PDA

View Full Version : Help me run this rack


mthornto
03-18-2007, 07:21 PM
I tought it would be fun and educational to have the group here work through a straight pool rack. So, I played a couple of setup breakshots until I came up with a nice spread that I think is probably very easy for the good players, but that the rest of us could easily fail to get out because of poor shot selection.

Specificaly, I would like to have some good players look at the table and tell us how you would play it and why.

Here is the Cue Table layout of the table just after the break shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm3BCYf4CQGA3DIJS3EROT4FdGu4Gabk3HBjH3Iaag4JC Bc3KVEI4LCww1MVxd4NEcO3OYFa4PPtV@

mthornto
03-18-2007, 07:30 PM
So start this off, here is what I am thinking about. Keep in mind, I am a favorite to NOT get out.

First off, I see just two shots to start the rack with: the 7 or the 13.

All the balls are open except the small cluster in the middle. To break out the cluster, the 14 is a natural. Also, the 2 will go once the 3 is removed.

For break balls as they sit, the 14 or 10 seem to be natural choices. However, it seems to me that the 14 will have to be played or moved before the end of the rack.

My first goal is to clear the paths to the pockets. Need to get the 11, 15, and 3 out of the way. I see a lot of ways to get started, here are two that I thought might be a good way to go:
1) 13, 7, 11, 15
2) 7, 11, 15

The second choice seems a little easier in the going from the 13 to 7 gives me a straight shot on the 7, but I need to draw into a very small window to get at the 11. The second pattern gives me a very large window. However, the 13 could be a problem if I leave it too long.

michael <- can't wait to see the good players to show me simpler, safer patterns I can learn from.

3andstop
03-18-2007, 07:46 PM
looks like playing the 13 off the hop may straighten out the 7 too much and I'd like to get the 3 off using the 7.

My first thought was this ...

7 3 11 15 2 bottom left pocket, 8 top side opening slightly 1 12 14 with the shot, considering 10 and 9 as break key or what happens to 12 after the 8. Tough to go on from there for me without seeing how they would lie.

SPINDOKTOR
03-18-2007, 08:23 PM
Id shoot the 7 first and go into the 12,1 hopefully spreading the 8 and 2 out some as well. Leaving the three for the next shot. from there Id work my way back to the 13 leaving the 9, 11 and 10 for the last three shots, Id use the 10 for the break ball. Id shoot the 9, followed by the 11 to set up the shot on the 10.

but thats me, Im sure there are proboly better ways but I like the 10 for a break ball in this perticular rack. The one could also be used but it would be difficult to control the speed off the rail with the cue ball with just enough speed off the 7 to nudge the one into a prestine break location If I did then thats the ball id use.

SPINDOKTOR

Dan White
03-19-2007, 05:10 AM
The first thing I notice is that you have a free shot at making the 8 an ideal break ball (for me being a lefty). Come off the 7 and go into the 8. If you miss, you might hit the 12 and bump the 1 out instead (although the 1 would be a little too high maybe). Or, you might miss the 8 and hit the 2, possibly making it a break ball. In either case, you will still have the 3 for your safety ball. You might create an ideal break ball, and even if you don't you've just moved the cluster around a little, which would probably also be good. I'd go from there if I was successful on the 8.

I don't care for shooting the 13 as it looks more like a 9 ball shot (too long). Also if you shoot it, you'll have another long shot coming back for the 7, unless you really pop the 13 and draw back. But then this will make the 13 missable. It just looks like there are bigger fish to fry, and you will be able to maneuver up there closer later on. If the 8 moved out well, I'd make the 13 part of the end sequence along with the 4 and 5.

So that's my first thought. I'm sure the big ball runners will have more interesting things to say.

dwhite

Andrew Manning
03-19-2007, 08:10 AM
I don't like going into this cluster from the bottom-left direction, because hitting the 8 softly enough to develop it as a break ball carries a big risk of leaving you stuck to one of those balls. I like hitting the 5 with draw for a first shot, bring the CB back to center-table. Then sinking the 14 and gently going into the 1 ball full will carom the 8 off the 2 into break ball position, and you've got almost every ball on the table available for your next shot. If you don't draw far enough off the 5, you've got the balls near the top left corner to shoot and reset yourself for another try, and if you draw too far, you've got the 13 to use to reset for another try. That's definitely what my plan of attack would be. Then once I developed the 8 into a break shot, I'd probably miss an easy shot in the "easy" middle part of the rack, where all the balls are open, and then my opponent would use my perfectly opened rack to start a run of at least 30 or 40 while I kick myself.

-Andrew

Andrew Manning
03-19-2007, 11:01 AM
So where are the opinions from our acknowledged authorities, Steve Lipsky, sjm, Blackjack, etc.? I'm curious to know how some real 14.1 heavyweights would do this.

-Andrew

jsp
03-19-2007, 12:24 PM
I'm no "acknowledged authority", but I'll give my 2 cents as well. :D

The 7 and 14 looks like good balls to break up the middle cluster. But I wouldn't go into the cluster immediately, considering the congestion in the top-left corner.

I would pot the 5 first, then 15, 9 (top-right corner), and 4 (side). After potting the 4, I'd want to be sure I follow down a bit to get proper angle on the 14 for the break out shot. I would hit the break out shot fairly softly such that the 1 or 8 can come out as a break ball.

