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Jason Robichaud
11-22-2006, 10:21 AM
Has anyone here witnessed a top level player (professional) do things during a match that could be called a foul however, nothing is called. I watched a great player use hand powder to mark the table for position, point of reference when kicking, and line for shape. When the table got tough you could see the powder routine coming. Just curious if this is a regular occurrence, acceptable, or just ignored. Coming from snooker, I call everything on myself and couldn’t imagine marking a table. Once when I stopped looking down the line of shots I started placing the chalk on the line to the pocket. I would stand on the line (behind the ball facing pocket), chalk my cue and put the chalk down on the rail. It wasn’t an aiming aid just something to nip laziness. I had a player bring this to my attention that it could be called a foul, so I stopped. When I saw a top level pro mark the table I wondered why nothing was called…

Has anyone notice people play in this grey area and why is it allowed.

JayBates
11-22-2006, 10:42 AM
cant remember the oponent but earl strickland did it. the 5 was almost frozen to the cue ball and he was trying to kick at the 4 ball....he hit the 5 first and rolled it about an inch but the ref was behind him and didnt see the foul....earl clearly knew he fouled but said "well if the ref didnt see it?" or something like that. lost respect for the guy after i saw that....no disrespect for his tallent, just him.
Jay

Tristan
11-22-2006, 10:42 AM
While what you're describing does happen, it is the exception, not the rule -- at least in pro tournaments. All kind of things go down in amateur tourneys and when gambling.

Are you saying that snooker players never bend the rules? I find that hard to believe.

--
Tristan

Jude Rosenstock
11-22-2006, 10:49 AM
Wow, this looks like a thread with a lot of potential!!!!

Seriously, you're going to see it in pool just like you see it in any other sport. Look no further than the World Series (baseball) and Kenny Rogers (pitcher for the Detroit Tigers, not the singer).

Everyone can feel free to participate in such a discussion but bear in mind that most professionals either lurk here or have friends that do so it will get back to them.

CrownCityCorey
11-22-2006, 10:53 AM
Has anyone here witnessed a top level player (professional) do things during a match that could be called a foul however, nothing is called. I watched a great player use hand powder to mark the table for position, point of reference when kicking, and line for shape. When the table got tough you could see the powder routine coming. Just curious if this is a regular occurrence, acceptable, or just ignored. Coming from snooker, I call everything on myself and couldn’t imagine marking a table. Once when I stopped looking down the line of shots I started placing the chalk on the line to the pocket. I would stand on the line (behind the ball facing pocket), chalk my cue and put the chalk down on the rail. It wasn’t an aiming aid just something to nip laziness. I had a player bring this to my attention that it could be called a foul, so I stopped. When I saw a top level pro mark the table I wondered why nothing was called…

Has anyone notice people play in this grey area and why is it allowed.

Hell yes!!!

Gaffing the rack (for themselves or against you), moving balls, slow-play, extended bathroom breaks, breaking with the cue ball in front of the headstring and more (all of which are punishable in a Pro-Event). :eek:

Though some of it can be considered "gamesmanship" virtually all the top players are masters of this without getting caught! :cool:

No Joke!

There just aren't enough refs for this stuff to be enforced.

Sweet Marissa
11-22-2006, 11:19 AM
When John Schmidt was playing Marcus Chamat at last year's WPC, John called a push, which Marcus acknowledged. The ref then called a foul, asking Marcus if he had heard John call a push out. He said no. John then packed his cues and left in disgust.

Blatant cheating and he lost a lot of respect from both fans and players with that move.

Al-fahl Amir
11-22-2006, 12:22 PM
cant remember the oponent but earl strickland did it. the 5 was almost frozen to the cue ball and he was trying to kick at the 4 ball....he hit the 5 first and rolled it about an inch but the ref was behind him and didnt see the foul....earl clearly knew he fouled but said "well if the ref didnt see it?" or something like that. lost respect for the guy after i saw that....no disrespect for his tallent, just him.
Jay

I think that was against Charlie Williams in the Skins game.

suckershot
11-22-2006, 12:26 PM
cant remember the oponent but earl strickland did it. the 5 was almost frozen to the cue ball and he was trying to kick at the 4 ball....he hit the 5 first and rolled it about an inch but the ref was behind him and didnt see the foul....earl clearly knew he fouled but said "well if the ref didnt see it?" or something like that. lost respect for the guy after i saw that....no disrespect for his tallent, just him.
Jay

The opponent was Charlie Williams. That video is on YouTube somewhere.

