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berlowmj
11-19-2006, 01:13 AM
Your assistance on technique has made my breaking practice extremely efficient. Now there is the question of a break cue. I had a phenolic tip mounted on my extra Players shaft. It explodes the balls nicely, but I miscue if I do not hit the center of the CB precisely & English to avoid a scratch is out of the question. I spend a great deal of time chalking it.

Today I used a 22 oz Valley cue with a thicker shaft (on sale at the pool hall) & I got equal explosion with greater forgiveness on the center CB hit & was able to experiment with English without miscueing. Where do I go from here?

I do not want to abuse my Universal shaft which serves me well on my other shots.

GADawg
11-19-2006, 02:07 AM
One word - Varney

RiverCity
11-19-2006, 03:57 AM
I just had Kevin Varney do a break cue for me. Should be shipping first of next week. Looking very forward to it! :D
Chuck

VIProfessor
11-19-2006, 06:34 AM
Today I used a 22 oz Valley cue with a thicker shaft (on sale at the pool hall) & I got equal explosion with greater forgiveness on the center CB hit & was able to experiment with English without miscueing. Where do I go from here?

I do not want to abuse my Universal shaft which serves me well on my other shots.

22 ounces? Now obviously, your preference will carry the day regarding what type and weight of break cue you will buy, and I don't know what weight cue you play with, but I suggest that unless you are a huge person, you may do better with a lighter break cue. When I was growing up I believed, like many, that a heavier break cue, having more mass, would translate to higher speeds on my break. However, scientific studies by people like Bob Byrne and Bob Jewett awakened the pool world to the fact that for most people, this just isn't so!

As you may remember from high school physics, momentum equals speed times mass. Therefore if two cues are traveling at the same speed, the heavier one will transfer more energy to the cue ball. The problem is that most of us cannot generate enough stick speed with a 21 or 22 oz. cue to create this additional momentum. For most people, the higher speed generated with an 18 or 19 oz. cue actually creates greater momentum (thus more cue ball speed) than can be generated with a heavier cue. For this reason, the break cue carried by most pros and top players are the same weight or lighter than their playing cues. Try it out and let me know how it goes!

dave fingers
11-19-2006, 03:10 PM
One word - Varney


I agree, Varney is the man when it comes to break cue performance.

ridewiththewind
11-19-2006, 03:16 PM
Not to detract from Kevin's ability to build an awesome break cue, but the X-Breaker is certainly one amazing break cue!! The tip holds chalk very well, the cue feels very solid and controls the CB on the break...usually winding up mid-table. This cue has actually improved my break overall, even when not using it! Worth every penny, IMHO.

Lisa

ioCross
11-19-2006, 03:21 PM
have you tried breaking with a lower weighted cue? speed is more important than mass when it comes to breaking. ive used the new break cues, tried the xbreaker a few times and honestly i prefer my 18.5 scruggs SP with a hard triangle tip over any break cue i've used.

the most important part of breaking is hitting flush on the one ball, using stop or center on the cueball, and making sure you're using a full stroke to hit it. a smooth followthrough with less strength can break the balls a hell of a lot better then just trying to smash the rack every chance you get.

a good break is when you have a decent spread and the cueball somewhere near the middle of the table. for you to accomplish that, all you really need to do is hit the rack hard enough to spread the balls out. if you hit the rack with unnessesary hardness it just inreases your chances of losing the cueball, having the cueball fly off the table or scratch.

i just wanna elaborate a little bit more on using a full stroke on the break. you NEED to follow through on the break. a lot of people have this weird stop stroke when they break, and they never move thier body. you want to use your body as part of the momentum when you break, so after you initially hit the cueball (always making sure to aim at dead center of the ball you're breaking into) make sure you are following through.

RiverCity
11-19-2006, 03:21 PM
X-breaker.... Worth every penny, IMHO.

