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View Full Version : KICKING/FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH~~by Bernie Friend


8-ball bernie
11-19-2006, 08:24 PM
just thought i'd share some thoughts on kicking,for what it's worth.
to me kicking is more sensible than jumping. true it depends on the lie of the shot,yes, but all in all, it's much wiser to kick,than jump. it's a better chance of doing something positive with the object ball, be it playing a safe,or making it,with jumping,there is a lot of danger that goes with being a "hero" with that in mind,let's jump,exuse me let's go to kicking. now, there are players out there, especially from japan,that use different types of mathmatical diamond systems,the problem with that,is ,you have to rely on diamonds and humidity,and cloth,etc.etc. this leaves you with a lot of guess work,which usually cancels out the math you just calculated,so i suggest,kicking by feel and sight,rather than a "system"

a method i like to use, is the "right" and "wrong" method i made up. it goes like this~ look to see where the object ball is you need to hit, then look at the first cushion you intend to hit,go too deep,and know it's wrong,then go too shallow and know it's wrong, then divide the difference,and fine tune it, and there is your kicking answer.
another thing i discovered regarding kicking is this, 95% of the time, it's easier to use more cushions than just one. sometimes it's true one cushion is easier, but for the most part, it's much, much easier to use two three or even four or more cushions to make the hit,or pot.
finally, where you calculate the hit on the first cushion and where it comes off on the last cushion is the most important thing,meaning, almost FORGET! about the second cushion for it's almost meaningless!
if you really want to learn first hand about kicking,and what is possible,check out world class 3-cushion billiard players,you will be enlightened,and amazed.
hope this helps,Bernie Friend IPT player.

td873
11-19-2006, 11:08 PM
to me kicking is more sensible than jumping.
The truth of the matter is that all shots are necessary and should be practiced to a certain level of competency. To simply say that jumping is not sensible is like saying "playing everything with top is more sensible since the cue ball doesn't have to reverse course."

Players have to have all the tools in their bag in order to be a great. That is, aspiring players (9-ball in particular)should be able to kick, jump, and masse - as those shots will all have their place. Practicing each of these is a necessary evil in the pool world. [9-ball because offense is critical, but in other games, defense should be stressed as well (i.e., one-pocket)]. The better your OVERALL game, the harder you will be to beat. If you leave out jumping, you will have a weakness to exploit, and any weakness will be evident over the long run.

Also, in my opinion, a proficient coach would never tell their students to bypass jumping because kicking is more sensible. Instead, they would teach them that there is no one "right" way, but there are definitely percentages. Then the coach would give them the knowledge to use the tools to their best advantage.

FWIW, all the great players today can kick AND jump.

-td <-- they still make jump cues don't they...

sjm
11-20-2006, 04:27 AM
FYI, there are three basic shot choices when you are snookered: kick, jump, and masse. Most good players are proficient in all three. You have offered next to nothing in your post about how one should approach shot selection when snookered and your "trial by error" approach to kicking is absurd.

Nonetheless, you also write "if you really want to learn first hand about kicking,and what is possible,check out world class 3-cushion billiard players." This is excellent advice.

ABall
11-20-2006, 04:58 AM
The truth of the matter is that all shots are necessary and should be practiced to a certain level of competency. To simply say that jumping is not sensible is like saying "playing everything with top is more sensible since the cue ball doesn't have to reverse course."

Players have to have all the tools in their bag in order to be a great. That is, aspiring players (9-ball in particular)should be able to kick, jump, and masse - as those shots will all have their place. Practicing each of these is a necessary evil in the pool world. [9-ball because offense is critical, but in other games, defense should be stressed as well (i.e., one-pocket)]. The better your OVERALL game, the harder you will be to beat. If you leave out jumping, you will have a weakness to exploit, and any weakness will be evident over the long run.

Also, in my opinion, a proficient coach would never tell their students to bypass jumping because kicking is more sensible. Instead, they would teach them that there is no one "right" way, but there are definitely percentages. Then the coach would give them the knowledge to use the tools to their best advantage.

FWIW, all the great players today can kick AND jump.

-td <-- they still make jump cues don't they...

You hit the nail right on the head. It's about PERCENTAGES!!!!!!!! Great players are more consistant with everything, not only because of excecution, but because of their shot choice given the situation.

cuetechasaurus
11-20-2006, 05:20 AM
Bernie, your post really doesn't make much sense.

About the kicking systems and conditions (i.e. humidity), all you have to do is test the table and see how long or how short the table is playing, and adjust to that. Lets say the table is playing half a diamond short, then you adjust accordingly, by halves, thirds, quarters, etc.