JayBates
11-22-2006, 12:33 PM
yeah....im glad he lost....blatently cheeting like that is no excuese....congrats to charlie for keeping his composure and winning. i would have been too pissed to play
Jay

BRKNRUN
11-22-2006, 12:35 PM
I saw a bloopers tape of a pro match where the guy broke the balls and made one...He surveyed the table for a few minutes, then picked up the CB and moved it a few inches from where it was and proceeded to run out without anyone taking notice.

bsmutz
11-22-2006, 12:55 PM
I don't know what goes on in the lower levels of snooker, but at the championship level I'd have to say that snooker players are much more honest than the typical pool player. I've seen them call fouls on themselves for barely touching a ball that no one else saw. I've also seen them have the referee move a ball to a worse position when respotting the balls after a foul shot in an effort to make sure the balls are repositioned correctly. Of course, there is a referee present throughout the match, so it could be different when there isn't one (but I tend to not think so). It just seems more like a gentlemen's game than pool is over here.

pwd72s
11-22-2006, 01:07 PM
Okay, you've convinced me that there may be cheating at pool. Just don't try to tell me that pro wrestling is fake.:rolleyes:

Get_A_Grip
11-22-2006, 01:12 PM
When I first started off playing in tournaments many years ago, I was shocked that when I got down to my last 4 balls to win my match with a pro...that ALL OF A SUDDEN...the guy starts to ask me questions about the weather...

The guy didn't say a word to me up until then. I think that he was mad that I had an 8-ball break the game before...and he was about to lose to a beginner... The conclusion...I started talking to him...lost my focus...and blew an easy runout of the last few balls...he got me!

Because I was new to the game, I didn't think anything of it at the time...but later on...I realized that he was just trying to distract me...(in what seemed at the time like just an innocent conversation)...

I later also remembered another younger kid playing the pro...and saying to the TD during their game, "<Insert Name> is sharking me!"...so I think that it was a habit with him...

bobroberts
11-22-2006, 01:51 PM
Its not cheating unless you get caught.When you are playing for money you have to expect that these things will happen.In every sport opposing players try to draw fouls, is that still cheating.Its just the nature of the beast.

Aaron_S
11-22-2006, 02:06 PM
cant remember the oponent but earl strickland did it. the 5 was almost frozen to the cue ball and he was trying to kick at the 4 ball....he hit the 5 first and rolled it about an inch but the ref was behind him and didnt see the foul....earl clearly knew he fouled but said "well if the ref didnt see it?" or something like that. lost respect for the guy after i saw that....no disrespect for his tallent, just him.
Jay

I think this has been discussed on here before (ad nauseum), but the question of whether this was technically "cheating" or not is somewhat debateable. Not to defend Earl, because I personally feel that many of the things he has done are indefensible, but the argument for him in this particular case was that, in a match with a referee, the ref, not the players, is responsible for calling the fouls. That being said...

Do I think he should have called the foul on himself? Absolutely. Do I think that many other pros, including his opponent, would have called the foul on themselves? Yes. Did I lose a lot of respect for him when I saw that? Yes. Was it cheating? It's not clear to me whether it was or not, but I can see both sides of that argument.

I do know this, though, Charlie handled it a lot better that I would have. :mad: :)

thecalhounflash
11-22-2006, 02:08 PM
pool is what pool is people are going to do what it takes to win and some people have to cheat. but the only one i ever caught was a local plays pretty good but not great he was shooting on the 4 and the 5 was frozen to the point in the side he was jacked up over the 5 and when he hit the cue ball he just let the cue down on the 5 to move it i called a foul but he said he did not touch it so i just said ok. what else can you do action is rare around here.

