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View Full Version : What would you do with this runout?


Dan White
04-25-2007, 09:35 PM
Hi. I had a nice 63 ball run on my first attempt tonight - was under control most of the time, with no Hail Mary shots! In the third rack, I had a bit of a hairy runout sequence, though not too extreme. There are 6 pages which you can click through on the bottom right corner of the Cue Table.

http://tinyurl.com/2fmpsg

The 3 is the break ball. I played position to get on the 14, and didn't like the look of shooting the 10. It seemed like it was too missable and that the position would have to be forced. Of course getting rid of the 10 might have made things easier later on. I may not have diagrammed this correctly, I can't exactly remember.

In any case, I started with the 14 and had already decided that I was going to shoot the 15 next, and run into the 7/11 cluster to open something up for another shot. This was one of those percentage shots where you have to hope you get something good, and I don't like shooting those. It did seem to me that I would have a shot on one of those three balls in almost any scenario other than getting hooked behind the 11. I shot with enough speed to move the balls more than just nudging them. Things worked out in my favor and I ended up with a side break shot.

What would you have done here, possibly? Shoot into the cluster like I did? Go between the 3 and 7 and shoot the 7 uptable?

Any other general comments?

Thanks,
dwhite

Rod
04-26-2007, 12:21 AM
It looks to me like 14-stop, 10 with low left past the side, 15 come down for 7 then 11 most likely.

I'd have to shoot the 10 soon. It looks like after shooting the 14 its a real good angle from the 10 to come back over for the 15.

The risk factor of getting a good shot on that break out shown is way to high anything can happen. As I see it, there is really nothing to break out. In other words if it ain't broke don't fix it. I only move balls if there is a need and I have a clue where there going. If I shot that as shown I know I'd be in deep doo doo.

Even if the table set up is off a tad I'd still shoot the 10 second with top right. Then the 7 to 15 and 11. I prefer to stay way from testy shots on the key ball. Which most likely will be the 11. Not an ideal key ball but it has to work. BTW I would be playing the 3 to the corner pocket.

Rod

Franky
04-26-2007, 01:47 AM
I must concur.

Dan White
04-26-2007, 06:11 AM
BTW I would be playing the 3 to the corner pocket.

Rod

Thanks. That was the plan. However, I ended up with a shallow angle on the key ball and from pretty far away I had to decide whether to slam it in and pop the cue ball out, or take the "sure thing" and just drift the cue ball down a foot for the side break. The side break was a bit shallow, but I did get through the next rack.

dwhite

Rod
04-26-2007, 07:09 AM
Thanks. That was the plan. However, I ended up with a shallow angle on the key ball and from pretty far away I had to decide whether to slam it in and pop the cue ball out, or take the "sure thing" and just drift the cue ball down a foot for the side break. The side break was a bit shallow, but I did get through the next rack.

dwhite


I would have done the same. Trying to force position on that shot isn't a good idea.

Rod

cuetable
04-26-2007, 07:22 AM
Hi Dan

First of all, I am a B/C player in general.

I have been taught to get rid of problems asap and leave a key ball to position for the break shot. This is what I think given that I have a chicken stroke from playing one pocket:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWGA4JYtJ4Kahg1NGuE1ORlb4PBfa1iGuE1ichp4kB fa1kGEq1kHkS@4CFyO4GWGA4JYtJ4Kahg1Nchr1ORlb1PHTQ4e YtJ4ecIr1kHTQ4kaBs4kbXy4kWxU@4CFyO4GWGA4JcIr4Kahg1 Nchr1ORlb4PWxU4bWGA1bbjm4kWxU4kWGR2kBbU@

SPINDOKTOR
04-26-2007, 07:57 AM
Id shoot the 10, 7 and 14 first

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWfA4JYtI4Kahg1NGuE1ORlb4PBfa4QRKk4RRWa4bW fA1bady4eYtI4eaUm4eadkzc1iGuE2icps2icQt4kBfa4kYkp4 kbXv4kRKjzc4lRKk4lWWQ4lbNu4lRfYzc4mRWa1mIYp@