Lisa
Werent you given yours for free? :eek: :D
Chuck

Cornerman
11-19-2006, 04:03 PM
Your assistance on technique has made my breaking practice extremely efficient. Now there is the question of a break cue. I had a phenolic tip mounted on my extra Players shaft. It explodes the balls nicely, but I miscue if I do not hit the center of the CB precisely & English to avoid a scratch is out of the question. I spend a great deal of time chalking it.

Today I used a 22 oz Valley cue with a thicker shaft (on sale at the pool hall) & I got equal explosion with greater forgiveness on the center CB hit & was able to experiment with English without miscueing. Where do I go from here?
.Well... judging from everything you actually wrote, and the results you've seen, might I suggest to tear that phenolic tip off and put on a hard leather tip? I don't think you need to buy a new break cue.

Fred

ioCross
11-19-2006, 04:05 PM
or just start playing one pocket, so you dont need to spend any money on a break cue :)

playablue
11-19-2006, 06:08 PM
or just start playing one pocket, so you dont need to spend any money on a break cue :)


I love 1- pocket... i have run out 10 times ever it....its so hard to do. I have been playing it for a couple months now. Makes you really appreciate 9 ball

Irish634
11-19-2006, 06:28 PM
I just had Kevin Varney do a break cue for me. Should be shipping first of next week. Looking very forward to it! :D
Chuck


Me too... Mine is in the works as we speak. Will most likely be selling my Stinger shortly after my Varney arrives.

Craig

ioCross
11-19-2006, 06:31 PM
I love 1- pocket... i have run out 10 times ever it....its so hard to do. I have been playing it for a couple months now. Makes you really appreciate 9 ball


an 8 and out in one hole is a wonderful thing to behold.

Cornerman
11-19-2006, 07:10 PM
an 8 and out in one hole is a wonderful thing to behold.

I've played all of three one-pocket tournaments in my life. Two Derby City, and one very informal. My two shutout 8-and-outs came in these tournaments. I can't imagine what would happen if I actually had a clue how to play the game.

Fred <~~~ thinks the original poster should love his hijacked thread

berlowmj
11-19-2006, 10:57 PM
Which hard leather tip would you suggest?

ioCross
11-19-2006, 11:57 PM
hard triangle works the best. plus it doesnt wear nearly as fast as lepros.

Cornerman
11-20-2006, 06:57 AM
Which hard leather tip would you suggest?

Personally, I think any. But, that being said, the hard leather tip I had on my Gilbert chipped. So, I put on a hard Talisman WB. I think Mike Webb just told me this weekend he breaks with a Hercules tip.

I'm on the fence with phenolic tips in general. For jumping, they're the bomb. But for breaking, I'm just not sure if there's a real advantage. The hard breakers are still breaking hard. The weak breakers are still breaking weakly. The controlled breakers are still breaking with control. And the non-control breakers are still breaking all over the place.

Fred

inthezone
11-20-2006, 08:27 AM
Personally, I think any. But, that being said, the hard leather tip I had on my Gilbert chipped. So, I put on a hard Talisman WB. I think Mike Webb just told me this weekend he breaks with a Hercules tip.

I'm on the fence with phenolic tips in general. For jumping, they're the bomb. But for breaking, I'm just not sure if there's a real advantage. The hard breakers are still breaking hard. The weak breakers are still breaking weakly. The controlled breakers are still breaking with control. And the non-control breakers are still breaking all over the place.

Fred
Back to pivot points....
I break with a BK-2 and thru my own testing have found the PP for the break shot to be right around 13.5" as Predator's site says - do to the throw effect at the one-ball about 1.5" needs to be added to the actual PP. A Sledgehammer for example, then would be around 10.5" according to Platinum's #'s.

A neat thing about this on the break is if the player bridges at the "break-shot" PP, aligns perfectly, and keeps the bridge perfectly still thru the hit, then the CB should "stun" at the one-ball even if the cue is rotated and the CB struck to the left or right of center.