Snapshot9
11-22-2006, 02:13 PM
Especially if they play for big money. Some players don't do somethings, but they can be put into a situation where they will - like playing a 500+ set, and they only have 1 barrel left in their pocket, then they will.

I have played several guys that I know for 50 and 100 in a friendly type set and everything is fine. Some of them if we get to 2-300 a set, then I have to watch them close. And you never trust someone you don't know.

I noticed in the IPT tournaments that several players were breaking with the cue on the headstring, when they were suppose to have the cue ENTIRELY behind the headstring.

I would be willing to bet there isn't a real good player out there, amateur or pro, that hasn't 'racked' their opponent at one time or another.

my advice:
1) Stay alert and focused on the game, not things or people around you.
2) Don't assume anything.
3) Check everything.
4) Don't be predictable.

Sweet Marissa
11-22-2006, 02:23 PM
All I have to say is... you don't see this lack of sportsmanship in golf.

Fuji-whopper
11-22-2006, 02:23 PM
Let's not forget sharking, to me that's as big a form of cheating as moving a ball. Either intentionally or not we are all guilty to some degree, I believe that 99% of what is said around a pool table is just not necessary.

Two words should be said during the course of play: push, foul

Some people like Earl consider it a shark if you say "nice shot" during his run, and to a degree he's right. My favorite is when people state the obvious between turns, like when someone says "I didn't mean to do that" when they scratch.

JoeyInCali
11-22-2006, 02:39 PM
In the immortal words of Earl, " the ref didn't see it".
I saw a match between two local pros.
One pro called a foul. Everyone in attendance heard him say it.
The other pro pretended to not have heard him ( he didn't look him in the eye ). As soon as the other player picked up the cueball he went, " What are you doing?"

trueblu8
11-22-2006, 02:47 PM
I think this has been discussed on here before (ad nauseum), but the question of whether this was technically "cheating" or not is somewhat debateable. Not to defend Earl, because I personally feel that many of the things he has done are indefensible, but the argument for him in this particular case was that, in a match with a referee, the ref, not the players, is responsible for calling the fouls. That being said...

Do I think he should have called the foul on himself? Absolutely. Do I think that many other pros, including his opponent, would have called the foul on themselves? Yes. Did I lose a lot of respect for him when I saw that? Yes. Was it cheating? It's not clear to me whether it was or not, but I can see both sides of that argument.

I do know this, though, Charlie handled it a lot better that I would have. :mad: :)
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyoaEq2-IPQ. I especially liked after Charlie won he still shook Earl's hand but then gave him that look of disgust, and dumb ass Earl's still trying to explain it away. What a jerk is right.

elizabeth
11-22-2006, 02:58 PM
cant remember the oponent but earl strickland did it. the 5 was almost frozen to the cue ball and he was trying to kick at the 4 ball....he hit the 5 first and rolled it about an inch but the ref was behind him and didnt see the foul....earl clearly knew he fouled but said "well if the ref didnt see it?" or something like that. lost respect for the guy after i saw that....no disrespect for his tallent, just him.
Jay
I would have to say you are mistaken.First of all Earl would NEVER say well if the ref didnt see it and who did he say that to?Your post makes no sense at all.

Fuji-whopper
11-22-2006, 03:00 PM
Here we go again.....................^^^^^

elizabeth
11-22-2006, 03:02 PM
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyoaEq2-IPQ. I especially liked after Charlie won he still shook Earl's hand but then gave him that look of disgust, and dumb ass Earl's still trying to explain it away. What a jerk is right.
In over 15 years I have never seen any pro call a foul on themseves.It sounds like all you are trying to do is bash Earl.

elizabeth
11-22-2006, 03:02 PM
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyoaEq2-IPQ. I especially liked after Charlie won he still shook Earl's hand but then gave him that look of disgust, and dumb ass Earl's still trying to explain it away. What a jerk is right.
In over 15 years I have never seen any pro call a foul on themseves.It sounds like all you are trying to do is bash Earl.

