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JoeW
04-14-2007, 01:40 PM
Under the Favorite Score Sheet some people were talking about portable counters for straight pool. I asked my daughter (who is a pool player) to make something up and here is what she came up with

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q146/JoeW04/BethCounters.jpg

She says that colors and bead styles can be changed. The counters shown here one would cost $25.00 for the set of two. (With a leatherette case $35.00) about $5.00 for shipping. You can order from her by email at bethmoore1203@yahoo.com. This one is about 3/4" X 3/4" X 8" long. It will fit in your pocket or pool case. The yellow beads on the end are for games up to 150. The two counters can be placed side by side and they work just like counters over the table. If you have other ideas she says to post here and she can make other types.

Dan White
04-14-2007, 02:52 PM
It looks kind of neat, but I wonder about two things.

Is it long enough to be able to distinguish between the total score and the rack score? It is hard to tell but it seems there might not be much space to move the beads for rack scores.

The other problem is that if you accidentally bump into it with a can of soda, the score is likely to be messed up. Maybe the beads shouldn't move too easily so that you really have to shake it to cause problems?

Just a thought,
dwhite

pool
04-14-2007, 03:25 PM
I think this is a pretty smart idea. I might be interested in a set. Could there somehow be different colored beads for the 10s instead of the same color every 5? if this is not possible, maybe etching, painting, or searing the value onto every 10th bead would work as well. Similarly the large beads could have 50, 100, 150 imprinted too. As far as the beads sliding too freely, well, if you bump it with a soda can then you just aren't being careful. What if you spilled the soda onto a paper where the score was being kept? I love the idea behind this gadget. It really adheres to one of the traditions of the game.

JoeW
04-14-2007, 03:51 PM
Beth says that she can string them on a thicker wire to increase the bead tension a little. However, knocking the beds around will probably always be a problem because the beads are supposed to slide. Some sort of C clamp could be incorporated to lock it to a table or shelf.

Currently the model is 8.5” long and there is about 2” to move beads around on the wire. It works like the traditional counters for keeping rack scores. I should have set the beads in position a little better before I took the photo. It works well for traditional type of counting if a pencil is used to move the beads.

She is going to check her catalogs tonight and she is 90% sure that she can get a bead that is similar to the numbered tabs on the traditional string and then use press type lettering to place numbers on the counter tabs. However, if we use tabs the thing will have to be about 1" X 1" to accomodate the tab. This will make it a little bulkier for transporting. It is no problem to use a different colored bead for the tens counter.

So, our three hour prototype looks good and she and I will work on it. The goal is to get the model to be like the usual counters on a miniature scale. Of course all of these things require more effort and expense which may drive the price up a little. We are trying to keep it reasonable so that has to be taken into consideration.

Thanks for the feedback. I am not sure that this is worthwhile but the fun is in the doing and we will see what we come up with.

Dan White
04-15-2007, 06:01 PM
As far as the beads sliding too freely, well, if you bump it with a soda can then you just aren't being careful. What if you spilled the soda onto a paper where the score was being kept? I love the idea behind this gadget. It really adheres to one of the traditions of the game.

It's just that beads are always located overhead and bumping them is not an issue. When you reengineer something and move it from the ceiling to a desk you have to think about problems that wouldn't otherwise be possible. If you spill something on pencil, you can still rewrite it. Having a loose moving bead counter on a tabletop is a little like using a wheel type counter where the wheel spins freely. It will be a problem if bumped.

Let's call this the beta version. Feedback in the real world will tell what is a problem and what isn't. Don't get me wrong - I think it is a fun idea and hope it works out great!

dwhite

Dan White
04-15-2007, 06:03 PM
Oh, one more thing just to be a PITA. Aren't beads normally brown for one player and black for the other? How about staining one box black or dark and the other light brown?

dwhite

JoeW
04-15-2007, 07:16 PM
I agree Dan, there is a need for some sort of clamp or extended base. Pin extensions from the base is one way to address this problem. In addition, I have been thinking about a way to latch the two counters side by side. This too will add some stability or wreck the whole count!

Another way to stabilize would be to have a a 1/4" X 6" X 8 1/2" base for the counters. The base could be folded at the 3" mark and fold flat on a table with pin attachments. Then too It might be possible to just attach a 1" hinged plate to the back of each counter board that would fold down as a stabilizer.

