Right or wrong can't say, but as a pool player it dog eat dog world. Just how it is, sorry.

medallio
10-15-2017, 03:24 PM
Itís sad that one of my goals is to be so good Iím banned. A little sarcastic but a little truthful as we know thatís what happens

jimmyco
10-15-2017, 04:11 PM
If the rules allow it, how is it "robbing"?

Curious, what does the average pro earn, after travel, lodging and dining expenses?

Kim Bye
10-15-2017, 04:11 PM
If you support yourself by playing as much pool as other people do working, of course you should not be allowed in a amateur tournament, unless the handicap is such that it neutralizes the difference.
I don`t have the time to play much now, but when I do play, I sometimes meet people who live their lives at the pool hall. And the question: "do you wanna play for something" comes up.
Yeah sure, I`ll play for a beer, a pop or whatever, but make the odds even. Spot me 1 up to the 7 ball in 10 ball and we will be even. Then their not interested anymore, because it`s "unfair"
But asking a guy who plays less pool per month than they do in a day, and expecting me to pick up your beer tab, that`s somehow fair?
This IS why pool has a bad reputation.
I`m totally fine with people who want to perform under preassure, but they can do so on their own choosing. To think that every pool players is highly competetive and it's only a match when money is on the line, is to miss the point of the sport.
I have always played pool to relax and get away from the everyday stress.

Straightpool_99
10-15-2017, 04:14 PM
For years the hole in the wall redneck bar I hung in had at least a Fri night $10 tourney. Always drew 30, 40, 50 people usually apa folks. Admittedly , I won or cashed most of the time. As players , most knew " someone " and as the word got out quickly the pros and short stops came around to steal the momey. This great tourney was competely busted out within 6 months if not less.

There are " some "people that don't mind donating if they get to play a pro, but most of these tourney are supported by league players who have no idea who the hell they are and just quit playing .

Worth noting : " MOST " OF these "pro " players are starving and they ALL look to pick up local $80 dollar scores to get by. Right or wrong can't say, but as a pool player it dog eat dog world. Just how it is, sorry.

THIS story is why you don't let pros play in small local tournaments. They destroyed the pool scene in this place, and for what? Chump change!

What do you expect is going to happen when "9 to 5 Bill" who maybe gets to play 2 hours of pool a week, if he's lucky, has to play a pro every time he's out playing? Is he magically going to get to pro standard? Is he going to quit his job and let his kids fend for themselves? All that stuff about "getting inspired" is just bull. A pro should consider it beneath them to try and rob people who can't hit the end rail! Personally I'd love to play pros (though the result would be much the same as with 9 to 5 Bill) but I and most people on this board are not typical of the pool world as a whole.

What may inspire "9-5 Bill" is to maybe beat that guy in the rival company, or be the best player in his office or whatever. What is getting blanked by Mika Immonen or Shane Van Boening every week going to do for his motivation? He has no chance to get to that level no matter what he does. Not everyone has ambitions of becoming the greatest player they can be. Some just want to have a little rivalry with their friends and blow off some steam.

Where I live pool is organized as a sport with skill level divisions. Since you Americans refuse to do things that way, your only option is to protect those small tournaments fiercely. If the local pros are hard up for cash, you can maybe organize a small "challenge the pro" tournament where they take on all comers in a race to 3 or something. Have some t-shirts for prices with "I beat (name of pro)" on them. Or refer people to the pros for lessons.

BmoreMoney
10-15-2017, 04:34 PM
THIS story is why you don't let pros play in small local tournaments. They destroyed the pool scene in this place, and for what? Chump change!

What do you expect is going to happen when "9 to 5 Bill" who maybe gets to play 2 hours of pool a week, if he's lucky, has to play a pro every time he's out playing? Is he magically going to get to pro standard? Is he going to quit his job and let his kids fend for themselves? All that stuff about "getting inspired" is just bull. A pro should consider it beneath them to try and rob people who can't hit the end rail! Personally I'd love to play pros (though the result would be much the same as with 9 to 5 Bill) but I and most people on this board are not typical of the pool world as a whole.

What may inspire "9-5 Bill" is to maybe beat that guy in the rival company, or be the best player in his office or whatever. What is getting blanked by Mika Immonen or Shane Van Boening every week going to do for his motivation? He has no chance to get to that level no matter what he does. Not everyone has ambitions of becoming the greatest player they can be. Some just want to have a little rivalry with their friends and blow off some steam.

Where I live pool is organized as a sport with skill level divisions. Since you Americans refuse to do things that way, your only option is to protect those small tournaments fiercely. If the local pros are hard up for cash, you can maybe organize a small "challenge the pro" tournament where they take on all comers in a race to 3 or something. Have some t-shirts for prices with "I beat (name of pro)" on them. Or refer people to the pros for lessons.

I agree 100%. The reason that this was allowed to happen was a couple of reasons. First : the owner ( who I was and am still friends with was apparently enamored with the " pros ". Also he was involved with sponsoring one of the " pros ". Occasionally Tom Rossman or Black Widow would stop by and put on a show for a bit. This was also a heavy action bar - more so league if that makes sense. Leagues 7 nights a week with multiple teams going to Vegas every time . Walls covered with trophies . You get the idea. Anyway, not that I was a pro by any means
, but I was allowed to always play because I was in there most nights and most nights my tab was a couple hundred or more. ( I bought a lot of drinks lol ). But then the soda drinkin, water drinkin, not there for the fun folks started coming in and killed it for everyone . It was always stiff competition between us locals mixed in with the 3, 4, 5, 6 etc league players but we were all friends. When the " pros " started stopping by for an easy payday, the " starstruck mentality " wore off REAL FAST and then puff - nothing.

decent dennis
10-15-2017, 04:53 PM
What really sucks is when they are allowed to play, win the hotseat and traveling partner wins the losers side, and then decide to chop it because they don't want to play each other.

I myself didn't mind them playing, but at least play the final, and I'm talking about former Mosconi teammates.

kor b
10-15-2017, 04:53 PM
Let them play, but i should be able to get my entry money back if Shane signs up at the last minute. This is the only way the free market could work.

Dave714
10-15-2017, 05:04 PM
Pro pool players are some of the brokest people on the planet. At least the amateur players have a paying job.

pwd72s
10-15-2017, 05:12 PM
Is this good for the sport?

Here in the Northwest we have the nicest pro you would ever want to meet. He takes home a lot of the cheese from day job player events.

Is this right? If not where do you draw the line?

JC

Grumbling about Stan's action are you? ;)

justinb386
10-15-2017, 05:15 PM
Countless times on here I have read comments regarding league players like
...

Quit leagues ....play tournaments

Stop hiding behind handicaps and get in the grease


Play tournaments

To be a better player you gotta play better players

Play for money


The consensus seems to be you expect a lowly league player to get out of his element and play in situations where he does not have a chance of cashing in

Pay your dues and improve to where you can be competitive with us more serious players.

