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duke@neo.rr.com
11-17-2006, 09:18 PM
you know, I'm finding more and more here, and even elsewhere, that a cue being called "straight" is getting more and more subjective. my thought used to be either a cue is straight or it isn't...end of story. now after doing deals here and elsewhere, there is more flexibility than I ever thought when it comes to a cue being straight or not. why is that? I always thought a cue had to roll perfectly for it to be considered straight...in other words, no deviation in taper roll, or any roll for that matter. maybe I'm just too picky when it comes to this stuff, but I need my cues to roll like they should...NO variance in taper, and the ferrule never leaving the felt. definitely not the joint leaving the felt! if a shaft has a LITTLE taper roll, its workable, but when there is enough to where one side of the taper touches the table, I'm sorry, but its no longer straight to me! you guys' thoughts on this would be appreciated, cause I'd really like to know what you guys consider to be straight, and what you consider to be not straight. fill me in, cause I'm used to cues having no variation even in taper. thanks in advance, Jeff

Chris Byrne
11-17-2006, 09:51 PM
To me when the cue is new there should be no wobble anywhere. Used cues usally have some minor visible wobble in the center of the shaft when your eye is near the felt looking at it. I will accept minor shaft wobble as straight on a trade in cue but, if the center of the shaft touches the felt on one side and the other shows a gap I don't consider that straight. No cue with a joint or ferrule raising off a table should be considered straight. Unless it is just dirty joint faces causing it and it still isn't considered straight untill the faces have been trued and verified the cue rolls straight.
I find my definition of straight is more strict than alot of peoples that I deal with. CB.

duke@neo.rr.com
11-17-2006, 09:54 PM
To me when the cue is new there should be no wobble anywhere. Used cues usally have some minor visible wobble in the center of the shaft when your eye is near the felt looking at it. I will accept minor shaft wobble as straight on a trade in cue but, if the center of the shaft touches the felt on one side and the other shows a gap I don't consider that straight. No cue with a joint or ferrule raising off a table should be considered straight. Unless it is just dirty joint faces causing it and it still isn't considered straight untill the faces have been trued and verified the cue rolls straight.
I find my definition of straight is more strict than alot of peoples that I deal with. CB.

tap, tap, tap...my kind of answer, man!! good rep points coming your way for this answer.

BarenbruggeCues
11-17-2006, 10:17 PM
you know, I'm finding more and more here, and even elsewhere, that a cue being called "straight" is getting more and more subjective. my thought used to be either a cue is straight or it isn't...end of story. now after doing deals here and elsewhere, there is more flexibility than I ever thought when it comes to a cue being straight or not. why is that? I always thought a cue had to roll perfectly for it to be considered straight...in other words, no deviation in taper roll, or any roll for that matter. maybe I'm just too picky when it comes to this stuff, but I need my cues to roll like they should...NO variance in taper, and the ferrule never leaving the felt. definitely not the joint leaving the felt! if a shaft has a LITTLE taper roll, its workable, but when there is enough to where one side of the taper touches the table, I'm sorry, but its no longer straight to me! you guys' thoughts on this would be appreciated, cause I'd really like to know what you guys consider to be straight, and what you consider to be not straight. fill me in, cause I'm used to cues having no variation even in taper. thanks in advance, Jeff

Straight is straight..............if it has movement that can be seen with the naked eye when rolling on a table.... that cue is not straight. Now, what is accepted as being playable(and/or fixable) is matter of personal opinion.
I actually believe in two classifications of straight though. Straight and Dead nuts straight. Maybe just because I'm a little older and my eye sight is a little weaker. DNS is when it is put between centers and it don't run out a lick!! Those get stamped .......DNS.
Just some of my thoughts on the matter..........

Rod
11-17-2006, 11:50 PM
Touchy subject with me. The latest term taper roll can be anything. Personally I think it was invented by a cue maker to justify roll-out in a shaft. At least one cue maker wrote an article on it, so I'm told.

There needs to be a standard (in inches/thousandths) not just the term taper roll. Hell if it's got roll-out/run-out then it isn't straight.

There is no shortage of sellers and dealers in the for sale section not to mention several cue makers. Lets not forget those cue makers that don't post here either - no matter who they are.

To me as above, dead nuts straight is can not see ANY shaft wobble rolled on the table. In a lathe that would be less than a couple of thousandths. Near Straight might have say .006 to .008. It's not looking good .010 and above. At .020 to me you can use it as firewood so toss that banana in the fire. If a shaft rolls so bad one side touches the table thats way beyond .020. That pup is warped big time.

We all have our limits. To some, at some point, the shaft is not serviceable. A problem I see with some guys selling cues on the forum is they have no way to measure other than by eye. Either that or they may and won't state exact numbers. If you ask specifics on other measurements many can't answer, once again because they don't have dial indicator calipers.

