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Njhustler1
02-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Anybody go last year? Worth watching? Big crowds? yada yada yada...

climbtrad
02-26-2007, 02:34 PM
I went last year and it was definitely worth it. Saw Hohmann run 170+

They had VIP seating close to the tables (would have been better if the seating was elevated a little more instead of in chairs) and they also had bleacher seating for a lower general admission price. I bought a VIP pass for the whole week since I wasn't sure a 14.1 event of this scale would ever be held again. There were plenty of great players many of whom I am sure will be invited back.

Would have to say if you like 14.1 you will not be disappointed. There were several 100+ ball runs. The venue isn't too bad and hopefully they will have a few of the kinks from last year worked out.

I will definitely be going again.

David

VKJ
02-27-2007, 09:31 AM
Go.
I want last year. It was well worth it. I was also there when Thorsten ran the 170. Amazing! Basicly a very good event. There were a few things that needed to be improved upon but overall well worth it.

kaznj
02-27-2007, 10:15 AM
I went to all the day sessions. Saw Sigel, Varner, Lee, Archer and many other great straight pool players. I agree the VIP seats should have been elevated, but everything else was wonderful. I think it was a disappointing turn out. Small crowds for the day sessions. I hope there will be enough people this year to keep this thing going. Seyberts was there selling stuff. They were the only retailers.

NYC cue dude
02-27-2007, 12:17 PM
July 9th through July 14th @ the Hilton hotel in EAST Brunswick, NJ.

Same format, 64 players, eith groups of round robin (all players play atleast 7 times) top four from each group advance to the tournament brackets.

If you search seyberts archives under world straight pool championships, there is a lot of info on last years event.

Unfortunately, we can't elevate the VIP seats.

This year we will have better score keeping methods and I think we will increase the numer of payouts to the top 32 (meaning anyone who advances out of the round robin stages.)

Hope to see you there.

RG

BTW, the dvd is finally available for this event.

BANKONIT
02-27-2007, 12:53 PM
If You Are Into 14.1 You Must Be There. Room Rates Are Reasonable. The Place To Be For 14.1

Gerry
02-27-2007, 06:19 PM
I'm not that far from this event and will be there! maybe us AZrs can meet up?

maybe a banner is in order?....

Gerry

pdcue
02-27-2007, 09:33 PM
I'm not that far from this event and will be there! maybe us AZrs can meet up?

maybe a banner is in order?....

Gerry

And T-shirts?

Dale

Njhustler1
02-28-2007, 07:06 AM
Well if all goes according to plan, the straight pool design you see here on your left, will be on sale. We're not certain yet whether they're allowing vendors. If so, PoolTees will be on hand.

We can probably work out some sort of discount for AZB members.

mthornto
02-28-2007, 08:20 AM
July 9th through July 14th @ the Hilton hotel in EAST Brunswick, NJ.

Same format, 64 players, eith groups of round robin (all players play atleast 7 times) top four from each group advance to the tournament brackets.

If you search seyberts archives under world straight pool championships, there is a lot of info on last years event.

Unfortunately, we can't elevate the VIP seats.

This year we will have better score keeping methods and I think we will increase the numer of payouts to the top 32 (meaning anyone who advances out of the round robin stages.)

Hope to see you there.

RG

BTW, the dvd is finally available for this event.


Randy,

What airport is best to fly into? Newark?

From East Brunswick, is there is train from there to NYC? Easy to get to from the hotel?

Sorry to hit you up like you a are a tour guide. I lived in NYC about 15 years ago, but I am not at all familiar with East Brunswick.

TheOne
02-28-2007, 08:36 AM
Randy,

What airport is best to fly into? Newark?

From East Brunswick, is there is train from there to NYC? Easy to get to from the hotel?

Sorry to hit you up like you a are a tour guide. I lived in NYC about 15 years ago, but I am not at all familiar with East Brunswick.

I went to NYC a few times from the hotel. Yes there is a train, can't remember how much prob NJ Transit. Took about an hour I think, taxi to hotel from station was about 10 bucks. Newark is closest.

Randy, great news they're keep same format I was grueling but def one of the highlights.

pool
02-28-2007, 09:25 AM
I was there last year. The event was even more awesome than the thunderstorms that ripped a hole in the roof and poured water down into the playing arena. I was surprised at how small the crowds were, but it made for an intimate feel. This was my first exposure to Jasmin Ouschan and I was immediately hooked. I still believe she will be the dominant woman player in billiards someday. She has an amazing game.

I will say that the only trouble I experienced was with the hotel staff and service in general. The room I had reserved months in advance was not available due to construction. I needed a double, but only got a single. No compensation. The staff in the restaurants was very slow and not very attentive to customers (unless it was Allen Hopkins throwing around the green - lol). I wouldn't say this is unique to the Hilton there as service seemed to be poor in other places of business around the East Brunswick area. I really feel like it was just one of those times when a few things go bad and then everything seems to go bad.

The 14.1 didn't dissappoint at all, though. I learned a lot about the game. The difference between the European style and American style was remarkable. I am considering going this year. The event is great, but I was not happy to see the same venue listed...

NYC cue dude
02-28-2007, 09:43 AM
No one is more excited about this event than I am. I can't wait to see he final list of 64.

I agree with some of you with regards to the Hilton there not being very attentive. I was surprised at the slow inattentive service as well. I recall on the final day, they didnt even want to give me a late checkout, until I flipped out in the lobby telling the manager I was the reason the event was being held there in the first place. good grief.

But we came to very good terms with the management there, despite the roof colapse and other things. In fact, the understnading we reached is part of the reason we were able to repeat the event this year.

As far as vendors are concerned, i have talked to charlie about this and we are going to make an effort to have more on hand. Additionally, I will be running the "official" 2007 world straight pool championship merchandise.

Any ideas on what we should sell besides t shirts, caps and key chains?

Randy

TheOne
02-28-2007, 10:10 AM
No one is more excited about this event than I am. I can't wait to see he final list of 64.

I agree with some of you with regards to the Hilton there not being very attentive. I was surprised at the slow inattentive service as well. I recall on the final day, they didnt even want to give me a late checkout, until I flipped out in the lobby telling the manager I was the reason the event was being held there in the first place. good grief.

But we came to very good terms with the management there, despite the roof colapse and other things. In fact, the understnading we reached is part of the reason we were able to repeat the event this year.

As far as vendors are concerned, i have talked to charlie about this and we are going to make an effort to have more on hand. Additionally, I will be running the "official" 2007 world straight pool championship merchandise.

Any ideas on what we should sell besides t shirts, caps and key chains?

Randy

Shame you couldn't get any 14.1 memorabilia from past greats, copies of the signed Mosconi affidavit etc, any accustats or other high run videos. Would also be good if somebody could put together some sort of definitive list of high runs, both in competition and practice, and maybe past world champions. Even if these where just posters I'm sure they would be popular.

Would also like to see a high run table like DCC, but not sure the players would use it given the schedule. It would be good to warm up on though.

Just some random thoughts

pdcue
02-28-2007, 10:47 AM
Well if all goes according to plan, the straight pool design you see here on your left, will be on sale. We're not certain yet whether they're allowing vendors. If so, PoolTees will be on hand.

We can probably work out some sort of discount for AZB members.

Great news PoolTees

Let me see
Straight pool fan...
is the Nj, by any chance for New Jersy?

Dale<cue dective expanding his investigations>

pool
02-28-2007, 11:13 AM
No one is more excited about this event than I am. I can't wait to see he final list of 64.

I agree with some of you with regards to the Hilton there not being very attentive. I was surprised at the slow inattentive service as well. I recall on the final day, they didnt even want to give me a late checkout, until I flipped out in the lobby telling the manager I was the reason the event was being held there in the first place. good grief.

But we came to very good terms with the management there, despite the roof colapse and other things. In fact, the understnading we reached is part of the reason we were able to repeat the event this year.

As far as vendors are concerned, i have talked to charlie about this and we are going to make an effort to have more on hand. Additionally, I will be running the "official" 2007 world straight pool championship merchandise.