Beth and I talked about it tonight and have agreed to emulate the overhead counters as much as possible, perhaps with wooden beads. In any event we are going to try to get the appropriate colors. And she will be checking with her suppliers tomorrow.

Does anyone else have any ideas about how to stabilize the counters?

elvicash
04-15-2007, 07:25 PM
I would make a suggestion

On the counter have 2 strings one with beads and one above with 2 straight pieces which hang down to slightly below the counter string these would flip up and over to keep the current rack count and running counts seperate in case it gets bumped.


----------|-----------|-------------------
oooooo-|-ooooo-|---ooooo---------


Sorry for the quality of the ASCII blue prints :)

Dan White
04-15-2007, 08:54 PM
Does anyone else have any ideas about how to stabilize the counters?

I still think the best way to prevent a wrecked score is to create enough friction so that the beads won't move unless you push them with a pencil or small tool with a little bit of force. The question is whether the friction will decline over time. One way to do it might be to have square beads that are on a wire, but also rest on the wood surface for added friction. They could even rest in the top corner of the counter so that there is contact (friction) on the bottom and back side of the bead. Maybe the wire is positioned so that it actually holds the beads down onto the wood surface???

I can think of some other possibilities, all more difficult to do, but I'd say just to start playing with one, bump it around a bit, and see what you find out.

dwhite

JoeW
04-15-2007, 09:08 PM
Great ideas guys. If we combine elvicash's counter keeper (which is easy to do) with Dan's dragging beads and place both counters on one 3" wide board (in a box) we may have solved the problem.

The nice thing about Elvicash's idea is that one could use the divider or ignore it, if you trusted yourself and your opponent. Placing the whole rig on a wider base says that it will take a drunk to topple the thing. By then a fight will break out and everything will get smashed. Of course anything that could go wrong ...

JoeW
04-17-2007, 09:39 AM
We have a solution and the materials should be available next week. After considering price, effort, size and suggestions here this is what we have come up with.

A wooden box that is 4 X 8 X 2”. It is hinged and when opened lays flat to make an 8” X 8 platform. This should be stable.

Counters will be strung in the box with two rows for counters. There will be two rows for the counter tabs per Elvicash’s suggestion.

A center string that will have five beads on each side and thus allows for a count to 300.

The beads selected are metal (for weight and less careless movement). However, they will be silver and brass to keep the cost down. Five and ten markers will be larger beads with offset colors (like on an overhead string). They will not have numerals as this would require too much effort and make the cost too high. (we could have used plastic counters with numbers on them but they look too much like a child’s toy)

We will include in the box a stylus, the rules for 14.1 and a paper score sheet that I made on another thread (see Balls per inning by Steve Lipsky).

It looks like we can keep the price at $25.00 plus shipping (about $5.00) with a discount for large purchase orders.

It should make a nice gift and I am going to give one to all the guys who join the 14.1 league I am trying to form.

Of course – everything is subject to change and my daughter just might make a few bucks!

BTW the one shown above could be permenently attached in someone's room if anyone wanted one like that. I made it from 3/4 oak corner molding with mahogony stain. It is no big deal to make your own. If I were going to use something like this I would use 8 1/2 X 1" corner molding and get the beads from a craft shop for next to nothing. The end pieces were cut on my table saw from scrap oak. I drilled the four holes in the end pieces and attached with 1/2" finishing nails with the heads cut off. The fourth hole is for the beads.

Williebetmore
04-17-2007, 01:26 PM
It looks like we can keep the price at $25.00 plus shipping (about $5.00) with a discount for large purchase orders.


Joe,
I would definitely like to order one. Let me know where and when and how to send the funds.

Thanks very much for your efforts in putting this together.

JoeW
04-17-2007, 02:15 PM
Thank you Williebetmore. Her web site is

http://www.sunburstselect.com/Beth2/index.htm

There is an order form on the site with her address, etc. You can pay by check, or use paypal per her instructions.

She just told me that she will update her site to include "straight pool counters" in the next day or so.

Model 1 Permanent Counters. It is similar to the one shown above and can be mounted with a couple of screws. It will have matching colors and a 1" frame. ($20.00)

Model 2 Portable Counters as discussed above. ($25.00) I assume this is the one you want.