I'd think anyone selling cues should be able to tell the buyer (if they ask) certain dimensions, like butt, joint, and shaft taper etc. All I can say is I ask up front, if I get an acceptable answer I may buy. At this point it is buyer beware because you haven't a clue what the seller considers acceptable. That seller as I said includes everyone. Cue makers, dealers and sellers.

Many of you guys know a lot more cue makers than me. I'd suggest the next time you speak to them ask what their version of straight really is. Hopefully it's dead nuts straight, however wood does move so a few thousands could easily be serviceable. Maybe one day it's possible we could have a standard set with some discussion. That would be great, then it's up to you to buy or not.

I'll always ask for shaft size. I'd like to know joint size and taper as well. I'll ask for diameter at the front of wrap and at the rear. Those are most critical to me.

Personally I see/we see cues put up for sale and someone jumps on it because it's pretty or has noted maker. I think those days are going to slip away to a degree because of better informed buyers. We expect more for our hard earned money than receiving sub standard equipment. Be informed, ask questions, if the seller sidelines the question then don't buy. Ever purchase you make whether it be a house ,car, a home stereo, computer etc. normal people want answers. Jeez some cues can cost way more than other things you buy. You did your research then, why differ with cues?

Rod

Fuji-whopper
11-17-2006, 11:59 PM
Post

Rod


I agree with what Rod said, but how do you measure the straightness of a shaft and at what points? To me a shaft should be within a certain tolerance, but there is no standardized method of measurement which I think causes people to be unhappy with otherwise "acceptable" shafts.

The same goes for butts, where and what tolerance is right? Does anyone have a standard, including production makers, that they go by?

Rod
11-18-2006, 12:18 AM
I agree with what Rod said, but how do you measure the straightness of a shaft and at what points? To me a shaft should be within a certain tolerance, but there is no standardized method of measurement which I think causes people to be unhappy with otherwise "acceptable" shafts.

The same goes for butts, where and what tolerance is right? Does anyone have a standard, including production makers, that they go by?

I made a jig, it's a Appx 28" board with a block of wood glued to each end. Those wood blocks have V groove cut in them, the shaft turns inside those groves. I already owned a magnetic base and dial indicator so it's just a matter of turning the shaft while the indicator measures run-out.

You could do the same with a butt, but I just eye ball them usually. I want the butt diameters stated above because that tells me if I like the size/taper of the handle. I don't like small butts! LOL

Rod

Gerry
11-18-2006, 04:50 AM
I traded cues with another AZer and was told it was "straight", it isn't, but not bad enough for me to chuck a spaz! the strange thing is the shaft is fine, the butt is fine, but the handle section has a slight (1/32) warp. Together the cue rolls clean except that little bit at the handle.

Should I have done something? not in this case because it's not that bad, and the cue is a Schon with a superb hit IMO.

Next time I'll ask a few more "things" :D

Gerry

Pinocchio
11-18-2006, 04:58 AM
Right. Straight is straight. Crooked is crooked. Any variance in roll where the daylight under the cue changes when rolled on table, in my opinion is crooked. Many shafts are cut slightly egg-shaped. If measured with calipers by going around the shaft, there will be quite a variance in dimensions. I won't play with one like that. I would rather have a rice burner that is totally straight than one that has any kind of roll, period!
When people say that a cue has this and shaft has that but shouldn't affect play, i think that is total bull.

Pinocchio

Sore_Aintya
11-18-2006, 06:26 AM
...the handle section has a slight (1/32) warp. Together the cue rolls clean except that little bit at the handle.



Gerry


A friend of mine had a old "Captain Hook" cue that had a real bad warp in the handle area. He sold it to another friend of ours because he loved the "hooks" on it (fishing nut).
The guy took a damp hand towel, wrapped it around the handle and placed the butt in a bow press (used for restringing compound bows).

Two days lather the warp gone.

Nothing I would try with a $1000+ cue but it did work. 6 years later and the cue is still straight.

Craig Fales
11-18-2006, 07:44 AM
Straight is straight...meaning no runout at all...as far as a little bow in the shaft it might not affect playability it's easy to get a shaft dead nuts straight...no runout on a butt is acceptable to me...for shafts if it's old a little would be acceptable...I don't send any shafts out that have any 'taper wobble' or warp and I seal all of them....
________

BarenbruggeCues
11-18-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure I understand the term......taper roll or taper warp?

I do understand egg shaped though and it isn't a good thing!!
Myself....I would rather have a cue slightly not straight but round over an eggshaped one that is DNS.

In my mind I'm thinking even if the butt and the shaft both had cigar shaped tapers for some unknown reason they should still roll smooth and straight if they are straight. Maybe in this case..... apart they may have a different roll but there are ways to adjust for that when checking. Put something under one end, long and flat, to slightly elevate one end of the shaft or butt off the table surface. When screwed together they should roll on the two highest points of both tapers and show any movement from there.

Take your jig with the v grooves for checking just one step farther and put two small wheels of some type at both ends close enough too form the v.
That way you can spin the shaft or butt by hand and get a look at these similiar to putting between centers. Works best if the wheels have very loose type bearings to spin them easy.