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Barboxlegend21
05-13-2007, 01:15 PM
5 most Powerful strokes:#1.Mike Massey

#2.Jack Hines

#3.Larry Nevel

#4.Earl Strickland

#5.Cole Dickson

5 prettiest strokes:#1.Rodney Morris

#2.Wade Crane

#3.Louie Roberts

#4.Jimmy Mataya

#5.Willie Mosconi

5 ugliest strokes:#1.Dick Lane

#2.Bushwacker Nolan

#3.Mike Davis

#4.Nick Varner

#5.Steve Moore:eek:

IMHO.Feel free to add your list AZ

Grady
05-13-2007, 01:23 PM
Denny Searcy in both catagories

Mike in MN
05-13-2007, 01:30 PM
How can you mention beautiful strokes and not put Corey Deuel on the list? Blasphemy! Haha, only kidding. I do admire his stroke as well as Cha-Ching Wu's.

Barboxlegend21
05-13-2007, 01:36 PM
How can you mention beautiful strokes and not put Corey Deuel on the list? Blasphemy! Haha, only kidding. I do admire his stroke as well as Cha-Ching Wu's.

As for ugly strokes, I DESPISE the way Tony Ellin strokes. He jumps up after every shot and his follow through is just plain weird. Makes me cringe.

Tony Ellin is no longer with us..show a little class please.:)

rossaroni
05-13-2007, 01:36 PM
Cisero Murphy had a pretty ugly pre shot stroke. I think Freddy mentioned this in his new book. I know Cisero's nephew post here-hope I don't offend him, but his uncles stroke was pretty akward, even though he was an excellent player.

Mystick Cue Fan
05-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Tony Ellin is no longer with us..show a little class please.:)



Some of the names such as Mosconi and the other old timers aren't with us either. The thread just asked who everyone thought has the prettiest and ugliest strokes.

Tony

Barboxlegend21
05-13-2007, 01:40 PM
Denny Searcy in both catagories

Yeah,I've heard about him..but never saw him play.Grady or anyone else that knew him..how great of a player was Searcy?:)

sde
05-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Billiards greatest strokes.

5 most Powerful strokes:
Semih Sayginer
#1.Mike Massey

#2.Jack Hines

#3.Larry Nevel

#4.Earl Strickland

#5.Cole Dickson

5 prettiest strokes:#1.Rodney Morris

#2.Wade Crane

#3.Louie Roberts

#4.Jimmy Mataya

#5.Willie Mosconi

5 ugliest strokes:#1.Dick Lane

#2.Bushwacker Nolan

#3.Mike Davis

#4.Nick Varner

#5.Steve Moore:eek:

IMHO.Feel free to add your list AZ

PKM
05-13-2007, 01:54 PM
You know what would be cool? A video compilation of different strokes showing them at a good angle.

Now someone go make it!

Fatboy
05-13-2007, 01:57 PM
Tony Ellin is no longer with us..show a little class please.:)


He was a helluv a player and getting better when we lost him, RIP, nice guy too first class.


Alan Hopkins dosent have a stroke, but what ever you want to call it, it works real good.

Rodney is just natural, amazing. Tang Hoa same thing.

Mike in MN
05-13-2007, 02:21 PM
Alan Hopkins dosent have a stroke, but what ever you want to call it, it works real good.

I agree. I don't like the way Allen Hopkins sort of pokes at the ball. He has good follow through.


Another stroke that is a weird one is Francisco Bustamante's. I just hate how his pendulum is all over the place and he is constantly raising and lowering his cue butt when doing his practice strokes. I guess it's even more of a testament to him being a fantastic player though.

ironman
05-13-2007, 02:31 PM
5 most Powerful strokes:#1.Mike Massey

#2.Jack Hines

#3.Larry Nevel

#4.Earl Strickland

#5.Cole Dickson

5 prettiest strokes:#1.Rodney Morris

#2.Wade Crane

#3.Louie Roberts

#4.Jimmy Mataya

#5.Willie Mosconi

5 ugliest strokes:#1.Dick Lane

#2.Bushwacker Nolan

#3.Mike Davis

#4.Nick Varner

#5.Steve Moore:eek:

IMHO.Feel free to add your list AZ

The Hillbilly has a pretty powerful stroke himself.

mjantti
05-13-2007, 02:34 PM
I liked Steve Mizerak's stroke, smooth as silk.

Fatboy
05-13-2007, 02:43 PM
Some of the names such as Mosconi and the other old timers aren't with us either. The thread just asked who everyone thought has the prettiest and ugliest strokes.

Tony


i understand your point but Tony was young and left a family the old time guys were old, Tony hadnt even reached his peak. its a sore spot because some players here knew him, or in my case spoke to him many times as an aquantience only. no worries. He was a great guy and it was tragic how he passed, thats why its a sore spot. nobody should get upset, lets all let it slide in Tonys honor.

Blackjack
05-13-2007, 03:12 PM
Tony knew he had an ugly stroke and ugly mechanics, but he was able to get out more than his opponents - and frankly that was all that mattered to him. IMO, Tony had the most brutal break in the history of pool, making 2-3 balls consistently and running out from anywhere. Tony was a very, very good friend of mine, I doubt that he would have been upset about any of the criticism. That's just how Tony played and it worked well for him - no excuses, no explanations, just pay the man when he's done, shake his hand and be on your way - lol. I would have never started writing or teaching about pool if it were not for Tony's encouragement. "That's a great idea, Dave! Man... you should write some of this stuff down. You should write a book." Tony said that to me about a hundred times before I finally took his advice and started typing.