If I get the wrong angle on the 14, then I'd play the 11 for my break out shot. If I get too much angle on the 14, then I'd use the 7 as my break out shot. The 13 would be left as an insurance ball.

supergreenman
03-19-2007, 12:47 PM
CUE TABLE LINK (http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm3BCYf4CQGA3DIJS3EROT4FdGt4Gabk3HBjH3Iaag4JC Bc3KVEI4LCww1MVxd4NEcO3OYFa4PPtV3VCYf4Vcps4WQGA4Wc Qt4WcQt3XIJS3XdxD3YROT3YdYC3YdhB3YdhB4babk4bbKo3da ag3dcQs3fVEI3fcQq1hVxd1hbjt3jYFa3jcYu4kPtV3kOdX3kS yx3kFtk4kGBo4kOJq4kaqW4kajS3kFwb3kXoI3kbaA3kPfT3kE dV3kDfQ3kHNQ1kVhN1kbWP1kBgT3kaRN@)

Ok, I planned all the way up to the 9 ball, how ever, I had to stop there because my next shot would totally depend on how the cluster got broken up 3 shots before hand using the 2. The 10 was my ball to either get on the 14 for the break, or get on one of the 3 remaining balls from the cluster.

Steve Lipsky
03-19-2007, 12:49 PM
The 7-3-11-8 looks to be the way I'd attack this.

If I have to, I can use the 9 to stop my cueball after shooting the 11. (If the 9 passes the 15, I'd try to leave it alone.) After the 11, I want to shoot the 8 next, which opens the rack. From there, it will all depend on exactly where you get on the 8. But I know I can play these 4 balls correctly about 100% of the time, and it opens everything, so that's my starting pattern.

Btw, I would probably not begin with the 13 ball here. It's missable, and even if you don't miss it, as someone else mentioned you can get too straight on the 7 next. There is no way I'm going to risk ending my run with a table as open as this. The 13's not a great ball to leave up, but it's also not terrible. I wouldn't bother with it yet.

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
03-19-2007, 01:00 PM
This rack has one big problem ball, and it's the 3. The 3 has to be removed quickly - it will start to handcuff you if you don't.

Since there's a way to take it off comfortably almost immediately, I think you have to.

Just my opinion...

supergreenman
03-19-2007, 01:04 PM
This rack has one big problem ball, and it's the 3. The 3 has to be removed quickly - it will start to handcuff you if you don't.

Since there's a way to take it off comfortably almost immediately, I think you have to.

Just my opinion...
I agree, the 3 is the third ball in the pattern that I came up with.

jsp
03-19-2007, 01:22 PM
The 7-3-11-8 looks to be the way I'd attack this.

If I have to, I can use the 9 to stop my cueball after shooting the 11. (If the 9 passes the 15, I'd try to leave it alone.) After the 11, I want to shoot the 8 next, which opens the rack. From there, it will all depend on exactly where you get on the 8. But I know I can play these 4 balls correctly about 100% of the time, and it opens everything, so that's my starting pattern.

Btw, I would probably not begin with the 13 ball here. It's missable, and even if you don't miss it, as someone else mentioned you can get too straight on the 7 next. There is no way I'm going to risk ending my run with a table as open as this. The 13's not a great ball to leave up, but it's also not terrible. I wouldn't bother with it yet.

- Steve
After reading your two posts, I very much agree with everything you said. I also realize that my initial post is absolute garbage. :p

Thanks for the lesson. :)

Blackjack
03-19-2007, 08:31 PM
I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets up the 1 for a break ball. I hate the position of that 14 for 3 reasons:
1) its a bit high
2) there is no easy key ball
3) that 1 ball is screaming and begging to be tapped out of there. :p

Before someone points this out - I KNOW that the one will probably be just as high as the 14 - however I have two workable key balls once the one is tapped out of there, the 4 and the 5 balls. The 14 can also serve as a key ball for the 1. Even if I knock the 1 ball too far, I still have the 14 - plus a shot on the 3 ball.

After accomplishing that, I am then going for the 3 ball right away. After I I contact the 12, the 3 is my insurance ball. The rest of the rack plays pretty simple with the exception of the 8 and the 2. That forces me to clear out that top corner pocket - going 3 - 11 - 10 - 15. This opens that pocket up for the 9, which will set me up for the 8 and the 2. The others are pretty much set. The 4 is probably my key ball in this rack - it depends if I need to eliminate the 5 or 14 at some point, I have 3 key balls to spare - and 2 workable break balls. Having more than one option is extremely important and I always look for ways to tilt the odds in my favor, not in the favor of the table or the layout of the balls.

bruin70
03-19-2007, 08:43 PM
I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

.

i like bumping into the cluster also. normally, i like high breakshots, but the 14 is a little too high.
the table is laid out pretty simply with the exception of a few nuisances. the 3,11, and that funny cluster,,,,,which is why i prefer taking the opportunity to open that up JUST A BIT and the 7 is a perfect ball to do it with. who knows,,,another breakshot may reveal itself, or maybe an easier way to clear that mess up. BUT IN ANY CASE, if there's nothing there, i can always get back to the 3-11 and continue the sequence.

only this time, there'll be a different dynamic because the cluster will have changed from what it was previous, which i didn't like.