Any ideas on what we should sell besides t shirts, caps and key chains?

Randy

Randy,

I was thrilled to see another 14.1 Championship tournament and am glad that it wasn't a one-time deal either. I figured that due to the building issues, at minimum, they would be offering an attractive situation for a return engagement. I thought it was really cool that you played in the event, too. The format was top notch. Round-robin, then progressive elimination rounds. You really got to see a lot of match-ups. The programs were very nice and made for a great autograph book, too.

As far as merchandise... I am glad to hear that there will be some directly related to the event this year. I was bummed when there weren't any shirts to commemorate the last showing. I think the videos are an excellent idea. I would have some from last year's event, some Accustats...and maybe even TheOne's (John Schmidt) video where he explains each shot in a run to 200+. I have been meaning to get that one.

It would also be nice if every match had somebody keeping score. The hanging score cards were nice, but sometime players had to flip them themselves. I would volunteer to be a scorekeeper if I attend. I would guess there are others with a similar level of interest as well.

Gerry
02-28-2007, 02:41 PM
Well if all goes according to plan, the straight pool design you see here on your left, will be on sale. We're not certain yet whether they're allowing vendors. If so, PoolTees will be on hand.

We can probably work out some sort of discount for AZB members.


hey, you should also offer the shirt with the "local 526" on the bottom!

I'll take one no matter whats on it.

Gerry

kaznj
03-01-2007, 06:32 AM
mthornto,
The Hilton in East Brunswick must have a shuttle to the airport. I wouldn't think it would be more than $20. The hotel is only about 30 minutes from the hotel depending on the time of day. You can also take the NJtransit to either Woodbridge or New Brunswick then take a cab. The train ride is about 20 minutes then a cab should only be about 15 minutes. I live about 15 minute from the hotel and my wife works about 2 minutes from the hotel. I hope to meet some fellow AZers there.

NYC cue dude
03-01-2007, 09:50 AM
Randy,

I was thrilled to see another 14.1 Championship tournament and am glad that it wasn't a one-time deal either. I figured that due to the building issues, at minimum, they would be offering an attractive situation for a return engagement. I thought it was really cool that you played in the event, too. The format was top notch. Round-robin, then progressive elimination rounds. You really got to see a lot of match-ups. The programs were very nice and made for a great autograph book, too.

As far as merchandise... I am glad to hear that there will be some directly related to the event this year. I was bummed when there weren't any shirts to commemorate the last showing. I think the videos are an excellent idea. I would have some from last year's event, some Accustats...and maybe even TheOne's (John Schmidt) video where he explains each shot in a run to 200+. I have been meaning to get that one.

It would also be nice if every match had somebody keeping score. The hanging score cards were nice, but sometime players had to flip them themselves. I would volunteer to be a scorekeeper if I attend. I would guess there are others with a similar level of interest as well.

I believe there is free admission for those that volunteer for the rigorous taks of keeping score all week. Please forward your info in a pm if you are interested.

rg

Njhustler1
03-01-2007, 01:37 PM
hey, you should also offer the shirt with the "local 526" on the bottom!

I'll take one no matter whats on it.

Gerry


You'll take a 14.1 shirt and you'll like it! :mad: j/k

Williebetmore
03-03-2007, 10:09 AM
...and maybe even TheOne's (John Schmidt) video where he explains

pool,
Slight error. TheOne is NOT John Schmidt. His name is Craig Riley (check his website which he has a link for in his posts). John Schmidt posts as "John Schmidt" making it somewhat easy to identify him.

Gregg
03-04-2007, 07:56 PM
[QUOTE=pool]I was there last year...This was my first exposure to Jasmin Ouschan and I was immediately hooked. I still believe she will be the dominant woman player in billiards someday. She has an amazing game.../[QUOTE]

Since there really were not that many spectators, people are lying about being there, or just about everyone in attendance was an AZ regular! :p

As far as you pointing out Ouschan, her stroke was more fluid and natural than anybody I remember seeing there.

Very good event to attend, the only problem was the scoring.

I can say I sat in the stands and had NO idea Thorsten Holman was on or close to a 170 run until they announced it.

fred_in_hoboken
03-05-2007, 07:15 PM
Since there really were not that many spectators, people are lying about being there, or just about everyone in attendance was an AZ regular! :p

My wife bought me two of the DVDs for my birthday- one of them is the match between Hohman and Engert, and another, the match between Engert and Immonen.

I saw several AZ posters in the stands:

[In retrospect, this was kind of an invasion of privacy. sorry]

The Engert/immonen disc also has Jeannette Lee playing Goldwater. Periodically, the camera pans to catch Lipsky playing on the next table.

I'm sure there were others in the stands as well.

NYC cue dude
03-08-2007, 10:00 AM
[In retrospect, this was kind of an invasion of privacy. sorry]

The Engert/immonen disc also has Jeannette Lee playing Goldwater. Periodically, the camera pans to catch Lipsky playing on the next table.

I'm sure there were others in the stands as well.

Damn, I was sure I'd go unrecognized. I've been denying that was me for 6 months now!:rolleyes:

rg

briandlau
03-08-2007, 12:21 PM
Randy,

What airport is best to fly into? Newark?

From East Brunswick, is there is train from there to NYC? Easy to get to from the hotel?

Sorry to hit you up like you a are a tour guide. I lived in NYC about 15 years ago, but I am not at all familiar with East Brunswick.

If you are looking to make a trip to NYC from the Hilton, you're better off taking a bus to Port Authority from Tower Center East Brunswick. It is right next door from the hotel and the ride is about 45 min with light traffic. This way, you won't have to cab it to the train station and back afterwards.

fred_in_hoboken
03-09-2007, 12:59 AM
Damn, I was sure I'd go unrecognized. I've been denying that was me for 6 months now!:rolleyes:

rg

ha. well, the names I deleted from my post were people who were *not* playing in the tournament and didn't have their names on the DVDs.

COLLECTION GURU
03-09-2007, 08:29 PM
July 9th through July 14th @ the Hilton hotel in EAST Brunswick, NJ.

i bought all of the dvd's and they are great.

Same format, 64 players, eith groups of round robin (all players play atleast 7 times) top four from each group advance to the tournament brackets.

If you search seyberts archives under world straight pool championships, there is a lot of info on last years event.

Unfortunately, we can't elevate the VIP seats.

This year we will have better score keeping methods and I think we will increase the numer of payouts to the top 32 (meaning anyone who advances out of the round robin stages.)

Hope to see you there.

RG

BTW, the dvd is finally available for this event.
I BOUGHT ALL THE DVD'S AND THEY ARE GREAT;

Bob Jewett
03-15-2007, 05:51 PM
July 9th through July 14th @ the Hilton hotel in EAST Brunswick, NJ. ...
On the DP site and the WPA site it says 8th-14th (Sunday to Saturday). Does it really end on Saturday?

justnum
03-15-2007, 08:31 PM
Last year the event was great, but itd be helpful to the audience if they had some type of closed circuit feed. I remember sitting at the bleachers looking 80ft across the room to see blurs and blond and black shooting pool.

I dont have bad vision but its just easier on the eyes you know. They did have scoreboards but seriously to see that across a 80ft measure, and not want to walk around the room just to respect the players match.

It was an injustice to the audience. If they just had a little tv monitor hooked up to a camera feed. I think the Hilton has built in wiring wall connectors for audio and video, pretty sure about the audio not too sure about the video. That would be a delight and I wouldnt have to be shouting out to see which players are working up a sweat.

Njhustler1
03-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Roughly how many spectators were at this thing during the weeknights, 10, 30, 80, 200? Weekends?

Bob Jewett
03-19-2007, 02:52 PM
Roughly how many spectators were at this thing during the weeknights, 10, 30, 80, 200? Weekends?
I counted heads at the finals. I think it was not over 100, but I'll have to check my notes.

