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Vinman
02-22-2007, 11:50 AM
Although there are already a few threads concerning 14.1, I’ve started this one to open a discussion on the strategies of the game. I’m working hard to improve my game and so would appreciate any insight from the straight pool monsters out there. To get things started, some things about my game that I’ve recently noticed or struggled with are:

Break shots

Although they are not usually considered as desirable as side of the rank break shots, I seem to have good percentage of success using side pocket break shots as well as balls below the rack and on the bottom rail. I don’t go out of my way to create these break shots, but accept them if they are there. Although they are sometimes harder to setup, they often seem to allow better cue ball control after the break, and less risk of scratching. While on the subject, how early in a particular rack should you select a break ball?

Speed on the break shot

When I hit them too hard I often end up with too many clusters and balls on the rail, or re-clustering of balls back into the rack area. Are there any rules of thumb to help you gauge how hard to hit a break shot?

Clearance strategy

Once the balls are open, what is the best way to go about clearing them? Is it best to work from the outside in, or inside out? What are the advantages or disadvantages of each? My pattern play for the most part is circular from the outside in.

Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks!

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 12:09 PM
Although there are already a few threads concerning 14.1, I’ve started this one to open a discussion on the strategies of the game. I’m working hard to improve my game and so would appreciate any insight from the straight pool monsters out there. To get things started, some things about my game that I’ve recently noticed or struggled with are:

Break shots

Although they are not usually considered as desirable as side of the rank break shots, I seem to have good percentage of success using side pocket break shots as well as balls below the rack and on the bottom rail. I don’t go out of my way to create these break shots, but accept them if they are there. Although they are sometimes harder to setup, they often seem to allow better cue ball control after the break, and less risk of scratching. While on the subject, how early in a particular rack should you select a break ball?


The underlying problem with using a side-pocket break-ball is that it's difficult to determine where you're going to strike the rack. If you're hitting the top of the rack, you'll be fine but if you hit the side, there's a great chance of caroming right into the corner. Personally, I think this illustrates that you need to become more comfortable with more traditional break-shots. In the long-run (and likely short-run), you'll see the advantages to them.

Personally, I like leaving all balls that can be used as break-balls until I've cleared enough of the rack to make an end-pattern. Sometimes, the rack will simply favor a side-rack breakshot and sometimes it will favor a behind-rack breakshot. Sometimes neither and sometimes both. The advantage to leaving a few options is it allows you to improvise if your intended break-shot is no longer part of a good pattern.


Speed on the break shot

When I hit them too hard I often end up with too many clusters and balls on the rail, or re-clustering of balls back into the rack area. Are there any rules of thumb to help you gauge how hard to hit a break shot?

The only things that are certain when it comes to how the balls will spread is this: Hit the rack too soft and you'll have one HUGE cluster. The only way to get them to spread all over the table is to hit it hard.

Dealing with post-break clusters is part of the game but if you want to avoid clusters as much as possible, the rule-of-thumb is to hit the break hard.


Clearage strategy

Once the balls are open, what is the best way to go about clearing them? Is it best to work from the outside in, or inside out? What are the advantages or disadvantages of each? My pattern play for the most part is circular from the outside in.

Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks!


There are MANY things to consider and I'm certain any list I give you will definitely miss a few important points but here goes:

1. Address clusters with urgency
2. Clear pocket paths with urgency
3. Trouble-shots (rail shots & out-liers) should have priority

Once these are addressed, you want to send the cue-ball into areas of the table where you can play a series of small shots.

Gregg
02-22-2007, 12:16 PM
An old timer once told be straight is such an easy game you really don't even need strategy; just make a ball, and make sure you get easy position for your next shot. Don't worry about break shots he said.

















Just kidding.

Straight pool will make a pretty decent player look like a sucker against a good shooter who does not know the game.

I feel like an incompetent moron trying to match up with a good shooter I know who has ran over seventy balls...

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 12:23 PM
The most basic strategy for a new player/ trying to learn more at 14.1 ...

Is be patient and wait for the other player to make mistakes and capatilize on them...Play smart safes and learn how to develop a Great Touch around the stack...If you learn to skin the stack ever so slightly on safes it will improve your game exponentially

Most people want to focus on offense in Straight pool but Defense can win you far more games...Forcing the other guy into tough shots and misses opens the table for you..

Don't invent shots if nothing is there play a safe....If you can combine conservative play with pocketing balls and good patterns you will go far at 14.1

Mosconi's little Red book has great Straight pool 411 and Capelle's 14.1 Book has great insight as well...

lewdo26
02-22-2007, 12:24 PM
"Straight pool is easy" --- meaning, the easy shot tells you what easy shot to take next with minimal cueball movement. I'm also finding it useful to open lanes. Don't think of blockers only as pocket blockers, but also position lane blockers. Sometimes shooting one particular ball in a tight grouping (not a cluster) can open up an entire rack in the middle to endgame.

That's after you've addressed your clusters, problem balls, and blockers. But what do I know?

I'm also attentive to eliminate balls in the middle of the table if I get a chance. Oh, and don't force the issue. I used to miss shots trying to save my key and break balls. But nowadays, if I'm in trouble, I go ahead and unabashedly shoot my break ball in before I sell out the rack. I can always play safe, but if I go for a tough shot to leave my break ball and miss it, I'm playing for the other guy.

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 12:33 PM
The most basic strategy for a new player/ trying to learn more at 14.1 ...

Is be patient and wait for the other player to make mistakes and capatilize on them...Play smart safes and learn how to develop a Great Touch around the stack...If you learn to skin the stack ever so slightly on safes it will improve your game exponentially

Most people want to focus on offense in Straight pool but Defense can win you far more games...Forcing the other guy into tough shots and misses opens the table for you..

Don't invent shots if nothing is there play a safe....If you can combine conservative play with pocketing balls and good patterns you will go far at 14.1

Mosconi's little Red book has great Straight pool 411 and Capelle's 14.1 Book has great insight as well...


Although you're right, defense can win you lots of games against weak players, straight-pool is an offense-oriented game. The guy who gets-up ready to pocket everything in sight is usually the guy who is going to win. I've seen a lot of players who employ this strategy in the local leagues and most will do quite well but it's a Pyrrhic victory. You're sacraficing proper approach to gain a win against a relatively uncompetitive opponent.

Look to pocket balls and let defense be something to consider when you can't.

Blackjack
02-22-2007, 12:56 PM
Although there are already a few threads concerning 14.1, I’ve started this one to open a discussion on the strategies of the game. I’m working hard to improve my game and so would appreciate any insight from the straight pool monsters out there. To get things started, some things about my game that I’ve recently noticed or struggled with are:

Break shots

Although they are not usually considered as desirable as side of the rank break shots, I seem to have good percentage of success using side pocket break shots as well as balls below the rack and on the bottom rail. I don’t go out of my way to create these break shots, but accept them if they are there. Although they are sometimes harder to setup, they often seem to allow better cue ball control after the break, and less risk of scratching. While on the subject, how early in a particular rack should you select a break ball?

Speed on the break shot

When I hit them too hard I often end up with too many clusters and balls on the rail, or re-clustering of balls back into the rack area. Are there any rules of thumb to help you gauge how hard to hit a break shot?

Clearage strategy

Once the balls are open, what is the best way to go about clearing them? Is it best to work from the outside in, or inside out? What are the advantages or disadvantages of each? My pattern play for the most part is circular from the outside in.

Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks!

Use the search feature on this forum to look for some material I have posted about the break and clearing the table. There are many diagrams accompanied by informative text that Steve Lipsky and I have posted over the years that deal with these subjects in great detail. If you have trouble finding them send me a PM and I will send them to you.