Blackjack
03-19-2007, 08:50 PM
i like bumping into the cluster also. normally, i like high breakshots, but the 14 is a little too high.
the table is laid out pretty simply with the exception of a few nuisances. the 3,11, and that funny cluster,,,,,which is why i prefer taking the opportunity to open that up JUST A BIT and the 7 is a perfect ball to do it with. who knows,,,another breakshot may reveal itself, or maybe an easier way to clear that mess up. BUT IN ANY CASE, if there's nothing there, i can always get back to the 3-11 and continue the sequence.

only this time, there'll be a different dynamic because the cluster will have changed from what it was previous, which i didn't like.

Like I said, that 1 ball is just SCREAMING to be tapped out of there!!! :p

Nothing can be lost by trying this because of the position of the 3 which is sitting as an insurance ball. I like going for that now because I might not get another opportunity to get in there - at least not another opprtunity that is set up as sweet as this.

bruin70
03-19-2007, 08:55 PM
can i see the 5?

5 - get an angle on the 12.
12
11 - dink the cb over near the 3(tapping it would be great)
10 - bump the 2 or 8 for a breakshot.

worse case scenario is i'll always have the 14 as a backup breakshot.

Dan White
03-19-2007, 09:01 PM
I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets up the 1 for a break ball. I hate the position of that 14 for 3 reasons:

1) its a bit high
2) there is no easy key ball
3) that 1 ball is screaming and begging to be tapped out of there. :p


I had two comments, if you wouldn't mind responding.

(1) You said that the 1 would be just as high as the 14, but you have the 4 and 5 as key balls. Does this mean that you will use the 4 and 5 to make a very shallow break shot on the 1, whereas you couldn't do that as well with the 14? What would it take for you to use the 9 as a key ball to shoot the 1 as a side pocket break?

(2) I noticed both you and Steve passed on the thought of bumping the 8 over into break position. I didn't see any downside to doing this. I don't think you can get snookered at the speed needed to move the 8 over. The position is a little tricky, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me, either. What do you think?

Thanks,
Dan White

Blackjack
03-20-2007, 10:01 AM
I had two comments, if you wouldn't mind responding.

(1) You said that the 1 would be just as high as the 14, but you have the 4 and 5 as key balls. Does this mean that you will use the 4 and 5 to make a very shallow break shot on the 1, whereas you couldn't do that as well with the 14? What would it take for you to use the 9 as a key ball to shoot the 1 as a side pocket break?


I would never use the 9 to get on the 1 in the side. I don't like having to take a behind the stack or side pocket break shot unless I really have to.

As far as the 4 and 5 giving a "shallow" break shot - remember it all depends upon what ball that you would use to set up for your key ball. If all goes as planned, I would rather use the 4 or 5 as a set up and use the 14 as a key ball. Plan B being using another ball to shoot the 4 or 5 into the side pocket or up table to get a good angle on the 9. In a situation such as this where you have so many possibilities, it really comes down to the player and what he or she is comfortable with. It also comes down to dealing with what happens throughout the run. I believe its important to have more than one option just in case Plan A goes into the crapper. That is why I said that I like to have more than one break ball and more than one key ball - just so I have a backup plan if things go wrong.


(2) I noticed both you and Steve passed on the thought of bumping the 8 over into break position. I didn't see any downside to doing this. I don't think you can get snookered at the speed needed to move the 8 over. The position is a little tricky, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me, either. What do you think?

When I initially looked at the layout, the 1 & 12 screamed at me. I was not able to hit all of the 8 ball, plus it looked as if the cue ball might contact other balls recklessly - so I passed on it. This goes back to my "neat in - neat out" theory. If I go into the 8 ball, I might also clip the 12, or the 2 - I might even move the 1 also. By directing the cue ball into the 12 ball (on the low side) I know that I will only move the 12 and the 1 ball - merely opening up the balls slightly enough to be able to open them up for a pocket. The 2 and the 8 are free and they don't need to be moved, so why mess with it? Neat in and neat out means that I want the cue ball to contact only one ball and then get free and open for my next shot - in this case hopefully the 3 ball. Going into the 8 is not out of the realm of possibility, I just believe that the percentage shot was splitting the cluster with the 12.

Also - speed is a major factor in both shots. If the 1 ball goes too far over, then it goes on the rail above the 9 ball. That's really not a big problem, you still have the 14 as a break ball, and you haven't traded one cluster for another problem. If you tap the 8 too far over it gets in between the 9 and the 15 - possibly creating a combination for you later on down the line. That's trading the cluster for a combination - something that is never fun to deal with, especially if the balls are not lined up to your liking.

Dan White
03-20-2007, 07:38 PM
When I initially looked at the layout, the 1 & 12 screamed at me. I was not able to hit all of the 8 ball, plus it looked as if the cue ball might contact other balls recklessly - so I passed on it. This goes back to my "neat in - neat out" theory. If I go into the 8 ball, I might also clip the 12, or the 2 - I might even move the 1 also. By directing the cue ball into the 12 ball (on the low side) I know that I will only move the 12 and the 1 ball - merely opening up the balls slightly enough to be able to open them up for a pocket. The 2 and the 8 are free and they don't need to be moved, so why mess with it? Neat in and neat out means that I want the cue ball to contact only one ball and then get free and open for my next shot - in this case hopefully the 3 ball. Going into the 8 is not out of the realm of possibility, I just believe that the percentage shot was splitting the cluster with the 12.