Cuebacca
11-22-2006, 03:28 PM
Here we go again.....................^^^^^

LOL, before this thread gets too focused on this, here's the link to the 9-PAGE THREAD on Earl's Foul:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=34901

:eek: :eek: :eek:

suckershot
11-22-2006, 03:39 PM
In over 15 years I have never seen any pro call a foul on themseves.It sounds like all you are trying to do is bash Earl.

It was made sort of well-known that George Breedlove called a foul on himself in an IPT qualifier, I believe it was even the final match of said qualifier, which at the time was thought to be worth a substantial amount of money, potentially.

I am not going to get into the argument over whether people should call fouls on themselves. We already had that discussion in the other thread which I believe has been linked above.

But how noble of George to call a foul on himself.

Jason Robichaud
11-22-2006, 05:29 PM
This was not intended to become an Earl thread. Not necessarily looking for “should people call fouls on themselves” we all know the moral answer to that. Tristan, every sport has people that will do anything to win including cheating. Snooker is not exempt. I do find a game of snooker is played by gentlemen’s rules more than pool. I have called shirt fouls on myself playing for fun or $$ and have seen others do the same. This is the norm not the exception in snooker. I believe most pool players want an honest win and the chance at a feel good bragging right victory. I have witnessed many players show excellent sportsmanship in both pool and snooker. Cheaters are the minorities!!!

I was quite shocked though when I saw one of the top players in the world marking the table. You would think thousands of hours of practice would place them above this tactic. I haven’t had the chance to see many high level players compete and was curious why this was allowed.

The wiping of the table, pushing the finger and twisting on the rail and pushing the cue tip up to the ball marking the table…this was very disappointing for a first time pro observer. It was like I just asked a drunk to play for a beer on a local beat-up coin-op table.

rackmsuckr
11-22-2006, 06:42 PM
[QUOTE=JoeyInCali]In the immortal words of Earl, " the ref didn't see it".
QUOTE]

Same thing happened to me in an IPT TV match with Mike Sigel, racing to 8. It's 6-3, Mike is about to pocket a ball. The ref is standing right alongside the table and has an excellent view. Sigel rolls my only ball with his sleeve a good 2-3", I call foul, and the ref said he didn't see it!!! :mad: Yet his sponsors behind me, another 6 feet away saw it.

So, instead of 6-4, he goes on the hill 7-3. I know I probably wouldn't have won, but he didn't have to cheat to win either. When we were unscrewing, I told him he fouled and he looked away. :(

Black-Balled
11-22-2006, 06:43 PM
...It was like I just asked a drunk to play for a beer on a local beat-up coin-op table.
Except that you would have been buying the beer...

cueandcushion
11-22-2006, 07:12 PM
Okay, you've convinced me that there may be cheating at pool. Just don't try to tell me that pro wrestling is fake.:rolleyes:


Pro wrestling is not fake, it is just fixed. Kinda like the occasional pool game with side action.

Flex
11-22-2006, 07:45 PM
Its not cheating unless you get caught.When you are playing for money you have to expect that these things will happen.

Words of wisdom, no doubt... sheesh...

Let's see, "Its not cheating unless you get caught"... Hmmm.... change the word "cheating" to "murder" and is that sentence true?? Of course not. How about substituting the word "speeding" in there?

Getting caught has nothing to do with it.

Flex

lncanada9
11-22-2006, 08:25 PM
If you dont think that almost "ALL" of the pro's cheat all the time,,,then you are just crazy. Why do you think they win almost all the time. In the matter of cheating there is alot of different things they do. Examples: First of all..I would bet you every penny I have that 80% or more of the pro pool players are playing on DRUGS!!!!! To calm them down, kill their nerves or whatever else they seem to need to do. That for one is absolutely cheating you. And dont think that they "ALL" know how to rack the balls..lol especially the phillipenos. Why do you think they give all the medium players such big spots and all the breaks... I think that alot of the players get more respect than they deserve...especially when they are cheating everybody!!!! Thats all I got to say about that!

cuejoey
11-22-2006, 09:31 PM
if a person has the personality to cheat it won't matter if he is a pro or not !:eek:

ironman
11-22-2006, 09:53 PM
I would have to say you are mistaken.First of all Earl would NEVER say well if the ref didnt see it and who did he say that to?Your post makes no sense at all.