Another interesting factoid about a steady bridge - if the effective PP is at 12.5" and the player bridges there and aligns correctly, but during the stroke the bridge moves say to the right just 1/8", the error compounds x4 and the miss at the one-ball is about 1/2" to the left of center.

I like the Phenolic tip because I believe it is faster and it holds it's shape.

Steve

Andrew Manning
11-20-2006, 08:42 AM
The Mace by Rick Howard. One of my league teammates has one, and every time I break with it, I wish I could justify spending the money to upgrade to one. However since I already have a sledgehammer j/b which I really like, I just can't see how buying a better break cue is an effective use of my hard-earned dollars.

-Andrew

Hierovision
11-20-2006, 08:56 AM
I've had a Varney for several weeks now and I can definitely tell you it spreads them nicely and I have yet to miscue. I have a girl on my team who CAN'T stay down and she constantly miscued with our captains break stick (mcdermott). She's started using mine during matches and has yet to miscue. I wrote a review: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=43410&page=2&highlight=cheap%2Feffective
about 3/4 of the way down the page.

bnall
11-20-2006, 10:50 AM
I've had a Varney for several weeks now and I can definitely tell you it spreads them nicely and I have yet to miscue. I have a girl on my team who CAN'T stay down and she constantly miscued with our captains break stick (mcdermott). She's started using mine during matches and has yet to miscue. I wrote a review: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=43410&page=2&highlight=cheap%2Feffective
about 3/4 of the way down the page.

I would check with Varney Cues on here. I have 2 of Varney's jump/break cues. You cant go wrong with one of his break jump cues. Heres my Varney review: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=32668

xidica
11-20-2006, 11:32 AM
22 ounces? Now obviously, your preference will carry the day regarding what type and weight of break cue you will buy, and I don't know what weight cue you play with, but I suggest that unless you are a huge person, you may do better with a lighter break cue. When I was growing up I believed, like many, that a heavier break cue, having more mass, would translate to higher speeds on my break. However, scientific studies by people like Bob Byrne and Bob Jewett awakened the pool world to the fact that for most people, this just isn't so!

As you may remember from high school physics, momentum equals speed times mass. Therefore if two cues are traveling at the same speed, the heavier one will transfer more energy to the cue ball. The problem is that most of us cannot generate enough stick speed with a 21 or 22 oz. cue to create this additional momentum. For most people, the higher speed generated with an 18 or 19 oz. cue actually creates greater momentum (thus more cue ball speed) than can be generated with a heavier cue. For this reason, the break cue carried by most pros and top players are the same weight or lighter than their playing cues. Try it out and let me know how it goes!

TAP TAP TAP. Completely and totally correct and spot on. Rep points! :D

Hierovision
11-20-2006, 11:38 AM
The same applies to baseball bats. I was a stubborn little slugger in grade school and wanted the heavy bats. I tried a lighter bat once and that proved it beyond any doubt for me personally.
I use a 19.5 or thereabouts for breaking and it definitely feels better than my 21 oz. Viking which I used to break with.
I ordered the Viking a few years ago and still play with it... can't wait to get my 19 from Varney :( I can't get it soon enough

inthezone
11-20-2006, 12:08 PM
22 ounces? Now obviously, your preference will carry the day regarding what type and weight of break cue you will buy, and I don't know what weight cue you play with, but I suggest that unless you are a huge person, you may do better with a lighter break cue. When I was growing up I believed, like many, that a heavier break cue, having more mass, would translate to higher speeds on my break. However, scientific studies by people like Bob Byrne and Bob Jewett awakened the pool world to the fact that for most people, this just isn't so!