OK, thanks for the explanation. I guess I was worried that neither the 1 nor the 14 were going to yield much of a spread on the next rack's break shot, so a kind of a free shot on the 8 would be worth it.

dwhite

Deadon
03-21-2007, 02:52 AM
For me;

5,15,11,3,13,7,10,8,2,1,12,9,4,14.... only move 2 balls, when shooting the 8.

dmgwalsh
03-21-2007, 07:05 AM
For me;

5,15,11,3,13,7,10,8,2,1,12,9,4,14.... only move 2 balls, when shooting the 8.

Looks a little difficult to me. 10,8,2,1?? are you bumping the 1 and the 12 when shooting the 8 in the side or are you coming around the other sided to get the 8?

Then you're going to get on the 12? nine on the rail and back to your break shot?

Pinpoint cue ball control needed with some fair execution.

Deadon
03-21-2007, 09:39 AM
Actually not that much, just a couple of stop shots and a short follow, thats the idea. Its only a stop shot from the 13 to the 7.

Stop shot and roll off the rail a little and shoot 10 straight in the corner and stop, maybe backup a hair. Shot the 8 in the side, its almost straight in, with a little follow separating the 1 and 12, by hitting the 1, making sure you hit hard enough to push the one above the 14.The cue ball will come off the 1 almost straight on the 2.

Shoot the 2 in the bottom corner, draw, as necessary to get on the 1 in the side, probably to the rail and out a little. Shoot the 1 in the side and draw back a little to shoot the 12 in the bottom corner. It should be just a short draw to get on the 9 as a key ball. If there is an angle, go to the end rail and back up. Shoot the 9 and come off the rail a little, then 4 with a little follow to get desired angle.

Really the cue ball moves very little and you only really have to hit the 1 ball. It should be easy to execute each of the shots, you can't get so far out of line that you don't have a shot of some kind. The toughest shot is the 8 in the side, which is easy to make, speed and getting the cue ball to come off the 1 just right is a little touchy, but again, the worst thing that can happen is an angle on the 2. Which means you roll to the end rail and back up to get on the 1 in the side.

Steve Lipsky
03-21-2007, 09:56 AM
Deadon,

I like your solution, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on about it which very slightly turned me off to it. I think I've found it - there is sort of a "trip around the world" feel to this out. I feel like until the middle/end of the pattern (once you get to the 8 ball), you're going from one area of the table to the next, really only pocketing one ball from each.

That's not necessarily a bad thing... and I really like how your pattern is very logical - there's not a lot of difficult cueball movement at all.

It wouldn't be my choice, simply because of what I mentioned in the first paragraph, but there is an elegance in the logic behind it, which I do like.

- Steve

Deadon
03-21-2007, 12:19 PM
Deadon,

I like your solution, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on about it which very slightly turned me off to it. I think I've found it - there is sort of a "trip around the world" feel to this out. I feel like until the middle/end of the pattern (once you get to the 8 ball), you're going from one area of the table to the next, really only pocketing one ball from each.

That's not necessarily a bad thing... and I really like how your pattern is very logical - there's not a lot of difficult cueball movement at all.

It wouldn't be my choice, simply because of what I mentioned in the first paragraph, but there is an elegance in the logic behind it, which I do like.

- Steve

Thanks Steve;

Your are correct in that it has that around the world feel. Which is how I approached it. Cleaning everything from the rails and near the pockets, except the key 9 ball, then deal with the middle of the table. I felt that once all those areas were clear, and they were very easily executed shots, I could concentrate on the only problem, the 1 ball. If I got out of line, there would almost certainly be an alternative shot, and or approach. Probably only hit the rail 1 or 2 times in the whole run, if I was lucky. But we all know how that works out.

Mike

Steve Lipsky
03-21-2007, 12:48 PM
Cleaning everything from the rails and near the pockets, except the key 9 ball, then deal with the middle of the table. I felt that once all those areas were clear, and they were very easily executed shots, I could concentrate on the only problem, the 1 ball.]

Mike,

One suggestion I have is to reclassify balls as either "annoying" or "problems". As an example, in this rack, the 13 is annoying; it's not a problem.

It has been my experience that solving the problems before the annoyances has great benefits. You see in the pattern I chose that I get to the problems as soon as possible. There are many benefits to this, not the least of which is that if you get slightly out of line when dealing with a problem, you'll by definition have more balls left on the table which can bail you out and let you try again.

By the way, I have been doing this "annoying"/"problem" classification for some time, but I've never put my thoughts into words. This has been a great thread, guys.

- Steve

Blackjack
03-21-2007, 01:19 PM
Mike,

One suggestion I have is to reclassify balls as either "annoying" or "problems". As an example, in this rack, the 13 is annoying; it's not a problem.

It has been my experience that solving the problems before the annoyances has great benefits. You see in the pattern I chose that I get to the problems as soon as possible. There are many benefits to this, not the least of which is that if you get slightly out of line when dealing with a problem, you'll by definition have more balls left on the table which can bail you out and let you try again.

By the way, I have been doing this "annoying"/"problem" classification for some time, but I've never put my thoughts into words. This has been a great thread, guys.

- Steve

I enjoy threads such as this because there are as many solutions as there are responses. I learn by seeing how others are tackling the problem, especially those players that think the exact opposite way that I do. Whether we agree or disagree is not half as important as the fact that we can all learn something from each other by seeing things from somebody else's thought process/problem solving process.

bruin70
03-21-2007, 03:38 PM
Thanks Steve;

Your are correct in that it has that around the world feel.