Njhustler1
03-22-2007, 08:16 AM
anyone else? thoughts on number of attendees? if someone (i.e. PoolTees) intends on being a vendor there, does it even make sense to show up during the week if there's only a handful of spectators? or not until the weekend when there's a decent amount of spectators?

tiptoety
03-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Is there a website or futher info for this? Seyberts.com doesn't seem to show anything for 2007. I want to book tickets, and perhaps play a qualifier, or just play an amatuer tourny there.

tiptoety
03-22-2007, 02:14 PM
And can we somehow advertise this better then every other year it's happened. Can you send/email me some flyers i'll put them up in the pool rooms i bum out at.

I'm 30 minutes from S brunswick, and every year no one knows the dates, details, etc around here. Yes, we're all idiots and don't know how to search, but some people need it flashed in their faces for 10 hours to remember something.

NYC cue dude
03-24-2007, 06:25 AM
Is there a website or futher info for this? Seyberts.com doesn't seem to show anything for 2007. I want to book tickets, and perhaps play a qualifier, or just play an amatuer tourny there.



Dragon promotions should have info on it's website.

The dates are July 8th through the 14th. Play begins on the 9th, and yes it does end on a saturday.

Unfortunately, this year there will be no amatuer event.

rg

dmgwalsh
03-24-2007, 08:08 AM
Dragon promotions should have info on it's website.

The dates are July 8th through the 14th. Play begins on the 9th, and yes it does end on a saturday.

Unfortunately, this year there will be no amatuer event.

rg

No info as to any qualifiers yet. Any idea when they will be held? Where in Chicago? (I've already emailed Dragon and asked)

Are the top 16 of last year invited? Any confirmations? Will the field be 64?

I wonder if any more of the good Filipino players like Manolo, Reyes will come this time. Any other old timers like West, Rempe?

Anyway, thanks for the wonderful event. I've been watching and rewatching the videos the last few weeks. Thomas Engert is very smooth and I hope to see more of his 14.1 game.

NYC cue dude
03-24-2007, 09:54 AM
No info as to any qualifiers yet. Any idea when they will be held? Where in Chicago? (I've already emailed Dragon and asked)

Are the top 16 of last year invited? Any confirmations? Will the field be 64?

I wonder if any more of the good Filipino players like Manolo, Reyes will come this time. Any other old timers like West, Rempe?

Anyway, thanks for the wonderful event. I've been watching and rewatching the videos the last few weeks. Thomas Engert is very smooth and I hope to see more of his 14.1 game.


There is no info yet on the qualifiers, because the dates haven't been confirmed with individual room owners. As soon as they are, they will be announced. This year there will be 2 additional qualifiers. Texas and california.

Top 16 finishers are automatically reinvited. The field is limited to 64. With 4 mores spots being filled by the extra qualifiers (18 spots in total), that leaves only 30 spots to be distributed world wide.

I forgot the exact number, but there needs to be a certain amount of international players present for the event to be sanctioned by the wpa to be a legitimate World Championship.

We invited all the old timers last year, and a lot of philipine greats. Not sure what will happen this year, as I am not in charge of inviting players, but I sure would love to see ALL the best players compete.

Thomas engert has one of the most ELEGANT straight pool games I have ever seen, although I havent had the opportunity to revist all those matches since they were actually played.

rg

Note to self = get those dvd's and watch them, often!

justnum
03-24-2007, 10:20 AM
It is so much work just to find where those dvds are on sale. I went to Amsterdam and couldnt find any of the dvds for sale.

I also think I Blatt Billiards doesnt have them for sale either. Im not big on shopping on the internet and the places I goto for billiards gear doesnt sell them.

So what dvds is nyc cue dude talking about? I know they exist but where are they for sale.

Im sorry for not seeing the obivous connections but it would help had someone been more explicit.

dmgwalsh
03-24-2007, 11:09 AM
It is so much work just to find where those dvds are on sale. I went to Amsterdam and couldnt find any of the dvds for sale.

I also think I Blatt Billiards doesnt have them for sale either. Im not big on shopping on the internet and the places I goto for billiards gear doesnt sell them.

So what dvds is nyc cue dude talking about? I know they exist but where are they for sale.

Im sorry for not seeing the obivous connections but it would help had someone been more explicit.

http://www.seyberts.com/instructional/videos/14.1/index.htm

I bought them at all pro for about $35 more than Seyberts is charging. This is a great deal at Seyberts. Free shipping, too.

Engert, Immonen, Hohman, Robles, Salvas, Otterman, Hopkins, Ouschan, Williams, Hunter, Schmidt, Eberle, Goldwater, Lee, Archer, Harriman. 5 dvds 10 matches. Commentary on some not all.

Watch and let's discuss.

justnum
03-24-2007, 11:16 AM
http://www.seyberts.com/instructional/videos/14.1/index.htm

I bought them at all pro for about $35 more than Seyberts is charging. This is a great deal at Seyberts. Free shipping, too.

Engert, Immonen, Hohman, Robles, Salvas, Otterman, Hopkins, Ouschan, Williams, Hunter, Schmidt, Eberle, Goldwater, Lee, Archer, Harriman. 5 dvds 10 matches. Commentary on some not all.

Watch and let's discuss.

Thanks for signing their death warrant. :)

NYC cue dude
03-24-2007, 03:42 PM
It is so much work just to find where those dvds are on sale. I went to Amsterdam and couldnt find any of the dvds for sale.

I also think I Blatt Billiards doesnt have them for sale either. Im not big on shopping on the internet and the places I goto for billiards gear doesnt sell them.

So what dvds is nyc cue dude talking about? I know they exist but where are they for sale.

Im sorry for not seeing the obivous connections but it would help had someone been more explicit.

i'm not sure what all the confusion is all about.

The dvd's are being offered by dragon promotions and a select few distributers. It's not like this is a major blockbuster Disney's release.

I recall Charlie Williams posting a few times in separate threads on the main forum about the release and it's availability.

What "connection" do you think you are missing? I'd be glad to answer any question, but yo will have to be more explicit.

rg

Blackjack
03-24-2007, 08:02 PM
i'm not sure what all the confusion is all about.

The dvd's are being offered by dragon promotions and a select few distributers. It's not like this is a major blockbuster Disney's release.

I recall Charlie Williams posting a few times in separate threads on the main forum about the release and it's availability.

What "connection" do you think you are missing? I'd be glad to answer any question, but yo will have to be more explicit.

rg

This post is about the dvd project for THIS YEAR.
I just spoke to Charlie Williams on the phone. I asked if they would be making dvd's of the event this year and he said it was not likely. If we could get some interest in the dvd project - I would be more than happy to help out in any way that I can ( I told Charlie that also). It doesn't have to be anything fancy with the filming - I would be more than happy to do the commentary in post production and assist in burning the dvd's. I know of several people that have the ability to burn the dvd's - some post on this fourm. The main issue with Charlie is that there was money spent last year and the sales did not justify the production values. If anybody else is interested in putting this together, I would be more than happy to twist Charlie's arm to make it happen (or to at least get his permission to do it). I have no camera equipment, but I do have editing software capabilities and the motivation to do this. If anyone is intersted, give me a call at 915-496-5763. If I go, I will probably be staying in Kearny and I would need a ride every day (unless someone needs a roomate at the hotel to split their costs).

NYC cue dude
03-25-2007, 05:29 AM
This post is about the dvd project for THIS YEAR.
I just spoke to Charlie Williams on the phone. I asked if they would be making dvd's of the event this year and he said it was not likely. If we could get some interest in the dvd project - I would be more than happy to help out in any way that I can ( I told Charlie that also). It doesn't have to be anything fancy with the filming - I would be more than happy to do the commentary in post production and assist in burning the dvd's. I know of several people that have the ability to burn the dvd's - some post on this fourm. The main issue with Charlie is that there was money spent last year and the sales did not justify the production values. If anybody else is interested in putting this together, I would be more than happy to twist Charlie's arm to make it happen (or to at least get his permission to do it). I have no camera equipment, but I do have editing software capabilities and the motivation to do this. If anyone is intersted, give me a call at 915-496-5763. If I go, I will probably be staying in Kearny and I would need a ride every day (unless someone needs a roomate at the hotel to split their costs).