You obviously have not been around him very much.

ironman
11-22-2006, 09:55 PM
In over 15 years I have never seen any pro call a foul on themseves.It sounds like all you are trying to do is bash Earl.

At my events alone I have seen Jermy jones, Gabe Owen, Cliff Joyner, and coorey Duel call fouls on themselves.

monski
11-22-2006, 09:57 PM
I saw a guy breaking on a money game. Score was Hill-hill. The guy breaking noticed that his opponent was busy talking to someone else. He broke, made a ball on the break but quickly sat down (though he had a shot on the 1 ball). He looked at his opponent and looked at the table and asked, "You wanna take a shot?". His opponent made the 1 but was surprised when a foul was called. The guys answer was, "I didn't call for a push." Now, I'm not sure about the exact rules on these situations but that's a story i'd like to share.

ironman
11-22-2006, 09:58 PM
Pro wrestling is not fake, it is just fixed. Kinda like the occasional pool game with side action.

It isn't fixed, but if you bet on the 2nd to be introduced, you will always win.

BigDaddyInc.
11-22-2006, 10:03 PM
You obviously have not been around him very much.
Well it's just one of those deals where earl used the rules to his advantage the ref did'nt see it so the ref can't call a foul that's not earls fault. Of course ray charles could see that it was a foul but if the ref did'nt see it then thats that. I mean all earl did to try to protect himself from this guy getting ball in hand on a mickey mouse out was enforce the rules.

PoolBum
11-22-2006, 11:32 PM
Some people like Earl consider it a shark if you say "nice shot" during his run, and to a degree he's right.

I was watching Jack Hines play a guy one time and the guy says, "nice shot" to Hines after a shot and Hines turns to the guy and says, "keep your nice shots to yourself m**her f**ker."

Stones
11-23-2006, 12:44 AM
All I have to say is... you don't see this lack of sportsmanship in golf.

You have to be kidding me! You ever seen the documentary called "Caddyshack"? LOL

trueblu8
11-23-2006, 12:53 AM
I was watching Jack Hines play a guy one time and the guy says, "nice shot" to Hines after a shot and Hines turns to the guy and says, "keep your nice shots to yourself m**her f**ker."
Oh that's great man, hilarious, wish I had the balls to do that, lol. Maybe only to one of my friends I would. Yeah, I totally agree, it really bugs me too when people do this and it throws your game off. It's one thing if you really mean it and are playing a friendly game with either a good buddy, or an opponent where you both have a mutual respect for eachother. But you can tell when somebody does this on purpose just because your on a good run or they're pissed off that your doing so well or whatever the reason may be. Unfortunately that's just the way the world is I'm afraid, there's just a lot of messed up people out there. Nothing we can do about it.

trueblu8
11-23-2006, 01:05 AM
At my events alone I have seen Jeremy Jones, Gabe Owen, Cliff Joyner, and Corey Deuel call fouls on themselves.
That Corey Deuel is one smooth ass player man. I really like his style.

chilli66
11-23-2006, 01:42 AM
If you dont think that almost "ALL" of the pro's cheat all the time,,,then you are just crazy. Why do you think they win almost all the time. In the matter of cheating there is alot of different things they do. Examples: First of all..I would bet you every penny I have that 80% or more of the pro pool players are playing on DRUGS!!!!! To calm them down, kill their nerves or whatever else they seem to need to do. That for one is absolutely cheating you. And dont think that they "ALL" know how to rack the balls..lol especially the phillipenos. Why do you think they give all the medium players such big spots and all the breaks... I think that alot of the players get more respect than they deserve...especially when they are cheating everybody!!!! Thats all I got to say about that!

