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Blackjack
03-29-2007, 06:28 PM
This is a situation that I had recently. The situation is that I am 64 balls into the run. I have yet to have a "good" break ball develop. I have a cluster in the triangle area and not many options to break it out. In this cluster I have two balls (the 1 and the 9) that can be nudged out - but the speed of that shot is a BIG factor. I also can use the 8 to contact the stack - or even the 12. This seemed to be the best option. I took a while to look at this one, but eventually I was able to pocket the 3, come off the bottom rail and contact the 5 ball. This nudged the 1 and the 9 out - I was able to use the 1 as a break ball, and the 9 was my key ball. I was just wondering what others would have done in this situation, because I seriously considered other options because I thought I would knock the 1ball up table, eliminating it from being an a break ball option. Would anybody have broken the cluster up differently and used the 3 as a break ball? I seriously considered doing that but the 3 was well behind the stack and I did not feel comfortable with it.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/03_28_07_run_of_93.jpg

Hal2
03-29-2007, 06:45 PM
shot the 3 ball to break apart cluster and the 8 would be my insurance ball. Then I would look at the balls again.
Best Regards,
Hal

BTW - Your make Great and easy to read diagrams

3andstop
03-29-2007, 07:26 PM
Wait a minute ... is this a trick question? :) With the 5/1 so close and the angle they are at, the position glares out as a natural for moving the 1 out for a break. It seems you don't have to worry about which part of the 5 to hit so that offers some extra room for error. The 3 is off the rail so that helps with cue ball direction, and you have the 8 after a soft touch on the 5. The space between the 5 and 1 would help minimize movement on the one also much more than if they were kissing, and if you did manage to miss the tickle, you still have the 8 to the 12. Seems ready made. I'm not sure I even see an alternative worth considering. But that's why you run those 100s and I'm still stuck with my 40s and that one time 78 I keep reminding my buddy about. :)

selftaut
03-29-2007, 07:34 PM
Just because I hate balls on the rails I would have shot the 8 first and come up for the 1 or 9 , but you no doubt made the correct shot, nice shot and great run!

TheWizard
03-29-2007, 07:35 PM
I feel that you played the right shot in this situation, because it was giving you the most options possible, and you still had the 8 for a safety valve to keep the run going if you needed it :)

I will say though, instead of trying to contact the 5 on the near side, I would've been trying to hit it full on, because then the cluster would've opened up that little bit more, therefore giving you a little bit more room to complete the rack, and you would still have had the 8 ball to shoot next :)

Either way I would've played the same option :)

I would also like to echo Hal's views on the diagram, very nicely laid oput and easy to follow :)

Dan White
03-29-2007, 07:57 PM
I took a while to look at this one, but eventually I was able to pocket the 3, come off the bottom rail and contact the 5 ball. This nudged the 1 and the 9 out - I was able to use the 1 as a break ball, and the 9 was my key ball.

Just a question: It looks from the diagram that if you hit the wrong side of the 5, the 1 won't move at all, and you might even lose sight of the 8. On the other hand, if you hit the 5 too thin coming back off the rail, it looks like you could slide over so much that the 8 would be difficult to pocket. In reality, are any of these concerns valid? Did you have to aim to hit the 5 a little to the 8 ball side of center, or did you just aim to hit it anywhere?

thanks,
dwhite

bruin70
03-29-2007, 09:48 PM
i don't think there's any other option but yours.

Gerry
03-30-2007, 04:17 AM
Your option looks best, the only other I see is playing the 3 and getting ontop of the rack to play the 1 or 9 with the side pocket 12 as insurance and making a below the rack breaker with one of the other balls.

Gerry

3andstop
03-30-2007, 04:49 AM
Perhaps I should have been clearer in my thought. When I said you don't have to worry about what part of the 5 to hit, what I meant was if you missed your target you still have good percentages to get the 1 out. If you hit the 5 anywhere that would cause the 1 to move, the direction of the 1 is automatic.

