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Bob Jewett
04-25-2007, 06:39 PM
Maybe this deserves a thread of its own. Unfortunately, we can't unhijack Steve's thread about how to properly count balls per inning.

Let's start with the main goals of the design:


Allows easy scoring by the players when there is no scorekeeper present.

Allows counts of innings and high runs.
Doesn't use too much paper, but has all info for an inning together.
Shows clearly when a player is on two fouls.
Shows the breaks in racks and allows checking of whether the rack score is right at any point in the match.

I much prefer a system that doesn't have multiple lines per inning. For me, this eliminates the standard European system as far as I understand it.

I think it is essential to have a column for "balls on the table at the start of the inning" because there are no beads to keep the rack right. When it is your turn to shoot, it is easy to mark down the number of balls you are starting with and then jump up to shoot. Your opponent can check your announced "seven balls still up" as he goes to sit down and record his score. This also makes it very easy to review the score sheet for errors.

I think that JoeW's sheet is about right except that as mentioned before, the Penalty column could be removed if the fouls are noted with F in the score box. Thus there are these columns:

Inning Number (common)
(and for each player )
On Table (at start of inning)
Counts (balls pocketed by rack, using the / X notation for long runs)
Score (including counts and penalties)
Total

INN -- OT -- COUNTS..... -- SCORE -- TOTAL -- OT -- COUNTS..... -- SCORE -- TOTAL

As for the number of innings per sheet, I think it has to be small enough to cover most games and large enough that people with poor reading vision still have a shot at writing things down correctly. I think 30 lines is about right. If there are additional sheets used, I think it is better to have an even number of 10's on each sheet.

The sheet also needs the standard blanks for names, date, officials, and signature. Note that the players cannot be filled in until after the lag.

mjantti
04-25-2007, 07:21 PM
I much prefer a system that doesn't have multiple lines per inning. For me, this eliminates the standard European system as far as I understand it.


Seems like you don't understand it. :o The European system speficially has one inning per line as opposed to all other systems which were first introduced in the other thread in which they kept adding new lines/rows for each new rack. :rolleyes:

To me you just described the European system with this:
"Thus there are these columns:
Inning Number (common)
(and for each player )
On Table (at start of inning)
Counts (balls pocketed by rack, using the / X notation for long runs)
Score (including counts and penalties)
Total"

Except that the European system combines the "on table" and "counts" in one column.
European system has columns:
1. inning
2. on table + counts
3. score = run
4. total

pollux
04-25-2007, 07:34 PM
check this one (http://www.biljardforbundet.no/novus/upload/file/Matchprotkoll%2014_1.pdf) out. this is the scoresheet we use in the norwegian tournaments.
it is in norwegian, but it should be fairly easy to understand nevertheless.
in the column to the right we mark balls remaining on the table. when the new rack comes up, we add 14 to the existing number.
a run of 41 balls would typically look like x-x-x-14-28-42-56-15.
it's really a no-brainer...

Scottster
04-25-2007, 07:35 PM
I am going to attempt to attach the score sheet we use for our straight pool league.....

Each block is a rack if a player comes to the table and makes 8 and misses, we mark 8/ to signify the run ended.

If a player fouls, we put an "F" for each foul that occurred during that rack than subract them from that racks total at the end of the rack if a player fouls twice in a row, then makes a good hit next inning it would noted as "FF/" to signify he is no longer on 2 fouls.

Whoever breaks the rack gets a "B" at the top right of the last completed to signify he broke the next rack

mjantti
04-25-2007, 07:43 PM
check this one (http://www.biljardforbundet.no/novus/upload/file/Matchprotkoll%2014_1.pdf) out. this is the scoresheet we use in the norwegian tournaments.
it is in norwegian, but it should be fairly easy to understand nevertheless.
in the column to the right we mark balls remaining on the table. when the new rack comes up, we add 14 to the existing number.
a run of 41 balls would typically look like x-x-x-14-28-42-56-15.
it's really a no-brainer...

Your system is the same that is used all around Europe, although your version is not the understandable one. You didn't tell what/how you mark under the columns +/-. This table thing and adding 14 between racks is the key and unfortunately the Americans don't seem to understand it. (Nothing against the nation here, we were comparing systems between the American and European :) )

Here's the scoresheet I've used in many tournaments including the EPC. So far it seems we are going towards this, but instead of adding 14 to the table we could be adding "/" or "X". At least to me it has almost all the elements Bob described in his first post.

cuetable
04-25-2007, 08:04 PM
Hi Bob:

Here is one I have just drafted using Excel based on the 14+ system. The layout is a little similar to 3 cushion scoresheet.