As you may remember from high school physics, momentum equals speed times mass. Therefore if two cues are traveling at the same speed, the heavier one will transfer more energy to the cue ball. The problem is that most of us cannot generate enough stick speed with a 21 or 22 oz. cue to create this additional momentum. For most people, the higher speed generated with an 18 or 19 oz. cue actually creates greater momentum (thus more cue ball speed) than can be generated with a heavier cue. For this reason, the break cue carried by most pros and top players are the same weight or lighter than their playing cues. Try it out and let me know how it goes!
Excellent point - well said.

I will add my 2 cents here; cb speed goes up linearly with cue speed, that is, twice the cue speed = twice the cb speed. But twice the weight at the same speed does not = twice the cb speed; in fact the maximum cb speed is twice the cue speed and that would only be attainable with no loss of energy in the collision and an infinitely heavy cue.

Steve

Snapshot9
11-20-2006, 12:24 PM
A break cue is an investment, and price doesn't not always equal quality.
How much are you willing to invest in your game? Do you just settle or do you want more from your game. Can you run out, but just can't get a good break most of the time so you can?

Depending on how you answered the questions, and depending on if you are willing to put some work into your break, then a break cue may or may not be for you.

If you are strong (and you know if you are or not), and coordinated, then moving a break cue should not be that big of a problem. Most speed lost in breaking is due to technique.

Personally, I like the phenolic ferrule/tip for breaking and jumping. It puts the snap into your break, and I have actually slowed my break down from before I had a break cue. It allows me to concentrate on technique and accuracy of hit, which improves my consistency in breaking.

If you are a little unsure what to do, just buy one of the J&J break/jump cues from Chrisonline (I highly recommend him - excellent service) for $60, shipping included like I did (my 2nd J&J although 1st from different supplier), and try it for awhile. $60 is pretty cheap, and I think you will be surprised with it. Plus, it has a 14mm tip, which is better for breaking and jumping, improves accuracy.

I have found that if you stay within a quarter size of dead center on a cue ball when hitting it with the break cue, it does just fine.

BTW, I play with a 20.2 oz and my break cue is 19.5 oz.

SCCues
11-20-2006, 12:36 PM
have you tried breaking with a lower weighted cue? speed is more important than mass when it comes to breaking. ive used the new break cues, tried the xbreaker a few times and honestly i prefer my 18.5 scruggs SP with a hard triangle tip over any break cue i've used.

the most important part of breaking is hitting flush on the one ball, using stop or center on the cueball, and making sure you're using a full stroke to hit it. a smooth followthrough with less strength can break the balls a hell of a lot better then just trying to smash the rack every chance you get.

I agree with your assessment on break cues. I've tried many different cues to break with and different weights also.

I tried a heavy break cue and I didn't get the speed on my stroke that I get with a 19oz or less break cue. Around 19ozs seems to work well for me and I concentrate on a smooth stroke to hit the one ball solid more than on a maximum power stroke where I lose the cue ball more often. If the balls are racked tightly they will open up with a nice smooth stroke.

I use a phenolic ferrule/tip shaft on my break cue and it works well for me, but I think a regular shaft with a hard leather tip will work well also and it's easier to control the cue ball with the leather tip IMO.

ridewiththewind
11-21-2006, 01:46 PM
Werent you given yours for free? :eek: :D
Chuck

Well, this is true...and I am grateful to Charlie for the gift...totally unexpected, and very much appreciated.:D

I had been considering purchasing one beforehand, just didn't have the available disposable income to do it...because I had heard great things, and had gotten to try one out. Perhaps what I should have said was, in my opinion, this break cue is worth the price...just in the additional time it allows you to stay at the table alone. Seems to drop balls like it's nothing.:D

Lisa

Hierovision
11-21-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm wondering if anyone here has tried both a varney J/B and an x-breaker?

ridewiththewind
11-21-2006, 02:14 PM
I would be curious as well.

X Breaker
11-21-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm wondering if anyone here has tried both a varney J/B and an x-breaker?
May be Tiffany Nelson? :D

Tiffany Nelson later introduced Kelly Fisher to the X Breaker, for that I really appreciate.