Wow. That's some harsh words there, Larry. But I have to say I agree with you. There are so many things that can be done "off the table" that can be considered as cheating. I'll be honest, there are times when I wished I had something to calm me down (even if it's just a smoke!) when I've played.

I've always believed in playing an honest game. Hell, even when I'm just shooting for fun with my buddy I'll call a foul on myself, it's the way I was brought up. I did it a few weeks ago, moved a ball when shooting on the 8 for a run out. My pal said it was OK by him, I said no. He threatened to quit if I didn't take the shot. We were playing for fun so I made the 8, but I refused to add the game to the score. My philosophy is if you look someone in the eye & know in your heart you cheated then you're nowhere near the player you think you are & you damn well don't deserve to win.

If I can't win fairly I'd rather not play at all.

Ade.

RED NAXELA
11-23-2006, 02:15 AM
And dont think that they "ALL" know how to rack the balls..lol especially the phillipenos. Why do you think they give all the medium players such big spots and all the breaks... I think that alot of the players get more respect than they deserve...especially when they are cheating everybody!!!! Thats all I got to say about that!

Enchalada whatever it is you're smoking, you better quit before it is too late.

Stones
11-23-2006, 02:41 AM
Everybody cheats, except me!

When people start telling me how honest they are, I start counting the silverware and checking my back pocket to make sure my wallet is still there.

Now, I'm going to put my tin foil hat back on and go sit in the corner.

cuetechasaurus
11-23-2006, 03:43 AM
Of course some pros cheat, alot of them are broke and they will do anything for a win. There are alot of good people out there however. Charlie Bryant is a great guy and very honest, so is Ernesto Dominguez, Danny Harriman, Efren, Bustamante, Grady Matthews, etc. These are all great guys and honest people. I've seen some pretty bad stuff done by some other players that I won't name, but on one occasion I was disgusted. Player 'A' sunk the 9ball, and the cueball was rolling, and it was about 2 inches before coming to a dead stop in the middle of the table, no chance of scratching. Player A picks up the cueball as usual, and player 'B' calls a foul, because he picked up the cueball while it was still moving (it was barely rolling at all). There was nothing player A could do, because a rule is a rule, but that is a pretty unsportsman like move to do that. If the cueball was rolling towards a pocket, then of course call a foul, but if its just about to stop in the middle of the table with no chance of scratching, that's just wrong to call a foul IMO.

Kyo
11-23-2006, 06:44 AM
I think Earl (for me) has just about done or covered everything that would brand him excessively unsportsmanlike. TBH it doesn't really surprise me now that i seen just about all the antics.

I mean it was televised for crying out loud with a audience as well so i am amazed that he wasn't "publically" embarressed considering there was probably a good couple of thousand pair of eyes that witnessed this because surely things like this should differentiate the amaeteurs from the pros? You can argue all you like whether not he cheating but it certaily one of the worst displays of bad sportsmanship. (he got what he deserved btw)

I have watched quite a lot of televised snooker over here in the uk and i can honestly say it extremely rare for someone "not" to call fouls on themselves even when no one has noticed a foul commited. You would think that this level of sportsmanship would apply to more than one kind of sport. Pool imo is in many ways just as a great game as any other sport so it shouldn't be a exception.

Gerry
11-23-2006, 06:48 AM
The short answer to all this has a few names.....

Ethics
Self respect
Honor
Morals
Character

>What has the game become if you can't say "nice shot" to someone, as long as it isn't a jab for a lucky roll....etc? You hear/see top Pros in ALL other sports/games acknowledge good play.

Does that same guy tell the whole audience to shut up if they clap or say nice shot? maybe He doesn't play in front of an audience for that reason?:rolleyes:

sheesh, Gerry

Jason Robichaud
11-23-2006, 08:42 AM
So, some of them sometime I am hearing. Are the rules of play adjusted for these professionals? Everyone is mentioning one particular name and some of his antics. I know at amateur level events I have seen almost fist fights for less. I have never watched someone mark the table with powdery hand prints nor would it be allowed.