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 01:02 PM
Although you're right, defense can win you lots of games against weak players, straight-pool is an offense-oriented game. The guy who gets-up ready to pocket everything in sight is usually the guy who is going to win. I've seen a lot of players who employ this strategy in the local leagues and most will do quite well but it's a Pyrrhic victory. You're sacraficing proper approach to gain a win against a relatively uncompetitive opponent.

Look to pocket balls and let defense be something to consider when you can't.

The proper approach is to win the game....This kid is'nt likely playing 100 ball runners...if 2 guys play and both can run a rack or 2 the guy who plays better Defense wins....

Your statement is correct pocket balls when you can and play D when you can't....But don't go opening racks playing dumb shots/ misses or dumb safes that lead to big runs for the other guy....

It goes both ways.....but in reality if you put up 8 to 6 racks the whole game you will win....Big runs win too...Winning pool is the goal High Runs still only count as 1 win

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 01:08 PM
The proper approach is to win the game....This kid is'nt likely playing 100 ball runners...if 2 guys play and both can run a rack or 2 the guy who plays better Defense wins....

Your statement is correct pocket balls when you can and play D when you can't....But don't go opening racks playing dumb shots or dumb safes that lead to big runs....

It goes both ways.....but in reality if you put up 8 to 6 racks the whole game you will win....Big runs win too...Winning pool is the goal High Runs still only count as 1 win


This is beginner-strategy. I've said this before; beginner-strategy almost need not be discussed. It should go without saying that you don't blast the rack when no shot is evident.

My point is that when a shot IS available, you take it. When there's a break-shot, you play for it. The goal is to run balls NOT to get 8 points per rack. If you want to get better at this game, you'll have to get past 8-6 and start thinking of how to clear the table and get into the next rack. I find that people who think 8-6 never grow out of it. People who think 'run' are always improving.

gwvavases
02-22-2007, 01:16 PM
I hope this won't be considered an attempted "hi-jacking" of this thread, but something that has always confounded me about 14.1 is finding dead balls in the stack that you can use to break them up.

When I began playing many years ago, the owner of a little one-table pool room I used to go to (an older guy) was incredible at finding dead balls in the stack. He'd study the stack from all angles, then call a ball that was right smack dab in the middle to go in the corner pocket. He'd blast away (or that's how it appeared, at least), and sure enough, that ball that had been surrounded would slowly make it's way through the chaos and drop right in the corner pocket. I could never get him to share his knowledge about how to do that. He'd just say, "That's my secret, Boy." He never ran more than 30 balls or so (always blew position or a thin cut), but he was incredible at finding dead balls.

Anybody know this secret? Any books out there about it?

George in VA

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 01:31 PM
This is beginner-strategy. I've said this before; beginner-strategy almost need not be discussed. It should go without saying that you don't blast the rack when no shot is evident.

My point is that when a shot IS available, you take it. When there's a break-shot, you play for it. The goal is to run balls NOT to get 8 points per rack. If you want to get better at this game, you'll have to get past 8-6 and start thinking of how to clear the table and get into the next rack. I find that people who think 8-6 never grow out of it. People who think 'run' are always improving.

Your Wrong.....You always have the 8 to 6 mentality in the back of your head....Always..Sure you always go for the Best/ Highest run possible...But you don't lose sight of the Defensive end...

You need all facets of any game to be the best...In Any Game a well rounded game wins....Pool, Golf, Basketball whatever it may be....

The Question was about strategy and making balls is the most obvious Beginner Strategy of them ALL next comes Defense...The reason these are Beginner strategies is they are the Basis of the Whole GAME..

The object/ strategy of Scrabble is the same principal as 14.1 score more points and play Defensively on the board so the other guy does'nt score as Much....

So get out of here with your condescending opinions:p

Clear the rails
Break out clusters
Set up good angles for break shots
Pick the best routes
Keep whitey off the end rail

pdcue
02-22-2007, 01:41 PM
14.1 Strategy
-........................................-

>added during edit:

due to the signs of flames I see in this thread,
this reply deals with running balls, which is what I think
he was asking about - not winning games.
IMHO anyone who can play slightly understands defense
is important<
.................................................. ........

Tho you didn't limit the subject,
it's pretty obvious you are looking for ideas
about running balls/racks not winning games

My best guess about the level of your game now,
leads me to recomend you try to find George Fells "Mastering Pool"
BTW - he says 'outside-to-inside for clearing

some tips:

in addition to the other good advice,

-don't hit balls that will already go in a pocket

-try to always have a 'bail-out' ball when going into clusters

- learn to break the rack and clusters, off shots that you cut
at a 'steep' angle, comming off a thin cut with high is much
more effective than drawing the CB off a half-ball hit.
Follow thru is better than hard - esp on clusters.

14.1 is a game of control.
if you practice 2 hours a day - 1 hour should be shooting
break shots and secondary breaks<clusters>

set them up at all the angles you can and note where
the balls go AND what happens to the CB. I don't know of any
other way to develop a feel for opening up the ballswith
control and predictability, the central requirement for running balls.

last of all, opening up clusters.
IMHO nothing is more important than learning
how to decide whether to glance off or go thru a cluster.
If you want to go thru, remember follow thru, not force

Dale Pierce

SpiderWebComm
02-22-2007, 01:43 PM
I'm not a guru, but here're my thoughts:

Break Shot:

If you're playing by yourself, and it's the first shot of your run - the side pocket break shot is REALLY hard to beat. The OB should be about parallel to one of the two top balls in the rack, about center pocket high (for the side pocket). Setup for a steeper cut - maybe a HAIR of inside. It spreads the rack almost like an 8-ball break - and leaves little room to mess up. While in the middle of the run, i think the side-pocket break is a little risky (although I'll take it if need be - as BJ said) because it leaves the scratch open if you don't hit the very top of the rack. I LIKE steep-angle break-shots making the OB pocket speed. The angle of your shot will easily break the rack apart, and less likely to stick to the muck. Avoid shallow-angle break shots, I think. Too easy to miss (from trying to make something from nothing) or stick to the rack.

Patterns: If you CAN go inside to out, do it. Otherwise, go outside to in - and slowly pick apart.

I agree 100% with Jude up above.

I'm no champion, but that wins me games.

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 01:44 PM
Your Wrong.....You always have the 8 to 6 mentality in the back of your head....Always..Sure you always go for the Best/ Highest run possible...But you don't lose sight of the Defensive end...

You need all facets of any game to be the best...In Any Game a well rounded game wins....Pool, Golf, Basketball whatever it may be....

The Question was about strategy and making balls is the most obvious Beginner Strategy of them ALL next comes Defense...The reason these are Beginner strategies is they are the Basis of the Whole GAME..

The object/ strategy of Scrabble is the same principal as 14.1 score more points and play Defensively on the board so the other guy does'nt score as Much....

So get out of here with your condescending opinions:p

Clear the rails
Break out clusters
Set up good angles for break shots
Pick the best routes
Keep whitey off the end rail


Look, I could go 13-1 on a rack. If I'm the one racking, I'm not comfortable. B-level straight pool players are capable of running 50 balls so what's your 13 worth then?

I'm not saying you shouldn't think defensive when it's appropriate but you have to understand that straight pool is NOT a defense-oriented game. There are guys you've never heard of who are going to take your luke-warm safeties and not return to their chairs until their pop loses its fizz.

When you start thinking 8-6, even over the course of 10 racks, that's only a 20-point lead. C-level players can eat that up in one inning. You want goals? Your goal in EVERY rack should be to get into the next rack. That's it. You want control. You don't want your opponent to have a single scoring opportunity. If they're at the table, somehow, you failed to accomplish the task at hand. 8-6 every rack may win you games. Hell, I can talk all day about how to win when playing my sister but that doesn't mean it's worthy of posting. 8-6 every rack only shows that every rack, you failed to convert.