Looking at the diagram and of course diagrams and actual table positions are much different, but looking at the diagram if the side of the 5 opposite the bottom rail is six o'clock, it would seem you could hit almost from between 5 and 6 oclock all the way to 8 oclock.

Certainly you would want to aim at the best area. Besides, how would you "aim to hit it anywhere"? :)

I think attacking this cluster from the top would really limit your chances for a nice side break. When I look at clusters I always try to avoid breaking the initial breaks from the bottom. I don't mind secondary breaks down there since more times than not there are safety valves available and you don't have to crush the shot to avoid getting stuck.

That position looks like a position offered directly by the "pool gods" when they were in a good mood. :)

Blackjack
03-30-2007, 11:07 AM
Just a question: It looks from the diagram that if you hit the wrong side of the 5, the 1 won't move at all, and you might even lose sight of the 8. On the other hand, if you hit the 5 too thin coming back off the rail, it looks like you could slide over so much that the 8 would be difficult to pocket. In reality, are any of these concerns valid? Did you have to aim to hit the 5 a little to the 8 ball side of center, or did you just aim to hit it anywhere?

thanks,
dwhite

Those were my concerns exactly. I have a tendancy to jump up on these shots - and believe me - I am capable of missing the 5 completely. :p That is why I considered using the 9 to break out the cluster and using the 3 as my available (yet crappy) break ball.

I fought my way through this entire rack and threw my hands up in fristration more than once. This was my third attempt to spread those balls (and I was on strike 2) which added to my lack of confidence with the 3 ball.

It worked for me - and I missed an easy shot when I was within reach of 100 because I suck. :)
This is how my run came to an end -

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/missed_shot.jpg

Thanks for the compliments on the diagrams - Hopefully I can teach people by documenting what goes right and what goes wrong - by examining situations afterwards, you can learn where and how you made your mistakes and how to avoid them in the future. FWIW, I had an opportunity to pocket the 8 ball early in the rack and passed on that opportunity. Eventually it came back to to bite me in the a$$.

PS: There was another ball that was close to the 7 - I did not remember its exact position so I omitted it from the diagram.

selftaut
03-30-2007, 11:20 AM
Blackjack, don't put yourself in the suck catagory , if you want to see what "suck" looks like then watch me when I get to 50 , my stroke turns into the shape of a hoolee hoop :(

Blackjack
03-30-2007, 11:50 AM
Blackjack, don't put yourself in the suck catagory , if you want to see what "suck" looks like then watch me when I get to 50 , my stroke turns into the shape of a hoolee hoop :(

lol - at the end of John's 245 - he says that he sucks too - lol -

If John says that he sucks when he misses ball 246, then I really really suck when I miss ball 94!

bruin70
03-30-2007, 12:07 PM
when he was getting ready to play in the first 14.1 championshiop held at the roosevelt, i watched ginky practice, he play awesome racks,,,,clean, simple, smart, pure as the driven snow. got into the 4th rack with zero effort,,,and every run ended in the 40's on an open table with virtually an straight-in, 2 diamond shot shot!!!

Blackjack
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
when he was getting ready to play in the first 14.1 championshiop held at the roosevelt, i watched ginky practice, he play awesome racks,,,,clean, simple, smart, pure as the driven snow. got into the 4th rack with zero effort,,,and every run ended in the 40's on an open table with virtually an straight-in, 2 diamond shot shot!!!

That's the way it is - you can make all kinds of difficult shots - cuts - whatever - play perfect patterns rack after rack - but its the simple and stupid crap that ends the run. That 1 ball wasn't the most difficult shot I faced during this run, but that's the one I screwed up. My 141 ended with a similar, more difficult shot in the side, but this shot is one that I would have made 99 out of 100 times - I just hit it carelessly and missed it by a mile.

Dan White
03-30-2007, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the compliments on the diagrams - Hopefully I can teach people by documenting what goes right and what goes wrong - by examining situations afterwards, you can learn where and how you made your mistakes and how to avoid them in the future.