The biggest problem with filming was the costs. We agreed on a price with a film team who was also going to edit and produce the dvd's Around every corner we encountered knew "difficulty's" the kept the increasing the final costs. In the end, the amount of money spent creating the dvd's almost sank the entire tournament.

Very nice offer David. The concern we have is that the end product has to be atleast somewhat professional. I wouldn't be comfortable with someone taping this on a simple camera and then burning copies from the masters. Afterall, my name (and dragon promotions) is on the end product.

Of course, in the end, I'd listen to any suggestions.

rg

dmgwalsh
03-25-2007, 05:40 AM
I'm sorry to hear the dvds didn't sell enough to support another go around.

Watching good 14.1 on video is so enjoyable.

Is it out of the question to have Accustats do it?

Is anybody making money in video these days?

By the way, someone announced a qualifier in Maryland. Any word on the other Qualifiers?(I emailed Dragon twice about it already)

Blackjack
03-26-2007, 08:38 AM
Dennis

When I spoke to Charlie I asked him if he was planning on having Accu-stats tape this event and he said that it was not in the plans. Randy's post is in line with what Charlie said to me on Saturday.

Randy
We would need 3 cameras - and I am experienced in editing/post production. John's video in his garage has sold many copies - and in John's own words he was "just a guy in a garage with a video camera."

The fans want to see the matches and they also want good commentary to go along with the matches. Many years ago professional wrestling had the largest bootleg tape market in the world. These were tapes that were hard to get from what were known as outlaw shows. These tapes were not well produced at all - mostly guys shooting it with a video camera under their arm. The point I am making is that those bootleg tapes made more money than some of Vince McMahon's well produced TV shows. It showed that the fans just wanted to see good action without all of the fluff that comes attached with high production costs.

I would be more than comfortable in saying that you can have it professionally taped for less than you think. I am willing to help out with the directing and commentary - free of charge. I am slo confident that we can get some volunteer camera people as well - probably from this forum. Where there is a will there is a way. As I said to Charlie, there is more of a market for this than your last year's sales indicate. Many people (including myself) did not know where to buy the dvd's from last year's event. I believe that you can get many copies of this years event pre-ordered via the internet forums and make up production costs before the first match is recorded. Let me know.

dmgwalsh
03-26-2007, 09:03 AM
Dennis

When I spoke to Charlie I asked him if he was planning on having Accu-stats tape this event and he said that it was not in the plans. Randy's post is in line with what Charlie said to me on Saturday.

Randy
We would need 3 cameras - and I am experienced in editing/post production. John's video in his garage has sold many copies - and in John's own words he was "just a guy in a garage with a video camera."

The fans want to see the matches and they also want good commentary to go along with the matches. Many years ago professional wrestling had the largest bootleg tape market in the world. These were tapes that were hard to get from what were known as outlaw shows. These tapes were not well produced at all - mostly guys shooting it with a video camera under their arm. The point I am making is that those bootleg tapes made more money than some of Vince McMahon's well produced TV shows. It showed that the fans just wanted to see good action without all of the fluff that comes attached with high production costs.

I would be more than comfortable in saying that you can have it professionally taped for less than you think. I am willing to help out with the directing and commentary - free of charge. I am slo confident that we can get some volunteer camera people as well - probably from this forum. Where there is a will there is a way. As I said to Charlie, there is more of a market for this than your last year's sales indicate. Many people (including myself) did not know where to buy the dvd's from last year's event. I believe that you can get many copies of this years event pre-ordered via the internet forums and make up production costs before the first match is recorded. Let me know.
Blackjack: that would be great if you could put this together.

In case you guys didn't know, there are a few bootleg tapes from the tournament floating around.

I think Michel Felder taped some if not all of them, no commentary, and they became available on the internet. Some are better than others, having to do with where they were able to put a camcorder without interfering with play.

Some of those matches are as follows:

Hohmann/Ouschan; Garcia/Immonen; Hohmann/Deska; Felder/Maidhoff; Felder/Immonen; Davis/Ortmann.

If I am able to make it out there, I would help with some of the filming.

Blackjack
03-26-2007, 09:29 AM
Blackjack: that would be great if you could put this together.

In case you guys didn't know, there are a few bootleg tapes from the tournament floating around.

I think Michel Felder taped some if not all of them, no commentary, and they became available on the internet. Some are better than others, having to do with where they were able to put a camcorder without interfering with play.

Some of those matches are as follows:

Hohmann/Ouschan; Garcia/Immonen; Hohmann/Deska; Felder/Maidhoff; Felder/Immonen; Davis/Ortmann.

If I am able to make it out there, I would help with some of the filming.

This is coming together nicely...

Director - Me - Cost - Free
Editing - Me - Cost - Lunch, a bag of peanuts, and a Mountain Dew
Camera 1 - Dennis - Cost - free pass for the entire event
Commentary - Williebetmore and Breakup - Cost - Priceless:p

I think the most important part of the dvd's is the commentary. We have many players in this forum that are extremely gifted in teaching about the game of straight pool. One of them is Lou Figueroa - another is Bob Jewett - another is SJM. Sometimes no commentary at all is better than poor commentary - or you can take care of the problem by planning and strategizing with who you will have add commentary to a certain match.

There is a large market for 14.1 material, Randy - especially in Europe and in Asia. James, Charlie, and Cindy already know that. You can expand your marketbase for the dvd's by adding comentary in Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean quite easily. I have done that with my books - hired a college student in search of spending money to translate the material. The most I have ever paid for that was $300.

NYC cue dude
03-26-2007, 12:47 PM
I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

selftaut
03-26-2007, 01:06 PM
As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.




rg

With the previous comment you made about not having it filmed again in the next event , and along with this comment above , I am dissapointed that you seem to not want Blackjack and others to step up and do what they are suggesting, if they did I would be the first in line to buy the DVD's. I think they would do a tremendous job with what resources they have.

Blackjack
03-26-2007, 07:26 PM
I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

Randy,
Okay, I understand that there is no data on whether the dvd's sold or not because there was a delay with them hitting the marketplace - and the time between they were released and 'right now" does not factor into what DP and Randy Goldwater should do in 2007. The 2006 dvd's have only been out for 2 months, and there is not enough time to evaluate their success between now and July. You're a better businessman than I, you know that you cannot make a decision for this year based upon what happened last year. There were some snags, it is understandable. However, think about this: why not do it right this year?

Right now you are hearing and reading that there is a market for this product. You are also having people step up to the plate to ensure that costs are kept reasonable - I have offered to edit the video and sound and produce the dvd's for you. I can assure you that finished product will be professional or I would not offer my services to you or to Charlie at all. Everything will be done to your standards. You will have full distribution rights to the finished product. All I asked for in return was a bag of peanuts and a Mountain Dew. :confused:

IMO, if you do the DVD's right this year, Michael and others won't have to resort to marketing or distributing bootleg recordings, but you're giving Michael and others no choice but to resort to that, so why chastise him for doing so? With a demand for the product and your attitude towards making dvd's available for those unable to attend the event, the status of the 2006 14.1 World Championships dvd's is completely understandable. My offer still stands, let me know. If the answer is "no" I guess I will have to start my own tournament and do the dvd's that way? :confused:

StraightPoolIU
03-27-2007, 06:04 AM
If this event ends up not being recorded for posterity as well as the entertainment of current 14.1 fans it will truely be a travesty. Great 14.1 tournaments are held so seldomly that we who are fans of the game relish every opprotunity to see professionals play the game at its highest level. Personally I would love to go to the tournament and see it in person, but I am not financially able to do so nor can I get time off from work. But can I drop 25-30 bucks on a dvd? You bet. Also, I think it's important from a historical perspective. We have almost no visual proof of the golden age of pool, but it is equally as sad how little pool is a available on visual media in this day and age as well. Personally, I think Accu-Stat does a fantastic job and would be perfect for this tournament, but there must be things at work that I do not understand that make that an impossibility. In any case I hope some sort of deal gets worked out with someone.

dmgwalsh
03-27-2007, 08:00 AM
I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if it wa sworth it or not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......rg

While I would love to see vids of the game, I certainly do not want to second guess one of the men that has made this great event possible. If for whatever reason he does not want this event filmed, I say we respect his wishes and let the issue die so he can devote some of his energy to promoting the event rather than defending every detail of his business plan to strangers on the internet.

