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mworkman
02-20-2007, 03:43 PM
What % of your high run should you expect to get in a night of practicing? I had one great week where I got my high run of 65. Also, in that same week I got a 63 and a 56. That was over a month ago and I haven't toped 44 since. Some nights I can't even get into the 3rd rack. :eek: Normally, I will get something in the 30's or 40's for a high for the day.

I'm wondering about those guys that run a ton of balls like Mr. Schmidt. Does he get down and frustrated if he cant run 200? He has a high run of over 400 so shouldn't he be able to run a 100 every day if he wants to?

Bob Jewett
02-20-2007, 03:58 PM
What % of your high run should you expect to get in a night of practicing? I had one great week where I got my high run of 65. Also, in that same week I got a 63 and a 56. That was over a month ago and I haven't toped 44 since. Some nights I can't even get into the 3rd rack. :eek: Normally, I will get something in the 30's or 40's for a high for the day. ...
My experience is about the same as yours -- 35-50% or so in an evening of practice.

The stats from the DCC 14.1 high-run competition are more varied. Mike Davis came within 10% of his lifetime high run in 17 innings (151 vs 160-something, I think). One player who averaged 50 in a tournament couldn't get past 56 in 12 tries. John Schmidt had several solid runs but didn't get past 89 in 17 tries. Immonen averaged 62.33 in 9 turns.

Tom In Cincy
02-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Tom Ross (instructor and pretty good player) contributes articles to Billiards Digest.

He wrote of practicing with 15 balls scattered on a table and making sure there wasn't any difficult clusters or balls frozen to the rail. His routine was to pocket the 15 balls and continue with the same scattering of the next 15 balls for the next rack.

His success of pocketing balls wasn't the goal, but to have a mental strength exercise of 'routinely' pocketing balls.

Most of the balls pocketed in a 14.1 game are fairly easy shots, if you play the right patterns and get the desired shape. These shots are the ones that may "Lull" you into a brain dead state and open up the possibility of missing, or at least lower the chances of making the object ball and getting shape.

Mental strength will enable you to maintain the 'routine' of making balls and getting shape in a more constant basis. Maybe getting through the 3 and 4th racks will become easier if you build up your 'mental strength'

Just passing on (IMO) a good read from Tom Ross' colum in BD.

StevenPWaldon
02-20-2007, 04:12 PM
Bob-

Thanks for the stats. I often wonder myself. Not that I'm a decent 14.1 player by any standards, but when I play I wonder what a good benchmark should be to measure my consistency. I'd like to say I'm Zen enough to appreciate recognizing playing well, and pocketing/positioning balls as I intended... but sometimes I (i.e. everyone) focus on numbers, too.

mworkman
02-20-2007, 04:27 PM
My experience is about the same as yours -- 35-50% or so in an evening of practice.

The stats from the DCC 14.1 high-run competition are more varied. Mike Davis came within 10% of his lifetime high run in 17 innings (151 vs 160-something, I think). One player who averaged 50 in a tournament couldn't get past 56 in 12 tries. John Schmidt had several solid runs but didn't get past 89 in 17 tries. Immonen averaged 62.33 in 9 turns.

That's amazing that Davis was able to do that under such tough conditions. With everyone watching an all. I would think it would be a lot easier at home on your own table and all the conditions the same every time. I would suspect that if he spent a lot of time practicing 14.1 he would get a new high run in the near future.

mworkman
02-20-2007, 04:31 PM
Tom Ross (instructor and pretty good player) contributes articles to Billiards Digest.

He wrote of practicing with 15 balls scattered on a table and making sure there wasn't any difficult clusters or balls frozen to the rail. His routine was to pocket the 15 balls and continue with the same scattering of the next 15 balls for the next rack.

His success of pocketing balls wasn't the goal, but to have a mental strength exercise of 'routinely' pocketing balls.

Most of the balls pocketed in a 14.1 game are fairly easy shots, if you play the right patterns and get the desired shape. These shots are the ones that may "Lull" you into a brain dead state and open up the possibility of missing, or at least lower the chances of making the object ball and getting shape.

Mental strength will enable you to maintain the 'routine' of making balls and getting shape in a more constant basis. Maybe getting through the 3 and 4th racks will become easier if you build up your 'mental strength'

Just passing on (IMO) a good read from Tom Ross' colum in BD.

Thanks, I'll have to try that. My runs do sometimes end on very makeable shots. And I've noticed sometimes when I miss it's because I dont give the shot my full attention. This would probably be a hard exercise for me because I'm sure I will take a shot for granted and miss.

Blackjack
02-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Though I am capable of 100+ runs, I am happy when I get to 60 or 70. I understand that I won;t always have the opportunity to expand my runs into the high numbers every time I play 14.1. Most of the time when I practice I try to pay attention to these things INSTEAD of the numbers:

1) Spreading the pack with secondary break shots - dispersing the balls so that each has a clean path to an open pocket
2) Maintaining proper shot sequence to get to my set up ball, the key ball and the break ball
3) Maintaining consistency with my break shot as well as maintaining consistency with the fundamentals.