Here we.have a thread started debating whether a high level player should be allowed to play in a tournament that others " day job fellas " dont have a chance of cashing in.

What happened to stepping up ?

What happened to get in the grease?

What happened to pay your dues and improve in order to be competitive ?

Kind of ironic that you have a thread on the main page more or less stating that league players complain about having no chance in a tournament with "just " players and now you have a thread about " day job " players....love that terminology lol.....complaining about having no chance in a tournament with a pro.

That is why a lot of tournaments are handicapped. If there is no handicap system, and it is an open tournament, then yeah, anyone is allowed to play in it. If it is a handicapped tournament, then give the pro a handicap that you think is fair (if you are the TD), like a 13 or whatever the highest rating is. And if it is a very short race tournament (like a race to 5 9 ball, for example), then it will not matter if a pro is playing, a lower skill level player does have a chance against any pro in a short race tournament (if they play good). I would love to have a chance to get to play a known pro in a small $10 or $20 weekly tournament. I think players should be honored that a pro would spend his night at a small weekly tournament (where the winner might only win a few hundred dollars).

justinb386
10-15-2017, 05:16 PM
When Shane was living in Fort Collins and playing-winning a lot of tournaments around here, it seemed like it was good for pool.
But that was Shane who is very likable, a good ambassador for the game.

Danny Medina played in many local tournaments here in Denver, and I think guys enjoyed being able to say... "I played Danny Medina last night"

Yeah, I think it is good for the game, that pros play in smaller weekly tournaments. I think it is really cool.

BmoreMoney
10-15-2017, 05:29 PM
Yeah, I think it is good for the game, that pros play in smaller weekly tournaments. I think it is really cool.

Yes it kinda da is, but for most regular folks that wears off after the first 3 or 4 or 12 weeks in a row where same people take turns suckling the money out of it. As I said, I never really minded but most of the folks play in were apa players so they do start to mind .

Ched
10-15-2017, 05:41 PM
Pro pool players are some of the brokest people on the planet. At least the amateur players have a paying job.

That's their own choice. They know what various things pay. They can always pick up a part time job to cover a few bills. Just sayin.

maha
10-15-2017, 06:05 PM
the players need to tell the director they wont play if they dont have a chance. if enough say that then things change.

if its legal for him to play i cant fault him for getting in. but who would want to play all night in a tournament that you dont have a chance in and the same three players take all the money out every week.

mvp
10-15-2017, 06:14 PM
the players need to tell the director they wont play if they dont have a chance. if enough say that then things change.

if its legal for him to play i cant fault him for getting in. but who would want to play all night in a tournament that you dont have a chance in and the same three players take all the money out every week.

Short enough of a race and anyone can win!

couldnthinkof01
10-15-2017, 06:17 PM
I've always wondered why people will play league. Pay $15 for just one match, of which only half goes into a prize fund, plus seasonal or annual dues, will do this all day everyday. They will never make any profit. But when asked to play in a tournament for $15 where you play at least 2 matches they look at you like your nutz. " im not doing that, same 3 guys win all the money!"

MJB
10-15-2017, 06:25 PM
I scanned through this thread. A lot of good opinions. Here are a couple of considerations:

-Do any pro-level players really show up to "weekly" events? I'd think this would be beneath a pro-level player, unless they are REALLY hard up for money, or if a weekly tourney somewhere is just that hot.

-Let's say you're hosting a monthly or special event that you don't want to see a pro robbing, so you advertise "no pros allowed" (I've seen this approach). So now comes the question...what constitutes a pro player? I'm curious about opinions on this one. I mean, it's not like golf where you have a tour card. Sure you have the top pros and mid-pros that everyone can name in a lineup, but what about the guys who hold their own in pro events but maybe have never won? Where do you draw the line in that case?

poolscholar
10-15-2017, 06:44 PM
In the last 5 years I have all but quit playing locally due to the lack of open events. The local handicap tournaments have gotten to where the top players no longer have an edge. I have given up 3 games to 8 against players that can run multiple racks from the break. I lost, lost, and lost. It got to the point that it affected my confidence, I no longer felt like I was a good player that was going to come with the shot for the win, I just felt like I was a big guy with my hands tied together being picked on by people weaker than me. I forgot how to expect good things to happen. I finally decided not to play them anymore. Now I play only 1-2 tournaments that are open with no handicaps per year. Otherwise I practice in my basement.



Except the top local players still often win the mpa handicap tournaments. Lee, Jr and Jesse all on taking tons of money over the years (and well as you winning yourself)

Black-Balled
10-15-2017, 06:59 PM
THuff call. I wouldn't show up every week, just to see the same guy win easily.

I have been the bully and killed more than a few local weekly events, now there are basically none.

Without handicaps, long term participation suffers.

maha
10-15-2017, 07:02 PM
the director can take it upon himself to handicap the much better players so that all can have some chance.
pool is a game of skill and if not balanced only a few take all the money and the game dies off. is that so hard to understand. how long will the average player watch his money go to the same people.

Neil
10-15-2017, 07:34 PM
A simple solution is - you win it, you sit out for two weeks. Gives others a better chance. And don't make the payouts so top heavy.

BassMasterK
10-15-2017, 07:42 PM
I've seen some places put a rule in place that the winner of a tourney is not allowed to play in it the following week. It doesn't stop things if there are 2 or 3 guys that are way better than everyone else and always win, but I think it sends a message that they are trying to keep it from being a one person show.

Another place I like to play at has short races, a low entry fee and they report matches to Fargorate. If you are rated a master or above, you have to win an extra game. I like this for two reasons. One, the handicap is minimal. I'm not big into handicaps but this seems fair. Two, the low entry fee means it isn't going to be a big payday and that seems to keep it from being of much interest to our best local players. People are there because they love to play and they want some competition. The money is just the icing on the cake.

Rico
10-15-2017, 07:43 PM
Used to be a pro couldnt play in B.C.A. if you played in a tourn. with $300 entry you were out. Comparing pool to golf in golf if you make over$600 in a yr your a pro. Plenty of no masters tourn. Open should be just that open..If you want to ***** ***** about the 3and4s that runout play good safes and steal these short race tourns. Talk about no heart!!!.

JohnnyOzone
10-15-2017, 08:13 PM
I think it's sad, more than anything.

Comparing golf to pool........at least golf has extensive regulations to define what a "pro" is. Pool has nothing.

The USGA does it to protect true amateurism. The BCA does not seem to care.

If there was a proper professional tour(s) maybe things would be different.

maybe 10 years down the road when FargoRate becomes ubiquitous (keeping fingers crossed), tournaments can set Fargo limits to define their fields.

realkingcobra
10-15-2017, 08:18 PM
This is one of the reasons why FargoRate came about

It is definetly why CSI endorses and supports the Fargo system.

