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Ohplayer
03-28-2007, 08:51 AM
Hello,

My name is Josh Adkins. I live in Franklin, Ohio and I’m a member of AZBilliards.com (Ohplayer).
I would like to offer all of you an opportunity to become involved with a Straight Pool challenge that I am creating after getting the idea from one of the topics here on AZBilliards.com.

The challenge will be for players to attempt to break Willie Mosconi’s world record 526 Straight pool mark. I am in the process of creating a website (www.beat526.com) that will explain the rules and regulations for those attempting to break the record. To provide incentive for players to attempt the record, I will offer up a reward of whatever we have collected up to the point of when the record is broken. I will keep a running tab of the amount on the website. The reward will come from Straight pool fans who donate to our fund to help promote Straight Pool. 100% of the donations (minus administration costs, which will be minimal) will go to the person who officially breaks the record. I will do all of the work on the website for free forever* to minimize the administration costs.

You may ask what will make people want to make a donation. Well, I’m hoping just the love of Straight Pool will be incentive enough. However, I thought about making everyone who donates $100 or more an official member with recognition on the website and possibly special discount opportunities from hopeful sponsors. I also thought about offering sponsorship opportunities to businesses for a donation of $1000 or more.

I have run the idea past some Straight Pool heavyweights and some believe for the record to be official it would have to take place at an advertised exhibition or match with multiple witnesses. So, that will be the rule. The record can take place on an 8 foot or 9 foot table as long as it is witnessed and pre-advertised.

I am open to all suggestions on this. I'm just a big fan of straight pool who can't play a lick, but would like to help promote the sport. The Paypal account that I’ve set up to get this started is beat526@gmail.com. I will have it changed soon to an email related to the break526.com domain. I have also setup an Etrade savings account to transfer the money into so that it will incur interest to help pay for any administration costs until the record is broken. I'm not doing this for the money, so please don't think this is a scam. You can email me at beat526@gmail.com if you have any questions or suggestions. I welcome them all.

Thanks,
Josh Adkins

lfigueroa
03-28-2007, 03:02 PM
Hello,

My name is Josh Adkins. I live in Franklin, Ohio and I’m a member of AZBilliards.com (Ohplayer).
I would like to offer all of you an opportunity to become involved with a Straight Pool challenge that I am creating after getting the idea from one of the topics here on AZBilliards.com.

The challenge will be for players to attempt to break Willie Mosconi’s world record 526 Straight pool mark. I am in the process of creating a website (www.beat526.com) that will explain the rules and regulations for those attempting to break the record. To provide incentive for players to attempt the record, I will offer up a reward of whatever we have collected up to the point of when the record is broken. I will keep a running tab of the amount on the website. The reward will come from Straight pool fans who donate to our fund to help promote Straight Pool. 100% of the donations (minus administration costs, which will be minimal) will go to the person who officially breaks the record. I will do all of the work on the website for free forever* to minimize the administration costs.

You may ask what will make people want to make a donation. Well, I’m hoping just the love of Straight Pool will be incentive enough. However, I thought about making everyone who donates $100 or more an official member with recognition on the website and possibly special discount opportunities from hopeful sponsors. I also thought about offering sponsorship opportunities to businesses for a donation of $1000 or more.

I have run the idea past some Straight Pool heavyweights and some believe for the record to be official it would have to take place at an advertised exhibition or match with multiple witnesses. So, that will be the rule. The record can take place on an 8 foot or 9 foot table as long as it is witnessed and pre-advertised.

I am open to all suggestions on this. I'm just a big fan of straight pool who can't play a lick, but would like to help promote the sport. The Paypal account that I’ve set up to get this started is beat526@gmail.com. I will have it changed soon to an email related to the break526.com domain. I have also setup an Etrade savings account to transfer the money into so that it will incur interest to help pay for any administration costs until the record is broken. I'm not doing this for the money, so please don't think this is a scam. You can email me at beat526@gmail.com if you have any questions or suggestions. I welcome them all.