Mike

but that's the way it's laid out.

that was my solution as well, but i prefered to take out the 10 and break out the 2/8 while i still had the backup 3. and it's not as if the "around the world" is around the WHOLE table,,,it's half the table, and you're spiraling into the center, which is a valid pattern. and the whole time, the table is balanced, not one-sided.

taking out the 7-3 is ok, but then there's no balls on that side of the table any longer. i like that the "around the world" leaves the 7(well, my way anyway), which btw, is a good 3rd ball because it's a stop shot to the 4.

all in all, this table is so open, you could cowboy this rack and still come away with a good break.

Dan White
03-21-2007, 03:50 PM
Mike,
It has been my experience that solving the problems before the annoyances has great benefits. You see in the pattern I chose that I get to the problems as soon as possible. There are many benefits to this, not the least of which is that if you get slightly out of line when dealing with a problem, you'll by definition have more balls left on the table which can bail you out and let you try again.


You wrote about this maybe a year or so ago, and it hit me at a point when I was ready to hear it. I knew to get problems out of the way early, but I had a habit of removing too many open balls before getting to the problem. I think the way you put it was that once every ball has a pocket to go to THEN you can start shooting balls in. This mindset has been very helpful.

Thanks again!
dwhite

Deadon
03-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Mike,

One suggestion I have is to reclassify balls as either "annoying" or "problems". As an example, in this rack, the 13 is annoying; it's not a problem.

It has been my experience that solving the problems before the annoyances has great benefits. You see in the pattern I chose that I get to the problems as soon as possible. There are many benefits to this, not the least of which is that if you get slightly out of line when dealing with a problem, you'll by definition have more balls left on the table which can bail you out and let you try again.

By the way, I have been doing this "annoying"/"problem" classification for some time, but I've never put my thoughts into words. This has been a great thread, guys.

- Steve

Steve;

Sounds like a good idea. It adds mental structure, which can never hurt. I suppose I do this subconsciously anyway, but thinking about it could never hurt. I will work on that.

In this rack, the annoyances to me would be the balls blocking the pockets and maybe the 13. The 1 ball was the only real problem and I decided to do it the way I did because I wanted the bottom and side pockets open so when I hit it, I had a pocket. If I hit it earlier, as some suggest, cue ball position and the trajectory of it, the 1, and the 12, in some offered solutions, would be more difficult to predict. Perhaps resulting in no pocket for the balls or another problem created.

My preference is also to solve problems early, but I want to be sure to move the balls into their own space and give them a friendly pocket.:)

Great thoughts, appreciate the gymnastics.

Mike

Deadon
03-21-2007, 06:33 PM
BTW..

Bruin and Blackjack;

What I am referring to above is why I wouldn't do what you would.

Going into the 12 from the 7 can do too many things. Yes, one is to move the 1 for a break ball. But if you hit the right side of the 12, which is most likely, you create a cluster with the 8 and 2. If you hit it full or to the left, you are shooting your next shot over a ball, almost straight in. Not an impossible shot, but best avoided when you can.

If you hit it harder to avoid shooting over a ball, the 1 goes to the area of the 9, perhaps even on the rail. Hence you have another problem.

If I was to hit them from the 7, I would split the 8 and 2, making the 8 a new break ball. The 1 would then go in the corner after the 14, so it would no longer be a problem. Splitting the balls would be safe, as there are balls to shoot and you would be able to cue easily. This would be a delicate shot, but is doable. The balls would all be open. There are many ways to get it done from there. The 1, 12 or 14 could be used as key balls with the 5 setting you up for a break with the 8. Just another way.

bruin70
03-22-2007, 01:41 AM
BTW..

Bruin and Blackjack;

What I am referring to above is why I wouldn't do what you would.

Going into the 12 from the 7 can do too many things.

.

errrrr,,, i was agreeing with blackjack's recognition of the cluster but my approach was actually similiar to yours if you look near the top of page 2. the only difference is that i chose to pop the 10 and into the 2/8 with the 3 still available as insurance, and HOPING to leave the 7 as the 3rd ball to the stop shot 4 setup.

TheOne
03-22-2007, 03:31 AM
This rack is all about 1 question, do you like any of the 10 as a break ball?
If yes then ALL the balls can be picked off without moving anything. Once the 3 and 11 have been removed the 2 and 8 can go and then the 1 and 12 will go in the opposite corner using the 14 for easy position. I do like this type of break shot but I suspect the 10 ball maybe a little too central to be ideal.

Therefore as an alternative I would move the 3 and then the 11 because I really like the ATTACK ANGLE from the 10 into the cluster early on (probably 4th shot). I think this shot played at slowish speed would create several break balls and also has many insurance balls if played at the right speed.

lfigueroa
03-22-2007, 04:58 AM
I tought it would be fun and educational to have the group here work through a straight pool rack. So, I played a couple of setup breakshots until I came up with a nice spread that I think is probably very easy for the good players, but that the rest of us could easily fail to get out because of poor shot selection.

Specificaly, I would like to have some good players look at the table and tell us how you would play it and why.