It is better for the overall growth of pool

Mark Griffin

When are the PRO'S ONLY events going to start taking place?

Ekojasiloop
10-15-2017, 09:42 PM
The definition of a pro should be something along the lines that he or she makes a reasonable wage per year, say 40k or so.

So yes, most all players should be able to rob tournaments. If not the good player is the one getting robbed.

Neil
10-15-2017, 09:43 PM
I've seen some places put a rule in place that the winner of a tourney is not allowed to play in it the following week. It doesn't stop things if there are 2 or 3 guys that are way better than everyone else and always win, but I think it sends a message that they are trying to keep it from being a one person show.

Another place I like to play at has short races, a low entry fee and they report matches to Fargorate. If you are rated a master or above, you have to win an extra game. I like this for two reasons. One, the handicap is minimal. I'm not big into handicaps but this seems fair. Two, the low entry fee means it isn't going to be a big payday and that seems to keep it from being of much interest to our best local players. People are there because they love to play and they want some competition. The money is just the icing on the cake.

Then just make it APA 5's and below. Take out the good players and there will still be a few winning regularly. And then the lower players will complain about them.

Snooker Theory
10-15-2017, 09:51 PM
If the money was good on the professional tour these guys wouldn't have to play side tournaments all the time IMHO.

I personally would love to play a pro in a local tournament even knowing that I would lose.
Look at the sad cash these guys are making, Corey Duel ranked 33rd on money list for this year with only 22 grand. After travel expenses, that isn't jack. Rodney Morris at 48th with 16 grand.

Comparing pool to golf is nuts when the 33rd guy in the money on the PGA is making $2,838,629.30 a year and the 48th ranked player pulling in a cool $2,058,070.00.
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/azb-money-leaderboard/2017/all/
http://www.espn.com/golf/moneylist/_/year/2017

A simple solution is - you win it, you sit out for two weeks. Gives others a better chance. And don't make the payouts so top heavy.
I couldn't be against this more, heck just make it so if a person wins, that person can't play until everyone else in the league has won. Eventually everyone will have a trophy.

BassMasterK
10-15-2017, 10:07 PM
Then just make it APA 5's and below. Take out the good players and there will still be a few winning regularly. And then the lower players will complain about them.

How is what you suggested an improvement? I shared how a few places keep the tourneys open for everyone while trying to keep people coming back for more.

Neil
10-15-2017, 11:15 PM
How is what you suggested an improvement? I shared how a few places keep the tourneys open for everyone while trying to keep people coming back for more.

It's not an improvement for players tourny. But, if it is a group that isn;t very good to start with, they are there mainly to have fun and maybe a shot at coming close, and most of them are complaing about the better players, then it is another option. They did that around here and get good turnouts.

YES, IT SUCKS FOR THE BETTER PLAYERS.

raistlinsdragon
10-16-2017, 02:38 AM
Funny isn't it....The same good player's that don't want the tournament handicapped........Will come in during the week and offer spots all over the room.

Rimfirejunkie
10-16-2017, 03:15 AM
The definition of a pro should be something along the lines that he or she makes a reasonable wage per year, say 40k or so.

So yes, most all players should be able to rob tournaments. If not the good player is the one getting robbed.

40k for a pro? Lol
This is the most absurd thing Iíve read here! Thatís saying something.

Black-Balled
10-16-2017, 06:28 AM
40k for a pro? Lol
This is the most absurd thing Iíve read here! Thatís saying something.

If that is the most absurd thing you've read here, you aren't giving the azb much effort.

40k a year (which would have to be tournament winnings, right ekoelaopolj?) Is fuguckin big.

I agree it pales in comparison to real work wages, but why shouldn't it?

Koop
10-16-2017, 06:44 AM
With a fair handicap I don't see the problem. I used to play Mike Dechaine in local tournaments with a crazy spot and he always outran the nuts and I always felt I had a shot. Besides, most of these tournaments are around $20 entry so who really cares? For me it was about having fun and playing good competition.

Celophanewrap
10-16-2017, 07:55 AM
When Shane was living in Fort Collins and playing-winning a lot of tournaments around here, it seemed like it was good for pool.
But that was Shane who is very likable, a good ambassador for the game.

Danny Medina played in many local tournaments here in Denver, and I think guys enjoyed being able to say... "I played Danny Medina last night"

I enjoyed that the first time, and I liked Danny a lot, so I didn't mind being totally honest
about it and saying, So last night I got to rack for Danny Medina


I don't really see a problem as long as you know what you are getting into. I think if you enter an "open" tournament you should expect to play better, sometimes

wayyyyyyy better players, maybe even a pro, a semi pro, a road player.... If you enter an APA tournament 6's and under, you should expect that. I don't really enter anything like that anymore, I just hate the

waiting around between matches, but if you do enter a tournament you should know what to expect. If you see or hear about a player that has entered and you

don't want to play them, then don't enter. I think it's good for the game, people come out to see a pro, it helps grow the sport

Island Drive
10-16-2017, 08:12 AM
Here's a thread that's not going to come to any definitive conclusion. The whining factor :sad: will always have it's say. It will often be right, often be wrong and in the end, the event will either succeed or not. No lives will be shattered, many differences will be realized and who holds all the trump cards will be realized. :thumbup:

mikepage
10-16-2017, 08:37 AM
[...]
Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

It is not one-size-fits-all.

Let me give an example of another situation that maybe helps make a point.

My extended family has taken many beach vacations, and we are competitive by nature; we can make a contest out of anything. One of the things we do is play touch football on the beach--and there is no out-of-bounds on the ocean side of the field. We may have a few college-level athletes, a few women, a few fat guys, and few old people, and maybe a few kids. We'll make sure the athletes are on separate teams, split up the fat people, and so forth. Then once we have teams, the event will go on for many hours. We will be hot, fatigued, scratched up from diving attempts in the crumbled sea shells. We'll develop team camaraderie. We'll go on when it seems we are too exhausted to continue because we are only behind by one score... And afterward, we'll drink beer well into the night talking about key plays, about the incredible play where we hiked the ball to grandma who lateral'd back to the kid who threw to the open college athlete.

The POINT here is not to figure out who are the better players. We already know that. The POINT is to share the struggle, to experience the excitement of a small success, the disappointment of a small failure, to engage, to put a little spring in our steps, and to make our lives just a little better. It is not really about the result; it is about the process.

A good handicapped tournament can give everybody the chance--no matter how good they really are--to occasionally have that day where everything seems to click, and you make it farther than you'd ever imagined, and people are watching you, and you're nervous, and it feels like your arm is just barely connected to your body...

