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Dan White
03-29-2007, 08:15 PM
This group is a little thin on contributors, maybe not enough for a poll, but the ones we have are quite good, so I'll try anyway.

I'm wondering which camp you fall into. Let's call it the "Grady Matthews camp" or the "physicist's camp." In Grady's tape on break shots and key balls, he sets up a regular break shot and says something like, "now use a little outside english on this shot. All the best players do it this way." It is the idea we're all familiar with of trying to minimize throw, avoid skid and just "help" the object ball go in. Rempe says the english keeps the object ball from "turning over." In the other camp the physicists (at least one I know of) say that you shouldn't use any english on a cut shot because it increases the variability in what direction the object ball will take, depending on how much english you use. They propose no english.

Of course sometimes you can't use outside english and make the cue ball do what you need it to, but this poll isn't for those cases.

Any comments? BTW, I don't use english unless I need it for coming off a rail.

TheWizard
03-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Hey Dan :), this is a pretty interesting poll to have, because with many players you'll ged many variations in responces, or I would imagine so :)

For me, it would depend on which side of the rack I'm playing my breack shor from and at what distance the object ball is from the rack :)

If I'm playing a side of the stack break, to either corner pocket, then I normally use about half a tip of outside english on the cueball, as Jim Rempe calls it, "Helping english", which like he describes, it stop the object ball from skidding or be thrown too much, and also allows for better cueball control on the break shot also :)

It would really depend though on how steep an angle I got, as to exactly how much or little english I use :)

Dan White
03-29-2007, 08:55 PM
Hey Dan :), this is a pretty interesting poll to have, because with many players you'll ged many variations in responces, or I would imagine so :)

For me, it would depend on which side of the rack I'm playing my breack shor from and at what distance the object ball is from the rack :)

If I'm playing a side of the stack break, to either corner pocket, then I normally use about half a tip of outside english on the cueball, as Jim Rempe calls it, "Helping english", which like he describes, it stop the object ball from skidding or be thrown too much, and also allows for better cueball control on the break shot also :)

It would really depend though on how steep an angle I got, as to exactly how much or little english I use :)

Thanks for the reply. Let me ask... how does your control imporove on the break shot with helping english? Also, I assume you use less english as the angle gets steeper. yes?

dwhite

TheWizard
03-29-2007, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the reply. Let me ask... how does your control imporove on the break shot with helping english? Also, I assume you use less english as the angle gets steeper. yes?

dwhite

Yes that's right :)

Generally you'll be able to get the same good contact on the break ball as you would with a centre ball hit, but without any slide or squirt, but also the cueball has a better chance of coming away from the stack again, whilst still getting the same good solid contact with the stack, as you would get with a centre ball hit on the cue ball :)

I find that if I have a corner pocket breakshot, from the side of the stack, if I have a pretty steep angle and I'm going to hit around the middle of the stack, I'll hit the cueball dead centre, if I'm going to hit lower on the stack, then I use about a half a tip of low outside english, and if I'm going to be hitting high on the stack then about half a tip of high outside english :)

The reason for this, is because I want to be able to get a fairly decent break shot, but at the same time, I want to make sure that I'm avoiding the cueball getting stuck on the stack :), but again, it can vary in many ways, depending on where I'm shooting from and what angle I've got on the break :)

Willie

bruin70
03-29-2007, 09:42 PM
just a guess,,,at speed, any advantage they mention about using outside is negated by the speed of the cb.

also i've seen players use INSIDE follow to spin the cb out off both rails.

TheWizard
03-29-2007, 09:48 PM
Yes, that's right aslo, as various player will have various ways of playing the cueball on the break shot, it just depends on the layout of the break shot and how the individual player perfer's to execute the shot :)

I used to use inside english, when I first started improving at straight pool, but it was only for a short time because I wasn't happy with the results I was getting on the break shot, and so, I switched to using a little outside english instead :)

As the saying goes, "Different strokes for different folks" :)

bruin70
03-29-2007, 11:31 PM
Yes, that's right aslo, as various player will have various ways of playing the cueball on the break shot, it just depends on the layout of the break shot and how the individual player perfer's to execute the shot :)

I used to use inside english, when I first started improving at straight pool, but it was only for a short time because I wasn't happy with the results I was getting on the break shot, and so, I switched to using a little outside english instead :)

As the saying goes, "Different strokes for different folks" :)

i've also heard the inside keeps the cb "out of trouble" when it hits the rack. where did i hear this?,,,,it may have been in relation to how mosconi hit the ball(I AM NOT SURE, SO DON'T QUOTE ME), or maybe it was george mikula. maybe abe rosen told me. it was someone. it makes sense in that inside english is actually running english off the rack, while outside english goes COUNTER to the ball rotation sliding off the rack and burries it instead.

anyway, as has been mention many times before, it all depends on the breaksot setup and how you expect the cb to hit the rack.

Gerry
03-30-2007, 04:10 AM
I have no one favorite spin to use, just what I have found out works for me on any given shot. Also, playing conditions will be a BIG factor in shot selection also.....slow cloth forces me to sometimes use a little more stroke/spin to get the CB where I need it. Another thought is even though 2 breakers look alike, hitting just a shade more or less of the first ball you hit in the stack changes my shot selection dramatically.

Gerry

Dan White
03-30-2007, 02:05 PM
Yes that's right :)

Generally you'll be able to get the same good contact on the break ball as you would with a centre ball hit, but without any slide or squirt, but also the cueball has a better chance of coming away from the stack again, whilst still getting the same good solid contact with the stack, as you would get with a centre ball hit on the cue ball :)

I think there is a corollary to the idea that outside english creates more uncertainty in the shot. Specifically, the physicists will also say that a spinning cue ball does not get itself out of the pack any better than a cue ball without spin. There just isn't enough friction between the balls to matter. Although, if there is enough friction to throw the object ball, why won't the cue ball throw an equal amount in the other direction? You'd think it would help some, but the question is how much is "some"?

dwhite

lfigueroa
03-30-2007, 02:46 PM
This group is a little thin on contributors, maybe not enough for a poll, but the ones we have are quite good, so I'll try anyway.

I'm wondering which camp you fall into. Let's call it the "Grady Matthews camp" or the "physicist's camp." In Grady's tape on break shots and key balls, he sets up a regular break shot and says something like, "now use a little outside english on this shot. All the best players do it this way." It is the idea we're all familiar with of trying to minimize throw, avoid skid and just "help" the object ball go in. Rempe says the english keeps the object ball from "turning over." In the other camp the physicists (at least one I know of) say that you shouldn't use any english on a cut shot because it increases the variability in what direction the object ball will take, depending on how much english you use. They propose no english.

Of course sometimes you can't use outside english and make the cue ball do what you need it to, but this poll isn't for those cases.

Any comments? BTW, I don't use english unless I need it for coming off a rail.


I seem to always use a little outside english on side of the stack breaks, though sometimes, if I'm sitting just perfect, I won't.

Lou Figueroa