Thanks,
Josh Adkins


Well, I applaud your enthusiasm for 14.1 and all that, but...

Basically Bob Jewett is doing this, in a setting for all to see, with many of the best players in the world having a chance to practice all year and, as the Brits would say, "have a go" at it for a whole week.

He puts up 10K out of his own pocket. That's tough to beat :-)

Lou Figueroa

Ohplayer
03-28-2007, 05:16 PM
I have already conversed with Bob. What I'm trying to do is a little different. I welcome all suggestions and advice.
Thanks

3andstop
03-28-2007, 05:47 PM
Well, the first thing that comes to my mind after owning a pool room and, lets say, knowing first hand the variety of characters who frequent these rooms, you certainly have the entire spectrum of morals at hand. From absolute gentleman, to those who would dump a bet if their mother had money on them.

If the money gets good enough, I could easily see a whole troop of them swearing to being witness to a 1000 ball run. :)

pdcue
03-28-2007, 06:27 PM
I have already conversed with Bob. What I'm trying to do is a little different. I welcome all suggestions and advice.
Thanks

First off, Willie set this record in a context that can't be duplicated.
Letting a bunch of 100 ball runners start with their favorite
break shot and plug away till there hearts content, would not,
let me repeat, not be equivalent to what Mosconi did

I can give you lots of details if you are interested. PM me if you
care for more info

Dale Pierce

Blackjack
03-29-2007, 01:50 PM
Josh

Your idea is very similar to the idea I had for starting/promoting a new professional tour. I would suggest that offering all of this money for one run would be a very very tough sell, however if you are interested in promoting the sport, the same type of energy can be put into starting a new Straight Pool Tour and perhaps giving a reward for the high run of each tournament.

Personally, Mosconi's 526 is legendary - I don't believe that anybody will break it or attempt to break it on a 4X8 table - I believe Enegert's 492 was on a 9 ft table - and I am unsure to the specs of the table Mike Eufemia ran his 625, and I am not one of those that doubts the legitimacy of Mike's run either.

I believe that the great 14.1 players of the past have been overlooked in the last 30 years of professional 9 ball. The hall of fame doesn't have guys like Colavita, Ervolino, or Carella - and I find that sad. I would love to see the German/European 14.1 masters of today (Hohmann, Souquet, Engert, Orttman, Immonen) go against some of our best players - Harriman, Eberle, Robles, Schmidt, Archer) - I think that would be an extremely exciting matchup - make it round robin play - race to 125. It would be much more fitting for the "Mosconi" Cup to be about 14.1 instead of 9 ball - Mosconi was never fond of 9 ball anyway.

I like your enthusiasm. If we had 100 people that shared your enthusiasm and support for the game, we could get something like this started - a grass roots supported tour - we could record and market dvd's of the events, market other products that would help bring revenue for the tour.

I have always believed that pool fails because the promoters are not giving the fans what they want to see. They try to give them what they "think" the fans want to see. Having worked for Paul Heyman at ECW in the early to mid 1990's I know that you don't need extravagant production values or big money to generate interest in any business endeavor. You just need people that love what they are doing dedicated to their marketbase - the fans. We cannot be dedicated to a bunch of executives looking down their noses at us in a stuffy board room at ESPN.

Remove the veil and present pool in its truest, barest form. To hell with tuxedos. To hell with having Earl behave himself. Put it out there and publicly display elements of the game that will draw attention to us - negative or positive. Attempting to break the 526 record won't do that (IMO). Putting Keith in the pit against Tony Chohan - complete with backers, sidebets, and the entertaining quality of the personalities in that setting is an area that we have not yet explored in promoting our sport. It has always been viewed as "dangerous territory". IMHO, having tours dying miserable deaths every 5-10 years is much more dangerous than anything that hasn't been tried yet.

bigskyjake
03-29-2007, 02:01 PM
I have always believed that pool fails because the promoters are not giving the fans what they want to see. They try to give them what they "think" the fans want to see. Having worked for Paul Heyman at ECW in the early to mid 1990's I know that you don't need extravagant production values or big money to generate interest in any business endeavor. You just need people that love what they are doing dedicated to their marketbase - the fans. We cannot be dedicated to a bunch of executives looking down their noses at us in a stuffy board room at ESPN.