Then Id finish with the 15, 11. 3
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO1Gbju4JbCs4Kahg2Nbbv1ORlb2PEka2QBfL1RTbr4WF yO4WcIu4WcAr4fahg4fbjx1jRlb1jdff2kEka1kPQd1kPpo1kb Qb1kTbs2lBfL4lETA4lELA3lBrA1mTbr4mahN4mapP4mbGI2mB WK4vELAhjs@


you could also play the 11 like this, depending on your speed control.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO1Gbju4Kahg2Nbbv1OcqD1RTbr4fahg4fati1mTbr4ma hN4mahM3mbFp4mBnM4mBvL1uAxM4vELAhjs@

or like this
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO1Gbju4Kahg2Nbbv1OcqD1RTbr4fahg4fbSt4fbSt1mT br4mahO4mbfu4mMvj3mbNR2mBxT2uBGM@


SPINDOKTOR

Dan White
04-26-2007, 08:23 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'm thinking that the 10 must have been in a bit different position, maybe touching the side rail. I can't remember the exact positions of the 10, 11 and 7 but I do know that it wasn't possible to shoot the 10 from either the current cue ball position or from where the 14 is and still hold the cue ball for a shot on the 7. You would have had to go across table and back, or two rails around. But, nobody could know that but me and the solutions shown look like the best options.

Looking back on this post, I think what I was looking for is GIVEN THAT you MUST shoot the 14 first, and 15 second, how would you go about clearing the rest of the balls?

dwhite

Rod
04-26-2007, 09:42 PM
Well Dan what we're looking at is -- Do I feel Lucky! I could leave a cut on the 7 to the far corner. Might get lucky and end up real good (the key word is might) It looks like that 15 is a bit thin so it could be real testy.

If I was going to run into a ball it would be the 11. I think I'd have more options.

You never know from the table diagram. If any of those balls are moved an inch or so it changes everything. I'd have to be in the situation. I hope not but I'm sure I've seen worst.

Rod

Dan White
04-26-2007, 10:08 PM
You never know from the table diagram. If any of those balls are moved an inch or so it changes everything. I'd have to be in the situation. I hope not but I'm sure I've seen worst.

Rod

See, this is the part of the runout I found interesting, and caused me to post this thread. Maybe I should have started with this. I don't like taking shots where I don't know exactly what the next shot will be, but it seemed to me that cutting the 15 in the corner and coming down into the 7 and 11 wasn't as risky as it might look at first glance. If you really look at the possible outcomes of running into the 7/11 it looks to me like hitting the 11 is best. I would hit the cue ball hard enough to move either ball a good two feet. If you hit the 11 just about anywhere, you will most definitely have a shot on the 10 or 11, if not the 7 in the top side or top right corner. Likewise if you hit the 7 full as in my diagram. The only downside I think is if you get a little unlucky and end up kissing the 11.

Just wondering what guys like Steve and Blackjack (oh, and Lou of course) would think. I suppose if I really wanted to know I'd set this shot up 20 times and see what outcomes I get.

dwhite

mnorwood
04-27-2007, 07:05 AM
What about 10, 15, 7, 11 with the 14 as the keyball. I you could play a stop shot and be perfect for the break. The key shot using this pattern is the position for the 15. The first out mentioned makes sense what do you think of this one?

cuetable
04-27-2007, 08:41 AM
...
Looking back on this post, I think what I was looking for is GIVEN THAT you MUST shoot the 14 first, and 15 second, how would you go about clearing the rest of the balls?


Hi Dan:

In page 5 of your oringinal diagram, would it be an option to position the CB for zone A and shoot the 11 into the other pocket?