I spent a lot of time with Cisero Murphy. He was my mentor. Cisero's mechanics might not have been picture perfect, but it worked for him. Cisero had perfect mastery of the cue ball and when playing straight pool he could manipulate balls out of the pack like he was possessed by the devil. His safety play was superb in all games due to the fact that he commanded that rock - it was like the balls, the table, and the cue ball had the utmost respect for Cisero. He was a joy to watch play the game.

Cisero's stroke was a side-armed sort of "J" shaped action that was hideous to see, but the balls went into the pockets like he wanted them to. Cisero had possibly the greatest mind of any pool player I have met before or since. 99% of the information I have passed along over the years come directly from the teachings I personally received from Cisero Murphy. He is in my opinion, undoubtedly the greatest pool player of my lifetime. Your opinion may differ, but he was and always will be my role model.

As far as ugly strokes go, I'd have to affectionately place the late Norbert Lang in that category as well. He had the Willie Hoppe side-arm stroke - but he was also a joy to watch play the game. He and Tony were taken from us way to soon.

Barboxlegend21
05-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Tony knew he had an ugly stroke and ugly mechanics, but he was able to get out more than his opponents - and frankly that was all that mattered to him. IMO, Tony had the most brutal break in the history of pool, making 2-3 balls consistently and running out from anywhere. Tony was a very, very good friend of mine, I doubt that he would have been upset about any of the criticism. That's just how Tony played and it worked well for him - no excuses, no explanations, just pay the man when he's done, shake his hand and be on your way - lol. I would have never started writing or teaching about pool if it were not for Tony's encouragement. "That's a great idea, Dave! Man... you should write some of this stuff down. You should write a book." Tony said that to me about a hundred times before I finally took his advice and started typing.

I spent a lot of time with Cisero Murphy. He was my mentor. Cisero's mechanics might not have been picture perfect, but it worked for him. Cisero had perfect mastery of the cue ball and when playing straight pool he could manipulate balls out of the pack like he was possessed by the devil. His safety play was superb in all games due to the fact that he commanded that rock - it was like the balls, the table, and the cue ball had the utmost respect for Cisero. He was a joy to watch play the game.

Cisero's stroke was a side-armed sort of "J" shaped action that was hideous to see, but the balls went into the pockets like he wanted them to. Cisero had possibly the greatest mind of any pool player I have met before or since. 99% of the information I have passed along over the years come directly from the teachings I personally received from Cisero Murphy. He is in my opinion, undoubtedly the greatest pool player of my lifetime. Your opinion may differ, but he was and always will be my role model.

As far as ugly strokes go, I'd have to affectionately place the late Norbert Lang in that category as well. He had the Willie Hoppe side-arm stroke - but he was also a joy to watch play the game. He and Tony were taken from us way to soon.

Blackjack,did Cisero gamble? I know he was an awesome straight pool player but I never seen nor heard of anyone matching up with him..just tournaments and exhibitions.

Mike in MN
05-13-2007, 03:42 PM
Tony knew he had an ugly stroke and ugly mechanics, but he was able to get out more than his opponents - and frankly that was all that mattered to him. IMO, Tony had the most brutal break in the history of pool, making 2-3 balls consistently and running out from anywhere. Tony was a very, very good friend of mine, I doubt that he would have been upset about any of the criticism. That's just how Tony played and it worked well for him - no excuses, no explanations, just pay the man when he's done, shake his hand and be on your way - lol.

Thanks Blackjack, I kind of needed that. After I posted, I remembered that Tony was taken from us back in 2000 (?) and I immediately felt bad. I removed that part of my post out of respect for him because, you're right, the man was one HELL of a player. I loved his break. They didn't call him the Hurricane for nothin'!

After reading what you wrote, I now feel better about the whole situation. I just don't want anyone thinking I was out to speak ill of the deceased.

1-pocket-player
05-13-2007, 03:50 PM
I think Mark Tadd belongs on the list for powerful strokes. I am referring to when Mark was in his prime.


-Andy

selftaut
05-13-2007, 03:51 PM
Blackjack,did Cisero gamble? I know he was an awesome straight pool player but I never seen nor heard of anyone matching up with him..just tournaments and exhibitions.

Cisero did gamble , and he didn't pick on lightwieghts either , he matched up with Luther Lassiter AT luthers pool hall for a game of 1,500 14.1 , and beat him , running over 200 a couple times. (quoting Freddy the Beard on this)

Fatboy
05-13-2007, 05:18 PM
Tony knew he had an ugly stroke and ugly mechanics, but he was able to get out more than his opponents - and frankly that was all that mattered to him. IMO, Tony had the most brutal break in the history of pool, making 2-3 balls consistently and running out from anywhere. Tony was a very, very good friend of mine, I doubt that he would have been upset about any of the criticism. That's just how Tony played and it worked well for him - no excuses, no explanations, just pay the man when he's done, shake his hand and be on your way - lol. I would have never started writing or teaching about pool if it were not for Tony's encouragement. "That's a great idea, Dave! Man... you should write some of this stuff down. You should write a book." Tony said that to me about a hundred times before I finally took his advice and started typing.