Here is a brief intro again:

+ Starting of a new rack
S Safety
F-1 Foul, minus 1 pt
F-16+S Foul for the third continuous time, minus 16 pts, new rack, play safety
F-16+F-1 Foul for the third continuous time, minus 16 pts, new rack, foul again, minus 1 pt (note: this is one inning)

Another example:
3+14+3 S The player ran 3, new rack, ran 14, new rack, ran 3 and played safety

One almost impossible example"
3+14+F-16+14+2 The player ran 3, new rack, ran 14, new rack, fouled for the third continuous time on the breakshot, new rack, break and ran 14, new rack, ran 2 and missed

I believe it meets your requirements:

Allows counts of innings and high runs.

Yes, it also marks the offensive innings and also safety innings

Doesn't use too much paper, but has all info for an inning together.

It will keep every thing on one sheet if the game is kept to be within 50 innings. If you are tidy, you can actually put 14+14+14+14+14+14+14+14+14+14+10 into one cell. People can understand this easily without new thing to learn. (Note: I do like Joe's idea but we should save it for the next phase)

Shows clearly when a player is on two fouls.

Yes, if you see "F-1" twice in a roll, the next foul would be F-16+S


Shows the breaks in racks and allows checking of whether the rack score is right at any point in the match.

Yes, all racks are seperated by "+" signs

pollux
04-25-2007, 08:06 PM
Your system is the same that is used all around Europe, although your version is not the understandable one. You didn't tell what/how you mark under the columns +/-. This table thing and adding 14 between racks is the key and unfortunately the Americans don't seem to understand it. (Nothing against the nation here, we were comparing systems between the American and European :) )

Here's the scoresheet I've used in many tournaments including the EPC. So far it seems we are going towards this, but instead of adding 14 to the table we could be adding "/" or "X". At least to me it has almost all the elements Bob described in his first post.
ok, my bad. you know what time it is around here. ;)
under the + we mark the actual run when it's finished. (subtract the last amount of balls from the paenultimate.)
under the - we mark scratches. 1 point deducted for an ordinary foul, two points if the opening shot fails to meet the requirements, or sixteen points if it's the third successive foul or an intentional misconduct.
every inning is marked. safeties are sometimes marked as sf.
anything else worth mentioning? nothing that i can think of. it's bed time after all.

JoeW
04-26-2007, 05:09 AM
I think that Bob has stated the objectives for the score sheet quite clearly. Can we agree on that?

If so lets place a couple of sample sheets with instructions that meet these objectives and then vote for a standard score sheet. In most things done by committee no one like the outcome but everyone agrees it is the best compromise. To do this I suggest two or three versions of the score sheet in a new thread with a poll for the sheets in the thread. When we are ready we can number the sheets as 1,2,3 and then vote for one.

I like Cuetable’s computer software idea for a couple of reasons. Here are are a few suggestions.

1. It would be nice if it kept a data base of players so it could be used for league stats at the end of season.

2. It should also have a practice section for a player to review his own games with notes on any one game. This is fairly easy if the software allows for a dummy name, unlimited (64,000 should do it) games and individual analysis of the available games. An alternate idea here is to allow for multiple data bases (see below)

3.The software might allow for the inclusion of a handicapping system based on some sort of equation or set of rules entered by the operator. The rules might be partially based on variables included in the software. This is easy enough to do with a seperate screen to collect info on the rules to be used for handicapping. A default handicapping system could be included.

4. Because most people do not have a computer in the poolroom the software should print one or more score sheets that can later be used to enter data into the database. Even in a hall the operator would need several sheets if there are simultaneous games

5. A package that allowed for more than one data base and the ability to simultaneously analyze multiple data bases could be useful. Note that one should be able to edit and or combine player names in a batch run.

So if we combine the data sheet and the computer software it becomes an appealing system. The extended idea is to insure that the data sheet and the software are compatible. This of course extends the discussion into what else should be in the software?

It has been a while since I have written any software so I nominate cuetable for the coding privilage:D

While the score sheet might be free I think that Cuetable might make a few bucks here on the software.

cuetable
04-26-2007, 09:36 AM
Maybe this deserves a thread of its own. Unfortunately, we can't unhijack Steve's thread about how to properly count balls per inning.

Let's start with the main goals of the design:


Allows easy scoring by the players when there is no scorekeeper present.

Allows counts of innings and high runs.
Doesn't use too much paper, but has all info for an inning together.
Shows clearly when a player is on two fouls.
Shows the breaks in racks and allows checking of whether the rack score is right at any point in the match.

......


Dear Bob:

Here are some of Steve's ideas which many people are trying to help:

In http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=674255&postcount=3
"In the rare event that you do play an intentional safe by pocketing a ball on your first shot at the table, this would not count towards the BPI. Since the ball is returned to the spot and your opponent comes to the table, this inning would count as a safety-only inning and would not go against your BPI."