For an intermediate player (like myself) it seems to be hard to pocket the 10 with force to have it stop in zone B as shown in pg 1 then pocket the 11 with draw to park the ball in zone C as show in pg 2

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4JYtI4Kahg4POeA4aSim4aKyB4aUDn4aWpC4aTgUza4 eYtI4ecIv1iGtA2iGFS1iDtg1iLbj1iJGOza4kOeA4kYcq4kbH r4kAvh3kbXS1kVam1qMDYGot_a_little_long_on_position _here.&ZZ4rMVBA&ZZ2sFHOB&ZZ@4CFyO4Kahg4QSpX1RDsL4aSim4aKyB4aUDn4aWpC4aTgUza 3dBPs4dEqg1dCtF3dHrH3dDTRza1iGtA2iGFS1iDtg1iLbj1iJ GOza4lSpX4lahv4lbGv3lAhb1mDsL4mahP4mbGO4mAaL3qGlSC&ZZ4rMVBA&ZZ2sFHOB&ZZ@4CFyO4JYtI4Kahg4POeA4eYtI4ebKw4kOeA4kYkr4kbHt4k WYP@4CFyO4Kahg4PWYP4fahg1fatn4kWYP4kapv4kbWx4kQcj@


**I assume initiallyyou want to get the CB in zone C for a standard breakshot. Otherwise I would probably feel more comfortable with a simpler route: shoot the 10 softly and use a little draw on the 11 to get the side pocket break shot (pg 3 & 4). :o

Hal2
04-27-2007, 03:06 PM
What about 10, 15, 7, 11 with the 14 as the keyball. I you could play a stop shot and be perfect for the break. The key shot using this pattern is the position for the 15. The first out mentioned makes sense what do you think of this one?

Mnorwood,
I ditto your choice.

Best Regards,
Hal

Scottster
04-27-2007, 03:42 PM
What about 10, 15, 7, 11 with the 14 as the keyball. I you could play a stop shot and be perfect for the break. The key shot using this pattern is the position for the 15. The first out mentioned makes sense what do you think of this one?


I agree with norwood. That 10 ball has to go its a road block worthy of stopping a mack truck. Even though whitey is getting turned loose a little that 1o and 15 are sitting ugly. I would play the 10 with whitey going 2 rails to the 15 to float up for the 7, the 11 then pop out for the 14 in the upper corner for great position on the 3.

That is what is so great about this game who is to say someone's pattern is "wrong" if it gets the job done.

3andstop
04-27-2007, 04:51 PM
I also would play the 10 15 7 11. In diagram 3 of your layout, that thin cut on the 15 lets the cue ball too loose for my liking.

Dan White
04-27-2007, 08:09 PM
Hi Dan:

In page 5 of your oringinal diagram, would it be an option to position the CB for zone A and shoot the 11 into the other pocket?

In the Cuetable, yes. In the actual situation, you couldn't hold the cue ball in zone A.

For an intermediate player (like myself) it seems to be hard to pocket the 10 with force to have it stop in zone B as shown in pg 1 then pocket the 11 with draw to park the ball in zone C as show in pg 2



The only thing is I would never intentionally set up for a cut shot on the 11 into the far corner pocket. I don't think most players would like this option if there are ways to avoid it.

thanks,
dwhite

Dan White
04-27-2007, 08:12 PM
Well Dan what we're looking at is -- Do I feel Lucky! I could leave a cut on the 7 to the far corner. Might get lucky and end up real good (the key word is might) It looks like that 15 is a bit thin so it could be real testy.

If I was going to run into a ball it would be the 11. I think I'd have more options.

You never know from the table diagram. If any of those balls are moved an inch or so it changes everything. I'd have to be in the situation. I hope not but I'm sure I've seen worst.

Rod

That looks like a fair assessment. I thought hitting the 11 would be best, too, if it could be done. The 15 was such a thin cut (thought not what I would call dangerous) that it was hard to judge better than zone position on the 7 and 11.

dwhite

Dan White
04-27-2007, 08:21 PM
That is what is so great about this game who is to say someone's pattern is "wrong" if it gets the job done.

That's true to a degree, but some patterns give a better chance of success than others, right? Of course people like some shots better than others and that affects what the best pattern is for that person.