I spent a lot of time with Cisero Murphy. He was my mentor. Cisero's mechanics might not have been picture perfect, but it worked for him. Cisero had perfect mastery of the cue ball and when playing straight pool he could manipulate balls out of the pack like he was possessed by the devil. His safety play was superb in all games due to the fact that he commanded that rock - it was like the balls, the table, and the cue ball had the utmost respect for Cisero. He was a joy to watch play the game.

Cisero's stroke was a side-armed sort of "J" shaped action that was hideous to see, but the balls went into the pockets like he wanted them to. Cisero had possibly the greatest mind of any pool player I have met before or since. 99% of the information I have passed along over the years come directly from the teachings I personally received from Cisero Murphy. He is in my opinion, undoubtedly the greatest pool player of my lifetime. Your opinion may differ, but he was and always will be my role model.

As far as ugly strokes go, I'd have to affectionately place the late Norbert Lang in that category as well. He had the Willie Hoppe side-arm stroke - but he was also a joy to watch play the game. He and Tony were taken from us way to soon.


Great post, thanks for sharing the stories. best post I've seen in along time

sjm
05-13-2007, 05:57 PM
Based on your list, you're looking for top 5 ever in each category. I can't comment on anybody pre-1965, and my choices will reflect it.

5 most Powerful strokes:1.Mike Massey 2. Earl Strickland 3.Larry Nevel 4. Corey Deuel, 5. Tony Ellin

5 prettiest strokes: 1. in a landslide, Steve Mizerak, 2. Jack Colavita, 3. Buddy Hall, 4. Mika Immonen, 5. Ralf Souquet

5 ugliest strokes: 1. Allen Hopkins, 2. Mike Davis, 3,4,5 ???

JoeyInCali
05-13-2007, 06:33 PM
Prettiest, Buddy Hall, Kim Davenport and Choo Choo Coltrain before he got sick. He had a stroke you'd kill for.

mnorwood
05-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Lassiter should be in the ugly category.:eek:

jay helfert
05-13-2007, 06:58 PM
The most powerful strokes had to be from the era of slow (Stevens) cloth. For that reason I'm very surprised this guy hasn't been mentioned. CORNBREAD RED! He would pump it like a machine gun and let it loose and balls would explode everywhere. His stroke was all controlled power. He had a cannon for an arm. SCARY!

Of course Mike Massey is a modern day freak. He is by far the most powerful man ever to play pool. They didn't call him the Tennessee Tarzan for nothing. In his day all the arm wrestling bandits would duck him.

And the most beautiful strokes occured in this era also. Number one and it isn't close is MARVIN HENDERSON. If you ever saw him play, you would never forget the sheer beauty of his stroke. It was like watching a pianist perform. Second was Ed Kelly who also had the sweetest swing you ever saw. I loved watching him play. It was like ballet on a pool table.

Now combine the two (most powerful and most beautiful) and you have the MIZ!!! He had the alltime stroke, it looked great and the cue ball was at his mercy. Miz may have had the best pure stroke and way of going thru the ball of anyone ever. Buddy is second in this department. Buddy always made the purest hit on the cue ball, time after time.

Honorable mention must go to Harold Worst. His stroke wasn't that pretty, in fact it was quite compact, but he could make the cue ball stand up and sing. Kind of like Allen Hopkins on steroids.

Nicest slip stroke belonged to Jimmy Moore. Poetry in motion is the best description.

Ugly strokes, let's see. Greg Fix comes to mind. Keith's side arm delivery fooled many a prospect. Allen's punch is like a little jab. But the uglest I ever saw was Archie the Greek's. Not a good player, just the highest gambler ever. His "stroke" was a combination of a lunge and a thrust. All in all it always looked like he hit it at the wrong time. It was the perfect stroke for bar room hustles, which was his pool forte.

Fatboy
05-13-2007, 07:26 PM
Archey sucks, I tell you the whole story, before he made his score at the Rum Runner, I have it in my head and on my Moms Grave on Mothers Day I know the whole thing, details and nothing left to guess 100% factual information for your book(s) Jay should you want to use it.

too many typo's tonight I'm off to bed, I miss my mom more than anything ever, Happy mothers day Mom, 2/27-3/05, i'll never be the same, if you have a mom call her and send flowers because when you cant it hurts like hell and then some. now back to pool sorry but Mom gets some recognition here, thanks gentalman.

PoolBum
05-13-2007, 08:24 PM
5 ugliest strokes:

#4.Nick Varner



I don't get this. Varner has a kind of hitch in his delivery, but it is quite smooth and very pure.

Mizerak had the prettiest stroke I've ever seen.

jeff olney
05-13-2007, 08:38 PM
Strong strokes Semih Sayginer and Mike Massey. smooth Jay Swanson and Miz. Mike Massey came to San Diego around 1980 and did a show, his power strokes shots were amazing. jeff olney

Frankenstroke
05-13-2007, 08:39 PM
My favorite stroker was Jack White. What Mike Massey does with raw power, Jack did with timing and smoothness.

huckster
05-13-2007, 08:51 PM
strongest strokes.