APA7
11-20-2006, 05:24 AM
just thought i'd share some thoughts on kicking,for what it's worth.
to me kicking is more sensible than jumping. true it depends on the lie of the shot,yes, but all in all, it's much wiser to kick,than jump. it's a better chance of doing something positive with the object ball, be it playing a safe,or making it,with jumping,there is a lot of danger that goes with being a "hero" with that in mind,let's jump,exuse me let's go to kicking. now, there are players out there, especially from japan,that use different types of mathmatical diamond systems,the problem with that,is ,you have to rely on diamonds and humidity,and cloth,etc.etc. this leaves you with a lot of guess work,which usually cancels out the math you just calculated,so i suggest,kicking by feel and sight,rather than a "system"

a method i like to use, is the "right" and "wrong" method i made up. it goes like this~ look to see where the object ball is you need to hit, then look at the first cushion you intend to hit,go too deep,and know it's wrong,then go too shallow and know it's wrong, then divide the difference,and fine tune it, and there is your kicking answer.
another thing i discovered regarding kicking is this, 95% of the time, it's easier to use more cushions than just one. sometimes it's true one cushion is easier, but for the most part, it's much, much easier to use two three or even four or more cushions to make the hit,or pot.
finally, where you calculate the hit on the first cushion and where it comes off on the last cushion is the most important thing,meaning, almost FORGET! about the second cushion for it's almost meaningless!
if you really want to learn first hand about kicking,and what is possible,check out world class 3-cushion billiard players,you will be enlightened,and amazed.
hope this helps,Bernie Friend IPT player.


Sorry Bernie, U don't know what UR talking about again. What U described is what people who dont know how to kick figure the kicks out but is the worst method. The diamonds are there for a reason. U use them as a starting point and adjust from that baseline.

U should stay away from instruction tips, U do more damage than good.

Brian

MrLucky
11-20-2006, 05:44 AM
Sorry Bernie, U don't know what UR talking about again. What U described is what people who dont know how to kick figure the kicks out but is the worst method. The diamonds are there for a reason. U use them as a starting point and adjust from that baseline.

U should stay away from instruction tips, U do more damage than good.

Brian

I am by no means a kick expert, but I am getting better and working on them so it is a good usefull tool in my box when needed! I use the diamonds and the X technique to judge this has helped me tremendously when in matches, trying to run more rails then neccessary is to me not easier but just adding more problems to a already difficult shot!:confused: !

TommyT
11-20-2006, 05:52 AM
Little Joe Villapando's Pool IQ on kicking is a source of VALUABLE info. It's a DVD with the Behnke family and Joe.

TommyT

Black-Balled
11-20-2006, 06:51 AM
... This is excellent advice.

Somebody thinks highly of himself!;)

Nick B
11-20-2006, 07:37 AM
Hey Bernie,
Did you think your idea was original? I'm just wondering why you included your name in the title?

Nick "Not a IPT Player" B

Voodoo Daddy
11-20-2006, 07:38 AM
just thought i'd share some thoughts on kicking,for what it's worth.
to me kicking is more sensible than jumping. true it depends on the lie of the shot,yes, but all in all, it's much wiser to kick,than jump. it's a better chance of doing something positive with the object ball, be it playing a safe,or making it,with jumping,there is a lot of danger that goes with being a "hero" with that in mind,let's jump,exuse me let's go to kicking. now, there are players out there, especially from japan,that use different types of mathmatical diamond systems,the problem with that,is ,you have to rely on diamonds and humidity,and cloth,etc.etc. this leaves you with a lot of guess work,which usually cancels out the math you just calculated,so i suggest,kicking by feel and sight,rather than a "system"

a method i like to use, is the "right" and "wrong" method i made up. it goes like this~ look to see where the object ball is you need to hit, then look at the first cushion you intend to hit,go too deep,and know it's wrong,then go too shallow and know it's wrong, then divide the difference,and fine tune it, and there is your kicking answer.
another thing i discovered regarding kicking is this, 95% of the time, it's easier to use more cushions than just one. sometimes it's true one cushion is easier, but for the most part, it's much, much easier to use two three or even four or more cushions to make the hit,or pot.
finally, where you calculate the hit on the first cushion and where it comes off on the last cushion is the most important thing,meaning, almost FORGET! about the second cushion for it's almost meaningless!
if you really want to learn first hand about kicking,and what is possible,check out world class 3-cushion billiard players,you will be enlightened,and amazed.
hope this helps,Bernie Friend IPT player.