As for Felder, I assumed he had taped because he was in some of the tapes and someone had said that he taped himself in an earlier European event so I just assumed it was him. I should not have assumed and I apologize to him for any problem my assumption might have caused.:o

NYC cue dude
03-27-2007, 08:19 AM
While I would love to see vids of the game, I certainly do not want to second guess one of the men that has made this great event possible. If for whatever reason he does not want this event filmed, I say we respect his wishes and let the issue die so he can devote some of his energy to promoting the event rather than defending every detail of his business plan to strangers on the internet.

As for Felder, I assumed he had taped because he was in some of the tapes and someone had said that he taped himself in an earlier European event so I just assumed it was him. I should not have assumed and I apologize to him for any problem my assumption might have caused.:o

I truly do appreciate the offers by some of you on getting involved, expending time, energy and perhaps money to help film this event. I hope no one misunderstands my gratitude.

When I said that I would "listen" to any proposals, I wasn't exactly clear. If anyone wants to participate, they should create a "detailed" plan and then email me the proposal. Suggesting ideas, one post at a time isn't helpful. Once the personel agree, the equipment is chosen, and the other necessary details are decided, then I will review the results.

One thing that no one realizes is that as much as we would like to think there is a demand for these videos, sadly it isnt the case. I conservatively put the number of interested purchasers in the hundreds, not the thousands. It is a VERY SMALL market.

Few of you know this, but there is no profit in this event for me. Any money that I have given has been a donation, with NO expectation for return. The ONLY business plan I have ever tried to initiate with this event is to have it some time in the near future be SELF SUSTAINING. Creating bigger expenses for this event is counter productive and jeapordizes the potential longevity of this event.

rg

Kevin
03-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Personally, I think Accu-Stat does a fantastic job and would be perfect for this tournament, but there must be things at work that I do not understand that make that an impossibility.

You may wish to chat directly with Pat Fleming about this, he answers the phone. I recall Grady Mathews mentioning that Pat's costs for covering an event have risen over the years, and must be more selective and turns down some requests for event coverage, or perhaps even asks for money up front to cover himself, a not totally unreasonable request given that it is "promotion" for the event.

It is not hard to guess at some of these costs. Lighting, 3 cameras, 3 camera people, editing director, perhaps a gofer, trailer plus gas to get all his equipment there, hotel rooms for several days, possibly airfare for his commentators, food, salary, probably insurance to cover himself should equipment be lost due to accident or theft, etc. These things could easily run up the bill to , uhm, near $10,000 for a weekend just to pull a number from my hat. Plus the costs of post production, media (tapes or DVD's) mailing catalogs, etc. would mean he may need to expect to sell perhaps at least 500 tapes quickly just to cover his costs, let alone profit which is necessary for his business to survive and keep on paying the mortgage and feeding his family. Randy just mentioned the market, despite our local fanatical interest, is very limited, I count maybe 40 regulars to the straight pool section of AZBilliards, the "best pool website on the planet". Not to mention the prospect of digital piracy of product killing future sales.

The real answer here may be, if Accu-stats has gotten too expensive, is there room for a competitor to get into the action and provide similar coverage and exposure, but at a lower price point? And, are you (Blackjack, others) the entrepreneur that is willing to start and run that business to challenge Pat's monopoly on the pool market?

One way to do it on the cheap would be to take up Randy's challenge, do the event your way, with this promise: we do it on spec, film, edit, etc. then show you the result, and if you don't like it we promise to can the result and it will never ever be released to the public so your "production values" will be upheld. But give us the chance to try first on the cheap. Nobody loses that way, but there is a chance for it to work out.

NYC cue dude
03-27-2007, 04:14 PM
My understanding is that Accustats wanted to OWN a large percentage of the tournament itself (including the name "World Straight Pool Championships)!!!!! Very unreasonable imo.

Obviously we spoke with them about this last year.

And without letting out too much information, the dvd filming and production last year escalated into the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars. You do the math......

rg

mthornto
03-27-2007, 07:45 PM
And without letting out too much information, the dvd filming and production last year escalated into the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars. You do the math......

rg

I am ashamed to say that I have not purchased last year's DVDs yet. I have been meaning to, just not gotten to it. I will get this done this week.


Randy, you mentioned that you are not pleased that somebody filmed some matches and posted them on the internet. I can understand your frustration with this since you were trying to have matches professionally filmed and released. However, spectators with video cameras are becoming quite common. For example, cameras were all over the place at Derby City this year.

If the Straight Pool Championships are not professional filmed this year, are you still against allowing spectators to film matches? I am talking about guys sitting in the stands with a camera in their hand, not fans filming with the intent to produce and sell.

Steve Lipsky
03-27-2007, 08:05 PM
The staff at this event was pretty adamant about not letting spectators do this. For the life of me, I have no idea how they didn't catch someone filming entire matches with a tripod. To be honest, I played Michael Felder twice, and I kind of remember him taping at least one of the matches. I can't be sure about that though.

I will say that Mr. Felder is a super-nice guy and probably didn't know about the rule. It's the only explanation I can think of.

- Steve

TheOne
03-28-2007, 03:15 AM
The staff at this event was pretty adamant about not letting spectators do this. For the life of me, I have no idea how they didn't catch someone filming entire matches with a tripod. To be honest, I played Michael Felder twice, and I kind of remember him taping at least one of the matches. I can't be sure about that though.

I will say that Mr. Felder is a super-nice guy and probably didn't know about the rule. It's the only explanation I can think of.

- Steve

I don't remember every detail from last year but I do recall wanting to record some matches I played in for my own memories. I felt fortunate to be playing in the event and as one of the lesser names knew I wouldn't get a "TV" game. Sadly the schedule was so tough I didn't get chance to record anything but I don't recall thinking I wasn't allowed but I could be wrong? :confused:

I feel even more proud to have done enough to be invited back this year and if no filming is to take place it would be a shame if players weren't allowed to film a few matches for their personal use.

That being said I think we all should respect Randy and DP decision because they are already putting this show on for little or zero reward, the last thing we should do is add to their headaches. I'd rather have a world 14.1 event with no filming than nothing at all...

lfigueroa
03-28-2007, 05:50 AM
This is coming together nicely...

Director - Me - Cost - Free
Editing - Me - Cost - Lunch, a bag of peanuts, and a Mountain Dew
Camera 1 - Dennis - Cost - free pass for the entire event
Commentary - Williebetmore and Breakup - Cost - Priceless:p

I think the most important part of the dvd's is the commentary. We have many players in this forum that are extremely gifted in teaching about the game of straight pool. One of them is Lou Figueroa - another is Bob Jewett - another is SJM. Sometimes no commentary at all is better than poor commentary - or you can take care of the problem by planning and strategizing with who you will have add commentary to a certain match.

There is a large market for 14.1 material, Randy - especially in Europe and in Asia. James, Charlie, and Cindy already know that. You can expand your marketbase for the dvd's by adding comentary in Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean quite easily. I have done that with my books - hired a college student in search of spending money to translate the material. The most I have ever paid for that was $300.


Blackjack, thanks for the compliment. I'm hoping to make it to NJ for this year's event, but have a few things up in the air that prevent me from a final call right now. But if I can make it, I'd be happy to help.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
03-28-2007, 05:56 AM
I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

I don't get this. Certainly, if you're hiring a crew to do this, I understand that no one else should be allowed to tape. BUT, if no one is going to produce "official" taped coverage, then you should allow the amateurs to take a stab at it.