Pay attention to these things instead of running big numbers. 14.1 is also about strategy, style, and asbove all else - LEARNING!

Gerry
02-20-2007, 05:56 PM
You may want to take a close look at table conditions. I studied my table conditions vs ease of runs and itmakes a HUGE difference.

>humidity
>clean balls....oh quit laughing!:)
>clean cloth
>pocket size
>tight rack

all these things coming together in perfect playing conditions makes for much easier runs IMO.

On the subject, I had a talk with an old school table mechanic who used to do the 5x10's back in the day, and I asked him if it was true they were wedged tight like you hear some of the old crew talk about. He said most rooms had a few tight tables but the rest were more user friendly or the public would get bored not making balls. I had the understanding that they were tighter because you read/hear about it on accustats from some old guys like Johnny Ervolino etc. He told me "most" big runs were on easy well maintained equipment with the old slower cloth.

Funny thing is 2 of my 100 ball runs were on slower Mali cloth. I think I just get into stroke on slower cloth better!?...

Gerry

Chenz
02-21-2007, 06:48 AM
Question, Where can I learn about 14.1? Is it the same as straight pool? I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to play it or learn the rules. Thanks

Salamander
02-21-2007, 08:16 AM
I was better able to run racks when I stopped thinking about numbers. Sometimes the balls just don't cooperate. My straight pool practice now consists of starting with a breakshot and racing to 300. I log the number of racks played, and the number of misses. Even if I don't have a shot, I try and pick out a ball in the pack and create a shot. This is totally offensive pool and will get you into stroke. The only drawbacks are that you don't practice safeties.

I've had days where I'd rather not say how many times I've missed. I've also had days where I wished I'd taped my play. This type of practice allows you to focus on the game, and not on how many racks you've run. It also allows you to get into a "flow", which is the key to high runs. If I'm really struggling, I'll just throw out 15 balls, none touching, and log racks played to balls missed.

my two cents.

Regards,

Doug

SpiderWebComm
02-21-2007, 09:10 AM
I spoke to John Schmidt about this same question. He says if you're really playing well, your run can depend largely on how clean the balls are. Meaning, polished balls spread and tend not to stick in the muck.

He said no one in the world has to run 100 everyday. I always believed if you could run 50, you could run 100, and up. He mentioned that wasn't true... and that running 400 was exponentially harder than running 300, which was exponentially harder than running 200 and so on.

John, I know you read the posts (esp. on 14.1). Chime in and give your thoughts - you have excellent insight, I def. learned a lot.

Williebetmore
02-26-2007, 08:16 AM
I spoke to John Schmidt about this same question. He says if you're really playing well, your run can depend largely on how clean the balls are. Meaning, polished balls spread and tend not to stick in the muck.

He said no one in the world has to run 100 everyday. I always believed if you could run 50, you could run 100, and up. He mentioned that wasn't true... and that running 400 was exponentially harder than running 300, which was exponentially harder than running 200 and so on.

John, I know you read the posts (esp. on 14.1). Chime in and give your thoughts - you have excellent insight, I def. learned a lot.

D-man,
I noticed that John brought his own balls to the DCC 14.1 competition - a habit that Willie Mosconi cultivated during his exhibition heyday.

I also totally agree about the exponential nature of increasingly higher runs (which of course makes my chances of ever reaching 100 somewhat slim). Perhaps there is also an exponential difference between running a hundred, and "raining" hundreds.

I'm not sure that anyone in the world is a favorite to run 100 everyday (being that the discipline of 14.1 is no longer pre-eminent). In the "day", however, players like Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, and Irving Crane would most likely bet every penny in their pocket that they could in a few tries; but we are talking about the most expert 14.1 practioners of all time.

Jim Rempe said when he was playing daily 14.1, he just "rained" hundreds.

My father's degenerate pool gambling buddies who hung out with Mosconi in his Kansas City years stated that Willie played them 100 no-count to 1000; and rarely lost (and they, by their own accounts, were pretty good players). They stated that during his daily practice Willie would usually play until he ran 150 or 200 and then quit - he probably had hundreds (if not a thousand) of unfinished 150's, and hundreds at least of unfinished 200's. He was an offensive machine; and they stated that his 150's and 200's would rarely take much more than an hour.

Grady Mathews in the 1980's rarely failed to run 100 within a few innings in his exhibitions.

I believe if the world's best current players applied themselves to the game, they also would be more likely to run daily 100's.

arsenius
02-26-2007, 09:36 PM
I heard Grady say on a tape once that he likes to run 100 balls at each location he goes to. Don't know if he still does this or not.

Kevin
02-28-2007, 01:33 PM
Question, Where can I learn about 14.1? Is it the same as straight pool? I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to play it or learn the rules. Thanks

Yes, same game. Rules are here:

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_141.shtml

Great game, find a friend near you in skill level, get a video to watch to get the idea or read more here, play it some. Fine old-style game, definitely a different pace from fast-action 9-ball you see on TV. More like snooker perhaps in playing the reds and colored balls, then finishing off the rack to break the next open and continue. It is the only game that absolutely no one can stop you except yourself. Just keep making balls and soon Willie Mosconi's run of 526 in a row will be in your tailights.