Remove the veil and present pool in its truest, barest form. To hell with tuxedos. To hell with having Earl behave himself. Put it out there and publicly display elements of the game that will draw attention to us - negative or positive. Attempting to break the 526 record won't do that (IMO). Putting Keith in the pit against Tony Chohan - complete with backers, sidebets, and the entertaining quality of the personalities in that setting is an area that we have not yet explored in promoting our sport. It has always been viewed as "dangerous territory". IMHO, having tours dying miserable deaths every 5-10 years is much more dangerous than anything that hasn't been tried yet.



Quite possibly one of the top 3 posts I've read
You Sir, know what the sport needs

Jake

TheWizard
03-29-2007, 03:17 PM
Josh

Your idea is very similar to the idea I had for starting/promoting a new professional tour. I would suggest that offering all of this money for one run would be a very very tough sell, however if you are interested in promoting the sport, the same type of energy can be put into starting a new Straight Pool Tour and perhaps giving a reward for the high run of each tournament.

Personally, Mosconi's 526 is legendary - I don't believe that anybody will break it or attempt to break it on a 4X8 table - I believe Enegert's 492 was on a 9 ft table - and I am unsure to the specs of the table Mike Eufemia ran his 625, and I am not one of those that doubts the legitimacy of Mike's run either.

I believe that the great 14.1 players of the past have been overlooked in the last 30 years of professional 9 ball. The hall of fame doesn't have guys like Colavita, Ervolino, or Carella - and I find that sad. I would love to see the German/European 14.1 masters of today (Hohmann, Souquet, Engert, Orttman, Immonen) go against some of our best players - Harriman, Eberle, Robles, Schmidt, Archer) - I think that would be an extremely exciting matchup - make it round robin play - race to 125. It would be much more fitting for the "Mosconi" Cup to be about 14.1 instead of 9 ball - Mosconi was never fond of 9 ball anyway.

I like your enthusiasm. If we had 100 people that shared your enthusiasm and support for the game, we could get something like this started - a grass roots supported tour - we could record and market dvd's of the events, market other products that would help bring revenue for the tour.

I agree with this wholeheartedly and is a view that I've had for the past 8/9 years or so :)

"Straight Pool is pool" (Paul Newman's reference on Straight Pool in The Color Of Money")

To me, straight pool is the ultimate test of a pool player's ability in every sense of shotmaking, safety, being able to run balls/racks, cue ball control, concentration and focus, and overall knowledge :)

If there is ever going to be a straight pool tour, let me know because straight pool really does sort out the men from the boys :)

I have always believed that pool fails because the promoters are not giving the fans what they want to see. They try to give them what they "think" the fans want to see. Having worked for Paul Heyman at ECW in the early to mid 1990's I know that you don't need extravagant production values or big money to generate interest in any business endeavor. You just need people that love what they are doing dedicated to their marketbase - the fans. We cannot be dedicated to a bunch of executives looking down their noses at us in a stuffy board room at ESPN.

Remove the veil and present pool in its truest, barest form. To hell with tuxedos. To hell with having Earl behave himself. Put it out there and publicly display elements of the game that will draw attention to us - negative or positive. Attempting to break the 526 record won't do that (IMO). Putting Keith in the pit against Tony Chohan - complete with backers, sidebets, and the entertaining quality of the personalities in that setting is an area that we have not yet explored in promoting our sport. It has always been viewed as "dangerous territory". IMHO, having tours dying miserable deaths every 5-10 years is much more dangerous than anything that hasn't been tried yet.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

The ONLY thing that I liked about the IPT, was the fact that they were going back to playing on the heavier cloths, and I feel that straight pool is better played on heavier cloth, the same as it was when we had all the greats and legends of the game, like Mosconi, Caras, Greenleaf, Crane, Balsis, Lassiter, The Miz, and many more :)

3andstop
03-30-2007, 06:44 AM
I suppose like everything else in life it's all about what you like. For me, not only do I love straight pool, I abhor 9 ball. IMO it reduces the beauty and purity of the game to something less than its greatness deserves.