So yes, there also should be unhandicapped events, events where the player who performs the best finishes the highest. There is room for both.

This response doesn't address the original poster's question. I fear the wording of that question is not so conducive to a serious discussion.

fastone371
10-16-2017, 09:33 AM
It is not one-size-fits-all.

Let me give an example of another situation that maybe helps make a point.

My extended family has taken many beach vacations, and we are competitive by nature; we can make a contest out of anything. One of the things we do is play touch football on the beach--and there is no out-of-bounds on the ocean side of the field. We may have a few college-level athletes, a few women, a few fat guys, and few old people, and maybe a few kids. We'll make sure the athletes are on separate teams, split up the fat people, and so forth. Then once we have teams, the event will go on for many hours. We will be hot, fatigued, scratched up from diving attempts in the crumbled sea shells. We'll develop team camaraderie. We'll go on when it seems we are too exhausted to continue because we are only behind by one score... And afterward, we'll drink beer well into the night talking about key plays, about the incredible play where we hiked the ball to grandma who lateral'd back to the kid who threw to the open college athlete.

The POINT here is not to figure out who are the better players. We already know that. The POINT is to share the struggle, to experience the excitement of a small success, the disappointment of a small failure, to engage, to put a little spring in our steps, and to make our lives just a little better. It is not really about the result; it is about the process.

A good handicapped tournament can give everybody the chance--no matter how good they really are--to occasionally have that day where everything seems to click, and you make it farther than you'd ever imagined, and people are watching you, and you're nervous, and it feels like your arm is just barely connected to your body...

So yes, there also should be unhandicapped events, events where the player who performs the best finishes the highest. There is room for both.

This response doesn't address the original poster's question. I fear the wording of that question is not so conducive to a serious discussion.

Excellent post Mike!!!!!

jasonlaus
10-16-2017, 09:34 AM
In my area pro Jason klatt is a local, and honesty when the buzz gets around that he's gonna play in our local $30 tournament we go from 30 guys to around 60! People want to step up and say they beat him! Also it gives the newcomers something to gauge themselves against. And with the exception of the very top pros most are very beatable in a race to 5!

Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

Sure enough, you have a great area for playing. They don't mind Sarah beating on them either.
Jason

fastone371
10-16-2017, 09:41 AM
What seems to work pretty well around here is setting tournaments up by skill level. One of the most popular tournaments is a MPS/Fargorate 499 and under. There are also 425 and under, 625 and under, etc. A player does not need to be over a certain threshold to be eligible, as long as they do not go over the maximum. Fargo is very well established here because we have been using MyPoolStats for at least 5-6 years now which is based off of Fargorate. We still have high level players complaining that they are rated too high for certain tournaments but the funny thing about it is when there is an open tournament they complainers are nowhere to be found. I think a certain amount of players just want to be able to for lack of a better word rob the lower level players and they avoid tournaments where they will face stiff competition.

Black-Balled
10-16-2017, 09:42 AM
Why work for money, when you can play for it?

I have fallen for the ruse many times!
What seems to work pretty well around here is setting tournaments up by skill level. One of the most popular tournaments is a MPS/Fargorate 499 and under. There are also 425 and under, 625 and under, etc. A player does not need to be over a certain threshold to be eligible, as long as they do not go over the maximum. Fargo is very well established here because we have been using MyPoolStats for at least 5-6 years now which is based off of Fargorate. We still have high level players complaining that they are rated too high for certain tournaments but the funny thing about it is when there is an open tournament they complainers are nowhere to be found. I think a certain amount of players just want to be able to for lack of a better word rob the lower level players and they avoid tournaments where they will face stiff competition.

Capt D
10-16-2017, 09:44 AM
We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

AMEN!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

Dockter
10-16-2017, 09:50 AM
I will never understand why we penalize players for being too good.

I'm just above terrible about once a week and I'm below terrible the rest of the week and I still enjoy when Shane Or Danny Olson shows up to one of our local tournaments. It's pretty rare to see Shane these days but Danny still shows up here and there and I haven't heard 1 player complain about it.

longhorns2
10-16-2017, 09:53 AM
CJ Wiley often plays at our local tourney. Some people complain but imo it's great having that level of competition for such a cheap entry. And considering they're short races, anyone that can break and run occasionally has a chance against even the top pros

JC
10-16-2017, 09:57 AM
This response doesn't address the original poster's question. I fear the wording of that question is not so conducive to a serious discussion.

Yet a serious discussion is taking place in spite of the verbiage.:)

I wasn't really thinking about weekly local tournaments although that's where it seems to have headed. I was talking about larger/longer amateur events where the majority of the contestants are taking time off of work to attend at no small expense. Food, travel, lodging, entry fees etc.

I have mixed feeling about it myself because I don't go to these just to win but mostly for the atmosphere and camaraderie and to get away from work. It doesn't bother me the way it is but I have heard a lot of opinions from people who it does. And they make valid points. That's all.

JC

tucson9ball
10-16-2017, 10:07 AM
Is this good for the sport?

Here in the Northwest we have the nicest pro you would ever want to meet. He takes home a lot of the cheese from day job player events.

Is this right? If not where do you draw the line?

JC

It really depends on the format.
If it's a short race to 2 or 3 games, you may have a chance to win against a Pro.
If the races are to 7ish, you have very little chance.
If they use some type of handicap system, like Fargo, you may have a 7/3 race for example. This puts more pressure on the Pro to not miss a money ball.
So, winning against a Pro really depends on the format.

Another thing to think about....Will some guys show up to play just because they want to play a Pro? Usually the answer is, yes. This will get more guys in the tournament and ultimately means more money for the pool hall by selling food/drinks.

My own opinion, I think it helps the local tournies to have a Pro get involved. Especially if he sticks around and gives a few pointers to the lower rated guys.

poolscholar
10-16-2017, 02:32 PM
Yeah, I think it is good for the game, that pros play in smaller weekly tournaments. I think it is really cool.

For every player that thinks its cool, there is a player that won't show up.

I agree people SHOULD appreciate it, and it SHOULD benefit people's games, etc...but in reality it definitely kills turnouts. This concept also applies to all open events where there are a few people of much higher skill than the rest of the field. This is especially true when people need to travel and have expenses.

The fact that people will actually enter a tournament and have zero chance of winning shows the poor state of pool and its organization. There are good reasons most sports have divisions or handicaps.

pt109
10-16-2017, 02:59 PM
It really depends on the format.
If it's a short race to 2 or 3 games, you may have a chance to win against a Pro.
If the races are to 7ish, you have very little chance.
If they use some type of handicap system, like Fargo, you may have a 7/3 race for example. This puts more pressure on the Pro to not miss a money ball.
So, winning against a Pro really depends on the format.