1. Saygnir (the first poster who mentioned him is 100% correct, watch his exhibition video on Carom cafe unbelievable)

2. Jack Hynes (after watching Mike Massey draw his rock up and down the table Jack {in only a way Jack could challenged him to the stroke shot} Mike does not gamble though)

3. Mike Massey (some of his shots can not be duplicated in artistic pool competitions)

4. Cornbread Red (Fired balls in with that slip stroke)

5. Chris Szuter (Pump handle goofy looking but he can move whitey0

Deadon
05-14-2007, 12:26 AM
Denny Searcy in both catagories

Gotta double that and, (Jay) IMHO, Cole had the smoothest slip stroke I ever have ever seen.

Mike

Fatboy
05-14-2007, 05:07 AM
Miz and Ed Kelly were something special,

buddy hall(who is one of my favorite players) stroke looks ok-what makes him look so good is his CB control, if you just look at him and not the rock his stroke dosent compair to Ed Kelly or Miz. If you look at everything, stroke, balls etc then he looks better, to me anyways. But thats not to say he dosent have a great stroke, just not like the guys above.

i still havent figured out how alan hopkins does it,

Keith is fun to watch, i love the way he floats around the box.

Voodoo Daddy
05-14-2007, 08:07 AM
Now combine the two (most powerful and most beautiful) and you have the MIZ!!! He had the alltime stroke, it looked great and the cue ball was at his mercy. Miz may have had the best pure stroke and way of going thru the ball of anyone ever. Buddy is second in this department. Buddy always made the purest hit on the cue ball, time after time.

Thank you Jay, saved me alot of typing :D. Honorable mention for smooth stroke goes to {IMO} Toby Sweet, not a household name unless your house flew under the radar...flawless.

BillYards
05-14-2007, 09:00 AM
I could never stand watching Mike Lebron play. I had to hide my eyes for fear that I would emulate some of his movements when I went to play later...

I really like the mechanics of Danny Harriman and Dennis Hatch.

But The Miz and Tony Watson have the best strokes for a guy to watch before you go to play...

Cicero had a pokey stroke, but if you watch the videos of him, you can see that stroke is an integral part of his concentration. Each shot is the entire game to him. He focussed completely on that shot and it has a definate starting and completion point. He is the best example of focus I have ever seen. He was methodical to the point of almost looking like he did not know what he was doing... until you saw balls evaporating off the table.

tjlmbklr
05-14-2007, 09:05 AM
5 ugliest strokes:#1.Dick Lane

#2.Bushwacker Nolan

#3.Mike Davis

#4.Nick Varner

#5.Steve Moore:eek:




You forgot Keith McCready, looks like he's throwing a side arm fast ball!

catscradle
05-14-2007, 09:08 AM
How can you mention beautiful strokes and not put Corey Deuel on the list?

I agree about Corey Duell but I would put #1 for beautiful strokes I have seen Buddy Hall... smooth as butter.

catscradle
05-14-2007, 09:16 AM
Denny Searcy in both catagories

Grady, unfortunately I have not really had the oppourtunity to see you play. In all candor where would you rate your own stroke.

Please people, if Grady is so kind as to give an honest appraisal of his own stroke (be that appraisal good or bad), do not jump all over him. Just let him speak and leave it at that.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Gotta double that and, (Jay) IMHO, Cole had the smoothest slip stroke I ever have ever seen.

Mike

Cole also had a super powerful stroke. Thanks for reminding me. He was close to Cornbread when it came to hi-octane stroking.

Denny's stroke was more finesse and smoothness. He caressed the cue ball like no one ever, except maybe Marvin and Kelly.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 10:39 AM
I think Mark Tadd belongs on the list for powerful strokes. I am referring to when Mark was in his prime.


-Andy

Mark's stroke looked like all brute strength.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 10:42 AM
Thank you Jay, saved me alot of typing :D. Honorable mention for smooth stroke goes to {IMO} Toby Sweet, not a household name unless your house flew under the radar...flawless.

Of course I knew Toby (still do haha). He had what I would call a very efficient stroke. Very clean and precise. A great gambler too by the way. He has many, many scalps.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 10:49 AM
I could never stand watching Mike Lebron play. I had to hide my eyes for fear that I would emulate some of his movements when I went to play later...

I really like the mechanics of Danny Harriman and Dennis Hatch.

But The Miz and Tony Watson have the best strokes for a guy to watch before you go to play...

Cicero had a pokey stroke, but if you watch the videos of him, you can see that stroke is an integral part of his concentration. Each shot is the entire game to him. He focussed completely on that shot and it has a definate starting and completion point. He is the best example of focus I have ever seen. He was methodical to the point of almost looking like he did not know what he was doing... until you saw balls evaporating off the table.


Cisero had the All Time strangest stroke ever! His arm went in three different directions going back, and that ain't the half of it. When he reached the top of his back swing, he hesitated for about a full second, cocked his arm, and only then went down thru the cue ball. The amazing thing is that it worked! He made it work.

Grady's stroke was nothing to write home about either. He was a little scrunched up, but he could deliver a powerful swing. His cue was nice and level, I will say that. And he always made a good hit. I don't think Grady ever miscued in his life. Kind of like Buddy that way.

bigskyjake
05-14-2007, 11:19 AM
Cole also had a super powerful stroke. Thanks for reminding me. He was close to Cornbread when it came to hi-octane stroking.


not had, he still has a very powerful stroke, sure his game has fallen off some over the years but he's still got some thunda

Andrew Manning
05-14-2007, 11:52 AM
On my list the Vietnamese player Luong would be up near the top of ugly strokes, along with McCready, and Mike Davis. Bustamante might get honorable mention.