However, I think they also said in the Color of Money something to the effect that "everybody is doing it, and if everybody is doing it, thats a lot of people doing it."

Its going to be difficult to see our love return full stride especially with these youngsters in love with smashing things, jumping things and having games be over before they start. It is alot easier for them than dedicated concentration and thats another thing kids would rather avoid. :(

Williebetmore
03-30-2007, 07:59 AM
Just a note from "the other side of the fence." To me the record means very little. I think it is clear that Willie Mosconi himself thought little of the record. He was much more proud of championships won in meaningful competition (long races to 2 or 3 thousand).

His record was not the result of a desire to see how many he could run. Both he and his friends thought he could easily run in the 800-900 range if he would ever seriously attempt such a feat. His friends in KC were never able to convince him to try it - he thought it was not meaningful enough. He had literally hundreds (if not thousands) of unfinished hundreds.

When practicing in KC for tournaments, his method was to play until he ran 200, then quit. This occurred every day, and usually took less than 2 hours.

If Willie never attempted the "high run for high run's sake", then of what meaning is it for others to match the run on different table's in a "high run contest"? To me, competitive straight pool on tough equipment is much more enjoyable to watch.

Having said all of that, good luck with your venture.

TheOne
03-30-2007, 01:28 PM
Just a note from "the other side of the fence." To me the record means very little. I think it is clear that Willie Mosconi himself thought little of the record. He was much more proud of championships won in meaningful competition (long races to 2 or 3 thousand).

His record was not the result of a desire to see how many he could run. Both he and his friends thought he could easily run in the 800-900 range if he would ever seriously attempt such a feat. His friends in KC were never able to convince him to try it - he thought it was not meaningful enough. He had literally hundreds (if not thousands) of unfinished hundreds.

When practicing in KC for tournaments, his method was to play until he ran 200, then quit. This occurred every day, and usually took less than 2 hours.

If Willie never attempted the "high run for high run's sake", then of what meaning is it for others to match the run on different table's in a "high run contest"? To me, competitive straight pool on tough equipment is much more enjoyable to watch.

Having said all of that, good luck with your venture.

Some good points Willie75, however if Mosconi was playing races to 2000 then he would have had plenty of opportunity to make 800-900 ball runs. Hey I reckon I could run 1000 if I "really tried" :rolleyes: I take these types of statements with apinch of salt, rest assured his best was what we all know it to be.

Williebetmore
03-30-2007, 01:48 PM
Some good points Willie75, however if Mosconi was playing races to 2000 then he would have had plenty of opportunity to make 800-900 ball runs. Hey I reckon I could run 1000 if I "really tried" :rolleyes: I take these types of statements with apinch of salt, rest assured his best was what we all know it to be.

TheUnitaryValue,
Actually I believe that the long, multi-city matches were generally played in blocks of 200 or 250 or 300 points per session's (once the combined score of the contestants reached the critical value, the day's competition was over). I believe most of these sessions were begun with a competitive lag and opening break. While the score was cumulative, the contest was NOT played as a continuous game.

There are several players (Mosconi, Caras, Cranfield, Nagy, Eufemia, DiLiberto) that may have been observed running more than 600, but just were not counting. I tend to doubt that their "best" efforts are known; and I definitely think that every one of those players, given the incentive, the time, and favorable equipment was definitely capable of breaking the record. I heard Cicero Murphy say that if there was a $100,000 prize (about 1975) for high run, that the high run would be "about a thousand". I think he was joking, but he certainly intended it to have an element of truth.

It is good, however, to see that you are confident in that 1000 ball run, I will certainly wager a beer against it - I'll even give you 3 tries.

P.S. - the degenerate pool gamblers who told me Willie could easily break the record if motivated were NOT the most reliable guys on the planet. If they told you water was wet, you would want to take it "with a pinch of salt."