I would like to ask if a Hohmann or Reyes lifted a cue as to strike at someone or barked at the crowd and players would it be stopped? These guys sit very quietly (from what I have seen) and wait their chance. Would this get a big gasp and wow from the crowd and the tournament be forced to take action?

Maybe lack of a governing body for professional pool players effects this. I don’t know if a Hohmann or Reyes can get suspended? Professionals have a thousand different events that they can play. The event that suspended Reyes would just have one less big name on the card and possibly a competing event down the street. Reyes playing no-names for $2000 or two top players competing for $5000. Which do I spend my spectator $$ on!!!

Men’s pool is entertaining to say the least. It is like a David Blaine show. You stay tuned because you never now what you are going to see…and when you do see it…you have no idea what you have just seen.

I guess professional players go by the EVF rules…ENTERTAINMENT VALUE FACTOR rules!

Paul Mon
11-23-2006, 08:46 AM
It was made sort of well-known that George Breedlove called a foul on himself in an IPT qualifier, I believe it was even the final match of said qualifier, which at the time was thought to be worth a substantial amount of money, potentially.

I am not going to get into the argument over whether people should call fouls on themselves. We already had that discussion in the other thread which I believe has been linked above.

But how noble of George to call a foul on himself.



George actually called a double hit foul on himself in the case game. I was 8 feet away and all bystanders agreed that unless he called it it would not have been noticed.

Ummagumma
11-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Its not cheating unless you get caught.

Ahh, I see. Thanks for clearing up any moral questions on this matter.

When you are playing for money you have to expect that these things will happen.

Yes, I suppose that is to be expected if one has the attitude/mentality of that stated in your first sentence above.

In every sport opposing players try to draw fouls, is that still cheating.Its just the nature of the beast.

Ummmm, I fail to see how you can even compare this. In this case, it's called strategy; play safe on your opponent, force them to kick at it and hopefully miss.

Ummagumma
11-23-2006, 01:35 PM
In over 15 years I have never seen any pro call a foul on themseves.

Really?? I heard several years ago that Sang Lee called a foul on himself -- apparently his shirt had touched the cue ball. No one else saw this at all, but Sang was honest enough to call it.

I also heard that George Breedlove called a foul on himself in some match in the last year or so.

Tom In Cincy
11-23-2006, 01:44 PM
All I have to say is... you don't see this lack of sportsmanship in golf.


All I can say is, you haven't seen much golf

im2fast4u2catch
11-23-2006, 02:19 PM
i was watchin a DCC video with brumbeck(sorry if its spelled wrong) vs. piggy(cant remember his real name) and piggy stopped the cue ball frozen to the rail with his stick. it was very subtle however very noticable and the official didnt see it but brumbeck went nuts about it. it was an obviously intentional foul.
b

jimmy-leggs
11-23-2006, 05:58 PM
I was watching Jack Hines play a guy one time and the guy says, "nice shot" to Hines after a shot and Hines turns to the guy and says, "keep your nice shots to yourself m**her f**ker."
Thats when you crack your cue over his head and say 'thats a nice shot"

sydbarret
11-23-2006, 06:34 PM
How about the time when Earl was playing Shannon and Shannon was down getting ready to shoot the 5 ball. Earl jumped out of his chair, went and stopped him. Reason being is because the 4 was still on the table and Earl didnt want to let him shoot the wrong ball.

Keep em coming though.Dont just bear down and play your game. Instead worry about someone moving there leg, saying nice shot or having a couple drinks or something before they play.

ribdoner
11-23-2006, 06:41 PM
Reason being is because the 4 was still on the table and Earl didnt want to let him shoot the wrong ball.

.

Earl must of had him in the CALCUTTA;)

sydbarret
11-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Earl must of had him in the CALCUTTA;)

Well played:D

inthezone
11-23-2006, 07:18 PM
I was watching Jack Hines play a guy one time and the guy says, "nice shot" to Hines after a shot and Hines turns to the guy and says, "keep your nice shots to yourself m**her f**ker."