SpiderWebComm
02-22-2007, 01:51 PM
Look, I could go 13-1 on a rack. If I'm the one racking, I'm not comfortable. B-level straight pool players are capable of running 50 balls so what's your 13 worth then?

I'm not saying you shouldn't think defensive when it's appropriate but you have to understand that straight pool is NOT a defense-oriented game. There are guys you've never heard of who are going to take your luke-warm safeties and not return to their chairs until their pop loses its fizz.

When you start thinking 8-6, even over the course of 10 racks, that's only a 20-point lead. C-level players can eat that up in one inning. You want goals? Your goal in EVERY rack should be to get into the next rack. That's it. You want control. You don't want your opponent to have a single scoring opportunity. If they're at the table, somehow, you failed to accomplish the task at hand. 8-6 every rack may win you games. Hell, I can talk all day about how to win when playing my sister but that doesn't mean it's worthy of posting. 8-6 every rack only shows that every rack, you failed to convert.

What do people say on this site? "tap tap tap" ????

Steve Lipsky
02-22-2007, 02:01 PM
Your Wrong.....You always have the 8 to 6 mentality in the back of your head....Always..Sure you always go for the Best/ Highest run possible...But you don't lose sight of the Defensive end...

You need all facets of any game to be the best...In Any Game a well rounded game wins....Pool, Golf, Basketball whatever it may be....

The Question was about strategy and making balls is the most obvious Beginner Strategy of them ALL next comes Defense...The reason these are Beginner strategies is they are the Basis of the Whole GAME..

The object/ strategy of Scrabble is the same principal as 14.1 score more points and play Defensively on the board so the other guy does'nt score as Much....

So get out of here with your condescending opinions:p



There is nothing condescending in what he wrote. In fact, Jude's posts have been excellent in this thread.

You may need to re-examine your own thoughts on this game, considering you made a ludicrous analogy to Scrabble - a game which by definition does not allow a player to make consecutive turns.

When you hear of someone running out your Scrabble game, you are allowed to bring back that analogy.

I play 14.1 at a fairly high clip, as do many posters on this board. I promise you not a one of them considers this "8-6 every rack" madness.

- Steve

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 02:03 PM
Listen Fast Eddie 13 -1 with a great safe at the end is worth more than 50 with a wide open rack for the Next guy....

I wonder if you think 1 pocket is an offensive game as well...

No one gives a damn about your legends that will make you sit in the chair for hours on end....They exist yeah....Not in your average pool hall though

In most pool halls outside of your fantasy world in NY.....A solid game of straight pool with modest runs of 10 to 30 balls and great defense wins...Flat out...

You are talking about beating World Beaters I am talking about having an effective game of straight pool that will win against most players...


Their are many ways to skin a cat my problem with you posts is you make it sound like the only way to win and get batter is make more ball.....I'm telling you that is not the case...

I have won too many games spotting too many balls for you to tell me my style does'nt work...You are likely the type that sees a problem and only sees 1 solution.....While i see 3 alternatives

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 02:09 PM
There is nothing condescending in what he wrote. In fact, Jude's posts have been excellent in this thread.

You may need to re-examine your own thoughts on this game, considering you made a ludicrous analogy to Scrabble - a game which by definition does not allow a player to make consecutive turns.

When you hear of someone running out your Scrabble game, you are allowed to bring back that analogy.

I play 14.1 at a fairly high clip, as do many posters on this board. I promise you not a one of them considers this "8-6 every rack" madness.

- Steve

You miss the point.......8 to 6 is a win so is a 100 balls in a race to 100...You go go 8 to 6 the whole way and win or run a 100 which one counts as a win more???

I know you play strong but you have to admit that statement as a fact...

The Concept of any games rules applies....They are all games by nature right...


the Origanal topic was Strategy Defense was my answer....And I got ju mped on by Jude and his Offense theory only....

If you are a beginner anyone can make balls, but if you learn the rack and safteys you are ahead of the other guy NO???

Steve Lipsky
02-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Listen Fast Eddie 13 -1 with a great safe at the end is worth more than 50 with a wide open rack for the Next guy....
No it's not. Your rate of returning to the table winning the ensuing safe battle would have to be ASTRONOMICAL for these two things to be even close.

I wonder if you think 1 pocket is an offensive game as well...

No one gives a damn about your legends that will make you sit in the chair for hours on end....They exist yeah....Not in your average pool hall though
In Jude's poolroom, they do. Besides, if people in YOUR poolroom can't play very well, then your statement above about running 50 not being any good against them definitely makes no sense.

In most pool halls outside of your fantasy world in NY.....A solid game of straight pool with modest runs of 10 to 30 balls and great defense wins...Flat out...
If this is the type of game you are assuming, as someone in RSB once wisely said, "You are asking about what to do in a pillow fight. Who cares?"

You are talking about beating World Beaters I am talking about having an effective game of straight pool that will win against most players...
a fair point, but Jude's strategy works well against both types.


Their are many ways to skin a cat my problem with you posts is you make it sound like the only way to win and get batter is make more ball.....I'm telling you that is not the case...
from my experience, it's 90% of the battle.

I have won too many games spotting too many balls for you to tell me my style does'nt work...You are likely the type that sees a problem and only sees 1 solution.....While i see 3 alternatives
[/QUOTE]

Steve Lipsky
02-22-2007, 02:14 PM
You miss the point.......8 to 6 is a win so is a 100 balls in a race to 100...You go go 8 to 6 the whole way and win or run a 100 which one counts as a win more???

I know you play strong but you have to admit that statement as a fact...

The Concept of any games rules applies....They are all games by nature right...


the Origanal topic was Strategy Defense was my answer....And I got ju mped on by Jude and his Offense theory only....

If you are a beginner anyone can make balls, but if you learn the rack and safteys you are ahead of the other guy NO???

This post says what you meant earlier a little better.

I agree TOTALLY with you that between two beginners, the one who plays smarter and more defensively will CRUSH the other on a consistent basis.

Sorry if we misunderstood each other before...

- Steve

mthornto
02-22-2007, 02:16 PM
If you learn to skin the stack ever so slightly on safes it will improve your game exponentially




I'm not meaning to nit pick your post, but I want to expand bit on this point.

Thinning balls is defiantly a skill to learn, but I see it way overused. IMHO, thinning a ball in the pack for a safety is a last resort. Typically, all you accomplish with this move is to leave your opponent without an offensive shot. This is only half the goal of a safety. A complete safety leaves your opponent no offensive shots and very limited defensive shots. It is much better to play safeties into the pack, sticking the cue on the side and popping out balls on the other side. This puts your opponent in a much tougher position and increases the likely hood he will leave you a shot after his turn.

Babe Cranfield addresses this in The Straight Pool Bible.

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 02:23 PM
I'm not meaning to nit pick your post, but I want to expand bit on this point.

Thinning balls is defiantly a skill to learn, but I see it way overused. IMHO, thinning a ball in the pack for a safety is a last resort. Typically, all you accomplish with this move is to leave your opponent without an offensive shot. This is only half the goal of a safety. A complete safety leaves your opponent no offensive shots and very limited defensive shots. It is much better to play safeties into the pack, sticking the cue on the side and popping out balls on the other side. This puts your opponent in a much tougher position and increases the likely hood he will leave you a shot after his turn.

Babe Cranfield addresses this in The Straight Pool Bible.



GREAT point which also leads into what would be defined as a proper safety situation. The best safeties in straight pool open up the table while leaving your opponent nothing and these scenarios really only occur at the beginning of the rack, not the middle or end.

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 02:25 PM
Yes, but if any time you are trying to play safe off the stack and are knocking balls off into open shots....Some guys play these type safes too hard and have no touch....

Develop a touch that is better than the other guys....It comes in handy..