TheOne
03-30-2007, 01:58 PM
TheUnitaryValue,
Actually I believe that the long, multi-city matches were generally played in blocks of 200 or 250 or 300 points per session's (once the combined score of the contestants reached the critical value, the day's competition was over). I believe most of these sessions were begun with a competitive lag and opening break. While the score was cumulative, the contest was NOT played as a continuous game.

There are several players (Mosconi, Caras, Cranfield, Nagy, Eufemia, DiLiberto) that may have been observed running more than 600, but just were not counting. I tend to doubt that their "best" efforts are known; and I definitely think that every one of those players, given the incentive, the time, and favorable equipment was definitely capable of breaking the record. I heard Cicero Murphy say that if there was a $100,000 prize (about 1975) for high run, that the high run would be "about a thousand". I think he was joking, but he certainly inteded it to have an element of truth.

It is good, however, to see that you are confident in that 1000 ball run, I will certainly wager a beer against it - I'll even give you 3 tries.

Maybe Willie, Im just skeptical of this kinda of stuff, people tend to look back on past heros through rose coloured glasses. Their amazing feats tend to get exagerated even more over time with stories past from person to person with each one often adding more too it each time. Wllie is probably more famous for his high run than anything else he ever did in modern times at least. If he had run more than this I'm sure he would have made sure he would have at least corrected anyone who quoted as recognized run.

I'll take that bet, however of course it involves me quiting my work and living in a single table pool room with super fast cloth and generous pockets for the next 50 years. Want to fund my effort? :D

bruin70
03-30-2007, 02:04 PM
getting back to the topic at hand...i have a problem with this "public donation" concept. considering all that pool goes through it seems almost every year, asking the public to participate in a highly speculative endeavor that may never happen makes no sense.

add to that the logistics involved, overhead costs(paying for all the players' expenses), the venue, getting a paying public TO that venue,,,,the roadblocks go on and on.

Williebetmore
03-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Maybe Willie, Im just skeptical of this kinda of stuff, people tend to look back on past heros through rose coloured glasses. Their amazing feats tend to get exagerated even more over time with stories past from person to person with each one often adding more too it each time. Wllie is probably more famous for his high run than anything else he ever did in modern times at least. If he had run more than this I'm sure he would have made sure he would have at least corrected anyone who quoted as recognized run.

I'll take that bet, however of course it involves me quiting my work and living in a single table pool room with super fast cloth and generous pockets for the next 50 years. Want to fund my effort? :D

TheHalfaCouple,
Very, very true. Skepticism is DEFINITELY warranted. All sports have the same problem - past players feats are exagerrated, current players exploits are over-valued. Quite a contradiction.

In any case, during his heyday Willie was definitely most well-known for his 15 world championships and for his total domination of the competition. His money (and his competitor's) did NOT come from high run's - it came from exhibitions and competitions. I am NOT convinced that any of those players (or any players since) have had sufficient incentive to break this record.

Having said all of that, I applaud your desire to break the record; and YES I will definitely fund it (will $14 be enough? It's really all I can afford right now). I do however expect to share equally in all endorsement income you receive as a result of achieving this milestone in sport.

TheOne
03-30-2007, 02:21 PM
TheHalfaCouple,
Very, very true. Skepticism is DEFINITELY warranted. All sports have the same problem - past players feats are exagerrated, current players exploits are over-valued. Quite a contradiction.

In any case, during his heyday Willie was definitely most well-known for his 15 world championships and for his total domination of the competition. His money (and his competitor's) did NOT come from high run's - it came from exhibitions and competitions. I am NOT convinced that any of those players (or any players since) have had sufficient incentive to break this record.

Having said all of that, I applaud your desire to break the record; and YES I will definitely fund it (will $14 be enough? It's really all I can afford right now). I do however expect to share equally in all endorsement income you receive as a result of achieving this milestone in sport.