Look at this diagram (I moved the 10 a little). Given this situation, what do you do?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWGA4JaBG4Kahg1NGuE1ORlb4PBfa@4CFyO4GWGA4J YtJ4Kahg1NFwC1ORlb4PAYa1iFwC1icIs4kAYa1kExl@4CFyO4 GWGB4JYtJ4Kahg1ORlb1PExn4bWGB4bUEk1jRlb1jcxr1kExn1 kPAX1kPAk4kWNi4kYRm4kYam@4CFyO4GUMl4JYtJ4Kahg4PYRn 4bUMl4bchr4kYRn4kTGW3kIGj3kbAk4kOUy1uBnT@4CFyO4JYt I4Kahg4POeA4eYtI4ecIv4kOeA4kYcq4kbHr4kAvh3kbXS1kVa m1qMDYGot_a_little_long_on_position_here.&ZZ2uBON@4CFyO4Kahg1PVam4fahg4fbjs1kVam4kapN4kaxO4k TWG4kTOH1qHmW&ZZ@

dwhite

Steve Lipsky
04-27-2007, 08:32 PM
That's true to a degree, but some patterns give a better chance of success than others, right? Of course people like some shots better than others and that affects what the best pattern is for that person.

Look at this diagram (I moved the 10 a little). Given this situation, what do you do?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWGA4JaBG4Kahg1NGuE1ORlb4PBfa@4CFyO4GWGA4J YtJ4Kahg1NFwC1ORlb4PAYa1iFwC1icIs4kAYa1kExl@4CFyO4 GWGB4JYtJ4Kahg1ORlb1PExn4bWGB4bUEk1jRlb1jcxr1kExn1 kPAX1kPAk4kWNi4kYRm4kYam@4CFyO4GUMl4JYtJ4Kahg4PYRn 4bUMl4bchr4kYRn4kTGW3kIGj3kbAk4kOUy1uBnT@4CFyO4JYt I4Kahg4POeA4eYtI4ecIv4kOeA4kYcq4kbHr4kAvh3kbXS1kVa m1qMDYGot_a_little_long_on_position_here.&ZZ2uBON@4CFyO4Kahg1PVam4fahg4fbjs1kVam4kapN4kaxO4k TWG4kTOH1qHmW&ZZ@

dwhite

Ah Dan, it appears you have rigged the deck ;). What other reasonable option is there from this position, other than to play the 14, stop, and go into the cluster with the 15?

If you're asking how would I go into the cluster, I'd say to hit with a just-under-medium speed and hit the 11 ball first. But that is what you and everyone else would do too, lol.

I say again... you have rigged the deck, sir :).

- Steve

3andstop
04-27-2007, 08:34 PM
In that layout if the 7 doesn't pass into the lower left corner, I don't know if I'd discount playing the 3 15 14

Dan White
04-27-2007, 08:54 PM
I say again... you have rigged the deck, sir :).

- Steve

Hehe, you noticed! I wanted to get some feedback as to what you would do with the cluster. When I played to go into the cluster, it seemed to me that there were better odds than usual that a second shot would come up.

There is one other option, and I honestly thought some might go this route instead to avoid the uncertainty of just running into the 7/11.

Shoot the 15 to position A and then draw into the 10/11. Of course there is uncertainty there, too, but probably less IF you can get in good position for the 7.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWFy4JaBG4Kahg1ORlb1PGeD4QSIN4bWFy1bcAm1jR lb1jcpo1jcho1kGeD1kPAY1kPAk4kPQf4kSIO4lSIN4lVxQ4lX Mp@4CFyO4GWGA4JYtJ4Kahg1NFwC1ORlb4PAYa1iFwC1icIs4k AYa1kExl@4CFyO4GWGB4JYtJ4Kahg1ORlb1PExn4bWGB4bUEk1 jRlb1jcxr1kExn1kPAX1kPAk4kWNi4kYRm4kYam@4CFyO4GUMl 4JYtJ4Kahg4PYRn4bUMl4bchr4kYRn4kTGW3kIGj3kbAk4kOUy 1uBnT@4CFyO4JYtI4Kahg4POeA4eYtI4ecIv4kOeA4kYcq4kbH r4kAvh3kbXS1kVam1qMDYGot_a_little_long_on_position _here.&ZZ2uBON@4CFyO4Kahg1PVam4fahg4fbjs1kVam4kapN4kaxO4k TWG4kTOH1qHmW&ZZ@

Thanks,
dwhite

Steve Lipsky
04-27-2007, 09:00 PM
Hehe, you noticed! I wanted to get some feedback as to what you would do with the cluster. When I played to go into the cluster, it seemed to me that there were better odds than usual that a second shot would come up.