I don't know about everyone else, but I loved John Schmidt's home produced 14.1 DVD, with his commentary. I even liked the Fejien run w/o commentary and thought it was great just with ambient sound and when they panned to show you the rest of the room.

Just think how grateful we'd all be if they'd had amateur video of Johnston City or during Mosconi and Greenleaf's time...

Lou Figueroa

Williebetmore
03-28-2007, 06:35 AM
.....That being said I think we all should respect Randy and DP decision because they are already putting this show on for little or zero reward, the last thing we should do is add to their headaches. I'd rather have a world 14.1 event with no filming than nothing at all...

TheSingle,
Well said. I will say, though, that any footage of any quality would be welcomed by the 14.1 fanatics. I also think that such footage would not in any way diminish the quality of the event, nor add to the debt burden of the organizers.

Even a "home movie" of the event would be a public service to the rather small 14.1 community. I certainly agree with RG that the market for any type of video is very small; but if it can be done at no cost to the organizers, and if the organizers would share in any profits; I fail to see any downside.

In addition, I desperately would like to see all major 14.1 events documented on film/tape/digital media. No footage exists (to my knowledge) of Caras, Crane, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Ponzi in their prime. When the future arguments about "who was better, Mosconi or Riley?" begin; I would like to have some visual proof.

TheOne
03-28-2007, 07:59 AM
TheSingle,
Well said. I will say, though, that any footage of any quality would be welcomed by the 14.1 fanatics. I also think that such footage would not in any way diminish the quality of the event, nor add to the debt burden of the organizers.

Even a "home movie" of the event would be a public service to the rather small 14.1 community. I certainly agree with RG that the market for any type of video is very small; but if it can be done at no cost to the organizers, and if the organizers would share in any profits; I fail to see any downside.

In addition, I desperately would like to see all major 14.1 events documented on film/tape/digital media. No footage exists (to my knowledge) of Caras, Crane, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Ponzi in their prime. When the future arguments about "who was better, Mosconi or Riley?" begin; I would like to have some visual proof.

Haha I better get in quick before I mocked to death lol!

As a photo/video fanatic I really don't like the idea of these events not being documented for the future. Hopefully something can happen which won't cause too many headaches.

You going to get parole from the trouble and strife(wife) this year Willie?

Williebetmore
03-28-2007, 08:07 AM
Haha I better get in quick before I mocked to death lol!

As a photo/video fanatic I really don't like the idea of these events not being documented for the future. Hopefully something can happen which won't cause too many headaches.

You going to get parole from the trouble and strife(wife) this year Willie?

TheThirteenthofaBaker'sDozen,
I'm still hoping I can attend. It looks like I may get dragged to Las Vegas in May for a pool-related event; which would make my attendance in July somewhat less likely. We'll see. Good luck in the event.

VKJ
03-30-2007, 09:37 AM
To those putting on this great event:

First off, a big thank you for doing it! I was at last years event and loved it. Long live 14.1!
One request, please set up some type of score keeping so the audience not only can see it but so we also know how many balls a player is running.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

Njhustler1
04-02-2007, 06:56 AM
I have not attended...yet. So I'm curious how they keep score now. I agree some system where the spectators could see the score too would be wonderful.

But in regards to the players, how is the match tracked? Do they use dials on the rails? Do they use beads? Is there an official scorekeeper sitting by the table writing it down?

Steve Lipsky
04-02-2007, 07:57 AM
I have not attended...yet. So I'm curious how they keep score now. I agree some system where the spectators could see the score too would be wonderful.

But in regards to the players, how is the match tracked? Do they use dials on the rails? Do they use beads? Is there an official scorekeeper sitting by the table writing it down?

NJ,

The scoring was a mess. And it had nothing to do with the tournament officials. This was going to happen no matter what, as it became evident early in the round-robin format that the Europeans just keep score "differently". ("Differently" meaning insanely.)

All kidding aside, since the score was being done on paper (in addition to the rolodex-type sheets for the fans), the players had to write their scores down themselves. When there was a miss or a safe in the middle of a rack, I swear I am not kidding, the Europeans would write down how many balls were left on the table, not how many they made. Of course, they never told us this, and in some cases the language barrier made it difficult to get to the root of the problem.

Additionally, if they missed in the middle of a rack, they would also update their TOTAL score right after the miss. This might be the way it is done with a referee, but not without one. I never knew when they were updating their total scores with their rack scores.

It was really kind of crazy. Any European 14.1 players out there, can you let me know if this is indeed how the game is scored overseas? Or was I just unlucky with who I played? ;)

- Steve

Nostroke
04-02-2007, 09:01 AM
TheSingle,
Well said. I will say, though, that any footage of any quality would be welcomed by the 14.1 fanatics. I also think that such footage would not in any way diminish the quality of the event, nor add to the debt burden of the organizers.

Even a "home movie" of the event would be a public service to the rather small 14.1 community. I certainly agree with RG that the market for any type of video is very small; but if it can be done at no cost to the organizers, and if the organizers would share in any profits; I fail to see any downside.

In addition, I desperately would like to see all major 14.1 events documented on film/tape/digital media. No footage exists (to my knowledge) of Caras, Crane, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Ponzi in their prime. When the future arguments about "who was better, Mosconi or Riley?" begin; I would like to have some visual proof.

I say invite Jorge Torres from Pro Pool Video and let him do the last 4. If someone wants to buy the rights later and add commentary and sell DVD's , fine, but otherwise we will at least have them on the web to view.

TheOne
04-02-2007, 10:20 AM
NJ,

The scoring was a mess. And it had nothing to do with the tournament officials. This was going to happen no matter what, as it became evident early in the round-robin format that the Europeans just keep score "differently". ("Differently" meaning insanely.)

All kidding aside, since the score was being done on paper (in addition to the rolodex-type sheets for the fans), the players had to write their scores down themselves. When there was a miss or a safe in the middle of a rack, I swear I am not kidding, the Europeans would write down how many balls were left on the table, not how many they made. Of course, they never told us this, and in some cases the language barrier made it difficult to get to the root of the problem.

Additionally, if they missed in the middle of a rack, they would also update their TOTAL score right after the miss. This might be the way it is done with a referee, but not without one. I never knew when they were updating their total scores with their rack scores.

It was really kind of crazy. Any European 14.1 players out there, can you let me know if this is indeed how the game is scored overseas? Or was I just unlucky with who I played? ;)

- Steve

I think u was unlucky! ;)

mjantti
04-03-2007, 05:57 PM
NJ,

The scoring was a mess. And it had nothing to do with the tournament officials. This was going to happen no matter what, as it became evident early in the round-robin format that the Europeans just keep score "differently". ("Differently" meaning insanely.)

All kidding aside, since the score was being done on paper (in addition to the rolodex-type sheets for the fans), the players had to write their scores down themselves. When there was a miss or a safe in the middle of a rack, I swear I am not kidding, the Europeans would write down how many balls were left on the table, not how many they made. Of course, they never told us this, and in some cases the language barrier made it difficult to get to the root of the problem.

Additionally, if they missed in the middle of a rack, they would also update their TOTAL score right after the miss. This might be the way it is done with a referee, but not without one. I never knew when they were updating their total scores with their rack scores.

It was really kind of crazy. Any European 14.1 players out there, can you let me know if this is indeed how the game is scored overseas? Or was I just unlucky with who I played? ;)

- Steve

Hey Steve !

Hmm, you mean that you keep the score by counting the balls made like 1, 2, 3, 4, .... for yourself or for your opponent ? Is that the way to do it outside Europe, in America for instance ? Counting ball by ball seems way to tedious to me (or my opponent) and I'd say it's easy to make a mistake. Both with referee and without a referee. I don't see a reason why my opponent would need to count balls one by one when I'm at the table when there's a much easier solution to that how to keep score without the constant need of attention. Errors are bound to happen with ball-by-ball counting especially if you make a couple of balls from the break and the counter misses them completely.