Another thing to think about....Will some guys show up to play just because they want to play a Pro? Usually the answer is, yes. This will get more guys in the tournament and ultimately means more money for the pool hall by selling food/drinks.

My own opinion, I think it helps the local tournies to have a Pro get involved.Especially if he sticks around and gives a few pointers
to the lower rated guys..

I've seen good players make people want to play...
..and I've seen good players make people not want to play.

PoppaSaun
10-16-2017, 03:08 PM
No, robbery is illegal.

If they want the money, make them win the tourney.

Kim Bye
10-16-2017, 03:33 PM
I've seen good players make people want to play...
..and I've seen good players make people not want to play.
Seeing how small the pool scene is and how world class players once struggled to get the first cue, the first cuebag etc and how many who`s helped them getting where they are today, it`s expected that they give back to the sport for free, it is in their own interest to motivate more people to play pool and for the people who allready play pool, to become better.
I`ve witnessed just what you are describing and sadly too many of the pro`s are selfish d***k`s who only serve their own interests.

us820
10-16-2017, 03:37 PM
Been lucky enough to catch a few pros locally in cheap tourneys.Loved every minute of getting beat every time.

maha
10-16-2017, 04:13 PM
it boils down to two types of players

1. one who is willing to lose money all the time at pool just so he can play and that's fine.

2. and the other who wants to win money overall, and also a subset of that, ones that want to get better and are willing to win or lose for the experience but not give away their cash.
this group will stop playing in places where it is obvious that they are donating.

Baxter
10-16-2017, 05:13 PM
Having a reward for playing high level pool is good for the game. When up and coming players see top players winning tournaments, making money, and traveling the world, it encourages them to want to get to that level. Watching top players quitting pool at early ages and getting jobs or switching to poker isn't good for the game.

10 years ago I was winning a lot of local tournaments. It was really good for my confidence, and I was able to make some extra money regionally. In turn I would fire at the US Open, Seminole events, etc. I had the funds to play and I had the confidence of having won the last couple of tournaments I had played in. I remember feeling like a winner, having a little spring in my step as I walked into the pool hall.

In the last 5 years I have all but quit playing locally due to the lack of open events. The local handicap tournaments have gotten to where the top players no longer have an edge. I have given up 3 games to 8 against players that can run multiple racks from the break. I lost, lost, and lost. It got to the point that it affected my confidence, I no longer felt like I was a good player that was going to come with the shot for the win, I just felt like I was a big guy with my hands tied together being picked on by people weaker than me. I forgot how to expect good things to happen. I finally decided not to play them anymore. Now I play only 1-2 tournaments that are open with no handicaps per year. Otherwise I practice in my basement.

I can't imagine that is good for pool. You can say that 'people won't play if it's not handicapped', but that might be because there is no longer a reason to put in your dues because there is no reward at the top. If the reward for being a top player is being barred or hogtied then why should they step up and try to get better?

In an ideal world there should be both a bottom down and a top up approach, meaning reward for being at the top and some things to encourage people to take a shot. But I really do believe the best encouragement for people to take a shot is a reward for being at the top.

Too bad I don't think that's possible anymore. One of the biggest rewards for being at the top when I was up and coming was being the man to beat. Being the best money player in the local scene, the one that stepped up to play the out of towners, the one that was always in the biggest action. It used to be they were like celebrities. Now no one cares, they can see better matches on YouTube and people that could never play at that level still think "Oh, he's nothing compared to Ko Pin Yi". I've seen the finals of tournaments go from packed crowds in the 90s to empty seats. Top on travel expenses, recession, poker, attention spans/technology, and whatever else you want to throw in and I don't think this is turning around.

So in short, yes, I do believe top players should be able to play in tournaments. But I have given up any and all expectations of that and it wouldn't surprise me if my town didn't even have a 9 foot table left in 10 years. If you play pool these days you'd better do it for love of hitting balls by yourself, because there ain't much else out there to gun for.

Tap tap tap

mvp
10-16-2017, 05:15 PM
If you're an amateur pool player only playing for money, take the time you spend at a pool table and go to work at McDonald's you will be farther ahead!

Play for enjoyment, play for competition, play for self improvement, but don't play to make money! The hours spent getting good enough to make money is lost opportunity to make lots of money with a regular job! Stay in school kids!

Education is important but Pool is importanter! Lol

Baxter
10-16-2017, 05:16 PM
THIS story is why you don't let pros play in small local tournaments. They destroyed the pool scene in this place, and for what? Chump change!

What do you expect is going to happen when "9 to 5 Bill" who maybe gets to play 2 hours of pool a week, if he's lucky, has to play a pro every time he's out playing? Is he magically going to get to pro standard? Is he going to quit his job and let his kids fend for themselves? All that stuff about "getting inspired" is just bull. A pro should consider it beneath them to try and rob people who can't hit the end rail! Personally I'd love to play pros (though the result would be much the same as with 9 to 5 Bill) but I and most people on this board are not typical of the pool world as a whole.

What may inspire "9-5 Bill" is to maybe beat that guy in the rival company, or be the best player in his office or whatever. What is getting blanked by Mika Immonen or Shane Van Boening every week going to do for his motivation? He has no chance to get to that level no matter what he does. Not everyone has ambitions of becoming the greatest player they can be. Some just want to have a little rivalry with their friends and blow off some steam.

Where I live pool is organized as a sport with skill level divisions. Since you Americans refuse to do things that way, your only option is to protect those small tournaments fiercely. If the local pros are hard up for cash, you can maybe organize a small "challenge the pro" tournament where they take on all comers in a race to 3 or something. Have some t-shirts for prices with "I beat (name of pro)" on them. Or refer people to the pros for lessons.

Isn't that what leagues are for?

eastcoast_chris
10-16-2017, 05:51 PM
I like how it works (for the most part) in my area.

There are handicapped one night "fun" tournaments with tiny entries where you might win $150 for first.

Bigger weekend tournaments are staggered entry fees, but not handicap.... entry fee based on skill level, but the top people most often come out on top.... the lower players are okay with this and still come out.

trob
10-17-2017, 04:22 AM
They should not, however in the pool world 'professional' is meaningless.

See golf...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_golfer

And there it is.. proís play in these amature eventís becuase they have no choice. They are trying to make ends meet and in the world of pro pool thatís touch. Pro golfers donít Play in local tournaments because they just donít have to.. they have a tour and real money to play for.

Madnecity
10-17-2017, 04:56 AM
This new ratings system has a major flaw. It doesn't reward good players for being good. There should be a max weight threshold. Otherwise, it's pure communism - the useless peasants hogtie the producers and rob them blind.

HawaiianEye
10-17-2017, 08:37 AM
Man up!

Whether I get beat or not, forget the spot.

In these tournaments, I'd rather play even with everybody...even if Earl is playing.