Although your feeble attempt to help is noble, what you know about pool could fit inna thimble and still have room for the chinese army...give us all a rest.

DaveK
11-20-2006, 08:21 AM
... a method i like to use, is the "right" and "wrong" method i made up.

Hey Bernie, if you want to learn some real kicking methods, have a look at the Deadaim threads. I've posted this several times before, and will continue to do so as it is great material and are some of the best instructional posts ever on AZ Billiards (imo).

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9114 Intro
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9115 Part 1
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9121 Part 2
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9146 Part 3
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9148 Part 4
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9150 Part 5
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9166 Part 6
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9167 Part 7
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9168 Part 8
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9170 End


Dave

tigerallenyim
11-20-2006, 09:24 AM
The truth of the matter is that all shots are necessary and should be practiced to a certain level of competency. To simply say that jumping is not sensible is like saying "playing everything with top is more sensible since the cue ball doesn't have to reverse course."

Players have to have all the tools in their bag in order to be a great. That is, aspiring players (9-ball in particular)should be able to kick, jump, and masse - as those shots will all have their place. Practicing each of these is a necessary evil in the pool world. [9-ball because offense is critical, but in other games, defense should be stressed as well (i.e., one-pocket)]. The better your OVERALL game, the harder you will be to beat. If you leave out jumping, you will have a weakness to exploit, and any weakness will be evident over the long run.

Also, in my opinion, a proficient coach would never tell their students to bypass jumping because kicking is more sensible. Instead, they would teach them that there is no one "right" way, but there are definitely percentages. Then the coach would give them the knowledge to use the tools to their best advantage.

FWIW, all the great players today can kick AND jump.

-td <-- they still make jump cues don't they...
Yep... Three Cushion Rocks!

Jude Rosenstock
11-20-2006, 09:39 AM
Well, aside from the confusion behind the original post, I find kicking to be less and less an important aspect in one's game. There was a time when proficiency was important but with the advances in modern jump-cues, a lot of new players simply neglect kicking and frankly, it's barely noticed.

For the record, I do consider myself to be above-average in kicking and, if given the choice, I would take every jump-cue in the world and use them as firewood. They are a bastardization of the game and one step removed from scooping the ball. In sum, I hate them.

However, with all that said, the new jump-cues are excellent in what they do. They can jump over almost anything and seem to be getting better year after year. It truly is the greatest advance in billiard equipment in the 21st century, without a doubt. Because of this, the approach to kicking is altered dramatically. A lot of kicks simply aren't the highest percentage shot anymore.

rackmsuckr
11-20-2006, 10:10 AM
Well, aside from the confusion behind the original post, I find kicking to be less and less an important aspect in one's game. There was a time when proficiency was important but with the advances in modern jump-cues, a lot of new players simply neglect kicking and frankly, it's barely noticed.

For the record, I do consider myself to be above-average in kicking and, if given the choice, I would take every jump-cue in the world and use them as firewood. They are a bastardization of the game and one step removed from scooping the ball. In sum, I hate them.

However, with all that said, the new jump-cues are excellent in what they do. They can jump over almost anything and seem to be getting better year after year. It truly is the greatest advance in billiard equipment in the 21st century, without a doubt. Because of this, the approach to kicking is altered dramatically. A lot of kicks simply aren't the highest percentage shot anymore.

I totally agree. I rarely get 3-fouled and I like my kicking game. But Saturday, I was playing some cheap 8-ball games with a self-professed "road player" and right away I got him stuck 4 games in 8-ball. He narrowed it down to 1-ahead twice and then I pulled back to 4 both times.

On the chance for me to go ahead 5 games, I hit a rail shot on the bottom rail on my last stripe and as soon as I hit it, I knew it was a skootch too much and I fully hooked myself on the 8 and also left myself on the rail. The 8 ball was in the middle of the table, but dead straight in. (He had all his balls still on the table, but I don't remember where they were.)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3GNAj4HBKB3PbNl@

I will jump if the cueball is not that far out and usually if the ball is hanging and I don't see an easy path for the kick or if the cueball afterwards won't have good position after the kick.

Anyway, I did jump it, bringing me to 5 ahead. It seemed to take the stuffing out of my opponent and I got to 9 ahead before he quit me.