I'd have to add a mention for Mike Sigel in the prettiest category. He has such a perfect pendulum, perfectly aligned, with such a simple back-and-forth lower arm swing, with the elbow staying steady as a ROCK at least until the end of the follow-through. Watching the first shot of his famous 150-and-out (a 9'+ slight cut into the corner at speed, breaking the pack to start the 150 run) on youtube made me decide I needed to build a better stroke for myself that was as simple and effortless as his.

-Andrew

JAM
05-14-2007, 12:03 PM
Prettiest strokes ever -- Buddy Hall, Miz, Cole Dixon, Luther Lassiter, Ed Kelly. JMSO's O, of course. :p

JAM

selftaut
05-14-2007, 12:13 PM
how about David Howard , man he could smack the rack!

dardusm
05-14-2007, 12:31 PM
A player that I really enjoyed watching was George Brundt. His stroke was so smooth.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 12:41 PM
how about David Howard , man he could smack the rack!

One of the hardest breaks ever. He attributed it to his karate background.

jay helfert
05-14-2007, 12:43 PM
A player that I really enjoyed watching was George Brundt. His stroke was so smooth.

George had a beautiful game. May he rest in peace. He was another great guy, with a nice dry sense of humor. And a VERY successful Pot Limit (high stakes) poker player. He just got way too fat.

crawfish
05-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Prettiest, Buddy Hall, Kim Davenport and Choo Choo Coltrain before he got sick. He had a stroke you'd kill for.Do you mean Mike Coltrain? It looked just like Johnny's.

TWOFORPOOL
05-14-2007, 01:05 PM
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Jay "Swanee" Swanson. He could draw the ball back with 1/2 the effort anybody else could. His stroke was also the most beautifull one I have ever seen.

I thnk Jay Helfert will agree with this!

viva
05-15-2007, 02:56 AM
Jackie Gleeson has a realy pretty stroke! dont you guys agree?

Earl Stricklands stroke, so powerful and confident, so pretty to watch.

pagulayan, so precise, love that long bridge.

Reyes & Django, classic filipino strokes, rythmic, flowery, fluid and flamboyant, millions of people around the world have tried to copy these strokes atleast once in their lives. Not to mention Bustamantes break style, probably the most copied in the world!

All of these guys make the game look so rythematic, like federers backhand or tigers swing, they make it look good.

Fatboy
05-15-2007, 03:07 AM
Prettiest strokes ever -- Buddy Hall, Miz, Cole Dixon, Luther Lassiter, Ed Kelly. JMSO's O, of course. :p

JAM

Keith dosent have the prettist stroke, but the way he floats around the table when he is in gear is amazing he the whole package, 2 nd to none. He is so fluid when he is playing runout 9B for example, in contrast Danny Harriman resets for each shot. Where keith makes his inning in one smooth move(like an ice skater) and poof all the balls are gone, his head dosent move-he did it great in the movie too. it aint easy to do either and looks so cool, i have to re-set for every shot. I love to watch Keith play more than most of the top pro's when he is in gear.

Fatboy
05-15-2007, 03:13 AM
Jackie Gleeson has a realy pretty stroke! dont you guys agree?

Earl Stricklands stroke, so powerful and confident, so pretty to watch.



yes I have seen him on other shows hit the ball and it is nice, Or I should say "How Sweet it Is" for a big man, he stands upright a bit, i often wondered just how good he really played? JAY?

and yes when Earl is "playing pool" and 2 stroking everything it looks effortless, he almost floats around the table like Keith but not quite as smooth- he too is one of my favorite pros to watch when he is in control of himself-I feel bad for him when he loses it, its a chemical imbalance i'm sure of it, thus I dont blame him.

gulfportdoc
05-15-2007, 06:38 AM
Keith dosent have the prettist stroke, but the way he floats around the table when he is in gear is amazing he the whole package, 2 nd to none. He is so fluid when he is playing runout 9B for example...
I think the beauty of Keith's stroke is his follow through. He takes a very short backstroke, but then pushes right through the cueball. Tommy Kennedy has similar stroke mechanics. I've tried to emulate that type of stroke, and when it works, it seems to make shooting effortless. All the effort goes into the "push through", almost like a dart player.

Another mechanically perfect stroke is George San Souci's. I was sitting with Hal Mix out at the Reno Open in the late 90's, and I asked him who had the best stroke. He said in his opinion is was San Souci's. I don't know if Ginky plays anymore, but he had a lovely stroke.

My all time favorite? "The Rifleman", Buddy Hall.

Doc

Blackjack
05-15-2007, 06:46 AM
What about Jeff Carter? He is the most fundamentally sound player I have ever seen.

I have always admired Jim Rempe's stroke. It's not so much what it looks like, its the magic that it creates.

VIProfessor
05-15-2007, 06:55 AM
I think the beauty of Keith's stroke is his follow through. He takes a very short backstroke, but then pushes right through the cueball. Tommy Kennedy has similar stroke mechanics. I've tried to emulate that type of stroke, and when it works, it seems to make shooting effortless. All the effort goes into the "push through", almost like a dart player.