PoppaSaun
10-17-2017, 09:15 AM
This new ratings system has a major flaw. It doesn't reward good players for being good. There should be a max weight threshold. Otherwise, it's pure communism - the useless peasants hogtie the producers and rob them blind.

The rating system does reward good players for being good...their rating goes up.

What you are referring to is a 'handicapping' system...and none of us know what you are on about because no handicapping system has been mentioned.

FargoRate is a rating system. How someone uses that to handicap events has nothing to do with FargoRate. FargoRate does give statistics for what expected outcomes are when two players match up.

Oze147
10-17-2017, 11:52 AM
On first sight, I can see why amateurs could get frustrated because of a pro entering their local event- he is too strong and it is a bit unfair to the rest of the field.

But in reality this situation only matters to a handfull of players. The players who would have a chance to win if the pro doesn't enter. The majority of the field wouldn't have a chance anyway.
So let's say you forbid the pro to enter the event. Still most of the players don't have a realistic chance to win and the conditions are still unfair to them.
Everybody wants to win, right?
So now we should forbit the top five amateurs to enter, because there a better than the rest...and so on and so on...

My point is, that not the best players kill tournaments or local events, its the persuit for equality and not rewarding good players.

Carolina_Giant
10-17-2017, 12:07 PM
There's a local tournament here that often brings in guys like Shannon Daulton, Mike Davis, and Steve Moore. Yea, if one of those guys showed up, everyone knew we were playing probably for 4th place.

But everyone brought their A game. Those guys being their sifted the wheat from the chaff. And it was a lot of fun just to talk to them and hear their road stories, highlight moments, or just even share a laugh for a few hours.

That's why leagues were invented in the first place, to appeal to players who were too intimidated by or couldn't compete with better players to have a time where they could just have fun and pretend they were king or queen of the pool world.

All tournaments should be open format, and if you aren't willing to get better or be a punching bag while you learn, stay in the league pool.

poolpro2
10-17-2017, 12:29 PM
First, let me say. Where I am at we just don't have that many pros running around.
When I first started playing pool (Back in the day before the league explosion and You Tube). You would run into a player that was better, and probably loose.
To me, they were put on a list. In the beginning, that list was really long. Of course as I got better I started moving up that list.
If someone beats me, I want to beat them back, I have to get or play better to do it.
I am not one to ask for a spot (I won't necessarily turn down one if it is offered), I want to come back and beat them heads up.
Don't get me wrong, I love watching someone outrun the nuts and would like to find someone bad enough for me to try it one day. HAHA!
I am not challenging Shane, or other pros heads up. So if I can run into them at a tournament - that makes my day.
Having a pro shooting against you in a competitive situation is a monster learning experience.

I do hate it when you want to match up and the other persons first words are "What is your Fargo and league rating."
Sorry a little drift off here. I like different entry fees, as a solution.
If it is an open tournament anyone can play.

Wybrook
10-17-2017, 01:03 PM
Back when I was coming up in the game, there were very few handicapped tournaments. A couple of pool halls had one here and there, but essentially, most were open with no handicaps.

I got good fast and started winning these tournaments so I would play in bigger regional events, and eventually, the real events. To keep in practice, as there werent a lot of events going on, I had to play in local stuff.

Most of the people thought it was fine as I would have to give up the last 7 and the break to half the field, but I still managed to win my fair share. It was never a major issue if good players showed up as everyone had a good time and understood that "better" took time. I paid my dues every day, until finally they were paid back.

Step forward in time...every tournament is handicapped and people won't even consider playing unless they feel they have the biggest nuts. Gambling is harder to win as no one will play without massive spots. Open events are always held at the most inconvenient times, and sparingly at that.

A few years ago someone started an "open" mini-tour in Fl. I inquired as to my playing status and I was told I could play... Great! I went to the first event and it had a lot of really good players, but I was the favorite. I had a couple of fortunate rolls in the finals and I ended up winning... se la vi'

The next month, they had their 2nd event and I get up early and drive 2 1/2 hours to the pool hall.. When I get there, the roster already has 50 some players... I sign up and go talk to a bunch of friends and start hitting balls. About 20 minutes later, the director comes over and hands me back my entry ($40) and tells me I am no longer allowed to play in their events.

I asked why, as I played the first one and the event was "Open". 14 people requested their money back if I played. How's that for a bunch of nits?
The Director was wrong and so were the other people. It was a cheap tournament, it was called "Open" and it was for very little money..

I lost gas money, time and a tour I could play in. I think I left and went and played golf somewhere...

These days, there are only a couple of local and regional events that good players can play in. More and more are starting to let the better players in, and I am grateful for that, so I hope the trend continues.

PoppaSaun
10-17-2017, 01:56 PM
Back when I was coming up in the game, there were very few handicapped tournaments. A couple of pool halls had one here and there, but essentially, most were open with no handicaps.

I got good fast and started winning these tournaments so I would play in bigger regional events, and eventually, the real events. To keep in practice, as there werent a lot of events going on, I had to play in local stuff.

Most of the people thought it was fine as I would have to give up the last 7 and the break to half the field, but I still managed to win my fair share. It was never a major issue if good players showed up as everyone had a good time and understood that "better" took time. I paid my dues every day, until finally they were paid back.

Step forward in time...every tournament is handicapped and people won't even consider playing unless they feel they have the biggest nuts. Gambling is harder to win as no one will play without massive spots. Open events are always held at the most inconvenient times, and sparingly at that.

A few years ago someone started an "open" mini-tour in Fl. I inquired as to my playing status and I was told I could play... Great! I went to the first event and it had a lot of really good players, but I was the favorite. I had a couple of fortunate rolls in the finals and I ended up winning... se la vi'

The next month, they had their 2nd event and I get up early and drive 2 1/2 hours to the pool hall.. When I get there, the roster already has 50 some players... I sign up and go talk to a bunch of friends and start hitting balls. About 20 minutes later, the director comes over and hands me back my entry ($40) and tells me I am no longer allowed to play in their events.

I asked why, as I played the first one and the event was "Open". 14 people requested their money back if I played. How's that for a bunch of nits?
The Director was wrong and so were the other people. It was a cheap tournament, it was called "Open" and it was for very little money..

I lost gas money, time and a tour I could play in. I think I left and went and played golf somewhere...

These days, there are only a couple of local and regional events that good players can play in. More and more are starting to let the better players in, and I am grateful for that, so I hope the trend continues.

Congratulations, you found fourteen coward crybabies and a TD with no balls. :)

Seriously, tho, that is complete BS. I used to play competitive foosball, I was a upper-mid level player when the world #3 moved into my hometown. We always got him to the weekly tourneys held in the bars...and he was underage, so we actually had to get the bars to make concessions for him. Hell, if he wouldn't have been there, I would have never been able to say that I stuffed him on match ball in one event.