In Europe we always mark the paper or the table counter with three different figures: table, score for player 1 and score for player 2. "Table" contains the amount of balls when a new inning starts, let's say there are 10 balls at the table when player 1 comes in. You put "10" on "table" which says there were 10 balls when player 1 inning started. After that you don't need to count any balls, just count the balls when player 1's inning is over. If player 1 runs more than 9 balls on this specific occasion, table figure is added 14 everytime 14 balls are added to the table ie. the rack is made. So the "table" would say 24 after the first rack. This is easy enough that the shooter can do it between racks. And after the inning is over, lets say player 1 misses at 4th rack with 7 balls remaining, his score would be the table (10+14+14+14 = 52) minus the 7 balls remaining = 45.

If I'd be in a match without a referee and my opponent would ask me to count the balls one by one, I'd tell him he must be joking. Why count ball by ball when you can do the counting with simple addition/deduction math ? Why would I trust my opponent's counting ?

Sorry that I sound so negative here, but I must miss something here or is it really that way, that straight pool is played somewhere with the opponent/shooter counting the balls one by one ? I know in the good ol' days the table referee would announce the run after each shot. I'm probably as stunned as Steve here :confused: :eek:

Btw, Michael Felder is a really funny and approachable guy! :cool: Talked with him many times at the EPC and we were instantly cracking jokes ! :)

marknyc
04-03-2007, 06:37 PM
I remember sitting tableside for the match between Danny Harriman and Ralf Souquet. Danny and Ralf definitely had an interesting conversation on what the proper method of score keeping was supposed to be.

I think Danny's comments were to the effect of, "Well, that may be the way YOU do it, but..."

Steve Lipsky
04-04-2007, 07:00 AM
Hey Steve !

Hmm, you mean that you keep the score by counting the balls made like 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

Hey Mr. Jantti! No, I surely didn't mean counting ball by ball... that would be tedious as hell.

In Europe we always mark the paper or the table counter with three different figures: table, score for player 1 and score for player 2. "Table" contains the amount of balls when a new inning starts, let's say there are 10 balls at the table when player 1 comes in. You put "10" on "table" which says there were 10 balls when player 1 inning started. After that you don't need to count any balls, just count the balls when player 1's inning is over. If player 1 runs more than 9 balls on this specific occasion, table figure is added 14 everytime 14 balls are added to the table ie. the rack is made. So the "table" would say 24 after the first rack. This is easy enough that the shooter can do it between racks. And after the inning is over, lets say player 1 misses at 4th rack with 7 balls remaining, his score would be the table (10+14+14+14 = 52) minus the 7 balls remaining = 45.


See Craig Riley, I wasn't unlucky! Europeans really are insane! :p

Mikko, I really do mean this in a lighthearted way, but isn't your way more confusing than just simply counting the balls you've made? Not one by one, but by looking at the table and seeing how many aren't there anymore.

The American way of counting would be: let's say I miss with the same 10 balls on the table as in your example. That means I've made 5, so I put 5 on my rack score. If you finish the rack, you put 9 on your rack score and then together we add these to our total scores, resetting the rack scores to 0. Total scores are always updated only at the end of a rack, never in the middle (except to deduct points for fouls).

How can the European method be used when you are using either beads or the table counters? I can see it working on paper, but that's about it.

Btw, thank you for vindicating me! Hopefully people on the board can now see why the scoring was a mess, lol. Americans had never seen another method, and I'm sure neither had the Europeans. They both just assumed everyone was using the same method, and with a language barrier, it was really crazy.

I also just realized the European method counts the break ball as a ball in the previous rack. Americans count it as a ball in the current rack. In Mikko's example above, he says if there are 10 balls left on the table and a player goes on a run, he gets credited with all 10 from that first rack. In America, he'd only get credited with 9. Jeez, now that I'm thinking of it, what would happen if you gave him credit for all 10 and then he misses the break ball? This is very confusing. :eek:

- Steve

TheOne
04-04-2007, 03:05 PM
Hey Mr. Jantti! No, I surely didn't mean counting ball by ball... that would be tedious as hell.



See Craig Riley, I wasn't unlucky! Europeans really are insane! :p



hehe u was unlucky that u didnt play me, Im just a 14.1 virgin but I like your way. From what I remember that's how I scored it but then I never got the "European way" drilled into me as I'd never played it before in Europe.

One things for sure, life sure would be easy if we had refs to score. The scoring DEFINATELY affected players performance.

mjantti
04-04-2007, 05:01 PM
The American way of counting would be: let's say I miss with the same 10 balls on the table as in your example. That means I've made 5, so I put 5 on my rack score. If you finish the rack, you put 9 on your rack score and then together we add these to our total scores, resetting the rack scores to 0. Total scores are always updated only at the end of a rack, never in the middle (except to deduct points for fouls).

How can the European method be used when you are using either beads or the table counters? I can see it working on paper, but that's about it.

Btw, thank you for vindicating me! Hopefully people on the board can now see why the scoring was a mess, lol. Americans had never seen another method, and I'm sure neither had the Europeans. They both just assumed everyone was using the same method, and with a language barrier, it was really crazy.

I also just realized the European method counts the break ball as a ball in the previous rack. Americans count it as a ball in the current rack. In Mikko's example above, he says if there are 10 balls left on the table and a player goes on a run, he gets credited with all 10 from that first rack. In America, he'd only get credited with 9. Jeez, now that I'm thinking of it, what would happen if you gave him credit for all 10 and then he misses the break ball? This is very confusing. :eek:

- Steve

Steve, I get you. As much as I can with my insane mind... :) But as Europeans are used to running dozens of racks all the time (ahem), you don't need to update the score, just add 14 to the "table". I admit it's not good for the audience because we update the score only after the inning is over. The good part is that you know your current run all the time. Tell me how you tell if player has run like 10 racks and then misses, what was his total run ? You have to remember what was the score when he started his inning ? With table counters the European system always tells everything, the run and the score can be easily calculated.

If there is 10 balls on the table, when the player reaches the break ball, the table now says 24 and if he misses the break ball, his run in 24 (table) -15 (balls on the table) = 9. See ? ;) Don't fight the system, just adapt... :D

justnum
04-04-2007, 05:14 PM
For a nominal fee a hired mathematician can apply the techniques and proven methods of counting to solve your dilemma.

The problem does seem more in the communication barrier. With an explicit method detailing how to keep score it will eliminate communication issues because the idea will be so natural.

As foundational as counting is it does have inherent problems when used imprecisely.

justnum
04-04-2007, 05:51 PM
Come on people this is my stock in trade. I also have straight pool league experience and understand the difficulties in the American counting system.

Bob Jewett
04-04-2007, 05:54 PM
Hey Mr. Jantti! No, I surely didn't mean counting ball by ball... that would be tedious as hell....
That's why the referees are paid the big bucks. I did a week of "seven ball ... 82 .... fifteen ball ... 83 ... three ball ... 84 ... Mr. Balsis on a run of 84 (as I racked)." 24 matches in eight days.

Bill O
04-04-2007, 08:06 PM
That's why the referees are paid the big bucks. I did a week of "seven ball ... 82 .... fifteen ball ... 83 ... three ball ... 84 ... Mr. Balsis on a run of 84 (as I racked)." 24 matches in eight days.

That cadence is music to my ears, brings back memories of tournaments back in the day. Come to think of it I don't remember hearing the balls called out at Roseland or Amsterdamn when 14.1 tournaments were held there.

Steve Lipsky
04-05-2007, 06:49 AM
The good part is that you know your current run all the time. Tell me how you tell if player has run like 10 racks and then misses, what was his total run? You have to remember what was the score when he started his inning?

Hey Mikko. This is a totally valid point. With standard counters, the American system is difficult to tally your total run. But a lot of 14.1 in America is scored with overhead beads, which makes it easy. You can put a little space between the beads at the start of your new inning. When your inning ends, you push them all flush (except for your current rack score, which must remain separated until the end of the rack so your opponent can properly score his run).