She won't be able to make them until next week when the materials arrive. I will post a photo here so you might want to wait until then and you can accept her design or select a design that you like.

If you want the no Hassel version just PM me your address and we will bill you and mail one when they are ready.

As the saying goes satisfaction guaranteed. Wait to see the photos before paying.

Williebetmore
04-17-2007, 02:55 PM
She won't be able to make them until next week when the materials arrive. I will post a photo here so you might want to wait until then and you can accept her design or select a design that you like.

If you want the no Hassel version just PM me your address and we will bill you and mail one when they are ready.

As the saying goes satisfaction guaranteed. Wait to see the photos before paying.

Joe,
I'll drop you a PM. I'll take whatever portable counter you guys come up with; whenever you are able.

It would be cool to have it for the "I-70 Straight Pool Challenge" between the Columbus, Ohio league and our Indy league on May 5th (we have to play at a pool hall with no beads or counters of any kind); but there is really no hurry, I still remember how to use pencil and paper.:) :)

JoeW
04-17-2007, 03:12 PM
Assuming the stuff comes in early next week (like it should) she will have them out in a day or two so you should have them easily for the "I-70 Straight Pool Challenge" on Cinco DeMio :o

Donovan
04-18-2007, 05:48 AM
Yes as soon as you have the new pictures, please post them. I will be interested in buying them too!

dmgwalsh
04-19-2007, 07:58 AM
Assuming the stuff comes in early next week (like it should) she will have them out in a day or two so you should have them easily for the "I-70 Straight Pool Challenge" on Cinco DeMio :o


I'd like to get one also.

Last year we had a 14.1 league at ProTyme and there were only two wall counters . we had to do scoring sheets for everyone.

I think they had the World Championship Qualifier at GCue without any counters. pencil and scraps of paper.

Let me know when they are available.

JoeW
04-19-2007, 09:33 AM
I'll try to post something the middle of next week.

jjr183
04-20-2007, 04:35 PM
I have always been looking for a good set of counters since they stopped embedding roll counters in the rail and this definitely sounds like the best idea I have seen.

One problem I foresee using this as described is how to keep track of the rack score when the score goes from say 48 to 55. How would you indicate that the rack count wrapped around to the beginning? I think a better idea would be to have a separate section on each players game count string with 14 beads on it. My ascii art isn't all that great, but here is the best I can do to describe what I am imagining. The v and ^ indicate the blockers that hang from the sides to prevent the score from being corrupted. I don't think you would need them for the 50 ball beads as people always have a general idea of what their score is.

x: 50 count game bead
y: 1 count game bead
z: 1 count rack bead


================================================== ================================
||---v---yyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyY ||--v--zzzzZzzzzZzzzz||
||---------------------------------xxxxx||----------------------------------xxxxx||
||---v---yyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyYyyyyY ||--v--zzzzZzzzzZzzzz||
================================================== ================================


Just a thought. Regardless of what you decide to go with, I definitely want one!!!

JoeW
04-20-2007, 05:52 PM
Nice idea JJR183. However, isn't there always a however, I think that we solved it in another way. We will have two tabs on the back wire, one for the total score and one for the current rack. I realize this doesn't solve the 48-55 problem except by placing the balls after 50 in the next permenant count position. This is how I do it on the overhead string and it seems to work OK. Not perfect but simply "OK." Currently there will be five wires inthe box two for each set of counters and one for the count over 50. There is plenty of room but it could get confusing if we have a bunch of wires inthis thing.

Last I heard the materials haven't arrived yet. They are expected next week. We bought enough for a dozen counters. After that she will take orders and fill when the next shipment arrives. It looks like it will take a few hours to 1/2 day to fill an order when she has the materials.

Hey -- it just occurred to me -- there is no reason that we can't put an extra 14 small beads on each side of the center wire for the 48-55 problem. Thanks, nice idea and I will talk with Beth about including some "extra" beads.

elvicash
04-21-2007, 05:30 PM
Sign me up for a set of these.