You can't freeze every safety to the rack, or play safe on dead balls

SpiderWebComm
02-22-2007, 02:36 PM
GREAT point which also leads into what would be defined as a proper safety situation. The best safeties in straight pool open up the table while leaving your opponent nothing and these scenarios really only occur at the beginning of the rack, not the middle or end.

I always thought Hopkins was the best at this. The tic-battle never worked with him. You were always stuck to half of the rack - and the other half was spread everywhere else. Inevitably, you'd be on 2 at some point grinding your teeth flat because you're totally f-ed into either giving up the 3rd or him running the set out (ask him if he thinks 8-6 per rack, ha).

Blackjack
02-22-2007, 02:40 PM
I also agree with Jude 100%. Sorry Kiss, but that is an extremely novice approach to the complex game of 14.1 continuous. There are many intricacies that develop throughout the rack, and you need to familiarize yourself with situations, clusters, and secondary break shot opportunities. 75% of the time I don't spread the balls all over the table. I just try to move them enough so that they aren't touching each other.

Clearing balls off the rails may sound logical to a beginner, but there are several key ball opportunities and excellent break shots that can be played off the rail.

Break shots are never going to be perfect or exactly the same every time. It is wise to familiarize yourself with different types of break shots.

A good way to practice is to spot a ball in an ideal break shot position. Toss another ball anywhere on the table and practice getting position for that break shot. This goes back to what Vince Lombardi used to say - "practice what you DON'T KNOW instead of what you do know."

SpiderWebComm
02-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Kiss, I think your strategy is valid to against average players... but prevents your growth as a 14.1 player. If you always think 8, you'll be lucky to get 16 (forever). If you keep thinking 100, you'll go from 8 to 16 to 25 to 50...etc.

If you only aim for the moon, you'll NEVER hit the stars. If you're used to aiming for the stars, you're putting a lot of holes in the moon.

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 02:51 PM
I do admit, I am a bit spoiled. In the poolroom I go to, I will typically say hello to a half-dozen people who have run 100-balls. I mean, they're there regularly. What's worse, there may be a half-dozen more who aren't there regularly. To put it lightly, when you make a mistake, they give you a lot of time to think about it.

It's not a fantasy. I'm not in Heaven. It's not Iowa.

mthornto
02-22-2007, 02:51 PM
Clearing balls off the rails may sound logical to a beginner, but there are several key ball opportunities and excellent break shots that can be played off the rail.



This is going to give me something to think about. In Rempe's How to run (either a rack or 100 don't remember which) he mentions getting balls off the rails early. I am sure he meant it as a generality, but I took it to heart and always look to clear the rails early. I do this to the point of not even considering leaving them until later. I will have to take a close look at these situations when they come up and see if I can find opportunities for these rail bound devils.

pdcue
02-22-2007, 02:53 PM
I play 14.1 at a fairly high clip

- Steve

Now there's an understatement if I've ever heard one.

First, it's great to see guys like you and Jude posting on 14.1.

Second, best to ignore Thekiss-wit,
I strongly suspect it's an alias for Fast Larry,
the way he hijacked the thread from how to run balls,
into how to win if you can't run 10 balls, even
after being told repeatedly that wasn't what the
OP was asking about

If it isn't FL, it's his cousin - SCRABBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From those of us who care:
any and all little gems you and/or Jude care to
pass on are greately appreciated.

Dale

Jude Rosenstock
02-22-2007, 02:59 PM
This is going to give me something to think about. In Rempe's How to run (either a rack or 100 don't remember which) he mentions getting balls off the rails early. I am sure he meant it as a generality, but I took it to heart and always look to clear the rails early. I do this to the point of not even considering leaving them until later. I will have to take a close look at these situations when they come up and see if I can find opportunities for these rail bound devils.


I think Blackjack will agree, rail-shots that are used as break-shots should be considered secondary options. I mean, I don't think BlackJack sees a ball on the rail and thinks, "that's my baby!" He's looking at it as a viable option in-case he doesn't have an idea break-shot or needs to pocket it in order to stay at the table.

Rail shots can also have several benefits when used as key-shots. If you have a ball just off the rail near your break-ball, it's usually rather easy to attain adequate position.


The point Blackjack is making more than anything else is that you need to have an open mind when you look at the table.

Blackjack
02-22-2007, 03:07 PM
I think Blackjack will agree, rail-shots that are used as break-shots should be considered secondary options. I mean, I don't think BlackJack sees a ball on the rail and thinks, "that's my baby!" He's looking at it as a viable option in-case he doesn't have an idea break-shot or needs to pocket it in order to stay at the table.

Rail shots can also have several benefits when used as key-shots. If you have a ball just off the rail near your break-ball, it's usually rather easy to attain adequate position.


The point Blackjack is making more than anything else is that you need to have an open mind when you look at the table.


Exactly, Jude. When clearing the table, I always look at which balls need to be on the table (for key balls, set ups, cluster break ups, break shots, etc) and which balls serve no purpose and can be eliminated. George Fels called these balls, WP's or "Whenever Possibles" in his book Mastering Pool. Eliminating the wrong ball at the wrong time can spell disaster when you get down to 5 or 6 balls and see your options dwindling.

When the tables starts to open up, you need to designate 3 balls:

Break Ball
Key Ball
Set up ball

The set up ball is the most important shot because that is what will lead you to key ball that will set you up for your break ball. If you recklessly pop balls in without paying attention to what you are doing then you're a real underdog to put up any high run numbers.

rikdee
02-22-2007, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=gwvavases]I hope this won't be considered an attempted "hi-jacking" of this thread, but something that has always confounded me about 14.1 is finding dead balls in the stack that you can use to break them up.

At higher skill levels, reading the rack is a necessity. If fact, after the break shot and until the rack is sufficiently spread, you should always 'check the stack'. Easy and effective secondary breaks can often result.
Reading the rack is about understanding the interaction of the balls. Nearly all rack shots are either caroms or meshes. Being able to gauge the direction of the intended ball demands judgement of just how much it will deflect or will be thrown often as a result of speed of stroke and the actual, but often quite subtle, distance(s) separating the elected ball(s). Cue ball spin is also a factor to consider and can by it self affect the shot.
Get in the habit of checking the stack. From time to time it will extend your run and amaze your friends.

Vinman
02-22-2007, 03:31 PM
Thanks everyone for the great response, already more than I hope for.

Blackjack, thank you, I found the threads you mentioned. There is a wealth of information that I look forward to applying to my game.

I recently got back into the straight pool and have surprised myself by putting together some decent runs. I usually manage to run three racks during my practice sessions, but of course I want to improve on this. I don’t have much time to play, so when I do I try to make it productive and that is why I’m seeking advice.

Blackjack
02-22-2007, 03:36 PM
Here are some diagrams of how to approach the last few balls. I have also placed in a page where I explain having a game plan from start to finish. I hope this is useful to the people that love straight pool.

Steve Lipsky
02-22-2007, 03:42 PM
Blackjack,

I am extremely happy to see you posting instruction again. We all appreciate it!

- Steve

sjm
02-22-2007, 05:50 PM
Knowing how to win control of the table in a safety sequence is critical, and knowing when it's time to hit the brakes in favor of defense is critical, but......if you are a "B" player or better, once you have control of a table, you should never be statisfied with less than a runout that leaves a break shot. Learn not to settle for less!

VIProfessor
02-22-2007, 06:19 PM
Look, I could go 13-1 on a rack. If I'm the one racking, I'm not comfortable. B-level straight pool players are capable of running 50 balls so what's your 13 worth then?

I'm not saying you shouldn't think defensive when it's appropriate but you have to understand that straight pool is NOT a defense-oriented game. There are guys you've never heard of who are going to take your luke-warm safeties and not return to their chairs until their pop loses its fizz.