Sure wish I could watch more video of Mosconi, u know the first time I EVER saw 14.1 played professionally was last year in NJ :(

Aww shucks busking it is then! :)

pdcue
03-30-2007, 08:12 PM
Some good points Willie75, however if Mosconi was playing races to 2000 then he would have had plenty of opportunity to make 800-900 ball runs. Hey I reckon I could run 1000 if I "really tried" :rolleyes: I take these types of statements with apinch of salt, rest assured his best was what we all know it to be.

Uh. No, he wouldn't.

1500 is actually the total for the championship head to head matches.
Individual games were typicaly 250 points. So, 250 is the most you could run if you were in the lead. To run 800, he would had to have been 800 points
behind. Not bloody likely...

Dale

sjm
03-30-2007, 09:06 PM
An interesting idea. I'm torn a little here. I largely agree with those that suggest that breaking the record isn't terribly important, but the other side of me says that if a large prize were available to the first to accomplish the feat, pros would liklely play the game of straight pool more often, which might help to further popularize the game.

I recall mentioning to Irving Crane that Art Cranfield claimed a personal best of over 700 and Irving's reply was that he found the claim likely to be true (almost 20 years later, I learned that Cranfield had actually done it twice). I truly believe that all of Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Dallas West or Joe Balsis were capable of a 1,000 ball run, just like older masters Mosconi and Greenleaf. All of them simply had no incentive to go for high runs, which were very, very time consuming if played with maximum concentration.

bruin70
03-30-2007, 09:45 PM
Just a note from "the other side of the fence." To me the record means very little. I think it is clear that Willie Mosconi himself thought little of the record. He was much more proud of championships won in meaningful competition (long races to 2 or 3 thousand).

His record was not the result of a desire to see how many he could run. Both he and his friends thought he could easily run in the 800-900 range if he would ever seriously attempt such a feat. His friends in KC were never able to convince him to try it - he thought it was not meaningful enough. He had literally hundreds (if not thousands) of unfinished hundreds.

When practicing in KC for tournaments, his method was to play until he ran 200, then quit. This occurred every day, and usually took less than 2 hours.

If Willie never attempted the "high run for high run's sake", then of what meaning is it for others to match the run on different table's in a "high run contest"? To me, competitive straight pool on tough equipment is much more enjoyable to watch.

Having said all of that, good luck with your venture.


couldn't agree more.

and the simple fact is, the whole point and strategy of 14.1 is lost. there would be no safeties because there would be no opponent. so the players would try for all the shots that they would've otherwise passed up on.

while a fan of 14.1, i'm ceratinly not a fan of "all offense 14.1". that's for low attention span players like earl.

Takumi4G63
03-31-2007, 04:49 AM
I truly believe that all of Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Dallas West or Joe Balsis were capable of a 1,000 ball run, just like older masters Mosconi and Greenleaf. All of them simply had no incentive to go for high runs, which were very, very time consuming if played with maximum concentration.

It just seems like nobody is in any position to know this or even have a reasonably good idea. Just what do you mean when you say that these people are "capable" of a 1000 ball run? I don't see how you can get rid of a huge amount of ambiguity in this claim. Sure, they have the physical ability to play the game extremely well, but could they concentrate for 1000 balls? I have no idea, but I do know that it is insane to concentrate that long. Would they get good enough rolls for 1000 balls? Again, who knows? It just seems pointless to claim anyone is "capable" of 1000 ball run if they tried when there are so many unknown factors.

In pool it seems that the only reliable way to tell what someone is capable of is by what they have actually accomplished. Anything else is far too speculative just because of the nature of the game of pool.

Williebetmore
03-31-2007, 05:46 AM
It just seems like nobody is in any position to know this or even have a reasonably good idea.

...In pool it seems that the only reliable way to tell what someone is capable of is by what they have actually accomplished. Anything else is far too speculative just because of the nature of the game of pool.

Tak-man,
I guess I will definitely have to disagree with this.