Here is the Cue Table layout of the table just after the break shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm3BCYf4CQGA3DIJS3EROT4FdGu4Gabk3HBjH3Iaag4JC Bc3KVEI4LCww1MVxd4NEcO3OYFa4PPtV@


I'm late to this party, but here's my stab:

5 ball first to get on the three balls to the right corner pocket (by the way, there's no way I'd shoot the 7 first :-)

Then I'd get the three balls by the pocket to clear that side and open a path for the 10
9
15
11

Now I'd go back and get the 7. Depending on the angle I get for the 10, I'm then trying to bump the 2 or 8 into break shot position or bump the 12 into the 14 for a break shot. The 3 and 4 are the insurance balls, but also, by going relatively gently into the balls there a fair chance that if I don't manufacture a break ball on my first attempt, these balls are in close enough proximity to one another that I'll get a second opportunity to make a break ball.

It's tough to say what happens from there, but as soon as I could I'd go get the 13 and finish up with the last few balls all in the rack area.

Lou Figueroa

Deadon
03-22-2007, 09:30 AM
i like bumping into the cluster also. normally, i like high breakshots, but the 14 is a little too high.
the table is laid out pretty simply with the exception of a few nuisances. the 3,11, and that funny cluster,,,,,which is why i prefer taking the opportunity to open that up JUST A BIT and the 7 is a perfect ball to do it with.who knows,,,another breakshot may reveal itself, or maybe an easier way to clear that mess up. BUT IN ANY CASE, if there's nothing there, i can always get back to the 3-11 and continue the sequence.

only this time, there'll be a different dynamic because the cluster will have changed from what it was previous, which i didn't like.


Sorry Bruin70. Guess I was was looking at this one and didn't quite understand that you were only talking about his approach.:)

Deadon
03-22-2007, 09:54 AM
I'm late to this party, but here's my stab:

5 ball first to get on the three balls to the right corner pocket (by the way, there's no way I'd shoot the 7 first :-)

Then I'd get the three balls by the pocket to clear that side and open a path for the 10
9
15
11

Now I'd go back and get the 7. Depending on the angle I get for the 10, I'm then trying to bump the 2 or 8 into break shot position or bump the 12 into the 14 for a break shot. The 3 and 4 are the insurance balls, but also, by going relatively gently into the balls there a fair chance that if I don't manufacture a break ball on my first attempt, these balls are in close enough proximity to one another that I'll get a second opportunity to make a break ball.

It's tough to say what happens from there, but as soon as I could I'd go get the 13 and finish up with the last few balls all in the rack area.

Lou Figueroa


Good idea. I would only be concerned about your next shot and position after hitting the 8 or 2, especially if hit soft, otherwise its looks like it should work fine. In an earlier post I suggested the possibility of splitting the 8/2, but that was from the 7. The 10 will move either of those balls much better without some of the problems using the 7. The backside is also clean, so pushing the balls that direction isn't a prolem. If the 8 moves out right, everything will go in a pocket and you have a very good break ball, if it doesn't you may have to do a little more work, but not much.

Very nice solution.

Mike

Deadon
03-22-2007, 10:05 AM
This rack is all about 1 question, do you like any of the 10 as a break ball?
If yes then ALL the balls can be picked off without moving anything. Once the 3 and 11 have been removed the 2 and 8 can go and then the 1 and 12 will go in the opposite corner using the 14 for easy position. I do like this type of break shot but I suspect the 10 ball maybe a little too central to be ideal.

Therefore as an alternative I would move the 3 and then the 11 because I really like the ATTACK ANGLE from the 10 into the cluster early on (probably 4th shot). I think this shot played at slowish speed would create several break balls and also has many insurance balls if played at the right speed.

Sometimes we get too "pureist" when we mentalize what we would "like" to do. You are correct in thinking that the 10 is possible break ball. If the 9 goes by the 15, I would save it to get on the 10 because I prefer the long side of the break from below, but it is not necessary. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is good. Sometimes we learn from looking at things a little differently.

cuetable
03-22-2007, 10:12 AM
CUE TABLE LINK (http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm3BCYf4CQGA3DIJS3EROT4FdGt4Gabk3HBjH3Iaag4JC Bc3KVEI4LCww1MVxd4NEcO3OYFa4PPtV3VCYf4Vcps4WQGA4Wc Qt4WcQt3XIJS3XdxD3YROT3YdYC3YdhB3YdhB4babk4bbKo3da ag3dcQs3fVEI3fcQq1hVxd1hbjt3jYFa3jcYu4kPtV3kOdX3kS yx3kFtk4kGBo4kOJq4kaqW4kajS3kFwb3kXoI3kbaA3kPfT3kE dV3kDfQ3kHNQ1kVhN1kbWP1kBgT3kaRN@)

Ok, I planned all the way up to the 9 ball, how ever, I had to stop there because my next shot would totally depend on how the cluster got broken up 3 shots before hand using the 2. The 10 was my ball to either get on the 14 for the break, or get on one of the 3 remaining balls from the cluster.

Hi,

Just a friendly note that might be helpful to you :)
From your original layout, if you press "K" and then "N" (both capital letters) you will then get this as the result:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm4Bcps4CcQt3DdxD3EdhB4FdGt4GbKo3HBjH3IcQs4JC Bc3KcQq4LCww1Mbjt4NEcO3OcYu3PaRN@

If you then press "D" it will save the result onto page2.