Another mechanically perfect stroke is George San Souci's. I was sitting with Hal Mix out at the Reno Open in the late 90's, and I asked him who had the best stroke. He said in his opinion is was San Souci's. I don't know if Ginky plays anymore, but he had a lovely stroke.

My all time favorite? "The Rifleman", Buddy Hall.

Doc

I just started reading this thread, and I was looking to see if anyone mentioned the Ginkster. Watching him practice was just a constant delight for me. His stroke was silkly smooth, precise and confident, and his speed control was simply magical. If he gets everything together he'll once again be a force to be reckoned with.

MrLucky
05-15-2007, 06:58 AM
Cisero Murphy had a pretty ugly pre shot stroke. I think Freddy mentioned this in his new book. I know Cisero's nephew post here-hope I don't offend him, but his uncles stroke was pretty akward, even though he was an excellent player.
I having been originally taught to play by him, I recently had a lesson with Scott Lee and my stroke was his biggest criticism and his tips have helped me tremendously so as much as I would like to, I really can't disagree. :confused:

JAM
05-15-2007, 07:01 AM
Keith dosent have the prettist stroke, but the way he floats around the table when he is in gear is amazing he the whole package, 2 nd to none. He is so fluid when he is playing runout 9B for example, in contrast Danny Harriman resets for each shot. Where keith makes his inning in one smooth move(like an ice skater) and poof all the balls are gone, his head dosent move-he did it great in the movie too. it aint easy to do either and looks so cool, i have to re-set for every shot. I love to watch Keith play more than most of the top pro's when he is in gear.

Keith does have an unorthodox side-armed stroke, distinctive to players like Irving Crane. His "double-fulcrum" is also unique. Efren's got the "double fulcrum" style in his stroke, but not every good pool player has the double fulcrum.

Allen Hopkin's short punch stroke is amazing. Like Keith, he began playing pool at a young age. At 7 years old, after watching many tournaments on television, Allen began to play pool on a small table his parents bought for him. As an amateur at the age of 12, Hopkins ran 110 balls. At 17, he came in fifth at the U.S. Open, and later ended up winning the U.S. Open twice.

If you ever see Keith floating around the table, he is unstoppable. When I see this happen, I usually don't worry about the outcome of the match. It's what I call "rhythm." Keith is a rhythm player.

JAM

JAM
05-15-2007, 07:04 AM
I think the beauty of Keith's stroke is his follow through. He takes a very short backstroke, but then pushes right through the cueball....

Keith does execute excellent followthrough with one glaring exception, and that is his break. I wish he would figure out how to incorporate that followthrough in his break because it would improve his nine-ball game immensely.

JAM

MrLucky
05-15-2007, 07:04 AM
Blackjack,did Cisero gamble? I know he was an awesome straight pool player but I never seen nor heard of anyone matching up with him..just tournaments and exhibitions.
made his living as a money player, he wasn't until later in his career allowed into most of the money (at that time White only) tournaments. :(

Blackjack
05-15-2007, 07:58 AM
made his living as a money player, he wasn't until later in his career allowed into most of the money (at that time White only) tournaments. :(

Thanks Phil, I was going to delve there, but I waited for you to mention that fact first. Cisero was probably the most feared money player in NYC for most of the 1950's and 1960's. He never backed down from any challenge. Mosconi absolutely refused to play Cisero Murphy under any circumstances, and it was not because he was black, it was because Mosconi knew that Cisero had the ability to beat him.

Unable to play in tournaments, and sometimes not allowed into most pool halls, Cisero Murphy survived day to day by playing in some of the roughest places that you could imagine for the highest and lowest of stakes. There wasn't always a lot of money out there for him to play for. He told me that he would play this one guy for S&H green stamps. lol - that's a true story.

I will always believe that "the powers that were" kept him out of the World Championships because they knew he was going to beat everybody and beat them bad. When they finally let him play, Cisero just proved to everybody what he already knew and believed in his heart: That he was the best.

jrhendy
05-15-2007, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE=gulfportdoc]
I was sitting with Hal Mix out at the Reno Open in the late 90's, and I asked him who had the best stroke. He said in his opinion is was San Souci's.
(/QUOTE]

I was sitting with Hal at a Reno tournament watching Jimmy Wetch play, and he was just drilling whoever he was playing. Hal mentioned to me he didn't like the stance he used which copied players like Jim Rempe. Wetch won his match and came over and asked Hal what he thought. Hal told him he played very well, but he did not like his stance. "What is wrong with it, said Jimmy". "Well, It's ok if your trying to take a leak and not get any on your shoes, but it's no good for pool, said Hal". Hal was a great teacher and coach and many players looked to him for advice, but he wouldn't pull any punches when someone asked his opinion. John Henderson

JoeyInCali
05-15-2007, 08:51 AM
Do you mean Mike Coltrain? It looked just like Johnny's.
Yes, but Mike had a little loop in his stroke.

freddy the beard
05-15-2007, 08:53 AM
Powerful stroke?