In http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=674459&postcount=6
"Any time a player calls a shot, he's counted with an inning. Any time he calls a safe, and it's his first shot of the inning, he's not charged."


I think we should add his idea to the list :

6, Allow clear markings for Safety innings

This will make it easier for people to do data analysis including BPI and possibly many others to come.

cuetable
04-26-2007, 10:01 AM
I think that Bob has stated the objectives for the score sheet quite clearly. Can we agree on that?

If so lets place a couple of sample sheets with instructions that meet these objectives and then vote for a standard score sheet. In most things done by committee no one like the outcome but everyone agrees it is the best compromise. To do this I suggest two or three versions of the score sheet in a new thread with a poll for the sheets in the thread. When we are ready we can number the sheets as 1,2,3 and then vote for one.

I like Cuetable’s computer software idea for a couple of reasons. Here are are a few suggestions.
.....

Dear Joe:

Thanks for the kind words but I don't recall myself mentioning about a "computer scoring software" (at least not in the public yet). However, you did offer many great ideas for a great software product. If there is a demand, I am happy to help on planing and programming.

Perhaps you are referring to this great effort by Imageek2?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=699897&postcount=71



In any case, I like and support the idea you mentioned in defining objectives, getting a couple of designs with instructions and having a public voting mechanism to pick one to use.

Bob Jewett
04-26-2007, 04:59 PM
Seems like you don't understand it. :o ... the European system combines the "on table" and "counts" in one column.
European system has columns:
1. inning
2. on table + counts
3. score = run
4. total
OK, I think I understand it now. And I think it is better than my proposal for the following reason, which maybe wasn't mentioned before. If your score is 66 going to 100 and you begin with five balls on the table, the successive counts are 5/19/33. Suppose you have pocketed all but five balls. When you see the 33, you know that after you make the break ball you will have to get one more ball from the following rack. You don't have to do much calculation. If instead you see "4/" and 10 balls are off the table, you have to do 66+4+14+14 = 98 so the break ball plus one will be needed. I think that is more likely to go wrong.

So, I'm in favor of the European system as explained by Mikko. I think some additional marking needs to be done and it would be good if we agreed on a standard set of marks for the net score column.

$ -- a legal safety was played. This could appear alone or at the end of a score. It is optional to mark it at the end of a scoring inning. (I'm not crazy about $ for safe, but I see no good alternative that is not like a digit.)

F or F-N -- an N-point foul occurred. If N is one, the "-1" is optional. If a score occurred in the inning, it is entered as the valid run then the foul to give an unstated total of one less than the run. If you run 5 and then scratch on the sixth shot, it is 5F or 5F-1 and is scored as 4 points. The number is the number of balls legally pocketed.

$F or $F-N -- a safe was played but it was an N-point foul. This is intended to show that the player was not trying a shot and should not be charged with a scoring inning for the improved kind of BPI recording.

* -- see below for the rest of this score. Also, **, ***. It is possible for the "score" box entry to be arbitrarily long for one inning, depending on how badly the player shoots opening break shots.

Is there anything missing?

JoeW
04-26-2007, 05:18 PM
:eek: Sorry cuetable. I thought it was your post. Looks like imageek's idea so he gets to code if he is willing. Is that an honor :rolleyes: I am not sure after all the coding I have done I would not look forward to gearing up again.:o

Bob Jewett
07-11-2007, 03:57 PM
... The sheet also needs the standard blanks for names, date, officials, and signature. Note that the players cannot be filled in until after the lag.
So what kind of score sheet is being used at the WC right now?

cuetable
07-11-2007, 09:45 PM
So what kind of score sheet is being used at the WC right now?

I guess they are using the same as before. I haven't talked to anyone since a small informal meeting with Steve Lipsky, Danny Barouty, Jude Rosenstock about this two months ago. We all understood both Steve's system and mine now.

Steve also came up with a brilliant idea: using 2 different colored pens to record score. At the end we can count the color changes to come up with innings. Perhaps he can explain it better here.

Perhaps we can all discuss it a little bit more this weekend. Hope to see you soon :)

Caromsoft
07-11-2007, 10:55 PM
:eek: Sorry cuetable. I thought it was your post. Looks like imageek's idea so he gets to code if he is willing. Is that an honor :rolleyes: I am not sure after all the coding I have done I would not look forward to gearing up again.:oI designed a scoresheet to work with my 14.1 scoring program. If you haven't had a chance to look at it it is at:

www.caromsoft.com

The program is under Products, and is free to download.

Tom
(Formerly known as Imageek2) :)