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TheSniper
11-15-2006, 01:40 AM
So I've heard a lot of things when this happens. Some say you have to jack up and shot this. Others say you have to be shooting at least 45 degrees from straight on. Others say you can shoot directly into the ball. Really I'm confused. I have a book that teaches you throw shots when the CB is frozen to OB but if this is a foul then why teach me it?

Anyway, what is the real ruling on this. I've never seen this come up watching pool on tv so I don't know.

Mystick Cue Fan
11-15-2006, 01:43 AM
So I've heard a lot of things when this happens. Some say you have to jack up and shot this. Others say you have to be shooting at least 45 degrees from straight on. Others say you can shoot directly into the ball. Really I'm confused. I have a book that teaches you throw shots when the CB is frozen to OB but if this is a foul then why teach me it?

Anyway, what is the real ruling on this. I've never seen this come up watching pool on tv so I don't know.


If they are completely frozen than you can shoot right through the ball. If they are super close but not touching than you most likely have to shoot away. You can jack up and all that but you can't shoot though the ball like it was frozen. Hope this helps.

Tony

mikepage
11-15-2006, 05:52 AM
So I've heard a lot of things when this happens. Some say you have to jack up and shot this. Others say you have to be shooting at least 45 degrees from straight on. [...]

Nonsense on this issue is found everywhere, some of it codified in various league rule sets.

Here's the last word on the subject ;-)

Go into a bar or many non-"players" pool rooms around the country and watch someone plow his stick straight through a cueball and a close object ball sending both down the table at a similar speed.

In some places, you'll hear, "good shot." That's nonsense.

In some places you'll hear, "foul. That's a push!" That's nonsense too.

In some places you'll hear "It's not a foul if you jack up." More nonsense.

The shot is a foul for a very specific reason: the tip hit the cueball twice. It's a double-hit foul. Many people for a long time have called this a "push" shot, but a push shot (also a foul) is something different (more on that later).

Pool rooms are full of people with superhuman hearing that claim to detect double hits by hearing them. They too speak nonsense. The way you detect a double hit is by action of the cueball. When the balls are frozen, you may stroke straight through because there is in that case no double hit. It's the gap that caused the double hit.

Just like the presumption of innocence in the US legal system, there is a presumption in pool that nothing is frozen. (this includes ball to ball and ball to cushion). Innocent until proven guilty; not frozen until proven frozen. If you see the cueball is frozen to the object ball, then you must declare them frozen and give your opponent (the ref) the opportunity to agree or disagree.

I highly recommend that if you are around people you are not sure know the rules and your opponent agrees they are frozen, you say, "because they are frozen I may stroke straight through." This way if there is going to be argument it happens before the shot.

There is also a "push shot" foul. What is it?

I'm not certain I have ever--in my entire pool playing career--seen a push
shot. It is unfortunate that this obscure foul goes by the same name that
people most every place I've been incorrectly use to describe double hits.

An illegal push shot (not to be confused with a legal roll out (aka push) in
9-ball) is a wierd duck. It is when you jam the cueball between the tip
and either the table or a rail and slowly squeeze in such a way that the
tip stays in contact with the cueball for an unusually long time. It's
rare.

This confusion is not about to go away, imo. I think it would be wise for
the powers that be (are there powers that be?) to invent a new name for
the push shot foul --maybe a squush shot. Yeah that's it --a SQUUSH SHOT.

chefjeff
11-15-2006, 06:54 AM
Nonsense on this issue is found everywhere, some of it codified in various league rule sets.

Here's the last word on the subject ;-)

Go into a bar or many non-"players" pool rooms around the country and watch someone plow his stick straight through a cueball and a close object ball sending both down the table at a similar speed.

In some places, you'll hear, "good shot." That's nonsense.

In some places you'll hear, "foul. That's a push!" That's nonsense too.

In some places you'll hear "It's not a foul if you jack up." More nonsense.

The shot is a foul for a very specific reason: the tip hit the cueball twice. It's a double-hit foul. Many people for a long time have called this a "push" shot, but a push shot (also a foul) is something different (more on that later).

Pool rooms are full of people with superhuman hearing that claim to detect double hits by hearing them. They too speak nonsense. The way you detect a double hit is by action of the cueball. When the balls are frozen, you may stroke straight through because there is in that case no double hit. It's the gap that caused the double hit.

Just like the presumption of innocence in the US legal system, there is a presumption in pool that nothing is frozen. (this includes ball to ball and ball to cushion). Innocent until proven guilty; not frozen until proven frozen. If you see the cueball is frozen to the object ball, then you must declare them frozen and give your opponent (the ref) the opportunity to agree or disagree.

I highly recommend that if you are around people you are not sure know the rules and your opponent agrees they are frozen, you say, "because they are frozen I may stroke straight through." This way if there is going to be argument it happens before the shot.

There is also a "push shot" foul. What is it?

I'm not certain I have ever--in my entire pool playing career--seen a push
shot. It is unfortunate that this obscure foul goes by the same name that
people most every place I've been incorrectly use to describe double hits.

An illegal push shot (not to be confused with a legal roll out (aka push) in
9-ball) is a wierd duck. It is when you jam the cueball between the tip
and either the table or a rail and slowly squeeze in such a way that the
tip stays in contact with the cueball for an unusually long time. It's
rare.

This confusion is not about to go away, imo. I think it would be wise for
the powers that be (are there powers that be?) to invent a new name for
the push shot foul --maybe a squush shot. Yeah that's it --a SQUUSH SHOT.

Thanks, Mike.

And if they are not touching, then the rule is: the cueball cannot go through (OR is it INTO) the place where the object ball was....correct? We are just now getting this rule into place in our VNEA leagues.

I had this happen on the last two nights of league. The first one was where the CB and OB were verrrry close, but not touching. My opponent, Rick Golden, a very knowlegable and good player agreed that I could hit the grouping at a 45 degree angle (up OR across). So I first showed him the 45 degree angle that I was going to use and I hit it across (no elevation of cue butt) at 45 degrees, got the throw effect and potted the ball. He was OK with that.

Then Monday night, the OB and CB were touching. My opponent claimed the 45 degree rule. I protested, but had never seen the rule in print, so I was going to concede the 45 degree thingy, but HIS teammates overruled him. :) So I did the straight-through shot that involved about 5 interference balls. I called the hanger in the corner, thinking the CB would make it, but one of the five clustered balls made it to the hanger and in it went!:D

Jeff Livingston

Cory in DC
11-15-2006, 07:45 AM
(snip)
Then Monday night, the OB and CB were touching. My opponent claimed the 45 degree rule. I protested, but had never seen the rule in print, so I was going to concede the 45 degree thingy, but HIS teammates overruled him. :) So I did the straight-through shot that involved about 5 interference balls. I called the hanger in the corner, thinking the CB would make it, but one of the five clustered balls made it to the hanger and in it went!:D

Jeff Livingston

Good answers, Mike. On the general subject of "you can stroke straight into the CB if the CB and OB are frozen", be sure to see http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

Cory