Johnston City IL, middle 60s. U.J. Puckett had for years dazzled the crowd with his specialty shot, a five rail draw with the cue ball at least 5 diamonds away from the object ball. I could diagram the shot, but that's not the point of this discourse. Harold Worst watched Puck do the shot and then asked him if he could try it. Worst got down on the shot and got seven rails on the first try! Puckett never showed that shot at Johnston City again. I seen that with my own eyeballs. There was no stroke shot that Worst couldnt execute.

the Beard

crawfish
05-15-2007, 09:24 AM
Yes, but Mike had a little loop in his stroke.I'm sure Mike would thank you for your comment. He was like my little cousin for quite a while. I would stir up quite some kind of action when he was about 16-19. He would be in shorts, flip-flops, and wearing beads. I would try to get down, and then offer the guy to give my "little cousin" some weight. Got quite a few of'em with that run-down. That kid just "saw it." Know what I mean. Good mechanics. His father used to rack the balls over and over again for him.

SlickRick_PCS
05-15-2007, 09:30 AM
Top five of the most powerful strokes...

1) Semih Sagyner 2) Mike Massey 3) Efren Reyes 4)Earl Strickland 5) Russian Billiard players! (Focusing on Evgeny Stalev)

Top 5 Most beautiful stroke category...

1) Jasmin Ouschan 2) Allison Fisher 3) Thorsten Hohmann 4) (Tie) Raymond Ceulemans and Torbjorn Blomdahl 5) snooker players! (Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Davis on the lead)

Top 5 of the worst stroke....

1) Allen Hopkins 2) Corey Deuel 3) Chao Fong Pang 4) myself **and last but not least** 5) the POOL MASTER!! lol

gulfportdoc
05-15-2007, 05:52 PM
Keith does execute excellent followthrough with one glaring exception, and that is his break. I wish he would figure out how to incorporate that followthrough in his break because it would improve his nine-ball game immensely.

JAM
I often wondered about that, Jennie. I've played Keith, and I've seen him play top players, but he never breaks hard. I just assumed he traded power for accuracy. I wouldn't imagine there was any reason Keith couldn't swing harder if he wanted to. I don't think it's his lack of follow-through, but rather a decision not to use a power generating stroke. Perhaps his sidearm setup does not lend itself to power generation; although Medina breaks almost sidearm (like I right cross puch in boxing), and few break harder than he.

Doc

JoeyInCali
05-15-2007, 06:06 PM
I'm sure Mike would thank you for your comment. He was like my little cousin for quite a while. I would stir up quite some kind of action when he was about 16-19. He would be in shorts, flip-flops, and wearing beads. I would try to get down, and then offer the guy to give my "little cousin" some weight. Got quite a few of'em with that run-down. That kid just "saw it." Know what I mean. Good mechanics. His father used to rack the balls over and over again for him.
Mike used to come in at Hard Times with those long shorts and flip-flops but everyone knew who he was. Luat gave him the 7-ball a few times and Mike robbed Luat. He was running out better than Luat.
Saw Mike go to the final 4 at the world 8-ball in Riviera but lost to Bustamante. Busta did not miss more than 2 balls that Sunday against Mike, Wetch and Archer.
Did Mike ever marry his very pretty gf? She was very pretty and very nice and came with Mike during his short stint here in LA.
Sorry to hear Mike to quit b/c of his shaking. I never saw anyone hit balls as softly as he did.

Fatboy
05-15-2007, 06:14 PM
If you ever see Keith floating around the table, he is unstoppable. When I see this happen, I usually don't worry about the outcome of the match. It's what I call "rhythm." Keith is a rhythm player.

JAM

Thats exactly what i'm talking about, the times I have seen Keith lose is when he wasnt floating, when he does he is unbeatable, its all in the rythem, catching that gear is the trick, but its lights out when it happens.

SCCues
05-15-2007, 06:16 PM
I saw Larry Nevel shoot some draw and follow shots at Q-masters billiards when we asked him to show us a few shots and i've never seen anyone move the cue ball like that. I heard Bill Incardona comment during an Accu-stats match between Larry Nevel and Mika Immonen that if anyone thought they knew someone who could draw the ball further than Larry Nevel they had action. Billy knew most of the top players and he said that Larry Nevel had the most powerful draw stroke he'd ever seen!

instroke75
05-15-2007, 06:59 PM
Dallas West! smooth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MrLucky
05-16-2007, 04:25 AM
Thanks Phil, I was going to delve there, but I waited for you to mention that fact first. Cisero was probably the most feared money player in NYC for most of the 1950's and 1960's. He never backed down from any challenge. Mosconi absolutely refused to play Cisero Murphy under any circumstances, and it was not because he was black, it was because Mosconi knew that Cisero had the ability to beat him.

Unable to play in tournaments, and sometimes not allowed into most pool halls, Cisero Murphy survived day to day by playing in some of the roughest places that you could imagine for the highest and lowest of stakes. There wasn't always a lot of money out there for him to play for. He told me that he would play this one guy for S&H green stamps. lol - that's a true story.

I will always believe that "the powers that were" kept him out of the World Championships because they knew he was going to beat everybody and beat them bad. When they finally let him play, Cisero just proved to everybody what he already knew and believed in his heart: That he was the best.
Cis' would come out to Amityville where I lived and play way into the night with all kinds of characters from Jimmy the painter (who was the local paint contractor) and folks like the local plumber who was Janet Duboise the actress (from TV GoodTimes) husband up to Basil who was a previous European pocket pool champ and at the time owned the only other pool room in town which was located behind his barber shop! :D These were the only folks that had the guts and or the money to play him !

asn130
05-16-2007, 05:19 AM
I saw Larry Nevel shoot some draw and follow shots at Q-masters billiards when we asked him to show us a few shots and i've never seen anyone move the cue ball like that. I heard Bill Incardona comment during an Accu-stats match between Larry Nevel and Mika Immonen that if anyone thought they knew someone who could draw the ball further than Larry Nevel they had action. Billy knew most of the top players and he said that Larry Nevel had the most powerful draw stroke he'd ever seen!