When you start thinking 8-6, even over the course of 10 racks, that's only a 20-point lead. C-level players can eat that up in one inning. You want goals? Your goal in EVERY rack should be to get into the next rack. That's it. You want control. You don't want your opponent to have a single scoring opportunity. If they're at the table, somehow, you failed to accomplish the task at hand. 8-6 every rack may win you games. Hell, I can talk all day about how to win when playing my sister but that doesn't mean it's worthy of posting. 8-6 every rack only shows that every rack, you failed to convert.

One more time. TAP! TAP! TAP!

kennyratt
02-22-2007, 06:30 PM
To Jude, Steve and others trying to help; Thanks for all of your advice and expertise. It is GREATLY appreciated!!! Regards, Kennyratt

Slider
02-22-2007, 06:56 PM
I'm not meaning to nit pick your post, but I want to expand bit on this point.

Thinning balls is defiantly a skill to learn, but I see it way overused. IMHO, thinning a ball in the pack for a safety is a last resort. Typically, all you accomplish with this move is to leave your opponent without an offensive shot. This is only half the goal of a safety. A complete safety leaves your opponent no offensive shots and very limited defensive shots. It is much better to play safeties into the pack, sticking the cue on the side and popping out balls on the other side. This puts your opponent in a much tougher position and increases the likely hood he will leave you a shot after his turn.

That's what I'm finding out from better players who have spent some time in straight pool. Just the other day a friend showed me how and when to hit the second ball from the corner, spit some balls out the other side and kill the cue on the stack.

I have to say though, that nudging a ball back into (or behind) the pile and leaving the cue ball on the head rail does tend to satisfy both of the requirements of a good safety - as long as something "dead" isn't generated in the process.

Ken

The Kiss
02-22-2007, 07:40 PM
See here is where the rubber meets the road...We have 2 bonafide pros and another NYC player telling you the only way to win is to run balls..Well at the A level or higher that is Absolutely correct


But where the game of pool is played in the trenches in most rooms across the country the Level of play is not fantastic....So better defense and overall smarter play is what is going to seperate 1 player from another..

I say to get better master the Defense as well as pocket balls and play the smart paterns....The overall game is complex it is a chess match...

8 to 6 is a winning rack not your goal.....This board is generally weak on real pool.....Somreone finally posts a good question and you get drummed out of here by the experts...Someone even had the balls to call me Fast Larry..

Whatever....

Who ever the origanal poster was try to Defense it will improve your game...

Blackjack
02-22-2007, 08:09 PM
See here is where the rubber meets the road...We have 2 bonafide pros and another NYC player telling you the only way to win is to run balls..Well at the A level or higher that is Absolutely correct


But where the game of pool is played in the trenches in most rooms across the country the Level of play is not fantastic....So better defense and overall smarter play is what is going to seperate 1 player from another..

I say to get better master the Defense as well as pocket balls and play the smart paterns....The overall game is complex it is a chess match...

8 to 6 is a winning rack not your goal.....This board is generally weak on real pool.....Somreone finally posts a good question and you get drummed out of here by the experts...Someone even had the balls to call me Fast Larry..

Whatever....

Who ever the origanal poster was try to Defense it will improve your game...

Noone is disputing that, however - IN POOL - defense is utilized in response to defense or it is utilized after you made an error in judgment, therefore bringing your offense to a halt.

Pool as well as learning depend upon your attitude. If you have an open mind, you will learn. If you close off your mind and believe that you cannot learn from others you are in for a long life. The choice is yours. Steve Lipsky and I play the game of 14.1 continuous very differently yet we learn from each other every time the subject comes up. Its about respecting the views and knowledge of others and being willing to learn something new every day. You will notice that the better players never stop learning. Its a great habit to mimic.

PoolSharkAllen
02-22-2007, 09:44 PM
Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks![/QUOTE]

Sometimes, we can learn a lot by watching the masters play. I'd like to recommend the following two very instructive Accu-stats tapes:
1. Oliver Ortmann vs. Jim Rempe
2. Efren Reyes vs. Jim Rempe

Both Ortmann and Reyes ran 100+ balls in their games.

One advantage of watching video tapes is that you can play the tapes over and over and learn something new every time.

Nick B
02-22-2007, 09:49 PM
I'm not meaning to nit pick your post, but I want to expand bit on this point.

Thinning balls is defiantly a skill to learn, but I see it way overused. IMHO, thinning a ball in the pack for a safety is a last resort. Typically, all you accomplish with this move is to leave your opponent without an offensive shot. This is only half the goal of a safety. A complete safety leaves your opponent no offensive shots and very limited defensive shots. It is much better to play safeties into the pack, sticking the cue on the side and popping out balls on the other side. This puts your opponent in a much tougher position and increases the likely hood he will leave you a shot after his turn.

Babe Cranfield addresses this in The Straight Pool Bible.

Absolutely! Thinning balls is way to passive and puts no heat on your opponent. So you thin a ball and and leave me slammed against stack. Big Deal. If there are no floaters to make me pay then I just thin back and leave distance.

No what defendomatrons? It's still a gun fight and you still need to spill some blood to win. I'm to old to think that defense and finesse don't win games...but it's generally more like a bump to a spike.

Nick

pdcue
02-23-2007, 03:54 AM
See here is where the rubber meets the road...We have 2 bonafide pros and another NYC player telling you the only way to win is to run balls..Well at the A level or higher that is Absolutely correct


But where the game of pool is played in the trenches in most rooms across the country the Level of play is not fantastic....So better defense and overall smarter play is what is going to seperate 1 player from another..

I say to get better master the Defense as well as pocket balls and play the smart paterns....The overall game is complex it is a chess match...

8 to 6 is a winning rack not your goal.....This board is generally weak on real pool.....Somreone finally posts a good question and you get drummed out of here by the experts...Someone even had the balls to call me Fast Larry..

Whatever....

Who ever the origanal poster was try to Defense it will improve your game...

That would be me, and typically you missed that I called you
Fast Larry's cousin
because,
even now you still can't let go that the OP did NOT ask how to win
games - he asked how to RUN BALLS

once more with feeling
anyone who can play at all knows defense is important - it can
sometimes even win you a game

Let's by all means, have a thread about defense as an integral
part of a winning strategy

This thread is about how to run balls
what are your thoughts on the advice given on running balls?

Dale<who thinks reading is even more inportant than defense>

Vinman
02-23-2007, 06:14 AM
Please share any tips, strategy or advice that might help us aspiring straight pool players. Thanks!

Sometimes, we can learn a lot by watching the masters play. I'd like to recommend the following two very instructive Accu-stats tapes:
1. Oliver Ortmann vs. Jim Rempe
2. Efren Reyes vs. Jim Rempe

Both Ortmann and Reyes ran 100+ balls in their games.

One advantage of watching video tapes is that you can play the tapes over and over and learn something new every time.[/QUOTE]


I have both tapes and you are right, they are great matches and a lot can be learned. Efren’s pattern play, as pointed out by the commentators, differs somewhat from the traditional but it opened my eyes to other possibilities.

Hierovision
02-23-2007, 07:48 AM
Nobody ever said defense was a bad thing. What they're discrediting is your advice of keeping 8 balls a rack in your mind while clearing the table. I believe keeping any amount in your mind (other than the out amount) would interfere with the planning for clearing the entire rack... since the game is about racking up the most points. If you mess up somehow play a great defensive shot... everyone can agree there.

I think I'm going to listen to the instructors on this one. I can't run more than 2 racks yet but I know I won't get better by screwing around after making 8 balls after the first rack. That just means I'll be sitting down while the other person runs a few... then when I get back to the table it's 8-48 while I'm left with NO shot because my opponent understands when to play defense.

I know you're not saying to screw around after making 8, but that shouldn't be anyone's goal no matter how novice. The goal should be 100 or 150 or 50 or whatever the amount is to win. TO WIN.

And you can easily, without effort, avoid insulting people while still making a point.