There is one other option, and I honestly thought some might go this route instead to avoid the uncertainty of just running into the 7/11.

Shoot the 15 to position A and then draw into the 10/11. Of course there is uncertainty there, too, but probably less IF you can get in good position for the 7.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CFyO4GWFy4JaBG4Kahg1ORlb1PGeD4QSIN4bWFy1bcAm1jR lb1jcpo1jcho1kGeD1kPAY1kPAk4kPQf4kSIO4lSIN4lVxQ4lX Mp@4CFyO4GWGA4JYtJ4Kahg1NFwC1ORlb4PAYa1iFwC1icIs4k AYa1kExl@4CFyO4GWGB4JYtJ4Kahg1ORlb1PExn4bWGB4bUEk1 jRlb1jcxr1kExn1kPAX1kPAk4kWNi4kYRm4kYam@4CFyO4GUMl 4JYtJ4Kahg4PYRn4bUMl4bchr4kYRn4kTGW3kIGj3kbAk4kOUy 1uBnT@4CFyO4JYtI4Kahg4POeA4eYtI4ecIv4kOeA4kYcq4kbH r4kAvh3kbXS1kVam1qMDYGot_a_little_long_on_position _here.&ZZ2uBON@4CFyO4Kahg1PVam4fahg4fbjs1kVam4kapN4kaxO4k TWG4kTOH1qHmW&ZZ@

Thanks,
dwhite

Dan, in addition to being a more difficult shot on the 15, I actually think you're less likely to wind up with a second shot going into the cluster from the 7. Going into the cluster with the 15 is preferable in my opinion because it keeps the 7 on the table as an insurance ball.

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
04-27-2007, 09:07 PM
Dan, anytime you're trying to break into a cluster using hard draw (i.e., cueball is basically fully reversing direction), results are usually sketchy. At least this is what I have found...

- Steve

Dan White
04-27-2007, 09:07 PM
Dan, in addition to being a more difficult shot on the 15, I actually think you're less likely to wind up with a second shot going into the cluster from the 7. Going into the cluster with the 15 is preferable in my opinion because it keeps the 7 on the table as an insurance ball.

- Steve

Good point. I thought you could argue that you'd have better chances for another shot by drawing into the 10/11 while shooting the 7. I only say this because you would be very close to the 10/11 and could make a pretty precise carom to kick the 10 out or something. Overall I liked the first option as well because getting on the 7 at the right angle was too iffy for me.

dan

Dan White
04-27-2007, 09:14 PM
Dan, anytime you're trying to break into a cluster using hard draw (i.e., cueball is basically fully reversing direction), results are usually sketchy. At least this is what I have found...

- Steve

Well that's good to keep in mind. Getting guidelines like this from guys who can run lots of balls give me an idea whether I'm on the right track.

Thanks again,
dan

Rod
04-27-2007, 11:48 PM
Dan I'll add since the balls suddenly moved. LOL I was going to mention this option earlier but the balls were sitting to nice. The key word is were.

I'm not opposed to shooting the 14, drawing back for a decent angle on the 3. Shoot your break ball, WHAT? Go across the 10 and 11 and possibly create a new break ball.

Me personally, I don't like the thin cut on the 15. You have to use a little right and its a bit testy for my old eyes. That and sure as hell I hit the point leaving me up you know what creek without a paddle.

I'd rather trust my draw stroke to get me there.

Rod

skipc
04-28-2007, 10:16 AM
i like shooting the 14 first to get the correct angle on the 10. then draw the cue ball back to shoot the 15, back up table to shoot the 7, then the 11. draw off the rail to a perfect break shot.