Can't agree more. I was at corfed red's in columbus OH & watched Larry do shots that are impossible. I don't think he's human.

Like this shot. Cueball & 1ball are both frozen to the rail.

42084

bigskyjake
05-16-2007, 06:54 AM
I often wondered about that, Jennie. I've played Keith, and I've seen him play top players, but he never breaks hard. I just assumed he traded power for accuracy. I wouldn't imagine there was any reason Keith couldn't swing harder if he wanted to. I don't think it's his lack of follow-through, but rather a decision not to use a power generating stroke. Perhaps his sidearm setup does not lend itself to power generation; although Medina breaks almost sidearm (like I right cross puch in boxing), and few break harder than he.

Doc


I don't believe it's the side arm stroke that impedes his break, if you've ever seen Jack Madden break he uses a sidearm stroke and breaks incredibly hard



Jake

jay helfert
05-16-2007, 12:53 PM
Credit to Bob Olsen, we left out one very important guy in this discussion. The big man with the even bigger heart, JAY "SWANEE" SWANSON!!!

For such a big man, he had this beautiful delicate stroke, that allowed him near perfect cue ball control. And if he needed to put the whip to it, LOOK OUT, that cue ball would be humming. Probably on a par with Larry Nevel and Mike Massey in what he could do, with one very big difference.

Swanee could shoot these remarkable stroke shots when required in the biggest of money games. Once more, I will make note of the fact that NO ONE played better 9-Ball for super high stakes. I'm not talking $1,000 set. I'm talking $1,000 a game action in the 80's. Swanee could execute amazing shots under the pressure of playing a top player and betting the Moon! He was the guy that got flown in somewhere when someone showed up who was gambling high and beating everyone. Just ask Johhny sometime about who Swanee was.

Sigel (or Larry Hubbart for that matter) wanted no part of Jay Swanson for serious money. Everyone ducked Jay, and San Diego was one place that pool hustlers crossed off their maps.

Remember the great Gabby or how about Jack Hynes. It was Sayonara $$ when they tried gambling with Swanee. A young Earl got the cure too. Swanee may have been the only guy that Parica didn't seek out.

crawfish
05-16-2007, 02:02 PM
Mike used to come in at Hard Times with those long shorts and flip-flops but everyone knew who he was. Luat gave him the 7-ball a few times and Mike robbed Luat. He was running out better than Luat.
Saw Mike go to the final 4 at the world 8-ball in Riviera but lost to Bustamante. Busta did not miss more than 2 balls that Sunday against Mike, Wetch and Archer.
Did Mike ever marry his very pretty gf? She was very pretty and very nice and came with Mike during his short stint here in LA.
Sorry to hear Mike to quit b/c of his shaking. I never saw anyone hit balls as softly as he did.I lost touch with him when he quit playing. I ran into him at a local ranked tourney and had a good laugh with him. He wasn't married at the time. He was certainly capable. I know he's still living in the area, though.

Ktown D
05-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Can't agree more. I was at corfed red's in columbus OH & watched Larry do shots that are impossible. I don't think he's human.

Like this shot. Cueball & 1ball are both frozen to the rail.

42084
I have seen Shannon shoot that shot from there and from the center diamond as well. Shannon will be the first to admit that his stroke is not as strong as Larry's but he can still crank it up better than most.

PoolBum
05-16-2007, 06:51 PM
Prettiest strokes ever -- Luther Lassiter

JAM


:eek:

What'choo been smokin Jam? :D

X Breaker
05-16-2007, 07:22 PM
I like Efren, Bustamenta, Alcano, and Wu's stroke.

Scott Frost, and Tony Cohan also have a very pretty follow through in my opinion.

Richard

VIProfessor
05-16-2007, 08:02 PM
One name that hasn't been mentioned, but who IMHO has one of the prettiest strokes in pool is Jose Garcia, the renowned straight pool (and 9-ball) player out of New Jersey. There is a match on Accu-stats between him and Tony Robles, and it ranks in my mind as one of the most flawless matches I've ever seen. And don't talk about the stroke--to die for!

1-pocket-player
05-16-2007, 09:12 PM
One name that hasn't been mentioned, but who IMHO has one of the prettiest strokes in pool is Jose Garcia, the renowned straight pool (and 9-ball) player out of New Jersey. There is a match on Accu-stats between him and Tony Robles, and it ranks in my mind as one of the most flawless matches I've ever seen. And don't talk about the stroke--to die for!
I agree. That is one of the best Accu-Stats matches I have ever seen. If anyone hasn't seen this match do yourself a favor and pick it up...

-Andy

JoeyInCali
05-16-2007, 09:16 PM
I lost touch with him when he quit playing. I ran into him at a local ranked tourney and had a good laugh with him. He wasn't married at the time. He was certainly capable. I know he's still living in the area, though.
They ought to make an HBO movie about his life.
Matt Damon should play him.

JAM
05-17-2007, 03:49 AM
:eek:

What'choo been smokin Jam? :D

Unfortunately, Marlboro Lights! :o

JAM