About leather tip, we have a special leather tip that we invented. I am building a X breaker with this new X leather tip for Yang of Chinese Taipei now.

This leather tip is almost as hard as a linen phenolic tip(if you press with your nail, you will not be able to leave any mark on the surface of the tip), yet it is made of leather. About chipping, I have not had any complain regarding that yet, mind you, I only build this for pro players who were playing on the IPT when I first started.

Richard

MattRDavis
11-21-2006, 02:41 PM
22 ounces? Now obviously, your preference will carry the day regarding what type and weight of break cue you will buy, and I don't know what weight cue you play with, but I suggest that unless you are a huge person, you may do better with a lighter break cue. When I was growing up I believed, like many, that a heavier break cue, having more mass, would translate to higher speeds on my break. However, scientific studies by people like Bob Byrne and Bob Jewett awakened the pool world to the fact that for most people, this just isn't so!

As you may remember from high school physics, momentum equals speed times mass. Therefore if two cues are traveling at the same speed, the heavier one will transfer more energy to the cue ball. The problem is that most of us cannot generate enough stick speed with a 21 or 22 oz. cue to create this additional momentum. For most people, the higher speed generated with an 18 or 19 oz. cue actually creates greater momentum (thus more cue ball speed) than can be generated with a heavier cue. For this reason, the break cue carried by most pros and top players are the same weight or lighter than their playing cues. Try it out and let me know how it goes!

Allow me to interject here; not to interrupt the complex meeting of scientific minds but to offer a converse opinion.

Anyone who tells you that you have to use a lighter cue is an idiot.

Anyone who tells you that you have to use a heavier cue is an idiot.

Science has proven that dogs' mouths are 98% cleaner than humans but I should hope that nobody here contends that we should just stop brushing our teeth altogether and just lick our own asses instead.

Break with the cue that is comfortable for you and don't let any popular theory mumbo jumbo put the hoodoo on you. I break with a 23oz cue and not a day goes by that some old timer or young blood doesn't look at me like I brought a Hustler to Lilith fair. It's comfortable for me, and it works for me.

Listen all you want to opinions but at the end of the day the only one that amounts to anything in this matter is your own.

-Matt

Cornerman
11-21-2006, 04:03 PM
Allow me to interject here;
Anyone who tells you that you have to use a lighter cue is an idiot.

Anyone who tells you that you have to use a heavier cue is an idiot.

Break with the cue that is comfortable for you and don't let any popular theory mumbo jumbo put the hoodoo on you.

I agree 100%. What I believe started out a couple of decades ago as "don't discount using a lighter cue for breaking" or "a heavier cue isn't always the best for breaking" has turned into "lighter is better." Lighter isn't better necessarily. The optimum break cue for anyone has everything to do with the individual and how he breaks. That could mean that the optimul break cue could be lighter OR heavier depending on the individual.

And everytime someone quotes an energy equation from Physics 101, invariably something from Physics 102 will contradict it.

Fred

buddha162
11-21-2006, 04:08 PM
I've had a Varney for several weeks now and I can definitely tell you it spreads them nicely and I have yet to miscue. I have a girl on my team who CAN'T stay down and she constantly miscued with our captains break stick (mcdermott). She's started using mine during matches and has yet to miscue. I wrote a review: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=43410&page=2&highlight=cheap%2Feffective
about 3/4 of the way down the page.

That's a great piece of goncalo alves. Love the subtle figuring...

-Roger

MattRDavis
11-21-2006, 04:15 PM
The way I see it, this situation:

Someone walks into your local poolhall and sees you breaking with a 22oz break cue. They say, "Don't you know studies have shown that breaking with a lighter cue gives you a better break?"

Is equivalent to this situation:

Someone sits next to you in the cafeteria and sees you eating a ham sandwich with Swiss cheese. They say, "Don't you know studies have shown that ham sandwiches with American cheese are more tasty?"