Thanks in advance

elvicash

JoeW
04-22-2007, 07:46 AM
OK. Not sure how to do it yet but this thing should say "Designed by AZbilliards straight pool players," made by Beth

Donovan
04-22-2007, 11:37 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=305997&postcount=11

Here is how I solved the current rack count problem with the slider counter....maybe you could do the same thing. You only need 14 beads, as it works for both players at the same time.

BTW, by doing one strand for the current rack it solves the 48 to 55 problem, because you never score the toal score until after the rack is completed. You can really do your beads just like this counter in my picture with the 50 singles & 5 Fifty counter on one string for each person and one string for the current rack. Just three strings! Hope this helps in the design.

Donovan
04-23-2007, 05:41 AM
If you go for the three row idea like I suggested, here are some ideas for longevity of use.

You want the 14 bead row where they are the easiest to get to since they will be used most of the time.

Plus, as I was thinking about all of this, string and even wire will give after a while, I wonder is you can use metal or wooden rods instead. I was thinking of old abacus'. The really old ones didn't last long due to the wires and stings stretching over a long period of time. That is where the tiny wooden rods came in and then eventually they went to metal. In all reality this is an abacus of sorts. It just has a specific purpose.

Regardless what you come up with, I do want 1 maybe even 2.

JoeW
04-23-2007, 09:51 PM
The current price includes the wire base. I know she has some "thicker" wire and I will ask if she can use that. A rod might not fit through the beads and she would probably have to cut threads to place a nut and a false wall in the box. I know that the stuff she uses is pretty tough. All I can do is pass your suggestion along.

JoeW
04-26-2007, 05:20 PM
All of the materials showed up today and Beth is coming out to the house tomorrow, Hopefully we will have something by tomorrow PM.

mnShooter
05-08-2007, 07:55 PM
Just buy one of these http://www.poolndarts.com/p-5939-Antique-Brass-Rail-Score-Counter/ . You can mount it in whatever you can think of.

JoeW
05-09-2007, 12:03 PM
Neat idea and for $20.00 they are less expensive than Beth's Just need some sort of a box or frame.

Dan White
05-09-2007, 03:44 PM
Neat idea and for $20.00 they are less expensive than Beth's Just need some sort of a box or frame.

I was under the impression that people wanted the mini bead scorekeeper rather than the wheel type score counter. If not, I would have thought most pool halls have these wheels in portable boxes. The place I play at occasionally has them.

JoeW
05-09-2007, 06:33 PM
Beth sold six of them so its not a high demand item. They are nice and I think a little on the classey side. I guess its all in what someone wants.

She did tell me that one person had some trouble. Seems that one of the eye screws came out and she is going to fix it as soon as its returned. Otherwise no complaints.

Donovan
05-10-2007, 06:58 AM
Just buy one of these http://www.poolndarts.com/p-5939-Antique-Brass-Rail-Score-Counter/ . You can mount it in whatever you can think of.

mnShooter: Those things are a real pain for straight pool, IMO. Plus you can't keep score as high, and sometimes the wheels will stick together.

I like the "beads in a box" much better!

Joe, I have used mine twice already and I really like it. Tell Beth she rocks! I did stick a little velcro in my box and put some around the pencil, so it won't bang around when carrying it.

THANKS so much for this!!!!

JoeW
05-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Glad you like it Donovan. I will tell her later today.

justnum
05-15-2007, 08:20 PM
Thanks for the idea Ive started working on making one digital.

longhair
05-28-2007, 08:42 AM
I couldn't find this thing on Beth's website, is she still making them?

JoeW
06-13-2007, 08:41 PM
Sorry, I have been gone for a few days. Beth is making the counters. She hasn't updated her web site in a while. Just drop her an email and order one. She will contact you with the necessary info.

She too is gone for a few days. Another of my daughters is pretty sick and we have all been making trips to her house. I expect that she will be back by the end of the week or so.

Bottom line, yes, she makes them but it might take two weeks to get them out just now as she had to re-order the boxes that should be in next week or so.
email bethmoore123@yahoo.com

See the Portable counters are ready thread for the newest version.

JimS
06-14-2007, 05:01 AM
What do they look like now with changes made per the suggestions? Got new pics?

dmgwalsh
06-14-2007, 06:26 AM
What do they look like now with changes made per the suggestions? Got new pics?

Jim: a picture is in this thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=61229

I've got one and will show it to you if you want if you are up this way the end of the month.