The players in the first half of this century played straight pool almost exclusively for their whole lives. The fans that hung around them watched straight pool almost exclusively for their whole lives. It's like asking a current fan or player the question, "do you think Earl could run 11 racks of nine-ball in a row?" While the answer is speculative in nature, I do not believe that it is "far too speculative." The people "speculating" are the experts and true students of the game. I value their opinion (if Irving Crane told me that black was white, I would probably still tend to believe him - he had character).

I think sjm has hit the nail on the head - there was virtually no incentive for these men to engage in "record-setting" attempts.

I also would be in favor of ANY venture that would encourage the best players in the world to return to playing the true championship game.

sjm
03-31-2007, 07:19 AM
Just what do you mean when you say that these people are "capable" of a 1000 ball run?

First of all, I don't think physical conditioning is an issue here and I don't think maintaining concentration for the seven hours such a run would likely take is a far stretch for any of the players I noted.

Hence, what I mean is that if a player's probability of running a rack, beginning with a breakshot, and ending with a breakshot, is x, then the likelihood of running the 72 racks needed to pass 1,000 is x to the 72 power.

I'm guessing that only the cream of the straight pool crop have an x of greater than 75%. Unfortunately, if their x is just 75%, they are a 1 billion to one shot in a given inning to run over 1,000. A very strong straight pooler like a Dick Lane, Jim Rempe or Jimmy Caras, for example, probably has an x of 80%, but even that would make them a 9.5 million to one shot to run 1,000 on any inning.

I reckon only a handful that ever lived had an x of .85, perhaps just Mosconi, Greenleaf, Cranfield, Sigel, Varner, and Balsis, and a player having an x of 85% can expect to run 1,000 roughly once every 120,000 innings. Hence, I'd conclude that a 1,000 ball run is possible for this group, if players in this category focused chiefly on reaching this goal. I suspect that, of today's players, only Hohmann, Engert, Schmidt, and maybe Feijen are capable of sustained play at this level, and each, I suspect would have to dedicate thier lives to straight pool to attain that level of play.

............That's what I mean.

Still, Takumi, you are right in suggesting that there are enough intangibles involved here that who really knows whether this accomplishment is realistic?

Takumi4G63
04-01-2007, 03:24 AM
Tak-man,
I guess I will definitely have to disagree with this.

The players in the first half of this century played straight pool almost exclusively for their whole lives. The fans that hung around them watched straight pool almost exclusively for their whole lives. It's like asking a current fan or player the question, "do you think Earl could run 11 racks of nine-ball in a row?" While the answer is speculative in nature, I do not believe that it is "far too speculative." The people "speculating" are the experts and true students of the game. I value their opinion (if Irving Crane told me that black was white, I would probably still tend to believe him - he had character).

You seem to misunderstand my problem. For one, Earl has run 11 racks so that is a bit different question. While it seems on the face of it a very understandable question to ask if player X is capable of running XXX balls, I really don't know how to answer any question of this type unless they have actually ran the said number of balls (but even then the answer is not obvious). Ask yourself if you think you are capable of running a 10-pack in 9-ball and it seems clear (unless you've run a 10-pack) that there's no good way to answer this question because (1) you do not know how your mental game will develop as you go and (2) you do not know if you will ever get enough rolls to run it. (and this goes for any player)

It is not a problem with what a person is capable of doing per se (of course it may be that Sigel was capable of a 1000 ball run), but with what we can know about what a person is capable of doing. It seems because of the nature of the game of pool we cannot know (or even have a really good idea) much of what a person is capable of until they have reached the point of, for example, running 500 balls. But even then they may never in their life get decent enough rolls to make another run that big. Are they then not capable of a 500 ball run? See why this is not the clearest question in the world?

I am not against speculating about this but thinking that all these guys were capable of running 1000 balls seems dogmatic for the reasons I gave. I did not mean to say we can't even speculate about what it would take to do this. I just think we necessarily will always have very poor reasons for thinking anyone would be capable of running 1000 balls, especially if they have not even gotten close.

Takumi4G63
04-01-2007, 03:36 AM
First of all, I don't think physical conditioning is an issue here and I don't think maintaining concentration for the seven hours such a run would likely take is a far stretch for any of the players I noted.