I have to agree that this type of analysis is outstanding. This forum will become the best place in the world to go for advanced analysis of straight pool if this kind of thing continues, maybe with other top level players chiming in, or even diagramming their own.

Good job!

dwhite

lfigueroa
03-30-2007, 02:53 PM
This is a situation that I had recently. The situation is that I am 64 balls into the run. I have yet to have a "good" break ball develop. I have a cluster in the triangle area and not many options to break it out. In this cluster I have two balls (the 1 and the 9) that can be nudged out - but the speed of that shot is a BIG factor. I also can use the 8 to contact the stack - or even the 12. This seemed to be the best option. I took a while to look at this one, but eventually I was able to pocket the 3, come off the bottom rail and contact the 5 ball. This nudged the 1 and the 9 out - I was able to use the 1 as a break ball, and the 9 was my key ball. I was just wondering what others would have done in this situation, because I seriously considered other options because I thought I would knock the 1ball up table, eliminating it from being an a break ball option. Would anybody have broken the cluster up differently and used the 3 as a break ball? I seriously considered doing that but the 3 was well behind the stack and I did not feel comfortable with it.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/03_28_07_run_of_93.jpg


I think I would have tried to do the same thing.

Lou Figueroa

Neil
03-30-2007, 03:16 PM
Well Blackjack, you already know what I think of you. LOL But I had to read this entire thread 3 timesbefore I saw something. Is he giving us a trick question? A test of some kind? What? The shot you took is the only really viable one to take. I would feel good to get it. So what's the problem? Then it hit me. I have been in the same situation, trying for breakouts and just can't seem to get them for some crazy reason. And when that happens to me, I tend to start to get frustrated and that leads me to really start doubting everything I do. Almost looking for something to go wrong. Could that be whats going on here?

sjm
03-30-2007, 08:55 PM
Just a question: It looks from the diagram that if you hit the wrong side of the 5, the 1 won't move at all, and you might even lose sight of the 8. On the other hand, if you hit the 5 too thin coming back off the rail, it looks like you could slide over so much that the 8 would be difficult to pocket. In reality, are any of these concerns valid? Did you have to aim to hit the 5 a little to the 8 ball side of center, or did you just aim to hit it anywhere?

thanks,
dwhite

I am fully on board with this post, which highlights some of the dangers of this approach. I'm on board with shooting the three here, but I might fear hitting it without some pace. I won't hit it hard, but I'm scared to hit it soft.

Nice thread, Blackjack, but I'd say it would have been better if you didn't indicate which choice you made until later in the thread.

bruin70
03-30-2007, 10:10 PM
there's a lot of leeway on this shot if anyone is worried about not getting another shot if the 5 is hit wrong. from hitting the 5 too thin on the 8ball side to hitting the 5 flush to the 5-4 is the room for error i think.

to hit the 5 too thin on the 8ball side should still give you a shot at the 8, even if the cb lands back at it's current spot...and even at that the cb will bump the 9 out and offer that as an option,,,maybe even making the 9 an above-the-rack breakshot. you can also hit the 5 on the 5-4 line, with the cb grazing the 1 and clearing for the 12...and if you graze the 5 on the 1 side, the cb'll hit the 1 flush and pop it out, and it might even open up the 4 with a potential to push out the 9 for a breakshot,,,pure genius. i suppose if the cb hits the 5 a tad right of where the arrow is pointing you might see the cb crawling to a stop where the 5 could block the 8....but honestly, this is a gimme shot, and if someone has problems executing it, they should go back to "off-the-rail position play 101".

duckie
04-04-2007, 08:42 AM
As a rookie straight pool player, this shot is a great example of some concepts of Babe Cranfield I've been trying to incorporate in to my game. Use easy shots to take care of problems, get problems taken care of sooner rather than later. This shot has all that in it.

Thanks for sharing.