The Kiss
02-23-2007, 08:26 AM
You proved my point......Hey I am only as insulting as the Next guy...

The point is for a beginner which I am inclined to think the original poster is...Defense and smart play leads to better runs period....Force the other guy into tough spots, and open the rack for run to string runs...

Then we get the typical mentality that you have to run big runs to win and get better which is true....But you can also run 14 play safe, run 14 safe, make 10 safe until and so on until you get the win...

Sure it is not as pretty, but if you know your limitations and play smart you can get the W...

Its a different stategy thats all.....No one seems to like it


You dont' start off hitting 95 mph fastballs when you barely know what it takes to swing the bat....

Hierovision
02-23-2007, 08:35 AM
Exactly true. Someone of my level will inevitably make position mistakes and be forced to shoot a safety within one or two racks. I think we're all actually in agreement in the big picture, it was just presented in a way that was easily misunderstood and some were offended.

Jude Rosenstock
02-23-2007, 09:12 AM
You proved my point......Hey I am only as insulting as the Next guy...

The point is for a beginner which I am inclined to think the original poster is...Defense and smart play leads to better runs period....Force the other guy into tough spots, and open the rack for run to string runs...

Then we get the typical mentality that you have to run big runs to win and get better which is true....But you can also run 14 play safe, run 14 safe, make 10 safe until and so on until you get the win...

Sure it is not as pretty, but if you know your limitations and play smart you can get the W...

Its a different stategy thats all.....No one seems to like it


You dont' start off hitting 95 mph fastballs when you barely know what it takes to swing the bat....


Kiss, part of the problem here is you lack perspective. I mean, we know what it's like to play straight pool as a D-player. You seem to not know what it's like to play as an A player nor do I think you're aware of how to get there yet.

You're using analogies that make little or no sense and it only adds to the mounting evidence that suggests you're a D-player, too. Now, you want to be successful as a D-player, that's fine. There are plenty of people in this world that live a wonderful life with D-player success. But that's not what this thread nor this forum is about. We're all on the path to greater pool and the goal isn't to maximize your wins against inferior opponents but to try and achieve greatness, even if only for a day.

That's why we're butting heads. That's why it seems like everyone is ganging-up on you. Hey, your strategy will work fine against the local lot of 4-ball runners. If that's straight pool for you, fine. There's nothing wrong with it but please try to understand AND RESPECT the fact that you go against the grain here. We, the members of azb, are not about that. For most of us, our goals are slightly higher.

The Kiss
02-23-2007, 10:01 AM
No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

The Kiss
02-23-2007, 10:08 AM
No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any

Jude Rosenstock
02-23-2007, 10:35 AM
No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any


You know, all you've been is belligerent and disrespectful and throughout this discussion, I've tried to be respectful of your opinions while voicing my own. You've called me "Fast Eddie" and "a troll" and spent a significant portion of this thread discussing your 8-6 scoring-strategy. The only thing I've done is question your knowledge of the game but that's based entirely on what you've posted thus far.

Paid your dues? I really have NO IDEA what you mean by this. Being respectful and paying your dues have nothing to do with one-another and I'm not going to accept your belligerence because you feel your travels all over the Eastcoast entitles you to such.

philw
02-23-2007, 10:49 AM
You know, all you've been is belligerent and disrespectful and throughout this discussion, I've tried to be respectful of your opinions while voicing my own. You've called me "Fast Eddie" and "a troll" and spent a significant portion of this thread discussing your 8-6 scoring-strategy. The only thing I've done is question your knowledge of the game but that's based entirely on what you've posted thus far.

Paid your dues? I really have NO IDEA what you mean by this. Being respectful and paying your dues have nothing to do with one-another and I'm not going to accept your belligerence because you feel your travels all over the Eastcoast entitles you to such.

Jude, you have been nothing but respectful. I have read this entire thread and am wondering why Kiss keeps responding. The information you, Blackjack, and numerous others have posted exhibits a wealth of knowledge of the game. I really think Kiss was just trying to stir people up.
After awhile it's apparent that he is hardheaded and can't comprehend your posts. Thanks for all the insightful not inciteful information I can't wait to play some straight pool now!! Philw

The Kiss
02-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Whatever.....The original question was about strategies in 14.1

According to this board there is only one that will work for getting better at 14.1...Make more balls...

Is there only 1 stategy in any game? Baseball, basketball???

Is it more important to learn to put the ball in the hoop in basketball first, or to learn how to pass, or play defense, rebound.....Or in time do you put it all together....

You keep adding pieces to your game ideas and strategies...Eventually it all comes together...

You don't walk before you can run

pdcue
02-24-2007, 02:47 AM
Whatever.....The original question was about strategies in 14.1

According to this board there is only one that will work for getting better at 14.1...Make more balls...

Is there only 1 stategy in any game? Baseball, basketball???

Is it more important to learn to put the ball in the hoop in basketball first, or to learn how to pass, or play defense, rebound.....Or in time do you put it all together....

You keep adding pieces to your game ideas and strategies...Eventually it all comes together...

You don't walk before you can run

You got pi$$'d because I compared you to Fast Larry
You've convinced me, the time has come for me to
make an apology...............

To Fast Larry

Dale<who knows one when he sees one>

Gerry
02-24-2007, 05:58 AM
No Jude, here's what you don't get...I play pretty solid B level straight pool in fact it is my best game...i don't lack any perspective I have been playing straight pool for over 20 years and have soaked up knowledge from better Older players all along the way..

Many of them High ball runners, my own high run is 44 hit 30s consitantley......I have also infuriated beter players into losses with great safety play...Straight pool can be won in the head or with the high run...


I go against the grain because I have the ability to think...therefore I am..

I don't need some guy like you to explain any thing about the game to me..Thanks

Blackjack and Steve I value what they have to say....Jude You just come off as a troll that does'nt agree so I am wrong......You have a high opinion of your self..I've played this game a long time and all over the East Coast, paid my dues and you talk about Respect...But you have a strange way of Showing any


you've been playing 14.1 for 20 years and 44 is your best run?....you have no place spewing advise...ESPECIALLY to 100+ ball runners.

your a thinker huh?....think about a new way to go about the game....44 ball high run in 20 years is an example of a bad process......but then again those who can't teach! or trry to teach.

YES you do need a guy like him to explain the game to you!......now go think about that....

I can run 40/50 weekly, with a few runs in the 100's......I'm from the East Coast, and I don't consider myself a straight pool player.......YET!

Gerry

acedotcom
02-24-2007, 08:50 AM
I hope this won't be considered an attempted "hi-jacking" of this thread, but something that has always confounded me about 14.1 is finding dead balls in the stack that you can use to break them up.

When I began playing many years ago, the owner of a little one-table pool room I used to go to (an older guy) was incredible at finding dead balls in the stack. He'd study the stack from all angles, then call a ball that was right smack dab in the middle to go in the corner pocket. He'd blast away (or that's how it appeared, at least), and sure enough, that ball that had been surrounded would slowly make it's way through the chaos and drop right in the corner pocket. I could never get him to share his knowledge about how to do that. He'd just say, "That's my secret, Boy." He never ran more than 30 balls or so (always blew position or a thin cut), but he was incredible at finding dead balls.

Anybody know this secret? Any books out there about it?

George in VA

I would just say that dead shots in the rack are primarily of two kinds: 1. Frozen ball combos with throw and 2. Kiss shots. Once you know how two frozen balls react when approached from different angles, and you know how balls are going to deflect off each other, you should be able to determine the majority of dead shots in the rack. Other shots, may be more intricate involving two or three other elements, like a throw-kiss-combo. BTW, this skill is transferable to other games too. It never ceases to amaze me when players miss simple shots involving two frozen balls because they strike them on the wrong side.