Tin Man
10-17-2017, 05:13 PM
The more I think about this conversation the more I realize that while I, personally, would prefer open tournaments, the real answer is that it's a free country and people are free to do what they want.

"Should" pros be allowed to rob amateur events? It's up to each individual. The tournament director gets to make decisions based on what they are trying to achieve. And the players get to decide whether they want to play.

Does the TD want the best of the best in their room for a premier event? Somehow Dave Coles runs a heck of a world class tournament in a pool room in Beloit WI, while here in Minneapolis MN our open tournaments died out 8 years ago. Does the TD want to draw new players into the game? Do they want to reward players that play in a league system they promote?

Do the players want to get better? Do they want a shot at a title or victory the likes of which they've never won before? Do they want money? Time at the table? An ego boost?

I don't want to run tournaments. I'm a busy guy with a job and a family and the time I have for pool I'd prefer to spend playing, not promoting. If there aren't any tournaments around my parts that are worth me playing then that's fine, I'll fly to the Open next week and drive to Beloit when those events are there. I personally choose not to play handicapped tournaments locally because it doesn't work for me.

I guess I think the word 'should' is the issue. TD's shouldn't have to do anything. Players shouldn't have to do anything. People get to do what they want. I personally think that it would be nice to have TD's run open tournaments, and it would be nice if players showed up to try to win them. But while I'm dreaming it would be nice if there was an organized pro tour, and if a top 100 player in the country could make six figures in winnings and sponsorships, and while we're at it a unicorn to ride to the pool hall.

Bottom line, things work the way they do, people do what they do. I applaud the few that step up and put in the time and energy to develop a vision of a better pool world and try to make that happen. For example Mike Page who had a vision of the best pool hall in the world and a universal rating system (although I miss the open tournaments up there while we're on the topic ;) ), or Pat Fleming for stepping up to keep the US Open running. But for me, since I'm not taking action I'll just accept that things are how they are and will be totally fine taking what comes. No reason to complain or think it ought to be different. If you're not going to change it then just roll with it.

Ched
10-17-2017, 10:40 PM
If you're an amateur pool player only playing for money, take the time you spend at a pool table and go to work at McDonald's you will be farther ahead!

Play for enjoyment, play for competition, play for self improvement, but don't play to make money! The hours spent getting good enough to make money is lost opportunity to make lots of money with a regular job! Stay in school kids!

Education is important but Pool is importanter! Lol

Ched <-- really - REALLY liked this post

Justin Bergman
10-17-2017, 10:53 PM
I would say if a guy is robbing a $5 tournament at the bar every week and is obviously 7 balls better than everyone than he should not be allowed to play imo. But if you are in a big city and run a monthly tournament $30 entry imo everyone should be allowed to play.

Yes, exactly that's like giving a handicap to poker players. All you have to do is look at the AzBilliards money list and than look at how much some guy will win for sandbagging APA 4 skill level in Vegas he will make about the same as the top 15 or 20 player in the world.

I get this all the time. There is a few tournaments around my area that are even handicapped, bar table, and don't pay great but it is something to do and maybe make a couple hundred if you get lucky, have them miss, and you play perfect than maybe you have a chance at winning.... Nope automatically I can't play so some guy that does not even care about pool ends up winning. He most likely will not come back to play, spend money, practice, or anything until the next monthly. IMHO I think its bad for pool but I'm not in charge.

Ched
10-18-2017, 01:26 AM
I'll be honest - I think there's some really great arguments on both sides here. As much as there have been a TON of great threads I've seen since getting here - this one may be the one that's made me "think" the most. (it's also made me rethink the "which azb member would you like to meet .. lol).

I still stand by my "do your homework" post and know who's going to be in a tournament. If you get totally hosed by a great player, let him know you appreciate his/her ability - who knows - s/he may even be willing to help ya out a bit. (edit: and act accordingly the next time you see him/her entered. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.) I guess the biggest question this thread begs is "Define Pro".

re MyTitle:
Ya know, between this forum, actually playing again, watching training vids, buying and reading books, and getting to know the "current' scene and players ... it's really cut into my watching TV time.

Ekojasiloop
10-18-2017, 01:59 AM
One of the biggest problems thereís no way to ever get around is the people who are going to gain by getting the better players out are always such passionate and persuasive aholes. Itís just one set of good players being replace by another. Itís all relative. Thatís why I think itís gotta be let everyone play ideally.

Maxx
10-18-2017, 06:00 AM
I was in Normal, IL for business a few weeks ago. I always take a cue with me and ask about pool halls. Ended up at Ride the Nine. A guy asked if I wanted to play in the Tuesday night tournament and I said sure.

One guy looked familiar but I couldn't place him. I finally figured out his the girl with him was Sarah Rousey and then the lightbulb went on, Jason Klatt.

He ended up beating me twice and I got a distant second. It was nice to play against him and Sarah, I don't know if they play often, but if I lived around there I definitely would be hitting up that tournament, trying to improve my performance against Jason. Both him and Sarah seemed very nice.

Second place paid for the entry, a few beers and a sandwich. All in all a good night.

Black-Balled
11-01-2017, 06:40 AM
The one offs aren't the issue though. It is the repeated wins of a far superior player that is the problem-maker.

How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

I was in Normal, IL for business a few weeks ago. I always take a cue with me and ask about pool halls. Ended up at Ride the Nine. A guy asked if I wanted to play in the Tuesday night tournament and I said sure.

One guy looked familiar but I couldn't place him. I finally figured out his the girl with him was Sarah Rousey and then the lightbulb went on, Jason Klatt.

He ended up beating me twice and I got a distant second. It was nice to play against him and Sarah, I don't know if they play often, but if I lived around there I definitely would be hitting up that tournament, trying to improve my performance against Jason. Both him and Sarah seemed very nice.

Second place paid for the entry, a few beers and a sandwich. All in all a good night.

Maxx
11-01-2017, 08:16 AM
I don't know how long I would go without ever cashing, that does get frustrating.
I do think I would keep playing, even if it is a race for second, but I would probably have something to say if the local tournament gets robbed by the same guy every week.

You're right!

pt109
11-01-2017, 09:02 AM
I feel spreading the prize money out could be a good solution....
...too much top-heavy payouts in this game.

In golf, the winner usually gets less than 20% of the total purse.
In pool, I hear a lot of requests for top-heavy payouts....
...by the players that think theyíre going to get them...:rolleyes:
..even though theyíre ensuring the tournamentís demise...itís akin to canabalism.

...and pick the top players and put a bonus on them....
...so that it becomes a mark of honor to overcome one...and profitable.

We need events that emphasize that getting better is a GOOD thing.

PoppaSaun
11-01-2017, 09:02 AM
The one offs aren't the issue though. It is the repeated wins of a far superior player that is the problem-maker.