- Steve

TheOne
04-05-2007, 07:14 AM
Hey Mikko. This is a totally valid point. With standard counters, the American system is difficult to tally your total run. But a lot of 14.1 in America is scored with overhead beads, which makes it easy. You can put a little space between the beads at the start of your new inning. When your inning ends, you push them all flush (except for your current rack score, which must remain separated until the end of the rack so your opponent can properly score his run).

- Steve

Come on Steve, you'll be telling me a Billion is a thousand million next! :rolleyes:

Vahmurka
04-05-2007, 10:59 AM
European method of counting is reliable and easy once you get it. What sounds a bit confusing to me, Mikko, is that you mention "table total" being 24 etc. On our papers we write down the number of balls which are on the table - either when a player's inning ends or when the balls are re-reacked. Apparently this number never exceeds 15! 15 comes with every re-rack actually. Then you count the balls after an inning (let's say 10 remained, that is 5 for player A). Player B clears 9, one remaining as a break ball. We right down that 9, "table"=15 again (look that break ball being counted as belonging to next rack!), then his run continues, he runs 14, we add that to player B total (no wonder Europeans update their scores after each inning), table=15, he runs 10 and plays safe. Table=5 prior to player A visit to the table, his total is still 5, player B total is 35 (9+14+10). If you see 15,15,15 followed by a player's total being updated that means he was on the run. If it is interrupted by his opponent's total being updated (even if unchanged) that means the run ended there (=safety battle ;))

When at home I will make a screenshot of 14.1 official sheet we use to make it clear.

As for "one by one" counting I've beeen told that at last EC there were some girls pushing the buttons every time a ball was made, which updated the score on digital screens. No wonder they missed some during the racks (two balls dropped at a time or smth else). Mikko was a ref there so he could tell if a proper paper sheet was used by the players. I suppose no because those score misses led to several wrong scores - which would have been corrected of there was another source to compare.

Vahmurka
04-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Our 14.1 scoresheet:
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/9488/14scoresheetux2.jpg

Under "Points" we write the number of balls on the table prior to the player's inning start. And before every break shot during the game. Therefore it is never above 15. Under "-/+" we write either points received or deducted (in case of a foul). "Total" is intended for a player's total amount of points.

I filled the sheet to give an example:
Player A starts with a scratch, penalized by a point. B runs 2 and misses, 2 in his Total column. We count the balls remaining on the table, get 13 and write it down to A's "Points". A runs 3 and misses, 3 to his -/+, 2 Total. Count the balls on the table again, 10. B misses and his Total remains unchanged. 10 balls at A's service now, he runs 3. Which is added to previous Total 2, equals 5. B runs 5 balls (of 7 remaining when he gets to the table) and leaves 2 for A. A makes 1 and is ready to break the rack. 15 balls on the table. And A shifts to second gear ;) and runs the rack. Prior to another break he writes 15 again. And runs another one! Adds Total each time, now being 34. Writes 15 again before next break and... misses a break ball. Player B approaching the table now has 15 balls to start his 4th inning of the match, and so on.
We can see player has a run of 28 (34-6), total 34 points scored in 5 innings (6,8 points average). It only could be hard to count innings right because you have to identify continuous runs - but we have EPBF statisticians for this, who else needs to know an average :D

But in general this way is easy and reliable :)

Bob Jewett
04-05-2007, 03:29 PM
... But in general this way is easy and reliable :)
It's at least different.

Suppose you start with 10 balls on the table and make three balls and foul on your fourth shot. How is that score indicated? It must be with a +2, but the number of balls on the table goes from 10 to 7, not 10 to 8 for the start of your opponent's inning. So, there seems to be no clear indication on the score sheet of when a foul occurs. It is very important to indicate on a 14.1 scoresheet when a foul has occurred.

mjantti
04-05-2007, 03:41 PM
Vahmurka, there were two different scoresheets used in the EPC. I personally didn't understand the sheet with the "+/-" thing at all. I didn't know what to put on "points" to start with. I've always used the other scoresheet earlier when I had to do the scorekeeping. And with your example, you messed up the number of innings adding a new rack for each inning (numbered lines). The other official scoresheet had "table" - "points" - "total" which is more clear to me, because that's the system I've learnt and used. The only "problem" in that lies in the terminology, you can't have more than 15 balls at the "table" but the scoring is done that way in any case. And during EPC, there were separate scorekeepers on each table to write down the scoresheet and use the scoringboard on the laptop which was connected to the live scoring on the EPC site. We refs had to occasionally replace a scorekeeper when he/she was late/absent.

I noticed also, that your example of a scoresheet was given to the women's matches and my example of a scoresheet was given to the men's matches. I don't know why. Probably they didn't expect women to run more than one rack :)

To Steve: ok, with beads you can have the run marked separately. It's just that I've travelled around Europe quite a lot and I've never seen beads used in any of the pool halls here :)

mjantti
04-05-2007, 03:45 PM
It's at least different.

Suppose you start with 10 balls on the table and make three balls and foul on your fourth shot. How is that score indicated? It must be with a +2, but the number of balls on the table goes from 10 to 7, not 10 to 8 for the start of your opponent's inning. So, there seems to be no clear indication on the score sheet of when a foul occurs. It is very important to indicate on a 14.1 scoresheet when a foul has occurred.

If you start with 10 on "table" and run 3 and foul on your shot, I always put "3-1" on the "points" part indicating that the inning ended with a foul and the total run was 2. The upcoming opponent now starts with 7 on "table" and if the scoresheet is checked, there is no contradiction there which would be the case if the first player would have just "2" in his "points" column instead of "3-1".

Bob Jewett
04-05-2007, 03:51 PM
If you start with 10 on "table" and run 3 and foul on your shot, I always put "3-1" on the "points" part indicating that the inning ended with a foul and the total run was 2. ...
The US system also works. The upshot of all of this discussion is that the WC 14.1 organizers will need to train whoever will be keeping score with whatever sheets are provided. No matter which sheets are used, someone will be confused.

Vahmurka
04-05-2007, 04:55 PM
If you start with 10 on "table" and run 3 and foul on your shot, I always put "3-1" on the "points" part indicating that the inning ended with a foul and the total run was 2. exactly
The upshot of all of this discussion is that the WC 14.1 organizers will need to train whoever will be keeping score with whatever sheets are provided.That's right, Bob!

mjantti
04-06-2007, 04:44 AM
The US system also works. The upshot of all of this discussion is that the WC 14.1 organizers will need to train whoever will be keeping score with whatever sheets are provided. No matter which sheets are used, someone will be confused.

Bob makes a valid point here. The real purpose of this conversation is to make players and officials realize that 14.1 scoring systems are not uniform all around the world, which of course they should be. One of the reasons for this is the lack of 14.1 tournaments. I hope that changes too.

Voodoo Daddy
04-07-2007, 05:23 AM
If Steve Lipsky is playing this year...I'll make the trip. Total class act he is.

Voodoo~~~One Pocket Junkie but has been known to slap a 60 together

justnum
04-07-2007, 09:34 PM
Well planning for the waves of 14.1 tournaments a solid infratructure accomodating international players will require a system evolved from current standards.

This includes a digital scoring system. Hook up a labtop have wireless devices at each table. Then you can centralize display witha main scoreboard. The reasoning being why should the players be distracated. Its the fans that need to see it more. The solution does not solve the counting problem what it does is make the tournament have an updated look.

Wired devices look sloppy and wiring is a mess. If you need someone to cook up the wireless device that will cost a fee.

If your willing to work on the FM/AM band pick up a CB radio and just phone it in. A main scoreboard was lacking at the 14.1 Jersey 06. Even text msg would suffice.

Adopt technology. Once you get used to the system then improvements to other areas are convenient are a simple computer command away.

Paper controls not so hot due to delay in communications.

At the DCC 06 the tech solution was not so hot, since they had projector issues. And they didnt have dummy terminals available for players(fans) to search for their match and time.

My bet is some of the pool tourney workers aren't fans of technology which is seen in the implementation.