Off hand, I know that Mosconi On Pocket Billiards covers this briefly.

dmgwalsh
02-25-2007, 08:35 AM
This is beginner-strategy. I've said this before; beginner-strategy almost need not be discussed. It should go without saying that you don't blast the rack when no shot is evident.

My point is that when a shot IS available, you take it. When there's a break-shot, you play for it. The goal is to run balls NOT to get 8 points per rack. If you want to get better at this game, you'll have to get past 8-6 and start thinking of how to clear the table and get into the next rack. I find that people who think 8-6 never grow out of it. People who think 'run' are always improving.

I agree with Jude. The only way to improve is to try to play 14.1 the right way, even if you can't quite do it yet. I'm in 2 straight pool leagues and some of the guys have been in the leagues for many years and barely improve. They pick off whatever is on the table and rarely work for a break shot. If you leave the intended break shot on the table, it may be the first thing they
pick off.

A few weeks ago, I lost a match to a better shooter, but I didn't feel too bad, because I was getting on a lot of my break shots and getting part of the way through the next rack before I did something stupid and handed my broken racks over to him. It occurred to me that I was breaking most of the racks and that his patterns were not quite as good as mine. At least I was improving a certain aspect of my game.

Last thursday a guy I played that I had to spot 65 balls to in a race to 125 got the same break shot at least three times. Nothing. He calls safe, pots the ball and gives me a 15 ball rack to look at. I remarked that that was his favorite break shot, but I don't think he got it.

I think we have to try to play the right way and hopefully execution will get better.

The Kiss
02-25-2007, 12:54 PM
you've been playing 14.1 for 20 years and 44 is your best run?....you have no place spewing advise...ESPECIALLY to 100+ ball runners.

your a thinker huh?....think about a new way to go about the game....44 ball high run in 20 years is an example of a bad process......but then again those who can't teach! or trry to teach.

YES you do need a guy like him to explain the game to you!......now go think about that....

I can run 40/50 weekly, with a few runs in the 100's......I'm from the East Coast, and I don't consider myself a straight pool player.......YET!

Gerry

I won't let this die.....My only point is running balls and winning the game is to entirely 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.....If you can't run balls yet learn some defense...Thats it can you people understand that???????

Unless you can run out every time you need to kinow what to do when the run is over...Or how to get the run started with Defense...Hello..... Point blank simple

What is so earth shaking about that???? I am not doubting the process of better play ideas from Blackjack or Steve....I don't play as good as them nor have i spent the time or do I want to to play the game up to their level..

Many peolpe in this World have knowledge it is'nt the 100 ball runners who ONLY have something positive to offer...

According to you guys it is this way...bunch of lemmings


I'lll leave you with this idea...In the professional Sports coaching ranks name me all the Superstars who went on to become great Coaches Vs. The Becnch Warmers and Scrubs who went on to Championships

Point is the Stars and the Knowledge of the game is'nt Exclusive by a long shot...

But according to most of the collective opinions of this board that is the way it works....Get a life or an origianl thought either one might be a First...

pdcue
02-25-2007, 06:29 PM
I won't let this die.....My only point is running balls and winning the game is to entirely 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.....If you can't run balls yet learn some defense...Thats it can you people understand that???????

Unless you can run out every time you need to kinow what to do when the run is over...Or how to get the run started with Defense...Hello..... Point blank simple

What is so earth shaking about that???? I am not doubting the process of better play ideas from Blackjack or Steve....I don't play as good as them nor have i spent the time or do I want to to play the game up to their level..

Many peolpe in this World have knowledge it is'nt the 100 ball runners who ONLY have something positive to offer...

According to you guys it is this way...bunch of lemmings


I'lll leave you with this idea...In the professional Sports coaching ranks name me all the Superstars who went on to become great Coaches Vs. The Becnch Warmers and Scrubs who went on to Championships

Point is the Stars and the Knowledge of the game is'nt Exclusive by a long shot...

But according to most of the collective opinions of this board that is the way it works....Get a life or an origianl thought either one might be a First...

Why do you continue with such a comitment to stupidity?
How many times have you been told the OP asked for advice on
running ball - not winning games

How many times have you been told we all understand defence matters?

Perhaps you might find someone who can read with comprehension
to explain the post to you, since you quite obviously can't
understand on your own.

It is a bit disturbing that everyone else on this forum is enjoying
positive info exchange and even polite conversation.

It's truly a shame you are so miserable you need to try to
disrupt such a good situation just to get a little atention

Welcome to the blocked list

Dale

mthornto
02-25-2007, 07:27 PM
I think this has gotten a little too personal, and the bigger picture is getting lost. I honestly think the disagreeing parties are closer then they think. This is a straight pool forum, can't we try to raise the bar a bit?

I believe stating the disagreement as an issue of playing 8-6 vs big runs is not all that accurate or beneficial. Instead, let’s discuss the larger issue of when to vs when not to play safe. That is really what this comes down to. In every match, we have to make decisions at the table that dictate the direction a rack takes. I think some of these decisions must factor in our current skill level.

Let’s look at a specific situation that comes up a lot for players like myself that do not yet play strong and see how each side would choose to play it. I know I will learn from the all answers.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AQlx4BDVt3CCoq4DAeC4EQmf3FFjv4GBKd4HATt3ICAn3JH Gh4KEMO3LBrR3MElF4NByc1OIrk3PCCC@

What to you do with this? I tried to set it up so that there is a shot on the five, but it is hard. I also setup the 10 so that it should be dead in the corner.

I see two choices:
1) Pocket the 5, 15, 1, then the 10 as a secondary break.
2) Soft stop shot on the 6 stopping the cue ball and rolling the 10 to the rail for a legal safe.

A good player probably chooses option 1 (maybe a different pattern, but you get the idea). Would a weaker player be better off playing the safety now?

Are situations like this not what the disagreement is really about?

Steve Lipsky
02-25-2007, 08:21 PM
I think this has gotten a little too personal, and the bigger picture is getting lost. I honestly think the disagreeing parties are closer then they think. This is a straight pool forum, can't we try to raise the bar a bit?

I believe stating the disagreement as an issue of playing 8-6 vs big runs is not all that accurate or beneficial. Instead, let’s discuss the larger issue of when to vs when not to play safe. That is really what this comes down to. In every match, we have to make decisions at the table that dictate the direction a rack takes. I think some of these decisions must factor in our current skill level.

Let’s look at a specific situation that comes up a lot for players like myself that do not yet play strong and see how each side would choose to play it. I know I will learn from the all answers.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AQlx4BDVt3CCoq4DAeC4EQmf3FFjv4GBKd4HATt3ICAn3JH Gh4KEMO3LBrR3MElF4NByc1OIrk3PCCC@

What to you do with this? I tried to set it up so that there is a shot on the five, but it is hard. I also setup the 10 so that it should be dead in the corner.

I see two choices:
1) Pocket the 5, 15, 1, then the 10 as a secondary break.
2) Soft stop shot on the 6 stopping the cue ball and rolling the 10 to the rail for a legal safe.

A good player probably chooses option 1 (maybe a different pattern, but you get the idea). Would a weaker player be better off playing the safety now?

Are situations like this not what the disagreement is really about?


M,

With the 1 ball by that corner pocket, you should play the 5 with no fear. There is no scratch, because you would hit the 1. This might be where the difference between an advanced player and an intermediate player would come into play; the advanced player should feel comfortable enough making the 5 that he can play it with some english to avoid the 1 altogether. The intermediate player might put all his energy into just making the 5, and let the cueball land wherever it will naturally.

But because of the dead 10, no matter where your cueball lands it's not a problem. Notice that not only is the 10 dead, but you don't even have to hit it first. As long as you hit the 3, you'll make the 10.

So the truth is, because you can hit the 3 from basically anywhere on the table your cueball might land after making the 5, all levels of players in my opinion should be offensive here.