Jumpin Jack - that's a blast from the past - what a monster player he was - he had it ALL - effortlessly HUGE break, subject to make anything, touch, one of the very few I've seen could make a 9 footer look like a bar box (Strickland and Buddy come to mind)...but something went awry.
Stevie McAnnich was in his shadow for years but eventually emerged as the the more successful player...for a while (but what happpened to him?)

Seemed like Strickland was the only player that intimidated him - did everything just a hair better - could be what done him in.

inthezone - it's where I wanna be...:cool:

elizabeth
12-05-2006, 07:44 PM
I think that was against Charlie Williams in the Skins game.
This post is a total lie.Earl has never fouled and not acknowledged it.
LIAR,LIAR<LIAR

Cuebacca
12-05-2006, 08:37 PM
This post is a total lie.Earl has never fouled and not acknowledged it.
LIAR,LIAR<LIAR

Please watch the video proof (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyoaEq2-IPQ) before calling people liars. He acknowledged it to Charlie but not to the ref. Almost 50 posts on this forum and all of them are rudely defending Earl. Am I the only one who finds that interesting? :confused:

cuenut
12-05-2006, 08:48 PM
I think in most pool halls, when there is money on the game, ethics fall by the wayside with the vast majority of players. If it is friendly game, they have nothing to lose.

My motto is:

Right is right even if nobody is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it.

Plain and simple.

Flex
12-05-2006, 09:04 PM
This post is a total lie.Earl has never fouled and not acknowledged it.
LIAR,LIAR<LIAR

Earl? Is that you??

PoolBum
12-05-2006, 11:13 PM
Its not cheating unless you get caught.

So, how can you get 'caught' if you're not cheating?

trueblu8
12-06-2006, 01:01 AM
Earl? Is that you??
......LOL!

chilli66
12-06-2006, 01:33 AM
This post is a total lie.Earl has never fouled and not acknowledged it.
LIAR,LIAR<LIAR

Are we talking about the same Earl?

JoeyA
12-06-2006, 08:38 AM
All I have to say is... you don't see this lack of sportsmanship in golf.

A rich man demonstrates charity far easier than a poor man.
JoeyA

VIProfessor
12-06-2006, 09:19 AM
A rich man demonstrates charity far easier than a poor man.
JoeyA

Excellent point! I think that many people miss the impact that money (or the lack thereof) has on the integrity of our sport. Let me state from the outset that I don't condone cheating or stealing from people (especially from the inexperienced players who are just getting into the game). At the same time, I don't believe we can ignore the simple fact that desperate people will do desperate things to feed themselves and their families.

If we expand the discussion to the prevalence of hustling and dumping in the game, it is again clear that the lack of legitimate options for making money is at the root of the problem. Let's face it--unlike golf and tennis, only a mere handful of players, particularly on the men's side, have any reasonable hope at making a living on tournament winnings. Further, as we all know, particularly on this forum, the availability of information (particularly in the digital age) is such that you quickly run out of easy action no matter how far you travel. Thus, the hustling and the dumping.

Further, let's look at the avenues of player development. A young golfer or tennis player actually gets to go to school (often for free) to further develop his game. The top Americans in golf and tennis were schooled at Stanford and Harvard, respectively. In contrast, advanced training for American pool players is provided only by the University of Hard Knocks.

Even within our sport, we see that the European players, who in large part benefit from structured training and even government support, exhibit an entirely different approach to the game than their American counterparts.

The bottom line is that while we must seek to raise the standard of conduct in our sport, we must recognize that our attempts will probably be futile unless professional-caliber players are able to earn a living from the game by legitimate means, and until young players can develop their games in structured and supportive environments.

Jerry Yost
12-06-2006, 12:34 PM
Its not cheating unless you get caught.When you are playing for money you have to expect that these things will happen.In every sport opposing players try to draw fouls, is that still cheating.Its just the nature of the beast.


Thats just a poor outlook! I hope you're not trying to justify the behavior but rather point out that it's simply happens. Would you cheat against an opponent if you thought you could get away with it?