(the idea of having multiple pages came from Steve Lipsky. he gave me another great idea the other day for me to work on)

bruin70
03-22-2007, 01:25 PM
Sometimes we get too "pureist" when we mentalize what we would "like" to do. You are correct in thinking that the 10 is possible break ball. If the 9 goes by the 15, I would save it to get on the 10 because I prefer the long side of the break from below, but it is not necessary. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is good. Sometimes we learn from looking at things a little differently.

a few nice things about a below the rack breakshot,,,1...there's almost ALWAYS one available. i have never had to manufacture a below-the-rack, whereas there are times when one must do so for a traditional break,,,2...a setup ball is easy if not right there because all one eventually has to do is roll the cb down to the rail,,,3...the breakshot will always be short with no reaching no fuss no muss. don't have to worry about left hand-right hand issues...4,,,in setting this up, there is more leeway for error than any other breakshot i know.

the only reason i don't used it more is because of the stigma of tradition.

TheOne
03-22-2007, 01:51 PM
a few nice things about a below the rack breakshot,,,1...there's almost ALWAYS one available. i have never had to manufacture a below-the-rack, whereas there are times when one must do so for a traditional break,,,2...a setup ball is easy if not right there because all one eventually has to do is roll the cb down to the rail,,,3...the breakshot will always be short with no reaching no fuss no muss. don't have to worry about left hand-right hand issues...4,,,in setting this up, there is more leeway for error than any other breakshot i know.

the only reason i don't used it more is because of the stigma of tradition.

well said, I think it's a sexy shot when played well with running side bring the cb round 3 rails into the centre of the table for a feast of shots.

This rack brings up a good point though, all thes balls are in makeable positions without having to break into anything. What is the order of precedence, take a below rack break shot and connect the dots without doing any hard work or change your whole rack agenda because it's not perfect? :confused:

Steve Lipsky
03-22-2007, 02:39 PM
a few nice things about a below the rack breakshot,,,1...there's almost ALWAYS one available. i have never had to manufacture a below-the-rack, whereas there are times when one must do so for a traditional break,,,2...a setup ball is easy if not right there because all one eventually has to do is roll the cb down to the rail,,,3...the breakshot will always be short with no reaching no fuss no muss. don't have to worry about left hand-right hand issues...4,,,in setting this up, there is more leeway for error than any other breakshot i know.

the only reason i don't used it more is because of the stigma of tradition.

You know I enjoy talking straight pool with you, Bruin. This is a rare exception where I disagree. It is hard for me to believe you have never manufactured a break ball, as the opportunity to do so comes up quite often. Here is a pattern I rather enjoy playing, which I'm sure you've seen and played yourself about a thousand times:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AEUY3BCIx4CVML4PBRQ@

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
03-22-2007, 02:43 PM
What is the order of precedence, take a below rack break shot and connect the dots without doing any hard work or change your whole rack agenda because it's not perfect? :confused:

Count me among the group who loves below-the-rack break shots. When it's off to one side, and you don't have to play it the Craig-Riley-Sexy-Inside-English-Way, it's unmissable, predictable, and very high-yielding.

Bruin mentioned a stigma about these shots... I sure hope new players to the game aren't passing these shots up. For all the reasons Bruin mentioned, they are excellent shots.

- Steve

Deadon
03-22-2007, 02:54 PM
well said, I think it's a sexy shot when played well with running side bring the cb round 3 rails into the centre of the table for a feast of shots.

This rack brings up a good point though, all thes balls are in makeable positions without having to break into anything. What is the order of precedence, take a below rack break shot and connect the dots without doing any hard work or change your whole rack agenda because it's not perfect? :confused:

I think unless you are very familiar with them, knowing where the cue ball is going, its easy to get into trouble. Lot of congestion in a smaller area. The pocket is also smaller, especially on a tight table, but you are closer, and frequently the break requires better execution. That is to say most of the time you are using english, and top or bottom spin.

The example stated is what I mean. Yes, you go 3 rails, but you shoot the shot with high inside english. Not that its that difficult. I agree it looks cool. As does going through the last couple balls and spinning up to the center. But my favorite is launching the cue ball so it bounces over the balls a little, but thats more common a shot or two after the break. Some of the small pleasures of 14.1:)

supergreenman
03-22-2007, 04:00 PM
Hi,

Just a friendly note that might be helpful to you :)
From your original layout, if you press "K" and then "N" (both capital letters) you will then get this as the result:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm4Bcps4CcQt3DdxD3EdhB4FdGt4GbKo3HBjH3IcQs4JC Bc3KcQq4LCww1Mbjt4NEcO3OcYu3PaRN@

If you then press "D" it will save the result onto page2.

(the idea of having multiple pages came from Steve Lipsky. he gave me another great idea the other day for me to work on)
Thanks, for the tip Wei. :)

supergreenman
03-22-2007, 04:04 PM
Count me among the group who loves below-the-rack break shots. When it's off to one side, and you don't have to play it the Craig-Riley-Sexy-Inside-English-Way, it's unmissable, predictable, and very high-yielding.

Bruin mentioned a stigma about these shots... I sure hope new players to the game aren't passing these shots up. For all the reasons Bruin mentioned, they are excellent shots.

- Steve
lmao, Steve, at my level of play, I'll take any break shot I can get. Below the rack break shots are easier to set up a lot of the time.