So all the skills, as has been said, are necessary in your arsenal. I have used the masse' to great effect many times as well, although I suck at full masse's. I will leave that to the trick shot artists. ;)

pimp
11-20-2006, 10:45 AM
I haven't replied to anything in the main forum to much but I just have to thank Bernie for trying to give some helpful advice to us lesser players. Unfortunatly I think his advice missed the mark. I actually think my Pool IQ went down after reading his method. Thanks Bernie, thanks to you I went from a A player to a B player in a matter of a few sentences. :(

1pRoscoe
11-20-2006, 07:43 PM
I was playing some cheap 8-ball games with a self-professed "road player"
Who was this? And you still have action from me anytime....

rackmsuckr
11-20-2006, 08:18 PM
Who was this? And you still have action from me anytime....

Yeah, when you're not running out the door! :D I understand you have a baby at home now though. Some guy from Wenatchee, Ryan? He keeps looking for the big guns to lose his money to, when he can lose it to someone at my level. He has lost to Raul, Atwell, James Davee, and was looking for Eddie Mataya, but won't play Mike. :confused:

vagabond
11-20-2006, 08:19 PM
Well, aside from the confusion behind the original post, I find kicking to be less and less an important aspect in one's game. There was a time when proficiency was important but with the advances in modern jump-cues, a lot of new players simply neglect kicking and frankly, it's barely noticed.


I depend upon my kick shots and the kick shots rescue me in some critical situations in one pocket.I can kick like a Missouri Mule.Lately I have been working on one rail kick into the object ball and the object ball has to hit two rails and then has to get into or stay near my pocket.:cool:

1pRoscoe
11-20-2006, 08:26 PM
Yeah, when you're not running out the door! :D I understand you have a baby at home now though. Some guy from Wenatchee, Ryan? He keeps looking for the big guns to lose his money to, when he can lose it to someone at my level. He has lost to Raul, Atwell, James Davee, and was looking for Eddie Mataya, but won't play Mike. :confused:

It was MIDNIGHT on a worknight and that was a few months ago!! You still have action from me anytime...

Don't know who he is... where does he hang out around here?

rackmsuckr
11-20-2006, 09:27 PM
It was MIDNIGHT on a worknight and that was a few months ago!! You still have action from me anytime...

Don't know who he is... where does he hang out around here?

OK, babe, you got it! ;)

Don't know where he hangs out. We were at our usual Friday night soiree at Mike's Place in Renton. (And Saturday.) I think he was only on the road for a week, or til his money ran out or until his wife called him back. :p

1pRoscoe
11-20-2006, 10:03 PM
OK, babe, you got it! ;)

Don't know where he hangs out. We were at our usual Friday night soiree at Mike's Place in Renton. (And Saturday.) I think he was only on the road for a week, or til his money ran out or until his wife called him back. :p
$50+ sets (5/7) this week? 9ball is good... or $50/game 1p if you'd like.

PoolFool
11-23-2006, 11:08 AM
Did you think your idea was original? I'm just wondering why you included your name in the title?
This is because Bernie is full of himself and needs to pat himself on the back. He's so proud to have been an IPT player that he must include it all the time to remind everyone that he WAS on the tour. He should be writing, FORMER IPT PLAYER.
U should stay away from instruction tips, U do more damage than good.
Although your feeble attempt to help is noble, what you know about pool could fit inna thimble and still have room for the chinese army...give us all a rest.
I actually think my Pool IQ went down after reading his method. Thanks Bernie, thanks to you I went from a A player to a B player in a matter of a few sentences. :(
These three quotes are priceless to me. It's what I have been saying forever! If only Bernie could see that he knows nothing, then he would in reality know something.

cuesrus
11-23-2006, 09:27 PM
Bernie,

STOP POSTING ABOUT ACTUAL POOL PLAYING!!! I actually liked the IPT, on the road stuff about you hanging out with real players and pretending to be one. I am sure Efren listened intently when you explained your complicated kicking systems! NOT...
Was Sigel eager to hear about your breaking techniques! NOPE...
Maybe you could try my Szamboti and hit some 30mph break shots! Absolutely NOT...
I want to hear about the audience laughter when you couldn't get out with ball in hand on the eight. Now that is good stuff.
Actually, being mostly a spectator, that got to bang it around every now and then,free practice time, best seat in the house-watching world class pool (as long as you weren't at the table)--- and you got paid!! What a country....

chilli66
11-24-2006, 01:01 AM
Am I the only one who thought Bernie was trying to be helpful?

Damn.

I must be:

a) Drunk
b) Feeling very generous
c) Drunk
d) Dyslexic
e) Drunk

Hmm. Not sure, but the answer may well begin with a D.