How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

In my experience, it isn't the guys who never cash who cry and quit. It is the people who are threats to place or show and may win if the top one or two aren't there. They look for easier ways to win, so they go to weaker tourneys and try to rob them, like the guy who robbed their tourney.

The small fish know they are small fish and really don't care about the size of the pond if the tourney is well run and affordable for them.

The medium fish who used to look like big fish lose their $#!+ when a bigger fish comes to their pond and will look for a smaller pond.

PoppaSaun
11-01-2017, 09:05 AM
I feel spreading the prize money out could be a good solution....
...too much top-heavy payouts in this game.

In golf, the winner usually gets less than 20% of the total purse.
In pool, I hear a lot of requests for top-heavy payouts....
...by the players that think theyíre going to get them...:rolleyes:
..even though theyíre ensuring the tournamentís demise...itís akin to canabalism.

...and pick the top players and put a bonus on them....
...so that it becomes a mark of honor to overcome one...and profitable.

We need events that emphasize that getting better is a GOOD thing.

Disagree. Unlike golf, there is no added money in pool. If you spread out the payouts, it becomes the same as simply making the entry fee smaller. Nobody ends up making anything.

Socialist movements like that simply ensure that fewer people see much benefit.

couldnthinkof01
11-01-2017, 09:06 AM
How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

When I first started playing open tournaments I went almost a year of playing every week without winning a single match.

Another year before I cashed.

And at least a year after that before I won one.

Same couple players win every week. A rotatating group of about 5 or six players. Many by the same one or two.

Never bothered me I just kept working on my game.

If its an open tournament, anyone should be allowed to play.

If it says no pros and bergman is playing that would be suspect.

vapoolplayer
11-01-2017, 09:47 AM
In my experience, it isn't the guys who never cash who cry and quit. It is the people who are threats to place or show and may win if the top one or two aren't there. They look for easier ways to win, so they go to weaker tourneys and try to rob them, like the guy who robbed their tourney.

The small fish know they are small fish and really don't care about the size of the pond if the tourney is well run and affordable for them.

The medium fish who used to look like big fish lose their $#!+ when a bigger fish comes to their pond and will look for a smaller pond.


Yep.....most of the time anytime someone complains about someone ďrobbing,Ē itís because itís hindering their theft.....

vapoolplayer
11-01-2017, 09:51 AM
I feel spreading the prize money out could be a good solution....
...too much top-heavy payouts in this game.

In golf, the winner usually gets less than 20% of the total purse.
In pool, I hear a lot of requests for top-heavy payouts....
...by the players that think theyíre going to get them...:rolleyes:
..even though theyíre ensuring the tournamentís demise...itís akin to canabalism.

...and pick the top players and put a bonus on them....
...so that it becomes a mark of honor to overcome one...and profitable.

We need events that emphasize that getting better is a GOOD thing.

That wouldnít work either. Thereís not enough money to spread around. Youíd see good players stop showing up for tournaments that werenít right around the corner as the carrot isnít big enough.

There is nothing that can really be done to help pool until either people evolve back to watching pool or someone comes up with a billiard game that draws attention.

Everything else is just rearranging the cans before kicking them down the street

alphadog
11-01-2017, 12:30 PM
I believe the pro winning is way easier to accept if the pro carries themself in a dignified manner and has time for the dead money. If the pro doesnt win they need to lose with dignity.

Carolina_Giant
11-01-2017, 03:54 PM
I don't know how long I would go without ever cashing, that does get frustrating.
I do think I would keep playing, even if it is a race for second, but I would probably have something to say if the local tournament gets robbed by the same guy every week.

You're right!

We've run into this sometimes locally also. So a new rule was created: You win the weekly tournament, you have to sit out for a week. No splits allowed either, have to play the race out. It's been a great change so far.

Monthly's not much you can do there unless you wanted to implement a similar rule, but I feel like a month should be sufficient time to practice your game and get ready.

Baxter
11-06-2017, 10:43 PM
We had the Tournament of Champions over at Stiix Billiards in Ventura this past weekend. This is a biannual event that the room owner Jerry "Baby Huey" Matchin throws to give back to the local pool community. It's a handicapped event with a $25 entry that includes a free BBQ, door prizes, raffles, etc. Not your typical tournament. No one has been barred from participating.

This past weekend, Vilmos showed up to play. The place was buzzing, we had a legit pro playing in our little local shindig. We have a little calcutta with a $10 entry and a pill bottle to determine the picking order, highest finisher takes the entire pot. I drew #1, so of course I chose Vilmos. Well, this douchebag ran through the tournament, won the hot seat match, and forfeited with 8 players left because it was too early to chop and he didn't want to wait around. He showed up, robbed the place, and didn't even have enough respect to play out the tournament. Made us feel like a cheap ATM stop. Left a pretty bad taste in my mouth getting the shaft on the calcutta, but I felt worse for the room and everyone else.

I lost all respect I ever had for him.

vapoolplayer
11-06-2017, 10:51 PM
We had the Tournament of Champions over at Stiix Billiards in Ventura this past weekend. This is a biannual event that the room owner Jerry "Baby Huey" Matchin throws to give back to the local pool community. It's a handicapped event with a $25 entry that includes a free BBQ, door prizes, raffles, etc. Not your typical tournament. No one has been barred from participating.

This past weekend, Vilmos showed up to play. The place was buzzing, we had a legit pro playing in our little local shindig. We have a little calcutta with a $10 entry and a pill bottle to determine the picking order, highest finisher takes the entire pot. I drew #1, so of course I chose Vilmos. Well, this douchebag ran through the tournament, won the hot seat match, and forfeited with 8 players left because it was too early to chop and he didn't want to wait around. He showed up, robbed the place, and didn't even have enough respect to play out the tournament. Made us feel like a cheap ATM stop. Left a pretty bad taste in my mouth getting the shaft on the calcutta, but I felt worse for the room and everyone else.

I lost all respect I ever had for him.

Sounds like he needs to be barred(for being a douche, not his skill level).

Make a rule that you have to play out the tournament to get paid. Also, never let the winners side play so much faster so that you have that many still on the losers side.

Baxter
11-06-2017, 10:57 PM
Sounds like he needs to be barred(for being a douche, not his skill level).

Make a rule that you have to play out the tournament to get paid. Also, never let the winners side play so much faster so that you have that many still on the losers side.

He was spoken to by the room owner before he left. I'm sure there will be a rule change in future events of some sort. I don't mind playing pros, but the lack of respect was ridiculous.

Proofsc
11-08-2017, 04:35 PM
Where in the Northwest is this at? Since I play up here.

couldnthinkof01
11-08-2017, 05:14 PM
Where in the Northwest is this at? Since I play up here.

See Post #104