TheOne
03-22-2007, 04:38 PM
hehe, love this thread, good to hear other ideas as I'm very much still learning. Interesting to hear that most people still decided to try to develop a better break ball despite 1 or 2 being available. Also interesting to hear the different ways people chose to go into the cluster. I think it's the snooker in me that enjoys picking a pack apart with each shot opening a ball into the opposite pocket, often a large cluster can be taken apart this way without breaking into it.

PS
I still like the break shot off the 10, I'd be confident of catching the 8 ball half ball first which would nudge the other balls out and open it up nicely (if I passed up the sexy one of course! :p )

Blackjack
03-22-2007, 10:26 PM
This rack is all about 1 question, do you like any of the 10 as a break ball?
If yes then ALL the balls can be picked off without moving anything. Once the 3 and 11 have been removed the 2 and 8 can go and then the 1 and 12 will go in the opposite corner using the 14 for easy position. I do like this type of break shot but I suspect the 10 ball maybe a little too central to be ideal.

Therefore as an alternative I would move the 3 and then the 11 because I really like the ATTACK ANGLE from the 10 into the cluster early on (probably 4th shot). I think this shot played at slowish speed would create several break balls and also has many insurance balls if played at the right speed.

Craig,

I saw the 10 ball too. I think that if you are able to maneuver around this layout and leave yourself a stop shot on the 11 for your key ball, that this is the best angle to get the most from the ensuing break shot. The only problem I see is the 2 and the 8, and you will have to leave the 11 there - not sure how successful I would be at that, maybe I will try it tomorrow to see how it works. BTW - layouts like this are like a good woman, sometimes I just can't help myself and I gotta hit it from behind. :D

bruin70
03-22-2007, 11:13 PM
You know I enjoy talking straight pool with you, Bruin. This is a rare exception where I disagree. It is hard for me to believe you have never manufactured a break ball, as the opportunity to do so ,,,,,,,,,,

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AEUY3BCIx4CVML4PBRQ@

- Steve

i think the reason is, steve, that i still play a "traditional" game, and i'll only opt for the below the rack shot if i don't have a decent normal break, and in those situations, the BTR shots are alway there. . maybe if i decide to play a whole game below the rack, i might have to move some balls. i don't do it enough to encounter any probs.

.........GO BRUINS !!!!!.........
you knew THAT was coming.

Deadon
03-22-2007, 11:26 PM
From the consenses of ideas, if I may make an observation. This discussion is developing a following, a commradre of sorts. An exchange of ideas and tactics. It like continuing ed., and making friends at the same time.

lfigueroa
03-23-2007, 06:21 AM
a few nice things about a below the rack breakshot,,,1...there's almost ALWAYS one available. i have never had to manufacture a below-the-rack, whereas there are times when one must do so for a traditional break,,,2...a setup ball is easy if not right there because all one eventually has to do is roll the cb down to the rail,,,3...the breakshot will always be short with no reaching no fuss no muss. don't have to worry about left hand-right hand issues...4,,,in setting this up, there is more leeway for error than any other breakshot i know.

the only reason i don't used it more is because of the stigma of tradition.

I don't know much, but personally, I only go to the behind the rack break if there's nothing off the sides of the rack available. IOW, it's my second choice as far as break balls go, mostly because you pretty much have only one choice -- a lot of follow, maybe with some english -- as far as where exactly you're going to go into the stack, if you want to break open the rack and get to the center of the table. IOW, you're limited as to how much you can manipulate the cue ball with this shot. Also, there's a good chance you're going to run into traffic going either way -- one or three rails -- especially going by the corner balls.

Lou Figueroa

bruin70
03-23-2007, 01:13 PM
excuse me if anyone has brought this up, as this thread is now 4 pages long and i'm lazy,,,,

but i think the 7 - 3 - 11 bump the 15 off the rail and out for a breakshot is eminently do-able. from there you can shoot the 10 - 8 and open the cluster,,,or 9 - 8, break the cluster. if the cb gets on the amatuer side of the 8, you go 8 - 2 break the cluster.

the thing is, you already can settle for the 10 - 14 as breakballs,,,the four ball cluster can provide a breakball,,,the 15 can be bumped. that's SEVEN different balls to create breakshots with and six balls (14/7/10/3/15/9) in various combinations to realize them. so it's a matter of how much time do you want to spend fineggling your ideal breakshot.

i could spend more time thinking about all the choices than actually shooting.

harthpg
03-23-2007, 11:57 PM
The break shot is the 10 and the key ball is the 15, these have to stay. I think the 9 will go into the corner without moving the 15, if I'm correct shoot the 7, 3, 13, 11 (to clear the way for the 1 and 12 later), then the 2, 8 and 14 (these were not a cluster and should not have been moved). Then the 1 and 12 in the corner by the 15, draw back enough off the 12 to see the 5 in the side then the 4 in the lower left corner. Then shoot the 9 behind the 15 into the corner and finally drop the 15 in the same corner for easy position for a behind the rack break with the 10.

If the 9 won't go behind the 15 shoot the 15 after the 4 and leave yourself straight on the 9 into the far corner with little draw for position on the 10.

Most important, don't move the 8,2,1,12, 14 group before pocketing them. If you do you'll create problems that can't be predicted.

Recently I have had a number of 30 ball runs and once in a while a 40 or 50 so take my suggestions with a bit of caution.

Good Luck!