In both situations the indicated alternative is very obviously a personal preference.

-Matt

9Ball_JJ
11-21-2006, 04:21 PM
X Breaker...Nuff said!!

inthezone
11-21-2006, 04:25 PM
And everytime someone quotes an energy equation from Physics 101, invariably something from Physics 102 will contradict it.

Physics 102 contradicting Physics 101 ?....:confused:

That that is is, that that is not is not, that that is is not that that is not, therefore that that is not is not that that is. ;)

buddha162
11-21-2006, 04:37 PM
X Breaker...Nuff said!!

Certainly the best breakcue I've ever used, and now with Samsara onboard a cue that is worth every cent of the asking price.

Huge improvements in fit/finish and wood selection on the newer Xbreakers.

-Roger

VIProfessor
11-21-2006, 04:43 PM
I agree 100%. What I believe started out a couple of decades ago as "don't discount using a lighter cue for breaking" or "a heavier cue isn't always the best for breaking" has turned into "lighter is better." Lighter isn't better necessarily. The optimum break cue for anyone has everything to do with the individual and how he breaks. That could mean that the optimul break cue could be lighter OR heavier depending on the individual.

And everytime someone quotes an energy equation from Physics 101, invariably something from Physics 102 will contradict it.

Fred

I believe that a bit of clarification may be in order. If you read my post carefully you will see that I suggested that ultimately personal preference carries the day in cue selection. You will also notice that my statement was that the player MAY do better with a lighter break cue, and that I repeatedly used the terms "most of us" or "most people" to qualify my statments. Finally, you will note that my comment did not address the matter of which is the BEST weight for any player, but simply addressed the matter of achieving maximum speed. We all know that there are factors other than cue ball speed that determine the outcome of the break shot. Depending on how a player breaks, what he may need is to actually slow the swing and the speed down in order to achieve more control and accuracy.

The point is that I am not attempting to advocate or impose rigid criteria for break cue weight, and I certainly do not wish to become involved in a lengthy "elbow drop vs. set-pause-freeze" type debate (you know the one I mean). I believe that we have both seen enough pool played to know that there are many different physical approaches to the game and that there are, in fact, very few hard and fast rules as to how each individual player should stroke the ball and thus, what equipment is best for him/her. What works for one player might not work for another. We must acknowledge, however, that both theory and emprical data support the contention that MOST people generate greater cue ball speed with a 18-20 oz. cue than with a 21-23 oz. cue. Don't take my word for it--if you can get your hands on a radar gun you can conduct your own experiments with various players. In the end, though, we certainly agree that it comes down to one thing--what's comfortable and works for you!

Peace,
VIProfessor

MattRDavis
11-21-2006, 04:50 PM
In the end, though, we certainly agree that it comes down to one thing--what's comfortable and works for you!

Absolutely, I agree. I didn't mean to single you out by quoting you above but I thought it was a decent springboard for conversation, and I certainly didn't mean to offend.

The gentleman had already expressed that with a 21oz cue he had better control and equal power so I wanted to let him know that other people had had similar experiences.

-Matt

VIProfessor
11-21-2006, 05:21 PM
Absolutely, I agree. I didn't mean to single you out by quoting you above but I thought it was a decent springboard for conversation, and I certainly didn't mean to offend.

The gentleman had already expressed that with a 21oz cue he had better control and equal power so I wanted to let him know that other people had had similar experiences.

-Matt

No problem, bro! After all, we're all a bunch of pool addicts seeking the Holy Grail of dead stroke, so we've got to hang together--or hang separately.

Peace,

VIProfessor

X Breaker
11-21-2006, 06:38 PM
Certainly the best breakcue I've ever used, and now with Samsara onboard a cue that is worth every cent of the asking price.

Huge improvements in fit/finish and wood selection on the newer Xbreakers.

-Roger
Thank you, Roger.

Samsara makes a heck of a cue and I am very proud to be associated with them.:)

Richard