How do you have any idea what it takes to concentrate on one straight pool run for 7 hours? That is a whole different ball game than just practicing for 7 hours. Anyone who plays straight pool knows it's very mentally taxing just playing straight for 7 hours even not on any kind of continous run. And for the noted players, one of them, Mike Sigel, said he could not even understand how anyone could concentrate long enough for a 526 ball run. Also, Earl said he was absolutely exhausted after his 400 ball run and he could not fathom running much more (one reason I mentioned physical conditioning)

Hence, what I mean is that if a player's probability of running a rack, beginning with a breakshot, and ending with a breakshot, is x, then the likelihood of running the 72 racks needed to pass 1,000 is x to the 72 power.

I'm guessing that only the cream of the straight pool crop have an x of greater than 75%. Unfortunately, if their x is just 75%, they are a 1 billion to one shot in a given inning to run over 1,000. A very strong straight pooler like a Dick Lane, Jim Rempe or Jimmy Caras, for example, probably has an x of 80%, but even that would make them a 9.5 million to one shot to run 1,000 on any inning.

I reckon only a handful that ever lived had an x of .85, perhaps just Mosconi, Greenleaf, Cranfield, Sigel, Varner, and Balsis, and a player having an x of 85% can expect to run 1,000 roughly once every 120,000 innings. Hence, I'd conclude that a 1,000 ball run is possible for this group, if players in this category focused chiefly on reaching this goal. I suspect that, of today's players, only Hohmann, Engert, Schmidt, and maybe Feijen are capable of sustained play at this level, and each, I suspect would have to dedicate thier lives to straight pool to attain that level of play.

............That's what I mean.

The biggest problem I have with this is that a calculation like this cannot really tell you that any of these players are capable of running 1000 or that they would ever run 1000. It is simply an induction from statistics, but again who knows if any of these players would ever get enough rolls to run 1000 in their lifetime or that they would be able to maintain concentration that long?

Still, Takumi, you are right in suggesting that there are enough intangibles involved here that who really knows whether this accomplishment is realistic?

And who really knows whether anyone is capable of it? - is what I say.

StraightPoolIU
04-01-2007, 08:36 AM
Not to be a wet blanket, but debating whether or not someone is capable of running 1,000 seems to be somewhat of a moot point. To break the "official" high run and win the prize for said contest the player would only have to run 527.

Williebetmore
04-01-2007, 12:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket, but debating whether or not someone is capable of running 1,000 seems to be somewhat of a moot point. To break the "official" high run and win the prize for said contest the player would only have to run 527.

SP,
Very true. In addition, I think Tak-man may have missed the point that all of those players I've mentioned were reported to have been observed running in the 600-700-800 range (but didn't care enough about it to count, or get official witnesses sworn in - and while I doubt that all of these reports are accurate, there are so many that some of these guys must have exceeded at least the 600 level IMO). TheOne came up with the 1000 figure as a joke; but there appear to be many that think that even that level was reachable (not probably by me though).

ghostball
12-06-2007, 08:33 AM
I could not agree more,maybe if we let pool just be as it really is it may it may go somewhere,whats the worst that can happen be the same as it is right know. Go BLACKJACK.
RAY

nick serdula
12-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Had runs over 1200 and 1000!
Merry Christmas all!
Nick :)

iba7467
12-06-2007, 02:46 PM
Would anyone bet that they would ever see 27 racks of 9ball ran in a row?
No
Has it been done and confirmed?
Yes

Would anyone bet they would ever see 700 ran in straight pool?
No
Has it been done and confirmed?
No


I believe there was gambling/grudge/challenge matches in the past where players played to well over 250/500. Was there ever a run this high? Only Willie's and Eufemia's 625. How can someone say, I believe they ran 700. I dare any of you to watch an assembly line (much less time elapsed) and tell me with certainty whether 500 or 600 or 700 had passed.

As with the most successive 9ball racks ran, I believe if it is possible it would have been done.