Just get it on video so we can put that old devil to rest once and for all. <g:> Sometimes I think he did it so well it killed the game, not to mention commercial programming time slots for the Tum's Stomach pills sponsored program of "As the Stomach Churns", daily segment #13, season 4, scheduled for 9pm, and to hell with the finals match of a great tournament that runs long. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

Kevin
02-28-2007, 02:08 PM
I was better able to run racks when I stopped thinking about numbers. Sometimes the balls just don't cooperate. My straight pool practice now consists of starting with a breakshot and racing to 300. I log the number of racks played, and the number of misses. Even if I don't have a shot, I try and pick out a ball in the pack and create a shot. This is totally offensive pool and will get you into stroke. The only drawbacks are that you don't practice safeties.

I've had days where I'd rather not say how many times I've missed. I've also had days where I wished I'd taped my play. This type of practice allows you to focus on the game, and not on how many racks you've run. It also allows you to get into a "flow", which is the key to high runs. If I'm really struggling, I'll just throw out 15 balls, none touching, and log racks played to balls missed.

my two cents.

Regards,

Doug

Ouch! Numbers hurt but there is nothing better than to realize -quantitatively and precisely- where you fit into the pool food chain of eat or be eaten. Wake up and swim faster or head for shallow water.

Bob Jewett and MWorkman and Salamander have touched on nice points. I wonder just what relevant statistics for improvement you folks think worth noting when playing straight pool?

High run is nice, average run good, median is useful. Type of shot missed could be helpful, for example is it pre-shot routine on an easy shot or a position error leading to a forced low percentage shot missed, long tough shot or thin cut, breaks, cluster mistakes, sloppy position on the final key/break balls, ending on the rail too straight, etc. Mostly with an eye towards recognizing consistent errors first, then consciously building practice routines to avoid such routine errors in future.

I am thinking about the Accu-stats system that factors balls missed, position missed, safety missed, balls pocketed on break, and scratches (methinks) that rounds out Pat Fleming's statistical system.

Any thoughts or pointers to the greatest 14-1 note keeping system for highlighting important areas necessary to address for continual improvement in this great game?

SpiderWebComm
02-28-2007, 02:30 PM
D-man,
I noticed that John brought his own balls to the DCC 14.1 competition - a habit that Willie Mosconi cultivated during his exhibition heyday.

I also totally agree about the exponential nature of increasingly higher runs (which of course makes my chances of ever reaching 100 somewhat slim). Perhaps there is also an exponential difference between running a hundred, and "raining" hundreds.

I'm not sure that anyone in the world is a favorite to run 100 everyday (being that the discipline of 14.1 is no longer pre-eminent). In the "day", however, players like Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, and Irving Crane would most likely bet every penny in their pocket that they could in a few tries; but we are talking about the most expert 14.1 practioners of all time.

Jim Rempe said when he was playing daily 14.1, he just "rained" hundreds.

My father's degenerate pool gambling buddies who hung out with Mosconi in his Kansas City years stated that Willie played them 100 no-count to 1000; and rarely lost (and they, by their own accounts, were pretty good players). They stated that during his daily practice Willie would usually play until he ran 150 or 200 and then quit - he probably had hundreds (if not a thousand) of unfinished 150's, and hundreds at least of unfinished 200's. He was an offensive machine; and they stated that his 150's and 200's would rarely take much more than an hour.

Grady Mathews in the 1980's rarely failed to run 100 within a few innings in his exhibitions.

I believe if the world's best current players applied themselves to the game, they also would be more likely to run daily 100's.


I think what John was trying to say is no one was a 100% lock to do it (by saying had-to), not that someone couldn't or shouldn't. I also noticed that he brought his own balls to DCC-- and also wiped down the felt repeatedly. I wish I could watch Mosconi play 14.1. There's a video of him on youtube playing an exhibition against caras or someone like that - but it only covered 1 rack. Does anyone know where I can watch Mosconi play? Good to hear from you WillieBetmore!

Williebetmore
03-03-2007, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know where I can watch Mosconi play?

Spider,
There is basically no playing footage of Mosconi in his prime. The documentary footage of him that exists from that era is mainly of him doing trick shots (and, of course, he was "Massey-like"). The tape of Mosconi-Caras was from the Valley Forge exhibition - both men are quite old, and Mosconi was just out of the hospital after a major illness (no practice at all).

There is a tape from the late 50's or early 60's, black and white, of him demonstrating how to run 50 on an 8-footer (only takes about 10 minutes, he talks throughout the run, often getting down to shoot before whitey stops rolling). Available through Bert Kinister.

The only other footage I'm aware of is the series of ESPN Legends Pocket Billiards from the late 70's early 80's. Complete set available through Bert Kinister.

Remember that Mosconi had a significant stroke (cerebrovascular accident) in the early 50's and NEVER again approached the skill level he maintained before the event (though still played very sporty). A few of the trick shot tapes can at least give you an idea of what a monster player he was - but to my knowledge there is no tape of him playing in his prime.