To be honest, because neither the 1 nor the 15 are trouble balls (and can in fact serve as nice insurance balls after hitting the rack open with the 3), I would probably look to play the 5 and then the 10 immediately after.

- Steve

Drew
02-25-2007, 09:54 PM
M,

With the 1 ball by that corner pocket, you should play the 5 with no fear. There is no scratch, because you would hit the 1. This might be where the difference between an advanced player and an intermediate player would come into play; the advanced player should feel comfortable enough making the 5 that he can play it with some english to avoid the 1 altogether. The intermediate player might put all his energy into just making the 5, and let the cueball land wherever it will naturally.

But because of the dead 10, no matter where your cueball lands it's not a problem. Notice that not only is the 10 dead, but you don't even have to hit it first. As long as you hit the 3, you'll make the 10.

So the truth is, because you can hit the 3 from basically anywhere on the table your cueball might land after making the 5, all levels of players in my opinion should be offensive here.

To be honest, because neither the 1 nor the 15 are trouble balls (and can in fact serve as nice insurance balls after hitting the rack open with the 3), I would probably look to play the 5 and then the 10 immediately after.

- Steve

Hmm...you've left out the option of missing the 5 and selling out the rack. In this particular situation, the 5 is a relatively simple cut, but suppose it were a few inches closer to the long rail. This increases the shot difficulty to the point where I would rather play safe. The foot spot looks obstructed so call safe and bank the 5 towards the side. Follow the cb back to the top of the stack hopefully freezing to the 4. Should the 5 drop in the side, it spots behind the 4 and the cb leaving your opponent in one hell of a situation. I'm new to this game but this actually looks like a great option.

Steve Lipsky
02-25-2007, 10:33 PM
Drew,

Do you mean something like this?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AQlx4BDVt3CCoq4DAeC4EOyE3FFjv4GBKd4HATt3ICAn3JH Gh4KEMO3LBrR3MElF4NByc1OIrk3PCCC4YOyE4YbIS3YNvq3YN vq3kCCC4kMuN4kbJH4kCpq4kChq@

Drew
02-25-2007, 11:12 PM
Drew,

Do you mean something like this?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AQlx4BDVt3CCoq4DAeC4EOyE3FFjv4GBKd4HATt3ICAn3JH Gh4KEMO3LBrR3MElF4NByc1OIrk3PCCC4YOyE4YbIS3YNvq3YN vq3kCCC4kMuN4kbJH4kCpq4kChq@

Sorry I'm not very proficient with the cuetable.com stuff. That's pretty close to what I meant. I'd much rather be on the other side of the 4 since it looks like the 4 goes into the corner and/or the danger of pushing the 4 into a position where it definitely goes into the corner. With the 10 so easy to pocket and use as a breakout, I'd be very cautious about giving up any balls.

BTW: is there a crash course or something I can take to master cuetable.com???

poolplayer2093
02-26-2007, 03:31 AM
I'd try to bank the 5 and stay bellow the 4 so you could use that as a break ball. and use the 1 as an insurance ball (if you don't get stuck behind a ball) i'm still new to 14.1 but i'm trying

Gerry
02-26-2007, 05:59 AM
Well "thekiss" I'll say this about newbys learning the game. Instead of them playing standard 14.1 maybe tell them to play total offense 14.1. What I mean is NO SAFETIES. You can make up your own rules, but the basic thing is you must go for some type of shot or take a maybe a 5 ball penalty. This will teach them to RUN BALLS the basis for 14.1. It's just a more fun way to learn, and IMO safety theory is MUCH easier to learn then how to run big numbers.

Later after new guys can learn to run a few racks, THEN the defense game comes into play more. I'm of the thinking that you can never get loose and run out playing safe too much, and YES I know how important it is not to give up shots, but were talking how to teach new players.....not safety theory IMO.

I know my last post was nasty, but hey we all have crappy days, that was one of mine....sorry

Gerry

Drew
02-26-2007, 12:13 PM
I'd try to bank the 5 and stay bellow the 4 so you could use that as a break ball. and use the 1 as an insurance ball (if you don't get stuck behind a ball) i'm still new to 14.1 but i'm trying

I guess if you are absolutely 100% sure that you will make that bank, then by all means, shoot it. Unfortunately I'm not that good, and the last thing I want to do is miss the bank leaving a beautiful shot on the 4. Might as well sit down because that rack is done.

Neil
02-26-2007, 04:15 PM
................

Tennesseejoe
02-26-2007, 08:18 PM
I agree that the 6 is the way to go. You can shoot it off the 9 and get a better break.

poolplayer2093
02-27-2007, 11:17 AM
I guess if you are absolutely 100% sure that you will make that bank, then by all means, shoot it. Unfortunately I'm not that good, and the last thing I want to do is miss the bank leaving a beautiful shot on the 4. Might as well sit down because that rack is done.


i'm not great player either but you gotta risk something to get the reward. i like to play agressive, i think it's just the way i am. i heard it on an accu stats tape one time "fortune favors the bold"


ps i lose a lot

poolplayer2093
02-27-2007, 11:26 AM
wait so does nobody else think that's a good idea? banking the 5 that is
too agressive?

Steve Lipsky
02-27-2007, 12:03 PM
The problem is that we started combining diagrams... nobody knows to which layout we are referring anymore, lol.

In the original diagram, not cutting the 5 in the corner is outrageously wrong (unless that 6 really can't miss off the 10, in which case that shot might be better). Then someone said, "well, what if the 5 were not where it was shown, but a couple inches out (making the 5 almost impossible)?" Since then there have been some replies that I think are referencing that, but I can't quite tell.

This thread has gotten a tad confusing ;)

- Steve

supergreenman
02-27-2007, 01:00 PM
deleted......... suffice to say, it's possible to show someone the the stars but not teach them to dream of the stars.

Drew
02-27-2007, 03:38 PM
The problem is that we started combining diagrams... nobody knows to which layout we are referring anymore, lol.

In the original diagram, not cutting the 5 in the corner is outrageously wrong (unless that 6 really can't miss off the 10, in which case that shot might be better). Then someone said, "well, what if the 5 were not where it was shown, but a couple inches out (making the 5 almost impossible)?" Since then there have been some replies that I think are referencing that, but I can't quite tell.

This thread has gotten a tad confusing ;)

- Steve

Sorry. In the original diagram, you should definitely cut the 5. I don't like the 6 because the 5 is too close to that corner and you may end up having to shoot either a combo or a long shot on the 10. With the 1 and 15 on the other end of the table, you should have no problem after shooting the 5. I just wanted to point out that should the 5 be in a position where you couldn't make it, you might want to shoot the safe. I wouldn't even consider banking the 5 because it's such a low percentage shot. In straight pool I tend to only play the 80% or higher balls.

Wink
07-07-2010, 10:12 PM
I gotta tell ya, old threads like this are VERY valuable.

I just got motivated to try to get my 14.1 game going well again. It has been years since I have played any decent players, and I have been limited to 8-ball 95% of the time, or LONG 9-ball games. Anyhow, I have been playing 2-3 hours of straight practice for the past few days.

I can run an open rack, get a few secondary breaks, and even leave a good break ball most of the time. I need to work more on my Set-up ball, so that I can get better CB position for the Break Ball. I was thinking Key Ball, Break Ball.. adding the Set Up Ball should help significantly.

Years ago, I could transition and run a few racks. At the moment, it seems all I can do is run a rack... and that is it.

There are some GREAT tips and wisdom in this thread! I greatly appreciate to the info, and practice tips. I also LOVE the idea of practicing with a friend with NO SAFETIES. That really puts the pressure on us to run, and learn how to put rack transitions together.

Playing 8-6 mentality isn't gonna help any of us improve our games.

Thanks for all the great input that many of you put into this thread. I look forward to learning more as I read more of the site.